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Insights on Founder-Market Fit with Jeron Paul
5 Plays3 years ago
When a venture capitalist invests in a startup, they're investing in more than just the company. A strong founder-market fit is vital. And few understand that better than today's guest. As a serial entrepreneur, he's focused his attention on leadership and has broken the mold for what makes a successful CEO. Join us in today's conversation with Jeron Paul, Founder and CEO of Spiff, and investor Gavin Christensen of Kickstart (a VC firm for startups in Utah, Colorado, and the Mountain West) as we bring you both sides of a Perfect Pitch. In this episode, we'll talk about:
What founder-market-fit is and why entrepreneurs and investors should care
Pitfalls and benefits of a repeat founder
Why a founder's success hinges on self-awareness
Jeron's belief that you shouldn't hire "culture fits"
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Significance of Venture Capital
00:00:00
Speaker
When a venture capitalist invests in a startup, they're investing in more than just a company.
00:00:05
Speaker
A strong founder market fit is vital, and few understand that better than today's guest.
00:00:11
Speaker
As a serial entrepreneur, he's focused his attention on leadership and has broken the mold for what makes a successful CEO.
00:00:17
Speaker
Join us in today's conversation with Jaron Paul, founder and CEO of Spiff, and investor Gavin Christensen, as we bring you both sides of A Perfect Pitch.
00:00:36
Speaker
Perfect Pitch is a podcast from Kickstart that reveals the minds of both investors and entrepreneurs throughout a startup's journey.
00:00:45
Speaker
I'm your host, Karen Zelnick, and I'm excited to introduce everyone to today's guests.
Jaron Paul's Career Journey
00:00:50
Speaker
Jaren, I'm going to go through a few of your bio points.
00:00:52
Speaker
So you're a serial entrepreneur.
00:00:54
Speaker
You founded four companies before founding Spiff, which is a Utah-based SaaS startup.
00:00:59
Speaker
You were previously a venture capitalist where you invested over $60 million in software startups.
00:01:05
Speaker
And today you're an angel or secondary investor in over a dozen companies.
00:01:09
Speaker
You love Shakespeare, old period romance, and hope to someday write a sci-fi or a fantasy story.
00:01:14
Speaker
And Gavin's a big fantasy and sci-fi reader himself.
00:01:17
Speaker
So it's no wonder that the two of you get along really well.
00:01:20
Speaker
And is there anything else that we should know about you or that you'd like our listeners to know?
00:01:24
Speaker
Just the fact that I have a lot of dirt on Gavin.
00:01:26
Speaker
So we'll have to circle back around to that one.
00:01:29
Speaker
Perfect.
00:01:30
Speaker
Gavin, you're not nervous at all.
00:01:31
Speaker
It's fine.
00:01:32
Speaker
Yeah.
00:01:32
Speaker
And it's always good to have you back on the show.
00:01:35
Speaker
And we'll have a link to your bio in our show notes.
00:01:37
Speaker
And you and Jaren knew each other long before Kickstart, as I've already hinted at.
00:01:42
Speaker
So tell us a little bit about your early relationship and how you two know each other.
Early Collaboration and Relationship Building
00:01:46
Speaker
Well, we go way back.
00:01:47
Speaker
And by the way, I'm not nervous about Jaren having dirt on me because I don't think anyone has the ability to embarrass myself like myself.
00:01:54
Speaker
So I'm not intimidated by others' ability to do so.
00:01:58
Speaker
So we go back to BYU.
00:02:00
Speaker
We're both econ majors.
00:02:02
Speaker
I think it's fair to say, Jaren, we were kind of similar in that we were people who were interested in a broad set of things, but we're doing econ because of the rigor and what it could do for us career-wise.
00:02:12
Speaker
So we spent a lot of time in the econ lab trying to keep up with all the PhD types who were owning econometrics and other things.
00:02:19
Speaker
Anyway, that's how we first met.
00:02:21
Speaker
Jaren went to Monitor, which is a consulting firm in Boston, and helped recruit me there.
00:02:26
Speaker
including my first round of interviewing with consulting firms and striking out and then trying again and getting in, which is that's sort of the pattern of my life is often trying for something failing and then coming back and doing it and getting it the next time, or maybe getting something different the next time.
00:02:43
Speaker
That's sort of the pattern in my life.
00:02:45
Speaker
Mine's kind of the opposite of that experience.
00:02:47
Speaker
Right, Gavin?
00:02:48
Speaker
Yeah, just getting in.
