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October book club: Freshwater (S4E5)
41 Plays3 days ago
Our latest book club discussion is about Freshwater, a semi-autobiographical novel by Nigerian writer, Akwaeke Emezi. We talk about multiplicity and the character's experience with alters, and the role of trauma in its development. We aimed to view the story through the lens that the author intended while acknowledging our Western understanding and training - hopefully we succeeded!
- Book club info, detailed show notes, and other links: linktree.com/novel_feelings
- Get a 10% discount through Amplify Bookstore with the code NOVELFEELINGS10: http://amplifybookstore.com/products/novel-feelings-book-club
Additional content notes: Trauma (inc. sexual assault), gender identity, disordered eating, self-harm, suicide attempt, dissociation, Dissociative Identity Disorder
Our podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri Land, which is home to both of us in Naarm/Melbourne. Always was, always will be Aboriginal Land.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Novel Feelings'
00:00:04
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Novel Feelings, where two psychologists take a deep dive into your favourite novels. I'm Priscilla. And I'm Elise. Today we're bringing you a review of Freshwater by Iwaki Emezi. This is the second last episode of our season four book club.
00:00:21
Speaker
ah Hard to believe we're kind of coming to the end of our 2025 book club.
Book Club Recap
00:00:27
Speaker
yeah It's been a journey already. So yeah, we've covered in January, we covered Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow by Gabrielle Zevin. In March, Hospital by Sanja Rushdie. In May, get a Life, Chloe Brown by Talia Hibbert.
00:00:39
Speaker
In July, i Want to Die But I Want to Eat Tabaki by Bex Sehi. ah yeah Yeah, and now we're up to our fifth book. Absolutely.
Partnership with Amplify Bookstore
00:00:48
Speaker
And there are further discussions for each of this book in our Facebook group, ah including our discussion prompts.
00:00:55
Speaker
Thank you to our book club partner, Amplify Bookstore. Amplify is a bookstore dedicated to books by authors who are Black, Indigenous and or people of color with the aim to diversify your bookshelf.
00:01:08
Speaker
You can purchase all of our book club books in a convenient bundle or purchase them individually. They are offering 10% off to our listeners with the code novel feelings 10. So that's novel feelings one zero and check out our show notes, all links and disclaimers and keep up to date with us on our social media at novel underscore feelings everywhere.
Host Updates
00:01:29
Speaker
But before we dive into our review, ah Priscilla, how would you rate your week on a five-point scale? I would say it's a four out of five short week. I've actually only had a three-day work week this week, which is so rare. And what normally happens with a short week is that I would be cramming like five days work into three days instead of having a relaxing week.
00:01:53
Speaker
That did not happen this week. It was actually like I had a really nice day off on Monday. had a really nice day off on Friday and normal manageable days in between. So I feel pretty refreshed. um Yeah, that is, I feel like, rare in our age and career stage should be to be doing that. So that's fantastic. um We're recording on a three-day weekend as well. So I've had the public holiday as well, which has been good.
00:02:20
Speaker
Yeah. So nice. Thank you to the AFL for the extra day off. What about you, Elise? How would you rate your week on a five-point scale? I'm going to go three out of five life admin tasks. um As you know, but our listeners won't know, I'm moving house soon.
00:02:39
Speaker
um which is exciting. We've just bought a place, which is, know, it's a lot nicer and bigger than where we are at the moment. And I'm really excited to move in, but my God, there's a lot of work to do.
00:02:53
Speaker
to do with settlement things and packing and planning for the actual move itself and all the cleaning we're going to have to do so yeah it's been it's been a lot and we've trying to sort of uh scale back on social activities that are happening um sort of in the weekends before and the weekends after our big settlement dates and moving dates but uh yeah I'm ah type that finds it hard to say no to things so I'm like I really want do that but I have limited capacity at the moment but it's all going to be worth it well you did say no to two things um that I suggested sorry so you're doing well no I'm not offended I think I was just like oh this is something Elise would like and then you're like oh no that's a moving weekend can
00:03:42
Speaker
It's like, don't you have like four moving weekends? Well, kind of. yeah I did say yes to one thing though. so that's something. Yes, that's right. Dinner party. Yes, I'm excited. It feels very adult to have a dinner party.
00:03:56
Speaker
Yes, love it. um Anyway, back to our book and author.
Introducing 'Freshwater'
00:04:02
Speaker
Eweke Emezi is a writer and artist using storytelling to center queer Indigenous Black realities and radical possibilities with a philosophy that re-indigenization is essential for liberation.
00:04:15
Speaker
Their art practice is deeply rooted in the metaphysics of black spirit, using our indigenous ontologies as a lens to focus on embodiment, ritual and re-memory. Born and raised in Nigeria, Emezi's work spans literature, music, film and visual art.
00:04:31
Speaker
Freshwater tells the story of Ada, an unusual child who is a source of deep concern to her southern Nigerian family. Young Ada is trouble, prone to violent fits.
