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Ep. 18: Foul Ball: 'Caught Stealing' Falls Short Despite Big Swings
13 Plays6 months ago
In this episode of Adaptation: The Book to Movie Podcast, Nate and Chris discuss 'Caught Stealing,' written by Charlie Huston, with a film adaptation directed by Darren Aronofsky, starring Austin Butler, Zoe Kravitz, Bad Bunny, Regina King and many more.
They also discuss the idea of the anti-hero -- someone you're asked to root for no matter how hard it gets -- and why it's so important for the lessons a character learns to be clear and present in the story.
UP NEXT: 'A Clockwork Orange' by Anthony Burgess with a film adaptation directed by Stanley Kubrick.
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Chris's Letterboxd (@cjanderson878)
Hosts: Nate Day, Chris Anderson
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Hosts Introduction and Episode Focus
00:01:03
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podcast.
00:01:03
Speaker
Music
00:01:16
Speaker
Welcome to Adaptation, the Book to Movie Podcast.
00:01:21
Speaker
I'm Nate.
00:01:22
Speaker
And I'm Chris.
00:01:23
Speaker
And today we are discussing Caught Stealing by Charlie Houston and its film adaptation directed by Darren Aronofsky.
00:01:31
Speaker
But before we dive into that conversation, how are you, Chris?
00:01:35
Speaker
Where are you, Chris?
00:01:36
Speaker
I'm doing great.
00:01:38
Speaker
Yeah, I landed in Florida yesterday, just spent a couple hours by the pool and then headed up to give you a call.
00:01:44
Speaker
Good.
00:01:45
Speaker
And you're in Florida for a couple weeks, right?
00:01:49
Speaker
Yep.
00:01:49
Speaker
Just hanging out, seeing Blair's folks.
00:01:51
Speaker
It is delightful.
00:01:54
Speaker
Cool.
00:01:54
Speaker
Well, what have you been reading in the meantime?
Recent Reads and Adaptation Potential
00:01:58
Speaker
Well, now that I'm back from my delightful trip to see you, I have actually I've gotten through a couple of books for future prep for us.
00:02:07
Speaker
OK, cool.
00:02:09
Speaker
One was Bad Monkey by Carl.
00:02:12
Speaker
I should have looked up how to say his name.
00:02:13
Speaker
I want to say he ass in.
00:02:17
Speaker
Hi, son, three, three vowels next to each other should happen.
00:02:22
Speaker
So I don't I don't know what to do with that.
00:02:25
Speaker
Um, that one's we were still in, you and I are still in discussion because it was turned into a TV show, not a movie, but, um, I don't know.
00:02:33
Speaker
I think we'll get to it.
00:02:34
Speaker
Phenomenal book.
00:02:35
Speaker
Super fun.
00:02:36
Speaker
Good.
00:02:37
Speaker
And then I actually also just finished a graphic biography, a graphic novel biography of Jane Austen to do a little prep for that episode.
00:02:47
Speaker
Whoa.
00:02:48
Speaker
Graphic novel biography.
00:02:51
Speaker
Yeah, I have never seen or heard of such a thing, but it was a delightful little read, a fun way to get some information.
00:02:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:03:00
Speaker
What you been watching?
Discussion on Recent Movie Adaptations
00:03:02
Speaker
I've been watching a couple of adaptations, also prep for future episodes for us.
00:03:08
Speaker
Well, one of them, I guess.
00:03:10
Speaker
Most recently, I saw The Long Walk, which is...
00:03:13
Speaker
The most recent Stephen King adaptation, and I don't want to give too much away, but we are going to talk about Stephen King's big year of 2025, including this movie.
00:03:23
Speaker
That man just keeps working.
00:03:25
Speaker
I know, it's ridiculous.
00:03:26
Speaker
The list I sent Chris to prep was a little hefty, so just do what you can, buddy.
00:03:31
Speaker
Don't stress out.
00:03:33
Speaker
A lot of them are actually short stories.
00:03:35
Speaker
I think this one...
00:03:38
Speaker
I can't say for sure, but some of the ones I sent you are only short stories.
00:03:42
Speaker
I think I'm going on a library quest, but you just watched that one?
00:03:45
Speaker
But I did watch that one.
00:03:46
Speaker
Really interesting timing because it's about political violence.
00:03:50
Speaker
Oh.
00:03:52
Speaker
That'll be an interesting discussion.
00:03:54
Speaker
Yes.
00:03:55
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When we come to that.
00:03:56
Speaker
And then also I watched Highest to Lowest, which is the latest Spike Lee movie, which is a loose remake of the Japanese movie High and Low, I think is what it's called, directed by Kurosawa, which is a loose adaptation of a novel called King's Ransom, which is why it wasn't really on our schedule because there were so many
00:04:19
Speaker
kind of gaps there and they were being real dodgy with release dates.
00:04:24
Speaker
But interesting, interesting movie about like morals and legacy and just kind of really bizarre that the Spike Lee movie got basically no theatrical run starring Denzel Washington to one of the bigger movie stars like ever was kind of dumped on a streaming service where probably nobody's going to see it.
00:04:42
Speaker
Yeah, that was that was literally available on my flight yesterday morning.
00:04:46
Speaker
Really on the plane?
00:04:48
Speaker
Yeah.
00:04:49
Speaker
Weird.
00:04:50
Speaker
Yeah, it's decent.
00:04:52
Speaker
It's not good or bad, really.
00:04:56
Speaker
That's not exactly a stellar review.
00:04:58
Speaker
No, I guess it's good.
00:05:00
Speaker
I guess it's good.
00:05:00
Speaker
It feels like a TV movie, really.
00:05:02
Speaker
Interesting.
00:05:03
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Which is probably why they didn't invest in it heavily, but I don't know.
00:05:07
Speaker
A movie directed by Spike Lee and starring Denzel Washington and A$AP Rocky, I just can't really wrap my head around why there was not more fanfare around it, whether it was good or bad.
00:05:18
Speaker
Yeah, I would have expected to hear tons about that.
00:05:22
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:05:23
Speaker
But both worth the watch, I think, regardless of my opinion.
00:05:27
Speaker
You know, I'm always telling you that I think that movies that don't align with my taste are still, I think, important to watch and important to the ecosystem of Hollywood.
00:05:36
Speaker
So...
00:05:37
Speaker
I definitely recommend both of those.
00:05:40
Speaker
And I think in some capacity, we'll talk about them both.
00:05:43
Speaker
Yeah, I think I'll watch it on the flight back and we'll commiserate.
00:05:47
Speaker
Yeah, it'll be interesting.
Introduction to 'Caught Stealing' and its Adaptation
00:05:48
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And that's what I've been watching.
00:05:50
Speaker
Should we dive into caught stealing?
00:05:54
Speaker
Let's dive head first.
00:05:55
Speaker
Great.
00:05:56
Speaker
All right.
00:05:56
Speaker
Tell me about the book.
00:05:58
Speaker
Yeah, so another one in a string of recommendations from you that I had never heard of.
00:06:06
Speaker
That's my specialty.
00:06:08
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:06:08
Speaker
You're really finding them, which is good because I never would have picked it up otherwise, I don't think.
00:06:14
Speaker
Yeah.
00:06:16
Speaker
Yeah, as you said, written by a gentleman, Charlie Houston, who knows?
00:06:21
Speaker
Yeah, still very active.
00:06:23
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I did mention I think this is, if not the at least up there, most contemporary author that we've covered so far.
00:06:31
Speaker
Does that sound right?
00:06:33
Speaker
Probably.
00:06:35
Speaker
I mean, he's still pumping out a lot of work.
00:06:37
Speaker
Yeah.
00:06:39
Speaker
A very eclectic website that had a big banner at the bottom that said, email me, let's talk.
00:06:45
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So I did.
00:06:46
Speaker
That was at no fault of his, only 48 hours ago.
00:06:49
Speaker
So I haven't heard back.
00:06:51
Speaker
But if he does email me back, we'll put the update in another episode.
00:06:55
Speaker
Totally.
