Transcript
Speaker: Evening Squire. Oh, Squire. You got it. nutge Nudge, nudge, wink, wink. How's it going, man? I'm good. How about you? I'm feeling like really good about this episode because I'll be talking to an old, well, we'll be talking to an old friend.
Speaker: so Okay, cool. Well, I think I have a question that might be ah one that he'll enjoy as well. Okay. So your favorite analog technology that you no longer use. Do you have one? Because there's something you miss.
Speaker: No, but I will answer the question that, and I'll just show you my favorite analog technology. I still wear a watch. Oh, okay. It's not a digital watch. It's ah an old classic watch. And I was just thinking earlier tonight how great it was because I had my phone charging and it was like far away from me and I needed to know what time it was so I could be in time for this podcast. And I had my trusty analog watch on my on my wrist.
Speaker: No watch. i've but I've never worn a watch. Oh, really? No. yeah Maybe when I was a younger, when I was a kid, I might have had a Mickey Mouse watch for five hot minutes, but that was Because you don't care about time? Because I don't care about time, man. It's just a construct, dude.
Speaker: Cool. Wow. Okay. So what about you? Favorite panel? torn. I like the old phones, those big heavy Bakelite things. Like there's something- Because of the rings or something? Just the satisfying heft of them. Like you could phone an album with those.
Speaker: that which was fun. Like you could put an album on one and put the ringer down and destroy the album. That was fun. But I also liked, i really liked the wax roller thing I had when I was editing the lecture, which was the arts paper at Queens. So like,
Speaker: back Those were back in the days before computer layout, so we laid everything out on flats. And then so we would take you know photos and the articles and stuff, and we put them through this wax roller, and like wax would go on one side, and then it would get sticky on the one side, and you could lift things up and move it around.
Speaker: It was like very satisfying. It smelled good. Yeah. A little nasty, but it was good. Can I, can I want to give you another answer, but I'm not going to, because I, it could be the answer that our guests will give. so I'm not going to. Okay. Well, let's not go to Sean.
Speaker: Yeah. Sean, perfect. Welcome to Recreative. Thank you. And I was thinking about my favorite analog technology. I'm ready. I'm ready. All So what was it? What was it? What was your favorite analog? It was something that got me in horrible trouble. My first day of work, at Canadian Broadcasting Corporation's Ant-Man in 1985, but it did ah my love was still unrequited, and I love it still. It was my Sony...
Speaker: TCM 5000 cassette tape deck. Oh, love that thing too. That was such a wonderful machine. And so here's the trouble that got me in. So first day at CBC, I was at headquarters in Saskatchewan where I started Regina for a week of training before I went on to Saskatoon.
Speaker: And they taught me the basic functions. And it was a really simple machine. So was a play, record. It was all good. That's great. I was ready. And they said, oh, ah so-and-so, Cabin Mr. So-and-so is in the front entrance, the Galleria, we called it.
Speaker: You go out and record this interview with them. Here's a list of five questions. Out I went with my tape recorder on my shoulder. This is 1985. I've got ah a beautiful Electra Voice 635A mic plugged into another solid piece of analog technology.
Speaker: do my interview, get gray tape, very excited, walking over, and I see the technical supervisor, guy named Charlie Schell, stirring at me. Come over here, Sean.
Speaker: And I said, yeah? said, okay, you're the new guy, so we're going to give you a break, but you've got to understand the NABEC contract. NABEC was in charge of the technicians then. Outside the building, you're free. We're not happy about it, but you're reporters. It's in the contract now. You can go out and play and record and do all of that stuff. But when you're in the building, you find a technician and you have him stand beside you. He will hold the machine and he will hit play and record and you hold the microphone. And that's how we do it. But anyway, I went on to have many adventures with that machine and was flawless. It never, ever let me down.
Speaker: And I would have been the tech actually. Yeah. Holding the, ah yeah. If you were with if you're with me and I would have loved it. I just didn't know. And I wanted to, uh, help my friends in, in, uh,
Speaker: and na that and I would have followed the rules, but I just didn't know the rules. So we we should explain then at this point exactly who you are. So you you were a net producer, a short for network producer, for many, many years. Yes. yeah I started as – I thought I was going to be channeled into the newspaper business. When I came out of journalism school, I worked at some daily newspapers, the Vagino Leader Post, Calgary, Herald,
Speaker: That didn't quite turn out because it was kind of sort of a recession time in the early 80s and there wasn't much growth in the business. And I ended up at some weeklies and controlled circulation. But then a job opened up in radio at CBC. And so from 1985 to 1990, first five years, I was a guild reporter. I did all kinds of general assignment and sometimes specialized as cops and court supporter and sometimes court reporter. But then in 1990, a guy named Joe Fiorito, who's quite famous amongst some CBC colleagues. Oh, I used to read his column in the Toronto Star. Yeah, he went on to the Toronto Star afterwards. He was producer of the food show and network producer at the same time. He was allowed to ah go full-time into the food show.
Speaker: Slot opened. I was kind of a oddball in the station and asked a lot of questions and wondered how the road was doing. And he said, come work for the network. And then...
Speaker: began the happiest days of my professional life, which from 1990 to 2015 as network producer in Saskatchewan. Yeah. And we'll talk about what you get up to afterwards, because I know you're still extremely active, but thanks very much for agreeing to. It's my pleasure, Joe. And it was always great working with you. So it was a real honor to be asked and to come on your show.
Speaker: Well, and I, yeah, so it's something else we should explain is, um so the last time I saw you actually was, and I've been reading your um material on on Facebook. I screamed. Yeah. No, I love it. I told my neighbor, he came up to me in SuperStory, you've been on Facebook a lot lately. he said, well, well, it's better than being physically violent. and he said, well, keep it up. Yeah. and And you were happy on Facebook today. And we'll we'll talk to yeah a little bit about why that was. But yeah, so the last time I saw you was, I believe, about 19 years ago in Moose Jaw.