00:04:42
Speaker
Born with one foot on the other side, she begins to develop separate selves within her as she grows into adulthood. And when she travels to America for college, a traumatic event on campus crystallizes the selves into something powerful.
00:04:59
Speaker
So why did we choose this book? ah Well, I suppose I was interested in this book because the only book I've ever read about multiplicity is Fight Club, which is a depiction of one type of multiplicity, dissociative identity disorder, but notoriously isn't a good representation um and sort of ah famous for contributing towards some of the negative media stereotypes about what it means to live with DID and multiple selves.
00:05:23
Speaker
So I was really curious about this author's perspective and they've spoken about their lived experiences of multiplicity. And i understand that Freshwater is semi autobiographical, um sharing a lot of details with the author's lived experiences.
00:05:38
Speaker
So I think it's really fascinating. um And one thing I wasn't sort of thinking about going into the book as well is how this ah novel is really ah different cultural understanding of multiplicity as well and I think we'll talk a bit more about this when we get into the synopsis in our discussion and review but we're trained in a western model of understanding multiplicity um and specifically dissociative disorders and yeah kind of expanding our perspective um a little bit about what that means and how different people view these different experiences which I think will be a really interesting discussion
00:06:13
Speaker
I think I said to you, Liz, after reading a lot of the author's interviews on this book, I was like, oh, they're going to hate the idea of two psychologists discussing this book. and But we are going to try our best to like not impose the DSM criteria and our Western training on this and this book because it's the author did not intend for it to be that way.
00:06:37
Speaker
Absolutely not. um So maybe maybe it's a good thing we're talking about it because we can maybe start to unravel some of our biases when it comes to um these lived experiences.
Sensitive Themes in 'Freshwater'
00:06:49
Speaker
Some the topics we're talking about today, we've already hinted, of course, but we'll definitely chat a lot about multiplicity and the main character's experiences with alters, how multiplicity can develop, including the role of trauma and Ada's relationships throughout the book.
00:07:05
Speaker
a little bit as well. We'll also touch on trauma, gender identity, disordered eating, self-harm, suicide attempt, and some discussion of self-harm methods. So please only listen if it feels right for you today.
00:07:19
Speaker
Let's start our review.
00:07:22
Speaker
Let's talk about the, well, essentially the main main theme throughout this book, which is most multiplicity, and which is encapsulated in the character of ado So who is Ada?
Ada's Journey
00:07:34
Speaker
Ada is the second child of a Nigerian doctor and his Malaysian wife, who is a nurse. And when Ada is still a child, his mother leaves to work abroad.
00:07:45
Speaker
The novel does follow Ada through to her. through her early childhood um into her young adult years as she leaves Nigeria to attend university in Virginia in the US.
00:07:57
Speaker
um But really the main theme of this book is Ada's experience with her inner selves or alters as they emerge over time or become more solidified or powerful.
00:08:11
Speaker
And it's these two competing voices, um I couldn't find a pronunciation guide for this name, but um one is called Asagara and another called St Vincent.
00:08:21
Speaker
And yeah, we sort of see how her different selves follow her from her home in Nigeria to college in North America um and really taking taking control and starting to become these more solidified inner selves um after a traumatic experience and specifically a sexual assault that that Ada experienced as well in college.
00:08:44
Speaker
Can I just jump in there? It says two competing voices, but actually like in the book, there are three main point of view. So there's we, which is like separate again from Asugara and St. Vincent.
00:08:59
Speaker
then there's azugara's point of view and then ada's point of view sometimes like i think we get to know azugara a lot more than we do ada saint vincent doesn't actually get his own um chapter but there's also like a jesus character which is so there's like quite a few different altars i guess in in ada's mind but azugara by jesus do you mean like the sort of god-like yeah Ishwa I think yeah ish yeah yeah well you know I'm Catholic so in my head it's like that's Jesus but I don't know if it's intended that way yeah I've definitely seen that character written about as being um Christ-like as well but yeah in any case we've seen multiple perspectives um and Ada despite being the main character um Ada is sort of viewed as being one self ah but other selves or combinations of selves this sort of this we perspective um take the lead and are our protagonists at various points in time ah but yeah we should probably talk about what multiplicity is because i I think some of our listeners might be going what on earth are they talking about when they say that word I think
00:10:11
Speaker
It is a new-ish term, isn't it Because I feel like I hadn't heard about it until this year.
Understanding Multiplicity
00:10:16
Speaker
It's new to me anyway, but yeah, sure. I think there's been a multiplicity or plurality community that's been around for quite a while.
00:10:25
Speaker
Yeah, that's fair. All right. So multiplicity refers to more than one self, which may be referred to as alters, parts, personalities, or selves.
00:10:37
Speaker
It's, I guess, a more affirming perspective of that experience rather than labeling it dissociation or dissociative identity disorder.
00:10:49
Speaker
But like multiplicity itself is actually not DID. No. So I think of multiplicity as being the umbrella term for a range of ah like a spectrum of experiences when it comes to having multiple selves. So um it can be people that have one additional self multiple.
