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Insights on Remote Work with Arian Lewis
6 Plays3 years ago
Traditional offices are facing a renaissance of new technologies and co-working spaces. With the future of work changing so rapidly, we sat down with an industry expert. Someone who broke through a crowded market and found success by tweaking the recipe to an otherwise stale solution. Join us in today's conversation with Arian Lewis, Founder and CEO of Kiln, and investor Curt Roberts of Kickstart (a VC firm for startups in Utah, Colorado, and the Mountain West) as we bring you both sides of a Perfect Pitch. In this episode, we'll talk about:
How remote work impacted Kiln's beginnings, and why Kickstart invested
Why Arian felt confident Kiln would break through the crowded industry
Curt's advice to young entrepreneurs and how age can impact their success
What Arian anticipates for the future of work and shared office space
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Workspaces Evolution
00:00:00
Speaker
Traditional offices are facing a renaissance of new technologies and co-working spaces.
00:00:05
Speaker
With the future of work changing so rapidly, we sat down with an industry expert, someone who broke through a crowded market and found success by tweaking the recipe to an otherwise stale solution.
00:00:16
Speaker
Join us in today's conversation with Arian Lewis, founder and CEO of Kiln, and investor Kurt Roberts, as we bring you both sides of A Perfect Pitch.
00:00:34
Speaker
Perfect Pitch is a podcast from Kickstart that reveals the minds of both investors and entrepreneurs throughout a startup's journey.
Arian Lewis's Background
00:00:44
Speaker
I'm your host, Karen Zelnick.
00:00:45
Speaker
I'm really excited to introduce everybody.
00:00:47
Speaker
This is so fun to do this live.
00:00:48
Speaker
It is.
00:00:49
Speaker
I'm really excited to introduce everybody to today's guests.
00:00:52
Speaker
Arian, you earned your MBA from Oxford University with a focus on strategy and innovation.
00:00:57
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After co-founding two companies, you served as Director of Strategic Partnerships and Open Innovation at Barclays, a universal bank based in London.
00:01:05
Speaker
And I have been told that as a teenager, you spent three years building a spaceship simulator.
00:01:11
Speaker
I did indeed.
00:01:12
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Which is probably one of the most interesting facts we've shared about.
00:01:15
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Yeah, I would like tuck myself away late at night and watch Star Trek.
00:01:21
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And basically, I wanted to live out my dreams.
00:01:23
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So I built the bridge of the Starship Enterprise in my garage.
00:01:27
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That's amazing.
00:01:28
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And then I charged my friends money to come and play.
00:01:31
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That's even better.
00:01:33
Speaker
Yeah, no, it was a business for sure.
00:01:35
Speaker
That's even better.
00:01:36
Speaker
Do you have any photos of it?
00:01:38
Speaker
I do.
00:01:38
Speaker
I do have a few photos.
00:01:40
Speaker
We are going to have to put those in the show notes because that's impressive.
00:01:43
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That's amazing.
00:01:43
Speaker
And then anything else we should know about you?
00:01:46
Speaker
You know, we're coming to you live today from Kiln's podcast studio.
00:01:52
Speaker
I like to think of myself as a creative, although I know real creatives and I know that I'm not in that category, but
00:01:58
Speaker
I'd like to aspire to be a creative.
00:02:00
Speaker
How does that sound?
00:02:01
Speaker
I mean, I feel like building a spaceship simulator requires a lot of creativity.
00:02:06
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Yeah.
00:02:06
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I'll put you in that case.
00:02:07
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It was a serious fire hazard.
00:02:09
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Yeah.
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My mom couldn't get the house insurance renewed.
00:02:13
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So eventually we had to demolish it.
00:02:14
Speaker
Is that because you had like weapons?
00:02:17
Speaker
No, I did all the wiring myself.
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So I like started all these lights.
00:02:21
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You violated all kinds of code.
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It was a total fire hazard, just waiting to just blow up.
00:02:26
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Oh my gosh.
00:02:27
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I cannot wait to see the photos.
00:02:29
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That's so great.
00:02:30
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And Kurt, always great to have you back on the show.
00:02:32
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We have a link to your bio in our show notes.
00:02:35
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I do like to cover interesting facts about Kurt every time on the show.
00:02:38
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You're our travel enthusiast on the team.
00:02:40
Speaker
So tell us about a recent adventure you've been on.
00:02:43
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Okay, so back in June...
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I took my first multi-day bike tour, which was in Tuscany.
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We ended up, I think, climbing over 22,000 feet over six days, which for really serious cyclists is not that much.
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For me, it was an extraordinary amount.
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I survived it, but it was a delightful experience.
00:03:09
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I bet the food was good.
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The food was one of the reasons to do it.
00:03:13
Speaker
Yes.
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Absolutely right.
00:03:15
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Yeah, I'm picturing you on a bike with like a charcuterie board mounted to the front.
00:03:18
Speaker
No, no.
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Nothing like that.
00:03:20
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Yeah, a little spaghetti.
00:03:23
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No, that would have been really awful.
00:03:25
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Vino.
Kiln's Expansion and Vision
00:03:27
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So, Ari, let's get started and let's tell our listeners a little bit about Kiln.
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Okay, so Kiln is a boutique lifestyle brand.
00:03:36
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We are focused on elevating the quality of life while at work.
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We currently have locations in Utah, Idaho, Colorado, and California as of this week.
00:03:49
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Amazing.
00:03:50
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That's sort of like a round of applause.
00:03:51
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Yeah, we're really excited about that.
00:03:53
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So today we had a call with our team and we were talking about surfing and skiing and all the great things that you can do across our Kiln network.
00:04:03
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So it's really quite a fun business right now.
00:04:05
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We're expanding across primarily the Western part of the United States and we provide office to companies of 200 and under.
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And I only say that because we don't have offices for 200.
00:04:17
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But we have a lot of companies that use Kiln as a home base.
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Even if they're primarily a remote business, they use Kiln to gather and to connect and to build.
00:04:27
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So and in Utah, we have over 2000 members, over 350 companies called Kiln Home.
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So impressive.
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And the offices are beautiful.
