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Episode 353: Isaac Fitzgerald
405 Plays2 years ago
Isaac Fitzgerald is the author of Dirtbag, Massachusetts: A Confession (Bloomsbury) and a frequent contributor to The Today Show.
Support: Patreon.com/cnfpod
Social: @CNFPod
Show notes/newsletter: brendanomeara.com
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Transcript
Introduction & Special Offer
00:00:01
Speaker
I've had like 55 coffees today. Hey CNFers, since I have a teensy bit more time on my hands, that might change. If you leave a review over at Apple Podcasts, I'll give you a complimentary edit of a piece of your writing of up to 2,000 words.
Nostalgia & Mixtapes
00:00:19
Speaker
Once the review posts, usually within 24 hours, send me a screenshot of the review to creativenonfictionpodcastatgmail.com and I'll reach back out and we'll get started. Who knows, if you like the experience, you might even want me to help you with something a bit more ambitious. When you make a good mixtape, and again, I'm obviously showing my age here, or burn a good CD, which even now is outdated, hang on, I know how to say it right, make a good playlist, boom, that's, I got us up to date.
Podcast & Guest Introduction
00:00:54
Speaker
Oh hey CNFersits, CNFpod, the creative non-fiction podcast, the show where I speak to badass people about the art and craft of telling true stories. I'm Brendan O'Mara, how's it going? Today's guest is, uh, wait, is this Hank? Is this a typo? Kev, did you
00:01:14
Speaker
Is Isaac Fitzgerald really our guest? Well, shit, I guess so. Isaac Fitzgerald is here because his latest book is a banger. Dirtbag, Massachusetts, published by Bloomsbury. Let me tell you something. I usually donate, raffle, or give away many of the books I receive because it's just too much.
00:01:36
Speaker
I don't like clutter, and I'm something of a clusterfuck, but I'm keeping Dirtbag Massachusetts because it's that good. It's a skeleton key book, and one where I could feel the pulse of my home state, where I grew up, and where I went to college. Where I, no doubt, peaked in high school, and in no way is that depressing. Isaac is the author of the children's book, How to Be a Pirate, Knives and Ink, Chefs and the Stories Behind Their Tattoos,
Isaac's Work & Collaborations
00:02:05
Speaker
Pen and ink tattoos and the stories behind them collaborated with Wendy McNaughton the brilliant illustrator He has an awesome sub stack called walk it off
00:02:20
Speaker
where he literally walks around with someone and interviews them. I'm reading the one right now with Stephanie Fu and it's wonderful. Such a great concept. He's formerly of the Rumpus McSweeney's and is a frequent contributor to the Today Show, doling out book recommendations like Candy at a Parade.
Interview Dynamics
00:02:41
Speaker
Isaac came to play ballman and we were really engaged and something occurred to me during the edit.
00:02:48
Speaker
There were a few moments when I made Isaac laugh, and I found myself smiling and laughing in the edit. My favorite interviews are when there's some laughter, like genuine laughter. Now, you can't really choreograph that, but when it happens, it really is a joy to listen to. You find yourself kind of like, well, in the editing, I kind of find myself leaning towards the monitor, like I'm leaning into it. It's weird. It's an almost involuntary reflex. Pretty cool.
Topics Preview & Newsletter Promotion
00:03:16
Speaker
In this conversation, we talk about collaboration, what he learned from editing Sheryl Strayden, Roxane Gay at the Rumpus, how readers can take meaning from a work and run with it, finding empathy for his parents, and why he prefers to write nonfiction over fiction. Lots of stuff. Great talks and efforts.
00:03:35
Speaker
And one last thing, don't forget to head over to BrendanOmera.com for show notes and to sign up for my up to 11 rage against the algorithm newsletter. Lots of cool stuff, goodies, raffles, happy hours, writing prompts, whatever I'm in the mood for. First of the month, no spam, can't beat it. So here we go. Here we go.
Beard Envy & Tattoos
00:03:58
Speaker
Here's Isaac Fitzgerald Riff.
00:04:11
Speaker
Back when I started the show, my jealousies and resentments were solely rooted in frustrations with writing and so forth. And that has since kind of pivoted to people whose beards I really admire. And I gotta say, I have a lot of beard envy for you, Isaac. I gotta say, great beard. Thank you very much. I am so, I guess not sad to report, but I do
00:04:39
Speaker
like I'm one of those people that like I get different haircuts all the time like I think I really enjoy experimenting with this stuff so I'm sad to say at the moment I did just like basically trim my beard off and I'm rocking like a straight forward mustache but I will tell you I do that probably like once every year
00:04:58
Speaker
And what it does is it reminds me why I have the beard. The more of my face that I see, I'm like, wait, nope, this is a terrible decision. And then I grow the beard back out. So thank you very much. And then know that my beard is growing back as quickly as possible.
00:05:12
Speaker
nice and i think i think to a lot a lot of people who know you and know some of some of your work of course know your your relationship to tattoos and the storytelling capacity of the ink that we put on our bodies and i for one i don't have any i'm sort of i'm like a little gun shy because i'm a bit of an indecisive person so i'm like the permanence of it has kept me
00:05:34
Speaker
from really taking that leap. So maybe for people who are on that on that fence, and maybe me specifically, you know, what can we do to take that leap to start sort of branding ourselves with these things that really tell us who we are in a very permanent way? Yeah, so I'm going to start with a little bit of a surprise, which is personally, at this point, I would say more people like
00:06:00
Speaker
don't I mean, that's probably not statistically true. But I just feel like so many people do have tattoos, that I think it's almost more unique to not have that. And so I, I say to those people out there without tattoos, maybe without an interest in them, or even if you're on the bench, but like solidly on the bench, like, you know, do do what in your heart feels right. And if you don't want a tattoo, that's absolutely okay.
00:06:24
Speaker
Now, to those people who are on the bench and maybe just want to nudge, they know deep down they want to get one and they just want to nudge. For me, the thing to remember is that the tattoo is almost a way of marking yourself at a certain time in your life, and it's a way of remembering your past self. So most times people are like, oh, I don't know if I can do this though, because what if I don't like it in the future?
00:06:49
Speaker
Well, that's okay. You also might look back at some of your pastels in different light in the future, but it's just this way. It's okay if you don't like that tattoo in the future. It's a way of remembering the person you were at that moment, the person who maybe loved that. And to kind of continue playing with that, I think one of the reasons I had so many tattoos is my first tattoo, which let me tell you, I treasured.
00:07:13
Speaker
when I first got it is a very bad tattoo. It's so bad. It's so bad. And I treasured it for about three hours. I won't give you the long story, but you just need to know that at the time I was working maintenance at a hotel. And so I came back to work after getting the
00:07:31
Speaker
looked at it. And I could go into describing it, but like you don't even just just know it was a bad shoulder tattoo in the 90s. It looks a bit like the cover of God's Mac album. I know. I know the design. You know exactly what I mean, right? Exactly. Exactly. Like a circle, sun, maybe with like a Celtic tree of life in there. Who knows? And he just looked at it and he said, Why did you get Spider-Man getting a Spidey set? And in that moment,
00:07:56
Speaker
He changed the tattoo and that's all I can see when I look at it because it does look a lot like Spider-Man. And so I would argue like don't get me wrong. I love tattoos. I love the art form. I love the storytelling behind them. But there's an argument to be made.
00:08:13
Speaker
that basically I just got more and more tattoos to distract from my first horrible one. And so for a man of my age, it kind of feels like, you know, you see those old Subaru's with like 300 bumper stickers on. Like that's how it feels for me. Like getting a new tattoo, I still love it. I do. I just got a new one.
00:08:30
Speaker
while I was on the road. I love marking moments in history. I love remembering stories with them. But for me, it's like I'm already a Subaru covered in old sticker. So of course I can get another one. If you've got a nice pristine car and it's not your cup of tea, that is A-OK.