00:11:07
Speaker
lots and lots, like hundreds or thousands of multiple selves. um It can be experiences where people have like fully formed and distinctive alters or some that are more subtle as well.
00:11:19
Speaker
But yeah, DID is sort of the the term that we're, you know, us as trained psychologists, in who were trained in a western country ah the most familiar with so you know dissociative identity disorder it is a disorder framing meaning that there is a sort of deficit framing to the experience of multiplicity um involves the presence of two or more parts or alters.
00:11:42
Speaker
um Used to be called multiple personality disorder, has been reframed um in the last 10 to 15 years or so, requires some form of distress or impairment, and also periods of dissociation or amnesia.
00:11:55
Speaker
But in different countries and different cultures, there are different understandings and interpretations of multiplicity, and many don't fall under this category of DID. and Notably as well in the dominant or our dominant Western understanding, alters are seen as being purely internal experiences, although will be caused by environmental factors, specifically um significant childhood trauma being that the dominant understanding of how multiple selves are formed.
00:12:24
Speaker
So there's this therapeutical approach called internal family systems, which is based on the idea that we are all systems of protective and wounded parts led by a core self.
00:12:35
Speaker
So, you know, that colloquial saying of like, oh, one part of me wants to have this whole tub of ice cream right now, but the other part of me knows that that's a bad idea. um if you've watched the movie the movies, Inside Out and Inside Out 2, they're also based on the idea of internal family systems.
00:12:54
Speaker
I should say this is to the best of my understanding and I've only just started learning it. So apologies. I haven't been trained in IFS at all. So I'm i'm just learning from what you know, what you're saying.
00:13:06
Speaker
I suppose IFS, the idea of IFS as well is that there are no bad parts. Like all of your parts are working to protect you in some ways, but maybe they're not oriented to the present. So they think you're still six and still needs a lot of help.
00:13:23
Speaker
or you know they go about it in a way that is good for the moment, but maybe not great for the long term. It also, I think, has this idea that most people's parts are well integrated into one consciousness. So like me, for example, you know the part of me that's a psychologist is not necessarily the part of me that hangs out with my husband, but there's an underlying in know one self and these parts are all well integrated.
00:13:52
Speaker
And it's trauma that leads to these parts fracturing. And it also exists on that spectrum. So people can have dissociation, but not DID.
00:14:04
Speaker
And often what leads to DID is extreme complex trauma. I think the goal in treatment of DID, for example, as far as I'm aware, is not to erase the parts, but to work towards what's called co-consciousness and collaboration.
00:14:20
Speaker
so it seems to me that the end goal is that essentially multiplicity um your parts may not be necessarily integrated into one but they can exist happily together and you don't experience that dissociative amnesia anymore because not one part is more dominant than the other but again as i said that's i'm still learning in this area Yeah, I think it's really about sort of integrating and being at peace and um often doing lot of trauma work to sort of work through there the ways that trauma might have impacted somebody over time as well.
00:14:57
Speaker
um But yeah, multiplicity, it is a real spectrum of experiences too. So some people are... you know, living their day-to-day lives at peace with having multiple selves or multiple alters.
00:15:10
Speaker
For others, they can be highly distressed, but the distress doesn't inherently come from having multiple alters, multiple selves. um I think I'm just going to stick to alters as my term because that's the framing I'm used to and I recognise that other people have different preferences.
00:15:25
Speaker
um But, yeah, and, you know, notably as well um in some other cultures as well, ah some people understand alters to be stemming from spiritual or outside sources as well, um which we'll go into shortly with Ada too.
00:15:43
Speaker
ah Yeah, it's not sort of inherently this trauma, negative trauma framing that um Western psychology tends to assume. Yeah, I tried to look into some other examples um of this apart from what Akwaeke MSI has said um about their experience. But all I could find was they were all framed in Western clinical understanding, which may just be because of my poor Googling.
00:16:12
Speaker
and
00:16:15
Speaker
But, you know, it is interesting how... Western researchers look at cultural phenomena like possessions and things like that and go, ah, that's a cultural culturally bound ah expressions of DID instead of seeing it as a like a valid spiritual or religious aspect of that culture.
00:16:37
Speaker
This could also be like a discipline thing, like maybe maybe anthropologists do a better job at that than psychology's. Quite possibly. and In any case, ah it is important to flag that within this book, Ada's experiences seem to be very directly drawn from Akwaeke Emezi's experiences of multiplicity.
00:16:58
Speaker
So we'll link to a few articles in our show notes, but ah Notably in an article in The Vulture, they talked about how when they were 16, they moved to the US to attend college, very similar to Ada, um and in their first week experienced what I believe was the first personality split. And then after the junior year of college, experienced a split again.
00:17:20
Speaker
and And one of their alters took over their life, um someone that was described as cold and cruel who moved through the world guided by the mantra that their pleasure mattered more than other people's pain.