00:06:57
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Born in Oakland, California in 1968, and I believe he was living in New York at the time that he wrote this, but has since moved back.
00:07:07
Speaker
Okay.
00:07:08
Speaker
This is one of his earlier works.
00:07:11
Speaker
So this was published a little over 20 years ago, came out in 2004.
00:07:15
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:07:17
Speaker
And I went back and forth on how to word this.
00:07:21
Speaker
By numbers, novels are not the minority of his work, of his body of work, but in importance, they seem not to be his primary means of communicating his fairly unique ideas, very interesting ideas.
00:07:42
Speaker
You mean he writes other kinds of stuff is what you're saying?
00:07:45
Speaker
Yes, exactly.
00:07:46
Speaker
Exactly.
00:07:46
Speaker
That was a much more eloquent way to say it.
00:07:50
Speaker
Other stuff?
00:07:51
Speaker
I don't
Character Analysis of Hank in 'Caught Stealing'
00:07:52
Speaker
know.
00:07:52
Speaker
He does a lot of screenwriting.
00:07:54
Speaker
I believe he wrote the screenplay for this to be turned into a movie himself.
00:07:59
Speaker
Correct.
00:08:00
Speaker
Has an entire comic book series that Marvel launched recreating.
00:08:05
Speaker
Oh, gosh, you know, I'm not a comic book guy.
00:08:08
Speaker
It's like Moon Man or Moon...
00:08:13
Speaker
boy something it's it's a comic book character that from what i saw and i did not look hard marvel had created in the past themselves and then kind of gave him the go ahead to reboot it in his way uh okay cool and it was interesting because that's not typically a tidbit that i would
00:08:35
Speaker
be at all concerned about.
00:08:38
Speaker
But knowing that he's a comic book writer kind of made this novel make more sense.
00:08:43
Speaker
Yeah, that's something really clicked for me, too, when you said that just now.
00:08:48
Speaker
That makes some things fall into place, right?
00:08:50
Speaker
Totally.
00:08:51
Speaker
And the book was sort of that way.
00:08:54
Speaker
The second I found that out, you could picture some of these scenes that otherwise felt not stilted in and of themselves, but a bit disjointed as a storyline to me.
00:09:07
Speaker
Picturing them as a comic book made a lot of sense.
00:09:09
Speaker
So, I mean, it would be a bit long for a graphic novel, but I think that would be a cool piece.
00:09:14
Speaker
So, Charlie, if you're listening to my expert advice...
00:09:19
Speaker
I recommend that, I suppose.
00:09:21
Speaker
Maybe he will.
00:09:23
Speaker
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised.
00:09:24
Speaker
Looking at his body of work, I wouldn't be surprised at all.
00:09:27
Speaker
It was almost more surprising he doesn't have one already.
00:09:30
Speaker
Sure.
00:09:31
Speaker
And again, that's based on just what I was reading about his current work and what he's been doing, because he still has, I think, 14 novels and some fairly recent.
00:09:41
Speaker
Like, he's still absolutely actively writing novels.
00:09:44
Speaker
So by no means a small quantity.
00:09:47
Speaker
Sure.
00:09:48
Speaker
But this book, Caught Stealing, it is about the main character, and that is a very deliberate choice of words on my part that we'll dig into.
00:09:58
Speaker
Thinks he'll become this big baseball star.
00:10:00
Speaker
He is caught stealing, or actually, I guess, I think he was safe.
00:10:04
Speaker
He's playing a baseball game.
00:10:07
Speaker
All these scouts are out watching him, definitely going to the major leagues.
00:10:11
Speaker
And then the third base player jumps to catch the throw.
00:10:16
Speaker
When he goes to steal, comes down on his ankle, snaps it, a very vivid description, and his baseball career is over.
00:10:25
Speaker
That's what ends his baseball career?
00:10:27
Speaker
That's what ends his baseball career.
00:10:29
Speaker
Wow, that's a big difference in the movie.
00:10:32
Speaker
Oh, really?
00:10:33
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:33
Speaker
Wait, what happens in the movie?
00:10:35
Speaker
He gets into basically a drunk driving accident and kills his buddy and injures himself.
00:10:42
Speaker
So there's no scene of him playing baseball at all?
00:10:46
Speaker
Nope.
00:10:47
Speaker
That's a curious omission.
00:10:50
Speaker
It is because it directly relates to one of my discussion questions too and kind of one of my gripes about the movie in general.
00:10:58
Speaker
um about the sports related themes that seem in no way related sports yeah and his past yeah yeah okay i i don't need to sit here guessing we will get to that um
00:11:13
Speaker
No, we'll get to that.
00:11:13
Speaker
I'll save all because I also have queries along those lines.
00:11:17
Speaker
Okay.
00:11:18
Speaker
The rest of the book is essentially a downhill road for Hank's life starting at this moment.
00:11:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:27
Speaker
Including exactly the scene you alluded to, the drunk driving accident where he is fine, but his buddy is thrown from the car and dies.
00:11:35
Speaker
many murders, a bunch of stolen money, and a series of incredibly grotesque beatings slash torturings.
00:11:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:46
Speaker
I don't necessarily want to spend a lot of time on the plot.
00:11:48
Speaker
It is interesting, certainly.
00:11:50
Speaker
You know he's a bit of a wrong place, wrong time.
00:11:55
Speaker
He is a woeful alcoholic working as a bartender in...
00:12:03
Speaker
New York after baseball falls through, he kills his friend and decides to leave town, goes to, doesn't kill his friend.
00:12:10
Speaker
His friend dies in a drunk driving accident, but you know what I mean?
00:12:14
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:15
Speaker
Goes to New York, clearly weighed down by the guilt of this incident.
00:12:19
Speaker
He's at the bar one night.
00:12:21
Speaker
The inciting incident is really he's beat up by two guys he does not know and has so poorly treated his body with the gallons of liquor he's pouring down his throat that the beating tipped it over just enough that he has to have a kidney removed.
00:12:35
Speaker
Right.
00:12:36
Speaker
And yeah, it really just continues downhill from there.
00:12:39
Speaker
Friend asked him to watch a cat.
00:12:41
Speaker
Chaos ensues that I don't want to.
00:12:44
Speaker
I'll try not to spoil as much as possible because there's not there's not a lot of meat to this one.
00:12:50
Speaker
There were like a lot of plot points.
00:12:52
Speaker
I don't feel like we could really discuss without spoiling it.
00:12:56
Speaker
Spoiling.
00:12:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:58
Speaker
But what I do want to talk about is antiheroes.
Exploration of Anti-Heroes in Literature
00:13:02
Speaker
Okay.
00:13:03
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:05
Speaker
You are familiar?
00:13:05
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:13:07
Speaker
Okay.
00:13:08
Speaker
Okay.
00:13:09
Speaker
I had certainly heard it before, but I immediately in the sort of discussion and review of this book that I was reading had to look this up separately because I don't think I could have given you a decent definition myself.
00:13:25
Speaker
Okay.
00:13:27
Speaker
And I looked this up because my impression throughout reading the book was constantly, I don't like any of these people.
00:13:40
Speaker
Which is, I mean, I hope he responds at some point, exactly the email that I sent to the author.
00:13:45
Speaker
Wow.
00:13:48
Speaker
Besides...
00:13:51
Speaker
One woman, Yvonne, his girlfriend, quote unquote girlfriend, who is clearly an innocent bystander, but also hanging out with this bum.
00:14:00
Speaker
So I don't know.
00:14:02
Speaker
I'm not going to say how innocent is she, but, you know, you kind of feel for her.
00:14:07
Speaker
And then the cat, Bud.
00:14:11
Speaker
I suppose you feel for him.
00:14:12
Speaker
But really, those were the only two characters.
00:14:15
Speaker
And that's what I said.
00:14:16
Speaker
I said, besides these two, perhaps, am I intended as the reader to like any of these characters?
00:14:23
Speaker
Yeah.
00:14:24
Speaker
So I started looking it up.
00:14:26
Speaker
What the heck?
00:14:26
Speaker
That's why I called him the main character.
00:14:28
Speaker
I would be reticent to call him the protagonist in any capacity myself.