00:02:48
Speaker
Yeah, just generally succeeding the first time.
00:02:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:52
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's fair.
00:02:54
Speaker
Anyway, so that's a lot of how we knew each other was he went to Monitor, I went to Monitor.
00:02:58
Speaker
He went to vSpring, I went to vSpring.
00:03:01
Speaker
He went to business school, I kind of took over his spot.
00:03:04
Speaker
Then he came back from vSchool, took my spot, I went to vSchool.
00:03:08
Speaker
And then we ended up working together at vSpring and we ended up talking to Jaren about possibly joining Kickstarter a few different times over the years.
00:03:15
Speaker
and him opting for the entrepreneurial route.
00:03:18
Speaker
So it's been, I would say it's been one of the really fun things in my career to work with Jaren specifically in a bunch of different capacities.
00:03:26
Speaker
Hey, before we move on, Kez, I should ask you, as we kick off the season, what have you been up to?
00:03:34
Speaker
Is there something you're reading that you want to tell us about?
00:03:36
Speaker
Or what does the audience not know about you?
00:03:38
Speaker
I feel like there's a lot they don't know about me, but I always feel like I never know what is interesting to say on this.
00:03:44
Speaker
But as far as what I'm reading, I actually really enjoy reading books.
00:03:48
Speaker
things about culture and about cultivating talent.
00:03:50
Speaker
And I'm currently reading Coactive, which is a leadership and coaching.
00:03:54
Speaker
They have a Coactive coaching sort of workbook.
00:03:58
Speaker
So I'm learning how to have good conversations and coach and how to be a coach as a manager.
00:04:03
Speaker
And it's really fascinating to me.
00:04:05
Speaker
Sounds like one I need to add to my list.
00:04:06
Speaker
Yeah, I'm really enjoying it.
00:04:07
Speaker
So, well, everyone should add it to the list.
The Vision and Purpose of Spiff
00:04:11
Speaker
But Jaron, to start, tell our listeners a little bit about SPF.
00:04:15
Speaker
I kind of have various levels of detail, depending on how into our particular industry the person is that I'm talking to.
00:04:23
Speaker
For this conversation, I'll go to level one, which is just kind of what I would tell my grandma when she asked me what I'm doing.
00:04:30
Speaker
And basically what I tell my grandma is, hey, there's a lot of folks that get sales commissions out there.
00:04:35
Speaker
And it turns out that managing that process...
00:04:38
Speaker
And calculating the right numbers for that process is actually much more complicated than you would think.
00:04:44
Speaker
And so we build the software that does that, that allows people and companies to scale the process of giving incentive compensation to folks at their companies.
00:04:58
Speaker
It's amazing that until this point, it was basically just done on a spreadsheet.
Spiff's Financing and Growth Strategy
00:05:01
Speaker
And you'd think that that would have been automated sooner, but we needed you to come along and do it.
00:05:06
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:07
Speaker
And in fact, one of my co-founders and I who have started multiple companies together, we often joke that if you show us a really complicated spreadsheet that runs a business critical process, we'll show you a startup idea.
00:05:18
Speaker
I still think the unbundling of Excel is really, really rich grounds for other entrepreneurs out there, especially if you like fintech.
00:05:27
Speaker
And Microsoft is like, stop, don't do it.
00:05:29
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:31
Speaker
You know, it's interesting.
00:05:32
Speaker
Excel is such a Swiss army knife that it's not really trying to compete with, you know, a pure play commission management software platform.
00:05:42
Speaker
Somehow I feel like they're not feeling that threatened these days.
00:05:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:46
Speaker
I feel like they're doing okay over there.
00:05:47
Speaker
They're doing fine.
00:05:48
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:50
Speaker
So Jaren, getting back to Spiff, it wasn't your first startup.
00:05:55
Speaker
And with other companies under your belt, what was different about your experience founding Spiff?
00:06:00
Speaker
Most of my previous startups were on the scale of completely bootstrapped to really heavily venture financed were significantly far further towards the completely bootstrapped end of the spectrum.
00:06:13
Speaker
I think in the last deal that I did with Kickstarter and Gavin, particularly, I think we ended up raising about $2.2 million, give or take.
00:06:21
Speaker
About $300K to $400K of that, maybe even as high as $500K of that was from the management team.
00:06:28
Speaker
And so when you looked at really a net outside capital, sub $2 million bucks.
00:06:33
Speaker
And then the company I started before that was essentially friends and family money.
00:06:38
Speaker
And I think it totaled something like 70k of investment.
