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Lessons on Entrepreneurial Adaptability with Rachel Hofstetter, Chatbooks CMO
5 Plays4 years ago
To be a successful entrepreneur, you have to be adaptable. Sometimes so adaptable, that you're completely rewriting the story of your company. To give insight on how you can remain motivated through it all, we're talking with Rachel Hofstetter, CMO at Chatbooks, and investor Gavin Christensen of Kickstart (a VC firm for startups in Utah, Colorado, and the Mountain West) as we bring you both sides of a Perfect Pitch. In this episode, we'll talk about:
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Adapting to new opportunities during career transitions
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Why quality over quantity is more important in a professional network
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The importance of storytelling in a startup
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How Rachel's challenge of "The Year of Hustle" boosted her career
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to the Perfect Pitch Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
To be a successful entrepreneur, you have to be adaptable.
00:00:04
Speaker
Sometimes so adaptable that you're completely rewriting the story of your company.
00:00:08
Speaker
To give insight on how you can remain motivated through it all, we're talking with Rachel Hofstetter, CMO at Chatbooks, and investor Gavin Christensen to bring you both sides of A Perfect Pitch.
Meet Rachel Hofstetter: From Editor to Entrepreneur
00:00:27
Speaker
What is Perfect Pitch?
00:00:29
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It's a podcast from Kickstart that reveals the minds of both investors and entrepreneurs throughout a startup's journey.
00:00:35
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So whether that's uncovering what everyone's really thinking during a startup pitch or learning how entrepreneurs like you have managed their first major roadblock, Perfect Pitch offers an honest, quick and tactical guide to help you on your startup journey.
00:00:49
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I'm your host, Karen Zelnick, and I'm excited to introduce you to Rachel and Gavin.
00:00:54
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So Rachel, I want to tell our listeners a little bit about you.
00:00:57
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You're currently the CMO at Chatbooks.
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Before that, you were the CEO and co-founder of Gesterly, an event service company.
00:01:04
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You were the editor at O, the Oprah Magazine, and the author of a bestselling business book, Cooking Up a Business.
00:01:11
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I have an entire list of awards here that's so long.
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I'm not even going to attempt to read it because it would take us all day, but congratulations.
00:01:18
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And now I'd love to know what else we should know about you.
00:01:22
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Well, thank you for all that fun intro.
00:01:25
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And the thing that I love to do when I'm not accepting awards, obviously, is hike.
00:01:30
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We have amazing hikes here in Utah and also in the surrounding area.
00:01:34
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But I have a book called The 60 Best Hikes in Utah, and I'm working my way through it.
00:01:38
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I'm about halfway through the whole list.
00:01:41
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But that is what I love to do on the weekends is get out here
Passion for Hiking and Life Transitions
00:01:44
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in Utah and hike.
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So any recommendations, I love to hear them.
00:01:49
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Well, Gavin's an adventurer.
00:01:50
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I know he was just recently taking an adventure.
00:01:52
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And do you have any recommendations for Rachel, Gavin?
00:01:54
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Well, she's done a ton of hikes.
00:01:57
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So I would just say, hey, definitely would recommend Capital Reef.
00:02:01
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Was there this last weekend with my family.
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We didn't do as much hiking as I'm sure Rachel would do.
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But I did do some one-wheeling, which was great on some trails there.
00:02:12
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We did a little bit of... The final highlight, I would say, was the trees.
00:02:17
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So they have these amazing 200, 300 year old cottonwood trees that are about 10 times bigger than any cottonwood tree you've ever seen in your life.
00:02:26
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One of them, it reminded me of childhood memories of the Berenstain Bears book, The Spooky Old Tree, which was a kind of a cool memory for me.
00:02:35
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And I don't know if you guys know that book.
00:02:38
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Well, I was a huge Berenstain Bears fan when I was younger.
00:02:40
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I had every single Berenstain Bears.
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That's a tongue twister, by the way.
00:02:45
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A Berenstain Bears book that was ever printed.
00:02:48
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So yeah, I remember the spooky old tree.
00:02:50
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We'll put a picture of it in the show notes.
00:02:52
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But I could talk about children's books all day.
00:02:55
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But I do think it's time that we dive into the discussion of why we're here about talking
Startup Journey and Acquisition by Chatbooks
00:02:58
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about founder stories and entrepreneurship.
00:03:00
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So Rachel.
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You're living the high life in New York.
00:03:03
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You're the food editor of Oh!
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The Oprah Magazine.