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I feel like we should also post a video in our show notes of a walkthrough of some of the offices.
00:04:41
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But Kurt, you were introduced to Kiln at a time where shared workspace companies were crowding a very mature space.
00:04:48
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What made Kiln stand out?
00:04:50
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Yeah, we first met Arian and the founding team of Kiln several years ago as the company was just getting started.
00:04:56
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And we really didn't have an opportunity to invest early, but we had a sense of what Kiln was about.
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And Arian presented a vision and a confidence about what this company would be.
00:05:10
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that stood out to us as a likely world-class entrepreneur.
00:05:14
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And Aaron really wanted close partnerships with the venture funds in the area and invested a lot of time and effort in building those relationships with us.
00:05:23
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It wasn't really until COVID...
00:05:26
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that Arian and his team offered us the opportunity to take a look.
00:05:30
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And I think if I remember our conversations, Arian, you really didn't have much of a sense that this would be a high probability investment for us.
00:05:38
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It was kind of like, hey, if you want to take a look at this, great.
00:05:40
Speaker
Yeah, we don't sort of fit into your typical.
00:05:43
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Yeah, that's right.
00:05:45
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And if you look at Cailin as a real estate company, we definitely wouldn't be an investor in real estate companies.
00:05:51
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But the business model of Kiln is not that.
00:05:54
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It's more about the real estate investors capitalizing the sites.
00:05:59
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And then Kiln is a management company over the top that really manages the experience and makes sure that each of these sites is in the right place with the right experience delivering the right services to the tenants.
00:06:11
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And we expected, I think, given what was happening in COVID, that even though shared workspace felt like a relatively saturated business, we really believed that these new behaviors of remote work would probably have some
00:06:28
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durability, and that we would see companies over time really not choosing to lease in the traditional old way, having all of their employees come into a central office every day and signing these long, expensive leases with little flexibility about how much space they took.
00:06:44
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It's all a long way of saying it felt to us like the right time to make a bet based upon how Kiln has performed not only during COVID, which was really tricky because nobody was supposed to be in person anywhere.
00:06:57
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Given how the company's performed as COVID restrictions have relaxed and the company is growing and my role as an observer on the board, I see what the plans look like for the continued growth of the company.
00:07:07
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And so I think we made a really, really good bet here.
00:07:11
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And Arian's was like, yeah, you did.
00:07:13
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You made a very good bet.
00:07:14
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You made a good bet.
00:07:15
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But it was more than just a bet.
00:07:17
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I actually think it's a good strategic relationship and one that there's value being added on both sides.
00:07:24
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And so we've really been grateful to actually have Kurt and Kickstart be a part of evolving our strategy and informing the decisions that we make at the top of the company.
00:07:35
Speaker
Could you talk a little bit more about how that strategy has evolved since Kickstart's investment?
Kiln as a Lifestyle Brand
00:07:40
Speaker
I think the big change is that we no longer see Kiln just as an office solution.
00:07:48
Speaker
We see it as a lifestyle brand that is going to actually serve a variety of needs for remote-first companies, companies that use hybrid work, and companies that are still looking at the way that they looked at office pre-pandemic.
00:08:04
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There's a big spectrum now of the way that people are looking at the use of office, whereas prior to the pandemic, it was pretty standard.
00:08:13
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And it's evolving.
00:08:14
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The key thing is that FlexOffice comprises less than 1% of office space in the markets that we're working within.
00:08:22
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And it's expected to go to 30% by 2030.
00:08:26
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So there's a huge amount of opportunity.
00:08:28
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It's really about executing and understanding what customer that you want to serve.
00:08:33
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So the shared workspace is a crowded industry.
00:08:36
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What fueled your confidence that Kiln would be the new and improved version of what was already there?
00:08:42
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It may have felt crowded because there was a lot of momentum around WeWork at the time.
00:08:48
Speaker
But the truth of the matter is that it is a very young industry.
00:08:53
Speaker
If you look at hotels back in the 1960s, pre the Marriott's of the world coming in and building these incredible brands and networks, that's kind of where FlexOffice is at today.
00:09:06
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I had done and built Flex Office in London and New York and Tel Aviv and Cape Town, South Africa and Lombay and Vilnius, Lithuania and Manchester, England.
00:09:17
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Speaking of travel enthusiasts.
00:09:19
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Yeah.
00:09:20
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I love to travel as well.
00:09:22
Speaker
And I had a really wonderful time building Rise.
00:09:25
Speaker
And Rise is a durable brand.
00:09:27
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It's actually still operating successfully.
00:09:29
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It just expanded.
00:09:30
Speaker
In fact, there was a new location that launched in Pune, India just this last month.
00:09:34
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So...
00:09:35
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I learned a lot about the product and the way that the product works in different cultures and environments.
00:09:41
Speaker
And I began to see the opportunity that was here in Utah.
00:09:44
Speaker
I actually went to Adam Neumann, the founder of WeWork.
00:09:47
Speaker
I was living in Connecticut, working in New York at the time.
00:09:50
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I met up with Adam and I said, Adam, I'm going to create a co-working brand in Utah.
00:09:55
Speaker
He's like, Utah?
00:09:57
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He's like, what is Utah?
00:09:58
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And Utah is a pretty cool place.
00:10:00
Speaker
There's some stuff happening.
00:10:01
Speaker
He's like, you got to start a brand like a co-working brand in urban market.
00:10:06
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And I said, no, I actually want to do suburban co-working in tier two and tier three markets.
00:10:11
Speaker
He's like, okay, well, whatever you do, you got to go big.
00:10:14
Speaker
You got to go with 40,000 spur feet or larger.
00:10:17
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You can't make small locations work.
00:10:18
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There's some truth to what he said there, actually.
00:10:21
Speaker
But the key thing was, I actually talked to Adam, and I found that I had a slightly different opinion of what we should do, obviously.
00:10:29
Speaker
And I wanted to come to Utah because there's a home court advantage.
00:10:32
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I'm from Utah.
00:10:33
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I hadn't been living here for 17 years, but felt like I understood the market.
00:10:38
Speaker
And I could see how the things that we did in these major markets like London and New York, if we were to bring that to Utah, that I felt it would really resonate with a segment of the market here.
