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Matt Watts and Mad Max: The Road Warrior
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In the latest episode of Re-Creative, Mark and Joe welcome back Matt Watts, in his second magnificent appearance on this podcast, to talk about one of his favourite movies, Mad Max: The Road Warrior.
Matt Watts appeared on Ken Finkleman’s The Newsroom and was the star and a writer on Michael, Tuesdays and Thursdays (Michael: Everyday), on CBC television.
Matt is also a comedian, radio writer, and actor. He created, wrote and starred in the CBC One radio dramas: Steve, The First, its sequel Steve, The Second and Canadia: 2056 and has written for Kids in the Hall. And he’s the author of the middle grade fiction novel Hope of the Wasteland, published by Donovan Street Press.
Re-Creative is a co-production of Donovan Street Press Inc. in association with MonkeyJoy Press.
Contact us at: contact@donovanstreetpress.com
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Transcript
What Skills Would You Bring to a Post-Apocalyptic World?
00:00:09
Speaker
Mark. Moet and Joe, how are you? i am I'm good, but holy cow. you just I came in hot because I know what the topic of the podcast is. Yeah, you are hard to trot tonight.
00:00:22
Speaker
i got I have a question for you. It's related to our topic. Okay. I thought this is a pretty good question. So post-apocalypto. What do you bring into the table? What skill set do you have that will allow you to be alive?
00:00:36
Speaker
I am working really hard on on martial arts. Non-martial skill. That's not going to help you. at don't think too much. You don't think it'll help against the mutants? No, no. You'll be dead. You'll be dead instantly.
00:00:47
Speaker
First of all, they'll have weapons. They'll have guns and stuff. Yeah. I can make a really great cornmeal pizza. Yeah, because we'll have all of the facilities to make it. Yeah, it's Don't Feel Badly. I don't have anything either.
00:01:03
Speaker
I mean, the only thing that I could think maybe might be useful is I could play guitar for people because they still might want to hear music. a I do have some lyrics memorized to some songs. Would that? Yeah, but yeah, not a reason to keep you alive, though.
Introduction to Matt Watts and His Work
00:01:20
Speaker
No, i haven't hoarded any toothpaste. or i know I know our guest has thought about this. Oh, for sure. You look so happy. yeah Matt Watts, welcome yet again to our podcast.
00:01:33
Speaker
yeah I actually have nothing to bring to the table either. if there was an apo i I assume that I would be one of the first to go. I'd be dead right away in in the apocalypse. i As much as I fantasize or have loved to fantasize about a post-apocalyptic wasteland, I know I'd be useless in it. Yeah, it'd be terrible. It would be awful. I would like i couldn't sleep the first night and I'd be a wreck the next day. that There'd be no coffee first thing in the morning? Awful.
00:02:00
Speaker
Can you imagine? The amount of supplements I need to take every day and like the amount of sleep I require and you know the comfort earplugs to sleep. like just just I'm too pampered. I couldn't it. And suddenly the gloss has become so much more important, right? It's like we can't let anything happen to our glosses. As Burgess Meredith showed us in the Twilight Zone. Yes. Yeah, exactly. a horrible tragedy. yeah But now, okay, so regular listeners to this podcast, are there any regular listeners to this podcast?
Matt Watts' Journey: From Acting to Writing
00:02:31
Speaker
If there are any regular listeners to this podcast, they would already know Matt Watts.
00:02:35
Speaker
So I'll just give the little introduction for those who don't know. So Matt is is famous in certain circles, I think, for his post-apocalyptic radio plays, Steve I and Steve II, and then Canadia 2056, which i there was some post-apocalyptic stuff in that. The best circles of anyone who knows those shows, I consider an important and great person. yeah Was there post-apocalyptic stuff? I think...
00:03:05
Speaker
I mean, no, no, it was dystopian, but it was all set in the future. They time traveled and stuff, but it was like too Didn't they come back to the planet Earth and have to clean it up at one point? Oh, yeah, that's right.
00:03:16
Speaker
Wow. you See, I know your work better than you do. Well, you were a story editor on it, so you remember it. Typical editor. It was my job. yeah It was literally my job. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So and Matt, of course, is also the author, a first time author of Hope of the Wasteland, one of our. Published by Donovan Street Press.
00:03:34
Speaker
Yes, yes. And only the finest people are familiar with Donovan Street Press. stable of Donovan Street Press authors on this podcast right now. Yes, Mark and Matt. We've all been published by Donovan Street Press, including you, yeah.
00:03:49
Speaker
Yeah. But anyway, you're also an actor. You were just ah before the podcast, we were talking about ah you having lived in Newfoundland. I just saw that movie just recently. Oh, for Grand Seduction. Yeah. Yeah.
00:04:00
Speaker
Where you were Frank. I was Frank. That's right. Yeah. You make a good Frank. I don't remember my kid. I was the buffoon, I think. no french you were the french In the French version, ah the actor who played that character was a ah french ah kind a famous French comedian, a buffoon. And so when I or played buffoons, not the actual actor. And when I was in Newfoundland, because there was a partially Montreal crew, they kept expecting me to be broad and wacky.
00:04:29
Speaker
i think And I was like, i don't know I don't know how to tell you this, guys, but I'm not going to be either of those things. So I think some of them were disappointed. You're your own Frank. You were the internet expert. That's a really niche. You're your own Frank. grand It's like five people get that. Yeah. And then just to round off, the yeah you've also done work with Kids in the Hall. You were in the newsroom with ah Ken Finkelman. And you had your own...
00:04:56
Speaker
ah television series, Michael Tuesdays and Thursdays. Yes. All of this stuff. I don't know i have to read any of this stuff. Like I just rattled this off. I know, you know, but you are reading it. I'm not. No, this is all.
