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Book club: Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow (4.1)
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In this exhilarating novel, two friends—often in love, but never lovers—come together as creative partners in the world of video game design, where success brings them fame, joy, tragedy, duplicity, and, ultimately, a kind of immortality.
Join Priscilla and Elise for a book club discussion on Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow's complex characterisation and video game nostalgia, including an in-depth review of topics like depression, disability and chronic pain, grief, race and class.
- Book club info, detailed show notes, and other links: linktree.com/novel_feelings
- Get a 10% discount through Amplify Bookstore with the code NOVELFEELINGS10: http://amplifybookstore.com/products/novel-feelings-book-club
Content notes for this episode: Mention of characters witnessing a suicide death (minimal detail); mention of war in Gaza; discussion of gun violence, abuse of power in a relationship, and domestic violence.
Our podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri Land, which is home to both of us in Naarm/Melbourne. Always was, always will be Aboriginal Land.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Novel Feelings'
00:00:03
Speaker
I'm Priscilla. And I'm Elise. Welcome to Novel Feelings, where two psychologists take a deep dive into your favorite novels. We are
Season Four Kickoff
00:00:12
Speaker
back. We are kicking off season four with a review of Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow by Gabrielle Seven. But just in case you missed our announcement episode, let's just quickly get you up to speed with what to expect for season four.
Book Club Format
00:00:26
Speaker
This year, we're doing a read-along book club. It's a bit like what we did last year? This year? 2023. Yeah, I have lost all sense of time. It's December.
December Chaos
00:00:37
Speaker
ah December is like the Friday 4pm of the year. No one can do anything. No one has any words or thoughts or brain cells left. So exactly yeah. so So we're doing a Herculean task here. Very true.
Episode Structure: Spoilers and Mental Health Focus
00:00:51
Speaker
i Yes, so we're doing a read-along book club. We'll release an episode per book every two months, expect an in-depth discussion about the mental health content of the book, new diversity, and other psychological themes. Two sections, non-spoilers up first, and then we'll dive right into the spoiler sections in the second half. Exactly.
Partnership with Amplify Bookstore
00:01:13
Speaker
And a huge thank you to our book club partners Amplify Bookstore.
00:01:17
Speaker
So, Amplify is a bookstore dedicated to books by authors who are Black, Indigenous and or people of colour with the aim to diversify your bookshelf. You can purchase all of our book club picks in a convenient bundle or purchase them individually. They're generously offering 10% off to our listeners with the code novelfeelings10. And we would love to hear what you think. If you haven't already joined our Facebook group, and a Novel Feelings Community, we will host discussions about the books.
Community Engagement and Social Media
00:01:44
Speaker
and check out our show notes for all links and disclaimers and keep up to date on our social media through at novel underscore feelings everywhere.
Weekly Ratings: Priscilla and Elise
00:01:52
Speaker
But before we dive into the book review, hey Priscilla, how would you rate your week on a five point scale? I think I would rate it three out of five work from home days. I would say this week has been okay. It feels like it should have been my last week because I had It was quite relaxed, like you know how it feels when you're wrapping things up, but no. I still have one more week of work to go, and last I checked, I had 27 appointments next week. Oh my god. It's so mean. What's your average these days? Well, I'm supposed to only book 17. Oh god. Just ended the year.
00:02:32
Speaker
This is me, like, preemptively making up for my long Christmas and New Year break. but That's fair. And for the listeners, when are you heading off on your holiday? The 28th of December, and then I'm off pretty much until the end of January, so... Yes, it's gonna be a hectic last week of work trying to see everyone and get all the loose ends tied up, but then I will switch off. Excellent. Yes. What about you, Elise? How would you rate your week on a five point scale? I'll also go three out of five.
00:03:07
Speaker
Christmas catch-ups for me. So I feel like everything is very busy with socializing, but also just end of year work tasks. I'm very tired and kind of crawling to the end of the year. I only have a few more working days to go, thankfully. But yeah, ive I keep doing that thing where I say this is a January problem, this is a January problem, but at this rate, all of January is going to be a problem. So I've got a lot of work things on my plate. So yeah, feeling filling the end of year burn at the moment, but otherwise I'm okay.
00:03:38
Speaker
Almost there. Almost there.
About Author Gabrielle Zevin
00:03:41
Speaker
Let's introduce you to the author of the book. Gabrielle Zevin is a New York Times bestselling novelist whose books have been translated into 40 languages. Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow is her 10th novel. Gabrielle began her writing career at age 14 as a music critic and has occasionally written criticism for the New York Times NPR. She's also the screenwriter of conversations with other women. And let us tell you a little bit about tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow. Shall we just start calling it T3 or something like that? Because I feel like we'll stumble over ourselves if we keep trying to say that on the whole list. T3. Moving forward, yes.