00:14:35
Speaker
But that is the goal behind this literary device.
00:14:38
Speaker
It is still our protagonist, Hank, but they are broadly defined as the protagonist or main character who does not exhibit the qualities of a, again, quote unquote, hero along the lines of morals and decision making.
00:14:55
Speaker
I saw many examples.
00:14:57
Speaker
Robin Hood was even an example.
00:14:59
Speaker
Because, I mean, I think we're all on the same page.
00:15:02
Speaker
We dig him.
00:15:03
Speaker
But yes, objectively, he is stealing from someone, even if it's the rich, and we're all okay with that.
00:15:10
Speaker
He is still stealing.
00:15:13
Speaker
And I saw a series of very interesting examples throughout literature.
00:15:18
Speaker
What's so brilliant and really brought me around on this book as a whole is that the anti-hero is not this knight in shining armor who has to rise above the scum of the earth and keep all of us average citizens safe.
00:15:34
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:36
Speaker
The antihero as protagonist is much more immediately identifiable because they have these very clear flaws.
00:15:46
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:15:48
Speaker
as we all do.
00:15:49
Speaker
Right.
00:15:50
Speaker
Right.
00:15:50
Speaker
You know, who, who watches Superman?
00:15:52
Speaker
This is perhaps too literal for a comic book hero, but who watches Superman and thinks, aha, I too am bulletproof.
00:16:00
Speaker
Right.
00:16:00
Speaker
Hopefully nobody.
00:16:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:02
Speaker
Right.
00:16:02
Speaker
Exactly.
00:16:03
Speaker
So, so that actually made it make a lot more sense.
00:16:05
Speaker
Additionally, Houston, Houston, Houston himself has described his own writing as very character driven.
00:16:16
Speaker
The,
00:16:17
Speaker
dynamics of individuals, how they interact with one another.
00:16:21
Speaker
And this really lends itself.
00:16:24
Speaker
This literary device really lends itself to that type of writing.
00:16:29
Speaker
These characters are more complex, more dynamic, and it's a very different flavor of storyline than your typical hero's quest.
00:16:38
Speaker
Sure.
00:16:38
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:39
Speaker
So in that sense, I dig it.
00:16:41
Speaker
It's if nothing else, something different, certainly something unique.
00:16:48
Speaker
In this case, there are clearly bad guys doing objectively objectionable things.
00:16:55
Speaker
I had a great time writing that if you couldn't tell.
00:17:00
Speaker
But the setup for our protagonist, Hank, is such that you do not immediately feel much sympathy for him, right?
00:17:10
Speaker
Yeah.
00:17:10
Speaker
Sure.
00:17:12
Speaker
And I have no idea how much setup they gave.
00:17:15
Speaker
I guess, actually, knowing that they skipped the baseball scene, that should have set up a little bit more sympathy, perhaps, for you.
00:17:23
Speaker
But, you know, even leading up to getting beaten up by these two guys he didn't know, you're like, well, you only lost a kidney because you were treating your body so poorly previous to this event, right?
00:17:36
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:17:39
Speaker
So that was my mindset going into the rest of the wild and crazy ride.
00:17:44
Speaker
Yeah.
00:17:46
Speaker
And it's an interesting mix that I was not initially drawn to very much.
00:17:53
Speaker
But we have discussed this idea of morally ambiguous decisions on the part of the quote-unquote protagonist.
00:18:05
Speaker
You know, storyline-wise, does it make sense compared to this identifiable aspect of
00:18:12
Speaker
for the reader, for the watcher, is that the decision I would make?
00:18:17
Speaker
It brings up, if nothing else, curious questions.
00:18:20
Speaker
The overall vibe, I need to quit doing air quotes that only you can see and the listeners cannot, very melancholy, overall bad vibes.
00:18:34
Speaker
But you do still want to know what happens next.
00:18:37
Speaker
So
Narrative Style and Plot Twists in 'Caught Stealing'
00:18:38
Speaker
perhaps that's the brilliance in the writing.
00:18:40
Speaker
Yeah, sure.
00:18:42
Speaker
So summary recap, I don't want to spoil any of the book because there are also is also an aspect that you really need each of these twists and turns.
00:18:55
Speaker
So there's not a lot that you can discuss.
00:18:58
Speaker
Because it's not like, you know, these examples we've discussed, Shutter Island Minority Report, where there's like truly a main thing.
00:19:08
Speaker
Yes, a crazy plot twist that everything hinges on.
00:19:13
Speaker
Right.
00:19:14
Speaker
The value in this book is in strapping in and going along for the ride.
00:19:20
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:20
Speaker
Yeah, it's like a zigzaggy narrative.
00:19:23
Speaker
Yes, very much so.
00:19:25
Speaker
All the way, I mean, beginning, middle, and actually, you know what?
00:19:28
Speaker
That also happened with, that did come up with Jurassic Park.
00:19:34
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:19:35
Speaker
Yeah, there's no one.
00:19:36
Speaker
The turn is kind of dinosaurs.
00:19:39
Speaker
Yes, yes, it comes up right at the beginning.
00:19:41
Speaker
And there's a quality of that that I think done poorly would deflate the narrative in its entirety.
00:19:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:53
Speaker
But the brilliance in these books that were clearly good enough to be turned into movies, and arguably on this part, no matter how good the book was, he himself wrote the screenplay, so he was going to make it into a movie.
00:20:04
Speaker
Right.
00:20:05
Speaker
Is that whether you agree with the decisions being made, whether you like the characters you've been presented with...
00:20:12
Speaker
you want to know what happens next, which was unique for me.
00:20:16
Speaker
And so I'm glad that I did a little bit of digging into what makes this what it is.
00:20:22
Speaker
I found some fascinating histories going all the way back to...
00:20:28
Speaker
Well, first of all, going all the way back to Homer.
00:20:31
Speaker
Oh, geez.
00:20:31
Speaker
Because I was waiting to see, you know, the first antihero was in 1932 or something.
00:20:37
Speaker
No, examples picked out all the way back to Homer.
00:20:41
Speaker
One particularly famous French author, Jean-Paptiste Racine, writing between 1639 and 1699, seemed to kind of...
00:20:54
Speaker
develop this neoclassical version that's kind of become a archetype, but there are 1000 different versions of this antihero, which was very interesting to me that people have continued to, to return to this as a device, perhaps not in comparison to again, like the classic heroes quest that we talked about, but,
00:21:24
Speaker
but we, we see some other examples from Charlotte Bronte actually had a few, uh, Edward Rochester in Jane Eyre, Don Draper in Mad Men.
00:21:35
Speaker
Oh yeah.
00:21:38
Speaker
Um, one that didn't feel like a surprise, Tyler Durden in Fight Club.
00:21:42
Speaker
Yep.
00:21:43
Speaker
Uh, one may, I think, validly argue that Palnichuk, uh,
00:21:49
Speaker
wrote quite a few characters that no one likes, right?
00:21:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:53
Speaker
And one very interesting example that I was like, okay, this is more of a dynamic character design than I even imagined.
00:22:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:02
Speaker
Cusco.
00:22:06
Speaker
The llama guy?
00:22:07
Speaker
From Emperor's New Groove.
00:22:09
Speaker
Yep.
00:22:10
Speaker
That guy rocks.
00:22:11
Speaker
Actually, I guess by the end of the movie he rocks, but not at the beginning.
00:22:16
Speaker
And there's that dynamicism.
00:22:18
Speaker
Yeah, totally.
00:22:19
Speaker
That will come up in spades in our next one, Clockwork Orange.
00:22:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:28
Speaker
But it was fascinating for me to see this idea out of the hundreds and hundreds of books that I've read.
00:22:34
Speaker
I have never stopped and wondered, why am I drawn to this character?
00:22:39
Speaker
Because probably the first third of this book, I was once again displeased with our choice.
00:22:46
Speaker
Really?
00:22:46
Speaker
Okay.
00:22:48
Speaker
Just because it's not fun to me, you know, call it escapism, call it reading drivel for entertainment.
