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Tumblereads 31: The Darkness of Dark Academia
75 Plays2 days ago
Apparently Holly is new here, because she was surprised when the teachers started murdering the students.
Full show notes (inluding recs!) at smutreport.com/podcast
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Group Dynamics
00:00:03
Speaker
Hi everybody, welcome to the Smut Report podcast and we are tumble reading today. i'm Holly. i'm Ingrid. And I'm Erin. And together we are the Smut Report and have been the Smut Report together now for like a lot of years.
00:00:21
Speaker
It's kind of weird. I know. So weird. Yeah. I don't know how we have this magic sauce. I know. i know. Who knew? right i mean, Ingrid knew. It was Ingrid's idea. All of our good ideas are Ingrid's ideas. Erin and I just execute them. I think that's the magic sauce, though, yeah, is that I am the queen of ideas. And then I'm like, who wants to make it happen? and apparently have Apparently, having two older sisters in the mix is the way to make that happen. so that is That is the way to make it happen.
Book Spotlight: 'An Education and Longing'
00:00:53
Speaker
um
00:00:54
Speaker
Okay, so I'm leading us today and I'm going to start with a little story. so over breakfast, I'm reading. As one does. It's the best way breakfast. Right. And I um am currently reading An Education and Longing by Charlotte Stein, which is ah her forthcoming book. It's coming out in July, i think, and I have an advanced copy of it.
00:01:22
Speaker
And it's, ah you know, it's like kind of classic Charlotte Stein. ah i This guy obviously hates me because I'm a weirdo.
00:01:33
Speaker
and But of course he's in love with her. and course. Of course. um And then there's some like ah pining and angst and really, really uncomfortable banter.
00:01:46
Speaker
Ooh. Right? Because that's just like what her books are. That's her thing, yeah. And except it's dark academia. It's set in a magic school. Oh, and yeah, I'm like, oh, okay. I can, I can get down with this. I feel like this like angst pining, but, a and she's written a couple of college books that I've read that are like pretty good. And I was like, okay, cool. So it's like your college books, except with magic and great. And I'm reading it.
00:02:15
Speaker
And then there's pop quiz from hell happens. Yeah. So, you know, the main character, she's in her her first class of magic college. And the teacher's like, all right, pop quiz. are the Do you know your magical creatures? So I'm going to call your name and tell you a magical creature. And you have to tell me if it's real or not. Okay.
00:02:41
Speaker
And if you get it right, that's great. And if you get it wrong, you're going die. Because if you think it's not real, and it is, it's going to pop out of the void and eat you. And if you think it is real, and it's not, then the void is just going to eat you.
00:02:58
Speaker
Oh my god. Right? And I'm like, what? What is happening? Oh
Impact of Dark Settings in Romance
00:03:03
Speaker
my god! And then, you know, the first guy ah gets called on and like everybody in class thinks it's a joke and then the first kid gets called on and gets eaten by a werewolf. Oh my god. Okay, so...
00:03:15
Speaker
um So that that that was my breakfast. Sorry, my dog is barking at probably a dog in the neighborhood. He wants participate. He wants to participate. um So this is what is spawning my discussion question for you guys about...
00:03:34
Speaker
What we think the impact of these like super dark, ah forked up settings or situations have when they're put in romance books. Because I know that you guys have read books like- Oh, holly. Maybe not with pop quizzes from hell, but like I know there's lots of romanticy where they're like fighting to the death or ah whatever. and uh lots of dystopian omega verse that aaron's read um right so like what what is the impact of this kind of dynamic on romance books and seeing like maybe talking about the trends in in this kind of thing and yeah that i'm i'm gonna start there and kind of throw it out and see where see where we go So can I bet Ingrid could probably tackle this at length from a literary standpoint. But my initial thought, let's throw it at the wall and see how Ingrid picks it apart afterward, is it's either something that gives you automatic tension and raises the stakes for your setting or it loses you as a reader. Right? Yeah.
00:04:42
Speaker
Like, if you're just like, what? Why even would you put yourself in a situation like this? Like, that loses me as a reader. And I know I'm not everybody, but I i think that's a risk that authors take when they make bold choices, right? Is they're going to get the buy-in or they're
Romanticy Genre Expectations
00:05:02
Speaker
not. Yeah.
00:05:03
Speaker
But if it is something where buy-in comes, then it's like, oh my gosh, this is a very serious situation. What is going to happen now? Right? like Yeah.