00:17:32
Speaker
Another thing to note as well is that Emezi specifically talks about their experience of multiplicity as Ogbanje. So the novel charts Ada's experience um as an Ogbanje, which is a term stemming from Igbo people in Nigeria.
Cultural Perspectives on Identity
00:17:51
Speaker
ah And Ogbanje describes ah hostile spirits, which are believed to be born into a human body. um The term is sometimes translated into English language as changeling. So it's a similar kind of experience to that scene in certain folk tales.
00:18:07
Speaker
But yeah, and Mezi describes what that means for them in an article in The Cut and said, and look, Banjay is an Igbo spirit that's born into a human body, a kind of malevolent trickster whose goal is to torment the human mother by dying unexpectedly, only to return in the next child and do it all over again.
00:18:26
Speaker
They come and go. They're never really here. um If you were a thing that was born to die, you're a dead thing, even when you live. So, you know, Emezi also identifies as an Ogbanje and has said that they suppressed Ogbanje for many years.
00:18:40
Speaker
And because most of their education had been in the sciences and most of it was westernized, ah so it was quite difficult for them to consider or come to terms with this sort of ego-spiritual framing of their experiences and see it as being ah equally valid as Western experiences, if not more valid, and has spoken about the legacy of colonialism that has taught us that such a world wasn't real and that it was nothing but juju and superstition.
00:19:07
Speaker
Yeah, so that was that was a new framing for me. um I was not familiar with the idea of Agbenche before reading this book as well. Yeah, me neither. and And I find reading all of Emesi's interviews about this topic really fascinating because I guess it brings a different lens to this viewing multiplicity, that it is ah it can be a natural way of existing rather than ah something that needs to be fixed.
00:19:36
Speaker
um yeah they talk about how they got a lot of reassurance when they view themselves in an igbo context um so this quote i went back home and talked to people and told them that this is the pull that i'm feeling i got a lot of courage from people who said that this book would be helpful because they too were experiencing realities that didn't make sense with the lenses they were given And this is the part where they comment on how many people who have read Freshwater don't understand or connect with this understanding.
00:20:07
Speaker
I think we just like the line we're trying to thread. um So, as he said, numerous articles have continued to critic the book through the lens of mental health, through depression, loneliness, and self-harm that Ada experiences being symptoms of some dissociative identity disorder rather than genuine embodiment.
00:20:27
Speaker
even treating that i think in my brain my parts are in an argument with each other because there's this part of me that's like this makes so much sense like obviously you know colonialism is bad and you know cultural imperialism happens in mental health as well um but then there's the other part of me that's like well yes that you know you can view it from that lens but does that mean the self-harm was okay because there are parts of this story where they were, where Ada was doing real harm to herself.
00:21:05
Speaker
Sorry, I'm trying to remember what Ada's pronoun was themselves. ah To the best of my memory, Ada keeps she, her pronouns throughout the book, but and we'll talk a little bit about Ada's experience with gender and um how that's ah ah the author's experience with gender a little bit in the second half of the book.
00:21:22
Speaker
Yeah. So, yes, I mean, the so The self-harm content, I don't think, I think yeah earlier we spoke about how the goal of quote-unquote treatment for dissociative identity disorder or multiplicity is really about coming and to coming to terms with your experiences and experiencing more of a sense of peace and harmony between inner selves and understanding That doesn't mean ah ignoring the long-term impacts of trauma and just immediately going to, well, you have to accept the way that you are and accept that you have alters.
00:21:58
Speaker
I think there's a lot of work to be done um and I'm sure the character of Ada could benefit from some trauma-informed ah therapy, which unfortunately if she doesn't really get within the book.
00:22:10
Speaker
So ah don't think it's about saying, no, it's fine that you experience self-harm because of your experience of alters, but think Yeah, I think it's just a different way of framing that internal experience in a way that's less deficit focus and less about being sick or broken or something that needs to be fixed. And that's something that the character and the author both seem to find a lot of reassurance in coming to that perspective and coming to that understanding um as the book progresses. I don't want to get into to spoilers too much, though.
00:22:43
Speaker
Yes. Let's chat about how and why multiplicity developed for Ada. So trauma does play a significant role in the development of multiplicity for Ada, at least in the sort of external expression of it, because the book opens with the we perspective, um like the Ogbenje being born when Ada was born as well. Mm-hmm.
00:23:10
Speaker
But as the novel progresses, we learn about significant traumatic events in Ada's childhood and her teenage years. Which interestingly, we didn't find out all the details until later on.
00:23:23
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. so I won't speak about the nature of the trauma specifically, but um we sort of learned to understand the protective role that ah the different alters have for Ada and the idea that the Ogbanji protect Ada, but they also manipulate her at times and sort of have their own agendas and their own priorities, or at least the dominant selves that drive her actions and sort of take take control of her ah body and her physicality um over time.
00:23:54
Speaker
But, yeah, should probably talk about some of Ada's alters specifically But I think before we do that in our part two, let's maybe talk about our overall reviews of the book.
00:24:06
Speaker
um So what did you think? What did you give it out of five?