00:06:41
Speaker
The company I started before that was essentially zero or close to, you know, it was like whatever I could personally invest.
00:06:47
Speaker
And so I think for those reasons, we wanted to do something very different with Smith.
00:06:52
Speaker
We wanted to explore creating a truly generational company.
00:06:56
Speaker
And to do that, we also felt like this space...
00:06:59
Speaker
was going to heat up very quickly.
00:07:01
Speaker
I'd seen that with some of the other deals I had done in the past.
00:07:05
Speaker
We felt like this one was going to progress rapidly towards a tipping point, and then it would become a key part of the sales and finance tech stacks.
00:07:13
Speaker
And so we wanted to make sure we were at the forefront of that.
00:07:16
Speaker
And we felt like the best way to do that was to raise a significant amount of venture capital fairly quickly.
00:07:21
Speaker
And so that's what we did.
00:07:23
Speaker
And so I think that's probably the single biggest thing.
00:07:26
Speaker
And what did that do for you?
00:07:28
Speaker
Or what did that open up for you as far as a founder?
00:07:30
Speaker
And I would love to know a few like lessons learned or how that changed your approach from the onset.
00:07:36
Speaker
It definitely changed my approach in terms of team building and just the overall growth of the company.
00:07:42
Speaker
I would say we eclipsed Capture's total revenues when we sold Capture in, I want to say, definitely under two years.
00:07:52
Speaker
It could have been close to a year and a half.
00:07:54
Speaker
So we completely blew past my last company's total revenue amount at the time we sold the company within a year and a half of Spiff.
00:08:03
Speaker
So just a much, much faster ramp.
00:08:06
Speaker
In terms of lessons learned, I've just learned a ton being a second, third time or fourth time CEO and at least a second time software CEO around how we wanted to build the software and how we wanted to avoid some of the
00:08:23
Speaker
early problems we had with my last company.
00:08:26
Speaker
And so I think we've been a lot smarter around how we built the software for what's called extensibility, so that we can build on top of that software more easily.
00:08:36
Speaker
It's much easier to make changes to the software this time around for SPF than it was for Capture.
Challenges of Product Market Fit
00:08:42
Speaker
One thing though, that I think I kind of traded a little was, Gavin will often call this founder market fit.
00:08:48
Speaker
I had very, very deep founder market fit at Capture, and less so, I would say, with Spiff.
00:08:54
Speaker
So it's been fun to see the pros and cons of those two approaches.
00:09:00
Speaker
I was never a sales compensation consultant for multiple years before joining Spiff.
00:09:05
Speaker
Now, I had certainly faced the problem, but I didn't work for...
00:09:10
Speaker
ZS or the Alexander Group or Aon or one of these very large sales consulting practices out there.
00:09:16
Speaker
So I didn't bring that level of founder market fit this time around.
00:09:20
Speaker
As I think about
00:09:22
Speaker
Lessons learned from my side.
00:09:23
Speaker
And again, working with Jaron, I think one of the things we did well as he approached Spiff, and it was a no-brainer for us to fund Jaron and work with him, we tried to work with Jaron to make sure that he was well-funded, but he wasn't feeling pressure to immediately start hitting revenue KPIs versus finding...
00:09:42
Speaker
product market fit.
00:09:44
Speaker
I mean, Spiff's had explosive growth over the last several years, but there was several months without revenue that I think were actually among the most critical in the history of the company to get things really figured out.
00:09:55
Speaker
And we brought in a great firm on the Series A pretty early.
00:10:00
Speaker
But we didn't do that until Jaren and the team had really figured some things out.
00:10:05
Speaker
So Jaren and his team has done so much right at SPF, but specifically, I think we worked together to do that period well, so that you were ready for the big money when it came.
00:10:16
Speaker
And sometimes the time and lack of pressure is valuable to go slow, get it right, then go fast.
00:10:24
Speaker
That's one of my recollections of like, hey, I'm really glad we did that because
00:10:29
Speaker
It's been a blur since and you guys have solved problem after problem, but you had this core of like, this is valuable to this customer.
00:10:37
Speaker
And Kevin, I would be interested in going a little bit deeper on that.
00:10:41
Speaker
Like how would you advise founders on what they need to do within that time period and how do they know when they're ready and they've really nailed it and they're ready to take on, like you said, some big money?
00:10:50
Speaker
It varies for every company.
00:10:52
Speaker
The mistake is often getting some customer traction and saying, oh, that's product market fit.
00:10:58
Speaker
Let's start really scaling up, go to market, as opposed to iterating and say, do we have enough here?