00:05:14
Speaker
I mean, so as someone who's been like mainlining romanticity books for two years now, um I don't know if I've ever told you about the time that I substituted. And this girl, this first grade girl came in and looked at me. and I thought I looked really nice that day. And she said...
00:05:31
Speaker
Is you got a baby in your belly? And I was like, I do not. And she goes, oh, okay. And then she goes, are you wearing makeup? And I said, I am And she said, is it your first time? And I said, no, it is not. And I feel like I don't really know how to approach this conversation because I, Holly started talking and I was like, I don't see the problem.
00:05:54
Speaker
So I'm sitting here like, is it, is it your first time reading a romanticy in an academy where the teachers are not protecting students and are in fact putting them in situations where they could actively die? Because this happens all the time. so Right. Well, no, I guess. Okay. So like I have, so I'm thinking of like, I've read the Scholomance books. Right. By Naomi Novik, where, um you know, it's a dark academy and the school is trying to kill the kids.
00:06:21
Speaker
Right. And there are no teachers to protect them. See, yeah, I think- Right? but But the difference is, i think this is maybe where I want to tease it apart. So yeah the difference is in the Scholomance books, the point is of the story is how do we survive school and build school community? And the point of the story is the fantasy school. And there is a romance, but it's not the central guiding force. Whereas in the Charlotte Stein book, the central guiding force is her relationship with this guy, her enemy, who she thinks hates her. um Of course, yeah. And the, well, okay, may maybe I'm misrepresenting the book because I'm only five chapters in, but like the world building of the school is just kind of a backdrop. It's not, like the point of the story isn't she's going to overthrow the school.
00:07:22
Speaker
The point of the story is she's going find true love. Whereas in the Scolamance books, the point of the story is how do I overthrow this unjust system? yeah I'm going to out on a limb here. Let me just, I'm just going to go out on a limb here since you're five chapters in. And I'm going say this, this is my prediction. And you can tell me if it ends out up being true of the purpose of that scene. Right. So yeah my prediction is this.
00:07:44
Speaker
The purpose of that scene was probably to give the reader an indication that there are high stakes here,
High Stakes in Fantasy Settings
00:07:50
Speaker
that yeah like her life is going to be at risk and there are high stakes here. And at this point in the book, you're supposed to be thinking like, oh, great. She's got this enemy who hates her guts and she's trying to survive this school. That's crazy. How she going to do that? My prediction is, is that the pivot is going to happen when the next dangerous school situation happens and he steps in to protect her inexplicably.
00:08:11
Speaker
Do you see what I'm saying? It's one of those things where like, then then you're going to be bewildered, right? Like, well, she's going to be sitting there like I thought he hated me. He hates me. Why is he doing this? What's his motive? You know, like, there's a bunch of different ways you can spin it, but the point is that it's a setup for trying to explain his, like, trying to bring up explaining his behavior later. Do you know what i mean? Right. But I, okay.
00:08:32
Speaker
But is Holly. Okay. Here's where I'm because sure. Yeah. Ingrid. But like, there's a, maybe this is, I'm, this is, am am I interpreting you correctly, Holly or not? This is like massively high stakes. Yeah. Like insanely high stakes. Like it it in fourth wing where they're going to dragon rider camp, like they're trying to weed out people who can't hack it.
00:08:57
Speaker
Right. Like that's the point. So in order to get past the gauntlet in the first place or whatever the heck that thing is called at the beginning, like the, Oh, it was the thing that didn't make sense because it's something that sticks of the building. was like, go what? Yeah. We were all like, what? Yeah.
00:09:12
Speaker
oh Right. So it's you have to get through that and then you you've passed the first hurdle because you can hack it. Right. At least that far. ah But if it's so like this is it.
00:09:26
Speaker
sort of comedy romanticy that I read. um And the main character isn't actually a student. He's the professor. But in grave situation, he is aware that his he's young and he's like, the students never take me seriously. So he starts the class with, you listen to me or there's going to be consequences. And then there's always one kid who snot's back so he's like if you don't listen i'm gonna dangle you over that crevice over there crevasse over there and i might lose hold of you we'll find out and of course the kid sasses back and then the professor like picks him up And the reason that he's dead set on scaring the kids into respecting him is because he knows how dangerous their unwieldy magic is. And he is determined, unlike other previous professors, never to let one of his students die. okay So he scares them in the first. Right. So that's a different take. But it's like you're in school.
00:10:25
Speaker
So I'm wondering, Holly, like, where are we? Is she there voluntarily or is she forced to
Popularity of Dystopian Themes
00:10:30
Speaker
be there? Like in the grave situation option, they're forced to be there because anybody with magical talent has to have at least one year of training and pass that year of training in order to go back and be safe in society. Right. In fourth wing, you know, it's voluntary to a degree. Right.