00:05:08
Speaker
and No, you did a better job than I would. ah Well, and the funny thing is like, because I've now known you so long, I don't actually think about any of that stuff. Like when I'm talking to you, it's just, but like rattling it off now, I'm like, this Matt character is pretty cool. i done I've done some things. Not lately, but I have done some things. Yeah. yeah everything And we had an awesome time working together at CBC Radio. I know. That feels like a long time ago. But I wish you know it was more recently just because of the age thing, but also because it was so much fun.
00:05:41
Speaker
i i i wish I had done it recently just so I could remember it. uh recently that makes sense well it it was fun anyway so yeah two of my favorite people here on this podcast mark a rayner and matt watts i'm sorry i don't know what your middle initial is but it's gordon That's not the initial. That's the full name. You're Gord. God. It's my father. eighty eight It was my father's name. So yeah, I was named after him. i was Nice. Yeah, that's right. Is that?
00:06:08
Speaker
ah Yeah, I was named Matt. It was named after Matt Dillon from Gunsmoke. Gordon was named after my father. not Not a lot of
Exploring 'Hope of the Wasteland'
00:06:16
Speaker
originality there in my name. I don't know. I think that's pretty cool. Gunsmoke. I just barely escaped Mark Anthony.
00:06:24
Speaker
That would have been great. My mother had to put her foot down. Actually, I would have preferred Marcus Aurelius, to be honest. That would have been really good. That would been awesome. Wait, what does the A stand for? Andrew, which is a great grandfather, I think. But Aurelius would have been great.
00:06:39
Speaker
Matt, could I get you to describe your ah yeah the work that you have done for Donovan Street Press, Hope of the Wasteland. Could you tell everybody, remind everybody? Well, ah coincidentally, I was talking about it the last time I was on this podcast, because I had written, i can't remember how far along I was on it. I was writing it. And I was complaining about it and how difficult it was.
00:06:59
Speaker
And Mark, I remember you had talked about the ah joys of discovering what it was like to be a pantser. And I said, oh, I'm going to try that for my next book ah because I had carefully plotted this one out.
00:07:13
Speaker
It's about ah i don't remember how I described it at that point, but. Now, in its published form, since it's pretty final, I can actually talk about it in a way that won't change. It's about a young boy, 12 years old, whose father ah disappears where he goes off to get supplies ah in a post-apocalyptic wasteland. And the boy, having waited for two weeks for his father's return, goes out into the wasteland for the first time by himself to find him.
00:07:41
Speaker
And he's an anxious kid. And and and that's that's the gen that's the that's the synopsis, I guess. So um an anxious boy in a post-apocalyptic wasteland. Yeah. And it's a charming, he in a way, a sweet tale in in some respects, I think. Yeah.
00:07:59
Speaker
I wonder if when I was on it last, on the podcast last time I had talked about it being a satire of post-apocalyptic fiction, because that's how it started. And then I realized I wasn't a strong enough writer to pull it off. So I just wrote what it was satirizing, which is just a, you know, middle grade post-apocalyptic story. Well, I wouldn't, I wouldn't characterize you as not a
Thematic Links: Post-Apocalyptic Stories and Westerns
00:08:21
Speaker
strong enough writer to pull it off. You know what I mean. You know what I mean. Yeah. That was some heavy lifting I was trying to do. I get it. That's, yeah, that's, that's, that's a trick.
00:08:28
Speaker
yeah but yeah i like To write the thing and then be satirizing the thing you're writing right is a trick. yeah And then of course, Mark, is a has you've written several satirical. Your satirical work, well, I mean, like your radio plays were in a sense satirizing the post-apocalypse fiction, like A Boy and His Dog. Yes, right, which is yeah a huge inspiration for the film we're about to talk about.
00:08:53
Speaker
ah Nice segue. and how much do how how How much do we actually have to talk about the topic? Or we can just talk about... We don't have too much, really. Post-apocalyptic genre. It's just a starting point. the whole is that whole yeah But you got to tell everyone what it is because it's yeah it's such a great one.
00:09:11
Speaker
Yes, it is. I have chosen Mad Max 2, The Road Warrior, or just Mad Max 2, depending on where you live in the world, or The Road Warrior, depending on where you live in the world.
00:09:21
Speaker
I grew up knowing it as The Road Warrior. Yeah, that me too. i be too yeah me too yeah and then i Which is a great pick because I love that movie. I love that series. And perhaps we can touch on Fury Road, which is one of my favorite movies of all time since it's come out.
00:09:36
Speaker
I've seen Fury Road about four or five times and I love it every time because I just, but anyway, let's start with a Road Warrior. Is this heresy? But I prefer the Road Warrior to Fury Road. I love Fury Road, but again, I love the whole series. i yeah you know even Even the first one, which isn't is more dystopian than post-apocalyptic, but yeah I love the Road Warrior. I think it's I think it's one of the greatest movies ever made. It's just ah the story, the the action, the performances, the look of it. It's genre-defining, right? like it's it It created a genre or a sub-genre anyway. every Every post-apocalyptic movie since then is influenced by that movie.
00:10:20
Speaker
Yeah. And I agree. i mean, like,
Impact of 'Mad Max 2' on Film Genre
00:10:22
Speaker
I remember clearly seeing it in the theater in, in Summerside, probably the capital theater. And, uh, and I can't remember how old I was, but I was driving. I'd gone myself and my father's Chrysler Newport 77. And I was not a safe driver driving home after watching road warrior.
00:10:41
Speaker
I remember that clearly. It's a wonder i got home alive and didn't hurt anybody. Um, yeah When did the movie come out? Because i don't I don't think I saw it in the theater. I think i think it's 81 or 82. It might have been like fall of 81 and limited release in spring of 82. If only there was some means of... Yeah, if there was some kind of device we could check. I just thought you might know. 81. think sounds right.
00:11:09
Speaker
That's what I was gonna say, 81, yeah. yeah I didn't see it. i was I was just a baby then. I was i was six in 81, but i did i didn't I can't remember when I first saw it. I had this friend, his name coincidentally was Steve Martin. ah And yeah we we knew each other as little kids, but we also ended up in high school together. And I can't remember if i he showed it to me when we were little or...