00:10:50
Speaker
And it has.
00:10:51
Speaker
Let's talk about the timing.
00:10:52
Speaker
Why was the timing right to start tailing?
Rise and Co-working Vision
00:10:55
Speaker
Well, I mean, I could give you a couple different answers.
00:10:57
Speaker
I'll give you the honest answer, which is we had tried to spin Rise out of Barclays and turn it into its own company.
00:11:04
Speaker
I had founded Rise from within Barclays, but it was its own brand.
00:11:08
Speaker
And will you tell us, actually, I'm going to interrupt you.
00:11:09
Speaker
Tell us a little bit about Rise.
00:11:11
Speaker
I was brought to Barclays from a company called Tech Capital.
00:11:14
Speaker
I was a co-founder of Tech Capital.
00:11:16
Speaker
We took it public on the London AIM market, which is a small sub-market of the London Stock Exchange.
00:11:24
Speaker
And I had focused in that company on open innovation or the practice of building multiple products with multiple parties, not necessarily building a product through a vertical integration process like within a company.
00:11:38
Speaker
And Barclays was trying to figure out how they could build new products and services with fintech companies, fintech startups.
00:11:45
Speaker
And so I was brought in to figure that out.
00:11:47
Speaker
And the way that we decided to solve part of that was that instead of bringing startups into a boardroom and reviewing their deck and deciding, okay, we should go with this one or that one.
00:11:58
Speaker
We said, no, we actually need to work around these companies and get better exposure in a more casual setting.
00:12:04
Speaker
So I convinced them to start a co-working space.
00:12:07
Speaker
I had studied co-working as an MBA student and thought this could be interesting.
00:12:11
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We launched the co-working space in Whitechapel, London, which was like a really rough part of London.
00:12:17
Speaker
We took an old department store that had been abandoned and we turned it into a wonderful co-working space for fintech companies.
00:12:24
Speaker
And we hosted the very first meetups for Ethereum with Vitalik.
00:12:29
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We had some of the earliest blockchain companies come out of that location, Everledger, Chainalysis,
00:12:35
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a number of others.
00:12:36
Speaker
And it was very successful.
00:12:38
Speaker
And then we launched it across the world.
00:12:41
Speaker
The original brand was actually called Escalator.
00:12:43
Speaker
The Escalator.
00:12:44
Speaker
It's a bad name.
00:12:45
Speaker
It's a bad, bad name.
00:12:47
Speaker
Everybody was like, is it an incubator?
00:12:49
Speaker
Is it an accelerator?
00:12:50
Speaker
No, it's an Escalator.
00:12:51
Speaker
No, it's an Escalator.
00:12:52
Speaker
We thought we could come over.
00:12:53
Speaker
It moves very slowly, but it actually does go up.
00:12:56
Speaker
Does go up.
00:12:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:57
Speaker
That was the idea.
00:12:58
Speaker
Unless you get on the wrong one and you're going down.
00:13:00
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And then you have a problem.
00:13:01
Speaker
And then you're running up, going down.
00:13:03
Speaker
The point is, it was bad brand, but Rise was the same idea.
00:13:08
Speaker
So we launched this thing across the world.
00:13:11
Speaker
It was very innovative for Barclays at the time.
00:13:13
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We built a 200 million pound venture fund that sat alongside it and invested in the company's.
00:13:18
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we built an accelerator with Techstars.
00:13:21
Speaker
And it's the largest accelerator, global accelerator in the world because we had four locations, London, New York, Tel Aviv, and Cape Town, where we were operating this accelerator.
00:13:31
Speaker
And then we built our own accelerators in Mumbai, Vilnius, and Manchester.
00:13:36
Speaker
And we had over 90 new products a year being created for and with Barclays.
00:13:43
Speaker
We signed, on average, about 70 contracts between Barclays and
00:13:48
Speaker
these startups on an annual basis.
00:13:51
Speaker
And it really was and still is an important engine of innovation for Barclays, which is the fourth largest financial services company in the world, a trillion dollars under management.
00:14:02
Speaker
And I worked very closely with the chief design and digital officer, which is a guy named Derek White, who's now here in Utah and then Galileo.
00:14:09
Speaker
I worked closely with the group COO and eventually with the group chairman and CEO
00:14:14
Speaker
And it was an important part of their strategy, but they loved it so much they wouldn't spin it out.
00:14:19
Speaker
And so I left.
00:14:20
Speaker
Was the primary concern that they would lose their preferred position in relationships with these fintechs if it went independent?
00:14:28
Speaker
Exactly.
00:14:29
Speaker
But what was happening was Goldman Sachs and Bank of America and Bank Lumi and Mitsubishi Bank in Japan were all contacting us and saying, we want access to these same startups.
00:14:40
Speaker
Could we, quote unquote, pay a membership?
00:14:43
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These would not be small memberships.
00:14:44
Speaker
These would be like $5 to $20 million a year memberships.
00:14:48
Speaker
And we thought we could build a global,
00:14:51
Speaker
network of fintech focused co-working locations with contracts with the world's largest financial institutions.
00:14:59
Speaker
And we absolutely could have if there had been a willingness to let go.
00:15:04
Speaker
And what it would have done is would have brought even more deal flow to Barclays.
00:15:07
Speaker
Interesting.
00:15:08
Speaker
But big companies have a hard time changing.
00:15:11
Speaker
Yes, they do.
00:15:12
Speaker
In fact, for Barclays, honestly, to make
00:15:15
Speaker
That commitment is pretty unusual, I would say, for a large financial institution.
00:15:19
Speaker
We started with $700,000 a budget, and then we got $15 million, and then we got $23 million.
00:15:26
Speaker
So we raised money actually inside of the company.
00:15:30
Speaker
We went around on a roadshow inside the company.
00:15:34
Speaker
There were 36 different companies within Barclays.
00:15:37
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:38
Speaker
So... Yeah, it's interesting you describe the experience that way because I had the same experience building Nike Plus at Nike.
00:15:46
Speaker
I was lucky when we started to get $2 million.
00:15:50
Speaker
convinced the CFO while I was in my car driving home one night to purchase some patents that would allow us to develop the first version of the device.