00:22:55
Speaker
There's an aspect of reading page after page of this person I do not enjoy that really turns me off.
00:23:04
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:04
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:23:05
Speaker
And I think maybe that's, on a personal note, a point for self-reflection.
00:23:10
Speaker
But there's an aspect where, to me, I am so surrounded by plenty of non-fictional characters.
00:23:21
Speaker
Right.
00:23:22
Speaker
That act in this way that I don't need to seek it in my entertainment.
00:23:27
Speaker
Sure.
00:23:28
Speaker
But, you know, that's getting into the far larger question that we certainly won't discuss.
00:23:32
Speaker
You know, why do we read?
00:23:34
Speaker
Right.
00:23:36
Speaker
There's no answer.
00:23:37
Speaker
Exactly.
00:23:38
Speaker
Exactly.
00:23:39
Speaker
Exactly.
00:23:39
Speaker
So it really from once again, a book I was not terribly enjoying initially to some insightful reflection that it caused that I really enjoyed.
00:23:52
Speaker
Good.
00:23:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:53
Speaker
So a bit of a surprise in the book.
00:23:55
Speaker
And I'm really, really interested to hear about some of these, how they were mirrored on the screen.
00:24:02
Speaker
Yeah, I am too, especially now that we know that there were some interesting changes.
00:24:07
Speaker
Yes, yes.
00:24:09
Speaker
But we will, let's take a quick break and then dive into our discussion of the movie.
00:24:14
Speaker
So stick around.
00:24:19
Speaker
All right.
00:24:19
Speaker
And we are back.
00:24:20
Speaker
Thank you for sticking around.
00:24:21
Speaker
We are talking about caught stealing.
00:24:23
Speaker
We're about to move into the film adaptation portion of our discussion.
00:24:30
Speaker
This is a unique discussion for us.
00:24:32
Speaker
This is the first time I think I was looking back at our calendar right before we jumped on here that we're talking about a brand new movie like following its release.
00:24:41
Speaker
Yes.
00:24:41
Speaker
Yes.
00:24:42
Speaker
I think you're correct.
00:24:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:24:44
Speaker
So because that's the case, I can't really speak about the cultural or historical impacts of the movie.
00:24:51
Speaker
I'll cover a little bit of what I can, what I've been able to find.
00:24:54
Speaker
So I have a bit of a breakdown, a bit of a review of the movie.
00:24:58
Speaker
And then when we get to our recommendations section, I sort of wrote that based on this movie's predecessors, the sort of lineage that led to this movie, because I think it's best to recommend this movie based on
00:25:13
Speaker
how you may feel about other movies that are similar to it.
00:25:16
Speaker
It's fantastic.
00:25:17
Speaker
I love this approach.
00:25:18
Speaker
Great.
00:25:19
Speaker
So like you alluded to earlier, the screenplay for this movie was written by Houston, which is actually not super common in Hollywood these days for the author to get to, to write the screenplay.
00:25:31
Speaker
They're usually invited to provide some feedback and input.
00:25:35
Speaker
Sometimes they're hired to write a first draft, but it's,
00:25:39
Speaker
Book authors usually don't make for very talented screenwriters just because it's a very different medium.
00:25:45
Speaker
And you can see that like with the Harry Potter spinoff movies, JK Rowling wrote those and they're bad.
00:25:53
Speaker
movies.
00:25:54
Speaker
And, you know, personal politics aside, she's obviously a good writer.
00:25:59
Speaker
She wrote one of the most popular book series of all time.
00:26:03
Speaker
So you can't say that, like, she's a bad writer because she wrote bad movies.
00:26:07
Speaker
So anyway, cheers to Charlie for writing a version of this that that Hollywood executives were excited enough about to hold on to.
00:26:16
Speaker
That's, that's a pretty big deal.
00:26:18
Speaker
And I actually wondered that can we pause there for one second?
00:26:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:22
Speaker
Cause my first thought when I read that, I thought, I don't think we've seen that it must not be common.
00:26:29
Speaker
Does that give a different weight to the author's perspective, writing the screenplay themselves as compared to, I've seen plenty of consulting directors or something like that.
00:26:42
Speaker
Do you know what I mean?
00:26:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:44
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:44
Speaker
I mean, he made the choices to cut some of the things and change some of the things that were cut and changed.
00:26:51
Speaker
So I have to imagine that this is a version that maybe he's more happy with than if, you know, I had sat down to adapt the book, right?
00:27:01
Speaker
Right.
00:27:02
Speaker
Yep.
00:27:03
Speaker
And that could have been stipulated when he sold the rights to Sony Pictures that he write the movie so that he could have, you know, more than a modicum of creative control over this thing.
00:27:16
Speaker
Yep.
00:27:16
Speaker
Yep.
00:27:17
Speaker
But it was directed by Darren Aronofsky, who has been around for a long time.
00:27:22
Speaker
You may recognize his name.
00:27:23
Speaker
It's a weird choice for Aronofsky because he usually does psychological thrillers.
00:27:29
Speaker
He's known, of course, for Black Swan as sort of his masterpiece.
00:27:33
Speaker
Requiem for a Dream, Mother, The Wrestler, and most recently, The Whale.
00:27:38
Speaker
So this is a very big departure for him because it's very commercial.
00:27:42
Speaker
You know, it's a crime thriller.
00:27:44
Speaker
It's an action movie.
00:27:45
Speaker
Everyone in the film community is sort of like, what?
00:27:49
Speaker
What was happening here?
00:27:50
Speaker
Like, was this a paycheck gig?
00:27:52
Speaker
Is he just trying something new?
00:27:53
Speaker
Is he trying to become more commercial?
00:27:55
Speaker
It's just very, very out of character for Darren Aronofsky to pick up this project.
00:28:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:02
Speaker
Was Mother that really weird one with the house?
00:28:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:06
Speaker
Oh, my gosh.
00:28:07
Speaker
I hated that movie.
00:28:08
Speaker
I love that movie.
00:28:09
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:11
Speaker
I do want to say that it's interesting because for spoiler reasons, we will not get into the particular turn that causes me to say this.
00:28:22
Speaker
But I would argue this is actually right up that alley by the very end.
00:28:29
Speaker
Okay.
00:28:30
Speaker
You might have to tell me off mic what you're talking about.
00:28:34
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I will.
'Caught Stealing' Movie Adaptation Analysis
00:28:35
Speaker
So we don't spoil anything.
00:28:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:28:36
Speaker
No, if I said it right now, it would literally remove any reason for people to read it.
00:28:42
Speaker
Right.
00:28:42
Speaker
Yeah, no kidding.
00:28:43
Speaker
But the movie has a huge cast.
00:28:45
Speaker
It's led by Austin Butler, who plays Hank, and Zoe Kravitz is Yvonne.
00:28:50
Speaker
Wow.
00:28:51
Speaker
And the supporting cast is Matt Smith, and he's just hilarious.
00:28:54
Speaker
He has the most awesome costumes and hairstyle.
00:28:58
Speaker
He has like a foot-tall mohawk, and he's doing this just wackadoo accent.
00:29:04
Speaker
He's so funny.
00:29:05
Speaker
He's so good in this movie.
00:29:06
Speaker
Is he Russ?
00:29:08
Speaker
Yeah, that's the neighbor that owns the cat.
00:29:10
Speaker
Fantastic.
00:29:11
Speaker
Yep.
00:29:12
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:29:13
Speaker
Regina King, Bad Bunny, Vincent D'Onofrio, Liev Schreiber, Carole Kane, Action Bronson, Deferro Wunitai, and Griffin Dunn.
00:29:20
Speaker
Those are all like notable big name actors that are in this movie.
00:29:24
Speaker
And because that's not enough, there are cameos from Tina Cuerta and Laura Dern.
00:29:29
Speaker
This cast is nearly convincing me to watch it.
00:29:33
Speaker
This was probably in my top like 10 or 15 most anticipated movies of the year, partly because I was like, how can all of these actors that I like and or love be in a movie?
00:29:45
Speaker
Like, how could it not be amazing?
00:29:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:48
Speaker
And I, I'll get into a little bit more detail, but I was a little bit let down.