00:11:30
Speaker
if we were in high school, but he was obsessed with it. He was obsessed with the trilogy. and And I quickly followed ah when I saw the Road Warrior, particularly, but specifically, i was obsessed forever, pretty much from that point on.
00:11:46
Speaker
it It was a long time after that, I think, until I saw the original Mad Max movie. And then, of course, Beyond Thunderdome came out and watched that, which was the the one that wasn't directed by George Miller. he co write he Technically, he directed it, but it's ah his the writer of the the novelization, i think, took over halfway through or something like that.
00:12:07
Speaker
Yeah. Of Thunderdome. This beyond Thunderdome. Yeah. Well, i think a close friend of George Miller's had, had passed away and he wasn't in the right mental frame of mind to direct it. You can see it. I actually saw Thunderdome in theaters a couple of months ago and it had been a long time since I watched it. And I, you could really tell tell the difference in some of the scenes.
00:12:29
Speaker
Yeah. there's the like most of the movie feels very light and fluffy and almost kind of like Disney-fied. yeah And then there's the chase sequence at the end that feels like George Miller again.
00:12:39
Speaker
And yeah, but Road Warrior. why else do you like, I mean, you obviously are very drawn to and partial to post-apocalyptic fiction. Did it begin with Road Warrior or is there another? Yeah, I Road Warrior was the first.
00:12:53
Speaker
And then i as I've gotten older, I've realized one of the things that I love the most about the genre is actually it's close to the Western ties. as i As I've discovered Western as a genre, which I found really dull as a kid, but now I love. I love the slowness of it. I love the kind of ah loneliness of it.
00:13:15
Speaker
um I think it's the the the things that the post-apocalyptic genre draws from Westerns is is actually what I'm attracted to. You know, and in Road Warrior specifically, it's, you know, you've got this anti-hero who's just trying to get from point A to point B, ah needs gas, and then stumbles upon this oil refinery and makes a deal to walk away with a ton of gasoline.
00:13:42
Speaker
And that's it. That's the story, you know. And in the process, obviously, he chooses to help ah the underdogs with their Raider problem.
00:13:54
Speaker
But, ah yeah, just the simplicity of it and and the the kind of slow burn of it that escalates into this massive chase scene. It's just exciting. Isn't that a little bit George Miller's genius is taking such a simple premise and then making such a meal out of it?
00:14:11
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, because I mean, like, you know, that's true of Fury Road, too. Yeah, because it's just like the chase one way and then a chase back. Fury Road, when I came out of the theater, my first thought was that was the movie he wished he could have made when he made the road. Yeah. Yes. I'm sure. But the Road Warrior still is pretty astonishing a movie.
00:14:31
Speaker
Yep. The time, I mean. I feel like the Road Warriors, it's got more adult stakes. Like I love Fury Road, but it feels a bit like a cartoon. Whereas Road Warrior, you know, when he's looking through the telescope and he sees that woman being assaulted and it's really upsetting and real. It is, yeah. The second one, Warrior is so grounded.
00:14:52
Speaker
Whereas Fury Road feels, yeah, so arch in a way. It feels like a fairy tale you're watching. A dream, yeah, in a way. yeah and you know And I was thinking about this.
00:15:04
Speaker
i can bounce this off you guys. I was thinking about this recently. the The two different kind of movies that i that I like can almost be categorized as, because I just watched Die Hard over Christmas. and Of course, it's Christmas movie. Mark's favorite Christmas movie. It is my favorite Christmas movie. Yeah. And I've always admired that director, John McTernan.
00:15:23
Speaker
But it's a very by-the-numbers, extremely well-made movie, but it's you wouldn't call it any kind of a dream or anything like that. it's kind of like It's over the top, but it's still kind of realistic over the top. And then you compare that to my all-time favorite movie,
00:15:40
Speaker
which is the good, the bad, and the ugly, which I, again, just saw recently. For some reason, thought you were going to say Avatar. I don't know why. give me Give me some credit. No, no. I do have a lot of respect for James Cameron, but and I wouldn't want to alienate him in case he ever wants to be in this podcast. But and No, the good, the bad, and the ugly. It's completely a dream. like it's you know It's the antithesis to to Die Hard. it's Because the scenes go on so long, and they're so over the top, and the music is so over the top. It's it's basically like you're in this Western dream.
00:16:17
Speaker
I never looked at it like that, but I can see it. I think I always attributed the dreamlike quality to those spaghetti westerns to do with the like the dubbing and the the sort of awe yeah I feel like when I was a kid, those movies were always on late at night when you were sort of half asleep anyway. And then they would always be squished to fit the TV. They never letterboxed it. Yeah, the aspect was never right. So that also added to the like yeah weird nature of the whole thing. But I think it's the sensibility. In movie that i haven't seen yet that I want to see, which I think falls in the same category, at least Roger Ebert described it as that, which kind of got me thinking in these terms, is Cat People with and Natasha Kinski. And he's like, this is a good movie. and Paul Schrader make that?
00:17:03
Speaker
It could well be. i think it's Mulchrader movie. I've never seen that movie. I've never seen it either. yeah I'm intimately familiar with the soundtrack because, um well, for I won't go into the reasons, but I love the soundtrack. It's like I listen to it all the time, the Cat People soundtrack with that David Bowie is the... what a weird factoid. I know. say Okay. So now we know that about you, Joe.
00:17:24
Speaker
Yeah. Your movies are diehard. Good, the bad, the ugly, and your favorite soundtrack, cat people. Cat people.
Influence of Western Films on Storytelling
00:17:30
Speaker
Although you've never seen the movie. Yes, that's right.
00:17:35
Speaker
How did you discover that? Okay, I'm going to go there. All right. No, I'm curious because, you know, as a kid, you'd see a movie and you'd love the movie and then you couldn't take the movie home. So you'd buy the novelization and get the soundtrack and then sort of put two and two together. But if you've never seen the movie, how yeah how do you discover that?
