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Tumblereads 32: Cheat Codes
76 Plays5 days ago
We're back from our summer hiatus, which means more weekly discussions of romance books with the Smut Report Team!
Show notes at smutreport.com/podcast.
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Transcript
Introduction and Host Intentions
00:00:00
Speaker
na na na smart report hello and welcome to the smart report podcast this is tumble reads and uh we will see where we go with this week's tumble reads so i am aaron and i am hosting today i'm ingrid and i'm not hosting and i'm holly and my job is to derail as much as possible excellent Well, I am a little curious to see where we even end up here because I'm not sure how much or little conversation my idea is going to generate. But,
Transforming Niche Topics into Lengthy Conversations
00:00:33
Speaker
you know, Erin, I got to say, though, like we come up with topics that in in the beginning, we're like, well, that's really niche. And then...
00:00:43
Speaker
30 minutes later, we're like, well, we got to stop. We're out of time. But we could talk about this for two more hours. So. Okay.
Narrative Shortcuts in Romance Stories
00:00:49
Speaker
Fingers crossed. Fingers crossed. Okay. That's true. So I was thinking about way back. And I don't even think this was a recorded conversation. i think this was a typewritten conversation when Bridgerton first came out. And we were talking about we had the like what we expect. And then after we watched it, like how we felt about it. Yeah. Yeah. And ah during that conversation, Holly was, well, you guys were talking about the grand gesture, grand gesture at the end where Daphne and Simon are out in the rain, right? And Holly referred to the grand gesture as a cheat code for deeper conversation that would actually solve their problems.
00:01:30
Speaker
So I want to talk about cheat codes in romance or stand-ins that authors might use instead of a full-blown dialogue or a long time span resolution or whatever you can think of that might apply here. Because it might not even be problem-related cheat code, right? It might be something else. where readers who know understand the code to mean something.
00:02:01
Speaker
Okay. Got it. Okay. But we can also just talk about grand gestures and whether or not they are, in fact, a cheat code, if you would rather. Okay.
Symbols and Gestures in Narratives
00:02:09
Speaker
I think I have one. Can you... Oh, sorry. Holly, you go ahead. okay Go ahead. I think I have one, but can you tell me if I'm on the right track with what you mean, Erin? Okay.
00:02:16
Speaker
So one example that I'm thinking of is let's say that one character character has like scars right that represent some kind of trauma and the other character like kisses them and what it what it what it's meant to be is like i'm not scared i'm not intimidated or scared or thrown off by what you've been through not only do i see it i accept it but they don't have this whole emotional conversation about it you just know that them kissing the scars means i got you
00:02:47
Speaker
Yes. Yeah, that counts. Is that it? Yeah. I'm so proud of myself. I'm with it today. Yes. I mean, and I'm thinking, now this is not in romance books, but I'm going to throw this out there as a way to help us orient ourselves. But in the Keira Knightley Pride and Prejudice movie, the shot of his hand. The hand flex. The hand flex. Mm-hmm.
Debating Narrative Devices: Cheat Codes or Subtlety?
00:03:15
Speaker
That spawned a million memes. Oh, yes. um Like you see that and you know, and I feel like romance authors also use like refer to that sometimes in the same kind of way But it's ah it's a lot harder to articulate. yeah art articulate you know You need like a thousand words to articulate all the feeling that's in that one moment. It's a lot like i'm thinking hollywood one shot. Yeah. are you meaning like Are you meaning like in the movie it would be the hand flex, but I'm thinking about so many books that have this moment where they make eye contact and everything just freezes around them for a second. Is that what you mean? Right. Well, or... Yeah. um Or like in a book where, um you know, they touch and they feel the zing of electricity and but maybe it doesn't say they feel the zing of electricity. And then when they recoil, one of them kind of like shakes his hand and, you know, shakes their hand. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah.
00:04:13
Speaker
So it's like a physical representation of like that, that this was not like other moments with other people. Like this is something special. Yeah.