00:29:55
Speaker
But huge, huge cast, ensemble cast, because like I said, it has that zigzag narrative.
00:30:01
Speaker
So a lot of these characters pop in for,
00:30:03
Speaker
one or two scenes, and then you never see them again.
00:30:07
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:30:08
Speaker
Very, very much along the lines of the book.
00:30:10
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:10
Speaker
The movie does a really great job of just plopping you right down into 1990s New York.
00:30:18
Speaker
It's really gritty and grimy.
00:30:19
Speaker
And the movie opens with a wide shot of the New York City skyline, which includes the World Trade Centers, which is just something that I think...
00:30:28
Speaker
you and I will probably always catch in a movie considering our age that, you know, the world trade centers were around for a solid portion of our life.
00:30:38
Speaker
And then we're not, um, and then weren't, you know,
00:30:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:43
Speaker
And it's just something that I guess I always catch when I'm watching movies, especially ones made now about New York City in the past, because like the director has to make a choice.
00:30:53
Speaker
Do you put that in and let everybody sort of mentally remember or do you leave it out and just avoid like the 9-11 discussion?
00:31:03
Speaker
So I thought it was really interesting that this chose to just go ahead and do it.
00:31:08
Speaker
But I think that's partially important, not only to the setting of the time period, but I guess the climax of the story takes place at a baseball stadium in New York that also no longer exists.
00:31:19
Speaker
So I, you know, I think it also is maybe a bit of an ode to a New York that just doesn't exist anymore.
00:31:27
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:31:29
Speaker
Like I said, movie is really gritty and grimy.
00:31:31
Speaker
It's a pretty decent thriller, but some of the emotional beats don't really land in this.
00:31:38
Speaker
And I'm wondering, my initial thought was that it's got a really short runtime.
00:31:43
Speaker
It's only 107 minutes, which is pretty short for a movie these days, especially like a big studio movie with big movie stars.
00:31:50
Speaker
And I was thinking that that short runtime meant that some significant pieces were cut.
00:31:56
Speaker
And it sounds like that's the case.
00:31:58
Speaker
Like we talked about his, his reason for quitting baseball was completely different in this movie.
00:32:04
Speaker
And that became a kind of a, that's sort of the through line through so much of the story that I was just not buying any of the lessons that he was learning throughout this wacky adventure.
00:32:17
Speaker
I was not seeing the connection between that and, and,
00:32:20
Speaker
The incident, this drunk driving incident.
00:32:23
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:32:24
Speaker
I just couldn't connect the two, really.
00:32:25
Speaker
So, like I said, it fell sort of flat.
00:32:30
Speaker
That was 100% evident in the book as well.
00:32:34
Speaker
The, what is this sports theme?
00:32:37
Speaker
Until nearly the end when it, and honestly still was not a satisfactory loose end being tied up.
00:32:47
Speaker
Yeah, okay.
00:32:49
Speaker
Better.
00:32:50
Speaker
The part, are they, are they in the car when he's listening to both games happening simultaneously?
00:32:58
Speaker
No, I don't think that happens.
00:33:00
Speaker
Okay, so yeah, they definitely removed the major parts that made it feel in any way related to baseball.
00:33:08
Speaker
Yeah, when I left the theater, I was like, why the hell was that called cot stealing?
00:33:13
Speaker
And then I remembered that that's a baseball term and was like, okay, well, based on the movie I just watched, the title is just a kitschy reference to baseball.
00:33:22
Speaker
It's not...
00:33:23
Speaker
the thread that ties it together.
00:33:25
Speaker
And it sounds like caught stealing.
00:33:27
Speaker
I mean, he doesn't do any stealing in this movie.
00:33:29
Speaker
So, so I guess, except kind of at the very end, but he doesn't get caught.
00:33:34
Speaker
Uh huh.
00:33:35
Speaker
I 100% did not understand the title until I described to you the opening scene when he's caught stealing third base.
00:33:45
Speaker
And that's why his career was ended.
00:33:47
Speaker
Oh, he said it out loud.
00:33:48
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:49
Speaker
So it truly was not made.
00:33:51
Speaker
I mean, maybe we are two dense audience members, but...
00:33:55
Speaker
Right.
00:33:56
Speaker
It was not clear.
00:33:57
Speaker
We're not like baseball fans.
00:33:58
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:59
Speaker
But for all the criticisms I have of this movie, what I think is really cool about it is that you don't see many movies made like it right now.
00:34:08
Speaker
It's a crime thriller.
00:34:10
Speaker
And I was thinking to myself while I was watching it that it was cool.
00:34:13
Speaker
The guy's just running around New York City with a baseball bat.
00:34:16
Speaker
He's not.
00:34:17
Speaker
Usually we see stories like this and it's got like a superhero at the middle of it or, you know, or like Wednesday Adams.
00:34:24
Speaker
Right.
00:34:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:26
Speaker
And we don't really just get these kind of grounded or semi grounded stories about like potentially real people.
00:34:34
Speaker
So it felt very, really refreshing ultimately, you know?
00:34:38
Speaker
Yes.
00:34:38
Speaker
Yes.
00:34:39
Speaker
Yes.
00:34:39
Speaker
I agree with that.
00:34:41
Speaker
Yeah, especially coming out late in summer.
00:34:45
Speaker
It was just good sort of popcorn fare.
00:34:47
Speaker
Even though some of the thriller-ness of it all, thrilling pieces, weren't as thrilling as they maybe could or should have been, it's still entertaining.
00:34:57
Speaker
No, I see exactly what you mean.
00:34:59
Speaker
Yep.
00:35:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:01
Speaker
I wanted to throw this in here just so we could see that I'm kind of not the only person looking at it this way.
00:35:07
Speaker
The movie had a reported budget of $40 million.
00:35:09
Speaker
It's still fairly new.
00:35:10
Speaker
So that's not been confirmed really.
00:35:13
Speaker
It may never be confirmed, but that is a pretty small budget for a movie, especially an action movie these days.
00:35:20
Speaker
Um, but it's only grossed about 27 million in the couple of weeks it's been in theaters.
00:35:25
Speaker
So it's not performing very strong.
00:35:27
Speaker
Unfortunately, movies need to make two and a half times their budget in theaters to break even because you have to obviously recoup the budget, marketing and distribution costs.
00:35:39
Speaker
And when you plunk down $15 for a movie ticket, the studio is only getting like a third of that.
00:35:46
Speaker
So they have to make a lot of money in theaters in order to
00:35:50
Speaker
breakeven.
00:35:51
Speaker
So this movie is ultimately probably going to be a pretty significant loss for Sony.
00:35:59
Speaker
Interesting.
00:35:59
Speaker
You know what's funny?
00:36:00
Speaker
It's supposed to thunderstorm this afternoon, and we're probably going to see it in theaters in about two hours.
00:36:08
Speaker
That's interesting.
00:36:09
Speaker
You'll have to let me know if... I'll be interested to see how full your theater is, because I was pretty surprised.
00:36:13
Speaker
I think I went on a Friday night, and there were only like three other people in my theater.
00:36:17
Speaker
I was like, uh-oh, this is bad.
00:36:19
Speaker
Yeah.
00:36:20
Speaker
Well, you know, the only reason that we are maybe going to see that one, we didn't recognize a lot of other titles open.
00:36:26
Speaker
Two, knowing nothing about the plot, I suggested it.
00:36:30
Speaker
And Blair said, oh, isn't that Austin Butler, Zoe Kravitz and Bad Bunny?
00:36:35
Speaker
Oh, so they worked on somebody.
00:36:38
Speaker
Yeah, they've gotten something through.
00:36:40
Speaker
And I didn't know any of that.
00:36:41
Speaker
And we've been preparing to discuss this for weeks.
00:36:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:36:45
Speaker
Interesting.
00:36:46
Speaker
I mean, you are sort of like an advertiser's worst nightmare.
00:36:49
Speaker
Correct.
00:36:53
Speaker
You only watch your videos of tool restorations and then you go to bed or whatever.
00:36:58
Speaker
Yeah.