00:15:58
Speaker
Otherwise, I didn't have anything.
00:16:00
Speaker
And we basically had to build a working model of it and ultimately pitch that working model to Apple in order to get any interest on the part of the bigger Nike machine to support it.
00:16:13
Speaker
So yeah, innovation in a big company is a very, very challenging thing.
00:16:16
Speaker
Yeah, but it allowed me to do something, which is to test out my thinking around the model of co-working.
00:16:24
Speaker
And you learned a ton.
00:16:25
Speaker
Yeah, learned a lot, learned a lot and had the experience of learning from a world-class organization at the same time.
00:16:33
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:34
Speaker
So what were those learnings?
00:16:35
Speaker
What did you take from that that you now implemented at Kilm?
00:16:38
Speaker
Yeah, so I learned how to identify and understand new markets.
00:16:41
Speaker
Because I was going, again, from India to Israel to London to New York.
00:16:47
Speaker
And I was having to evaluate the market and its readiness for the product.
00:16:52
Speaker
That was important.
00:16:53
Speaker
Learned how to build the product.
00:16:55
Speaker
The co-founder of Kiln, Lee Radford, was the creative director for that brand as well.
00:17:01
Speaker
He designed all the locations.
00:17:03
Speaker
So very importantly, relationships.
00:17:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:17:06
Speaker
have now become a really important part of Kiln.
00:17:09
Speaker
And I learned how the spaces should function and what worked well and what didn't.
00:17:13
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I really want to dive a couple layers deep on that.
Insights and Market Exploration
00:17:16
Speaker
Identifying new markets.
00:17:18
Speaker
How would you coach a new entrepreneur on how to do that?
00:17:22
Speaker
Spend time in the market and talk to people.
00:17:26
Speaker
The best kind of data, I think, actually comes from interactions.
00:17:30
Speaker
But you have to have a lot of them talking with people.
00:17:34
Speaker
That will give you the best insight.
00:17:35
Speaker
You can pull data.
00:17:37
Speaker
But the funny thing about data is it usually tells you what you want it to.
00:17:40
Speaker
But people don't.
00:17:42
Speaker
That's really interesting.
00:17:43
Speaker
And then for relationships, how would you coach an entrepreneur?
00:17:47
Speaker
Every relationship that you build is connected in some way, somehow, to every other relationship that you build.
00:17:55
Speaker
I left a company once.
00:17:56
Speaker
It was a wonderful eight years I had with this company, Pulte Homes.
00:18:01
Speaker
My dad called me and he said, whatever you do, make sure you leave on the very strongest note possible.
00:18:10
Speaker
Leave a company the way you would want to start in a company.
00:18:13
Speaker
I really thought about that.
00:18:15
Speaker
And, you know, those relationships from those days have also played into my future.
00:18:22
Speaker
And so I guess the key thing is don't burn bridges, build bridges and do your best to maintain them.
00:18:29
Speaker
Somehow, some way they all come together in sort of a remarkable way.
00:18:35
Speaker
Yeah, I'd love your reaction to that.
00:18:36
Speaker
Both those things, entering new markets and relationships.
00:18:40
Speaker
I'll comment on relationships first.
00:18:42
Speaker
I think that insight is exactly right.
00:18:45
Speaker
I'm not sure I've been as effective at that as Arian has.
00:18:50
Speaker
But if I go back over my career personally and this...
00:18:56
Speaker
relatively discontinuous jumps that I made from one industry to something completely different.
00:19:04
Speaker
And I've now done that four times.
00:19:07
Speaker
In all four of those cases, the opportunity to do so presented itself because of relationships I had fostered with people that then initiated conversations with me and
00:19:20
Speaker
about opportunities to get involved, possibly by changing employment.
00:19:25
Speaker
So people talk about networking as being something that you really need to do.
00:19:31
Speaker
I would say networking for networking's sake is not horribly useful.
00:19:37
Speaker
What made those relationships powerful for me was that the people that then presented me with those opportunities had actually seen my work.
00:19:47
Speaker
They didn't just know who I was.
00:19:50
Speaker
The fact that they had the chance to see my work as long as my work was good, that presented the opportunity for those things to happen.
00:19:57
Speaker
And you don't get that in networking events.
00:20:00
Speaker
I think part of what Aaron is describing is that for those relationships to be powerful, these people have to know you at a pretty deep level.
00:20:08
Speaker
And that depth, I think, includes some assessment of your competency and your professionalism and your ability to deliver great work.
00:20:16
Speaker
If that happens, folks will always be there to help you along the way.
00:20:21
Speaker
So the thing that we sometimes don't
00:20:26
Speaker
emphasize, especially with younger entrepreneurs, is that what investors actually are looking for is patterns.
00:20:33
Speaker
Patterns of success, patterns of resilience, patterns of persistence, patterns of innovation and success.
00:20:40
Speaker
And it isn't just, do you have a good business idea?
00:20:44
Speaker
Do you have a model?
00:20:45
Speaker
It's really like if we look back through the story of this founder, do we see points of success and strength and resilience along the way?
00:20:55
Speaker
And this is why I think it can be a little challenging if you start a company straight out of college.
00:21:01
Speaker
I think some people it's going to work for.
00:21:04
Speaker
But I think sometimes if you can say, hey, I'm going to take a decade and I'm going to build up a professional acumen and I'm going to show a pattern of commitment and success and hard work, that can really set you up for success as an entrepreneur.
Building Professional Acumen
00:21:21
Speaker
It's not just about having the desire to start a company.
00:21:23
Speaker
I had that desire when I built the simulator.
00:21:25
Speaker
I had a snow removal company at 14 years old that I ran for three years.
00:21:30
Speaker
But you know what's funny is the first people that invested in Kiln, they knew that I was shoveling snow when I was 16 years old at four in the morning for three hours every time it snowed.
00:21:41
Speaker
And they knew that I would shovel whatever I had to shovel here at Kiln to get it off the ground.
00:21:46
Speaker
And I think that those histories are really important.
00:21:49
Speaker
They're an important part of our own story.