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You got a book deal from Penguin to write a book about startups for indie food startups.
00:03:11
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Living the dream, it seems like.
00:03:13
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So I would love to know what caused you to shift from this world to starting your own company.
00:03:20
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I took a crazy leap, said, let me just try to do this.
00:03:23
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I have no idea how to build a technology company.
00:03:26
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But that first year was exhilarating, all-encompassing.
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I actually started a Word doc where every night I would just write down like two or three things that happened that day because so much happens so quickly.
00:03:38
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You look back a week earlier and your whole view of the world would have changed in one week.
00:03:42
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And then a week forward, it would all change again.
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And it would be a whole different way of viewing the world.
00:03:47
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But that was how I jumped in.
00:03:48
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And honestly, I kind of said, let me try this for three months.
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See if anything happens.
00:03:54
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And we launched in six weeks and launch day was featured in Glamour and the next day, Real Simple and this old school thing called Daily Candy that doesn't exist anymore.
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I loved Daily Candy.
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I know.
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Oh, gee.
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When Daily Candy featured us, I was like, Oh my gosh, we're done.
00:04:09
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Yeah.
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And there were a lot of really exciting things that happened at the very beginning.
00:04:14
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They didn't always lead to lots of sales, but they were very exciting and very validating and made me say, Okay, well, let's try this for...
00:04:21
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another season, right?
00:04:23
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I did the first three months.
00:04:24
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Let's try it for three more months.
00:04:25
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Let's try it for three more months and just see what we can build.
00:04:28
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And so that's how it started.
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The passion with which you're talking about that makes me excited.
00:04:33
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And I'm like, I should also do that.
00:04:36
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Well, the beginning is fun.
00:04:38
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I will say then it got harder.
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Yeah.
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Let's talk about the harder.
00:04:41
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So you actually even pitched Kickstart.
00:04:43
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Yeah.
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So we kind of had about a year in New York and then my husband and I finally realized, let's move somewhere else.
00:04:50
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Let's try this in a different environment, maybe environment that was not quite as expensive as New York City, for example.
00:04:55
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Yeah.
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And we had had a moment where it seemed like, okay, maybe this is working.
00:04:59
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Maybe this is really something that is going to drive money.
00:05:04
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We went and pitched Kickstart, which I have a couple of memories about that.
00:05:08
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The main memories I have were I really, really prepped for it.
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I love standing in front of a crowd and giving speeches.
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And so as I was practicing, I remember standing in front of the conference room, giving this whole speech.
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And people were like, no, don't do that.
00:05:22
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Do not stand up in front of the room, sit down, have a conversation, which is very good advice.
00:05:28
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That is what you should do.
00:05:29
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But Gavin, that was the prologue to coming into your office.
00:05:34
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Well, there's some plot twists coming on all of this, but maybe I'll let Gavin jump in.
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Yeah.
00:05:38
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Gavin, jump in with your thoughts when Rachel first came in the pitch.
00:05:41
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I remember where it was.
00:05:43
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That was a much scrappier office that we were in at that time.
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I'm sure we had just finished a round of pizza.
00:05:49
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I think that our office permanently smelled like pizza, which I'm sure you... That's amazing.
00:05:54
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Gavin, do you remember the stand of stance socks in the corner?
00:05:58
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Oh, yeah.
00:05:59
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People told me about that ahead of time.
00:06:00
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They were like, they will probably give you some stance socks on the way out.
00:06:03
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Nice.
00:06:04
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I love it.
00:06:05
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That's so great.
00:06:06
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Yeah.
00:06:06
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So I definitely remember because...
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At the time, our impression was like, wow, this is an amazing founder.
00:06:14
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We need to figure out a way to work with her.
00:06:16
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This is pretty close to chatbooks.
00:06:19
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We have an important investment in chatbooks.
00:06:21
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And I was on the board and still am of chatbooks.
00:06:23
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And we try to avoid investing in companies that are similar or will converge.
00:06:29
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So we did something that never works.
00:06:33
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which is this is this the plot twist i mean i don't yeah yeah without you know bearing the lead too much so we did something that never works which was that you know is there a way to work together really secretly hoping that chatbooks would acquire the company and we could have the benefit of rachel's vision and product combined with chatbooks and like i say that never works because it's like two different groups of founders and
00:06:56
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our culture, their culture, your priorities, my priorities.
00:06:59
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But so much of the venture funding process is relationships with people and working through various challenges that if when you find people that you're like, man, I really want to figure out a way to work with this person as a venture capitalist, let's say.
