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Ep. 29: Lord of the Rings: How Tolkien Launch a Fantasy Masterpiece
54 Plays13 days ago
In this episode of Adaptation: The Book to Movie Podcast, Nate and Chris discuss "The Fellowship of the Ring," the beginnings of J. R. R. Tolkien's famous "Lord of the Rings" trilogy, as well as Peter Jackson's epic film adaptation.
Listen for conversation about what exactly makes Tolkien's writing so alluring, as well as the fun and twisty tale that led to Jackson's films being made.
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Hosts: Nate Day
Producer: Nate Day
"Adaptation Theme"
- Written by: Chris Anderson, Jem Zornow
- Performed by: Chris Anderson, Jem Zornow, Nate Day
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Transcript
Introduction and Platform Update
00:00:01
Nate Day
Welcome to Adaptation, the Book2Movie podcast. I'm Nate.
00:00:05
Chris
And I'm Chris.
00:00:06
Nate Day
And we're coming at you sort of live on video here for the first time. We're on YouTube now. That's exciting. You can check out the link to our YouTube channel down below in the episode description.
Casting in Adaptations vs. Reader Expectations
00:00:21
Nate Day
So I hope our faces match with what you all had imagined because one of the things that sucks about adaptations is when they don't cast somebody that you think looks like the character, right, Chris?
00:00:35
Chris
Oh, that's a good point. That's a very good point. Yeah.
00:00:37
Nate Day
So be lenient, I guess, is what I'm saying.
00:00:41
Chris
I love the idea in that disclaimer that anyone listens to this that doesn't know what our faces look like.
00:00:47
Nate Day
You know what?
Audience Demographics and International Reach
00:00:48
Nate Day
It actually, we just switched over to this new software and it showed us some of the countries where things are being streamed. And I guarantee there's some, there's some strangers listening.
00:00:59
Chris
Oh, all right. Well, now you know what our faces look like. Congratulations.
00:01:03
Nate Day
Yes. Thank you. And sorry.
Introduction to 'The Lord of the Rings' Discussion
00:01:05
Nate Day
today, today we're discussing one of Chris's favorite books ever. Chris, what are we talking about?
00:01:12
Chris
Yeah, we are finally digging into the full trilogy, upgrading from The Hobbit, and we have moved on to The Lord of the Rings, starting with number one, The Fellowship of the Rings.
00:01:24
Nate Day
That's right. And we plan to cover them probably one a year for the next, I guess, this year and then the following two. But because they are one of Chris's favorites, they're definitely one that we have a lot of reverence for, ones that we might find a way to weasel in a couple extra conversations or mini episodes,
Approach to Covering 'The Lord of the Rings'
00:01:43
Nate Day
something like that. So if you want to hear more about our thoughts on The Lord of the Rings, be sure to let us know.
00:01:50
Nate Day
I'm sure we'd be more than happy to oblige.
00:01:54
Chris
Certainly, certainly. Well, and that's, I think to a certain extent, that's why we've waited this long to get to them because it's almost too obvious, right?
00:02:02
Nate Day
Right. Yep. Two white guys talking about books and movies.
00:02:08
Nate Day
But besides Lord of the Rings, what have you been reading lately?
Technical Adjustments and Software Discussion
00:02:13
Chris
so my book just finished one. This was so
Review: 'There Is No Anti-Memetics Division'
00:02:17
Chris
strange. It's called There Is No Anti-Memetics Division.
00:02:20
Chris
It's
00:02:21
Nate Day
What?
00:02:23
Chris
It's by an author named Quantum. Just spelled Q-N-T-M.
00:02:32
Nate Day
This sounds like AI.
00:02:35
Chris
It's strange. I think the dude's like an actual theoretical physicist or something. And then just started writing fiction. It is...
00:02:45
Chris
Bonkers. It is like this concept that almost like Men in Black style, this government agency going around and protecting humanity by stopping these crazy monsters.
00:02:46
Nate Day
Yeah.
00:02:59
Nate Day
Okay, cool.
00:03:00
Chris
But the monsters are ideas.
00:03:04
Nate Day
Okay.
00:03:06
Chris
So like... can infect move from one host to another just by knowing about it. So they have to like take these drugs to temporarily wipe or temporarily not wipe their memory.
00:03:24
Chris
And then like take notes on a meeting, leave the meeting, have their memory wiped, go back into the meeting, read their own notes and realize that they are this person who holds this position.
00:03:35
Chris
And the meeting is to destroy this thing that's going to try to destroy.
00:03:40
Nate Day
Oh, man.
00:03:41
Chris
I am not going to pretend to have understood the whole thing.
00:03:46
Nate Day
Anything else? Yeah.
00:03:48
Chris
Like, I really thought I was on board. Maybe the first 20%, I was like, okay, this is getting complex, but we're there. One of my favorite books of all time I read a number of years ago is called This Is How You Lose the Time War.
00:04:01
Chris
And it was a similar thing, really difficult to hold it all mentally because you're jumping around so much.
00:04:05
Nate Day
Mm-hmm.
00:04:07
Chris
But this was levels of magnitude crazier. So if you want a a sci-fi...
00:04:19
Chris
shit show scramble like I don't know reader challenge for yourself there is no anti-memetics division crazy book
00:04:28
Nate Day
Yeah, crazy book with a crazy title and a crazy author name.
00:04:33
Chris
I know everything about it there's no point in anything around this entire idea where you feel that you have a grasp on what's happening starting with the author finished like
00:04:42
Nate Day
God, that sounds like it would freak
Review: 'The Bride' and Literary Legacy
00:04:45
Nate Day
me out. Like, give me a stroke.
00:04:48
Chris
I think you would derive zero enjoyment from this book.
00:04:54
Chris
What have you been watching?
00:04:54
Nate Day
Good to know. I saw The Bride. which is that Maggie Gyllenhaal take on The Bride of Frankenstein.
00:05:02
Chris
Oh, the... Yeah, I didn't know that was out.
00:05:05
Nate Day
Yeah. Yeah, it just came out this weekend, actually, that we're recording. I really liked it. I mean, it's definitely a mess narratively. I don't know if you've seen anything online, but it's getting panned pretty hard, which I think is pretty interesting that that comes so close after Wuthering Heights. It's another literary adaptation or semi-adaptation where they're kind of taking some big creative swings and, uh, unfortunately not really sticking the landing, on either one them.
00:05:30
Chris
Uh-huh.
00:05:34
Chris
Well, was there ever a full, I mean, maybe authorized, unauthorized, obviously not from Mary Shelley, but did someone, actually write a Bride of Frankenstein book?
00:05:47
Nate Day
I don't think so. I don't want to spoil the, this movie, but, has a very meta framing device involving Mary Shelley and her legacy.
00:05:59
Chris
Oh, interesting.
00:06:01
Nate Day
if you like Frankenstein, I would encourage you to check it out. It's just kind of a mess narratively, but there's still so much that's really fun about it that I still really kind of liked it. I came away feeling pretty good about it.
00:06:15
Chris
OK.
00:06:15
Nate Day
The
Review: 'The Bluff' and Other Film Discussions
00:06:16
Nate Day
bluff is a new pirate movie on Amazon prime. That's actually fine. Good enough. You guys might get a kick out of that.
00:06:24
Chris
That's actually fine.
00:06:26
Nate Day
yeah I mean, it's a streaming original pirate movie. Of course it's not going to be that great, but,
00:06:31
Chris
Really, a hard sell there, bud.
00:06:34
Nate Day
But you know, if you just don't want to leave the house or whatever, i don't know, it's, it's on there for you. So that's kind of what I've, what I've gotten up to. It's still Oscar season. This is like the longest award season ever.
00:06:46
Nate Day
So not a lot of new movies coming out right now.
00:06:49
Chris
Okay, okay.
Deep Dive: 'The Lord of the Rings' and Tolkien's Influences
00:06:51
Nate Day
But on that note, we have a very famous book and movie to talk about.
00:06:51
Chris
Huh.
00:06:56
Nate Day
So why don't you tell us a little bit about Tolkien's Lord of the Rings?
00:07:02
Chris
Yes. Okay. And I'm very much treating this as you have already listened to the Hobbit episode. So if you haven't, I don't know, pause, go back, listen to that or get back to it later. That is all just to say much of the author discussion we typically open up with. I'm just going to skip. We don't need that on two episodes.
00:07:23
Nate Day
Sure.
00:07:24
Chris
So back with our boy, J.R.R. Tolkien, John Ronald Raul Tolkien. The first edition of The Fellowship of the Ring was published in 1954 in the UK.
00:07:40
Chris
it would be very easy if we treated these like our normal episodes for all four of these Hobbit and the three, the trilogy, uh, to just sound like the same episode. we're really going to try to discuss some different aspects, different facets of, the stories somewhat, but more so the adaptation process, right?
00:08:00
Chris
let's get into it.
00:08:01
Nate Day
Let's.