Speaker: Yes. When I was there with the show q Yes. The very start of Q. Yes, with a character by the name of Gomeshi. Yes. And that we were doing a remote out of Moose Jaw. And you were extremely helpful during that that remote. And I'll never forget, the day I think it was the day after the remote, you met me in the lobby of my hotel and took me on a grand tour Moose Jaw. And I still have pictures from that, a picture of me and a moose that you took. And you took me to the train museum. And you were just so kind and generous that I super appreciated that. Yeah, at the network, they called me Saskatchewan because I kind of – I'm really just passionate about promoting the province.
Speaker: That's better than Smoke and Joe or Squire. Yeah, yeah. Saskatchewan. Saskatchewan. That worked. No, it was fun, and I really liked showing my ah colleagues you know what we had to offer.
Speaker: It was a very different operation in Saskatchewan at the time. It's really been compressed and compacted since then. But we, you know, we had a lot of talented, skilled people. We had a lot of production capability. We had one of the finest studios in Western Canada that does not exist anymore.
Speaker: in its current form. And yeah we could do all kinds of things. And it was an exciting time when you were coming, when you came in, Joe, digital was really hitting CBC full force at that time that we could do things in a new way more easily, more quickly. So it was quite I think it a very creative time.
Speaker: to to be Yeah, yeah. And I remember actually ah in in Regina, I had to work on a, we had to do the show using an Honor 2000 that you guys had, yeah um a digital console. one of the It was probably one of the first iterations of the digital console, but I had never used it before. So I had to figure out the day before how to use the darn thing. Yeah, The show could have gone seriously. And I think one of the guys was helping you was my supervisory tech, Charlie Goldie. He was the guy who put me straight on the NAPIT contract of 1985.
Speaker: So don't worry, Mark. We won't spend the entire time talking about CBC and leaving you out of it. yeah but but But before we get into other stuff, I just want to, if I could, just… well i did work at the cbc for like five minutes Oh, there you go. So we're all, yeah, we're all working veterans. Yeah.
Speaker: So how long have you been out of the CBC now, Sean? 2016, officially. a decade. so And after being a a nut producer and and and doing the work that you did for so long, did did you miss it? Did you find the transition difficult? I i did. i did. And and the the saddest thing about the experience for me is that, um you know, it wasn't just...
Speaker: It's kind of an interesting story. I'll make it really quick. My regional director came to me one day in 2015 and said, Sean, could you retire? And you know and I knew that we were this was CBC cut season and we're facing a lot of challenges. And I was kind of expecting this. But I said, um like when?
Speaker: And he said, tomorrow. And I said, tomorrow too soon. I'm doing a documentary for ideas. Deadlines in six weeks. Oh, we can do six weeks, Sean. And so, okay.
Speaker: So, ah yeah. But what what that round of cuts was it was very important to the core of network producers because CBC was in such desperate shape, they told us in 2015, that to have the number of network producers. And every network producer almost was something.
Speaker: key exceptions had to double up. And so what it meant was the network producer role was ended in Saskatchewan and taken over by Manitoba. And then in short order, within weeks of my ah cutting, um CBC as a standalone region sort of faded to black and it's now under control CBC Manitoba. That's where management is now. And it's it's kind of weird because CBC Saskatchewan started in 1937 as basically a bureau of CBC Manitoba. And as the years went by, fought for its autonomy and independence. And I think in 1974, it became a region. And we thought, that's it. That's great. Saskatchewan's a region now. And all of
Speaker: And then in 2015, it did have operated. So I think CBC could have, if if I can be critical of my old employer, I think they could have done that a little more elegantly. And it just just didn't affect me. i um ah Manitoba, well, Alberta needs to. They ended up with one network producer.
Speaker: um In the Maritimes, it really got squished down. You might know more about that. Well, maybe you should explain for for everyone exactly what a net producer was When the network producer was created, I think, in the late 70s or nineteen eighty s it had a lot to do with somebody, I think you both know, Peter Zawski. And he was ah ah the oldest country in the morning, I believe this is the story. he was He didn't feel he was getting the content he wanted from the region. And he had a lot of clout in the corporation at that point. And he said, we need
Speaker: people specially designated in the regions to work with us. And he had so much ah influence at the time. Management agreed with him. And so a series, I think, of of the initial group was 10 network producers were set up in each region.
Speaker: Alberta had two Ontario had a special arrangement because they've got so much going on, you know, network producers in Ottawa and other places. ah But ah so this group of 10 people brought Canada, not my dog. I hear a dog back there someplace. That's my dog. Very good. he's He's commenting on it. He's saying, Sean, speed it up. You're getting boring. But um I thought that was a really valuable role and it really did help bring Canada. the regents to the country. And I know Zosky adored it. And then he went away for a while, then came back with Morningside. And, you know, then he really wanted to push it. And he he was pushing us. And and it was interesting for those who knew he wasn't just a host. I mean, he had an executive producer, but he, think he called himself a managing editor and that's what he was. And he dealt with us direct.
Speaker: I got more than a few phone calls saying, good job or bad job or do this or do that. and But it was... direct input from Peter Zosky and sort of sat up straight. Yeah, Peter. Oh, great.
Speaker: Oh, yeah yeah we're yeah. We're going to hear my dog for a little while, so I'll just ah acknowledge that. That's okay. I never met Peter Zosky, but this is what a small world this is. So I went to journalism school at Western, and Peter Debra was the dean there, and he was my thesis advisor. And I guess he and Peter Debra worked together quite a few years. So I got lots of Zosky stories because I don't want bring them up because i loved I loved Morningside. That's the reason I went to journalism school. And, you know, what was really exciting at the end of his career in 1997, developed a pretty good relationship. It was kind of a father-son thing going almost.
Speaker: Wow. I felt. ah But he really identified with me because ah he would he remembered his roots, his beginnings in Moose Jaw as the editor of the Moose Jaw Times Herald. And um I was, in some respects, sort of a surrogate, you know, i don't know.