00:08:46
Speaker
Nice. And you're such a champion of the writing community and books in that nature. And of course, one of your tattoo books, you collaborated with the great illustrator Wendy McNaughton. Wendy McNaughton forever.
00:09:03
Speaker
Yeah, I've never spoken to her, but I've just long admired her work. And given that you're such a very, it seems like a very collaborative person and someone who definitely champions the creative and the writing community in particular, what was that experience of knowing Wendy and collaborating on those two books? Okay, so first off, Wendy McNown, brilliant. She's a genius. I love her. She is a person who
00:09:30
Speaker
When you discuss people, you're like, oh my gosh, this person's so incredible. What I'm so happy to share with you is that she is just as wonderful as you think she is. She is such an extraordinary artist, and I do not want to downplay that at all, but somehow she is even more of a phenomenal human being. I love Wendy so much, and working on pen and ink and knives and ink,
00:09:53
Speaker
And I'll be honest, sometimes I can be a real pain to work with, so I love her patience. But the work she did on those books, and then to go on and watch her success with Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat, to watch what she did during the pandemic, which was basically started a drawing club called Draw Together, which I think really benefited a lot of adults as well, but was made with children in mind, and just getting them to draw on a daily basis was so incredible. But collaboration with her was
00:10:23
Speaker
was kind of, I don't want to say easy because trust me, it wasn't because of me, but it was, it was incredibly fulfilling because of all of her ideas and everything she brings to the table. And what was beautiful about those early books, and it started as a project, it truly just started as a project that we were doing for fun on Tumblr. We had no idea that they were going to turn into books, was, you know, tattoos themselves are art.
00:10:51
Speaker
So we wanted to pay respect to the tattoo artists who were drawing the tattoos, you know? And so, and Nancy as an artist was always so mindful of that. So we would collect the artist's names in the back of the book, et cetera. But then to watch her kind of take art and then make this almost new art with it was something I say about my career in general is I've gotten a lot of front row seats to some incredible, incredible people. Like I worked with Rock James Gay very early on. I worked with Cheryl Straight and Dear Sugar.
00:11:21
Speaker
uh, column very early on. And, and, and Wendy McNaughton is one of those people who I just feel so lucky to have gotten to watch the way that she works and the way that her phenomenal, I know I keep saying phenomenal, phenomenal, but like brilliant, her brilliant brain to see the way it works. Um, so I just feel, feel lucky for that. And then in general, I just want to say a quick note time for such long-winded answers, but collaboration to me is the reason it is so important is like, one,
Writing Process & Inspirations
00:11:51
Speaker
I mean, I'll just start at the beginning. It'll be real quick, but like.
00:11:54
Speaker
Basically, when I was 23, I found myself in San Francisco. I was working at Buca di Beppo, which, if you're not familiar, is like the Olive Garden Boat Wars. Family style Olive Garden. Yeah, it was not a fun... They had one CD that played nine Italian songs, and I swear, I'm almost like a sleeper cell agent. If I hear that's Amore, I just start freaking out. It awakens a beast in me, because it was that CD that played on repeat, and we worked these long trips.
00:12:24
Speaker
To be honest, it was probably one of the best paying jobs I've had in my life because I only had to work 20 hours a week. And at the time it was like post the first.com thing, but like social hadn't taken off yet. So you could actually afford a room in San Francisco.
00:12:37
Speaker
So I was working 20 hours a week. I could make friends and book it a bevel. I didn't know what to do with the rest of my time. And that's when I walked past 826 Valencia, a creative writing, tutoring center. They're all throughout the country now. But that was started by Dave Eggers and then the big Calgary and McSweeney's. But the main thing to know is that it was four kids. But I didn't know that. So I'm walking by and they have this big sign that said, Storytelling and Bookmaking Workshop. And I walked in and there was an open house.
00:13:04
Speaker
And I thought it was going to be for I just I grew up reading. I loved reading. But I until that day, I truly thought writing was like a gift from God. You either had it, or you didn't. Yeah. And so I walked into this place just loving books. But like I journals, I've written some terrible poetry when I was in high school and middle school. But like in general,
00:13:25
Speaker
I just didn't think I had it. I loved books, but I just didn't think I had it. Anyways, we sit down. It becomes very clear very quickly that this is to train adults how to work with kids and to volunteer with the program. I was 23 years old. I've written a kids book now. I love kids. But at the time, I was like, I want to hang out with kids. What am I doing here? But they kept talking. And that's when I noticed on the wall there were these white pieces of paper. They were typed up, but they were covered in handwritten notes. And I raised my hand. I said, what are those?
00:13:55
Speaker
And the person leading the open house basically said, oh, those are pages for manuscripts that all have been published as books. But we put them and we framed them on the wall to show kids that even though writing is a very solo art form, it can be a family member, it can be a volunteer here at the center, it can be an editor, it can be a friend, but somebody can give you feedback that makes your story better.
00:14:21
Speaker
And that was the first time in my life. Like, I remember I was taking notes. I was like, yeah, we should teach eight-year-olds that. But at 23, I was learning it for the first time, that writing is something that is a craft that you can practice and get better at, and that other people can help improve your story. That doesn't mean you have to take all your edits or all your notes, but that's when writing, again, a very solo art form. But I started to see it as the ways in which it can be collaborative. And that was so important to me because
00:14:51
Speaker
editors, friends, like so many, I am not somebody my, my initial vision for writer was like, they lived in a library tower. And they wrote perfect prose. And it came out and they sent it to New York for a book cover. And they made a million dollars. We of course know none of that is true. But I feel so lucky because so many people help the stories that I put into the world.
00:15:16
Speaker
I love how you said a moment ago about how you had a really, a great front row seat to some of the people that you worked with. I believe that would have been at the rumpus with Cheryl Strayed in, uh, in, uh, in Roxanne Gay. So what were some of the, the lessons you learned from being something of a spectator to them? I know it was more collaborative, but they just, the front row seat metaphor, uh, of being a spectator to them. What did they do that really helped you? I mean, listen,
00:15:45
Speaker
This is a story I don't tell often, but it's when when when Cheryl straight took over the deer sugar column. She and I want to be very clear when I say
00:15:56
Speaker
worked with Roxanne or worked with Cheryl. What I'm really saying is like I maybe would call with a suggestion of moving one comma and I put it in, I put it in the CMS. That's what I did. I want to be bad. Now don't get me wrong. I think I improved greatly just from reading their work, from seeing their multiple drafts. Like I think that all sunk in and that was all, like I never went to school for writing, but that, that was like, those were my lessons. That's how I learned. So that was of course incredibly, incredibly helpful.
00:16:26
Speaker
But the story I want to tell about Cheryl, I think if I remember incorrectly, it's a long time ago now, but we published on Thursdays, I think, and it was incredible because she became so popular that basically the site would almost always crash. But we would publish on a Thursday, but I think that meant she sent it in on a Wednesday. And every week, from almost the very beginning, I think the first couple of ones, it was just like, hey, get to know you.
00:16:55
Speaker
telling the community who she was, of course, while keeping it anonymous. But I think it was like the first, like maybe it was her second or third letter.
00:17:06
Speaker
I think there's something about a tiny bird. Anyway, you can you can pick up her book, they actually just published a new decade long version called tiny, beautiful things, you should go get it. It's still one of the books that I hand out to people. But anyways, this is all to say that for 10, or maybe 20 years at that point in my life, I basically hadn't cried since I was a child is what I'm swine. The hard thing for me still to admit, which is why I'm kind of rambling here, but I haven't cried.
00:17:33
Speaker
Um, say for like movies, like movies or music or like a really well done commercial, like in for some weird way, I would allow myself to be emotional then, but I really hadn't cried in, in so long. And I'll never forget reading like her second or third response and just crying, just bawling. And then that became a routine.