Priscilla's Review of 'Freshwater'
00:24:09
Speaker
I gave it a four out of five. It wasn't a fun read, so to say, because there there is quite a lot of heavy topics and trauma in it, but I found it really compelling and well written.
00:24:22
Speaker
Embassy style is quite beautiful to read at times. um And I found myself feeling intrigued the whole time. And like it for making me kind of battle my clinical training.
00:24:38
Speaker
So to keep an open mind about the framework that the author is coming from. um Character wise, I thought it was interesting, as I said before, i feel like even though Ada is the main character,
00:24:53
Speaker
She's also not really um the main character. I feel like I know a lot more about Ashikara, for example. um I was also intrigued about how the Okbanje's um framework, I suppose, or existence is sort of integrated with Ada's Christian upbringing and what that looks like in in her altars.
00:25:19
Speaker
I would say, though, I was often confused by the timeline of the story, especially towards the later parts. and There was one chapter when Ada was in different countries um in the same chapter, and I could not follow like how much time has passed or what she was doing in these places. like I lost track of how old she was at times or how much time has passed.
00:25:43
Speaker
you know, after she got to university. knew she was married for three years at one point, but that actually just formed like a really, like a small part of the story.
00:25:54
Speaker
So yeah, I felt like trying to follow the timeline was a bit difficult. Do you think that was intentional by the author? Potentially, I think...
00:26:06
Speaker
can't help but see it from this perspective if you have dissociative amnesia I guess time is it's challenging to keep track of so it makes sense in that sense but yeah I think as a reader that was a bit jarring at times Overall, I found this book really worth reading and really compelling.
00:26:28
Speaker
Yeah.
Elise's Review of 'Freshwater'
00:26:29
Speaker
and What about you, Elise? would give it a 3.5 out of 5. I do think it's a good story and the main... takeaways I got from it I think were really valuable in terms of expanding my understanding of multiplicity beyond my western clinical training which to be honest was already quite limited i had one lecture about dissociative identity disorder specifically and learned some more sort of on the job but and working with peer ambassadors who have lived experience of DID and
00:27:04
Speaker
But i it was an entirely new framing for me and, you know, recognising and challenging some of my assumptions I think was very valuable. um That being said, similar to you, I did get confused in parts and even if that was intentional, it did sort of impact on my reading experience a little bit um and meant that I found the novel a little bit less compelling because I felt like I was playing catch-up a lot of the time.
00:27:28
Speaker
um Another note is I do wish we saw more of Ada or Ada's system and personalities and alters um beyond her relationships. So I did feel like a lot of the story beats were really driven um and influenced by Ada's sexual and romantic relationships, mostly with men as well.
00:27:52
Speaker
And I really wish I'd, there'd been maybe some other things that were happening or some different sort of plot points. And we will speak more about Ada's relationships shortly. Alright, shall we dive into our spoilers?
00:28:05
Speaker
Welcome to part two, where we are going to be talking about some of the more plot points and spoilery things that happen throughout the book. So the first thing we wanted to talk about was Ada's relationships or intimate relationships, including her or one of her alters approaches to sex and power
Ada's Relationships and Power Dynamics
00:28:25
Speaker
as well.
00:28:25
Speaker
So specifically Asagara, who we see quite a dominant alter throughout the book. We've I think we flagged earlier that we see more of Asugara than we see of Ada.
00:28:37
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And Asugara emerges or is born after Ada is sexually assaulted at university. I think this was obviously that is awful in itself, but also Ada was quite religious at this stage and was a virgin. So I think the impact of that sexual assault is twofold in that sense.
00:29:01
Speaker
And Asugara is vengeful and hedonistic and and therefore, you know, when she's in the lead, she causes Ada to engage in hedonistic and dangerous or self-destructive behavior, particularly in her relationships with men.
00:29:19
Speaker
Yeah. So this includes um having unprotected sex, pursuing men in ways that can be quite ah hurtful. So for example, she goes after two brothers, also entering relationships with men who are abusive or men who cheat or just don't treat Ada very well.
00:29:42
Speaker
And yeah, yeah, sort of either pursuing those men or staying in those relationships in a way that, yeah, is quite harmful for Ada and her self-esteem and self-worth as well. Yeah.
00:29:57
Speaker
Yeah. And it notably as well, there is one major relationship that she has throughout the book where Ada or Asagara, I said suppose, is the other woman. um So the man that she's seeing is in a long-term relationship with another woman.
00:30:12
Speaker
um and becomes yeah has this long-term affair. And you know that's not to you know ignore the men's responsibilities or to put any blame in any way Ada or Asagara when it is ultimately these men that are acting in these harmful ways and abusive ways.
00:30:31
Speaker
But there's something about Asagara where she's got this kind of masochistic and sadistic approach to relationships, ah which sometimes it's a power play, sometimes It's just kind of a sense of recklessness um or impulsivity.