Speaker: Maybe I might be reading too much into it, but he took a lot of interest in the Saskatchewan region, and he really went to bat ah for me to get programming on the air. And then when the concept came up, you know, i don't think I was a alone, but a few oddballs in the Morningside unit said Peter...
Speaker: why don't we bring things full circle with you and bring you back to Moose Jaw where you basically started your journalistic career and you can end your CBC life effectively.
Speaker: He went on to do other things, but you're this big thing in Moose Jaw. He said, yes, let's do that. And so then I became sort of the producer in Saskatchewan and then helping him pull together his is finale, which was awesome and emotional. And, uh, key people at the, uh, in his, in his circle in Toronto, he never shared it with me, but I knew something was up and I think he'd got bad health news and he, he was not in great physical shape and really emotional. And so there was a lot of, um, you know, Peter, we can do this. Like he, it was really interesting behind the scenes.
Speaker: And, uh, But we got through it and it was fantastic. It was one of the best shows he ever did. and So this is this is Mark's genius in asking questions at the beginning of the show. He asked about analog. And there's an analog story about Zosky that when we moved to the new broadcast center,
Speaker: we had all digital clocks and Zosky didn't like the digital clock because he was always looking at it to figure out, you know, when to, because he hadn't talked to time yeah yeah and he had to end at a specific time. So he um insisted that they replace it with an analog clock and it remained an analog clock for,
Speaker: Well, for the remainder of his career. That's why I did not know that. What was wrong with the digital clock, though? I don't understand. Well, he used the second hand to, you know, when the second hand went to the top. Yeah, of course, you don't get that necessarily, right? Yeah. Digital probably just pissed him off generally, too.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm trying to imagine what all our non-Canadian, non-CBC listening to audience members are thinking about right now. Yeah.
Speaker: He was the Garrison Keillor of Canada. Did you ever hear that interview he did with Keillor, Joe? I don't think so. No. It was, you know, Keillor knew Zosky. He knew Keillor.
Speaker: They were, and you know, and they were plowing the same ground. Keillor in America, him, up in Canada in some ways. Keillor was a different... always thought Stuart McClain was the Garrison Keillor of Canada.
Speaker: Well, in some respects, yeah, but but ah when they're in the studio, Keillor was doing some promotional thing, and i get He was on he was any on the line with Peter or something. was he promoting that movie? I think he was.
Speaker: I think so. yeah and it was like two big dogs circling each other. And I was like, who can speak lower? The voices got lower and lower. They really respected each other a lot. And you know they had some laughs. But you could tell that there was like, that I know who i'm dealing with. I'm dealing with my big rival in North America kind of thing. And it was just fascinating.
Speaker: Fascinating thing. So anyway. i bet it would have been. Many Americans would know Zosky because, of course, much CBC programming was carried on NPR. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And I think there was a but a best the best of package that went out across Canada. I think that was fit to NPR. So, yeah. I think you were vastly, mostly, i I've just got to qualify the word mostly.
Speaker: Most Americans, because I don't know that NPR has that big. Oh, yeah. Listenership compared to. I think like 10 or 18% of an Americans listen to NPR. Yeah. regularly. got And God bless them. How many Canadians listen to the CBC?
Speaker: great CBC radio? Well, hell of a pile people still listen to morning radio. They've got great We've got great ratings for morning radio shows across the country. Not less and less TV, maybe. Podcasts are doing great. No, I mean radio. And also, radio lends itself to podcasts, too, right? Yeah. I hardly ever listen to live radio anymore, but I still do listen to a bunch podcasts. too. The shows that are podcasts. Don't tell anybody, guys. I find it hard to listen to CBC Radio now. I listen to lot podcasts. CBC and I, it's like breaking up with an old lover. We've got a history. We've got a history.
Speaker: Well, you know what? let's Let's talk about that because this is a perfect opportunity because Mark has a journalistic ah background. and you know and obviously I'm not a journalist. Okay, but that's okay. Actually, one on podcast. Yeah, that's Exactly. But Sean and I are you know we're intimately familiar with them with CBC for a long time. And i'd be I think it's okay for us to to look at it critically yeah now, retrospectively. And so what are your thoughts on that? um you know How do you think they're doing and and where are they going and what do they need to do
Speaker: ah You know, I meet so many ah wonderful young people ah in the context I do have with the corporation and I'm deeply impressed by the dedication to diversity.
Speaker: Like I know the newsroom in Rajan is way more diverse than when I was there, and that is fantastic. You've got wide range of young people from different cultural professional backgrounds.
Speaker: um I think some of the rigor maybe is lost, and the fact that ah TV operations, and that especially in those regional plants, are so demoralized and so shrunken. like When I was a boy, when we were boys, Joey, well, it's probably less evident for you as ah as a network radio broadcaster, but in the regions, the big dogs were the, like the supper shows and the, you know, staff of a couple of dozen at Regina of all places, producers running around. And now that's compressed down to one person at a desk running their own camera and, you know, firing their own video clips and all the rest of it.
Speaker: So it's really sad to see that kind of life go out of these places but the radio people continue but it's the the resources are so thin I think it's it's tough ah to get the kind of direction that a lot of these young folk want and the rigor in in betting news copy and that sort of stuff I mean it's CBC is still miles ahead of the competition but i think it's not you know i I'm being the old fart I suppose
Speaker: 67 years old and, you know, they don't make it like they used to. I don't know that you can just blame that on the CBC, though. I think that's something you see generally. And I just think it's it's a fact of economics, right? There just aren't enough bodies to do the work that used to be done. There used to be a lot more people in a newsroom. Yeah, and and I think people who consume regional news, it's it's a challenge for them. But they're going other places for news, too. i know that websites...