00:10:44
Speaker
Right. But it's yeah. But so if it's involuntary, then why? There has to be a reason. And when you think about school in particular, it's supposed to be a place of learning. So what's the lesson to this? Somebody dies if they get it wrong.
00:11:04
Speaker
right Like, why is this the first day course as opposed to school as an opportunity for a place to learn? I think that's where for me, the Holly's description is coming at it from such a dramatic standpoint. I'd be like, that's why I'd probably land on the why are you even doing this side of things as opposed to an oh my God, that's so exciting. What's going to happen? And then, you know, buying in and getting to the point that Ingrid, you're describing where something terrible is going to happen and they work together.
00:11:31
Speaker
I'm not saying that it's done effectively because usually at this point in the book, we I haven't read it. I don't know. What I'm saying is that normally at this point in the book, you'd understand why, like you said, there are stakes. Again, is are they there against their will? Who knows? Is it also that maybe you like went into it because Charlotte Stein, I don't think her backlist tends to read that way. Was it a huge surprise writing style wise? Because I'm looking at my list of romanticy books here and I'm counting and it's like, i' ah I think I'm up to like, eight that all have the exact same type of stakes at some point whether or not it's forced or unforced right you know what i mean but like that's that's kind of the point so i i'm sitting here like it is whether it's done well or not it's technically a very common like yeah approach well and so i think so like that's what i wanted to get at ingrid is the that's the point right and this was my example just because it happened this morning and i was shocked and i think it's mainly not because the setup isn't there because it has already been established that this is a dangerous place and like why she wants to be there um but that scene was so shocking to me i think because i it's like different from what i was expecting from charlotte stein in particular but um ingrid what you just said is like Basically, like this is a feature, not a bug of these kinds of books. And what I really want to dig into is what does this feature and why do people want it so much right now?
00:13:06
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, i think this this isn't an... I think that if you actually looked back, especially in sci-fi, but all in all kinds of um for older genres, there this isn't the first time there's been high stakes learning environments settings right yeah for sure I think that yeah and I think that one of the reasons I think I said this in one of my previous posts that and I don't remember if I was specific about it being academy or not but um I think that there's something that's like deeply satisfying for readers about watching a character especially a heroine like fight for a goal
00:13:45
Speaker
And have the stakes be high. Yeah. Like, and usually, usually now look like again, there's a lot of variety here, but usually there's a clear Achilles, right? She's really small.
00:13:57
Speaker
She's from, you know, the slums. She has undesirable, you know, like there's something that there's an an obvious Achilles. That's hampering her ah her chances, right, at reaching this goal. So she's, one, at this academy that's already, like, life or death, or there are situations that are coming up that will be life or death. Also, she's got this Achilles. Also, she's got, you know, enemies, and she's having to create a found family just to survive. That's usually part of it as well, right? So um I think that it – I think that readers – I think readers like to watch somebody who is an underdog and who is –
00:14:32
Speaker
seemingly trapped in a really dangerous situation and watch them fight their way out of it because i mean everybody has had times where they have felt like they had no choice but to fight and keep going you know what i mean like you have to keep going and it doesn't matter that a void is there's no void that's going to eat me if you know i don't figure out this problem with you know my bank or i don't know what the problem is but you know you get what i'm saying like that's not going to happen. But sometimes it feels that way. and i think it feels good to like, okay, take this feeling that I am avoiding and I want you to like make it so high stakes, unhinge it, make it crazy.
00:15:15
Speaker
And then I want, it's the same thing with like, if you, it's, you want the resolution, the more unhinged the drama, the more satisfying the resolution, right? If it's just about the romance between her and the enemies to lovers situation, you're Sure, that would be great.
00:15:30
Speaker
But what if it's that and they have to bound together to get through this terrible academy that's trying to eat them? You know what I mean? It's it just raises the stakes and it's more satisfying when they emerge victorious.
00:15:42
Speaker
I don't know. I hear what you're saying, but I think this is more I think this is more about, yeah, like the author doing something very different. And maybe that um maybe they' that's why maybe that's why maybe they're because Charlotte Stein, correct to me if I'm wrong.
00:15:57
Speaker
Charlotte Stein already does tension really well, right? Yes. Right. So it sounds to me like she's really playing with tension because those types of situations, that's more tension.