00:08:04
Chris
So coming from The Hobbit to The Fellowship of the Ring, and I know many people, especially if you weren't a reader of the books film-wise, obviously the trilogy came out before The Hobbit, at least the famous iterations that we primarily are talking about here.
00:08:22
Nate Day
Sure.
00:08:22
Chris
If
Tolkien's Mythology and Craftsmanship
00:08:23
Chris
you were familiar with The Hobbit, as I was, it's this really fun... The ring is essentially a character itself in these tales, right? Representing a lot of stuff.
00:08:35
Chris
Arguably dynamic, I guess not really, but maybe the different parts it manifests So going from kind of just this blip in The Hobbit, it was a cool portion but certainly not central to the story so you can kind of forget it and move on and then you start the fellowship and here's Bilbo and that ring that he found again and I read these back to back somewhere between the ages of eight and ten so a long time ago like 25 years ago
00:09:10
Nate Day
Yeah.
00:09:12
Chris
And at that age, I was just super excited. I was like, oh, the ring is back, the same character that we know. And it was disappointing to me that we kind of immediately shift to this adopted nephew of his, Frodo, which is a crazy take, perhaps, especially if your first experience was the fellowship, that famous shot.
00:09:23
Nate Day
Oh.
00:09:29
Nate Day
Yeah, no kidding.
00:09:32
Chris
You know, Elijah Wood sitting there reading a book under a tree waiting for his friend Gandalf to come down the road.
00:09:36
Nate Day
Yep.
00:09:38
Chris
But that is to say, one of the most fascinating and interesting parts that I'll talk about more a little bit later is that this is such an involved and complex text.
00:09:51
Chris
You get different things and you get more out of it each time, which is simply delightful.
00:09:56
Nate Day
Yeah.
00:09:57
Chris
aspect of tolkien's writing i don't remember how much we discussed in the hobbit but it is critical to like what this universe is about what his writing was about uh tolkien himself was obsessed with the power of myths and folklore throughout virtually every civilization in history right and you know mid 20th century england we're talking like
00:10:15
Nate Day
That tracks. Yeah.
00:10:22
Chris
not prime, but immediately post prime, still certainly the preeminent power in the world. Certainly, still the sun never sets on England, Commonwealth mindset, right?
00:10:34
Chris
Uh,
00:10:34
Nate Day
Right.
00:10:36
Chris
But if you even dip a little bit into like Churchill's very famous histories of the island, all of these massive tales, the Arthurian folklore, Merlin, Beowulf, everything coming from that island for millennia was myths, larger than life characters, right?
00:10:54
Nate Day
Oh, gotcha. Yeah, yeah.
00:10:58
Chris
And disclaimer, obviously, this is a very Western view of literature, right? But you get my point. This was a huge topic for him in what do these mean to people? What is the power that they have? And that really drove his writing. Only becoming really even more of an obsession.
00:11:19
Chris
So he was into this. This was his whole deal growing up. And then he was drafted for World War I, you know, obviously in England. And these stories, you know, the First Great War really...
00:11:27
Nate Day
Sure.
00:11:33
Chris
mean, no war is pretty, right? But World War one famously trenches.
00:11:40
Nate Day
Pretty bad.
00:11:40
Chris
Everyone's getting gangrene. Yeah.
00:11:41
Nate Day
Yep.
00:11:42
Chris
First use of, like, mustard gas and nerve gas, like... Miserable.
The Role of 'The Silmarillion' in Tolkien's Universe
00:11:47
Chris
going to quit trying to paint a picture. We all know. Gross. Bad. And so these returning fantasies of this escape, right?
00:11:50
Nate Day
Yep.
00:11:56
Nate Day
yeah
00:11:57
Chris
And what can it be for you? And that's where these ideas really galvanized for him.
00:12:03
Nate Day
okay
00:12:03
Chris
Okay. The overarching story left virtually untouched by most most everyone, even readers, even fans of Tolkien, so we're zooming in closer and closer to who genuinely just loves this universe, still the majority of them do not touch the Silmarillion.
00:12:23
Nate Day
Right. You have mentioned that one to me.
00:12:26
Chris
I was going to say, I know you're at least somewhat familiar. What is your foreknowledge of that text?
00:12:31
Nate Day
My understanding is that it is for all intents and purposes, if not literally basically an index of the lore around this world.
00:12:41
Nate Day
And I just always think about when you got so excited, you thought they were making a movie you fell for an April Fool's day post.
00:12:50
Chris
Did you read my notes before we started recording?
00:12:53
Nate Day
No.
00:12:55
Chris
That's like... So like two paragraphs later in my notes, that's in parentheses. Nate, do you want to tell them about...
00:12:58
Nate Day
Oh, good.
00:13:01
Chris
God, I was so stoked!
00:13:02
Nate Day
It never leaves my mind. Never leaves my mind.
00:13:06
Chris
Yeah, so what Nate's referring to is an April Fool's joke where someone posted that they were starting the talks to make a film adaptation of The Silmarillion. Which is...
00:13:18
Chris
one twentieth as funny if you have not read The Silmarillion.
00:13:24
Nate Day
Sure.
00:13:25
Chris
The Tolkien fan base memes of comparison are like The Hobbit is literally addition, a kid learning two plus two. The trilogy is maybe algebra or geometry.
00:13:39
Chris
And The Silmarillion is quantum physics.
00:13:42
Nate Day
Oh, barf.
00:13:44
Chris
It is...
00:13:47
Chris
Dozens, maybe even triple digit numbers of characters, literal ages of history of the people of Middle Earth took him decades to write. He built an entire mythology, basically just to have the groundwork for viable universe.
00:14:09
Nate Day
You know what though, props to him because the biggest issue with like genre storytelling is when writers break their own rules.
00:14:09
Chris
Right.
00:14:18
Nate Day
So if you set those strict boundaries, then you can create something as rich as Lord of the Rings.
00:14:19
Chris
Yes.
00:14:23
Chris
Yes. Yes. Are you sure you didn't read my notes?
00:14:27
Nate Day
Yes, I don't look at your stuff.
00:14:29
Chris
Nate's just a paid actor over here. No, no, no. That leads into it.
00:14:33
Nate Day
Okay.
00:14:35
Chris
It leads into it exactly, in fact. So obviously, this is a lot of lead up where we've almost not even talked about the book we're here to talk about today. But these are really the two main points that I wanted to give and perhaps in some capacity explain why this is such a stalwart of Western literature.
00:14:55
Chris
And, I mean, building on that, so naturally lent itself to being objectively fantastic films, right?
00:15:03
Nate Day
Yeah.
Tolkien's Detailed World-Building
00:15:04
Chris
So Tolkien's writing is often accused of being very laborious, spending entire pages describing details like the bark of a tree in The Fellowship.
00:15:14
Nate Day
Right.
00:15:18
Chris
So here's... Oh, this is even better. We finally have... Here's my super cool copy that I found like my second day in Brooklyn in a little free library.
00:15:25
Nate Day
Yeah.
00:15:29
Nate Day
Oh, cool.
00:15:30
Chris
So this one weighs in at just shy of about 450 pages. And I would say, We're, we're something like,
00:15:42
Chris
100 pages in before we're even leaving the Shire.
00:15:45
Nate Day
Oof.
00:15:47
Chris
He takes his time.
00:15:48
Nate Day
Yeah.
00:15:49
Chris
And this is often a criticism of his writing, which I think is more a symptom of what is considered good writing now. Now we're getting into opinions.
00:16:00
Chris
I'm not saying modern fantasy writers are doing an injustice by moving quickly, but that was not his goal, right?
00:16:07
Nate Day
Sure.
00:16:09
Chris
So it spent a lot of time where it almost seems like the narrative is not really developing. But this is his entire goal. He wanted his writing not just to be, we've discussed this term in much fiction, the suspension of reality.
00:16:27
Chris
something is cool enough, believable enough, engrossing enough. you know i think I hope everyone has had the experience at least once of just getting absolutely lost in a book. The world around you melts away. You are locked into this universe.
00:16:41
Nate Day
Yeah.
00:16:43
Chris
He wanted to present such a compellingly watertight world with these rules and descriptions followed so tightly that you could plausibly believe you are reading a genuine history of a faraway land in a long lost past, maybe a different planet, I don't know what, right?
00:17:05
Chris
we are past suspension of reality.
00:17:07
Chris
And that's why He was willing to spend decades writing an entire mythology knowing no one was going to read it, right?
00:17:14
Nate Day
Sure. Yeah.
00:17:16
Chris
And so that's really the basis of this richness, exactly what you alluded to. Never, never, never is there this plot hole where you go, well, wait, that guy was supposed to be here and now he's here, or he said...
00:17:32
Chris
He could do this and then he did this. No, does not happen in this text, in this universe.
00:17:36
Nate Day
Sure.
00:17:38
Chris
Okay. The second, I think, crucial point. We've often discussed authors presenting a character and saying, well, they would do this. They would do that. I think this came up a lot when we got that really cool reply. no. Caught stealing.
00:17:58
Chris
Charlie Hinton? Does that sound right?