00:17:53
Speaker
I'm moved from, I'll try to make this as concise as possible. I moved from Prince Edward Island to Toronto to go to ah Ryerson, which is now Toronto Metropolitan University, to take radio and television arts. One of the projects that we had to do in first year was make a K-Tel commercial, which was, those of us of a certain age will remember, it's like taking a bunch of different songs and piecing them together in a way that works, like as a montage, and and then doing bla a basically a K-Tel commercial over it. That's a good assignment. just oh it's It's actually an excellent assignment. Yeah. Yeah. And we had to edit this all on tape. This was like before computers, right? So we're cutting this on tape. And I can't even remember what I chose, but there was a woman, a Czechoslovakian woman, probably from Prague. She's probably at least been to Prague. Yeah. And her name was, ah if I may mention her name, her name I still remember was Irina Fiala.
00:18:52
Speaker
And she was a little older than me. And she got me to help her with her KTL commercial. And the music that she chose was the soundtrack to this, to a Cat People. and And making helping her make that, I just came to love the music, which is Giorgio Moroder did the music. And yeah.
00:19:14
Speaker
And it's wonderful. And I've, you know, it's now on my Spotify playlist and comes up all the time. And we all have to watch this movie. It's now it's, yeah, it's now it's we have to do a group watch and then have a podcast about it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah That's crazy.
00:19:29
Speaker
I wanted to ask him that you said you're getting into Westerns. So what Westerns are are you watching? Oh my God. It's, uh, I recently, i just watched, uh, the Bud Baudetcher. Is that his name? Bud Baudetcher films he did with, uh, he did them with, uh, Randolph Scott. He made, uh, like the tall T Buchanan rides again, I think was another one.
00:19:51
Speaker
I'm sort of all over the place. Wow. These are like deep cut. There's a lot of Westerns. Yeah. It's like, it's, it's, there's a lot. Uh, the other thing, I mean, the, the movie I keep going back to is a real Bravo. I love real Bravo. Uh, that's John Ford is John Ford. Yeah. wayne Dean Martin is incredible in it. I've actually seen that one.
00:20:09
Speaker
Real Bravo. Yeah. I haven't seen a lot of Westerns, but I think I've seen that one. My dad loved Westerns, but I just never really enjoyed them. I've been watching Gunsmoke lot lately. I love Westerns. It's just the TV series. Oh my God. I didn't realize I love Westerns so much. And then the exciting thing about it is there's so much material. So it's discovering a whole genre. And it's not that there's mediocre stuff. I mean, there is mediocre stuff, but there's a lot of great stuff there too. Like the classics like The Searchers and Rio Bravo. Because wasn't that part of a trilogy, John Ford's trilogy? There was the Rio Bravo, the Searchers, and Ford Apache or something. Wait, no, Rio Bravo wasn't John Ford. That was Howard Hawks. It was a Howard Hawks movie. And then, Joe, I was texting you because I was reading Lonesome Dove for the first time.
00:21:01
Speaker
So that was, that's, I mean, it's not a film, obviously, but it's like, I thought it was, the that's the, that's the pinnacle. That's like. Well, it's a miniseries. It's a miniseries. I know. I saw it. I didn't like it very much. Yeah. Oh, interesting. thought that- Not as good as the book, but yeah. The book is incredible. and Love the book. What's his name who plays- Who are the two? Tommy Lee Jones. Tommy Lee Jones. And Robert Duvall. Robert Duvall. So Robert Duvall was not at all what I thought the character was well reading the book.
00:21:29
Speaker
And so I really i i really didn't like him in the role. that was That's my own personal opinion, which I realize ah many people do not share, but yeah. But yeah, so the ah back back to the post-apocalyptic thing, that's it's it's it's those key elements of of the genre that I think I love. Again, there's there's a lot about isolation. There's a lot about, ah there's ah there's the new frontier aspect to it. There's there's the like discovering small towns or villages of people that have art aren't
00:22:03
Speaker
aren't tied to the main hubs of society. ah it's it's just It's more of a contemplative exploring genre, I think, post-apocalyptic and Western. Do you like the idea of the lone hero? like the yeah i think lonely wanderer kind of appeals to you i think it appeals to me because it's very simple and you it's easy to sort of put yourself in that position and their uh wants are very simple too right it's like it's mostly it's survival or to be left alone or both and i i i think i like the simplicity of that and like max is is a very simple character and then you know in westerns the man with no name and and and theyre they're all there and they're mission movies too there's that element of like you establish the mission they go on the mission they either complete the mission or they fail the mission and that's that's the arc
00:22:54
Speaker
And I think it's from a writing perspective, I just appreciate the simplicity of it and and how much is done with such a simple premise. Like there's so much in The Searchers and it's literally just him trying to find the girl that was kidnapped. That's the whole story.
00:23:11
Speaker
And it's two and a half hours of just gripping entertainment. Kind of the MacGuffin, as they say. Right. Now, I remember when we were making Steve I and Steve the second were you partial to boy and his dog? Yes.
00:23:26
Speaker
Okay, yeah. So I love a boy and his dog, but not as much as the Road Warrior, which is why I picked the Road Warrior. And a boy and his dog came later, which whereas like to me, Road Warrior was like the the spark for me. and then And how old were you when you saw it?
00:23:42
Speaker
Road Warrior, probably like 12, maybe. Yeah, so that's going to imprint on you at that age. That's a very impressionable age to watch that movie. And I think Boy and His Dog I saw probably late on like City TV one night when I was much older, like in my teens, late teens.
00:23:56
Speaker
Does it hold up? Boy and His Dog? Yeah. The first half does. The second half down in the bunker with ah Jason Robards and all the sort of ah pale, they're they're all wearing like weird makeup. It gets a little tedious at that point. But I think the sort of roaming the wasteland, him in blood hunting for food or women, it's definitely not PC. Not PC. And ah the ending, I still think it's one of the greatest endings ever, but I don't know if that would fly today.