Portraying Relationship Development in Narratives
00:04:21
Speaker
Okay. just like what you mean I wonder what other ones we can come up with. Yeah. So that counts, Holly, I think. But it's very physical. Where do you think? Because they'll do that a lot. They'll be like, oh, authors will. Others will do stuff like, we made eye contact and the world dropped away. And is that more explicit than what I'm thinking of? I think that's a little more explicit. Or like, like the world dropped away or the zing of electricity, i think, is spelling it out.
00:04:51
Speaker
yeah whereas if it's say it's like a single pov story and it's like he took my hand and then as he was walking away i could see him shaking it at his side i think is kind of a cheat code for well for all the feelings for all the feelings that this opaque non-pov character is having in this moment Well, that's interesting then, because does that become... But maybe that's not a cheat code at all. Yeah, exactly. Is that a cheat code or is that just a subtle expression of opaque character? Because when you're talking about... Okay, when... So let me... The scene, the grand gesture at the end of Bridgerton the show Season one.
00:05:37
Speaker
Season one, yes, thank you. Is... Gosh, I don't even remember. It was like a thousand years ago. But they're... Simon and Daphne have been having problems because Simon tried to force a situation that Simon was... debt Oh my gosh, guys.
00:05:52
Speaker
Daphne tried to force a situation that Simon was not comfortable with. And ah instead of really digging in and talking through his trauma and why he felt the way he did and her you know... abject apologies for steamrolling him the it's it was kind of like an i see you moment in the rain right basically it was like right i see you you can trust me let's reboot kind of a situation yeah Right. Yeah. so and that the grand gesture is a way for the authors to imply all the conversations that one would need to have in real life, probably with a therapist present to actually work through all this stuff.
00:06:42
Speaker
Right. But then that would be like a whole book of having these conversations and that's boring. So we use the grand gesture as a cheat code for all this stuff that's unsaid, but to help the reader still feel okay with the relationship. Yeah. And I think we're at a point where like, does that work or does it not uh we can have a different well i guess we can have a conversation about grand gestures or not but i think ingrid that was ingrid's example was also good because that is frequently used where it is a it's it is a secret expression or of yes i understand that the the communication that's happening is i see your trauma and i accept you fully yes without having the conversation without having to have these multiple conversations about yes so that and i wouldn't have i don't think i would have thought of that one that's a good one i'm wondering if there are other so my thought initially was are there other cheat codes like these
00:07:35
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think... And it seems like we are distinguishing between, yes, a cheat code and a subtle indicator emotion. an indicator, yeah. The cheat code, really, I think the difference here is that in one of them... So in an indicator, it's more of like something... An indicator that something is building. In a cheat code, it is eliminating the conversation... It's eliminating the resolution, basically. The resolution...
Realism vs. Symbolic Shortcuts in Storytelling
00:08:03
Speaker
is getting symbolized instead of discussed.
00:08:06
Speaker
So would something like, well, it was a vacation romance. So instead of us talking about the most practical approach to one of us moving to the other one's location, i am just going to surprise you by being like, I'm moving here with that count.
00:08:24
Speaker
I'm thinking of yeah the first Moose Springs Alaska book where where she's like, I don't really have anything going for me. so I'll just move to Alaska. And then she's like, surprise, I'm moving to Alaska. you know i feel like in reality, that should be an involved conversation about pros and cons or same with Mangoes and Mistletoe by Adriana Herrera. I think one of them just like, it's like, well, I guess I'm moving to New York or wherever the other one lived. I was like, that always concerns me.
00:08:51
Speaker
one of us One of us is having construction done at their house and you fine listeners can can decide which one you think it is. How's that sound? It'll be a fun game. um Anyway, i one that I was thinking of, one of the ones that I was thinking of was a matter of like trust and acceptance, right? So like there's that push-pull, will they, won't they type thing, right? um do what Can I fully trust you? like Should we be together? and There isn't really a conversation that happens. Often I feel like it happens in the middle of a conflict, but they have withheld the full act of Hanketus-Panketus.
00:09:27
Speaker
And then one of them just says, don't stop. Do you get what I'm saying? And then after that, they're together. Okay, so you say what i'm saying when there's been a barrier, an emotional barrier fulfilling their love for each other physically.