Success through Passion and Flexibility
00:07:13
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And I just think about seeing Rachel here, just like how much we've been through together already, right?
00:07:18
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I mean...
00:07:19
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Rachel was an entrepreneur.
00:07:21
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She wasn't a mom yet.
00:07:22
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And I mean, there's so many things have happened, but that's... It's crazy being here almost six years later.
00:07:28
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I think Gavin and I first talked September 2015.
00:07:30
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And Gavin's point, a lot has happened in six years.
00:07:35
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And we've built something really amazing collectively at chatbooks.
00:07:39
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And of course, lives have been built too.
00:07:42
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Yeah.
00:07:43
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But at the time, what's amazing is it probably was pretty crazy, but it didn't feel crazy.
00:07:48
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It actually felt very, very right.
00:07:52
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It's funny.
00:07:52
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Probably a question I get asked the most was, what was that transition like for you?
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And going from technically being a founder to technically being an employee.
00:08:01
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And the short answer is it didn't feel like...
00:08:04
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anything.
00:08:04
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And that's because I came in feeling like I own the company, like any startup employee does.
00:08:11
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You have equity in a company you work where you do own it.
00:08:14
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I felt that very intrinsically, but also Nate and Vanessa, who are the co-founders of Chatbook, really empowered me with a sense of ownership too, that we were going to build this together along with the other executive team members, Dan and Steve, who were there at the time and Lauren, who has since joined.
00:08:30
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And so...
00:08:31
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I think it felt like I went from owning one thing that I really cared about to owning another thing that I really cared about.
00:08:38
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And so I think no matter where you are in your journey as a founder, as an employee, wherever you are, that sense of ownership is so important and it makes it a lot more fun.
00:08:49
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It is.
00:08:49
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One of my mantras, Rachel, is the thing that separates founders from other people.
00:08:56
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other than an appetite for risk and all kinds of things like that.
00:08:59
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But the main thing is the thing that they're founding, they just care more about that than anyone else does.
00:09:04
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And really all the behavior that's so great about founders and all the outcomes kind of come from that source of just caring more.
00:09:12
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I think it's probably important to note that what you pulled off with the acquisition of Gesterly and your role at Chatbooks is kind of rare because that takes a very flexible person.
00:09:24
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I think it shows how rare the culture is at Chatbooks too, that they can partner with another founder and kind of merge the vision and keep everybody excited and motivated.
00:09:34
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So it's been special to be part of that and see you guys do that.
00:09:38
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But I think you brought that amazing passion and caring more than anyone else to that common vision.
00:09:48
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Nate and I were talking about this recently.
00:09:50
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We've worked with some consultants and people have been at really great startups that we really are impressed by.
00:09:57
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Sometimes it's so interesting though, because it's the people on our own team who just care so much that really bring the magic.
00:10:05
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And you're like, wow, they have a really fancy background.
00:10:07
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And to be honest, we expected something really great.
00:10:10
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But the caring is honestly what matters more at the end of the day.
00:10:13
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Yeah.
00:10:14
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It's what leads to the extra effort, the extra insight, the attention to detail, all those things.
00:10:21
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I was going to say something else that I'll just share because I think it was really important in the transition is I went in on day zero with this mindset that chat book success was my success.
00:10:33
Speaker
And that it wasn't about building guests early up within chat books.
00:10:38
Speaker
It was about doing whatever was best for the ultimate chat book success.
00:10:42
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That could come in many forms.
00:10:44
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I think...
00:10:45
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it's shifted over the years for all of us of what that product is and what that brand is.
00:10:51
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And so to your point, Gavin, being really flexible, but it was just a very, very conscious decision for me that it was not about guests really succeeding with inside chat books.
00:10:59
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It was about chat books succeeding.
00:11:02
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Gavin mentioned, Rachel, your flexibility, which obviously you're speaking to a little bit there of.
00:11:07
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Has that come naturally to you?
00:11:09
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Was that a skill you had to develop?
00:11:10
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And do you have any tips for people listening on how they can become more flexible and adaptable?
00:11:16
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You know what?
00:11:16
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I think it's always looking to two things.
00:11:20
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What is exciting without shiny object syndrome?
00:11:23
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But where are things moving towards?
00:11:25
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And so when I worked in magazines, magazines were fantastic.
00:11:29
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At the beginning, they were still growing.
00:11:31
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It was an exciting industry.
00:11:32
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There was a lot of stuff happening.