00:18:00
Speaker
like every Wednesday, she would send something in, I would read it, I would sit and fall, and then I would put it in the CMS, and that.
00:18:09
Speaker
And so don't get me wrong, I have so many stories of the different ways that collaborating with so many different writers, and that's the beauty. Like I said, I didn't go to school, so almost I got to learn through editing, and I'm so happy that the internet allowed me to do that. And in my very early days, my little knowledge of HTML tagging,
00:18:31
Speaker
gave me this way to really learn about writing in this very personal way. But there's also, it's almost bigger than that. That's why I wanted to share that Cheryl story. Like Cheryl's writing and working with her didn't just help me learn how to be a better writer and to be honest, to be a better a member of a community and a better human. She's so loving and caring. But it really helped me get in touch with my emotions that I was not able to do for a long, long time. And that started a journey, which again, was very slow. I want to be very clear, but like,
00:19:00
Speaker
You know, that's me when I'm probably 26, 27. By 35, I finally get into therapy. And that, you know, long journey of basically being more open to feeling my own emotions, to recognizing myself as a human with these emotions allowed for me to then write dirt bags. So that is just one but incredibly important way that working with so many amazing writers over the course of my career has like
00:19:27
Speaker
Not just better than me as a writer or an artist, but it's better than me as a person. And then real quick, I do just also want to say, like, Dirtbag Massachusetts would not exist without Roxane Gay and Bad Feminist. Like, Bad Feminist was the blue plate collection of essays. A lot of personal stuff in there. Bad Feminist was the blue plate that, like, again, gave me almost permission to think that I could maybe make something like Dirtbag Massachusetts.
00:19:51
Speaker
I love hearing that where there is like a model or that becomes the skeleton key to kind of unlock the project that you're working on and it's great to hear that like that one it was like oh I can I this is you know this this cake mold really really works I'm gonna pour in my own my own batter but that mold is like that is gonna help you know unlock what I've been what maybe you were getting what wanted to get at
00:20:18
Speaker
That's exactly right. And that's such a perfect way to put it. I love that the cake bowl. That's exactly right. And that is I mean, that is why when I talk to to writers, especially to those that are just tackling the craft for the first time, and doesn't matter the age, of course, like everyone's like, what do you recommend?
00:20:38
Speaker
And it's always, and I know this is such a simple basic thing, but it's reading. It's just read, read, read, read, read. And read outside of your comfort zone. Read outside of the genres that you love, or the writers that you love, or the stories that you relate to. Because you will, there will be something in there for you. And you might actually learn how to stretch and dream bigger. And that's something that, that, you know, especially being, you know, having rock fans guidance and seeing the different
00:21:08
Speaker
different ways that she works that has been, like I said, it almost it gave me permission. I mean, you know, I was never like, I was like, I know I can't write that well. And, you know, the stories she have are so completely different than the stories that I have. It's, you know, it's just that there's that there's that humanity there. But that it was when when I read Bad Feminist, again, that would be years and years later that I even started working on Surfact. But that was the first time I was like, okay, wait, maybe I could do something like this.
00:21:38
Speaker
And speaking of dirtbag, I knew I was going to love it because I'm just a long admirer of your work, but I grew up in southeastern Massachusetts, outside of New Bedford, let's say.
Shared Experiences & Universal Connections
00:21:52
Speaker
Oh wow, where were you? Lakeville, which is a cranberry town in a southeastern mass between Fall River, Taunton and New Bedford, kind of right in that little triad. And so I knew I was going to love this book because I suspect that there was going to be
00:22:12
Speaker
a sort of Massachusetts vernacular in Touchstones in this book that I was going to recognize right away. And I remember, like, you know, you were just offhandedly wrote, like, about cumbis, you know, being in Cumberland Farms and all this. And it's just, and also being at Fenway Park and, like, seeing the box seats down below being empty. Like, my dad would tell me to go down low and, like, no one's there, just go down there. And I was always just, like, so scared to go down there because I was going to get thrown out of the ballpark. And I was just,
00:22:41
Speaker
felt like all eyes were on me. And it was one of those things where you had that experience with your dad, like the hundred first games as the lie he would tell so you guys could stay there. And it was just like those touchstones. I related to that so much. Well, thank you. And thank you for reading it just for the record because there's a lot of books out there. So I deeply appreciate that. And just for the record, New Bedford's like where my dad hails from. So I know the area well. I know the area well.
00:23:10
Speaker
Oh, for sure. And I think that gets to a point, too, that I think in memoir, especially, the more specific you can be, you know, whether people in Minnesota reading this book will know what Kumbies is. The fact is, like, the people from Massachusetts, they'll know that little detail just
00:23:27
Speaker
it just lights you up in a way that just it feels so grounded and real and specific. And I wonder for you as a point of craft and a part of writing, how important that degree of specificity is when you're crafting these kind of essays? Oh, 100 percent. And again, this comes back to the like, you know, the only recommendation I have is like read, read, read and read more. And because that as a reader, I know exactly what you're talking about. I love the moment of if it's either an area where you're from or it can just be a place you visited.
00:23:57
Speaker
and all of a sudden the writer's talking about it and you get that little flash of, oh wait, I've been there. I know what they're talking about. I have my own memories and my own images that I'm almost putting in, and that's why writing, this is a little bit of a tangent, but I would argue it's almost, it's obviously a wonderful art, but it's also, in my opinion, one of our best formed technologies, and that's why I truly believe.
00:24:22
Speaker
A.I. or any of this other stuff that's happening will never totally, you know, don't get me wrong, e-books are great and they're great for travel if you want to bring a lot of books with you, etc. And I know some people prefer them, but I'm always going to be a big believer in just like there's no better technology than the word on the page and basically a human brain, because that's what, you know, that's what writing is. One person creates it, but then another person just takes those words in and creates their own images and their own version of the story in their own head. And it happens so quickly. And, you know, at the speed of light, basically,
00:24:52
Speaker
And that's just an incredible, incredible thing that we have. So anyways, that's just like my little tangent on technology and why I love it. But it's important to keep reading so that, you know, again, you learn these different things. And one thing I learned was like, oh, I love that exact jolt that you were just talking about, that you just perfectly described. So I knew when I was writing this book, I wanted to put those things in there. Add little moments for either a reader from New England or a reader from a certain part of Massachusetts that they would recognize it and they would get that jolt.
00:25:21
Speaker
And then the next thing that's so important about it, I think especially when I was an early writer, like I tried to make, you know, you want to make something universal. So you're like, oh, the way to do this is to make it as broad as possible. And what you learn through practice and through reading, and luckily, I've had many other friends in my life who are writers who have given me
00:25:43
Speaker
great edits and great recommendations, you recognize actually the universal is in the specific. If you write something that's so broad it's for everyone, it's going to be bland. It's going to be boring. But if you write something that's very concise, very personal, very, you know, of a certain area or of something that is what will make it universal. And again, I would argue that Roxanne, Cheryl, I mean, so many writers that I absolutely love.
00:26:11
Speaker
the collective works of Brice de Gea Pancake is a story collection that I absolutely love and he writes about Virginia and West Virginia. So specifically, when I read that, my dad gave me that book when I was, to be honest, far too young, but I deeply appreciate that he did. When I read that book, I was living in rural Massachusetts. I'd never been farther south than I think DC. I'd never been to Virginia or West Virginia.
00:26:36
Speaker
But the stories that he told were so specific, but I could relate to them in my own way up there in rural Massachusetts in this way. So it's a lesson that I'm constantly learning. But again, the way the universalism is specific, the way to connect with a human, even if they've never been to your part of the country or where you're writing about, is to be as specific as possible. And they will be like, maybe they don't know what companies is,
00:27:01
Speaker
But they have their version of whatever that kind of local 7-Eleven is. And they're like, oh, I know what he's talking about. And they kind of plug in that. And that's why, just to end it, like, Dirtbag, Massachusetts. For a little while, there was discussion. I mean, and I want to be clear. This is my editor.