00:09:46
Speaker
but But it's not even that. It's them being together at all. got it emotional barrier and yeah then instead of talking through the emotional barrier the author like they just like up the physical or they like do it without condoms and then it's and then as a symbol yes yeah they both just their understand yeah also being overcome exactly oh symbols that's what this is it's not cheat codes it's symbolism yeah i'm a little surprised aaron because i feel like you don't like this I don't like this. But you chose it.
00:10:21
Speaker
And here we are. Because I need to understand things. Mother of heavens. I just really can't wait for people to guess. Who's having construction?
00:10:32
Speaker
It's so loud. Okay. So, sorry, I got distracted. Okay, so Ingrid was talking about condomless sex.
00:10:43
Speaker
Well, it wasn't necessarily condomless, but yes, you get the idea. That's like how it shows up most frequently. and I feel... ah I don't know how I feel about that as a cheat code. Well, I mean, I guess all of these. Like, Aaron doesn't like grand gestures. I'm like, ooh, the condomless sex scene as, like, the symbol of- I don't like scar kissing, so there we go. We've all gotten our- I don't really like any- Yeah, honestly, I- Yeah, well, I feel like a lot of them presume a level of intimate understanding that is unrealistic. And that's, that's maybe a hallmark of romance where part of it is, we understand each other so perfectly that we don't have to communicate and I will always do the right thing. you know what I mean? Like, oh, yeah. you automatically know that i want to be spoken to this way when nobody else speaks to me this way or whatever. And I like, maybe it's just me because I am not always a great communicator. But there have been so many times where people are like, I, I don't like it when people draw attention to my scars. and so Yeah. yeah, the cheat code for the kissing of the scars to acknowledge an acceptance is on the one hand, like, sure. And on the other hand, just like possibly completely ignoring the other party's feelings about their physical appearance and how it is associated with their past trauma. And I've seen it i've seen it actually handled multiple ways.
Impact of Grand Gestures on Storytelling
00:12:19
Speaker
I've seen it where people are like, okay, so you know they're very blasé about it when they know that the other person doesn't want to talk about it. like So I've seen it handled both ways, but it's that that that person, the way it's indicated is that that person just automatically knows how this person wants this to be handled and handles it respectfully. The kissing thing specifically about, well, okay, listen, since we're on tumble reads and we can do what we want, I don't think a lot of authors really think about
00:12:42
Speaker
what scar tissue is because they're always like, Oh, and it, I felt her whisper soft kisses across my scars, dude, you have nerve damage.
00:12:54
Speaker
You can't feel anything. And what, sometimes it feels really freaking weird. Like it's weird. I don't know if anyone else had, I had major surgery on my neck and of now when I touch my neck, there's just slight nerve damage. I can feel it feels mostly pretty normal. But for like probably seven years, maybe longer than that, it doesn't, it didn't, it felt like phantoms. It didn't feel, it felt weird. Like it doesn't feel like that. It's wrong. It's incorrect, incorrectly written. Talk to somebody who has scars. It doesn't feel like that.
00:13:23
Speaker
It's wrong. So that's weird. I think it's weird. i just, it's not my favorite for multiple reasons, but that's my little nerd out about it is that you clearly have not talked to someone with actual scars because sometimes it feels really freaking weird. It doesn't feel like whispers of kisses. Sometimes you're like, are you touching me? Or I don't know. I can't. tall do you know what i mean anyway okay but that scars in particular what about the other cheat codes i already lost them in my head so the reason i don't like grand gestures is because i usually feel like they're stupid right where it's like i already had a whole thing about it you can read it well holly will link it i don't have to go into it again but it it it'll go magnanimous of you aaron Right. Thank you. It'll go a couple ways, which is typically some kind of public shenanigans or some maybe over not public potentially, but over the top something like I bought us a house like ah in the vacation situation even or some argument that they're having. It's like, well, I bought us a house. it's like, well, you should probably have talked about what you wanted in a house together. but
00:14:22
Speaker
So I feel like that kind of cheat code I don't like because not because I feel like they really need to have a boring conversation, but because it hasn't addressed the root of the problem fully. That's the point. That's the point of the cheat code, though. So that's that's what I think. That's right. Yeah. this is So I just don't like the cheat codes. What was the other one that we what was the other one? Did you the the um no condoms? Oh, yeah.