Speaker: Influencers, man. That's the new thing. oh well Influencers, yeah. We've got some digital news. ah like We've got a company called SAS Today. and They turn out they ched a lot of news unique to the province. There's a a Western business business news website that does great things. and The news is coming from strange new places. there's a Get ready for this, guys. There is a disposal bin company in Regina called Just Bins and they they rent out dumpsters since they like LORIS disposal but on a regional scale but the owners are passionate about local news and so they have a local news coverage called Just Bins News and they they're kind of the TMZ of news in Regina and
Speaker: Right now there's a ah screaming fight between themselves and the gay community. They tend to be a little right of center and authentically, you know, very Magi-ish if you want. They don't believe in being unpolitically correct.
Speaker: So there's a running battle between them and the gay community, which is kind of unpleasant. to watch But they do other things that are really interesting, like ah a guy ah was ah arrested a few months ago in Regina after the mysterious death of a woman on a he so on a highway near Weyburn. She'd been shot, and nobody knew where the shot came from.
Speaker: It was hunting season. The assumption was maybe a hunter aimed wide. and killed a motorist by mistake. It was a terrible, terrible thing. And there was a lot of commotion about it on social media. And one of the most vocal of these guys was a building inspector from Regina.
Speaker: And oh, terrible, terrible, terrible. Ends up, he was accused of the shooting. he He hasn't gone to trial yet. So it's only an accusation at this point. And he was arrested in the middle of the street. And Jeffs Benz had the scoop.
Speaker: Somebody sent them the video of him being stopped in his truck, pulled out of his pickup truck, being cuffed and frisked and all the rest of it. And they were the first saying that so-and-so got arrested. so um So it was news. me death for us too much kind of yeah yeah yeah so it turned up on a ah garbage disposal site.
Speaker: Oh jeepers. Okay, so i just I have to do my little ah pro CBC plug. Obviously, and i'm I'm often accused of being biased, but I did love working there. Oh, me too. Yeah, and I still firmly believe in in the mission. I mean, because this is a company. Oh, the mission more important than ever.
Speaker: Yeah. Arms length from the government, not owned by billionaires. and you know And how many news outfits can can say that? yeah Maybe that the one that you're talking about isn't owned by billionaires yet. But but you know it's it's interesting for all of the pressures that are on CBC and Saskatchewan, they're expanding. They're opening up new bureaus in small cities that have all been were underserved when I was in the business decades ago. So there are signs, there are green shoots and signs of life, but, um,
Speaker: Well, I know, and just to get into it a little bit more, some of my my friends who were diehard CBC fans, but who would still identify as being left of center, stopped listening because they felt that the CBC was becoming too, quote unquote, woke, you know, a common criticism of the of the CBC. right what What are your thoughts on on that, where it sits with that?
Speaker: I hear that too. And it's it's kind of part of the political rhetoric of right wing politicians in Saskatchewan right now that CBC is woke and, you know, they're against us, but I have a long enough, uh, span of career, ah you know, covering news and current events to know whatever parties in power, they're always mad at the CBC. And I used to make me mad when Crayton's people were mad at us and Maroney's people and,
Speaker: Stephen Harper, we were doing something right if everybody was mad at us. And I know- You know you're doing your job when all politicians are mad at you. You know you got it right as a journalist. Yeah. And the thing, maybe it was different in Toronto, but I thought in my day, we had a really interesting cross-section of people. You didn't hear, because of journalist policy, you didn't hear people expressing opinions on the air.
Speaker: But, you know, we had people who were in pretty centrist like me, and then we had people quite far to the left right left. And being Western Canada, we had some rednecks, I would say, on staff. they didn't you know They didn't show their redness on air. But we had a really diverse group of people who sort of represented the community. We were everybody. And I think that made us stronger. He was a little bit. Oh, yeah. yeah I had some really interesting talks with Rex.
Speaker: You know, when he was at CBC, it didn't show as much because he kept a journalistic policy and he'd been involved with the CBC for decades out in Atlantic Canada. But when he left cross-country checkup and, you know, was working with more right-of-center news outlets and being himself, yeah, it became clear who he was. He showed us who he was, so. Yeah, no, it was interesting. but big I had really interesting um conversations when Rex came out in remotes. He really liked Saskatchewan, too. He really sort liked taking the pulse in Western Canada. It was clear that he was a very conservative man, but that didn't show up in what went to the air went on air. okay
Speaker: I remember once we were talking about Abraham Lincoln. And I said that I had read that when he was growing up, he only had access to the Bible and Shakespeare and Rex, that you know,
Speaker: slammed his hand on a darn good thing too. That's all a young man needs. is running a bottle in shakespeare and You know, that helped create some of the greatest political bros in the country. Anyway. Okay. i wanted I just wanted to ask Mark because I've never, I don't think we've ever talked about this, Mark. Like what, what are your thoughts on, ah you said just a moment ago that you believed in the mission of the CBC, but yeah what, do what do you think about where it's at? And, uh,
Speaker: Well, i see it is I think the CBC has a great opportunity right now. And it sounds to me like they're starting to do some of the right things, which is what this country needs is local news.
Speaker: That's what we desperately need. We have to think about news not as a money-making activity, ah There's lots of stuff that you know capitalism doesn't do well because it's hard to make a profit at. Education, fixing the roads, sewers, water. I would argue covering local news. It's not super sexy. I've done it. I've worked at local newspapers.
Speaker: it's It's not always even fun. lot lot of time it is quite fun. so like I feel like that's what CBC should be concentrating on. yeah and I like the model of digital because it means that You can have a radio show.
Speaker: Yes. But then you can also produce a web story. Maybe there's even a video story. i really think the CBC needs to get out of the business of covering. so This is going to be very unpopular, but covering sports, covering entertainment,
Speaker: doing movies. That's not, that's really, I know you're going to disagree with me, but I, that's not really where we should be spending our limited resources. Our limited resources should really be going towards news and informing the Canadian public of the things that they need to know about.