00:30:47
Speaker
um Sometimes it's just about pursuing something like for short-term gain without thinking about long-term consequences. It's almost this sense of, know, if Asagari is in control, Ada won't get hurt. So it's almost like this recklessness and this impulsivity is protecting that that core self, Ada, but for more dominant personalities in charge. Or like if I hurt other people, I can't get hurt.
00:31:11
Speaker
And yeah, it's ultimately quite a battle, an internal battle between what Ada wants and what Asagara wants. um And unfortunately, Asagara is in charge a lot of the time.
00:31:24
Speaker
Yeah. And that fits perfectly into what internal family systems calls Asagara. a firefighter part so it's this protective part that keeps one's pain at bay by engaging in the short-term pleasure so it's everything you've described you know if i hurt them first if i use them then i won't get hurt because i get to walk away um i think what i find interesting as well is Ada eventually marries this man, Ewan, who was cheating on his long-term partner with Ada.
00:31:59
Speaker
And in their marriage, I think Asugara kind of steps back, but also won't let go of control to the point that Ada can't be vulnerable with Ewan.
00:32:11
Speaker
And so that marriage falls apart because there's no... vulnerability and self-disclosure at a level that that sort of romantic relationship requires and it almost like it's the self-fulfilling thing because then cigar can say well you know I gave you space and I gave you control and it fell apart anyway so you need me to be in charge at Yeah, I find Asagara really... i have some compassion for her because her ah whole purpose is to look after Ada. She's just going about it in this very, like...
00:32:49
Speaker
have bull in a china shop kind of approach and yeah I think it's kind of you integrates into our our next major theme which is really about the the way that multiplicity affects Ada throughout the book and throughout her life and there are I suppose a couple of different sub themes or topics that we'll touch on So including Ada's experience of her own gender, some disordered eating behaviour, self-harming behaviour, and eventually a suicide attempt as well. And all of these are sort of quite integrated with her experience with her alters too.
00:33:30
Speaker
um and we should probably introduce ah the second major altar that comes um into play as well, who's yeah St Vincent. Saint Vincent is a male alter and he's sort of, I think, portrayed as quite quiet and serene and he doesn't take over in the way that Ashigara does. he When he emerges, Ada begin eda begins dating women and her experience of gender changes, including like wearing more masculine clothing and wearing a binder.
00:34:04
Speaker
And eventually Ada undergoes a breast reduction as well. Emacy has spoken about their experience of being trans in the cut and undergoing gender affirmation surgery.
00:34:15
Speaker
So Emacy said, It's important for an okbanje never to reproduce. If it did, it would contribute to the lineage and when it died, its spirit would join those of the human participating in their reincarnation loop.
00:34:30
Speaker
Removing a uterus is an efficient way to make sure this never happens. And they also talk about how after that first surgery, their depression lifted significantly.
00:34:41
Speaker
They said it was a connection i hadn't made before. How my dysphoria was affecting my mental health. The suicidal time I'd survived just four months before the surgery. Yeah. And I believe Ada um prior to St. Vincent and emerging as an altar.
00:34:56
Speaker
did identify as a woman and, ah sort of didn't experience, you wasn't questioning her gender though, did reference, I believe like liking it when she was mistaken for a boy or something like that as a childhood. mean, it was a little bit fuzzy there, but, um, that it was quite a common experience for her to be mistaken for a boy.
00:35:17
Speaker
Yeah. yeah um But again, it's sort of, it is interesting as this is not, I suppose there's no universal experience, but definitely not a universal experience for trans or non-binary people to necessarily have a dissociative identity or to have this only appear really in adulthood.
00:35:38
Speaker
For but most trans and non-binary people, what I've heard of the dominant narrative is more feeling that way since, early childhood or um and sort of coming to terms with it over time but yeah it's sort of a different perspective on um gender identity that one that i hadn't really come across before um which i thought was like again interesting and sort of challenged some of my assumptions about what it's like to be trans or non-binary another thing to note um is ada's experience with self-harming behavior and suicide so ada
00:36:11
Speaker
in the novel um has a history of self-harm.
Exploring Self-Harm and Healing
00:36:15
Speaker
um This includes ah cutting behaviours which were present since childhood. um Also, there's um some experiences of disordered eating, in particular restricting diet.
00:36:28
Speaker
And much of this is sort of spoken about in the novel as being ah caused by Asagara's influence, even though some of it was present before Asagara emerged. Yeah. Well, in the childhood in in her childhood, I think the the we point of view, the Okbanjees, though I think Asagara technically is an Okbanje as well,
00:36:50
Speaker
oh Anyway, I think they're all Okbanje, like Emesi identifies as an Okbanje, but I think this sort of experience of alters are related to that as well. Yeah, but there's the wee character, I think, so the more amorphous Okbanje that was there throughout childhood Ada's childhood.
00:37:12
Speaker
talks about how blood is like a sacrifice to them and that's something that appeases them as well. So it's not, there's that sort of spiritual perspective on it, I suppose, that it somehow calms the Okbanje and they don't bother Ada as much, perhaps.