00:14:47
Speaker
Yeah, that also. I mean, there's multiple levels of that one, right? Because it's like, there's value judgments about what's going on with sex or what constitutes sex and vulnerability. And then on top of that, there's well in fairylands, they don't have condoms. So just saying. Sorry. Sorry. I know it plays out differently in Romanticy.
00:15:06
Speaker
It does. where they Where they all have like, you know, anti-reproductive spells that they cast on themselves. have you Have you partaken of the herbal tincture? and it's And it's the guy who takes it, not the girl, because that's Romanticy, because you can do whatever you want. Anyway, the point is, is Yeah.
00:15:22
Speaker
But so it's either that it's just something that you should have a conversation. Also, you should have a conversation about. And I feel like there are other cheat. Well, if cheat codes are shorthands, maybe instead cheat codes, we use shorthands where authors will say, oh, who did this? Was it KJ Charles had written a piece? We'll see if we can find I don't know if we can find it. It was just an old piece, but about the condom crinkle, right? I think it was KJ Charles because it was a Mills and Boone category romance type of thing where once condom use became prevalent and expected, they didn't want to have a whole conversation about wrapping it before you tap Where is it? Yeah. Like
Advocating for Brevity and Trusting the Reader
00:16:03
Speaker
the play by play of dressing the sausage. Yeah. but the ingrid is just covering her face this is great i love this conversation shorthand is ah to imply that the condom is going on but not to do the play-by-play was there is a crinkle of the wrapper right yeah and then things can move forward so there are plenty of those types of verbal summaries Yeah, it's that authors plug in as well so that you don't have to have, as Holly described, the whole boring conversation. I want to point out, I want i wanna to offer the counterpoint to this, though. Are you ready? okay And it's this.
00:16:44
Speaker
Sometimes these cheat codes save me such a hair pulling headache um because I am thinking of there are some authors who... just refuse to use cheat codes and in fact this is ah a new thing that makes me bananas crazy and it's this I like it when authors assume that I'm smart enough that they can put down some hints and we can skip this back and forth nonsense where I have to read every single thought and issue y'all have in your heads character wise I don't I don't need to know that. Like one of the things there, sometimes I feel like cheat codes are used to just give us a break from, because romance, romance novels are fun when you're watching people fall in love and get sexy, right? That's good. It elicits feelings when it slides too far in the other direction. It's like listening to a friend of yours who has had an on again, off again relationship with the same dude or what a dudette for like two years and you've had the play-by-play from their every interaction and then you after you get the play-by-play you have to talk about all their feelings and I'm just I'm so tired of it I don't want to go do some authors will literally have like her perspective his perspective and then her feelings about that perspective and then his feelings about that perspective and I would do anything anything for them to put in a dang cheat code just
00:18:01
Speaker
Just do a gesture and call it done. Like, I don't need to know. do you know what I mean? So
Effective Use of Narrative Tools
00:18:06
Speaker
I feel like that's the the flip side of this coin is sometimes cheat codes can make us crazy, right? Because we're like, you need to have ah an adult conversation about this. This is a stupid thing you're doing, right? The flip side of that is over explaining interactions because you think the reader's too stupid to figure out that this is clearly going to be fine and they're meant to be together. Call it done. Do you know what i mean?
00:18:28
Speaker
What do you think about that, my friends? Yeah. I think you're right. think as with, okay, here we are. Here we are again. It's a tool that needs to be used appropriately. I don't mean be right the time. I don't mean to be right all the time.
00:18:40
Speaker
If it makes you feel even better, it's the only area of my life in which I am ah right at this level of frequency. But yes, it's a tool. Yeah, I mean, I think I i as i i am on record. I hate Grant gestures. I think almost all of the time they are not well executed, but that doesn't mean never.
00:19:00
Speaker
Right. But like if it is appropriate for the situation, right for the characters and what they've been dealing with. Then, okay, I will say I really hate it when the bestie is like, what you need, my friend, to solve this relationship problem is a grand gesture. I'm like, nope, stop breaking the fourth You would not be the person I'd be taking advice from. Yeah.