00:18:01
Nate Day
Charlie Houston?
00:18:03
Chris
Houston. Charlie Houston. Yes. When we got that cool reply from him.
00:18:06
Nate Day
Yeah.
00:18:07
Chris
And it was like, well, I don't know though if I really wanted you to like that. And we kind of joked about, what do you mean? You're the author. This is like that taken to the nth degree, right?
00:18:20
Chris
He could very reliably say, well, no, based on this character in this clan of dwarves, given their family history going back 3,000 years, which I have in fact written, this is what they would have done, right?
00:18:36
Nate Day
Yeah. Yeah.
00:18:37
Chris
he would have logical support and evidence. You could write fairly academic essays on these characters and why they are doing what they are doing, right? Going as far as, you know, the writing on the ring that I believe in the movie Gandalf reads it at Bag End.
00:18:56
Chris
The language of Mordor, the language of the elves, some of the songs that they're singing, the language of the dwarves in the runes in the tomb in Moria. All of these are fully fleshed out languages that he wrote following grammar rules, following the exact syntax and structure guidelines that real languages have.
00:19:09
Nate Day
Right.
00:19:17
Nate Day
Yeah.
00:19:18
Chris
You could go in and learn these just as an English speaker learns Spanish or French. And as a trained philologist who was a professor at Oxford, he had very much the capacities to do this, right?
00:19:34
Nate Day
Yeah.
00:19:34
Nate Day
What is, hold on. What is a philologist?
00:19:38
Chris
It is beyond just...
00:19:45
Chris
like a linguist is someone who studies languages and how we use it, right?
00:19:51
Nate Day
Sure. Yeah.
00:19:52
Chris
Phylogy is the study of language in oral or written historical sources, right? He did a lot of translation.
00:20:00
Nate Day
Okay. Okay.
00:20:04
Chris
Intimate understanding of language.
00:20:07
Chris
I heard a sort of folklorish tale of when they started writing one of the editions of the Oxford Dictionary, and he was amongst a crew who they just sat down and had them start writing on index cards, just all the words they knew in their definite. Like,
00:20:23
Chris
A degree of knowledge of language that would make Noam Chomsky jealous.
00:20:30
Nate Day
Yeah.
00:20:31
Chris
Also a joke that's not going to land super well, but I'm fine with it. Tucker, I know you're chuckling.
00:20:34
Nate Day
I get it. Yeah.
00:20:36
Chris
Okay, good. I mean, this is a level that nobody does now, right?
00:20:43
Nate Day
Yeah.
00:20:43
Chris
And it's not like it was the tradition and his contemporaries were doing it then either. This is unique, truly.
00:20:49
Nate Day
Right. Mm-hmm.
00:20:51
Chris
The text is so involved with so much going on that I'm not sure exactly what details people would want to hear about.
00:21:02
Chris
This is more to the point of what I was getting at earlier. Famously, Christopher Lee,
00:21:06
Chris
played Saruman in the movies.
00:21:08
Nate Day
Mm-hmm.
00:21:10
Chris
The only member of the cast who actually met Tolkien, I believe while Lee was a student at Oxford. I should have checked all of these things first. I didn't know if you'd know that.
00:21:20
Nate Day
I don't, but I do, I did know that's a pretty famous fact that he was kind of the only person around that knew Tolkien, let alone was like somewhat of a Tolkien scholar and like an armchair expert kind of in, in Tolkien isms.
00:21:34
Nate Day
So they often would defer to him when they were like, what do we do here? They would kind of call up Christopher Lee to ask him his opinion.
00:21:40
Chris
Yes, yes.
00:21:45
Chris
Well, he famously has said, or at least at one point said, he tries to read the entire trilogy once a year.
00:21:51
Nate Day
Yes.
00:21:52
Chris
And i in my way, at least attempt to follow him, I get to it probably every other year or so. And still, every, it's certainly plenty.
00:22:00
Nate Day
That's enough. That's plenty.
00:22:04
Chris
I have Return of the King probably the fewest times, but Fellowship, I've probably read 10 times at this point.
00:22:13
Nate Day
Wow. Damn.
00:22:15
Chris
And I find new stuff every time. Now, I don't know if it's like literally, I had no idea this happened. I don't think that's true.
00:22:22
Nate Day
Right, right.
00:22:22
Chris
But new things highlighted. my evidence of this suggestion that there's new stuff that climbs out each time, it was only last year that it really sunk into me at Bilbo's party, the research leaving, getting delayed, trying to go talk to Saruman, coming back. Gandalf did not know for certain that this was the One Ring.
00:22:47
Nate Day
Oh, either.
00:22:50
Chris
Yeah, right, exactly. I don't think it's super clear in the movie. It is more clear in the book, but still somehow evaded me for, again, nearly two decades of reading and consuming this text.
00:23:01
Nate Day
Yeah.
00:23:04
Chris
There's this brilliance, again, the lack of plot holes. We, especially the pop culture aspect that Lord of the Rings has become, lots of people know lots about this story at this point.
00:23:18
Chris
We are this omniscient observer. I don't know how many, between all three movies and The Hobbit, literally hundreds of times I've watched the films. Yeah.
00:23:29
Chris
you start kind of internalizing all of the information. Like we know how it ends, right? Even the first second that we restart a full watch through every time. But in writing, each character's what they could reasonably have known, what they are discovering, how they would process that information is very compact. They are very real individuals in that sense.
00:23:54
Chris
Again, no slip of how many stories do we have where this confused me as a child. This party has, they have a freaking wizard with them.
00:24:06
Nate Day
Yeah.
00:24:07
Chris
Great. Boom. Magic there. Case closed. Done. Right?
00:24:11
Nate Day
Yeah. You would think.
00:24:13
Chris
No. No, he doesn't do that. Wizard doesn't even know that this is literally the, it's called the one ring. There's, you could not be more explicit about how important this item is. Dude literally dies in this book.
00:24:26
Nate Day
Yeah. Yeah.
00:24:27
Chris
There's none of this Dragon Ball Z, oh, this guy's infallible, invincible, Thanos, snap his fingers, half the world die. No, everybody here is a character that you can get to know, that you can understand their tendencies, their thinking, how they are processing the things that the people around them are doing.
00:24:45
Chris
Just incredible, absolutely incredible.
00:24:49
Chris
And I think that's a trap of a lot of these hero tales that we have now. There's sort of this OP character. And to a certain extent, maybe this is only how I think, but I look at that and I find it quite unsatisfying because it's really, really fun, right?
00:25:03
Chris
At first when they're introduced.
00:25:03
Nate Day
Wrong.
00:25:05
Chris
And then you just go, okay, you had all this buildup, maybe a Rocky training montage.
00:25:09
Nate Day
Yeah.
00:25:12
Chris
They're super powerful now. Now no more problems, right? Yeah. Yeah, that's not fun. It's not a hero's quest if there are not challenges.
00:25:24
Chris
And none of these challenges are easy for them to face.
00:25:28
Chris
Every step of the way, no matter how many times you've reread it, you are still, you read that first chase scene with the ringwraiths, and you're still edge. You're still tense.
00:25:38
Chris
My palms are still sweating. I know exactly how this ends.
00:25:41
Nate Day
Yep.
00:25:43
Chris
This should no longer be an exciting scene. And yet I am enthralled and so excited when they get to Rivendell, when they cross the river and the water comes surging through.
00:25:48
Nate Day
Yeah.
00:25:51
Chris
So good. Okay.
00:25:56
Chris
Soapbox over.
00:25:57
Nate Day
OK.
00:25:58
Chris
I did have one delightful excerpt. I guess this is sort of my... Because I wanted to fish around for samples of what is it that makes it so good.
00:26:10
Chris
But this is not even a terribly emotional tale. But I cried a little bit when I got to it. And again, this was maybe the 10th time reading through, right?
00:26:21
Chris
And this is also part of Tolkien's brilliance.
00:26:24
Chris
There are these little songs people are making up and little poems. And I always picture, yeah, a world in not so recent history for us, you know, I'd Don't know when TVs were invented, but like just over a century ago, nobody had TV.
00:26:40
Chris
We didn't have videos we could watch like this. I couldn't wake up and fire up YouTube.
00:26:42
Nate Day
Right. Right.
00:26:43
Chris
And so this would be far more realistic, right? Sitting at the bar, you and the boys are going to make up a sea shanty to sing while you drink beer.
00:26:51
Nate Day
Yeah.
00:26:51
Chris
I presume.
00:26:53
Nate Day
Yeah.
00:26:54
Chris
And so this is, that is to say my entire argument there. I don't, I've never done that.
00:26:59
Nate Day
Now, you know what, though?
00:27:00
Chris
I don't know why that was my example.
00:27:02
Nate Day
It sounds like something you would do. And watching these movies, I was like, Chris is such a hobbit. You would love to be a hobbit, man.
00:27:09
Chris
Oh, I would love it. Grow a garden, live underground, read your books and smoke a pipe.
00:27:12
Nate Day
Yeah. Smoke, smoke your pipe.