00:37:00
Speaker
I mean, crazy time for a malicious call out, but you're not incorrect.
00:37:05
Speaker
I'm just saying it's not like you're watching movie ads like I am every day.
00:37:10
Speaker
No, no, certainly not.
00:37:11
Speaker
I know she said that and I went, really?
00:37:13
Speaker
Oh, we should go see this.
00:37:16
Speaker
Well, thank goodness for Blair.
00:37:17
Speaker
You'll have to text me afterwards and let me know what you think.
00:37:20
Speaker
I will.
00:37:21
Speaker
I also threw some critic scores in here, just again to give some context.
00:37:26
Speaker
Rotten Tomatoes, you know, is split between audience and critic.
00:37:30
Speaker
And I think this is actually a good opportunity to talk about what Rotten Tomatoes is as well.
00:37:34
Speaker
The critic score, it's certified fresh at an 84, which is actually really pretty positive.
00:37:42
Speaker
And the audience score is right in line with that at 83.
00:37:46
Speaker
Rotten Tomatoes is an interesting...
00:37:48
Speaker
way to measure the quality of a movie because that percentage is just the percentage of people that submitted a review and gave it a fresh tomato that was not a bad review.
00:38:00
Speaker
So 84% of people thought that it was at least like a C on a letter grading scale.
00:38:07
Speaker
That is fascinating because I've given that
00:38:12
Speaker
far more weight than it sounds like maybe I should.
00:38:14
Speaker
The one that I turn to is the next one on my list here, Metacritic, which will actually assign a numerical value from 1 to 100 to a review based on quality, 100 being like a perfect movie.
00:38:28
Speaker
And then it will average all of those numerical values to give you a Metacritic score.
00:38:33
Speaker
Caught Stealing is sitting at a 65 on Metacritic.
00:38:37
Speaker
Right now.
00:38:37
Speaker
So a little bit lower.
00:38:38
Speaker
It's a little bit of a better evaluation of quality.
00:38:42
Speaker
But Rotten Tomatoes might tell you what percentage likely you are to walk away happy.
00:38:49
Speaker
Right?
00:38:49
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:38:51
Speaker
And would you say Metacritic lines up more with your feelings walking away from the theater?
00:38:58
Speaker
Uh, sometimes.
00:39:00
Speaker
I mean, I guess yes.
00:39:03
Speaker
It can be a little harsh sometimes, I think.
00:39:05
Speaker
65 is pretty low for this.
00:39:06
Speaker
I mean, I know I didn't make it sound like a brilliant movie or anything, but I would not have given it a 65.
00:39:14
Speaker
That's kind of harsh.
00:39:15
Speaker
You didn't walk away mad you paid money to see it.
00:39:18
Speaker
No.
00:39:19
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:39:21
Speaker
And then I also threw in here the average rating on Letterboxd for this movie right now is a 3.5.
00:39:27
Speaker
So, I mean, solid, you know?
00:39:29
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:30
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:31
Speaker
So interesting movie.
00:39:33
Speaker
Interesting to hear that they've made some of the changes that they did.
Character Attachment and Film Analysis
00:39:36
Speaker
Let's dive into our discussion questions.
00:39:38
Speaker
Why don't you hit me with one of yours?
00:39:40
Speaker
Yes, absolutely.
00:39:42
Speaker
Okay.
00:39:44
Speaker
I often ask you sort of the questions I've been asking myself since obviously I spend much more time with the text than you do in front of the screen.
00:39:54
Speaker
Do you feel of the, you know, by the nature of the media, not by, you understood what I meant.
00:40:00
Speaker
Why am I explaining myself?
00:40:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:40:03
Speaker
Do you feel any sense of attachment, sympathy, etc., for any particular character during the movie?
00:40:13
Speaker
I initially intended to ask about Hank specifically, but I am curious because it really is, you know, you're invested in all the characters.
00:40:24
Speaker
You're not just worried about Hank.
00:40:26
Speaker
So do you feel any particular attachment to any of the characters presented?
00:40:32
Speaker
Yeah, I'm trying to think how, which ones maybe was asked about Hank specifically, but I am curious because it really is, you know, you're invested in all the characters.
00:40:44
Speaker
You're not just worried about Hank.
00:40:46
Speaker
So do you feel any particular attachment to any of the characters presented?
00:40:52
Speaker
Yeah, I'm trying to think which ones maybe was particularly the story because Yvonne immediately came to mind.
00:40:59
Speaker
But I don't know how much of that is just my attraction to Zoe Kravitz.
00:41:04
Speaker
Yeah, a little unfair.
00:41:06
Speaker
Yeah, and it's a pretty sexy movie too.
00:41:09
Speaker
I mean, you do really feel for her, especially given where her story goes.
00:41:14
Speaker
Yep, yep.
00:41:16
Speaker
But it's almost more retrospective than it is.
00:41:19
Speaker
Well...
00:41:20
Speaker
You know what?
00:41:21
Speaker
I would say the movie actually does a good job with her because she was really pushing Hank to clean up his act and be the Hank that I think we all want Hank to be.
00:41:30
Speaker
Yes, yes, yes.
00:41:32
Speaker
So I do feel for Yvonne, and I do feel – I don't know if Hank's mother plays a role at all in the book.
00:41:41
Speaker
Very small in the movie, but –
00:41:43
Speaker
but fairly pivotal throughout.
00:41:44
Speaker
She's sort of Hank's biggest cheerleader, regardless of what's going on.
00:41:48
Speaker
And then it really, really pays off for her in this really awesome moment at the end that I don't want to spoil.
00:41:55
Speaker
So I would say those two, and I guess the cat, because it's really, if we're talking about levels of innocence and wrong place, wrong time, that poor fucking cat is really in it.
00:42:08
Speaker
Absolutely got the shit end of the stick.
00:42:10
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:10
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:10
Speaker
Yeah, no kidding.
00:42:12
Speaker
But anyway, the rest of the characters, Hank, I very much feel was a wrong place, wrong time.
00:42:18
Speaker
I think maybe more.
00:42:19
Speaker
It sounds like maybe I feel that way more than you do.
00:42:22
Speaker
But I think he also makes bad decisions in the follow up.
00:42:27
Speaker
Yeah, yep.
00:42:28
Speaker
That's the only thing that really tanks that.
00:42:31
Speaker
Otherwise, I would 100% say wrong place, wrong time.
00:42:34
Speaker
And that's it.
00:42:36
Speaker
But otherwise, yeah, I was not really endeared to anybody besides, I guess, these ladies sort of orbiting Hank that he put at risk.
00:42:45
Speaker
And they are, I almost wonder about that because lines...
00:42:50
Speaker
And like page time, I guess there's not a direct correlation to screen time.
00:42:55
Speaker
You hear almost the same amount from Hank's mom and Yvonne in the book, that being relatively little for both.
00:43:04
Speaker
Interesting.
00:43:05
Speaker
No, I mean, that's a good answer.
00:43:06
Speaker
That's a good answer.
00:43:07
Speaker
You sort of touched on it in the beginning, and I think you kind of said the same thing.
00:43:10
Speaker
You said sort of Yvonne, right?
00:43:12
Speaker
And the cat.
00:43:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:43:13
Speaker
Yeah, certainly.
00:43:14
Speaker
I mean, again, Yvonne, I think you were more fair to her than I was.
00:43:20
Speaker
Yes, he's acting like a deadbeat, but she's not condoning that activity.
00:43:25
Speaker
She's saying, you know, we can get along and have a relationship anyway.
00:43:29
Speaker
Also, like, wouldn't hurt you to clean up your act.
00:43:31
Speaker
So I think that was a more just assessment on your part than I gave her initially.
00:43:38
Speaker
Okay, interesting.
00:43:40
Speaker
Okay, here's one of my questions that we've also kind of touched on already.
00:43:44
Speaker
And I might have to do a little bit of background explaining here.
00:43:47
Speaker
How do you feel about the connection between the lessons Hank learned about the drunk driving accident and the lessons he learns in this story?
00:43:57
Speaker
Because they kept going back to this idea of like, he needs to learn to take accountability.