00:27:17
Speaker
always loved dirtbag Massachusetts title. Her name is Nancy Miller. She's wonderful. This book wouldn't exist without her. But she always was like, No, that's the title. But I I'm saying I had a little bit I was like, Wait, is that gonna like, are people only from Massachusetts gonna think this book is for them? Like, are should I should we I was like, Oh, maybe it could be dirtbag mass. That that used to be the, you know, now it's ma but it used to be the shortened abbreviation from Massachusetts, but it could also be like, a mass like in church, maybe that could be fun.
00:27:44
Speaker
And I'm really happy that Nancy was like, no, stick to Dirtbag, Massachusetts, because even somebody that doesn't live in Massachusetts, or maybe never even been to Massachusetts, is going to have their own relatable thing in their state or where they're from. And I'm so glad that she did that, because the title's amazing. And again, shout out Jason Diamond gave me the title. I did not come up with that title. He came up with that title. And I can tell that story if you want.
00:28:08
Speaker
to, again, the universals and the specifics. I'm so glad we kept it with Massachusetts, because I think even people that haven't been to Massachusetts haven't joined the book.
00:28:17
Speaker
Yeah I think you know getting that title I think is a great little story because you know you you spent most of your time in North Central Massachusetts growing up in Athol and I guess the gag was going to be like Asshole Massachusetts would have been you know right a tongue-in-cheek funny title but you couldn't throw that on a book cover so is so then you know your pal and colleague comes up with their back
00:28:40
Speaker
And he did it so fast. And it's hilarious, because I'm not joking. We were going to do a book event for him in Boston, and we ended up staying at this kind of cruddy motel in the shadow of Fenway.
Book Focus & Writing Timing
00:28:52
Speaker
So it couldn't have been more of a moment that was almost telling the future. But I was like, yeah, you can't call a book at Old Massachusetts, it turns out. And he didn't give a beat. He was like, dirtbag Massachusetts.
00:29:02
Speaker
And this is years and years and years ago. He just called it Turbac, Massachusetts. And then the second he said it, I feel like I figured out parts of the book in that moment that I hadn't even realized that I was going to try and tackle just because, I mean, he really nailed it. It's a perfect title.
00:29:17
Speaker
And I heard you say, you know, had you written this book at 25, you know, your parents would have been more the villains in your story. And then going through the therapy that you've been so candid about and that you acknowledge in the book and the acknowledgements and through other conversations, it wasn't until you were 35 that the nuance of their relationship and your relationship to them and your growing up
00:29:40
Speaker
It allowed you to feel more ready to approach this in a more, I guess, mature way. So at 35, when did you realize you were ready to take this on? Well, that's another just really, really lovely story that, again, includes credit to Nancy Miller, my editor at Bloomsbury. Basically, again, I was like, okay, so I've got to use the metaphor you just said, like, I've got my cake molds. I know I could do a collection of essays.
00:30:07
Speaker
And I wanted to, much like Roxanne, to kind of tackle some pop culture stuff, but then with like a sprinkling of the personal. That was what I set out to do. And so I actually, I had a wonderful agent, Charlotte Chidi. She has a close relationship with Nancy Miller. So I sold that book on proposal. And then it took me a long time to even start working on it. I published some essays online that I knew would be in there, but I just, I wasn't sitting down to get the work done. And then when I would,
00:30:38
Speaker
All of a sudden, I'd be like, OK, I'm going to write about this pop culture thing. And the best examples in the book that are still in there is the whole study essay or the Fight Club essay. OK, I'm going to take something in my life in pop culture and then write through the personal perspective on it. And then what would happen is I'd write about my childhood for paragraphs and paragraphs. And I kept saying that I wasn't going to do that. God's honest truth. If you met me in my 20s, I would tell you the story of my childhood. But then I'd be like, no, I'm never going to write about it, whatever.
00:31:08
Speaker
you know, I would and clearly what deep, deep down, I desperately wanted to, but I couldn't admit that to other people or even myself yet. And so eventually after like 18 months, I called Nancy Miller and I was just like, I think this might be more about my childhood than I thought. And she was like, I've been waiting 18 months for you to figure that out. But but but it was like, that was the moment
00:31:35
Speaker
And, uh, and I wish I could tell you that, like, so don't get me wrong, that was like a very, okay, I can do this and I'm going to do this moment. But then what I need to tell you is that years went by and, and with, with the help of my agent Meredith Kapil Simonoff and many other people like contributed and gave feedback and, and love, uh, to this project and time and effort to this project, it got to a place.
00:32:01
Speaker
that, that where it exists in the world now and today, but I was still unwilling to let it go. And it was, it was people like Meredith and Nancy and, and who basically were like, Hey, you, you gotta let go of this. Like it's ready to go. And I, so to answer your question, like there was no perfect moment where I was like, I'm ready for this to go out to the world. It's clear to me that I was still scared to put it out. And to be honest, it's left to my own volition, but I'd probably still be tinkering away at it.
00:32:26
Speaker
But I'm so glad that people in my life who are just like, hey, no, let's go. It's ready to be out there in the world. And then what I can tell you on now, which is, you know, it doesn't give away the plot of the book, but it was important to me that the end of the book was not a wrapped up ending. I wanted it to feel very continuous, but it doesn't spoil the book for me to say to you now, like, what's lovely about that? I'm so happy for it. If I wrote it at 25, it would have been much angrier, would have been much more poorly written, to be honest.
00:32:56
Speaker
And who knows how I feel about dirt back when I'm 45, right? But the conversations my parents are kind of almost an unsung hero of this year, they the conversations that I've had with them, especially with my mother coming out of this book have been so, so important. And I try not to go into detail on that out of respect for her and the conversations that we're having. But like, the book, in a way,
00:33:23
Speaker
worked on almost the most important level, which is this very personal, tiny, familial level, and has opened up some conversations that I'm really, really, really grateful for. And so that's been this lovely, like, to be honest, it's out in the world now, so there's nothing I can do about, but I still don't know if I'm ready
00:33:46
Speaker
to put those stories out there. But a lot of people helped me get it out there, and now I'm so grateful for it because I have these moments with my parents that are so, so important that wouldn't have existed without the book. I would have kind of kept not being able to talk about these important issues.
00:34:05
Speaker
Yeah, and it's one of those deals, too, that it had you maybe even waited till you were 45 and got an even more distance from the trauma and childhood that it would be a wholly different book with its own different point of view and world view. But at the same time, you know, there is a race against the clock. You know, our parents are always getting older, and now, because you started at 35 and now you're 39,
00:34:30
Speaker
It's like you're having, you're able to still have that conversation and get some degree of, maybe you'll never get closure, but at least you'll get something close to it. And it was because you were able to start, you know, in this window. And that in and of itself, I guess, is a kind of gift, I think. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this is, now we're getting into the, you can maybe tell I spent 10 years in California, a little bit of the woo woo, but I am a big believer in like things happen at the right pace, you know, eventually.
00:35:00
Speaker
And, you know, that's something I would say to writers everywhere. I'm a big believer in, like, of course, like, don't get me wrong. I love 22-year-olds. I can step up to bat and not get out of the park. You know, to get back to my, like, I thought it was a gift from God. Don't get me wrong. I think there are people who have an innate talent and are just so brilliant that I'm lucky enough to know some people like that.
00:35:24
Speaker
So I'm all for the 22 year olds. I get up to the plate and just knocked it out of the park. But like, for me, it's like, you can have your debut in your 30s. You can have your debut in your 40s. You can have your debut in your 70s. I mean, one of my favorite books of last year. Oh, come on, Fitzgerald. Remember, give me one second. I'm, I'm just gonna look it up so that I can, I can say the name as well as the title Lessons in Chemistry by Bonnie Garmus.