00:21:50
Speaker
So if you're a teenager and you want to be an entrepreneur, work hard.
00:21:54
Speaker
Show that you can work hard.
00:21:55
Speaker
Show that you can fail and get back up again.
00:21:58
Speaker
And if you're a college student, consider going to work for one of the best firms in the world and being an entrepreneur to a degree inside of that firm.
00:22:07
Speaker
in building your professional acumen before you decide that you want to go out and build a business model.
00:22:12
Speaker
I think Arian's right about that.
00:22:14
Speaker
Not just because I've observed it myself, but because the data supports it very, very clearly.
00:22:21
Speaker
If you look at investment returns across all of venture capital, and you correlate those returns to the age of the founding CEO, the highest performing
00:22:35
Speaker
age cohort is founders in their late 40s.
00:22:39
Speaker
And we tend to have this profile of a classic entrepreneur as being someone who is quite young.
00:22:46
Speaker
We have these iconic Bill Gates and people that dropped out of college that started a company and now it's become Facebook.
00:22:54
Speaker
Zuckerberg.
00:22:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:56
Speaker
And that's just not normal.
00:22:58
Speaker
And if you really look at the story of those companies, there was usually somebody around that founder early in the journey as well that was bringing some strength and experience.
00:23:08
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:08
Speaker
It was an important part of the story.
00:23:09
Speaker
Yeah, that's right.
00:23:10
Speaker
Yeah, I don't want to make comments that would discourage young entrepreneurs from pursuing their business.
00:23:17
Speaker
That said, I think we definitely do see a general pattern that would suggest that for those youngest entrepreneurs, as long as they know what they don't know and surround themselves with people who help them avoid blind spots that otherwise are avoidable if you experience them on somebody else's dime, then they're going to be successful.
00:23:40
Speaker
The ones that are challenging, I think, are young entrepreneurs that really do believe
00:23:45
Speaker
that they know everything they need to know, don't listen to advice, oftentimes they're going to make some very, very serious and big mistakes and those mistakes come at a cost.
00:23:55
Speaker
Which can be your critical learning.
00:23:57
Speaker
You can learn from your mistakes.
00:23:59
Speaker
Yes.
00:23:59
Speaker
The one thing I will say is that if I were to give myself advice, I would have gone back to myself and said, there's a few critical things.
00:24:08
Speaker
The first decade of your career needs to be not about earning,
00:24:13
Speaker
I was very focused on earning money.
00:24:15
Speaker
It should not be about earning.
00:24:17
Speaker
It should be about learning.
00:24:18
Speaker
You should try and figure out how you can learn everything possible in that first decade and then see what you can deploy in the next decade.
00:24:27
Speaker
That is a very wise perspective, I think.
00:24:30
Speaker
And it really sets you up for success.
00:24:32
Speaker
Kurt, do you have any reactions to that?
00:24:33
Speaker
Yeah, there are certainly opportunities that people can take out of either undergraduate or graduate school that give you both.
00:24:41
Speaker
I had that opportunity.
00:24:43
Speaker
I had the good fortune coming out of graduate school to go into McKinsey, which was about as intensive a learning environment as you could hope for.
00:24:50
Speaker
For sure.
00:24:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:24:51
Speaker
I mean, the kind where my brain hurt at the end of every day.
00:24:56
Speaker
And it also paid pretty well.
00:24:58
Speaker
So those things sometimes do come together.
00:25:01
Speaker
But you know where I see in Utah in particular this being a problem?
00:25:05
Speaker
Direct sales.
00:25:07
Speaker
Yes.
00:25:07
Speaker
100%.
00:25:07
Speaker
You can get locked into really good income and you've built a team underneath you and every summer you're raking in cash.
00:25:16
Speaker
But you do get to a point in your career where
00:25:19
Speaker
Because you haven't built a more broad-based business acumen, you're limited in what you can do in the next phase of your career.
00:25:27
Speaker
That's absolutely right.
00:25:28
Speaker
And then the other thing is I had a close friend.
00:25:31
Speaker
We both co-founded a company in our teen years.
00:25:34
Speaker
He decided rather than go to school and get professional experience, he was just going to become an entrepreneur.
00:25:41
Speaker
And I think that because he wasn't learning from others around him, he was learning through his own experimentation.
00:25:47
Speaker
But I think that there are some learnings that have been harder for him to capture.
00:25:52
Speaker
And all I'm getting at is if you know you're an entrepreneur, if you deep down know that, don't feel like you have to go out and start a company right away.
00:26:00
Speaker
You can work for an entrepreneur, you can work in a startup or in a scale up or in a big corporate that's in an industry you're interested in.
00:26:09
Speaker
It's about learning and then deploying that learning rather than just, I want to start a business, I'm going to go start a company.
00:26:17
Speaker
I think that's a really, really great insight.
00:26:19
Speaker
Kurt, you said you had thoughts too on both relationships and entering new markets.
00:26:23
Speaker
I would love your insights on entering new markets.
Real-time Product Testing
00:26:25
Speaker
Yeah, I want to actually tell maybe a little bit of a story on that to reinforce what Arian is saying.
00:26:32
Speaker
It is all too common, I think, for companies large and small to rely upon paid research and
00:26:41
Speaker
quantitative data about markets and market opportunities, that research doesn't tell you very much about what you should build or how you should build it.
00:26:50
Speaker
It might give you a big sense of what's possible, but that's about as far as it goes.
00:26:57
Speaker
And the story I'll tell is around an experience that I observed at Nike.
00:27:02
Speaker
I wasn't on the team that was doing this, but Nike had tried at least four times to enter the world of skateboarding with an authentic skate product that would serve the athlete of that space in the same way that they do in running or basketball or soccer.
00:27:20
Speaker
and had failed.
00:27:22
Speaker
And pretty consistently, if you ask skaters, Nike was seen as a pretender in this space.
00:27:29
Speaker
They wanted to take advantage of the sport as opposed to supporting it.
00:27:32
Speaker
So we ultimately ended up taking this very cagey savvy Nike veteran who'd been around a long time.
00:27:39
Speaker
And we separated him out from the rest of the beast, you know, the big machinery that was just there to rake in large amounts of money in sales.