00:44:03
Speaker
And I just...
00:44:04
Speaker
The crux of this movie is so wrong place, wrong time that I just don't see those two lessons really lining up.
00:44:12
Speaker
He's accountable for the drunk driving, obviously.
00:44:15
Speaker
He was drinking and driving and should not have been.
00:44:18
Speaker
He is not responsible, not 100% responsible for the chaos that ensues in this movie, in my opinion.
00:44:27
Speaker
Okay.
00:44:29
Speaker
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree.
00:44:32
Speaker
This is a delicious little morsel of a question.
00:44:36
Speaker
And I think what led me to... What is the deal with these antiheroes?
00:44:42
Speaker
Why are we drawn to them?
00:44:45
Speaker
Because in my humble opinion... With the disclaimer I seem to give every episode.
00:44:52
Speaker
Perhaps I'm just a dense reader.
00:44:55
Speaker
One, I feel that the crux of him as...
00:45:02
Speaker
not the cookie cutter hero is that I don't think he particularly learned what he should have from the driving incident.
00:45:13
Speaker
Right.
00:45:14
Speaker
Until later.
00:45:15
Speaker
Well, the Hank I feel I'm presented with is he literally ran away from the problem and chose the bottle over trying to straighten out, you know, dreams unfulfilled ravaged from him against his control.
00:45:33
Speaker
Right.
00:45:34
Speaker
This stellar pro baseball career taken away from him by someone else making a dumb mistake on the field.
00:45:40
Speaker
Then he goes and makes a dumb mistake.
00:45:41
Speaker
Right.
00:45:42
Speaker
Then instead of, I don't know, picking himself up by the bootstraps, whatever analogy you wish, he essentially tries to drink himself to death slowly.
00:45:53
Speaker
And I think there's a storyline you are expecting, which is along the lines of this question, that he'll learn from these events.
00:46:01
Speaker
And what I watched unfold was a clear high road in front of him, and he chose the other.
00:46:07
Speaker
Okay.
00:46:08
Speaker
Okay.
00:46:09
Speaker
And again, that is entirely based on an event that perhaps we'll have to talk about off mic because it would spoil a lot of it.
00:46:18
Speaker
But I see him as a dynamic character in the wrong direction.
00:46:25
Speaker
Interesting.
00:46:26
Speaker
I'm really interested to hear what you have to say after seeing the movie this afternoon.
00:46:31
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:46:33
Speaker
I'm getting more curious by the minute now.
00:46:36
Speaker
Like, did we perceive the same story?
00:46:40
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, no kidding.
00:46:44
Speaker
Like reading it in a photo negative.
00:46:46
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:46:48
Speaker
That's starting to be what it feels like.
00:46:50
Speaker
Are you ready for my second question?
00:46:53
Speaker
Yes, I am.
00:46:54
Speaker
Okay, I am curious how this literary device translates to the screen, and we've certainly discussed it a bit at this point.
00:47:04
Speaker
In my experience, these characters are immediately evident in books because the text relies so heavily on these vivid descriptions, right?
00:47:14
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's fully told, not shown because you're shown nothing.
00:47:20
Speaker
You're creating this universe in your imagination.
00:47:24
Speaker
And the example was exactly what I brought up earlier.
00:47:26
Speaker
Cusco from Emperor's New Groove.
00:47:30
Speaker
You're you're shown this playful llama, dude.
00:47:33
Speaker
You're not sitting there necessarily loathing this man.
00:47:37
Speaker
Right.
00:47:38
Speaker
Where this guy, as I'm reading and being given these vivid descriptions of his words and his actions, I'm like, yeah, this guy sucks.
00:47:48
Speaker
I don't even want to say anti-hero.
00:47:50
Speaker
He's just anti-hero.
00:47:51
Speaker
Right?
00:47:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:47:53
Speaker
Okay.
00:47:54
Speaker
When they bring that to film, does it muddy the waters somewhat for that analysis on your part?
00:48:01
Speaker
Or do I just not understand?
00:48:03
Speaker
Because when I'm watching movies, I do not immediately perceive these things.
00:48:07
Speaker
But you are far better versed than I. I think when you say muddy the waters, do you mean like do they make him a little bit more likable?
00:48:18
Speaker
Yes, exactly.
00:48:19
Speaker
Exactly.
00:48:20
Speaker
Okay, then I think the answer is yes, they do muddy the waters.
00:48:23
Speaker
Part of that is that they cast Austin Butler, who's like super charismatic and blah, blah, blah, whatever, you know, a movie star and all that.
00:48:31
Speaker
But they do also, I think one of the drawbacks of having the shorter runtime is that...
00:48:37
Speaker
we're not given a lot of time to get to know him as kind of the loser that he is.
00:48:42
Speaker
I mean, it's implied that he drinks a lot, a lot more than he should.
00:48:46
Speaker
And he's working as a bartender and that's his only means of income.
00:48:50
Speaker
And, and he's,
00:48:52
Speaker
Kind of noncommittal towards Yvonne.
00:48:56
Speaker
So I think, yeah, I think a huge part of it is casting.
00:49:00
Speaker
But you also, I mean, you kind of have to get on board.
00:49:03
Speaker
That's the protagonist you're given.
00:49:05
Speaker
I guess I would compare him a little bit in the movie, like the structure of his character arc to like Ebenezer Scrooge, I think is also a classic character.
00:49:17
Speaker
anti-hero everything you see him say and do sucks and then you're watching him learn these lessons throughout yes yes no you hit the nail on the head you're correct and you're watching him learn these lessons very literally quite literally learn lessons by reliving his past basically from a different perspective and what happens in a christmas carol doesn't
00:49:42
Speaker
that doesn't necessarily happen in cod stealing is that he comes out like the, the, everything is tied up in a nice package and he comes out a better, better guy having learned the appropriate lessons that he was supposed to learn.
00:49:56
Speaker
Yes.
00:49:57
Speaker
So it is, I mean, I felt, I guess, I don't know what the ending of the movie was like it.
00:50:01
Speaker
Side note to what you just said.
00:50:03
Speaker
It felt like implied continued story.
00:50:07
Speaker
I believe it is the first of a series of books that,
00:50:11
Speaker
I would be stunned if they make more movies.
00:50:14
Speaker
No, that's interesting.
00:50:15
Speaker
That's a crazy comparison, but now it's really got my brain ticking.
00:50:19
Speaker
Him to Scrooge.
00:50:21
Speaker
Yeah, I was sort of waiting for you to mention that when you were talking about antiheroes, because he's sort of, I think, what you would call a classic antihero archetype that you're endeared to by the end.
00:50:36
Speaker
It's probably a very classic antihero tale.
00:50:40
Speaker
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
00:50:43
Speaker
Great discussion.
00:50:44
Speaker
Let's talk recommendations and ratings.
00:50:48
Speaker
Do you recommend this book to anybody?
00:50:51
Speaker
And if so, who?
00:50:53
Speaker
What kind of reader?
00:50:55
Speaker
Yeah, that's tough.
00:50:56
Speaker
I don't...
00:50:58
Speaker
Because, again, as we've discussed previously, I'm always thinking about who would I recommend this to?
00:51:03
Speaker
What are my friends' wheelhouses?
00:51:06
Speaker
I don't have a lot of friends that are just sitting around reading the classic action films, you know, the Bourne series or something like that, which is I feel like the closest you could get to this.
00:51:23
Speaker
Sure.
00:51:23
Speaker
Yeah.
00:51:23
Speaker
You know what I mean?
00:51:26
Speaker
I think if someone said, yeah, I've got a flight.
00:51:29
Speaker
I just want to book, you know, not not fully a beach read, but you have you have the exact intersection of time to digest and consider a little bit.
00:51:42
Speaker
But also, you're not looking for this big, heavy hitter.
00:51:45
Speaker
I think that's where this text falls for me.
00:51:48
Speaker
Totally.
00:51:50
Speaker
Totally.
00:51:51
Speaker
Because once again, without the research and reflection that I've given it, if it were just something I picked up on a stand on the side of the road and read through it, I don't think I would give this book a second thought after.