00:37:31
Speaker
To try to feel like, feel more in control, perhaps as well. And I think I might just insert in here that there are, what do you call it, this perspective from the Ogbenje that when they talk about they're not supposed to be there, the gate that separates the spirit realm and the human realm wasn't supposed to be open.
00:37:49
Speaker
um And even Ashugara has these experiences with... the brother-sister spirits, um that saying, you know, when are you coming home? You're not supposed to be here. That's my memory of it anyway.
00:38:04
Speaker
That contributes to Asgara pushing Ada towards suicide. That, you know, it's an attempt to free Ada from the pain, her her pain and leave the human realm, but also so the Ogbanje can go home, so to speak.
00:38:19
Speaker
You know, Ada has a suicide attempt, um I believe, in her... early to mid 20s. Again, I'm not 100% sure of the timeline there. Exactly. yeah um Asagara pushes Ada towards a suicide attempt, talks about sort of freeing her from the pain, leaving the human realm.
00:38:37
Speaker
um And in this particular ah suicide attempt. i found that I found this chapter quite interesting. So Ada overdoses, and but does call a friend who eventually escalates this to emergency services.
00:38:53
Speaker
But Asagara then sort of takes control again. And so the embodiment um of Ada's body convinces the doctor that the suicide attempt wasn't serious and that she shouldn't be hospitalized in a psychiatric ward. And um kind of downplays and minimizes, yeah, the seriousness of the suicide attempt as well.
00:39:13
Speaker
Yeah, and I think it's interesting, again, if you think about the purpose of Asugara as Ada's parts or alter, that she's there to protect to Ada, but what that protection looks like is perhaps not what a psychologist would consider helpful.
00:39:37
Speaker
um So there you Ada went to therapy at one point in the book, for example. There must have been moments where Azugara wasn't present in those therapy sessions because Azugara was surprised to hear that Ada has named her.
00:39:52
Speaker
to the therapist and then she made Ada ada quit therapy, essentially. um Because to Ashikara that's not safe. you know If someone knows that Ada has Ashikara, then that person will make her go away and then Ada will be vulnerable and alone.
00:40:10
Speaker
yeah a lack of co-consciousness in that moment. um It's clear that these parts are trying to keep different things from each other as well and they're not um openly communicated and not sharing all memories as well. So in this instance, there's this kind of like clash that's still happening between the different parts, which um yeah is it causing a lot of internal internal distress and internal conflict between the different different parts of different alters too.
00:40:35
Speaker
should probably talk about the end of the novel as well um and how Ada eventually comes to terms with um her experience with Banji.
Finding Peace and Conclusion
00:40:46
Speaker
So the novel, the final chapters of the novel, Ada returns to Nigeria and meets a priest who helps to, i suppose, figuratively break her open in order to put herself back together again.
00:40:59
Speaker
you know, eventually the Ogbanje kind of pull back a bit and Ada feels more freed from them, able to fully occupy her own body. Kind of eventually she's coming, she comes to terms more with the yeah letting go of the struggle and years of negotiating and fighting with the young banjay i'll just read out a little synopsis because i find that it's probably better than me just trying to summarize myself but ada's friend melina someone who recognizes her internal struggles encourages ada to get to know her roots and ada realizes that she's tired after years of negotiating with the old banjay
00:41:35
Speaker
Ada prays to Allah, who helps Ada see that she is a snake, a being that can curve curve in on itself and form a circle, the beginning that is the end. Ada submits to the voice of Allah and the voices of the brother sisters that are encouraging her to return home.
00:41:50
Speaker
As the novel closes, Ada is making her way back to the place of her birth, feeling that she is her others. We are one and we are many. Finally, Ada feels optimistic about her future she embraces both mortal and divine aspects of herself.
00:42:03
Speaker
But we get different interpretations of that ending, at least initially. Yes. So I thought she died the end because I think it's this... again, might just be me missing some parts of it, but it's this um phrase going home.
00:42:20
Speaker
When Ashikara was using that term, it was about suicide, you know, for them to go back, you know, leave the human realm and go home to the, like the spirit realm. So when I saw that that term popping up towards the end, I was like,
00:42:34
Speaker
you know, is this a suicide completion? like Because it seemed to me like Ada was like transcending the human realm and like almost becoming a god. But which I think, yes, that it does happen, but it didn't mean she's leaving the human realm. It's just like she's both a god and a person.
00:42:57
Speaker
Yeah. and And maybe that framing or that phrasing was intentional as well. So drawing back to Asagara's intentions with a suicide attempt and then what it means to go home or to leave the realm. um But at the end of the book, going home is more literal, more like seeking a homeland or seeking a home within yourself as well.
00:43:16
Speaker
But yeah, my my interpretation, you know, we had to look this up, but my interpretation was really about um more of a sense of hope and yeah, inner peace towards the end.
00:43:28
Speaker
ah but I could totally see how you would read it that way. Cause I was also, I was also reading this late at night and I had to double check some of the passages to try to understand what was going on. But I think the main interpretation of this is a sense of hope at the end, rather than yeah it being a tragic ending.