00:27:50
Speaker
And we said, look, you've got some budget.
00:27:53
Speaker
Go figure this out.
00:27:55
Speaker
We failed over and over again.
00:27:56
Speaker
We're not ready to accept that we can't be legitimate in that sport.
00:28:01
Speaker
Here's what he did.
00:28:03
Speaker
He went to Orange County.
00:28:05
Speaker
Southern California, and hung out at skate parks.
00:28:08
Speaker
Smart.
00:28:09
Speaker
And he took a designer with him, and they would watch these skaters, and the designer would sit there and sketch, and while the skaters were resting, they'd walk up and talk to him and say, hey, we're from Nike, don't
00:28:21
Speaker
Don't shut us.
00:28:22
Speaker
We just want to see how you skate and what you do and ask you questions about what's working for you now and what you wish was better.
00:28:32
Speaker
As a result of that, they would not just gather that information, but live and in real time, they would sit there and sketch product and say, okay, we're thinking something like this.
00:28:41
Speaker
They'd actually show it to them.
00:28:42
Speaker
Yes.
00:28:42
Speaker
That's super cool.
00:28:43
Speaker
Then, once they had some sort of concepts ready, they invited some of these better skaters up to Nike's sports research lab where they would actually put all these instrumentation on them, slow motion video, watch where the forces were and where problems were with the product where you could see it was compromising.
00:29:03
Speaker
put a first generation of product out on the basis of those insights, relaunched and really succeeded.
00:29:10
Speaker
I mean, a mainstream skate brand, but it took what people might discount as anecdotes.
00:29:17
Speaker
You know, that's not data.
00:29:18
Speaker
That's just anecdotes.
00:29:20
Speaker
It took that level of insight to ultimately create the product that allowed Nike to successfully enter the sport after failing multiple times.
00:29:29
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:30
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:31
Speaker
And all the McKinsey consultants in the world could build.
00:29:35
Speaker
Could not have done that.
00:29:36
Speaker
And I just, I do love those stories because the truth is we think that it's about being really sophisticated.
00:29:44
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:45
Speaker
And actually, most good decisions in business are made on sort of these grassroots basis and on intuition.
00:29:54
Speaker
And intuition is not magic.
00:29:56
Speaker
Intuition is experience meeting opportunity.
00:30:00
Speaker
And experience should be trusted.
00:30:02
Speaker
And we can trust when you've synthesized the information in your head and you're somebody that has experience.
00:30:08
Speaker
And then you can trust your intuition.
00:30:11
Speaker
But we do have this thing that we oftentimes shine like, well, we can't make a business decision based on intuition.
00:30:18
Speaker
But I really love the experimentation there.
00:30:20
Speaker
A lot of companies spend a lot of money wasting time when they should just go talk to the customer.
00:30:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:27
Speaker
Sketching out a shoe in front of the customer and getting instant feedback, that's totally brilliant.
00:30:32
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:32
Speaker
It's what it took to succeed.
00:30:34
Speaker
I think that companies go through revolutions where they get very confident in their product and then they find it harder and harder to actually make monumental improvements in their innovation versus incremental improvements.
Innovation at Kiln
00:30:47
Speaker
So Aaron, how are you making sure that you don't do that at Kiln, that your innovation doesn't stop?
00:30:52
Speaker
Well, that's a great question.
00:30:53
Speaker
It is the thing that I worry about the most, that we will scale without improving the product sufficiently during that process.
00:31:02
Speaker
We just launched a really cool collaboration with Sundance.
00:31:05
Speaker
We built this cabin on wheels.
00:31:08
Speaker
It's a meeting room in the mountains.
00:31:09
Speaker
It's quite cool.
00:31:11
Speaker
It's pretty cool, actually.
00:31:12
Speaker
What's really interesting is the response.
00:31:15
Speaker
I've been getting text messages, emails.
00:31:18
Speaker
Hey, can I book this?
00:31:19
Speaker
Hey, I got a buddy that wants this.
00:31:20
Speaker
You know, in Utah, everybody's ready for the hookup.
00:31:23
Speaker
But not the wrong kind of hookup, by the way.
00:31:25
Speaker
For anyone that's listening.
00:31:27
Speaker
The favorite.
00:31:28
Speaker
If they were saying this in LA, maybe it's a little different.
00:31:31
Speaker
Yes.
00:31:31
Speaker
Yeah.
00:31:32
Speaker
But in Utah, we have a favor culture.
00:31:36
Speaker
But at any rate, we built this beautiful thing that is totally mobile, that's completely off the grid, that has power and AC powered through sunlight, which is really cool.
00:31:49
Speaker
And it's in the most beautiful environment you can possibly imagine in this Aspen Grove up in Sundance.
00:31:55
Speaker
There's a wonderful collaboration with this very forward-thinking and thoughtful team at Sundance.
00:32:02
Speaker
And it's a step forward for us because we know that we're not about office.
00:32:06
Speaker
We're about the future of work.
00:32:09
Speaker
And that should lead us in a variety of very interesting directions.
00:32:13
Speaker
For example, I don't think we should ever build a meeting room again.
00:32:16
Speaker
I think we should only build film studios where you can have a meeting.
00:32:19
Speaker
Say more about that.
00:32:21
Speaker
I don't think people want to hold meetings anymore.
00:32:23
Speaker
I think they want to hold mini productions.
00:32:26
Speaker
It's sounding to me like Arian wants to elevate the world's consciousness.
00:32:30
Speaker
Yeah, I'm like, this is getting... We're getting deeper.
00:32:32
Speaker
Not quite the consciousness.
00:32:34
Speaker
I just think you want your meeting quality to be high.
00:32:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:32:40
Speaker
And it's not just about a transactional exchange of information.
00:32:43
Speaker
It's about engagement.
00:32:45
Speaker
So what I'm kind of getting at is the future of work is very dynamic.
00:32:52
Speaker
And if we just think about where work was 10 years ago, and we fast forward another 10 years, work and lifestyle are going to continue to merge.
00:33:00
Speaker
They're going to bleed together.
00:33:03
Speaker
And we're going to see that work can be done from a lot of places and people will pick work that enhances the quality of their life, not just their wallets.