00:24:29
Speaker
Okay, now I have to ask you guys, because this is a subject that interests me. What are the greatest endings ever? In a movie? The Mist is the first thing that comes to my mind.
Memorable Movie Endings and Their Impact
00:24:41
Speaker
On the Beach. Oh, right well, that's also if you're talking post-apocalyptic. Well, yeah, that's yeah that's that's the anti-post-apocalyptic movie because that's the truth, right? Right. That happens. That's not that's it. It's all over. There's no fun. and Yeah, there's no fun. There's no adventure.
00:24:59
Speaker
So another one that i to to to to fold in the Hollywood thing, they're the Western thing, um Unforgiven. Oh, the and and and the end of Unforgiven is, you know.
00:25:10
Speaker
just the the You mean that the end scene with the where he he turns into Will Money in the bar? Yeah, and he shoots everybody. Yeah, that's great. and then yeah whats But what is great about that? It's not Wild Bill. it's it's what the name ah Gene Hackman's character is like... yeah I don't deserve this. and Little Bill. Little Bill, yeah. Little, I don't deserve this. And and that William Money is like, this surf's got nothing to do with it.
00:25:36
Speaker
Bam. To answer your question, Joe, I'd say it's it's more the, what's great about that ending is you spend the whole movie wondering how bad this guy could actually be. And it like makes you pregnant with yeah like anticipation. And then to see it finally happen. I mean, it's also a very anti-violent film. It is. yeah And then to have this sort of explosion ah of violence at the end, ah it's, it's like, it's a bittersweet, horrible ending, but also, you know.
00:26:06
Speaker
Yeah. i like Cause I remember, cause I saw that at the uptown on young street in Toronto. Remember it clearly. RIP. The greatest cinema in Toronto. Yeah. I also saw Blade Runner, the director's cut there, but, and I remember coming out of the theater feeling very strange about that movie because I'd enjoyed it. And then there was the ending, but there wasn't the usual catharsis that you get with the ending. Instead, it was you were left disturbed, which I think was the point. That's the point. Yeah. Clearly, I enjoy that. Yeah, I like feeling disturbed. Well, and The Mist and The Mist, actually, that's another one, yeah. And back to and His Dog, that's, you know, like, the ending is disturbing and upsetting, and I think it's, I think, based on when you were born, I think that it's just sort of the idea of a darker ending that isn't
00:26:58
Speaker
necessarily everything's tied up in a nice bow it sort of shows you that stories don't always have to go the way that you expect them to go and it's a surprise right like you feel they can make a point yeah yeah like you don't want a complete subversion of the ending just for the sake of it it's got to fit the story and the tone which is i think what these movies do like i think it was gene hackman's last movie wasn't it no actually gene hackman's last movie was welcome to moose port Oh, boy. That's a shot here in Toronto. and i Maybe everyone wishes that was his last movie. Yeah, maybe. But he won an Academy Award for it.
00:27:32
Speaker
He was really good. I mean, the whole cast was amazing. Rosemary's Baby has one of the greatest endings of all time. Oh, yeah. He has his father's eyes. And then the whole... Oh, and okay. I'll say it. The planet of the apes, the first movie. Oh yes. That's a pretty stellar ending.
00:27:48
Speaker
I mean, so to talk about apes, I mean, that's also a huge influence on me. Uh, maybe not so much in a book like hope, but it is a post-apocalyptic movie. Yes, it is. And the second one, especially when you go into the underground with the mutants and the, you know like that that That starts to ah devolve into more traditional post-apocalyptic bizarre stuff, right like the mutants that speak telepathically and they're worshipping the bomb in the old subway tunnels. That's a really weird movie.
00:28:20
Speaker
It's kind of great, though. It yeah. i think it's not it's not It's kind of dull, but it's also really inventive. yeah guess Yeah, yeah. And also the way it tells the story too.
00:28:30
Speaker
It feels like a Star Trek episode. It does. I need watch those again. Yeah. I recently started to watch the Planet of abes the Apes, the TV series. That's great. That show is so underappreciated.
00:28:42
Speaker
Yeah, I wasn't allowed to watch that when i was a kid. Is it David Naughton's brother? It's like James Naughton or something. And it's a classic... episodic like they're on the run so every time every yeah it's like littlest hobo incredible hulk like that that's sort of on the run episode to episode they're going to solve the problems of this little village as they run away from general urso or whatever kung fu yeah yeah kung fu yeah general urso it's mark leonard if i'm not mistaken This is a side thing, but yesterday I saw ah The Whole Bloody Affair in a theater, ah the Kill Bill thing.
00:29:18
Speaker
and Oh, oh okay okay. How long was it? Four and a half hours. Okay. yeah Five hours with like from walking in the door, finding my seat. Sure, yeah. Intermission.
00:29:30
Speaker
And whether it was, it went by so quickly, I have to say, I was dreading it. I was, I kept thinking, I'm not going to be able to sit for there for that long. It's like a flight to the West coast. Yeah. And it was amazing. I was never bored.
00:29:42
Speaker
Wow. And I'll never think of it ah as two movies again. It's so it really held up. Yeah, I really do. I really hope that comes to London. Well, I'm sure it'll get a physical release at some point. Yeah. Like it'll be out on Blue Air. My local Highland.
00:29:56
Speaker
It's so good. Speaking of long movies, I've just been getting into a bunch of long movies lately. I just watched David Lean's Lawrence of Arabia. Oh. Followed by Dr. Zhivago. Oh, that's my favorite movie.
00:30:09
Speaker
i Is that your favorite movie? That's my favorite movie. I did not know that the things were. I've seen i've seen that movie probably a dozen times. I'd never seen other than before. i got to watch it I've seen Lawrence Arabia, but when I was like in high school, yeah I've never seen Dr. Zhivago.