00:11:05
Speaker
And one of the things that SPF had to figure out is this is a big change for customers to onboard.
Scaling Challenges for SaaS Companies
00:11:11
Speaker
Many times going from a very complicated spreadsheet that kind of works to really sophisticated software,
00:11:17
Speaker
But figuring out, okay, how much services are involved?
00:11:21
Speaker
Because every set of investors you bring on, there's less tolerance for ambiguity and more pressure to hit KPIs that justify their investment, which means you kind of go with what you have.
00:11:33
Speaker
And that's why I say being pre-seed seed is a special time because you have investors who are kind of like, let's just find out what works.
00:11:40
Speaker
We're on a search.
00:11:42
Speaker
No Series A investor wants to be on a search.
00:11:45
Speaker
They want to be, you know, hurtling towards destination.
00:11:48
Speaker
That's what I would say is just, that's the general concept is, and I don't know if you'd agree with that, Jaren, but.
00:11:53
Speaker
Yeah, completely.
00:11:54
Speaker
I was thinking about how Tesla gets criticized sometimes for the fact that when you look at its cars, that the doors don't line up perfectly.
00:12:02
Speaker
And there's these things called tolerances in building cars.
00:12:05
Speaker
And as you progress from a C to a C, the tolerances just need to get smaller and smaller and smaller.
00:12:11
Speaker
And so like Gavin said, you just got to be hurtling towards the destination and more and more have your unit economics metrics just dialed in.
00:12:18
Speaker
And I think that's one of the things that many companies, SaaS companies struggle with is they break through these great revenue milestones, maybe five, seven million ARR, but then some stall out because they didn't quite have enough product market fit
Importance of Founder-Market Fit
00:12:32
Speaker
going for them.
00:12:32
Speaker
And SPF has really done a great job of just breaking through those milestones, need to roll.
00:12:36
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a really important takeaway for those that are listening.
00:12:40
Speaker
And Gavin, there are obviously positives and negatives to being a repeat founder like Jaren is.
00:12:45
Speaker
And it's probably rare that the founder has great founder market fit.
00:12:50
Speaker
So I'd love your perspective on the pitfalls and benefits of repeat founders.
00:12:54
Speaker
And then how important is that founder market fit?
00:12:58
Speaker
So first on the founder market fit or founder opportunity fit is we ask ourselves, why is this person the one that will solve this challenging and intractable problem?
00:13:09
Speaker
Because of not just Jared, but the team that came together around this, the timing of the problem, the types of problems they'd executed in the past.
00:13:17
Speaker
We're like, well, why not this team?
00:13:18
Speaker
If not them, then who is going to nail this?
00:13:21
Speaker
And maybe the founder opportunity fit part is just the broader opportunity in Jaron's vision for giving powerful data science and execution automation tools to the business user.
00:13:35
Speaker
And so I knew this played into a bigger Jaron passion of where he wanted to go.
00:13:40
Speaker
the founders that really build something special, they're motivated by a host of things, but especially solving the problem.
00:13:48
Speaker
And that's in the long form, like solving it over 15 years because the problem changes and it gets more complicated.
00:13:55
Speaker
So we love serial entrepreneurs that have had success and failure because they tend to take...
00:14:01
Speaker
Great lessons from both.
00:14:03
Speaker
I don't think Jaren's had any huge failures, but he's had companies where he's like, hey, that could have been bigger.
00:14:07
Speaker
I wish that I'd done that different.
00:14:09
Speaker
And he's naturally a very self-aware person that's constantly iterating, what am I learning?
00:14:15
Speaker
What am I learning?
00:14:16
Speaker
And so some of our biggest failures have been with serial entrepreneurs because they have a playbook that they just jam through on a different kind of business.
00:14:25
Speaker
But anytime we can back a serial entrepreneur, we get excited about it because it does create the opportunity of a company that learns fast and can beat competitors by a lot.
Creating a Culture of Transparency
00:14:35
Speaker
And Jaren, how did you make sure you weren't one of those founders that Gavin mentioned that just kind of applied the same thing, you know, just add water and stir to every one of your startups?
00:14:44
Speaker
Like, how do you make sure you have the self-awareness and what would you advise other founders on to make sure that they learn from their lessons?
00:14:53
Speaker
I think as a CEO, if you're not fairly obsessed, and as a founder, if you're not fairly obsessed about getting to the truth about yourself, the problem you're facing, information about the company in general, you're going to fail.