00:27:17
Chris
Oh, yes, yes, obviously, yes.
00:27:22
Nate Day
Yeah.
00:27:23
Chris
But my point with that is his writing was so good and he had such an intimate knowledge of, you know, that... historical, I guess we would say maybe post-Renaissance, we're thinking of like Lord Byron,
00:27:43
Nate Day
Yeah.
00:27:44
Chris
These would be good poems released as a chapbook. No context, not part of the story, right?
00:27:51
Nate Day
Yeah.
00:27:53
Chris
So I'm going to read you some.
00:27:54
Nate Day
Please.
00:27:57
Chris
Picture, picture, you're at a picnic table in the meadow. There's a little stream going by.
00:28:01
Nate Day
OK.
00:28:03
Nate Day
Mm-hmm.
00:28:04
Chris
You've got a gluten-free beer in your hand, obviously.
00:28:07
Nate Day
Yes, I do.
00:28:08
Chris
Your eyes are open.
00:28:08
Nate Day
huh.
00:28:09
Chris
You're not picturing this.
00:28:09
Nate Day
Sorry. Okay. Okay. Yes, I am. Sorry.
00:28:13
Chris
And Bilbo sits down next to you and he says, I've been here in Rivendell for a while waiting for you. I've written some verses.
00:28:19
Nate Day
Okay.
00:28:23
Chris
From Ever Evan's lofty hills, where softly silver fountains fall, his wings him bore a wandering light beyond the mighty mountain wall. From world's end, then he turned away and yearned again to find afar, his home through shadows journeying and burning as an island star.
00:28:39
Chris
On high above the mist he came a distant flame before the sun, wonder ere the walking down, where gray and northland waters run. And over Middle-earth he passed, and heard at last the weeping sore, Of women and of elven maids of elder days in years of yore.
00:28:55
Chris
But on him mighty doom was laid till moon should fade in orbit star, To pass and tarry nevermore on hither shores where mortals are, Forever still a herald on an errand that should never rest, To bear his shining lamp afar, the flammaphore of westernness.
00:29:14
Nate Day
Good stuff.
00:29:16
Chris
Come on. I have chills. i don't know how many times I've read this. I have chills. how many of these things could be discarded, could be a throwaway.
00:29:23
Nate Day
It wild.
00:29:30
Nate Day
Right.
00:29:32
Chris
That has arguably nothing to do with the plot, right? They are they are in Rivendell to discuss how to stop this guy from ending the world.
00:29:41
Nate Day
Yep.
00:29:42
Chris
And Bilbo's like, hey, I wrote a poem. You want to hear it?
00:29:47
Nate Day
Because he's 111 years old.
00:29:48
Chris
And it's...
00:29:48
Nate Day
Yeah. Yeah, did
00:29:55
Nate Day
yeah
00:29:57
Chris
Yeah, again, we've talked about this with some texts where it requires so much brainpower to stay...
00:30:06
Chris
with it to stay focused and it gets a little bit lengthy i mean wuthering heights we just talked about this where there it became a chore this this is just a pleasure yeah god brilliant writing i have i've talked for far too long already but that that's
00:30:17
Nate Day
Yeah. Cool.
00:30:27
Chris
Plot points, spoilers. If you are not familiar with what happens in The Fellowship of the Ring already, that's your fault.
00:30:34
Nate Day
Yeah.
00:30:34
Chris
Pause the podcast. Go fix it. Watch the movie. Come back.
00:30:38
Nate Day
Yeah.
00:30:39
Chris
That's not worth our time to discuss here and now.
00:30:43
Nate Day
Agreed. Agreed. And thank you for all of that information. We're going to potentially take a quick break. We're on a new service, so I'm not sure if ads are going to get inserted here or not. But we're going to build a space just in case. So stick around, and we'll be right back.
00:31:02
Nate Day
And we're back with The Fellowship of the Ring written by Tolkien and that fantastic rundown from Chris. And now I'm going to talk a little bit about the movie, which is obviously extremely famous. I don't know that. Kind of like you said right before that break, if you haven't seen it, I don't. really know what to tell you.
00:31:23
Nate Day
It's not even like a fandom thing.
00:31:23
Chris
Where have you been hiding?
00:31:25
Nate Day
It's kind of like, how did you escape it? Yeah. It's a little.
00:31:28
Chris
Five kids at home, and my parents still went to the midnight showings of these movies.
00:31:34
Nate Day
wow.
00:31:36
Chris
Before you dive in, I have waited so long to hear your thoughts on this movie.
00:31:36
Nate Day
Yeah.
00:31:40
Chris
I am very excited.
00:31:41
Nate Day
Yeah. I've been excited for this episode because I know how much these, these books and movies mean to you. But I mean, to put you at ease, I think the movies are brilliant.
00:31:50
Nate Day
And I'll explain that more as we move through them here.
00:31:55
Chris
Good.
00:31:55
Nate Day
They're a little bit complicated to talk about because they were all filmed at once, which I'll kind of explain in a minute here. But similar to, i think we talked about this a little bit in the Wicked episode.
00:32:08
Nate Day
It's tough sometimes to like, discern what resources went to what movie because everything was filmed at once. So it's a little bit of a sticky conversation when it gets to like money and timelines and stuff because everything was being made at once.
00:32:20
Chris
Mm-hmm.
00:32:21
Nate Day
But,
00:32:22
Chris
Mm-hmm.
00:32:23
Nate Day
Very notable, I think, because there are surprisingly few adaptations of Lord of the Rings overall. It was considered, i think we talked about this in Hobbit episode too, it was considered unadaptable, largely because of the massive scale of these movies and how deeply high fantasy this is you know There's very few people that can kind of appear as humans in these movies, so it's really difficult to realize that kind of thing on camera, especially...
00:32:47
Chris
Mm-hmm.
00:32:52
Nate Day
beginning, you know, in potentially 19, what'd you say, 1954 it was published? That's like a no-go for fantasy filmmaking, basically. High fantasy filmmaking.
00:33:06
Nate Day
Yeah. Oh, rough. Yeah. Uh, there were a few adaptations that, uh, came out of non-English language speaking countries or non-English language first speaking countries that were mostly on television. Some of them were like, what's it called when you like tape a stage production and broadcast it on television, uh, notably Sweden, Finland, and the Soviet union actually were kind of some of the first ones to, to like beat.
00:33:35
Nate Day
you know, Western countries to the punch when it comes to adapting these. Just kind of interesting fact to throw out.
00:33:40
Chris
Interesting.
00:33:41
Nate Day
Yeah. And then there is a handful of animated versions that have come out over the years from America and Britain. Some of them cover certain parts of the entire Lord of the Rings, and some of them just cover, you know, these sort of chapters that that Tolkien broke his story out into the most famous one came out, I think in 78 and covers both fellowship of the ring and the two towers, which is the next installment. And we'll talk about that in depth, at a later date, but, but that movie did come out to mixed reviews, which is kind of interesting that, you know, it didn't really like ride the coattails of this massively successful critical Marvel that the books were right.
00:34:29
Chris
Yeah,
00:34:30
Nate Day
sparse in terms of adaptations, especially ones that sort of cracked into the mainstream.
00:34:34
Nate Day
And we didn't get a true live action adaptation until 2001, when Peter Jackson's adaptation, the first of the trilogy, hit theaters.
00:34:45
Nate Day
He co-wrote that movie with Fran Walsh, his partner, and Philippa Boyens, who my understanding is she's fairly well-known as a Tolkien scholar.
00:34:49
Chris
Mm-hmm.
00:34:53
Nate Day
I think she's pretty well-known within, I don't know if that name rings a bell for you, Chris, but I think a lot of fans of Tolkien know pretty well who Philippa Boyens is, you know, in 2020, whatever we live in.
00:35:08
Nate Day
The way these movies came about is kind of interesting. Beginning in 95, Peter Jackson was trying to develop a high fantasy movie in order to keep his special effects business alive.
00:35:20
Nate Day
They're really expensive to run. They need these big projects. If you don't get hired, you don't make money and you have to shutter. So he was just trying to come up with all kinds of ideas, but everything he was making, he felt was extremely derivative of Lord of the Rings.
00:35:34
Nate Day
And so he kind of just did what no other filmmaker wanted to do and like buckled down and figured out he was like, well, I might as well just make the Lord of the Rings.
00:35:43
Nate Day
So, so he kind of got to work.
00:35:44
Chris
Oh my gosh.
00:35:46
Nate Day
Yeah. And, and it's a really complicated story of how it came to the screen. And I'm going to skip over most of it because a lot of it involves Harvey Weinstein actually kind of being the evil bully bulldog that he was, but that is how they ended up landing the rights is because Harvey Weinstein did his,
00:36:05
Nate Day
thing and sort of push them out of where they were.
00:36:05
Chris
Jesus.
00:36:07
Nate Day
It's really sick. I mean, he like blocked Ashley Judd and somebody else from starring in this movie, and those are women that he, of course, you know, assaulted.