00:43:46
Speaker
Yeah. And I think maybe that's also this binary I have about like embracing the defined aspects of yourself. It's like, yeah, And maybe it's a Western perspective, maybe it's a Catholic perspective, but it sounds like, you know, you die to become like bigger than yourself.
00:44:09
Speaker
I guess that's not the approach in this framework because like embassy themselves, um identifies as an Okbanje but that also means identifying as a god with a capital uh with a little g which is intriguing i would say like I'm not saying that in a way of like I think that's wrong I just think that's so unusual it's certainly unusual for us and for our yeah the cultures that we are living in or have grown up in yeah too but i can I guess it's more of an affirming affirming framework and more of a spiritual framework to understand multiplicity. So if that helps Emezi come to terms with or see themselves in a healthier or more balanced way, then yeah, i can't I can't question it as much as my Western clinical psychology training would like me to.
00:45:01
Speaker
no and yeah that's i guess i'm not questioning it so much as yeah i can see how that you know that framing that i already have would interfere with my understanding of this ending but yeah it did feel optimistic and it felt like ada was happy at the end of the book which is nice all right so should we talk about our favorite moments Yeah, absolutely.
00:45:24
Speaker
Do you have one? Yeah, well, not not a favourite moment because it was like a fun moment by any means, but I did find the chapter where it looked at Ada's self-harm and suicide attempt, and I thought it was quite fascinating how ah Ada's alters impacted on her suicidal thoughts and behaviours, including, yeah, how Asagara stopped Ada from being honest with the staff on the psychiatric ward about the seriousness of the attempt.
00:45:52
Speaker
I thought that was yeah just a very interesting and compelling section of the book. How about you? Well, I really like this section of the conversation between Ishwa and Asugara.
00:46:06
Speaker
Don't ask me to stop for the humans, Asugara spat. Taking from them is the only pleasure we have left. You can't lean on that forever, Ishwa said. Do you have a better plan?
00:46:17
Speaker
Do you know how to make the pain stop? It was only with eyes like ours that we saw Ishwa flinch, just with fractions of his skin as if he was remembering. It doesn't.
00:46:29
Speaker
Azugara spoke for us. Then we won either. and I think that just encapsulates like what Azugara is about. And that actually she also feels the pain.
00:46:41
Speaker
It's just that she is finding like this is how you make it stop. And so I'm not going to just accept living in pain for myself and Ada.
00:46:55
Speaker
And I think Again, i mean, having been raised Catholic, the the presence of Ishwa is really interesting to me, especially all this, like the comparison of him as a spirit and the Okbanje, because there are moments where the Okbanje says, i am like he's had a body before, he's not going to do it again. Ishwa male at the time? A male, yeah. Okay.
00:47:21
Speaker
That's why I read him as Jesus, because there's all these references to Ishua having had a body before and like having gone through pain and and why he wouldn't and like he he won't do anything to answer prayers and things like that.
00:47:37
Speaker
um it's fascinating to read from that perspective. I don't know if that was the intention, but Ada is, you know, portrayed as quite religious.
00:47:48
Speaker
And after she experiences more trauma, kind of struggled a bit more with that faith, I suppose. All right. So i think that brings us to the end of the review.
00:48:02
Speaker
Let's have a quick chat about what to expect online and in the next book.
Resources and Next Book Preview
00:48:09
Speaker
So in our detailed show notes on novelfeelings.com, you will find more about Akwaiki MZ, including their writings about their experiences with Okbanje, more about multiplicity from the Dissociative Initiative, more about DID for anyone interested in learning more about Western conceptualizations of this experience.
00:48:30
Speaker
And you'll also find our book club discussion questions, which we will also post to our Facebook group. For our next book in November, we will be reading Alone With You in the Ether.
00:48:40
Speaker
So in Olivia Blake's Alone With You in the Ether, two people meet in the armory of the Art Institute by chance. Prior to their encounter, he is a doctoral student who manages his destructive thoughts with compulsive calculations about time travel.
00:48:54
Speaker
She is a bipolar counterfeit artist undergoing court-ordered psychotherapy. After their meeting, those things do not change. Everything else, however, is slightly different.
00:49:05
Speaker
Interesting. I don't know much about this book except someone once highly recommended it to me. Are you curious if this is romance or if it's fiction about a romantic relationship?
00:49:16
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Well, that wraps us up for today. If you like us, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Find us online on Instagram and YouTube through Novel underscore Feelings or search Novel Feelings Community on Facebook.
00:49:34
Speaker
If we have entertained you or taught you something, please consider buying us a coffee to show your thanks. All proceeds go towards making the show stronger and more sustainable. Links in the show notes. Thanks so much for listening and we'll see you in November for our final book club episode.
00:49:48
Speaker
Bye. See you then. Bye.
00:49:52
Speaker
Our podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri land, which is home to both of us in Naam, Melbourne. We also acknowledge the role of storytelling in First Nations communities. Always was. Always will be. Aboriginal land.