00:15:12
Speaker
I think I spend quite a bit of time trying to think about how do I get to the truth?
00:15:18
Speaker
Because there's so many competing incentives for, especially for founders to have a selection bias on what information they think about and they focus on.
00:15:28
Speaker
And frankly, as the company gets larger, you have to be very careful to create a culture where you're going to get the hard truths.
00:15:36
Speaker
said to you, or if they can't say it directly to you, then you need to create some channels where that information can get to you indirectly even.
00:15:43
Speaker
I think that's something I obsess actually a lot about as a CEO is how do I make sure that I'm actually hearing the truth and the hard truths that are latent within this incredible company of the wisdom of the crowd of these 250 people that are at Spiff with me.
00:16:05
Speaker
That's amazing.
00:16:06
Speaker
And I want to get a little bit deeper, Jaren, on what you said about having a culture that lets people express their hard truths or share hard truths.
00:16:15
Speaker
Do you have one or two points on how you actually created that?
00:16:20
Speaker
I love that question so much.
00:16:22
Speaker
But I'd love to be concise about it.
00:16:24
Speaker
Because I mean, there's probably 100 ways that we've tried to do that.
00:16:28
Speaker
I mean, in many ways, I view it as like a central theme of culture building at Spiff and at any company I've ever worked at.
00:16:34
Speaker
I mean, I came out of a philosophy undergrad.
00:16:36
Speaker
So I'm a huge fan of using what's called the Socratic method and identifying truth.
00:16:41
Speaker
It's really almost requires that there be multiple perspectives at the table at the same time, ideally even opposing perspectives.
00:16:50
Speaker
Because as you have these opposing perspectives, the truth will emerge more rapidly and more clearly.
00:16:56
Speaker
We don't have a checklist or even a set of core values that we hire against.
00:17:02
Speaker
We don't have a, hey, you're a culture fit at SPF.
00:17:06
Speaker
We never use those words.
00:17:07
Speaker
We use the words culture ad.
00:17:10
Speaker
And it's important for us because we don't want someone that fits us.
00:17:15
Speaker
We don't want another white male from Utah.
00:17:18
Speaker
You know, that's not what we're looking for.
00:17:21
Speaker
What we're looking for is someone who's going to challenge us in the right ways.
00:17:24
Speaker
It's a really wonderful metaphor, but pearls are made when an irritant gets inside a clam.
00:17:31
Speaker
And then because it's irritated over and over and over again, it forms this beautiful thing.
00:17:35
Speaker
And that's kind of similar in a culture.
00:17:37
Speaker
You need an irritant.
00:17:38
Speaker
You actually need someone who kind of bugs you.
00:17:40
Speaker
Sometimes someone who's like combating you and gets kind of like, gosh, dang it.
00:17:44
Speaker
Do I have to think about that again?
00:17:45
Speaker
Like, you're right.
00:17:46
Speaker
We're not doing enough of that, you know?
00:17:48
Speaker
And so I think there's just a lot we've done culturally.
00:17:53
Speaker
that to put it into a lot of our culture documents.
00:17:56
Speaker
Another thing that immediately sprang to mind was, I care so much about hard truths.
00:18:02
Speaker
Obviously, it's so much more functional in a culture to have a culture where people can, to your face, tell you a hard truth.
00:18:10
Speaker
That is the absolute gold standard.
00:18:13
Speaker
And what I want to strive for at any company that I'm a part of,
00:18:17
Speaker
But we care so much about our truths that we don't want the fact that you don't feel like you could do that.
00:18:24
Speaker
I couldn't call out the CEO in that conversation, or I couldn't argue with the head of marketing right there in a public spot.
00:18:31
Speaker
And so we also do a lot of anonymous polls.
Leadership and Mentorship at Spiff
00:18:35
Speaker
And one of the things I did very early on, which may seem silly, is we set up a hotline where people could call and express any concerns that they had about
00:18:46
Speaker
the direction of the company.
00:18:47
Speaker
We did it through email, you know, and we did it through surveys.
00:18:50
Speaker
But I also published an ethics document where I put the email address and phone number of my boss, which is the board, right there in the document.
00:18:59
Speaker
I said, if you ever have a concern with the CEO, go directly to my boss.
00:19:04
Speaker
It's not Gavin, thank goodness for him.
00:19:06
Speaker
I actually put Sean Jacobson, one of our other board members on there.
00:19:10
Speaker
But I'm hoping to model to them.
00:19:13
Speaker
We don't care about tattling on people.
00:19:15
Speaker
We don't care.