00:36:23
Chris
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:36:24
Nate Day
Anyway, was being developed for his company Miramax as two movies. They were going to cover fellowship and the two towers in one movie and then give a solo movie to return of the King
00:36:38
Chris
Wait, wait. So no one's touched this because it's considered too big a project. So they come in and say, let's combine two of the boat. That was their initial plan.
00:36:48
Nate Day
yeah, well, yeah, it wasn't, I mean, the idea is like the more you combine, the more you cut kind of thing.
00:36:55
Chris
Okay.
00:36:55
Chris
Okay. Okay.
00:36:57
Nate Day
It's yeah, I mean, it's tough and it's complicated, but eventually stuff with Weinstein got extremely dramatic. It doesn't seem like he really had his mind, which like not a huge surprise. His mind wrapped around what this story was or could be. And then Peter Jackson and co eventually switched to New Line, film studio, was really desperate for franchises so they developed it into three movies instead of just two which obviously was the right move for so many reasons these are true ensemble films they have just enormous casts because they have an enormous
00:37:25
Chris
Mm-hmm. Yep.
00:37:34
Chris
Enormous casts.
00:37:35
Nate Day
cast of characters.
00:37:35
Chris
Yeah.
00:37:36
Nate Day
Yeah. And I think what's really interesting here is I was like, well, I'll just throw in, you know, like the three or four big names in, in the notes here. But I, every single time I wrote down a name and then scroll through IMDb, I was like, wait, that person too.
00:37:50
Nate Day
And that person too. And that person too.
00:37:52
Chris
Mm-hmm.
00:37:52
Nate Day
So here's the, what I would consider the main cast of pretty much all three films. And they're all actors that made names for themselves outside of this franchise as well.
00:38:01
Nate Day
Again, super impressive because it's not like we really see Mark Hamill or the guy whose name I'm blanking that plays Anakin Skywalker.
00:38:11
Nate Day
That's not a huge thing. Sometimes these franchises can totally dominate somebody's career. So just to throw a lot of them out there, Elijah Wood, you mentioned. Ian McKellen, obviously famous for the X-Men, and he's a Shakespearean actor. Sean Astin, who the president of the Screen Actors Guild right now,
00:38:31
Chris
Massive.
00:38:31
Nate Day
I know.
00:38:32
Chris
Big day for Sam Gamgee.
00:38:33
Nate Day
Every day is a big day for Samwise Gamgee. Christopher Lee, like you said, rest in peace.
00:38:38
Chris
Every day.
00:38:52
Chris
Mm-hmm.
00:39:01
Nate Day
There were several changes made to Tolkien's story, but they were done so to compress it and to make it filmable and digestible to audiences, kind of like what we just talked about. Like they tried to combine the movies thinking that that was sort of the path to do that. And it sounds to me like I did a little bit of research on the specific changes.
00:39:23
Nate Day
I don't personally find any of them to be big major changes, but I will say that some fans see and Tolkien scholars actually kind of argue about whether these movies can even be considered faithful adaptations because of some of the changes they made.
00:39:29
Chris
Thank
00:39:40
Nate Day
And it sounds to me, correct me if I'm wrong, it sounds like that criticism sort of comes in the context of of the trilogy as a whole rather than any one specific movie.
00:39:51
Nate Day
Like it's big thematic things. The major thing that I saw was that the movies are criticized for focusing too much on action scenes, which is a very Peter Jackson thing to do, as well as that sort of operatic hero's journey, as opposed to some of the sort of psychological impacts that these things have.
00:40:09
Nate Day
So I think it's like a bigger picture disparity than more so than any one of these three films. Is that kind of accurate?
00:40:18
Chris
Yes, that's a great synopsis, yes.
00:40:20
Nate Day
Okay. Yeah, so I didn't even list any of the specific changes because as someone who has not read the books, a lot of it was like cutting out characters, sequences, locations that I just don't, I don't have the tools to talk about because I don't know what the hell I read, to be honest.
00:40:36
Chris
It doesn't exist for you.
00:40:37
Nate Day
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So kind of interesting that these movies are so, so huge. And I didn't, actually didn't know this, that some Tolkien scholars think of them as unfaithful. And it's,
00:40:50
Nate Day
You know, it's understandable, I guess, but also, like, boy, I don't know if you're on the right side of history there. Filming took place across New Zealand, which is where Peter Jackson is from, and that sort of set a standard for blockbuster filmmaking in that part of the world. There's a lot of biodiversity in New Zealand. You know, you've got a lot of those kind of like rolling hills that these movies are famous for. Just a lot of open space, really, where you can do something like this. You can build just a freaking truckload of sets.
00:41:21
Chris
The entirety of
00:41:23
Nate Day
Yes, yeah, exactly. There's just, there's space and resources down there that we don't have in like, you know, North America. And I imagine at this point, maybe even back then, that a huge incentive is tax breaks. That's a huge reason why movies often film in places that seem sort of strange is because they they bring a lot of work to wherever they are filming and and stimulate the economy so they get tax breaks. And one example of that that I thought was really fun for these movies is that the the score features the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra as well as a
00:42:00
Nate Day
Maori Samoan choir in the score.
00:42:04
Chris
I did not know that.
00:42:11
Chris
Mm-hmm.
00:42:27
Nate Day
you can go and see some of the sets and the costumes and there's like this sort of museum, uh, aspect to, going to New Zealand.
00:42:31
Chris
Yeah,
00:42:39
Chris
yeah, yeah.
00:42:40
Chris
Oh, so cool.
00:42:41
Nate Day
yeah.
00:42:41
Nate Day
Would you do that someday?
00:42:43
Chris
100%. I mean, obviously, I want to get to New Zealand anyway, because rugby.
00:42:47
Nate Day
Yeah, right.
00:42:48
Chris
But, like, the fact that, yeah, all of this was there, too. I mean, I'm first and foremost a fan of the books. So I think... I'm an oddity less of an appeal for me, but yes, of course, I'm going to go see it whenever I get there.
00:43:02
Nate Day
Yeah, we should do an adaptation field trip.
00:43:05
Chris
Yeah. Oh, that's a great idea.
00:43:08
Nate Day
Yeah. Budget, again, like I said, hard to nail it down. Exactly, because they were all filmed so close together. But it's estimated that it's around $93 million, which is actually really low compared to today's blockbusters.
00:43:40
Chris
Jeez.
00:43:41
Nate Day
becoming extremely financially successful for, for new line.
00:43:45
Chris
was years ago.
00:43:46
Nate Day
Yeah, exactly. And it's not, you know, that was just us and Canada. It set opening weekend records at the box office in, in many countries around the world.
00:43:56
Nate Day
I mean, you could kind of throw a dart at a map and wherever it lands, there's like fellowship of the ring is kind of in their top 10, 15, 20 box office opening weekends of all time, because this movie was just big, big, big.
00:44:09
Chris
Wow.
00:44:10
Nate Day
Yeah. Yeah. And then of course it's a major success critically as well. Hailed as a masterpiece of, especially of fantasy filmmaking. And you know, it's, it appears on all kinds of people's like best of all time lists and is preserved in the library of Congress for its cultural significance. This movie's a, it's a big deal. that's why I say at the beginning, if haven't seen it, I don't really, I'm just like really dumbfounded by that.
00:44:36
Chris
Like genuinely how?
00:44:37
Nate Day
Yeah. 13 Oscar nominations, pretty big number. Four wins.
00:44:41
Chris
Wow.
00:44:42
Nate Day
Yeah, won four of those for cinematography, makeup, score, and visual effects. But I also wanted to give a shout out to the fact that it got a lot of nominations above the line as well, including Best Picture, Best Director for Peter Jackson, and Best Supporting Actor for ian McKellen, which I think is a really fun nomination.
00:45:01
Chris
Heck yeah.
00:45:02
Nate Day
Yeah, yeah.
00:45:03
Chris
Heck yeah. That dude is so good. So good.
00:45:05
Nate Day
Yeah, I know. And then I have a handful of sort of fun facts here that just kind of go to show how no stone was left unturned with, with making these movies. first of all, costumes and weapons were based on era appropriate designs.
00:45:22
Nate Day
You know, this obviously is a world that didn't exist, and I couldn't tell you what era of planet Earth it's most similar to.
00:45:27
Chris
The second age of Middle Earth.
00:45:29
Nate Day
yeah, okay. But, you know, all of the weapons and everything were made to be very believable for this fantasy world.
00:45:42
Chris
Yeah.
00:45:48
Nate Day
look like they were real people's clothing instead of like they just came off of a clothing rack.
00:45:55
Chris
Oh my gosh.
00:45:56
Nate Day
They trained all of the actors to correctly pronounce the names and locations and things like that, which is huge because, like you said, it's several fake languages and nothing grinds my gears more in a movie than when two actors are pronouncing things differently.
00:46:13
Nate Day
I'm like, who didn't come up with a consensus?
00:46:14
Chris
Yep.
00:46:15
Nate Day
How did you not...
00:46:16
Chris
No one checked this.