00:30:22
Speaker
Lawrence Arabia is very good. don't Don't get me wrong, but I just love Dr. Zhivago. Yeah. What's it about? It takes place during the Russian Revolution, and it's about a doctor and the two women that he falls in love with during the tumultuous period of the end of the war. and Is it based on a book? no Is it a Russian? Yeah, it's Pasternak, yeah, but based on a Russian novel.
00:30:48
Speaker
and And the music's beautiful, the acting's sublime. like It's just really well done. Yeah. And they frame it. it's It's framed so lovely. It's such a good lovely framing. It starts with Alec Guinness, who plays Dr. Chivago's brother. And it starts with him at this dam complex. And they're looking at all the young people you know coming out of the out of their work day. And he says, that's the one I want to talk to. And that's the daughter, he thinks, of Lara and Dr. Zhivago.
00:31:20
Speaker
And so he wants to interview her. And then the whole story is then, of course, him actually telling the story to her. it's just And then it ends with with the two of them again. then that's and you know, something I've noticed about movies like that, that there's often a secondary character that kind of carries the movie away.
00:31:39
Speaker
And in this movie, it was Rod Steiger. he's He's a very powerful character in that movie. Yeah, he is. He's a pivotal character. He is. and But the performance is like – It's a big performance. But I mean, yeah when has Rod Stogger never done – I mean, he always does a big performance. Yeah. He's big. Going back to The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly, you know for me, it's like Eli Wallach who just walks away with that movie. yeah you knowm Sure, it's a Clint Eastwood movie, but no, it's really an Eli Wallach movie. Anyway, ah i'm I'm just I'm like, OK, so these are two movies that are now at the top of my list to watch. Dr. Zhivago and Cat People.
00:32:15
Speaker
Yes. Cat People is also on my list. I've always wanted to see Cat People, but I've, I just never watched it. It just, I never saw it when it came out. I never, for whatever reason, never rented it. Maybe it wasn't available on DVD. when Oh, and here's like, okay, now where things are starting to link up because, so Cat People stars Natasha Kinski. And do you remember who's in um Dr. Zhivago?
00:32:38
Speaker
Klaus Kinski, her father. yeah. Klaus Kinski. Yeah. it's heing He's in the train. He's the yeah the forced laborer in the train. Oh, right.
00:32:51
Speaker
don't know who that is because I've never seen him. He's the anarchist. Sorry, now we're leaving that. That's right. Yeah, they have to take a train from – so Dr. Zhivago marries – Well, he marries his cousin. His cousin, essentially, yeah, but they're quite wealthy. And then, of course, the revolution is not going great for the wealthy people especially. And it's like, they got to get out of town.
00:33:15
Speaker
so it's It's actually kind of post-apocalyptic in a way. It actually is. very Well, it's it's it's definitely what happens when society breaks down. Yeah, because society and Russia has broken down. bulk of the movie takes place during the civil war between the Reds and the Whites.
00:33:30
Speaker
And so, like yeah, like life has broken down. like it's It's chaos. And they take this train across Russia to Verikino. uh which is where they hide out they try to hide out um it's a it's a real life it's a real life post-apocalyptic movie and because they wind up living in like a anyway where we're going down yeah well it was real rabbit hole yeah it really is great but of it's it's super depressing yeah it's like yeah as most russian it's like it's super super sad and romantic and depressing yeah yeah but okay so back to back to matt so you've written uh hope of the wasteland it's my understanding and we've talked about this that you're working on a sequel i am working on a sequel after i' i'm outlining a sequel i'm working on another book right now that i've been has been the bane of my existence for the last year and a half And I, I, I want to get it done at this point. It's just a, it's, it's, it's like pride.
00:34:27
Speaker
Um, and then, yeah, I'd like to write the sequel to hope when they're a little bit older and, uh, furthers the story. I mean, you've seen parts of the outline, so yeah, we discussed don't, don't all of our books at some point become the band of our existence. This one is like, it's really tough. Cause I remember talking to you guys about the process and you know, writing a first person, especially for middle grade felt simple to me. Cause it's like writing a very long monologue and incredibly long, long 300 page monologue.
00:34:56
Speaker
uh this book is third person and uh i'm struggling with it a bit and just finding the tone and it's an it's it's an adult it's not an adult it's a book for adults it's not an adult it's not yeah okay erotic you know it's all yeah yeah it's uh but it's you know it's a thriller horror ghost story essentially and uh i've gone back to the outline like a half a dozen times i've thrown out over a hundred thousand words Oh my God. Yeah. It's been a real uphill battle, but I'm, I gotta to get it done.
00:35:28
Speaker
I gotta, I just, it's, but I, I love the story.
Matt's Current and Future Writing Projects
00:35:32
Speaker
The first book, because it was partially influenced by my father's passing. And the second book was also similarly about my mother, this book, I mean the horror book. So it's like, there's a weird, there's a, it's like a personal connection. I just sort of feel like I got to get it done, but yeah, yeah to answer your question, I want to return to the hope. Yeah.
00:35:50
Speaker
but I mean, I feel like it'll it'll sell well if there's also three books. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's the yeah publishing. Oh, boy. Let's not go there. yes, middle grade is ah is a is a huge market to enter.
00:36:07
Speaker
um And I think that most kids that age want a series. if they like the characters. least a lot of the parents want a series for the kids. Yeah, yeah. I mean, when I was a kid, I read all kinds of series. I love series.
00:36:20
Speaker
Yeah, me too. I had the time to vote too. It's crazy. Five or six books. A friend know a friend's daughter ah red ho is like one of the first. i've got a She wrote a fan letter to the book. um And she consumes like a book a day.
00:36:36
Speaker
And she's such an avid, voracious reader. She's 10 or 11. I think she just turned 10. And I guess I was like that at the age too. And like you said, Mark, I guess it was about time as well. It was just like, that's, she has no devices either. She's not allowed to have a phone. So well that'll do it. Yeah. Yeah. I think she just sits and reads in her, all her spare time.