00:11:34
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Then it was, okay, startups look really, really interesting.
00:11:38
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It's emerging.
00:11:39
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None of us even really, except for Gavin, we're talking about startups 20 years ago.
00:11:44
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And then it became this more exciting thing.
00:11:46
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And so I think it's as much about flexibility, it's just... It's also being opportunistic and looking to where things are growing and moving and following that.
00:11:55
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If we all just stay with what we knew 5 years ago, we'd all be dead in the water as a company and marketers.
Storytelling in the Digital Age
00:12:01
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We have to keep evolving and
00:12:02
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you know, essentially run where the ball is going.
00:12:06
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So I think that's how I kind of think about the flexibility too, is don't stand where you are because the ball is somewhere totally else on the field.
00:12:13
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So just keep running where that ball is going.
00:12:16
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Maybe just another tip out there for younger listeners is so much better to have a few relationships where you've really created value for people than just knowing a lot of people.
00:12:28
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And then they become not just like, yeah, I know they're great to like that person is incredible.
00:12:35
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Rachel, she does this sort of naturally.
00:12:37
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It's really got her embedded in this community incredibly quickly.
00:12:41
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Yeah.
00:12:43
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And too, I think it helps with the times where your passion, your energy around something lags.
00:12:48
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It helps maintain that momentum when you are really invested in the people around you and the community around you.
00:12:54
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Not only are you taking ownership in your company, but you're owning the culture that you're creating in the entire community.
00:12:59
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So I love that point.
00:13:00
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Thank you so much, Gavin.
00:13:02
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Yeah.
00:13:03
Speaker
Yeah.
00:13:05
Speaker
I want to transition a little bit, Rachel, because as a former editor and an author, you're clearly expert at storytelling.
00:13:12
Speaker
And we talk all the time about how important storytelling is for founders.
00:13:16
Speaker
How is that translated in your business at Guestually and then also at Chatbooks?
00:13:20
Speaker
I think we're in what I would call an attention economy right now, even especially in 2021, where the attention we give someone is the most valuable currency, whether that is us talking right here or a listener listening to this podcast or when you're scrolling your phone on TikTok or Instagram or what have you.
00:13:39
Speaker
It's all about fighting for people's attention.
00:13:42
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But what I've seen really interesting over the last 20 years is how storytelling has evolved.
00:13:47
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I think it will continue to evolve.
00:13:49
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And we think of the traditional hero's journey story, which is great, or a novel, or even the beautiful long-form magazine articles I used to sign out and edit where I would have 2,000 words to tell a beautiful story.
00:14:03
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There is not a ton of attention for 2000 word articles.
00:14:07
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There is still.
00:14:09
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But I'm super impressed these days by people who are telling stories in really quick bite-sized formats.
00:14:15
Speaker
As an example, one that's very top of mind right now in the marketing space is a company called Hill House named a product, The Nap Dress.
00:14:24
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That's literally two words.
00:14:25
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It's a name of a product, nap dress.
00:14:27
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And yet there's a whole story tied up in that.
00:14:30
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You hear the name, you're like, wow, a dress that you take a nap in.
00:14:33
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That's a whole life.
00:14:34
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That's a whole vibe.
00:14:35
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There's a hero in that story.
00:14:37
Speaker
And you better believe they are taking a glamorous nap at 3pm.
00:14:42
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And so stories can be that small is where I'm going with the nap dress example.
00:14:47
Speaker
But even we did an ad for chat books a couple years ago.
00:14:50
Speaker
And it starts out with a mom in the bathtub.
00:14:53
Speaker
And she looks like she's having a relaxing bubble bath.
00:14:56
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And isn't that great?
00:14:56
Speaker
And you're like, wow, that mom is not me.
00:14:59
Speaker
And then she stands up and she's fully clothed.
00:15:01
Speaker
And it turns out her kids are running around and things are crazy.
00:15:03
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And she slipped and she fell into the bathtub.
00:15:05
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That is 15 seconds when that happens.
00:15:08
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And you have a whole story.
00:15:10
Speaker
And then there is more to the video.
00:15:12
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And hopefully that first 15 seconds kind of hooks you.
00:15:15
Speaker
And so I think that's where I get most excited about storytelling is kind of what story can you wrap up in 15 seconds or less?
00:15:25
Speaker
One more example of this, by the way, is memes.
00:15:26
Speaker
Memes are great because you get a whole story in one teeny little piece, right?