00:35:49
Speaker
was one of my favorite books of last year. It's absolutely phenomenal fiction book, if you haven't read it. And it was her debut. And I'm not going to guess at Bonnie's age, but I you know, I think it's she took her time with it. And it is a phenomenal book because of that. And so I'm a big believer just like, if you feel you have a story to tell, almost like a tattoo review, if you're there, you're never too old for it. If you want to do it, you can just you can just get it done.
00:36:16
Speaker
Yeah, it's someone who probably wasn't, you know, poisoned by the toxicity that comes from the comparison to like those 30 under 30 lists and like those things that I feel like in a way that they give 30 people agency and then 30,000 people like are running for the hills. It is and it's hard. It's hard. Trust me, it's hard.
00:36:41
Speaker
That's not just writing, right? That is a life lesson. It is hard not to look over at the neighbor's fence and maybe feel jealous if they've got the new car in the driveway or X, Y and Z. And I think one of the most important lessons, not just in being an artist of any kind, but in trying, you know,
00:37:00
Speaker
trying to get the most joy that we can out of this gift that is life. And again, that's not, it cannot always be joyful. That's something that therapy has definitely taught me and that's something I'm still working on to this day. It's important to feel those moments of sadness and jealousy and heartbreak. And that is all part of, again, this phenomenal gift that is life. But if you're looking to just get a little bit more spring in your stuff, it really helps to look at what you have and try to be grateful for that.
00:37:30
Speaker
and not look at the bull next to you and see how much that person has. And that, you know, unless it's that they have a lot less and you're going to try and help them out. But that is kind of a guiding philosophy that I try and carry with me in life.
00:37:44
Speaker
And did you give maybe any thought to the fact that when you started writing these essays, I'm going to make something of an assumption that you were roughly the same age as your parents when they had you or when you were a young kid. My father had me when he was 35. Dead on.
00:38:06
Speaker
Yes. So as you're writing that sort of in that were you trying to think like oh my God like I'm at this age and they had me and then we were going through this and what degree of maybe empathy did you run with as you were writing this at the same age as essentially you know your parents were when you were experiencing such a you know a rotten time.
Family Reflections & Community Support
00:38:30
Speaker
Yeah. No. So again my father was 35 and my mother was 30.
00:38:35
Speaker
It was, it was so important to me. And I, to be honest, I think that that is one of the factors of everything that we're talking about is feeling this permission to be able to write these stories. Part of it was again, when I was 25, it would have just been like, they are the worst and they messed up and I'm so mad. And I'm so happy that at 35, all of a sudden I was looking around and let's not forget the first line of the book. Again, it's not a spoiler. My parents were married when they had me just to get them people.
00:39:01
Speaker
They were 30 and 35. They had already had lives. They had children. I was looking around. I'm 35 years old, living paycheck to paycheck. Absolutely no structure. I'd never been married. I was like, I can barely keep it together. These are people who had very, very busy, full lives. Of course, when that stops feeling like it's working, there's going to be a lot of fallout around that.
00:39:31
Speaker
And so that what you're talking about and what you're touching on such important part, it allowed me to shift my perspective, not just on my own childhood, but on them. And I think that's an important part of growing up. This is something I talk about a lot. I mean, it works two ways. The first thing that I'll start with, because you don't want just just to be like, hey, and let's brush everything under the rug. That's important, too. And clearly, the point to me isn't like I say in the book, like I took some of the worst experience of their lives.
00:39:58
Speaker
20 years later, I publish it. But when you're a kid, your house is your whole world. When you're eight years old, a year is one eighth of your life. That's a very long time. Right? Yeah. For my parents, they were having a rough seven years. But at 30 and 35, that feels a lot different. Right. So I understand that for them, this was a hard time. I don't want to belittle their experience of it either.
00:40:27
Speaker
But it was part of what was already a very long life. Whereas for me, at eight, it was everything. And I think that's part of why it feels so big. And I think, you know, this is just, I'm not just talking about my own experience here. I'm talking about for many of us. This is why we have childhoods that can feel so hard or traumatic or difficult. And then sometimes we talk to older members in our family and they're kind of like, whatever. Because they forget about that shift in perspective.
00:40:55
Speaker
So I think it's I just wanted to start there and just honor that and acknowledge that, that I think, especially when you're young, those years can feel like they're forever. And when you're older, it's like, okay, yeah, 30 to 35 or 35 to 40 or whatever, that was really tough. But we got through it and we kept going and you know, it's part of a longer story. So that's, I think that's why those years can weigh so heavily on one, you know, then you grow up and you look back at your child and you're like, Oh, that was just a
00:41:23
Speaker
an eternity of very difficult difficult times. But the other thing that happens then you grow up and that's when your perspective can shift. So I want to honor that while at the same time saying that's what happened for me. I'm now 39 and I can look back and I could say I get you know they were going out into the world they were having hardships you know
00:41:42
Speaker
finding jobs, finding places to live. They were actually, you know, the incredible part of the story is like, I say that this is a book about my family exploding apart, but then coming back together in this kind of new way. They stuck it out. At any time, either of them could have fled to the hills, but they really, really did their best and worked their hardest. And as I got older, I was able to acknowledge that sacrifice that they were making and recognize that while they weren't perfect parents,
00:42:11
Speaker
And while they made some very terrible decisions and had some difficult actions, I was able to honor that they themselves were obviously going through incredible hardship and incredible struggles. And the world wasn't treating them very well either. And once I was able to make space for that, it made so much more of the book click into place for me.
00:42:32
Speaker
Oh yeah, and not even just the world or anything supporting, being unsupportive. It was even close family. Your mother's parents were, as you wrote, just about as cold and hard as granite. And the people who did give you some degree of support, they were far away in New Bedford, but couldn't afford to do so.
00:42:55
Speaker
those structures that a family needs to rely on in tough times weren't there for you and your folks. And that just makes it all the more difficult. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and that's, again, one could say that, you know, not to be an armchair therapist here, but one can say that that is why I have this love of community. Because I watch what happens when you don't have that support. And I watch that kind of happen to my parents. Whereas, you know, this is
00:43:22
Speaker
If you read the book, it starts when we lived in Boston, and I was, they're part of this wonderful group called the Catholic Worker, which is basically, I would argue almost, I mean, not argue, they would, you know, it's basically a socialist organization that really paid attention to, you know, help the poor and less with the grandiosity and the, you know, Vatican.
00:43:47
Speaker
And we were very lucky to be a part of that organization. And we grew up in an unhoused shelter, or I grew up in an unhoused shelter. That on paper, my chat, those should be the worst years of my life. On paper, that's so difficult. And what my parents were dealing with during that time was so difficult. And they were working so hard to pull themselves out of that situation.
00:44:06
Speaker
again with this loving support but that's why that those are actually the happiest years my childhood and it's because they have that community they have this organization that was trying to lift them up that was trying to help them and that and made them feel wonderful because they could turn around and help other people and i saw how that really works and then i saw what it is when you're actually alone and you don't have the support of loved ones or those around you and i think that's why i've become it became very important to me in my life to be part of communities and part of
00:44:35
Speaker
you know, groups. Yeah, it's a little phrase. I actually I lifted it to be to be clear from the instructions. Give me one second. I just want to make sure I'm saying everything right here. Sure. The Instructions by Adam Levin is this wonderful book that I love that McSweeney's put out in 2010. But he has this phrase in it that we damage we, which I think is very important. And I love it as its own thing. But I almost I took it and changed it a little bit, which is I have the same we lift we
00:45:04
Speaker
And I think it's so important to remember that you can really come together and help people out and build community. And having watched my parents go through this kind of isolation from their family, I think is what made that important to me. And eventually brings me to this place of like, wait, I want to make sure that our family doesn't become like that. This next generation doesn't become like that as well.