00:16:08
Speaker
Right. Could be. Yeah, for sure. For sure. For sure. I guess, um I don't know. I feel like maybe, okay I'm trying to think of what I'm trying to get at here. Because I think part of what I wanted to like talk about with you guys wasn't just like, the tension building but like the the contrast of like the like almost horror-ness right of it with romance right and that's also why
Suspension of Disbelief in Romance Subgenres
00:16:38
Speaker
I was like kind of pointing to like some of the omega-verse stuff that I know Erin's read Right. That's not just it's a dangerous situation, but there's like like this deeply dystopian, like forced pregnancy stuff that is sometimes is also brought into romance. But like this tension of like it. OK, that's a different way. I'm using tension. Right.
00:16:59
Speaker
Yeah. Like how these ideas are pushing against each other where there's like it's not just that it's high stakes, but the way that it's presented is like really shocking and horrific. Right. So I think I have an example okay see if I understand you correctly. so because if I'm sitting here, like I said, and I'm like, is that your first time? Because like, this is normal to me. So I'm like, I don't understand. This is what all I've been reading for two years now. Right. But, but I took a break recently and I read some mafia romance. Mm hmm. And the whole time, i like, they do these shocking things. And I'm like, are you not concerned that you're going to get arrested for murdering someone in public? Like, i don't understand. So in the book, like, if you read mafia romance regularly, you'd probably be like, I don't get what your problem is. Like, this is normal. But me, I was like, oh, my God, he just shot someone in the middle of the street. Like, what the heck? You're just fine?
00:17:47
Speaker
Like, how is this not going to come up later? do you know what I mean? Like, where are the police? Right. This house is this not on the news. You're telling me that nobody would have been like on, you know, next door being like, oh my gosh, I just saw someone, you know, like, come on. it It was to the point where it was so jarring for me that I was like taken aback.
00:18:03
Speaker
And I'm wondering if that's kind of what you're talking about where like it, it really, it threw me so much that it took me a while to be like, okay, I guess this is just the way this book is. But I couldn't, like I read, it didn't matter how many times I read these. I read a you know a whole chunk of them. And every single time I was like, but you just, but you just. You're breaking the law Like really you're not worried about this person Going to jail you're just like So this is the happening ever after You're like is a step too far Pterodactyls coming in and eating kids Oh yeah I'm totally fine with the horror of that But yeah like That makes complete sense to me. Yeah. But the my ability to believe that they're going to have a happily ever after with like the police and the FBI breathing down their necks was just like one step too far for me. And I was like, I'm having so much trouble understanding like why, like if you're going to do the mafia ones, why do you push it that far in these scenes? You know what i mean? But it's because it's mafia. So, you know.
00:18:59
Speaker
And I, I, I still, there are some of them where i'm like, well, that was, I can, I can willingly suspend my disbelief in some of them. And I'm like, okay, there there's an explanation there. I get it. It makes sense. But there were a couple where something would happen and I'd be like, how, how am I supposed to just like, you know, continue skipping along as a reader at this point?
Fantasy as Escapism and Reflection
00:19:16
Speaker
Like you just, you just threw like a a huge bomb sometimes literally in the plot. You know what I mean? And it was so jarring. So I'm wondering if it's something like that. Hmm. okay so my under so yeah i think the willing to suspension of disbelief is an acceptance thing which is kind of what i would say to right like you ingrid you're like oh romanticy obviously like and that is part of your willing suspension of disbelief and for me not being a romanticy reader ah and not necessari necessarily but you know for me it's like Sounds weird. I'll read it.
00:19:51
Speaker
um My willing suspension of disbelief is different. So I need certain key things to happen before I get buy-in, I guess. Or i mean, I will say, though, it's some mafia books I've read. I'm like, also, really? But I probably read a lot more than you. Probably, yeah. It's micro stuff, too. Yeah, exactly. Where you're just like, well, OK, this is my removal from reality. So I feel like we've talked about recently recently different ways in which we want our books to be farther removed from reality than we sometimes read and maybe it wasn't in a discussion maybe it was in reviews or whatever that I read was like no this is too close to reality i want escapism in my books like quit it and so I'm thinking as you guys are talking And especially, Holly, as you're kind of trying to dig into what is the popularity of this coming from?
00:20:47
Speaker
ah Well, like if we we're going for fantasy, like removal from reality, that gives us our fantasy setting. Right. I want to escape. I want escapism. Fantasy setting. Step one. But also ah dystopian fiction tends to be more popular in times of ah political upheaval. I guess, shall we say, right? Like, yeah so I'm sure that is playing in, you know, right now. And i mean for mysterious reasons. i scratch it I guess we'll go with it. I'll willingly suspend my disbelief there too. Exactly. know why. So it's like tackling ideas that readers want tackled in life, but in a fantasy setting that is removed from the realities yeah of realistic action. Right. like if if Yes, the underdog can still, which of course the underdog is always the preferred character in like everything for all of time. Right. Right.