Speaker: And the rest of it, someone's going to do because they can make money at it. And so like if it's a public service, let's treat it like a public service. And I think my big criticism of the CBC is really that it's lost sight of that and it's tried to do everything and it wants to be in the sexy business of television.
Speaker: And i I just don't think that should be the core business. And that's really where most of the money gets spent. And I think it would be much better to spend it on journalism. Okay, I'd love to hear her Sean's response to that. Well, uh,
Speaker: We're a lot less in those things now. We. this ter Do you have the same thing, Joe? Do you talk about we? Were talking about the CBC? I can't can't help myself. Oh, yeah. Still, yeah, absolutely. You know, Joe and I didn't have jobs. We had missions, right? it was like I called it a vocation, yeah. yeah It's like the police or the railroad or the army.
Speaker: didn't have jobs. All public Yeah, yeah. Anyhow. I guess i'm it's it's like the IRA, once in, never out. But um you know CBC is really distilled down from what it was. like it's pretty much When you talk about sports, they're pretty much out of pro sports, and they're covering amateur sports, which for the most part, which they aren't doing. kind of art the Olympics, out of the NHL. And they're they're covering aspects of arts and entertainment that you know won't get kind commercialized.
Speaker: exposure that you'll get anywhere else i i don't know i don't know but i listen to commotion i mean i love commotion it's a great show yeah but like frankly do we need is it canadian yeah sometimes but mostly it's not and mostly it's pop culture and yeah there's other places to do that and that's money that we can spend on something else i'm i'm with you if if uh if if cbc wants to put even more into regional broadcasting and places that aren't getting covered and yeah Moose Jaw and Penticton, the Lunenburg, those kind of places.
Speaker: That's just great because the way our business has been so changed and crushed and pulverized by digital. ah there isn't a lot of money to be made in news coverage.
Speaker: And the people are suffering as a result, I think, and not getting permission. Yeah, it's hollowed out. It's not just yeah our country. It's yeah many countries. So i think I think the future is going to be CBC, and it's going to be nonprofit entities. yeah Like one just started up a few weeks ago. I a little bit skeptical. I don't know if you saw me talking about it on Facebook. It's financed by the Westons. And it seems to be a news agency devoted to sending out positive messages about Canada and its culture. you know maybe it'll shake down differently. but But I really like the model in the States, ProPublica, that's totally non-profit and it's supported by donations. And they have the freedom to report whatever the hell they want. And they're doing really great work. So I think that yeah is the future. And we see the amnets are falling apart in states. and
Speaker: Yeah, Canada Land is another example of ah of a yeah non-profit that yeah seems to make sense to me. but I'm not sure if it's technically a non-profit. Maybe Jesse Brown can tell us if he's actually making money on that or not. I think he sells some ads. They're breaking Canadian stories. They're just covering Canadian. and and that's you know that's a little bit what I think the CBG should be concentrating on, too. I think what you're talking about is going to become more and more apparent as as we go on. I think so. I think it's going to become a more apparent just in our economy generally that we have to accept that there's –
Speaker: Yeah, capitalism works great for some things, but not for everything. We have to just accept that and work with it and do the best we can. Yeah. But, you know because of my background, i don't know if you feel the same way. I sure hope that CBC doesn't back away from really strong national current affairs coverage the as it happens. Oh, yeah. Oh, yes oh no, that that's part of the they part of the mission. Yeah, Q. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: yeah know Yeah, see that. your sco Yeah, because now know Q is an example of of, I would say that the coverage, because I still occasionally listen to Q live, yeah and there's a lot more American stories on Q compared to what I remember from like 10 years ago or 15 years ago. But it's still a lot of Canadian stories and a lot of Canadian artists are covered there. So that's that's one that I go, yes, this is on the on the on the balance. This one's a show that I think is doing it right. Yeah. and doing Canada right.
Speaker: I'm glad to hear you say that. I can't help but be a little bit partial to that show. Yeah. so But now, before we get far... And I love Tom Power. Tom Power is a great interviewer. Yeah. Brilliant, man. Wow.
Speaker: So at the 40 minute mark, uh, no, Sean, we, uh, we came here for, what are we to talk about? Yeah. Yeah. so I guess it was the CBC. I guess that was i know you did your homework. Get me going on the CBC. Yeah. Well, we couldn't miss this opportunity, yeah but so, okay. You never told us before we started this, what it, the, the choice of art that you were interested in talking about.
Speaker: So tell us now. Well, I want to talk about my art, ah I guess I'm biased since 2017, myself and my daughter, Bullyapurpek, who anybody out there in the business, she is one of the most brilliant, experienced audio editors and producers in the country. She's like a young Joe Mahoney. i mean, what the heck? She's so good. Joe Bodie with the fire in his eyes. That's right. That's right. She's really, really good and it can do anything. Together, she and I have done about 60 audiobooks, and she keeps moving from strength to strength. But our latest audiobook has been really rewarding. It's a book by a Regina...
Speaker: based author and English professor named Melanie Schnell. It's called The Ground Beneath Our Feet. It's a it's a mystery novel, essentially, with tu out of a lot of philosophy and environmentalism mixed in. And the really exciting news is it's really taken off with her community and with the critics, and it is nominated for four in four categories at the upcoming Sask Book Awards, Saskatchewan Book Awards coming up, I think, on May 1st, including Saskatchewan's Book of the Year.
Speaker: So that's all happening for her. And then we had this opportunity to turn this brilliant novel into an audiobook with both her doing some narration, but this really brilliant actor, drama professor named Mark Claxton,
Speaker: During the bulk of the narration, it creates about 27 different characters, and it was fantastic. Wow. And the cut that Zoe did on it was just immaculate, Joe. She's so good at what she does. Makes her dad really proud.
Speaker: Okay, I'll get a two-prong question then. So the first one is tell us more about about the book itself, what it's about, and you know kind of sell that. But then I want to get into the – I'm sorry, Mark. I have to get into a little bit audiobook production. Oh, that's actually good i because that's something that I need to wrap my head around because I have yet to produce an audiobook of any of my novels. so You too can be an audiobook producer.