00:46:16
Nate Day
iron this one tiny thing out. So I love that they did that.
00:46:19
Chris
Yep.
00:46:20
Nate Day
The sets were built at several scales so that short characters could appear short and tall characters could appear tall, which is to say that there are sets of like the Hobbit hole that are really tiny so that Ian McKellen could look like a giant while he's filming his scenes. And then there's sets of them that are huge and massive so that like Ian Holm and Elijah Wood look teeny tiny while they're standing in them. And then they kind of mash up those scenes in post-production.
00:46:48
Nate Day
Super cool. So clever. I just, I don't know how they did this for under hundred million. don't know how they did this for under
00:46:54
Nate Day
then I thought one last little fun fact here.
00:46:54
Chris
shoot
00:46:56
Nate Day
Some of the creatures, especially in the movie, were completely computer generated, which we sort of touched on this in the Jurassic Park episode, which, of course, that's, you know, 20, almost 30 years older than this movie.
00:47:10
Nate Day
But this was...
00:47:12
Nate Day
sort of a first time for that to be used at such such a large scale. You know, in the Jurassic Park episode, we talked about how they used this sort of switched between giant mechanical puppets and occasionally doing the computer generated stuff. But, but there were several characters, there's like entire scenes that are based around, uh, trolls maybe that are completely computer generated. And that was sort of a first for filmmaking. And, you know, if you look at what's, in the box office today, that obviously set a huge standard for how we tell these stories.
00:47:12
Chris
Thank
00:47:46
Chris
Yeah. Oh, that's cool.
00:47:47
Nate Day
So cool movies that just took like unbelievable amounts of work. And i think it goes to show that we sometimes have these stigmas that something is unfilmable or you know too hard to figure out, but somebody just has to fricking buckle up and just do it and leave no stone unturned. And to Peter Jackson's credit, he maybe has one of the less interesting careers in Hollywood because he's done six now movies set in this cinematic universe. But because of how he was able to create these things in advance cinematic storytelling, he'll go down as one of the greats forever and ever and ever.
00:48:30
Nate Day
Yeah. So...
00:48:31
Chris
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
00:48:34
Chris
So what you're saying is we need Peter Jackson to make the Silmarillion.
00:48:38
Nate Day
I know I will just never say that. We need Peter Jackson to direct the new Lord of the Rings movie that's coming out next year. i don't know why. i mean, I do know why it's because he's probably old and tired and doesn't want to revisit this for a billionth time. But it seems crazy to me to move forward without him.
00:48:56
Nate Day
But I think he's producing or at least helping steer the ship somehow. But I digress.
00:49:03
Chris
Okay.
00:49:04
Nate Day
Let's jump into our discussion questions. What do you got for me?
00:49:08
Chris
I have, this is not a discussion question. I didn't write it down, but I meant to ask you during that actor portion.
00:49:11
Nate Day
Okay.
00:49:13
Chris
I've actually always wondered about this because, yeah, that list obviously all worked tons and tons and tons.
00:49:13
Nate Day
Yeah.
00:49:18
Chris
I don't think I've seen Viggo Mortensen in anything else.
00:49:23
Nate Day
That's crazy.
00:49:25
Chris
Really?
00:49:26
Nate Day
Yeah. Yeah.
00:49:28
Chris
okay.
00:49:28
Chris
All right, all right. That's amazing. Yep.
00:49:29
Nate Day
uh, Captain fantastic.
00:49:31
Nate Day
And, he just made a Western. What was it called? i forget, but yeah, he's around.
00:49:38
Chris
Okay. All right. All right.
00:49:39
Chris
so this was interesting. This just came up on my Instagram a couple of days ago because I am me. It was a think tank going through literature saying, is this underrated or overrated?
00:49:46
Nate Day
Yeah, you are.
00:49:52
Chris
And the guy had a very interesting answer to me because they asked him about Lord of the Rings, Fellowship of the Ring. And he basically said it is often... correctly rated or a little bit overrated by fans of the universe of the of the books but most of the people who he thought underrated it like comes out that they just haven't even read it yet and so i'm curious if you've had that discussion with people about the movies do you think they are underrated overrated appropriately rated how is that looked at in the film community
00:50:17
Nate Day
Oh.
00:50:27
Nate Day
Oh, well, you know While we're here, let me pull up Letterboxd and just see what it's rated on there, because I think that might give a good indicator of how people are looking at it.
00:50:38
Nate Day
It's got a 4.4 average on Letterboxd. That's almost as high as it goes. So, I mean, it would like literally pain me to say that they're overrated just because I think I have too hard a time separating their impact from maybe what they actually are.
00:50:43
Chris
Uh-huh.
00:50:55
Nate Day
i guess I would say that might be where that argument comes in. But God, they're really good, well-made movies.
00:51:08
Chris
little bit of a loaded question.
00:51:12
Nate Day
I just scrolled through the people that I follow on Letterboxd. Nobody's rating it one star and writing overrated in their review, you know what I mean?
00:51:21
Chris
Mm-hmm.
00:51:23
Nate Day
i don't surround myself with haters like that.
00:51:28
Chris
Good.
00:51:29
Nate Day
Yeah. No, I think, honest to God though, I think they're probably pretty appropriately rated. Like, they are in that class of movie like Jurassic Park or Jaws or the original Star Wars that you can revisit and just be like, holy shit, every time.
00:51:43
Chris
Mm-hmm.
00:51:43
Nate Day
You know?
00:51:44
Chris
I mean, and it's not like fantasy is your wheelhouse like it is for me.
00:51:48
Nate Day
Right.
00:51:48
Chris
I don't think this has to be your thing for it to be a good, a fun film to watch.
00:51:51
Nate Day
Right.
00:51:54
Nate Day
Agreed. Totally agreed.
00:51:56
Chris
Okay. Okay.
00:51:58
Nate Day
Okay. So I had a clarifying question that I've not really had the answer to for years and years and years because I am too stubborn to Google anything. can you tell me what the rings actually do? Like, I understand the sort of big picture. They make you more powerful, but I don't like, uh, that's about it, I guess.
00:52:21
Nate Day
Is that a question?
00:52:23
Chris
Incredible question. Wonderful question. have always battled with this myself.
00:52:29
Nate Day
okay. So it's not clear.
00:52:29
Chris
Because... No, no, it's kind of these were given to men and they were greedy and they corrupted them.
00:52:37
Nate Day
Right.
00:52:37
Chris
That's why I say the ring is really honestly a character in and of itself. Because it's like, okay, so the elves have their rings, but all of the other elves are also immortal.
00:52:43
Nate Day
Mm-hmm.
00:52:50
Chris
So that's not what it's doing for them.
00:52:52
Nate Day
Right.
00:52:54
Chris
This one makes Bilbo and Frodo invisible when they're wearing it. but not I don't even... This isn't like
00:53:10
Chris
apologetics for Tolkien. I think it really is intended to be the ethos. This you know, you need a symbol for power.
00:53:16
Nate Day
Sure.
00:53:19
Nate Day
Yeah. Okay. That does track.
00:53:20
Chris
Right?
00:53:21
Nate Day
Yeah.
00:53:22
Chris
short answer,
00:53:23
Chris
if it's answered in the book, then it has not revealed itself to me.
00:53:23
Nate Day
OK.
00:53:27
Chris
And I'll hopefully find it when I read through them again next year.
00:53:32
Nate Day
Yeah. OK. Well, good to know, at least, that I wasn't missing something huge.
00:53:39
Chris
We're just dodging questions today.
00:53:41
Nate Day
I guess so. What else do you got?
00:53:44
Chris
okay, well, you're not going to like this one any anymore.
00:53:47
Nate Day
Okay.
00:53:47
Chris
Why the heck did the movies leave out Tom Bombadil?
00:53:51
Nate Day
I don't know what that is.
00:53:53
Chris
yep, I know you didn't read them. So you don't know who that is. This is a famous rant that Stephen Colbert has given many times. Famous, huge Tolkien head.
00:54:00
Nate Day
Oh yeah. He's a big fan. Yeah.
00:54:03
Chris
Yep. massive, very cool character right in the middle of the book. And, people love to be outraged that he and his wife, the river. Oh gosh. Oh, I can't get this wrong. The river princess, the river queen, famously left out. And to an extent, this is fake tirade on my part.
00:54:24
Chris
You can kind of see exactly why they left them out. Cause it doesn't, in my opinion, do not get mad at me. I don't care. have a significant effect on the plot, but I ask this more in the sense of can you shed any light on how they make these decisions when they're going to make an adaptation?
00:54:46
Chris
Why this character compared to this one? Is it how much time it would take up? How many more characters they'd need to introduce? Effect on the plot as a whole, staying true to the plot. Where is this coming from? Why Tom Bamba Dom Bombadil compared to I don't know insert different scene that they could have cut out here
00:55:06
Nate Day
Sure. Yeah, sometimes it is for budgetary reasons. I have no idea. anything about this character or his wife that you're mentioning. But if she is royalty of some kind, I imagine that that would involve a lot of costume and hair and makeup that, that they could save and, you know, spend on like Orlando Bloom instead, who's in all three movies, you know,
00:55:27
Chris
on his hair and makeup
00:55:28
Nate Day
Right, yeah. So my guess is it's something like that. I do also have to point out that especially the extended versions of these movies, they do hit a point where they drag.