00:52:10
Speaker
Yeah, I totally agree with you.
00:52:13
Speaker
I think the movie, I mean, I'll talk about this a little bit more in my ratings spiel here in a second.
00:52:19
Speaker
But yeah, if I had not, or if we were not having this conversation about it today, it would not have remained in my consciousness like post drive home from the movie theater.
00:52:31
Speaker
Yes, exactly.
00:52:32
Speaker
Exactly.
00:52:32
Speaker
Yes.
00:52:33
Speaker
Exactly.
00:52:35
Speaker
I did want to circle back around to some movies that I think it's similar to, like I mentioned at the top.
00:52:43
Speaker
I do think this movie is for fans of movies like most notably After Hours, which is a Scorsese movie.
00:52:50
Speaker
And Leon the Professional was one that I thought had some similarities to this just because it's like a city traversing action thriller, I guess.
00:53:03
Speaker
Gangster films like The Godfather and Goodfellas, you might find something here that you like.
00:53:08
Speaker
Pulp Fiction, No Country for Old Men, just sort of like dude movies where there's a lot of kicking and punching and shooting and...
00:53:16
Speaker
sometimes blowing stuff up.
00:53:18
Speaker
It's not really on the level of any of those movies that I just mentioned, but it, you know, like DNA wise, it's sort of in line with them.
00:53:26
Speaker
I can see that.
00:53:27
Speaker
It also made me think a lot about Guy Ritchie movies because he makes those sort of dude movies where people are just punching the crap out of somebody.
00:53:36
Speaker
And he does do a lot of crime thrillers.
00:53:38
Speaker
I think that there's a world where Guy Ritchie would have made this movie.
00:53:41
Speaker
And if he,
00:53:42
Speaker
had been you know 10 or 20 years ago it would have maybe been a much much better movie than it ultimately came out to be uh i i want to adamantly agree with that throughout the book and of course as you know it's the only guy ritchie movie i ever remember is one of his very reminiscent of lock stock and two smoking barrels yeah yeah totally
00:54:07
Speaker
Really that same vibe.
00:54:09
Speaker
Totally.
00:54:10
Speaker
It's not very often that I'm watching a movie and I'm like, you know who would have directed the hell out of this?
00:54:16
Speaker
This guy that hasn't made a good movie in 10 years.
00:54:18
Speaker
And I literally thought that.
00:54:20
Speaker
And that's why it's so interesting that it's a weird turn for Aronofsky because I'm like, what did you see in this that somebody else, somebody didn't read this script and go, well, we need Guy Ritchie, obviously.
00:54:32
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:54:34
Speaker
I don't know.
00:54:35
Speaker
Kind of funny.
00:54:36
Speaker
What did you read the book?
00:54:38
Speaker
This was the sturdiest of three out of fives I could possibly imagine.
00:54:43
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:54:45
Speaker
Even if we were not covering it for this show, I absolutely would have finished it.
00:54:52
Speaker
But as you know, five is the coveted position of I will have to read this again, which I will never read this again.
00:54:59
Speaker
And four is really, I've got some great people I want to recommend this to.
00:55:03
Speaker
There was really a lot here that I will discuss with others and delve more into.
00:55:09
Speaker
No, this was a book I'm not mad that I read, but I will not be purchasing copies to send anyone for Christmas.
00:55:19
Speaker
Yeah.
00:55:20
Speaker
Yeah.
00:55:21
Speaker
What about the movie?
00:55:23
Speaker
Very similar.
00:55:23
Speaker
I gave it 3.5 stars on Letterboxd.
00:55:26
Speaker
And I said in my review that it's the best streaming movie of the year, which was obviously a joke because it wasn't a streaming movie.
00:55:34
Speaker
Yeah, sorry, Darren Aronofsky.
00:55:36
Speaker
I genuinely believe that had it been released on streaming, it would have been better received because, you know, your expectations when you click on like a Netflix original are a little bit lower than...
00:55:47
Speaker
when you pay money to see it.
00:55:49
Speaker
And like you said, it's sort of like a good airplane movie because you just, you can check in and out and you're not necessarily looking for something that's going to take you on an emotional rollercoaster ride.
00:56:02
Speaker
And this movie is certainly not bad, but when the end of the year comes around and I make my like,
00:56:08
Speaker
personal best of 2025 list on Letterboxd of Movies, this is not going to be anywhere near that list.
00:56:14
Speaker
So like you said, pretty sturdy right down the middle.
00:56:17
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:56:18
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:56:19
Speaker
I wonder, that's going to slowly become our personal litmus test.
00:56:25
Speaker
Is this movie engrossing enough that on an airplane I would miss the lady offering me Biscoffs and ginger ale?
00:56:35
Speaker
Yeah, 100%.
00:56:36
Speaker
I mean, yeah, we talk a lot about airplane books and airport books, or what are they?
00:56:42
Speaker
Yeah, airport book, airport novel.
00:56:44
Speaker
That's the term.
00:56:45
Speaker
There we go.
00:56:46
Speaker
Airport novels and beach reads and the difference between streaming and theatrical movies.
00:56:50
Speaker
And this one will eventually be on Netflix because all Sony movies go to Netflix.
00:56:55
Speaker
I'm interested to see if it does well, both on Netflix and on like on demand, you know, renting on iTunes and Amazon.
00:57:03
Speaker
Because I think maybe it just didn't look good enough for people to leave the house, but they might be more interested when they can watch it from their couch.
00:57:11
Speaker
No, I mean, this is just the modernization, right?
00:57:13
Speaker
Previous generations had their dime store novels.
00:57:16
Speaker
We have Guy Ritchie Light.
00:57:20
Speaker
Yeah, we have, I wish it was Guy Ritchie.
00:57:24
Speaker
Can't believe it's not Guy Ritchie.
00:57:26
Speaker
I can't believe it's not Guy Ritchie.
00:57:28
Speaker
I'm just picturing a weird British guy in a tracksuit sitting in a tub of margarine.
00:57:33
Speaker
Yeah, well, very interesting.
00:57:35
Speaker
I'm glad that we were both on the same page.
00:57:37
Speaker
Yet again, we do have to find one that we're gonna disagree on at some point here.
00:57:42
Speaker
Yeah, but just like Forrest Gump, I'm glad we found one that wasn't like a 10 out of 10 home run.
00:57:48
Speaker
Yep.
00:57:48
Speaker
Yeah, totally.
00:57:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:57:50
Speaker
Next up, a very exciting episode.
00:57:52
Speaker
We will be covering Anthony Burgess's A Clockwork Orange with a film adaptation directed by Stanley Kubrick.
00:57:59
Speaker
And our friend Ariel will be joining us.
00:58:01
Speaker
And that's just bring your seatbelts is all I'm going to say.
00:58:05
Speaker
Man, I have some fun facts lined up already.
00:58:09
Speaker
Some sturdy lore.
00:58:12
Speaker
And that is before we add the Tasmanian devil that is our dear friend.
00:58:19
Speaker
Oh, good.
00:58:20
Speaker
I'm going to send her this episode as prep, and I'm going to say especially the last three minutes.
00:58:26
Speaker
And she's going to come with so much to say back.
00:58:29
Speaker
What is the term?
00:58:32
Speaker
Vin and vinegar?
00:58:33
Speaker
What the heck is the term?
00:58:36
Speaker
What the heck is the term?
00:58:37
Speaker
When you describe someone that's coming in hot, it's like piss and vinegar, maybe?
00:58:44
Speaker
Piss and vinegar?
00:58:45
Speaker
Piss in or pissing?
00:58:45
Speaker
And...
00:58:50
Speaker
I think that's the phrase for someone that really comes in with a lot of vitriol.
00:58:53
Speaker
Oh, they're full of piss and vinegar.
00:58:55
Speaker
Wow, that's crazy.
00:58:57
Speaker
But that's how I would describe Ariel.
00:59:02
Speaker
So please join us for that episode.
00:59:04
Speaker
Thank you for joining us for this one.
00:59:06
Speaker
And we look forward to our next...