00:19:23
Speaker
um but i think yeah chase after them in the airport yeah go go go now it's like buy a plane ticket so you can get in now there's like extra steps to that grand gesture do you know i mean yeah that grand gesture was a lot more effective more effective in the 90s yeah just saying authors you want to write a historical romance set in 1992 Make sure they're running through that airport, man. And then all the youngsters will be like, what?
00:19:54
Speaker
Where are the security checks? There weren't any. There were also, so there were also ashtrays in the arms of the um gate waiting rooms. um But I think like, Aaron, you bring up a really good point though. Cause like, I don't think that it's crazy that you don't like grand gestures. I think it's, there's a reason for that. I feel like that's one of those tools. It's more of a scalpel than a hammer. do you know what i mean? Like,
00:20:16
Speaker
It can work, but it has to be very specific circumstances. I'm thinking about, was mine the Adriana Herrera one where it was the... Is it... Was it Say... It's the one with Alzheimer's. Is it Say You Remember Me? What was that one? Oh, that Abby Jimenez. Abby Jimenez, yes. Yeah. Say You Remember Me. So there's a grand gesture in that one. And let me tell you, there were actually kind If you think about it, there were kind of multiple of them. But it makes... The way that it's done, it actually feels right. Because one of them is not the grand gesture. It's like a mini grand gesture where...
00:20:45
Speaker
They have their first date right before, like literally the day before she moves to California. He's in Minnesota. She's in California. And they're both kind of like, all right, well, I guess we can't be together. And then he's like, he, you know, gets in contact with her and is like, hey, i have ah I have a veterinary conference in your area. And she's like, oh okay, he didn't need to go to this veterinary conference. He just starts signing up for conferences in her area so that he has an excuse to go see her, right? So like, he flies all the way out there and is like, I would like to spend time with you.
00:21:15
Speaker
And she's like, did you just make up a reason to come see me? And he's like, maybe I did. And so there are these like moments where it's like, anytime you're flying to see someone you've spent four hours with, that's a bit of a grand gesture. You know what i mean? But it started, she's even like, you're crazy. And he's like, I know this is nuts. This is a really bad idea, but let's do it anyway. You know what I mean? And that book, for some reason, like the way that these are handled, there's enough skepticism where it's believable. Do you know what I mean?
00:21:43
Speaker
And I think that's the thing, like, Yeah, I don't think you're crazy, Erin. I think you've just hit on that there's a matter of trust when the author handles a situation like that. And you're just expected to just believe that this is like a great thing, you know? Like, yeah it feels better when the characters are at least a little skeptical or when it's obvious that it's a great idea. you know what i mean? but Yeah. The foundation has been laid. Yes. For the... Yeah.
00:22:08
Speaker
That's why it's hard. What were you to say, Holly? Oh, sorry. I was going to say, even with something like the scar kisses that we were talking about a lot, if if there had previously been a conversation about rejection of physicality by previous possible partners... or so You know what i mean? Some clues. Breadcrumbs, yeah. There are breadcrumbs. If there yes, then it. yeah My old fiance left me when I came home from the war with this defi disfiguring scar across my face. Right, exactly. Like classic historical romance setup. Absolutely.
Enhancing Storytelling with Narrative Shortcuts
00:22:39
Speaker
Yeah. yeah
00:22:40
Speaker
ah Such a classic. But yeah, I mean. Historical romance. So great. So good stuff I have to know, since we've been talking about this and since I brought up the flip side of it, I genuinely am curious if if you guys, because i I know what I think the answer is, but do you guys feel like you lean more on the side of I prefer um the cheat codes or I prefer the explanation? Because I know which one I fall on generally. Again, this is a tool, so it can be handled different ways, but I will find a natural skepticism or a natural annoyance with one versus the other. So i ah that's a really good question. And i i think by and large, especially if the most prevalent one is Grand Gestures, I fall on the side of not.