00:15:30
Speaker
It's like, oh, I have all this other context that now makes this funny or interesting or mean something.
00:15:37
Speaker
So as a marketer, and even what we're doing at Chatbooks right now, it's constantly trying to wrap up our value props, who we are, what our products are, who we are as a brand.
00:15:45
Speaker
And as bite-sized as you can get.
00:15:47
Speaker
This isn't even bite-sized candy bars anymore.
00:15:49
Speaker
It's the teeny, teeny one-fourth of a bite-sized candy bar.
00:15:53
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:53
Speaker
But you can get so creative within those constraints.
00:15:56
Speaker
And then think about how much more that teeny bite leaves you wanting.
00:15:59
Speaker
So the effect of that storytelling.
00:16:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:02
Speaker
That is my... Oh my gosh.
00:16:03
Speaker
I just went on a soapbox about storytelling.
00:16:05
Speaker
But I think it's the bite-sized stories right now that are really exciting.
00:16:09
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I love this insight around the micro storytelling.
00:16:14
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In some ways, it's almost like a collective consciousness that we have because of all the layers of digital and social media where we can tell a story at the tip of the pyramid because of all this deep context that we've gotten because we've over consumed in so many ways.
00:16:29
Speaker
If you just see a meme, it shouldn't be funny.
00:16:31
Speaker
But because you know all the layers underneath, it is.
00:16:34
Speaker
Yeah, that's right.
00:16:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:36
Speaker
You're like, well, because Gandalf and yeah.
00:16:38
Speaker
And then in Flintstones and Michael Jackson.
00:16:41
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:41
Speaker
Okay.
00:16:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:43
Speaker
You know, what's funny is I have a 17 year old.
00:16:46
Speaker
He'll do these meme sessions with his cousins.
00:16:48
Speaker
They'll just sit there and look at memes for like an hour and laugh.
00:16:52
Speaker
As a parent, it's just kind of like, I can't handle it.
00:16:56
Speaker
It means they are creating all these storytelling connections, Gavin.
00:16:59
Speaker
There you go.
00:16:59
Speaker
That's right.
00:17:00
Speaker
It's really, really good.
00:17:01
Speaker
It's education.
00:17:02
Speaker
Yeah, there you go.
00:17:03
Speaker
We've reframed it.
00:17:04
Speaker
That's great.
00:17:05
Speaker
Gavin, how have you seen storytelling evolve for founders, especially as they come to pitch you?
00:17:09
Speaker
Or what should they know as they're pitching about how to tell their stories?
00:17:14
Speaker
Some of these same principles apply, which is there's a broader context of startups and technology companies, a tapestry that it's important to be able to define yourself clearly and show how you're different, but also in the context of that broader tapestry.
00:17:30
Speaker
So I think that actually is an important part of storytelling.
00:17:33
Speaker
You know, it can get kind of trite.
00:17:35
Speaker
We're like Uber, but for, you know, like doing kind of that thing is maybe too much.
00:17:40
Speaker
founders really forget to add interest to the story.
00:17:46
Speaker
There should be a main character.
00:17:47
Speaker
There should be conflict.
00:17:48
Speaker
There should be a plot twist.
00:17:49
Speaker
There should be a villain.
00:17:51
Speaker
How that person, that customer, that employee kind of insert themselves into that hero's journey description is part of how you get someone to do something that's not strictly rational.
00:18:03
Speaker
Give up pay, give up prestige, give up, et cetera, et cetera.
00:18:08
Speaker
So I think maybe thinking about the elements of the story and making sure that you don't just jump to the end.
00:18:15
Speaker
How about this?
00:18:16
Speaker
Not always short form.
00:18:18
Speaker
Have the elements there.
00:18:20
Speaker
Show that you've thought through who all the players are going to be and what's down the road a little bit.
00:18:25
Speaker
Speaking of bite-sized stories, we like to keep these easily adjustable on someone's commute or on a workout or something.
00:18:31
Speaker
But I do have one final question for you, Rachel.
00:18:35
Speaker
And that is, what's an effective practice you've implemented in your work or personal life that's had a great impact on your success?
00:18:43
Speaker
This may not be bite-sized, but... Even better.
00:18:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:47
Speaker
Gavin just said they're not all bite-sized.
00:18:48
Speaker
So it's great.
00:18:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:49
Speaker
Hero's Journey.
The 'Year of Hustle' and Conclusion
00:18:50
Speaker
So talk to me about that year that yesterday was acquired by Chatbooks and I joined Chatbooks.