00:45:27
Speaker
And in terms of the the narration of the book, too, there are probably any number of devices or ways you
Nonfiction Writing Approach
00:45:36
Speaker
could have approached it. Like as a kid, you could have maybe written it from a kid point of view or, you know, and as you grow up, you know, the point of view kind of changes, the language changes. Was that ever on the table for you to possibly write, write like in the headspace of whatever age you were along the way? No, listen, this is this is an interesting
00:45:55
Speaker
I sometimes also get asked, are you going to write fiction? And to be clear, let's not forget, I said I was never going to write about my childhood, and here we are. So who knows what will change in the future. But for me, what I love about nonfiction is it really is just putting the paper, the things you remember. And I was very lucky in that.
00:46:17
Speaker
I have benefited from technology in so many different ways. And one of them is just like, I have a Gmail account that goes back years and years and years so I could look things up. And there's all these different ways of kind of recording our lives now. So I have all this other data basically to pull from. And I found that to be incredibly helpful. That's why I love nonfiction. So I don't think there was a way I could have written
00:46:41
Speaker
from the voice of a child. And I'm not trying to be down on myself here. I'm very happy with what the book is. But like, I don't really have the imagination for it. And the example that I use for that is a lot of my friends were loving and read the book and said, hey, you can leave my name as is. And you can tell who they are, because they're very good names. And then there are certain friends in my life who like, you know, because of work stuff or whatever, or, you know, people who I wasn't in touch with. So I was like, I need to change these names.
00:47:11
Speaker
You can be, you can tell, you can tell who those are. And that's because I don't have the, like literally there are great names in there. To use an example, Jonathan Ritzman is my first, my first roommate in boarding school. I get a scholarship and I get to go to boarding school. I couldn't make up Jonathan Ritzman and prefer, you know, that's just so perfect. That's so good. But there's another friend who I absolutely love. He adores the book. He's from it. He basically wrote me this love letter where he was like, he perfectly captured our childhood.
00:47:40
Speaker
But he works in the US Army. So he doesn't need it. He doesn't need it out there, some of the stuff we're doing when we're kids, you know? And you can tell. You can tell. I'm not going to say his name, right? But like, you can just tell these different, you know, when there's a Jonathan Richmond, that's because I don't have the imagination. Otherwise, I'm like, I don't know, John, well, he can't say Jonathan. What about Tom? And that's like that, like the name is also flat. So that's anyways, it's a very long way of saying my imagination is
00:48:08
Speaker
is not the best. And that's why I love nonfiction. And again, it's from reading other nonfiction writers that I realized this was something I could pursue because for me, it's about getting the words on the page, the memory on the page, the moment on the page, the scene on the page. And then you just read it over and over and over again. And that's what I do. And then again, with the help of copy editors and other like, I don't, I'm not skilled
00:48:34
Speaker
in grammar. I have what I call progressive views on grammar, which is a very fancy way of saying, I know I'm not great at grammar. But I can I have a sense of rhythm. So I'll just read it out loud over and over again. And that's my process. That's how I edit. And then I hand it over to somebody who then is like, Oh, yeah, all these comments are in the wrong place. And they make it even better.
00:48:55
Speaker
Well, speaking of rhythm, I really love how the story progresses in these little chunklets and fragments. I love reading books like that. To me, there are like rungs on a ladder, and I just feel like it's approachable, and I feel like I'm getting somewhere. And for you, how did that storytelling, that way of writing convey what you were after in this book?
00:49:24
Speaker
So for me that this is something I can I can say and with pride that this is how I always envisioned this book even when I knew it wasn't when I didn't think it was going to be about my childhood. I always knew like don't get me wrong. All readers are fantastic and I'm happy for every single one. There you know the person that's going to read 20 books a year or buy 20 you know that's it's wonderful to have them but I knew I wanted to make a book
00:49:51
Speaker
for maybe the person that wasn't reading 20 books. I maybe the my perfect vision for this book, and I can't wait for the paperback to come out for this is like some former version some 14 year old me somewhere who has it stuff folded up beaten up and stuff in their back pocket. That is like the real vision for me. I want to reach
00:50:13
Speaker
The reader who made, like again, the kid who's maybe not reading that many books a year, who sees themselves reflected in these pages, that was so, so important to me. And I knew the way to do that is not to, and again, I want to be very clear, I love the incredible dense books and especially the feeling that you get when you finish one. But I knew I wanted to make something that felt more like a mixed page.
00:50:37
Speaker
I want, don't get me wrong, like when you make a good mixtape, and again, I'm obviously showing my age here, or burn a good CD, which even now is outdated. Hang on. I know, I know how to say it, right? Make a good playlist. Boom. That's, I got, I got us up to date. But for me, it was making, make a good mixtape. You still want an overarching, right? The same, you know, that the, one of the tricks of the book is the first essay and the last essay. I wrote that as one big, long essay, and then we just cut it in the middle.
00:51:05
Speaker
and put the first half of the front and the last half of the back. You still want to have this overarching theme throughout it.
00:51:13
Speaker
Well, we experienced some technical difficulties there. Isaac dropped out. Fear not. He came back. It was wonderful. But audio is just a little bit different. So I just want to acknowledge that that happened. OK, so we're going to continue with this mixtape metaphor. All right. Or the Spotify playlist metaphor for all you Gen Zers out there in your in your Internet's. OK, that's enough.
00:51:41
Speaker
Yeah, overarchingly cohesive, but then you still listen to the same, you know, you can still pick it up and put it down. You can listen to that one song by that one band, love it, put it down, come back to it later, pick it up and listen to that next song. So that's, I wanted each essay to be a standalone essay that worked on its own, and then I wanted an overarching
00:52:02
Speaker
overarching story. And again, just to keep shouting out and then many people in my life, both friends and of course editors and my agent, many people went over it to basically be like, hey, you've got this story in two of your songs here. So we got to take it, you know, like what happened is I kind of ended up repeating myself, but that's the, like that is very much like kind of get it all on the page and then you cut, cut, cut. And that is how I was able to, you know, basically form this like,
00:52:30
Speaker
feeling of like, again, a kid can read one essay and stuff in their pocket and not come back to the book for a month, but then they can pick it right back up again, they'll feel good. But also, if you sit down and you read it in one sitting, you will find these themes that are throughout.
00:52:44
Speaker
Yeah, and you also were, I believe, starting, talking about how you bifurcated that, the opening essay, well, the essay that turned into family stories and then my story. And the first half of that, too, to me, it reads a little light, a little whimsical. And then by the time you get to the end, there is a turn where it gets bleak and dark.
00:53:13
Speaker
And it's I really think it's a wonderful bookend, you know, for me, for me as a reader experience. And I went back and read both of those essays just independent, you know, ahead of this conversation as well. And having read the whole thing and then reading them back to back was I know it was enlightening. It was a really cool experience. Well, I mean, one, thank you so much for saying that. And two, that is exactly I'm so glad to hear you say that because that was kind of what I was going for is like in the beginning.
00:53:41
Speaker
You know, I open it with this line that I've been using as a joke to deflect about this for so long. And that is what that first line is. And that's why I wanted this first essay to, like you said, almost feel light and, you know, hey, it's okay. And trying to, you know, basically what I did for so long in my life, which is just say, hey, this is okay. It's okay. It's okay. And then I wanted to almost reward the reader that made it to the end by having that same moment that I kind of had when I got older, which was like, wait, no, it's not.