Speaker: right We can work together. well I'm literally delivering a course on making audiobooks for the Writers' Federation in New Brunswick in in about a month. Oh, well, we've got to talk, Joe. Yeah.
Speaker: Very quickly, the book is about 15 years back in the past, and it's in a mythologized version of Regina. sort of If Regina was picked up and placed in southern Ontario...
Speaker: It reminds me of a Robertson Davies place, but it's recognizable Regina, but it isn't. That doesn part doesn't matter. But the protagonist, Jess, is ah ah a wounded Afghan war vet. The Afghan war is still going full strength.
Speaker: And he's been in a firefight, seriously wounded. And his buddy beside him, who's also from this Regina-like place, is killed in action. And so ah the the The mainspring of the plot is he's come back to Regina to, he's the military escort, that as was the practice in forces, you came home escorted by a friend, a comrade, and he's brought him back to Regina to bury him.
Speaker: But this is also an opportunity to reunite with a sister who he was estranged of from earlier. And all he knows is that she's living somewhere on the street and things are not,
Speaker: going well for her. And within hours of him arriving, she's implicated in what the police believe is a murder. And so um all of his loyalty and his guilt related related to not looking after sister well enough and going off and being a soldier is sort of activated. And he's got to solve this murder while at the same time burying his buddy. And it takes you on a real ride through The Dark Underbelly of Mythical Regina. and the action is a case yeah yeah The action is occurring in a city park where he's meeting a bunch of street people, and that's where his sister lived with them. The murder occurs here. And all under this huge oak tree. I think that, know I haven't asked the author about this. Huge oak trees do not exist in Regina, but there's a huge oak tree in this novel. And everything happens. The murder happens there and the the people are gathered around it. And there's a clock running on the oak tree and on the park because a developer, perhaps for impure reasons, has got permission to knock this park down, bulldoze it, and develop condos on it. So lots of stuff happened. Is it it our digital clock or an analog clock? I think it's analog. It's 2010. So there's more analog than digital clocks.
Speaker: But it just ah what was remarkable about the book is the characters are so well developed. And my... Narrator Mark was so happy because he had so many well-defined and well-written characters ah that he could develop.
Speaker: But Melanie comes in and she does a brilliant job performing the sister. the so The sister is mute, but she's very literate and she leaves a diary and she's performing this diary that helps advance the plot.
Speaker: So it's a really ah it's a really good adventure as well as making some really profound points about alienation and the environment and family. And I recommend it. And it's available, ah as Joe would say, from audiobook good audiobook sellers everywhere. And ask for it at your public library. What's the title again?
Speaker: The Chorus Beneath Our Feet by Melanie Schnell and published by Radiant Professor Regina. Have you read or heard um Lincoln and the Bardo? Yes. Yes. And I think we should talk about that because ah that was a groundbreaking book.
Speaker: And it's inspired other things. Like there's an incredible production that Penguin commissioned of Pride and Prejudice. know if you guys have heard it, but like an all-star cast, every great British actor you could think of is in it and a bunch of newcomers. And it's just done fantastically. And there's like 27 different speaking parts and all the rest it. Lincoln and the Bardo was like that. But I don't think Lincoln and the Bardo and this latest production of Pride and Prejudice are what I call audio books in what is now becoming a classical sense. These are radio plays. Yeah. Yeah. right You know, uh, being delivered to you as an audio book. And I don't, I think the kind of thing Joe and I do, is quite a bit different. It's more intimate and involves your voices. Having done both, yeah. And and I'll just ah name check Robert J. Sur as well. His book, The Downloaded Parts 1 and 2, also done as a full cast radio play, yeah which I really think that CBC Radio needs to get back into doing in this age of podcasting. Oh, man, getting started on that. That was one of the biggest strategic decisions they ever made, bailing out of radio drama. And when I see the
Speaker: Brits and the Norwegians and all these Scandinavian countries doing this fantastic radio drama. yeah And we do bupkis. So you could not call CBC Radio woke because we ah guys... Wicca! I had so many good friends who were in the drama department and they went on to do great things because they were all genius people. But that was such a mistake giving up the capability.
Speaker: Anyway. Okay. Okay. So now, I'll walk us through how. So I've recorded many books, short stories, whatnot, with the CBC. I've recorded my own novel, A Time Place. as't i'm Very good.
Speaker: Thank you very much. ops yeah yeah i really I'm currently recording ah my collection of short stories. It's all recorded. I just need to edit it. So I need your daughter, actually. Maybe she can help. She could do it. But tell me, how do you guys do it?
Speaker: I should preface this by saying that I had a very interesting excursion. I'd like to get back there sometime if anybody from Penguin Random House is listening, but I did do a tour of duty as a freelance director with them. So I got to see how the big guys did it. Were you working with Ann Jensen? Was she there at the time? Yes.
Speaker: Ann Jensen, formerly of CBC Arts and worked around drama, when she went over and took over Penguin, I thought, that's interesting. I'll file out a way. And then um I got an angle. a knew it's It's a long story, but Guy Vanderhaeg, his latest brilliant novel, which is called August into Winter, from about five years back.
Speaker: I was talking to Ann and they said they were looking for a narrator. And I said, well, I worked with him at the CBC. I think he'd be perfect for this. R.H. Thompson. You can get us R.H. Thompson. We've tried getting R.H. Thompson. He's not available. I'll talk to Robert. So I talked to him and he was available and was wanted to work with me again.
Speaker: And if you guys ever get a chance to listen to his performance of August into Winter, it is heartbreakingly beautiful. it was such a great, great thing. So I got to see how they did it. I love Gary Thompson. Yeah. He's great.