00:33:12
Speaker
Kurt, do you agree?
00:33:13
Speaker
I do.
00:33:15
Speaker
I think that's right.
00:33:16
Speaker
I think it's humans create meaning.
00:33:18
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:19
Speaker
And work, it occupies so much of our time that it's really impossible, I think, for the balance of a person's life to create that sort of sufficient level of meaning and purpose without work supporting that in a very direct way.
00:33:35
Speaker
You know, again, it's easy to look at Kiln and its early incarnations as just being an elevated execution of co-working.
Contrasting Workspaces
00:33:44
Speaker
And when people ask me about Kiln and why we invested in Kiln that are not familiar with the company, it's sort of the easiest shorthand way of describing it.
00:33:53
Speaker
It's like, well, so why would you invest in co-working?
00:33:57
Speaker
Well, you sort of have to go experience it to really understand why it's different.
00:34:03
Speaker
One of the companies we invested in, for example, last year or two years ago, Occupy Space in the WeWork facility in Lehigh.
00:34:12
Speaker
And it is absolutely fascinating to go to both facilities and notice the difference between the two.
00:34:20
Speaker
There's a part of me that wants to take a GoPro or just pull out my iPhone and take some video as you walk around the space.
00:34:26
Speaker
the space at WeWork is dead.
00:34:29
Speaker
I mean, it is not an exaggeration.
00:34:31
Speaker
Do you mean dead in terms of occupancy or dead in terms of energy?
00:34:34
Speaker
Occupancy is definitely low.
00:34:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:37
Speaker
But it is not designed in such a way that it facilitates collaboration and encounter energy or any energy.
00:34:45
Speaker
And so you walk into that space and you think,
00:34:48
Speaker
okay, I could rent space here, but it wouldn't really be any different from me working in a normal office.
00:34:55
Speaker
In fact, it would be worse in a lot of ways.
00:34:58
Speaker
And then you go to a kiln and it's a beehive of energy, right?
00:35:03
Speaker
It's just a completely different experience.
00:35:06
Speaker
And you really have to, I think, sit down with Arian and Lee and
00:35:10
Speaker
and understand all of the little details about how that gets created, it's almost a Disney-like execution, right?
00:35:19
Speaker
Where everything is thoughtfully done.
00:35:21
Speaker
None of this is by chance.
00:35:24
Speaker
And that was a big confidence builder for us that they were onto an insight that was going to be really different.
00:35:30
Speaker
Yeah, like I think we need another episode where... Because you talked about one of the things you learned was designing product.
00:35:35
Speaker
I think we need to sit down like Kurt said and just talk through...
00:35:38
Speaker
I think that would be really cool.
00:35:40
Speaker
I think it'd be amazing.
00:35:41
Speaker
Well, we do have, Kiln has over 20 different bespoke products that we've designed, and they may seem simple like a desk.
00:35:48
Speaker
There's actually a lot of care and thought put into them.
00:35:51
Speaker
A lot of people underestimate the importance of the environment that's around you.
00:35:57
Speaker
So, for example, a company that's going into an environment where the energy is low,
00:36:02
Speaker
I would argue is probably getting 5% less energy out of their team.
00:36:07
Speaker
We don't have good ways to measure that right now, but it's real.
00:36:11
Speaker
And so I think that going cheap on trying to go into Uncle Joe's back office and get some IKEA desks, you're missing the most important thing, which is that you have a very limited amount of time
00:36:24
Speaker
And the only way you maximize that time is through your energy and your output.
00:36:30
Speaker
And so any inputs to that energy are going to result in better outputs.
00:36:36
Speaker
Yeah, there is a lot of data around that too.
00:36:38
Speaker
And even helping people with ADHD actually focus.
00:36:42
Speaker
There's a lot of psychological things to that.
00:36:44
Speaker
So I have ADHD.
00:36:47
Speaker
So do I. Yeah.
00:36:49
Speaker
And a lot of founders are on the ADHD spectrum.
00:36:52
Speaker
I don't know what you'd call it.
00:36:53
Speaker
But what I'll tell you is that most people at Kiln, they spend less than half their time at their desk.
00:36:58
Speaker
Do you know that?
00:36:59
Speaker
It's really interesting.
00:37:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:37:00
Speaker
And they move between these different environments.
00:37:02
Speaker
They might be sitting in front of the fireplace working, and then they might go into a meeting room or they might be in a casual area of the space or in the kitchen.
00:37:10
Speaker
Kurt and I today were in two different environments in the course of an hour.
00:37:15
Speaker
Right.
00:37:16
Speaker
Each of them was kind of fun and interesting in its own way.
00:37:18
Speaker
Right.
00:37:18
Speaker
Right.
00:37:19
Speaker
I finished a book recently called Joyful, written by Ingrid Lee.
00:37:23
Speaker
She was a senior leader at IDEO, which is, of course, one of the best design firms in the world.
00:37:30
Speaker
And each of these chapters dealt with different dimensions of design and experience that actually change human behavior.
00:37:39
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:37:40
Speaker
There's a whole chapter on color.
00:37:42
Speaker
There's a chapter on shape.
00:37:44
Speaker
Love the color.
00:37:44
Speaker
There's a chapter on nature and how nature affects us.
00:37:48
Speaker
You know, those little insights, to Arian's point, if you get 5% more...
00:37:56
Speaker
out of your entire workforce because of the environment they're working in.
00:38:00
Speaker
And I'm not talking about 5% more hours spent at work.
00:38:04
Speaker
It's just 5% more effectiveness.
00:38:07
Speaker
The compound effect of that over time gets huge.
00:38:11
Speaker
So the thoughtfulness that goes into the space that people work in, I think is a big deal.
00:38:17
Speaker
It's one of the reasons why personally,
00:38:20
Speaker
I am betting that this phenomenon of remote work, that pendulum is going to shift back
Inspiring Collaborative Environments
00:38:26
Speaker
a bit.
00:38:26
Speaker
And it's not because we don't want people working from home.
00:38:30
Speaker
It's because the experience of working from home and how people can develop and grow and build relationships is compromised.