00:54:10
Speaker
I know this is going to sound very trite, but it's okay that it wasn't okay. That kind of acceptance, which again comes with this darker thing. It's interesting because you put a book out there, people have feelings. I have heard from more than one reader. For me, it's so wonderful to hear you say that it felt like a payoff because that is what I was going for. But I have heard from more than one reader who was a little bit like,
00:54:34
Speaker
Yeah, and then in the end, I actually, oh, this is all really dark and bad, but I hadn't been feeling a lot of sympathy for you because I hadn't gotten to that point. So they almost were like, you held it for too long. But again, that's the beauty of a book is people get to have their own experiences with it and their own interactions with it and come away with their own things.
00:54:53
Speaker
And so there's been more than one person that's like, no, I think you should have left that in the front, because then I would have felt a lot more sympathy for you throughout. But I personally, that was the piece of art that I wanted to make, and it feels really good when a reader says to me, oh, and then you get to that last one, and it felt like it got punched, and it helps all these other pieces that kind of felt all over the place click together. And that's what I was really going for.
Reader Interpretations & Intentional Omissions
00:55:14
Speaker
Yeah, and speaking of a real click together moment, there was, and this is kind of a spoilery thing, and I'll put spoilers at the top of the show, but there's this moment in the Armory chapter where you're on set for an adult film and you're told to choke
00:55:33
Speaker
one of the actors and she said, you could have gone harder, it's fine. And then by the time we get to the end, there's the moment of the sheer anger bubbling over and the violence that you show towards your mother where you had her by the neck.
00:55:50
Speaker
And to me, that was like an echoing moment. And in the Armory chapter, of course, you're older and that episode would have happened as a kid with your mom, and then you have that moment on set. You know, what was, you know, in that moment, was there an echo going on in your head when you experienced that? Brendan, this is 100% exactly what I'm talking about. And this is, I'm so glad that we're having this, like,
00:56:19
Speaker
kind of really in depth and textural. And I'm glad you'll say spoilers, but like it's it's it doesn't actually spoil that much of the book. And I do I do I do enjoy these conversations where you can say like you can tell somebody who's really read the book and put a lot of thought into it, Brendan. So I just want to say thank you.
00:56:36
Speaker
But I'm so glad we're having this conversation because this is exactly a moment that that that illustrates what I was just talking about, which is I can honestly say to you, I had not put those two moments together in my head at all. You saying that you just spotted an echo that like I'm getting a little bit of chills because of course there's a relationship there.
00:56:56
Speaker
But I'm telling you, those are two very separate memories for me. And I, in no way was putting those moments up to mirror each other. So that's, and that's the beauty of putting something like this out is you have your own moments where you're going for an echo or a through line or a thread and you're hoping that the reader is making these connections. But then what you, what you get, and this is why writing is so wonderful because it's a collaborative art form. There is the writer and then there's the reader. And so I put this stuff out into the world and then somebody's,
00:57:25
Speaker
in a totally different place, sees this mirroring that is clear, and it is there. And you are absolutely right. But I did not even realize that was there. Ooh, sorry. That just gave you tingles. I mean, to answer your question, I definitely will have something to talk to my therapist about. But no, I want to be clear that was not intentional. But of course, with those two moments in the book, they are clearly connected.
00:57:55
Speaker
But I'm telling you honestly and openly that that was not a thought that I had had. So thank you for spotting it. Yeah, of course. That does go to when you put it down on paper, it becomes an experience for you and then eventually you release this butterfly out into the world and then it becomes what anyone else can make of it. And nobody's interpretation is wrong, but it's just like you had your experience and now it's yours.
00:58:24
Speaker
And that's what I mean, I've been on the road and I'm really lucky that I got to be on the road for this book as long as I was able to. It's basically, you know, going out and back. It wasn't continuous, but basically for six months. And it's my favorite part is just when people say something to me where I clearly can, you know, it's that, that's part of the collaboration. I see what they're bringing to the book and what their
00:58:49
Speaker
you know, almost not just getting from it, but like creating in their own mind as they read it. And that's, it's just something I'm very obsessed with. And it's my favorite part of Torin is getting to hear all these different people kind of tell me what the book is to them, because I know what it is to me, but exactly what you're talking about, when you put it out into the world, you handed somebody else, it in a way becomes theirs. And then, like I said, and also in a way they can tell you things about yourself you didn't even recognize.
00:59:19
Speaker
Sorry, I'm just going to keep saying that you just blew my mind a little bit, but you just blew my mind a little bit. I also love that, for one thing, when writers take on memoir, oftentimes they can't help themselves from talking about how they became a writer in a memoir.
00:59:36
Speaker
And it's a pet peeve of mine in memoirs. And I love that you don't talk about how you got to BuzzFeed, Rumpus, McSweeney's, and so forth. And you truly root it in childhood experiences and how those ripple through your young adulthood.
00:59:57
Speaker
And I just wanted to get a sense of that decision that you were making to leave that stuff out, because we know it happened, but we don't necessarily need to see those building blocks of the writer Isaac Fitzgerald would become. No, you're absolutely – because to be honest to me, I'm like, who cares? Right. I think a lot of us have had these –
01:00:21
Speaker
difficult and hard and arduous childhoods. And even if maybe overall it was a great childhood, you're still going to have those moments where you can really relate to something that's going through a difficult time as a child. We all know what that feels like. So again, that gets to this, you know, you want to make stories that can really resonate with a bunch of people. Now, don't get me wrong. I know there's also a lot of people who like to tell stories.
01:00:45
Speaker
and maybe want to figure out their own path in writing. But for me, I've always known that's gonna come out in talking about the book, right? I knew I was gonna talk about that 826 story that I just shared with you in the papers. That doesn't need to be on the page in this particular book. That can be just something that I talk about. And so that, it really starts with this one, this idea of who cares. But I wanna give myself a little more credit than that too, which is, I knew,
01:01:14
Speaker
When I started, there was room for that, because again, I didn't know what this book was going to be. But like I said, when I called Nancy Miller and I was like, hey, this is going to be more about my childhood than I maybe thought it was, that's when I realized that I wanted to honor that story and not try to make this a story about everything.
01:01:31
Speaker
And that gets, again, down almost where it's funny that we're kind of echoing as we have this conversation, because we're talking about the same things almost over and over again. For me, that's part of my craft is getting it all on the page and then cutting, cutting, cutting, cutting, cutting. And it was very clear to me early on, once I realized that this was going to be about my childhood, that there didn't need to be this, like, and then this is how I became.
01:01:53
Speaker
a writer, this is how I got to where I am today. I'm not writing, you know, I'm not in my 80s and I'm not writing my memoirs a la some general who was like, and I'm going to tell you every single step of the way, everything that happened. For me, I knew that I wanted this to be a little diamond of a book.
01:02:09
Speaker
And these essays were going to be about these certain themes and these certain subjects. But we didn't need to have the like, and then here's how I got to a place where I was able to write this book. The next thing that was important to me for that was, again, this ending that we've talked about. And this is not a spoiler, but it is just like I wanted it to feel open-ended. And that's sometimes the beauty of reading a memoir is you
01:02:30
Speaker
I mean, you know, you never know, but there's a general feeling of, okay, at least I know this person's all right, because they've gotten to the place where they can at least make this. Again, that doesn't mean they're all right in all things, but you know, you know, something not, you know, some incredibly difficult things can happen, but not like some of the worst things that can happen because you're holding the book. So, so the reader already knows that. So in my way, I just wanted to have that open-endedness and I didn't need to button everything up. I didn't need to be like, and here's where I am now. It was more about where the family is.
01:02:59
Speaker
And that at the time of the writing was a very open-ended, very, there's no happily ever after here question. And I wanted to honor that and have that feel. And then the last thing I'm going to say is, again, I try, I do my best to hold space for all different forms of writing.
01:03:16
Speaker
But for myself personally, in the essay, I want you to know I'm always thinking about trying to be entertained. That's why I put humor in there. I really want the reader to feel entertained. I love writing. I love it as an art form. But for me, I love books that entertain. And sometimes that doesn't mean being funny. It means, like you said, being hard or difficult.