00:23:22
Speaker
But I'm thinking also of these books that I read by Chris Ripper, where they were almost too real. There was one about, it's like, book boyfriend or something i don't know i'll send it to holly she can link it but uh they had their fight and it was like we need a it was like a three-month break and it was two-thirds of the way through the book so it wasn't even you know like kind of at that last quarter mark and the whole like the whole rest of the book until the very last chapter was just like the narrator working on himself and i was like this kind of also sucks because like yeah it's like too much it needed the cheat code of not having the i also didn't appreciate how like the expectation of resolving in that conflict worked but you know ah the fact that it was that huge chunk of the book that was devoted to showing this time of the character working on himself i also did not like that it's like that's too real yeah uh or something and i don't like that
00:24:25
Speaker
ah So it is kind of this balancing act where it's not too much and not too little. it has to be Goldilocks. You have to choose Goldilocks. Yeah, just right. Just right. I feel like I guess i would have guessed, Erin, that you would have been a little bit more, you would have held felt a more natural irritation from the... Sheet codes. Sheet codes. Yeah, I do. 100%.
00:24:45
Speaker
Because I feel like you should, like I said, you need the breadcrumbs. Yeah. At least. Yeah. Holly, what about you? Which one do you think is your more natural? I'm team cheat code meaning Meaning the other stuff I i get.
00:24:57
Speaker
i have less patience for the other stuff. Stop explaining yourself. Stop explaining yourself. I am along for the ride and i can get behind this. i can get behind this. What you're doing, i can get behind it. Let's do it Yeah, I feel like... I don't need i don't need you to process for Don't treat me like I'm... Mine, my gut instinct with the explanation is you're treating me like I'm stupid.
00:25:20
Speaker
ah Like, but if you should pay work it you should be working... If if an author is feeling the inclination to explain everything, my take as a reader and someone who picks apart this these books, you know, and has for a long time, is you should have spent a lot more time with crafting... your book and a lot less time explaining yourself because if you're crafting it right you don't need to explain all of your decisions and all the feelings of your characters I can see it because you've made me feel it do you know what I mean if you've done a really good job I'm already so dialed into your characters that like it's Again, it's the hand flex, right? Like he doesn't have to stop and be like, that was so difficult just touching her. i i could feel the touch of her hand on my hand and I had to flex my hand because it was so overpowering. He doesn't have to say anything. Everybody knew exactly what he meant. you know what i mean?
00:26:13
Speaker
Okay, okay. But that's something different, I think. And now we're at time. But like, what you're describing... Okay. ah I get where you're coming from, because I think a lot of what comes out in the churn Well, we're back to indicators. We're back to indicators again. That was that. Well, but it's... A lot of what comes out in the churn is not spectacular literature ah sorry authors ah and so but it can be aaron but i'm thinking like the hand flex authors that i have like there are authors where i'm like yes like ali farin i'm always like you did the things and everything she is like the mariana zapata thing and cold where it's like oh yeah you like you gave me all the the sprinkles and I can feel even though I don't know what's going on on the other side of the narrative right and I don't necessarily think the cheat codes solve that problem no it's just I think they're just like a plug and play can look we solved the problem or look I've expressed the thing or whatever so that's and that might be nitpicky and I think it's all part of the same I don't know write smarter Well, and maybe, Erin, maybe, maybe this is what it is. Maybe this stuff, if we can summarize it, maybe this is part of it is that when it's done and this might be over so oversimplifying it, but maybe when it's done well, things that could be cheat codes feel like indicators. And when it's done poorly, they feel like cheat codes. Do you see what I'm saying? Maybe it's actually, maybe we're looking at the same thing. It's just that when they're handled well, they don't feel like cheat codes. Yeah.
00:27:46
Speaker
all right i feel Or when they're when they're made too big, maybe they feel more like cheat codes. And when they're broken down into smaller pieces, then they feel like indicators. Something for us all to stew about.
00:27:57
Speaker
In our free time or on the toilet. I highly encourage. It's good thinking time. Don't bring your phone in. Just think about writer's craft.
Conclusion and Contact Information
00:28:07
Speaker
And on that note, since apparently this one is going to have maybe a fair amount of show notes, they can be found at smartreport.com slash podcast. And you can look for us on various socials. Our handle is at smartreport everywhere we are. And until next time. Keep it smutty, folks.
00:28:27
Speaker
Na na na na smart report!