00:19:15
Speaker
What we want is the truth.
00:19:17
Speaker
We want whatever puts the company and moves the company forward.
00:19:21
Speaker
Yeah, those are interesting.
00:19:22
Speaker
And Gavin, how have you seen this play out at Spiff?
00:19:25
Speaker
I think leaders, and I think Jaron, Matt, and others at SPF are the kind of people who admit mistakes and own them and aren't afraid of being vulnerable in that way.
00:19:38
Speaker
I think it makes it okay for other people to not be defensive and hide mistakes.
00:19:43
Speaker
We're looking for the truth or the right answer as opposed to like trying to position who's right and who's wrong.
00:19:49
Speaker
And then I think that Jaron, and this is one of the things I always say about Jaron that's been really remarkable to watch is even from early BYU days, he's someone who loves mentoring people and has always spent an inordinate amount of time helping people advance their careers for no obvious reason other than just liking to do it and kind of
00:20:06
Speaker
wanting to help people.
00:20:08
Speaker
And so I think that's a natural part of the SPF culture where people really buy in like, oh, like this management team cares about my career and is trying to help me be successful.
00:20:18
Speaker
So I think it's like that trust, the comfort with vulnerability that allows for a dynamic where people are actually in search of the right answer instead of a perception of themselves.
00:20:30
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:31
Speaker
I think we're probably gonna have to have you back, Jaren, because Gavin touched on something that I wanted to dive into too.
00:20:35
Speaker
This time is your commitment to mentoring.
00:20:38
Speaker
But we'd like to end on a final question.
00:20:41
Speaker
And that is this.
00:20:42
Speaker
It is, what's an effective practice that you've implemented in your work or personal life that you think has had a great impact on your success?
00:20:50
Speaker
You know, it's funny.
00:20:51
Speaker
The one that just pops out to mind, I have become a much larger reader of business books,
00:21:00
Speaker
We have several teams.
00:21:01
Speaker
We have lots of different teams at SPF.
00:21:03
Speaker
And we very much have copied Weave and Brandon Rodman's.
00:21:07
Speaker
We don't have employees at SPF.
00:21:08
Speaker
We have team members.
00:21:09
Speaker
We never call them employees.
00:21:11
Speaker
So we're careful about how we name teams as well.
00:21:13
Speaker
But I have a C team, which is all the C-level folks and what we call an S team, which is the SVP and up team.
00:21:19
Speaker
And we have often picked books almost like a
00:21:23
Speaker
S team or C team book group, that has been wonderful, absolutely wonderful.
00:21:29
Speaker
Some of the highlights of my career have been picking a book and then coming together to discuss it.
00:21:36
Speaker
Not even making it like a true book group, but just being like, hey, how does it apply to this problem that we're struggling with right now?
00:21:42
Speaker
It's been amazing to see some of the insights that it unlocks when we do that together as a team.
00:21:48
Speaker
I really appreciate that.
00:21:49
Speaker
Yeah, Kevin, any thoughts on that?
00:21:51
Speaker
I think that's terrific advice.
00:21:53
Speaker
I think having the context of a book that we're reviewing helps us get us out of our paradigms, our biases and say, okay, how else can we approach this?
00:22:03
Speaker
So I think that's great advice.
00:22:04
Speaker
Yeah, I appreciate it.
00:22:05
Speaker
I love these themes of continually learning, finding the hard truths, coming at things from multiple perspectives
Conclusion and Closing Remarks
00:22:12
Speaker
and building.
00:22:12
Speaker
There's so much we could talk about, but Jaren, it's been so great to have you on the podcast today.
00:22:17
Speaker
Gavin, thank you as always for your insights and all that you bring and
00:22:21
Speaker
And it's been a great discussion.
00:22:23
Speaker
And thank you both.
00:22:24
Speaker
It's so fun to be here with you.
00:22:27
Speaker
And of course, thank you for listening as we dive deep into what it takes to create the perfect pitch.
00:22:32
Speaker
If you want to learn more about our investor, Gavin Christensen from Kickstart or our founder, Jaron Paul from Spiff, we'll have a link to the company and a longer bio in our show notes at kickstartfund.com.
00:22:43
Speaker
You can listen to more episodes of Perfect Pitch wherever you listen to your podcast.
00:22:46
Speaker
And if you like what you're learning, leave us a reviewer rating.
00:22:49
Speaker
We'll be back next time with more insights from entrepreneurs and the investors who fund them.
00:22:53
Speaker
So be sure to subscribe so you don't miss a thing.