00:18:55
Speaker
That happened in November.
00:18:57
Speaker
But I went into that year in a bit of a slump.
00:18:59
Speaker
I just wasn't sure what the next level, what the next stage of this company looked like.
00:19:05
Speaker
I just moved to Utah.
00:19:06
Speaker
I didn't know what the next stage of my life looked like.
00:19:09
Speaker
And so I really wanted a way to cut through that and figure out what I was doing next.
00:19:13
Speaker
So I invented this challenge for myself.
00:19:16
Speaker
I called it the year of hustle.
00:19:18
Speaker
For me, that meant literally 365 days where I was just going to go at my absolute highest level.
00:19:25
Speaker
I was going to reach out to everyone.
00:19:27
Speaker
Gavin was one of the people on my list that year.
00:19:30
Speaker
I mean, I literally made lists of hundreds of people and I worked my way through it and we built software and launched things and I called customers one-on-one.
00:19:40
Speaker
I mean, I just did all the things.
00:19:44
Speaker
7 days a week, 18 hours a day.
00:19:46
Speaker
And I went as hard as I thought I ever could.
00:19:48
Speaker
But it was amazing because the more you do, the more it starts to unfold and the more that opens up for you and the more possibilities come out of nowhere.
00:19:55
Speaker
Another way of saying that you make your own luck by putting things out there.
00:19:59
Speaker
And so year of hustle was really pivotal for me.
00:20:03
Speaker
And so since then, I've continued to try to create these seasons and they're not always a year.
00:20:07
Speaker
And I think whenever you're unsure about what the next step is, or you just don't know how to break through or how to structure a season of your life, giving yourself this time delineated challenge, it's only for a set amount of time to put it on the calendar.
00:20:24
Speaker
You have a very clear concept.
00:20:26
Speaker
then you just use it to break through a little bit and open new doors that you might not know were there or spark new ideas.
00:20:33
Speaker
So I would say I've used that time and time again, this idea of a quick challenge to restart things.
00:20:38
Speaker
And I highly recommend it.
00:20:41
Speaker
Gavin, have you seen that practice play out for Rachel and Gasterly and chatbooks?
00:20:46
Speaker
I definitely saw the results of it and the network she was creating and the value she's creating, but didn't realize there was a seasons of hustle behind it.
00:20:55
Speaker
So yeah.
00:20:56
Speaker
Hashtag year of hustle sounded good on Instagram too.
00:20:59
Speaker
Well, I mean, yeah.
00:21:00
Speaker
Speaking of the fact that Rachel is so good at motivating and mentoring and inspiring people, I remember talking to her about this concept.
00:21:06
Speaker
And I want in particular, Rachel, that you mentioned was think it, do it.
00:21:09
Speaker
That one that you had.
00:21:10
Speaker
And there are some times where, you know, you're having a day where you're just, I'm a little sluggish today.
00:21:16
Speaker
And I was like, Nope, today's my think it, do it day.
00:21:18
Speaker
I'm just going to get it done.
00:21:20
Speaker
And so it's been motivating for me.
00:21:22
Speaker
So I also encourage listeners to do that too.
00:21:25
Speaker
Stuff like that has been very helpful.
00:21:27
Speaker
So it's been so great to have you on.
00:21:29
Speaker
I've loved this discussion.
00:21:30
Speaker
I've loved all we've talked about as far as the ways you can think about being an entrepreneur, not just starting your own company, but also just within a company and taking ownership and having that hustle there.
00:21:40
Speaker
It's been a really, really lively and enriching discussion.
00:21:43
Speaker
So thank you, Rachel and Gavin, for being here.
00:21:45
Speaker
Really appreciate it.
00:21:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:47
Speaker
Thanks guys.
00:21:48
Speaker
This was so fun.
00:21:49
Speaker
And of course, thank you for listening as we dive deep into what it takes to create the perfect pitch.
00:21:54
Speaker
If you want to learn more about our investor, Gavin Christensen from Kickstart or Rachel Hofstetter and her amazing marketing team at chat books, we'll have a link to the company and longer bios in our show notes at kickstartfund.com.
00:22:06
Speaker
You can listen to more episodes of Perfect Pitch wherever you listen to your podcasts.
00:22:10
Speaker
And if you like what you're learning, leave us a reviewer rating.
00:22:12
Speaker
We'll be back next time with more insights from entrepreneurs and the investors who fund them.
00:22:16
Speaker
So be sure to subscribe so you don't miss a thing.