Predicting Narrative Themes
00:21:50
Speaker
then, well, the underdog can still be the underdog, but with magic, you know, and that's fun, you know, so it's just enough sprinkled in. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. No, it's just that's that's it enough sprinkled in to like give you your fantasy and your removal from reality, but enough real um thought engagement to tackle, you know, people's feelings. And then Bob's your uncle. Well, and here's my question, Holly, when this happened, was the character in question and the students in the class was the reaction like kind of shock and and how could the school do this or was it like we were prepared for this type of thing we knew this was coming and we're all so it sounds like there was like they didn't think it was real right no it was it was shock um and ah I mean when the teacher first said this the class laughs because they think it's a joke But for context, when you first arrive at the school, the first thing you have to do is enter, it's it's like, it's, they call it the brawl, and you enter a maze that's full of magic stuff. And um how far you get in the maze, if you're still alive at the end of the allotted time determines what ah level class you are put into.
00:23:07
Speaker
hmm. and so they know it's dangerous, but the heroine is thinking when this starts happening, she's like, the, the maze, there was still this like, i I, she's like, I still had this idea in the back of my head that the teachers were watching and would intervene if things were getting too rough. Right.
00:23:27
Speaker
And now I know that the teachers are not on my side either. Okay. like So here I'm going to lay out my little prediction here and that's this. So yeah, I think that i think that the plot is going to – I think that the plot arc is not just going to involve the enemies to lovers thing. I think it's also going to be – um like speaking, you know, was like pushing back against unjust power. It's going to be about like, you know, students um rebelling against institutions that are harmful and unfair. You know what I mean? It's going to be like that, which ties into what Aaron's saying, you know, like in these times, it's we like to read books that show, you know, characters successfully navigating you know the dismantling of things that we think are unjust or unfair so i think i predict it's going to be something like that um i'm thinking of i wish i could remember which what the book was called so i mean some of the books that i've read that got kind of have that vibe are um i'm trying to think of this one specifically where she wakes up and she's been kind of launched into this fantasy world from a different realm and and she ends up going to this academy
00:24:34
Speaker
And it's involves dragons and stuff, but it's very like, you know, people dying and blah, blah, blah. And it's your one shot to escape, you know, the risk, the, if you're born in an, you know, undesirable level of society, it's like your one chance to like, speed up you know? Yeah. And so there's that. um And I think that It does have kind of a more similar vibe where there's an expectation that there are like some boundaries that won't be crossed or that you can trust teachers to protect you. And then there's you. The part of the realization is that you can't that you can't trust anyone except for the people that you have in your found family or whatever. So that's kind of my I'm curious to see if that's going to play out for you for this. And I'm shocked this is Charlotte Stein. This is very interesting. I think maybe that's the biggest thing is because every book that I've read by her has basically had no plot, right?
00:25:27
Speaker
i mean, like a little plot, but her books are super character driven. driven Right. And so this is a hard crank into a different kind of tension, but she' she's so good at playing with tension that it kind of almost doesn't surprise me in a way. Yeah, well, I will report back. um I mean, because it's an arc, I'm planning on writing an in-depth review of it. Excellent. That's exciting. I'm going to let you guys
Closing and Listener Engagement
00:25:50
Speaker
know. yeah.
00:25:51
Speaker
yeah yeah well i do love it i do love it yeah i love it when authors try something and they're like and now for a completely different type of thing and they just lean like jump wholeheartedly into it it's my fate i love that yeah even if i'm like i don't like it but i'm like i think that it's good that you did that though you know yeah for sure it just keeps it fresh yeah all right well that's 30 minutes so i'm gonna just wrap us up abruptly you like all right thanks like we're keeping it fresh and done see see all right um you can find us on socials maybe smut report and if you would like show notes with links to the books we talked about including the one that ingrid can't remember the name of but she's gonna figure it out There's a bunch and I can, I'll put them all up there if you like this kind of thing. Okay.
00:26:41
Speaker
And we'll, we'll curate a list of ah super dark, dark academia, romanticy books for your reading pleasure that I will link to in the show notes and which can be found smart report.com slash podcast. Almost forgot the important part, which is the link. until next time. Keep it smutty folks. Smart report.