00:36:56
Speaker
I'm trying to get more like that, but, to or to return to that, but it's not easy. Yeah, I find it a challenge, yeah, because now my job is kind of reading and working on other people's books. and Yeah, you don't like you don't spend three, four hours on someone else's manuscript and go, ah, I'm going to return to this memoir I was reading. ah you You probably just want to not read anything.
00:37:21
Speaker
well Yeah, i have a problem. but yeah i mean like I'll squeeze in 15 or 20 minutes at the end of the day, which isn't good because I got to keep up the pace of it least reading 15 or 20 books a year.
00:37:34
Speaker
you know yeah because i mean If you're working on books and in the book industry, which I largely am now, you don't want to get out of touch with that industry. I do find that for for my own writing skills, that reading is literally when people say, what's the best thing to help your writing? It's just keep reading. Because I'll find if I'm reading a lot and i um I go back to the manuscript and I'm writing, I think, oh, I'm actually writing better. I can see the quality of my writing improve by the amount of reading I'm doing at the time. It's simple thing, but it's it's true. I have the opposite problem, I think. It's...
00:38:11
Speaker
ah I know what I want to write and I have trouble i have trouble reading fiction when I'm drafting fiction because I get influenced by what I'm reading. so if you start If you're reading like Kurt Vonnegut or something like that, i find it yeah I find myself mimicking that a little bit. That's okay for a first draft, isn't it?
00:38:32
Speaker
No, I don't think so. Not for me anyway. i don't like it I don't like it when I'm not writing in my own voice or the voice that I'm trying to write in for that piece. Yeah, I don't like that. So i' I'm fine with, i it's fine, I still read. i just fill my time with nonfiction when I'm drafting. That makes sense. I'm doing that unknowingly.
00:38:52
Speaker
but the Oh, I'm not accusing you of that. No, no, no. No, no, I'm just saying right now, that's what I'm reading is nonfiction. Yeah, that's what I do. I read a lot. I mean i feel like I need i need nonfiction to to feed my, I call it the idea hamster. He needs he needs something to run on, right? Um, and a lot of that comes from the ideas that I get from listening to nonfiction.
00:39:14
Speaker
The book I'm writing now, uh, there's, it takes place in a small town in Ontario. And, uh, there was a closed down silver mine, which is similar, similar to my family's history.
00:39:25
Speaker
And, uh, I was reading, I am reading this book, murdered Midas. I can't remember the title, but it's about, uh, it's, uh, they made a movie about this guy with Gene Hackman. He a he was a miner up in New Liskert and made a fortune and then was murdered in the Bahamas and they never solved the crime. But just reading the sort of first half of the book, which is a lot of story of like Cobalt and New Liskert, it actually, there were ideas and there was like oh, I'm going to put that in my book. because yeah so So I was borrowing heavily from from that. So I get it.
00:39:55
Speaker
I think that's what you're saying, right? Yeah, basically. Yeah. Yeah. Something that I've got a draft form at this point is have I've got a
Historical Events as Writing Inspiration
00:40:03
Speaker
short story in this collection that I've drafted, and it's it's like you can tell i was reading...
00:40:09
Speaker
a nonfiction book about the, the end of the, the, the bronze age civilization. So I read actually a couple of books about it. So I've got like a, a short story called dusk at Ugarit. And it's just totally inspired by listening or actually reading that book. that was when I read what civilization was like at that time. Yeah. What that, that specific little city, like the city civilization and what happened to them. And it's still kind of a mystery. Nobody actually has an actual answer for what happened to them.
00:40:39
Speaker
So, yeah, it's like it's amazing how that kind of stuff will just filter and your idea Hampshire runs with it. You've got to explain that. so whats what Tell us about this civilization. that So it's it's a civilization that they only discovered, I think, in like the mid-'70s.
00:40:55
Speaker
It's it's ah northern Syria, Africa. And they discovered just by accident, I think they were building a parking lot or something, and they discovered this wall. And then went that looks like something. And then they dug it out. And they it's this it's this whole civilization called the Ugarit civilization. I'm not going to get all the details of this right because it's been now two years since I read the book. But – it's fascinating to me that they could figure out so much just from the archaeology so they found you know just enough writing and it's just it's cuneiform that they're using not exactly the same as what they would have been using in babylon or the akkadians or whatever so like it's they they figured out just enough um to get a sense of you know here's how they fit into the world they were part of a trade network
00:41:45
Speaker
It's an interesting time period because it's it's ah it's probably the first semi-global civilization. And then the late warrants age. Yeah, because you know um the Greeks, Egypt, all the Middle Eastern countries were all you know civilizations.
00:42:04
Speaker
that But they were trading with one another and they were they they talked to one another and sometimes they even married one another. So it was like a kind of a global culture and it all ended. in the period of like 100 years.
00:42:17
Speaker
And they're still trying to figure out exactly what caused it. So doesn't that kind of sort of tie into our our theme of post-apocalyptic? Yeah, post-apocalyptic. Yeah, that's why raised it. Yeah, because and because it seems to me that um we always look at the post ah at a post-apocalyptic future thinking that you know that it's coming. It seems that humanity has already experienced innumerable post-apocalypse. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
00:42:44
Speaker
Yeah, I read Jared Diamond's collapse. I mean, yeah, it's happened a bunch of times before. And there may be one shortly. and Well, let's hope not.
Influence of The Beatles on Matt's Writing
00:42:51
Speaker
yeah that's really We've already outlined how um how badly we're going to do in that kind of situation.
00:42:56
Speaker
I mean, it is it is the one thing that sometimes I think about when I'm like, I am writing post-apocalyptic fiction that is starting to look alarmingly true. yeah Maybe this is a bad idea in terms of, hey, who wants to read this? Yeah. like Probably no one. ah should be right notopia my first My first novel, The Amadeus Net, it's it it's a post-apocalyptic story, but it's it's sort of a hopeful story in the sense that civilization doesn't end. But America has broken it up into pieces.