01:03:37
Speaker
And for me, essays that I didn't want to write, and I hope that other people can do them probably better than I could, but I knew I didn't want to have any essays that were too self-congratulatory.
01:03:48
Speaker
I don't think the reader is going to be entertained by this essay that's kind of like, look at what a good person I am. You know, you're going to be entertained by grappling. And so it's funny, I wrote an essay for when this book came out, and I'm sorry that all my answers took so long. But I wrote an essay for when I came out. It was published by Esquire a week before publication. It was called, The Worlds Need Uncles Too.
01:04:12
Speaker
And it is, it walks the line of, it basically talks about how for my friends or for my siblings, I'm trying to be in their children's lives. I've chosen not to be a father, but I would like to be a very good uncle. And not just my family relatives, but again, like I said, to friends, et cetera.
01:04:30
Speaker
And, and I, as I was writing it, I realized, I was like, Oh, I am bumping up against, I really need to be careful. This kind of has turned me into those like, and look at what a good guy I am. Essay. I never wanted to. So, so there's a line in there and I ran it by the family members who, who was important that I run it by them. But, um, you know, I talked about watching my kids and so for paragraphs and paragraphs you're going through this, like, okay, this seems like a pretty fun guy who likes to hang out with the kids in his life. All right, fair enough.
01:04:58
Speaker
And then I have a line where it really turns. And it was important to me to put that line in there and keep there, which is feeling a real rage at a nephew and niece of mine. And the ways that that kind of helped me understand my parents and the difficulties that they sometimes had. And again, I'm just even talking about it. I'm probably not being that eloquent because it's a very difficult thing to admit and to have. But for me, without that line, that changes the whole essay. And again, it's just a couple of lines. But it's so important to have it in there because for me,
01:05:28
Speaker
I think a reader can be entertained by humor, of course, but they can also be entertained when they see somebody really being open and honest and maybe can admit that they've had those feelings too.
01:05:38
Speaker
And that's where an essay instead of just like, look at how wonderful I can, can I think really connect with a reader when, you know, not to, I mean, they're back. Massachusetts is called confessional when you're actually confessing something. And when you're actually confessing something, you don't go to the priest to talk about all the things you did. Great. You go to the priest to talk about all the ways you fucked up and then according to the
01:05:59
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, that's wonderful. And well, Isaac, I want to be mindful of your time. And as I bring these conversations down for a landing, I always like to ask the guests for a recommendation of some kind for the listeners.
Recommendations & Interests
01:06:11
Speaker
And that can be anything from a book, a movie, or a brand of coffee that you're loving. So I'd extend that to you, Isaac. What might you recommend for the listeners out there? I'm sorry I'm going to cheat a little bit, because I can't not recommend a book. So I've got to write. Oh, you can do anything.
01:06:29
Speaker
Night of the Living Res. It's a fantastic short story collection by this writer, Morgan, who's fantastic. He's wonderful. He's from Maine. Just look it up. Night of the Living Res. If you haven't heard of it already, and I'm sure probably your listeners have because it's been everywhere, but if you haven't read it, it's as good as everyone's saying it is. I really, really love it. And then I think one of my favorite things that was not a book this year,
01:06:59
Speaker
was Nathaniel, which is an incredible stand up and to call it stand up as doesn't, I mean, don't get me wrong, I love stand up and stand up as an art form. Let's start there. But I'm just saying, like, I think I'm pretty sure he's sitting in a chair the whole time. So we can start there. But it is a stand up stand up by Gerard Carmichael, who just hosted the Golden Globes. But it came out in, I think around the middle of 2022 fact checking on that. Maybe it was early 2022, but Nathaniel,
01:07:28
Speaker
when I watched it, again, talking about somebody with vastly different life experiences than I have, but I connected with it for all the reasons that we've been talking about during our conversation. I'm not going to say anything more about it because there's so much in there that I hope a viewer can experience for the first time, but it is so, so good.
01:07:49
Speaker
Oh, fantastic. Well, well, Isaac, thank you so much for being so just forthcoming and forthright with so many beautiful insights about how you went about writing this incredible memoir and essays. So I just want to thank you for the time and thank you for the work. And yeah, this was wonderful. Thank you so much.
01:08:05
Speaker
Well, listen, man, I just want to say thank you so much for all that you do and the ways that you move through the community. And I deeply appreciate that in doing this. And I know you shouted out dirtbag at the end of last year, and I deeply appreciated that. But truly, what I really want to say thank you to is, as a reader, thank you for connecting with the work and having this great in-depth conversation with me. I really appreciate it.
01:08:31
Speaker
How good was that? That's gonna be an all-timer to me. That might go in the CNF Hall of Fame. And just saying, first ballot? First ballot Hall of Famer, all right? If you like this conversation as much as I did, consider sharing it and tagging me and the show at CNF Pod on Twitter. And Creative Nonfiction Podcast on Instagram.
01:08:52
Speaker
In any case, consider heading to patreon.com slash cnfbot to throw a few bucks into the tip jar. Show is free, but it sure as hell ain't cheap, and you can always rage against the algorithm with my up to 11 newsletter by heading to brendanomerra.com.
01:09:11
Speaker
Lately, a few newsletter people I subscribe to have been doing just what I did just a moment ago, asking for money. And I just can't contribute. I always feel horrible. I wish I could. And if I contributed to all of them,
01:09:29
Speaker
I'd burn through the dough I need to keep this ship afloat and I'm bailing water as it is. It makes me think that, you know, what is the tension that makes anybody pull the trigger to pay for something that is free?
01:09:45
Speaker
you know, if you pay $2 a month or $10 a month, you feel like you're probably getting more value than what you're paying for. I think that's the case. You pay $3 for a cup of coffee. You feel like it's a better deal than $3 for a cup of coffee. Or you're just super nice and you want to help. All valid reasons. So many people, artists, are creating their own content mills, and I get the logic behind asking people to pay for it. It takes a lot of time.
01:10:13
Speaker
As if attention isn't the big enough paywall, right? I know the sub-stack platform allows for comments and such behind the paywall, so there's a community aspect and something akin to exclusive access, say, to Austin Kleon or George Saunders and Allie Ward. I don't think she has a sub-stack. She does more interactive stuff on her Patreon page. She's Ologies. Is there a podcast if you don't listen? That's a great podcast. Awesome stuff.
01:10:43
Speaker
Allie, come on the show please. I'd love to talk to you. More and more stuff is going behind paywalls and it's like, how do we keep finding new ways to get more specific and serve the community at hand? Like, how many subscriptions do you have to various magazines or newspapers?
01:11:01
Speaker
streaming services and then you get some bozo like me saying, hey, pay for my podcast. And I guess the way kind of just find more ways to get specific and keep serving the community at hand and trying to over deliver.
01:11:19
Speaker
That's the only way, I think, giveaways, maybe critiques and happy hours. People who listen to the show are primarily writers. What do writers want? Well, to be published or to be more publishable. I don't know. Maybe it's something along those lines that people are like, oh, the interviews themselves are something of a micro lesson every single week, but maybe there's something more specific that can be a little more hands-on.
01:11:46
Speaker
Maybe it's the building a community where there is a paywall aspect where it's like a writing group and everyone kind of helps each other out. I don't know. Anyway, I'm grateful for the patrons for this show, as well as any listener who can't rationalize paying a few bucks. I get it. Frankly, as I said a moment ago, attention is its own paywall. And I don't take that for granted. Time is
01:12:12
Speaker
time is its own currency. But heck, if you can and you're willing, some dough is always helpful. And I'm always looking for ways to put a little extra something in your stocking for that support. But in the meantime, stay wild, see ya in efforts. And if you can't do, interview. See ya.
01:12:42
Speaker
you