Speaker: If you want to know what the workflow is. So, uh, what is developed is get the book. We read the book and then I, I act as a director, sound engineer. So I line up a, um,
Speaker: a narrator. And I don't know what it's like for you, ah Joe, but there's been really fabulous advances in home recording technology since 2017. It's going ahead by leaps and bounds. like When I was first was recording audiobooks, I needed to build all kinds of insulation. You know, I'm recording at home and I had to build a studio in my office. It was really awkward and really hard to work with. But now what I can do is that I can just take, i i'm just going swing it into the shot.
Speaker: just a mic on a boom arm like that, and i can record the narrator at my desk. And then through post-production, I lean really hard on a tool ah called AudioRx. I can basically turn my Regina suburban basement into studio quality sound.
Speaker: and the post-production process. So we can look back around again. I'm also remembering when we interviewed Blair, Blair Young. Yeah. There's my mic. And that's called an I. He had that crazy cone silence thing. Yeah, it's called an I. That just really helps me reduce ambient noise to a minimum around me. So it's really good. And my mic is, oh, just expose the mic.
Speaker: Show it on music. This is a really solid mic. It's an AKG. Oh, no, no, not AKG. It's an audio technique. clip Okay. So he, yeah. So just for those who can't see, Sean took this ah big, um like like a giant oval windsock type thing over the top of the mic. He just took it off to reveal the, yeah like it literally looks like the eye of Sauron.
Speaker: Yeah. Except it's purple. It's purple. You can get them in different colors. okay. But, uh, Yeah. And yeah, so a combination of good mics, good accessories, and really cutting-edge software, we can get a really professional sound. But anyway, getting back to the workflow. So the narrator comes in. I'm off to one side ah monitoring. i i'm And I use a DAW, a da digital audio workstation, for those who don't know the acronym, called Hindenburg.
Speaker: Yeah, it closely resembles a platform Joe and I used to work with ah called Dalit. So I like it. And Hindenburg is getting better and better. So I i record, get it all down, raw tape.
Speaker: Then I turn it over my daughter Zoe, and she cuts. And she's a really fast, efficient, superb cutter. yeah And so the yeah it's cut together. And then we hand it over to an audio-proof listener.
Speaker: We've got some good people. ah this the This is the proofreaders of the modern era of audiobooks. I'm laughing. It makes sense. yeah yeah They listen. They give us the corrections that need to be made. So I've contracted the narrator. Part of their contract is to come back in and be prepared to do corrections.
Speaker: And usually that's like an additional day or two of work. So we do those corrections. Zoe does her final cut. We turn it over to the publisher. They listen to it. And they say, yes, upload it. And then we provide. If you wanted, we provide upload. Like Zoe is a master of the various audiobook upload platforms. There's two basic ones, as you know, Joe, called Audible. And the other one is called now In Audio, formerly Findaway. And she puts the books up there. Oh, and we also contract an artist to do the audio book thumbnail, all important, to do that well.
Speaker: Because it's a different ratio than the normal bookstore. Yeah, it's perfectly square, 3,200 by pixels. And I don't know what direction you work with, but the the publishing companies, um audio book vendors I work with, say they want the text all of the text title and author's name above the center line so they can put their logos in the bottom half i see with big titles like margaret atwood the people who produce those
Speaker: ah thumbnails as they call them, do whatever they want but yeah for the rest of us. Okay. So some nitty gritty questions. So obviously the corrections are not done in sequence. Is it when you're doing the main recording, do you record all that in, in order to make the editing easier or do you yeah do the voices separately? or Yes. Yes. like the character character Well, in in the case of this latest project, because, well, I've got a small space and I couldn't get Melanie and, and and Mark, my main narrator,
Speaker: in the same space at the same time, both busy people. So we recorded his stuff, which is about 95% of the book. And then we then Melanie came in and did her stuff, the other 5%. And then Zoe, I think, in her workflow, she edited um Mark first. whom She loves editing Mark. He becomes so well-prepared. We call him One Take Claxton.
Speaker: Marvelous guy. Any audiobook producers out there, meet this guy. hire him. It's very good. ah So she cut him and then she cut Melanie and then she just married the pieces together.
Speaker: And well i feel that was the first cut. We have to plug past guests too. So we have to ah Blair Young, who is on the show and also Lisa Brandt, another Canadian audio book writer.
Speaker: There are fabulous, yeah fabulous voice actors out there who are starting to specialize. you know, as audio books grow, uh, some people are starting to make a living on it. even and it's I have a question. This is a very personal question because I've started to experiment with doing this and I just can't, I mean, in journalism, we call it booting the copy. I can't seem to get through more than three paragraphs without booting something.
Speaker: Well, you're the guy we'd fix and post. Yeah, exactly. So how often do you have, I mean, how often would I have to then just do it again? It really varies with the, uh, with the performer like Mark Claxton really, really prepares. So there aren't a lot of takes. Then I work with another, my other go-to person when I need female voice is a former CBC drama producer, now director, actor, dramaturg, drama professor and performer, Kelly Jo Burke here in the city. oh She has a different, she has a different, kelly yeah.
Speaker: And she has a different creative approach. She'll do it, and then she says, well, want another take, and I want another take. So you'll you'll get more takes. It's not an excessive amount. I mean, she's a real pro, but she'll do what she takes to get it right. And Zoe accepts her copy with joy because she's very close to Kelly Jo and her family. She calls her Auntie Kelly Jo. So Kelly Jo has an in with Zoe.
Speaker: And so that's a different editing process. It was interesting listening, watching R.H. Thompson. he his He had a ah process. similar to Kelly Joe.
Speaker: He, i think we would do more takes with him because he wants what he wants. He's not it just a lot of direction. So we didn't give him a lot of direction, except he would take direction from Zoe. Zoe directed him. He just loves Zoe. But, um He'll just do it till he gets it right. So you might have 16 takes. And so is the audio. That makes me feel better.
Speaker: yeah, man. if extra takes two Two things I got to say, Mark, the fix for your problem with, uh, yeah, mistakes after a while, edit it yourself.