00:43:26
Speaker
Right. And like, you know, okay. Not that I was the first person to ever have that idea, but yeah. We should all write utopian fiction. Yeah, utopian fiction. Yeah. But I don't know if people want that. Now, I think that people still like, you know, the dark, they like exploring, okay, what are the possibilities? Like that movie, Civil War that came out, you know, was it Civil War? Yeah, Civil War. Yeah.
00:43:49
Speaker
Yeah. You know, like that was really kind of fascinating to watch because you're like, Okay, this is is this what we're looking at in the next, you know? have you really Have you read Stephen Norris? The Alex Garland movie? that That's the one with yeah with summons and Jesse Plemons and... um Yeah, yeah. They try to take back the White House at the end.
00:44:07
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. there was um It's depressing. Okay, so yeah <unk> as we wrap this up, there how do we know how do we bring this back to a more positive place? Well, yeah, we don't i want trying to figure out how the other, the other, the it's, it's a sub genre itself, but I read a lot of Beatles ah memoirs and, and, and like, I just basically any, I read a lot of I read like two to three Beatles books a year.
00:44:32
Speaker
And I'm trying to find a way to incorporate that into my writing. or Like the band? The Beatles? The Beatles, yeah, the band. Yeah, okay. like i've Not the exact. I finished i've finished ah Cynthia Lennon's memoir called John that she wrote in 2012.
00:44:48
Speaker
And it was all her perspective. of you know Because she was with John Lennon before like from high school and up until 67, 68. So she 10 years.
00:44:59
Speaker
so you know she was with him for like ten years I have a theory that the Beatles are ah to our generation what World War II was to our parents' generation in terms of like endless fascination. And it's like, because i my wife says things like, you know you want to read another Beatles book? Don't you know everything already? And I'm like, yeah, but that's part of what makes it so enjoyable is that I know 95% of what's going to be in this book, but that 5% I don't know is new information and it's fascinating. And even just reading the same stuff from a different perspective, I can't get enough of it.
00:45:34
Speaker
and It probably will come out in your work in in some useful way. Yeah, maybe, I don't know. Or maybe it is just literally something I read for fun.
00:45:45
Speaker
and And comfort, it's a good comfort read. It's very comforting. It's very
Hollywood vs. Reality: The Wild West Portrayal
00:45:49
Speaker
comforting. Maybe, yeah. like that. I remember ah one of my favorite books, a little Little Big Men, which is also one of my favorite movies. Also a Western.
00:45:57
Speaker
Yes, yes. And the the author of that dumb book read 50 books about the West. before he wrote Little Big Man. And then he had all this information in his head, you know, that then just came out. and um Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about. What you read does has have an impact in what you write, I think, quite a bit. sure Yeah.
00:46:19
Speaker
oh the Most of the West is a big Hollywood lie, just to just to state that so we all know. Yeah. I was reading something just today about the ah the classic shootout, you know, how that was completely a Hollywood construct.
00:46:34
Speaker
That's fine. I'm fine with that. Just, you know, we have to acknowledge it. That's all. Yes. Yeah. Okay, guys, as we wrap up, any final thoughts on post-apocalyptic ah movies, fiction, the movie that we were um ostensibly talking about?
00:46:50
Speaker
i would say that if you're a fan of Fury Road and you've never seen The Road Warrior, give The Road Warrior a try. Yeah. Post-apocalyptic media, that's cool. Post-apocalyptic, not cool.
00:47:01
Speaker
Yeah, the real post-apocalypse is going to suck. but Yeah, that would suck horribly. it say It would suck. Let's be you know conditional. yeah Matt, let me ask you this just before we go. um Would you recommend watching all of the Mad Max movies in order or just cherry pick them, the best ones?
00:47:20
Speaker
I mean, I think they're all great. I think even Thunderdome has its good things. I mean, I borrow heavily from Thunderdome in Hope, right? The children, the lot the the city of children. like it's it yeah it's Which, I mean, he borrows from a book called Ridley Walker. But I mean, it's all so all from the same pile.
00:47:42
Speaker
I would say watch them all. If you only wanted to watch two, yeah, then Road Warrior and Fury Road. That's, I guess... But otherwise, we wouldn't agree watch them in order. Mad Max, Road Warrior, or Mad Max 2, Thunderdome, Fury Road, and Furiosa.
00:47:59
Speaker
And I hope we get The Wasteland, which is supposed to be his last one. Oh, really? Okay, cool. Mark, any final? No, no. I'm good.
00:48:11
Speaker
Okay. Well, then my final word would be watch those movies, but then also pick up Matt Watts book, hope of the wasteland because it's a great book and hopefully he will write more in the series. And soon there'll be a sequel.
00:48:23
Speaker
Yes. Hopefully. Hopefully. Hope. Matt Watts. Thank you very much for being on our podcast. I
Final Thoughts on Post-Apocalyptic Fiction
00:48:30
Speaker
appreciate it. I love talking about this stuff and I can talk about it forever.
00:49:16
Speaker
Thank you.
00:49:49
Speaker
You've been listening to Recreative, a podcast about creativity and the works that inspire it. Recreative is produced by Mark Rainer and Joe Mahoney for Donovan Street Press, Inc., in association with Monkey Joy Press.
00:50:03
Speaker
Technical production of music by Joe Mahoney, web design by Mark Rainer. You can support this podcast by checking out our guests' work, listening to their music, purchasing their books, watching their shows, and so on.
00:50:16
Speaker
You can find out more about each guest in all of our past episodes by visiting recreative.ca. That's re-creative.ca. You can contact us by emailing joemahoney at donovanstreetpress.com.
00:50:30
Speaker
We'd love to hear from you. Thanks for listening. Music