00:55:39
Nate Day
And so eliminating anything from the front load and delaying that drag as much as you can because it sweeps back up with that fight at the end, which I believe is actually from the second book, if I'm not mistaken.
00:55:48
Chris
And Moria. Yep.
00:55:53
Chris
Yeah, it's like the very start the second one, I believe.
00:55:57
Nate Day
Yeah, which they intentionally ported over to give a climactic ending to this movie.
00:56:00
Chris
Yep.
00:56:02
Nate Day
So my guess is that it was probably budgetary and also to keep just keep keep the pacing going.
00:56:04
Chris
yes.
00:56:10
Nate Day
You know, if the character is kind of just like a cool addition that's inserted into the story instead of being a narrative device that moves the plot forward, then he immediately becomes disposable.
00:56:24
Chris
Mm-hmm.
00:56:24
Nate Day
Right.
00:56:25
Chris
Okay.
00:56:25
Nate Day
And I can't speak to the character.
00:56:25
Chris
Okay. Yep.
00:56:28
Nate Day
You'll have to tell me whether that's how you see him or not. But somebody, enough people felt that he was not as impactful to the story that they could save pretty much time and money by including him.
00:56:41
Chris
Right. I mean, it feels immediately offensive. Like, I certainly will not agree that it's a throwaway character or not a cool part of the story. Like, my immediate thought when you said that was like, no, that is the story. But from a film perspective, it's a difficult argument to disagree with.
00:56:59
Nate Day
Right.
00:57:00
Chris
Like, clearly, you still got a cool story without this character.
00:57:04
Nate Day
Yep. That's exactly it.
00:57:05
Chris
But it... I mean, logically, if they just did this one, yeah, zero. Not zero action, but little action. And I know that's like a draw for audiences.
00:57:17
Chris
But it would be like the length of the good Pride and Prejudice if they genuinely faithfully adapted. mean, both are good, but one is better.
00:57:28
Nate Day
Yeah, and you're wrong about which. But as a fan of Tolkien, as a fan of Tolkien, what is your opinion on whether these movies are faithful or not, given the fact that there is more debate than I ever knew about?
00:57:31
Chris
That's crazy.
00:57:44
Chris
You did not know about that?
00:57:45
Nate Day
No. I mean, again, I'm not a Tolkien head.
00:57:47
Chris
Oh.
00:57:48
Nate Day
I just kind of like these movies. And frankly, sometimes when arguments come up about it, I have to tune out.
00:57:52
Chris
I...
00:57:55
Nate Day
Like, I can't.
00:57:56
Chris
Just avoid.
00:57:57
Nate Day
I'm like capacity because I can't even remember their names to the places because they're all from fake languages.
00:57:57
Chris
Yep.
00:58:02
Chris
Yep.
00:58:03
Nate Day
So I'm like, I can't, I can't listen to people argue about whether it's faithful or not.
00:58:09
Chris
No, honestly, that's completely fair. To me, here's my... I am not dodging this question. This is a sincere answer.
00:58:16
Nate Day
Okay.
00:58:18
Chris
As a big, big, big lover of all things Tolkien, I would obviously love to have a full page-by-page film adaptation.
00:58:23
Nate Day
Yeah.
00:58:31
Nate Day
Of course.
00:58:32
Chris
i mean, by percentage, we're talking... I don't know, an hour and 15 minutes of them just dicking around in the Shire. I would love that. I know many people would that's not fiscally viable, right?
00:58:42
Nate Day
Yeah, no.
00:58:44
Chris
So if the option is, which I believe in this capitalist nightmare we live in we get what we got, which is marvelous, or we get no film like we have with the Silmarillion. Yeah.
00:59:01
Chris
Give me what you got, Peter Jackson, right?
00:59:03
Nate Day
Yeah. Yeah.
00:59:05
Chris
I absolutely see the argument. I think as a talking point, what would you have wanted to see? What would it have looked like? I think that's fun.
00:59:16
Nate Day
Sure.
00:59:16
Chris
I think as a genuine criticism, that is some ivory tower gatekeeping bullshit.
00:59:21
Nate Day
Oh, yeah, actually, I think you're right.
00:59:25
Chris
Because we need to be realistic.
00:59:26
Nate Day
Yeah.
00:59:27
Chris
Like, the fact is, how many literal millions of people have now consumed this content, maybe even gotten into it, read the books, who had never heard of Tolkien, right?
00:59:39
Nate Day
Yeah.
00:59:42
Chris
This is a massive win for the books in my mind. And to get mad at somebody that they did not include every detail, which we can all objectively agree is not possible, that's just being mad to be mad.
00:59:56
Nate Day
Yeah, I agree. Similar to what we talked about last week, too.
00:59:58
Chris
You know? So, yes, exactly. Exactly the same.
Personal Enjoyment and Critique of LOTR Adaptations
01:00:05
Chris
We got a cool movie. Again, I would have loved to have Tom Bombadil in there. I would have loved more Radagast sooner than just The Hobbit. I don't care.
01:00:15
Nate Day
Yeah.
01:00:15
Chris
I got a great film.
01:00:16
Nate Day
Mm-hmm.
01:00:17
Chris
I got stuff that I can access. And end of the day, exactly what you said about Wuthering Heights. Oh, it's not true enough for you? Great, don't watch it.
01:00:25
Nate Day
Yep. Yep.
01:00:26
Chris
Great, go read the book again.
01:00:27
Nate Day
Yep.
01:00:28
Chris
I'm going to do both this year because I love both. And I don't think it is a slap in the face or a wrongdoing to Tolkien himself to enjoy the movie.
01:00:40
Nate Day
Correct. I would agree. Having not read the books.
01:00:42
Chris
I think he would have.
01:00:43
Nate Day
Yeah.
01:00:44
Chris
You know?
01:00:45
Nate Day
You can get your Tom Advil elsewhere.
01:00:46
Chris
And I feel confident in that statement.
01:00:49
Chris
Incredible.
01:00:57
Nate Day
I have a kind of a one last fun question that I just threw in. we talked early
Fun Discussion on LOTR Races
01:01:02
Nate Day
in the episode.
01:01:04
Nate Day
You are certainly a hobbit without a doubt. What of the races or species in Lord of the Rings do you think I belong to?
01:01:15
Chris
Elf.
01:01:16
Nate Day
Why?
01:01:18
Chris
No question.
01:01:19
Nate Day
No question. Wow. Okay.
01:01:21
Chris
No question. Very neat and clean. And a thing that I think is often not lost because everyone gets to treat it the way they want to, right?
01:01:24
Nate Day
Yeah.
01:01:31
Chris
There's a mythos around elves, full stop, right?
01:01:35
Nate Day
Yeah.
01:01:37
Chris
And every fantasy author has their own version and flavor.
01:01:42
Chris
The book elves are not
01:01:47
Chris
I mean, it kind of comes across. This is one thing, and this is where I see the people saying it's not a faithful adaptation. They're not these omniscient, altruistic beings here to help everybody.
01:01:59
Nate Day
Right. Yeah. They're really complicated.
01:02:00
Chris
They are, yes, which is awesome.
01:02:04
Nate Day
Yeah.
01:02:04
Chris
Right.
01:02:05
Nate Day
Yeah.
01:02:05
Chris
That's only better for us. That's more to chew on.
01:02:07
Nate Day
Yep.
01:02:09
Chris
And so why i say you're an elf. There are these aspects that I very much see in you and they sound like they're not compliments, but I know you know what I mean. And anybody watching that doesn't know what I mean, I'm not being mean to my friend.
01:02:23
Chris
There's this lofty, guarded, verging on conceited air that comes from a sense of justice and stewardship, not from arrogance.
01:02:36
Nate Day
Yeah. Okay.
01:02:38
Chris
You're an elf.
01:02:39
Nate Day
Yeah.
01:02:39
Chris
That's it. And you hated it when i forgot to do the dishes.
01:02:44
Nate Day
Yeah.
01:02:46
Chris
And I think the elves would be exactly the same.
01:02:48
Nate Day
Yeah, probably. Wow. I didn't think you were going to drag me like that.
01:02:55
Chris
Again, none of these are bad things.
01:02:58
Nate Day
What do you think Blair is?
01:03:00
Chris
Oh, boy.
01:03:02
Nate Day
I know 100% what Blair is.
01:03:05
Nate Day
Blair's a dwarf big time.
01:03:12
Nate Day
She doesn't change her clothes.
01:03:13
Nate Day
She could chug a whole beer. She thinks burps and farts are really funny.
01:03:19
Chris
a compelling argument.
01:03:22
Nate Day
That's getting 100% cut out.
01:03:23
Nate Day
I'm not publishing that online.