00:38:40
Speaker
There's a lot of information that we don't know yet, which is when we're together, there is actually an exchange of energy.
00:38:46
Speaker
Yes.
00:38:46
Speaker
It's happening.
00:38:47
Speaker
Yes.
00:38:48
Speaker
Doesn't happen on Zoom.
00:38:49
Speaker
seeing it, but it's real.
00:38:51
Speaker
That's right.
00:38:52
Speaker
The most complicated problems in the world are not going to get solved by individuals sitting in the solemnity of their own room.
00:39:00
Speaker
There is no question in my mind that you are correct.
00:39:03
Speaker
If you want to do something great, you need to do it with other people, and you need to combine your creativity with theirs.
00:39:09
Speaker
Yes.
00:39:10
Speaker
And our job, I think, is not just to demand that people return to work.
00:39:16
Speaker
It's to create an environment that they crave going to.
00:39:20
Speaker
I'm using the title.
00:39:23
Speaker
It's joyful.
00:39:23
Speaker
It's way better than home.
00:39:25
Speaker
I want to go there.
00:39:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:27
Speaker
Right.
00:39:27
Speaker
That's our job, I think, as people who lead companies, is to make it such that people simply can't imagine working in any other way.
00:39:36
Speaker
I really could talk about this for hours.
00:39:38
Speaker
May I say one more thing?
00:39:40
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:39:41
Speaker
All of us sort of intuitively know that our time is valuable.
00:39:47
Speaker
And I have for many years thought that the most valuable thing we have in this life is time.
00:39:52
Speaker
But I'm beginning to realize I might be wrong.
00:39:56
Speaker
I think the most valuable thing we have, the most precious thing,
00:40:01
Speaker
is the expression of our own creativity and individuality in a way that can impact others.
00:40:09
Speaker
If we spend a lot of time and don't get that done, then the time is irrelevant.
00:40:16
Speaker
But a little amount of time
00:40:19
Speaker
I think about Steve Jobs, right?
00:40:21
Speaker
I mean, if Steve Jobs had been on the earth a hundred years longer, how would it have been?
00:40:24
Speaker
I don't know.
00:40:25
Speaker
But for the amount of time he was, he had real impact.
00:40:29
Speaker
Changed the world.
00:40:30
Speaker
He really did.
00:40:31
Speaker
And so you need to place yourself in an environment where you can really express the very best of your own individuality and creativity.
00:40:40
Speaker
And that usually is drawn out of you through your interactions with others.
00:40:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:40:48
Speaker
I'm geeking out.
00:40:48
Speaker
This is so great.
00:40:49
Speaker
But we do need to wrap up, which is so unfortunate.
00:40:51
Speaker
I think we need to have you back.
00:40:52
Speaker
But we always ask someone at the end of the podcast, we ask them one question.
00:40:57
Speaker
And that is, what is an effective practice that you've implemented in your work or personal life that has had a great impact on your success?
00:41:06
Speaker
When I was 14, I put a tape in my bedside alarm clock that had a 15-minute
00:41:17
Speaker
speech on attitude by Earl Nightingale.
00:41:21
Speaker
You can believe.
00:41:22
Speaker
I have no idea.
00:41:23
Speaker
I know.
00:41:24
Speaker
I was like, Earl, yeah, Earl.
00:41:26
Speaker
Old kind of guru on attitude.
00:41:30
Speaker
And I listened to this thing over and over.
00:41:33
Speaker
And some days you have to put on an attitude that isn't natural.
00:41:40
Speaker
And you have to bring yourself out of a funk and
00:41:44
Speaker
And other days, it's just, you're just popping and you're feeling great.
00:41:48
Speaker
And I think it's, you've got to be very conscious about the energy that you bring into every situation.
00:41:55
Speaker
I would say that is the thing that has maybe been unique to my success is that I am very aware of
00:42:05
Speaker
what kind of energy I want to deliberately bring into something.
00:42:08
Speaker
Sometimes I don't do it perfectly.
00:42:10
Speaker
I'm by no means like the expert.
00:42:13
Speaker
But I really genuinely care about bringing the right attitude to what I'm doing.
00:42:21
Speaker
But I started that at 14 years old.
00:42:23
Speaker
things.
00:42:23
Speaker
And Kurt, I'm sure you've noticed Arian's amazing attitude.
00:42:26
Speaker
That's probably why you invested.
00:42:28
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:29
Speaker
Your career teaches you a lot as you go.
00:42:32
Speaker
I like just for fun sometimes to sort of create binaries, right?
00:42:37
Speaker
And one of the binaries that...
00:42:40
Speaker
I think as a general truism is that people generally fall into one of two categories.
00:42:44
Speaker
They're either energy givers or they're energy takers.
00:42:48
Speaker
And one of the things I have decided in my life is I want to surround myself only with energy givers.
00:42:56
Speaker
You can't always do that because you don't always have control of
00:43:00
Speaker
of everyone that works and lives around you.
00:43:02
Speaker
But Arian, in some ways, what he's describing is a habit that turns him into a consistent energy giver.
00:43:11
Speaker
People crave that.
00:43:13
Speaker
They want to be around people like that.
00:43:15
Speaker
Yeah, definitely.
00:43:17
Speaker
I really love this conversation.
00:43:18
Speaker
I'm personally fascinated by so much of it.
00:43:21
Speaker
Thank you, Arian and Kurt, for being here on the show today.
00:43:23
Speaker
Cheers.
00:43:24
Speaker
Thank you, Karen.
00:43:25
Speaker
And of course, thank you for listening as we dive deep into what it takes to create a perfect pitch.
00:43:31
Speaker
If you want to learn more about our investor, Kurt Roberts from Kickstart or our founder, Arian Lewis at Kiln, we'll have a link to the company and a longer bio in our show notes at kickstartfund.com.
00:43:41
Speaker
You can listen to more episodes of Perfect Pitch wherever you listen to your podcast.
00:43:44
Speaker
And if you like what you're learning, leave us a review or rating.
00:43:47
Speaker
We'll be back next time with more insights from entrepreneurs and the investors who fund them.
00:43:51
Speaker
So be sure to subscribe so you don't miss a thing.