Speaker: So yeah. Yeah. That's how I've done it. Yeah. When I did, I did actually, i did produce a very early on in 2009, I did an audio book version of Marvelous Harry And the way that I did that was literally line by line. So like, if I screwed it up, I'd be like, okay, that's wrong.
Speaker: Cut that out. Start again. Okay. That was good. Next line. And that's how I did it. And it was just painful. but Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad you guys brought this up. yeah I didn't want to one thing I wanted to get in is, you know, the business is changing fast and people are struggling with the cost of audio books. I mean, that this is a whole other subject, but you know, uh,
Speaker: As you know, Joe, if you're if you're doing an audio book and you're working for a client, a publisher, and they want a pro narrator and they want a cutter separate from the director, like a cast of several people.
Speaker: You're looking at the best part of five or more thousand dollars in an audio book. Which you'll never recoup. Yeah. yeah Which you'll never recoup, especially at the in the sort of the lower and medium tier of publishing. So what to do about this cost? And some people are saying, well, our salvation is going to be AI and AI narration, which is getting better and better.
Speaker: Which is really controversial because that would put a lot of really great actors in business. And I don't know about you, but I want to work with actors on performance. But I think, and I'm actually going to try and pilot this. I'm going to do some work in the next few weeks. I've got some clients I really want to sell on this. Is that I think that another alternative path into the future of audiobook production to bring costs down is don't let IA replace the people.
Speaker: yeah core but but let record the people but let AI do the edit and there are products coming on the market like Descript that can actually do the edits so Mark can do an average of 56 takes per page and then fire all these hours into Descript and then Descript might be able to spit out at least a ah ah really ah respectable first cut doesn't that put your daughter out of work ah Well, what I want her to be doing is that if she is not getting the work to cut one great audio book, maybe she's up being the post producer of five descript edited audio books. And she's young and she's dynamic and she's technically really hip. So she and her peers, i think if they can ride the wave, they can. I wonder though. And and I know we're approaching the the end here, but yeah. So, I mean, so I edit these, these podcast episodes myself and. um
Speaker: And they sound great. Well, thank you, but I could never imagine turning it over to AI. I turned one episode over to my daughter, Kira, who's currently freelancing for the CBC, and she did a pretty good job. She's the only one i would trust because i'm I'm just very particular, you know? no i I understand that, but the the challenge is, ah you know, I i i did ah another tour of duty as an acquisitions editor for University of Regina Press for about 18 months, so I got a a sense how it is on the inside. for a publisher.
Speaker: So um you get the latest Joe Mahoney book and it's fantastic. And ah so they start they start costing it. So it might cost them, if they did a a really slim version of the book, like I'm talking about slim in terms of resources, they might get away with 5K to produce the print version.
Speaker: But if they want to do it and they think you've got potential as a trade title and could sell a lot of copies, they're probably going to invest $20,000 in the print book. And now, it you know, it took a while to get everybody in the business into into e-books. actually did a documentary on this for the CBC.
Speaker: But e-books can be produced for about an additional $500. That's good. So $20,000, $500, we're looking good. we've got to think about promotions and everything else.
Speaker: But the audio book. So where does U of R Press or Dundurn Press or Radiant Press and Regina, how do they justify the spending $5,000 to get that done? Or what if you're Joe Mahoney self-publisher, but you want to work with a cast of colleagues?
Speaker: Where do you find the $4,000 or $5,000 just to do the audiobook? So it's a challenge. So the economics, even though audiobooks are increasingly rapidly in sales, I've got a prediction here that it'll be nearly $2 billion dollars Canadian business by 2030. It's currently about $500 million dollars Canadian business in 2026.
Speaker: But where do these smaller players get the resources? So kent how do we I think it's going to be how can we use digital intelligently? So if we spend our money in the production process with human beings on the production side, and if if we just don't have the resources, if we don't have the $5,000, then maybe we can, ah with some human human guidance, do something on the editing side with digital. But, I mean, it's it's it's tough.
Speaker: It's tough. I mean, you're in ah you're in a really privileged position because you can do it all. But if I'm working with Radiant Press and Regina, it's you know it's tough for them to scratch up $5,000 or $6,000 to do it properly as traditional in your book.
Speaker: Yeah. Well, send them to me. All right. All right. We're going have to wrap it up there. But any ah final thoughts, ah ah questions, Mark?
Speaker: ah No, not at all. This is really enjoyable, though. I've learned a bit. yeah I would say, guys, were in you know for for i would say older gentlemen, I think we've picked a really interesting ah set of gigs to do because it's just going to get more interesting and there's going to be more excitement and more challenges. And audio is booming. and ah lots of people are going to, especially ah the younger set, want to consume yeah books and audio.
Speaker: Yeah. so that's I'm on it. I know I need to get on it. Yeah. So however we do it, however we do it, we've got to keep in there. got to keep relevant. i Keep slugging. We don't have to. I mean, we could write off into the sunset. And our daughters, our daughters, Joe, they're the they're the future. that's Absolutely. the future so that's true I'd like your daughter to meet my daughter sometime.
Speaker: I bet they'd have some interesting things to exchange notes on. This is true. Sean, perfect. Thank you very much for being on our podcast. Thank you. Great meeting you both. Thank you.
Speaker: You've been listening to Recreative, a podcast about creativity and the works that inspire it. Recreative is produced by Mark Rainer and Joe Mahoney for Donovan Street Press Inc. in association with Monkey Joy Press.
Speaker: Technical production of music by Joe Mahoney, web design by Mark Rainer. You can support this podcast by checking out our guests' work, listening to their music, purchasing their books, watching their shows, and so on.
Speaker: You can find out more about each guest in all of our past episodes by visiting recreative.ca. That's re-creative.ca. You can contact us by emailing joemahoney at donovonstreetpress.com.
Speaker: We'd love to hear from you. Thanks for listening. Music