01:03:25
Chris
No, absolutely not.
01:03:26
Chris
You do not get to cut that. I forbade it.
01:03:29
Nate Day
Oh no, I'm in deep doo-doo.
01:03:31
Chris
I think Blair... Blair is shadow facts.
01:03:37
Nate Day
What does that even mean?
01:03:37
Chris
The king of the horses. Shadowfax? Oh, come on, dude.
01:03:41
Nate Day
King of horses?
01:03:42
Chris
Gandalf's horse? Yeah.
01:03:44
Nate Day
See, this is what I mean.
01:03:44
Chris
Shadowfax. The king of the horses.
01:03:47
Nate Day
No, that's not in my Lord of the Rings. She's king of the horses.
01:03:52
Chris
Incredible hair. There when you need her.
01:03:56
Nate Day
Oh.
01:03:58
Chris
Definitely not gonna cook dinner, but that's okay. And literally perfect.
01:04:06
Nate Day
Okay. Wow. That's a really good husband answer.
01:04:10
Chris
Blair is Shadowfax. Your dwarf answer was very compelling, though. I'm on the verge of switching mine. That was pretty good.
01:04:19
Nate Day
Yeah, just kidding, Blair. I love you. What
Personal Ratings and Comparisons with Movies
01:04:22
Nate Day
did you rate this book, Chris?
01:04:25
Chris
Obviously five. Obviously five. Been a five for decades.
01:04:27
Nate Day
Yeah.
01:04:29
Chris
Will be a five forever. And this is... That's such an obvious answer that I feel the need to defend myself. It is because derive so much joy from reading this.
01:04:41
Nate Day
Right.
01:04:42
Chris
Even outside of full readings, I will sit down and just read 20 pages at a time. It demands nothing of me. And yet, like the payoff to buy in is through the roof.
01:04:57
Chris
The best ROI you could imagine.
01:04:59
Nate Day
Cool. Yeah. So five star banger.
01:05:01
Chris
And I believe that, yes, I think that would be the same of anyone who would read it.
01:05:08
Nate Day
Good.
01:05:08
Chris
Again, the only limitation being the length. It is hefty.
01:05:14
Nate Day
Yeah, that little one you held up was not for me.
01:05:18
Chris
No, it takes some time. It takes some time. What about the movie?
01:05:22
Nate Day
I gave it a four and a half. My nitpicks are very small, but there's enough of them to sort of surmount to the loss of a half star.
01:05:24
Chris
Wow. Wow.
01:05:31
Nate Day
And some of it is kind of baked in. So for example, I can't remember the names of places or characters, and sometimes I can't understand what the characters, especially the dwarves, are saying. It's little things like that that are very much part of the DNA of Lord of the Rings that makes it just not 100% for me, but I would never, ever, ever balk at somebody thinking that they, you know, someone being able to get more on board with that.
01:05:58
Nate Day
But it's, you know, beyond that,
01:06:02
Nate Day
I think... If I had come to it sooner, i didn't discover these movies until I was in high school. And I think that with especially franchise filmmaking and sometimes genre filmmaking, you know, fantasy and science fiction that i find myself like really drawn to the ones that I loved as a child. I was a huge star Wars nut.
01:06:23
Nate Day
So I still am, like I'm excited for the new movie, even though I think it looks awful and you know, things like that. That's not the case for me for lord of the Rings.
01:06:30
Chris
Yep.
01:06:32
Nate Day
I just came to it a little bit too late. And I think had I come to it earlier in life, it probably would be that five star, like you're talking about revisit constantly.
Mainstream Appeal of LOTR and Recommendations
01:06:43
Nate Day
It's not a part of my DNA the way that sounds like the books are a part of yours.
01:06:49
Chris
That's a completely fair assessment. And I think, honestly, what you were saying is very, very valid and kind of what I was getting at with like, it is fairly mainstream.
01:07:01
Chris
I mean, arguably completely mainstream, but end of the day, it is still fantasy.
01:07:06
Nate Day
Right, right.
01:07:08
Chris
Like, there is large percentage of the population for whom this is the only fantasy tale they have or will consume.
01:07:16
Nate Day
Right. Totally.
01:07:21
Nate Day
Yeah.
01:07:24
Chris
the names are objectively inaccessible.
01:07:26
Nate Day
Right.
01:07:27
Nate Day
Right.
01:07:28
Chris
That's not a that's not an unfair statement.
01:07:31
Nate Day
Yeah. Yeah. So like I said, four and a half, but it's sort of, it's a very arbitrary four and a half. Like, I don't know that I would like, are those really flaws? i don't, I don't know, but.
01:07:45
Chris
Yep.
01:07:46
Nate Day
That's kind of where i'm sitting at.
01:07:47
Chris
No, fair. Completely fair. Who would you recommend it to?
01:07:51
Nate Day
Yeah, I would recommend it to pretty much anybody just because I think it does have, you know, despite some of those little things that we just called inaccessibilities, it is an overall a very accessible story.
01:08:03
Nate Day
It's operatic. It's a fantasy opera, right? There's clear-cut good guys and clear-cut bad guys, and the guys that are complicated are like in the B or C storylines.
01:08:07
Chris
Yes.
01:08:28
Chris
Yep.
01:08:29
Nate Day
But especially if you consider yourself a fan of fantasy storytelling, there's obviously sort of a,
01:08:30
Chris
Yep.
01:08:36
Nate Day
lineage that this shares with Harry Potter and Game of Thrones, even Pirates of the Caribbean, I think sort of being like that fantasy that's like, okay for boys to like, you know, I hate to reduce it that way, but that is kind of how these multi-billion dollar studios operate.
01:08:47
Chris
Mm-hmm.
01:08:52
Nate Day
You know, there's old people and young people and there's boys and there's girls. I'm just speaking in those terms, but I think that you can really see the influence across all kinds of,
01:08:56
Chris
Mm-hmm.
01:09:03
Nate Day
franchise filmmaking, Avatar, Dune, Star Wars. I think they're all very much impacted by how these movies came out. So if you just like storytelling, I think these are for you.
01:09:15
Chris
100%. Yep.
01:09:18
Nate Day
add?
Encouraging Young Readers with Fantasy Series
01:09:31
Nate Day
Right. Yeah.
01:09:34
Chris
you know, stereotypically kids are not fond of reading. And so this is one, it's a tricky spot because this isn't going to get a kid into reading the same as my typical go-to is like graphic novels.
01:09:47
Chris
That's a good gateway drug.
01:09:47
Nate Day
Yeah. Yeah.
01:09:48
Chris
This is more like a kid who's already curious, has maybe tried, you know, the Rick Riordan series, some of those things that are aimed
01:09:57
Nate Day
Oh, yeah, those were good.
01:10:00
Chris
Yeah, they're fantastic. They're so good as adults. They're really, those are good gateway drugs for kids. I mean, infinitely more accessible, right?
01:10:04
Nate Day
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
01:10:07
Chris
I mean, Harry Potter is very good for this. These are a very, very good stepping stone of like, hey, you enjoyed that?
01:10:14
Nate Day
cool.
01:10:14
Chris
Are you ready for a challenge?
01:10:16
Nate Day
Yeah.
01:10:17
Chris
You know what I mean?
01:10:19
Chris
I mean, I would recommend this to anybody, especially people like you. You enjoyed the movies? Read the book. You did just say a very funny thing when you were talking about the subtitles.
01:10:30
Chris
You said, oh, I would like it more if I could read it. And I immediately was like, guess what, Nate?
01:10:33
Nate Day
You can. Well, I feel like I have. I read the whole script, basically.
01:10:37
Chris
You can. You have not. You have not. That's the thing. These are brilliant movies, but you have not read it.
01:10:44
Nate Day
Yeah. Yeah.
01:10:44
Chris
It is. oh. It's a different experience.
01:10:50
Nate Day
Yeah.
01:10:50
Chris
And I think I'm going to argue some of the brilliance, even that by definition would make bad movie content. I think there's an amount that you are supposed to get little worn out.
01:11:04
Chris
Like how else do you get across this massive journey? They're walking, they're walking hundreds of miles.
01:11:13
Nate Day
Right.
01:11:16
Nate Day
Yeah.
01:11:17
Chris
You'd be dead if you had a sword fight every day for a week. At least a couple of those days, you did nothing but eat some bacon and tomatoes for breakfast, walk in silence with your buds for 12 miles, and then pitch camp.
01:11:25
Nate Day
Yep.
01:11:29
Nate Day
Yep. Yeah, you're right.
01:11:33
Chris
But yeah, no surprise. I would recommend this and do recommend this to literally everybody.
Next Episode Preview: 'Project Hail Mary'
01:11:38
Nate Day
Good. I think you're, I think you're on the right track
01:11:41
Nate Day
Up next, we'll be talking about Andy Weir's Project Hail Mary, another one I think Chris is very fond of, and I'm very much looking forward to the movie, directed by Phil Lord and Christopher Miller. So thanks for joining us today, and we look forward to our next discussion.