Summary of 'Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow'
00:04:19
Speaker
Alright, so this is the story of Sam and Sadie. It's not a romance, but it is about love. When Sam catches sight of Sadie at a crowded train station one winter morning, he is catapulted back to the brief time they spent playing together as children. Their unique spark is instantly reignited.
00:04:39
Speaker
What comes next is a story of friendship and rivalry, fame and creativity, betrayal and tragedy, perfect worlds and imperfect ones, and ultimately our need to connect to be loved and to
Choosing the Book
00:04:53
Speaker
love. all right so Why did we choose this book Elise? This is probably one of my picks. um So this is a really popular book. It only came out two years ago, but it's done extremely well. It's been Gabrielle Zevin's bestselling novel. It's particularly nostalgic for gamers, particularly those that were part of gaming culture in the 90s and early 2000s. I read this probably a year and a half or maybe almost two years ago around the time of release and I've been kind of desperate to talk about it. I had a really strong emotional reaction to this book when I first read it and when I learnt it was part of Amplify's catalogue and sort of thought you know it might have some good themes for us to discuss on the pod.
Elise's Encounter with Zevin
00:05:38
Speaker
i mean I'll also mention here that I briefly met Gabrielle Zevin at a book event as part of the Melbourne Writers Festival at a signing, so it's not like it was you know a long conversation or anything. But continuing the theme of awkward interactions with authors at signings.
00:05:55
Speaker
who flashback to our Patrick Ness episode where we talked about a monstical in season two. The conversation went something like this. I told her, I really love this book. um I'm actually a psychologist and I thought this book really captured psychological themes well and I think you're really good at writing the impacts of trauma on characters. Something along those lines. And she said, you know, there's one of you at every signing. And I'm like,
00:06:25
Speaker
all right All right. Okay. All right. So I'm not that unique. My unique perspective. Yeah, she really just brought me right down to earth. um and Like, okay, i yep, sure. yeah um And then, you know, we had to like a little bit more than that, but that kind of just stuck with me of like, oh, the authors have really heard it all before, haven't they? Like, I'm i'm not offering anything new here. Maybe I should just stick to the, you know, I'm a big fan of your work. Enjoyed your talk kind of the conversation. Just like we're at least standing there. Love your work. Thank you.
00:06:57
Speaker
Yeah, yep yeah so one day I'll meet an author and it won't be awkward, maybe. There's nothing like a one sentence comment from an author to kind of, you know, stab you in the heart, deflate your ego, your purpose, just ah just a little bit.
00:07:16
Speaker
Anyway, enough about me. What are we covering today?
Themes and Controversies
00:07:21
Speaker
We're covering um depression, disability, gun violence a little bit, grief and domestic violence. o ah We would also quickly note that there's a mention of characters witnessing suicide, but we don't discuss this in detail. And there are other content notes that you can find in our show notes. Yeah.
00:07:44
Speaker
Um, and we did want to just flag a bit of a note on the author before we jump into the review today. So it was only after choosing the book for our book club that we learned about a few controversies surrounding Gabrielle Zevin. So we wanted to acknowledge them explicitly before we just dive into the review. The first controversy reacts to accusations of plagiarism. So we understand that one of the fictional games featured in the book.
00:08:09
Speaker
ah called Solution, was inspired by a real-life game called Train created by Brenda Romero in 2009. Both games are themed around players being complicit in the Holocaust. ah While Solution is not a direct copy of this game, and it's also a fictional game that's embedded in a fictional novel,
00:08:29
Speaker
Zevan has acknowledged in interviews that she was inspired by the game, yet she does not credit Ramiro at all, which I guess is quite disappointing. Fictional authors don't always credit all of their sources of inspiration. However, Zevan does credit various video game developers in her acknowledgement, so it's you know it doesn't sit very well that she left out this particular acknowledgement. So we just wanted to acknowledge that um as one of the controversies.
00:08:56
Speaker
The second controversy relates to claims that Zevin, who has Korean and Jewish ancestry, is a Zionist, so that is holds Jewish nationalist beliefs and is pro-Israel and anti-Palestine.
00:09:12
Speaker
So from what we can find, we know that Zeddin has spoken in front of an organization that has expressed Zionist views, but to the best of our knowledge, she has not personally expressed these views herself, nor has she spoken against as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. However, some people are choosing not to read or promote her works due to this suspicion, which I think given what's happening in Gaza is understandable. Yeah, it is. So we are going ahead with a review today, and we are focusing on the book itself rather than further speculating about Zevon's personal beliefs or motivations. However, we acknowledge that it is impossible to do this purely in a vacuum.
Non-Spoiler Review Begins
00:09:56
Speaker
We do welcome a constructive discussion around this topic, and we want to emphasize that we both support a ceasefire in Palestine
00:10:05
Speaker
So shall we get started with part one, which is our non-spoiler discussion and overall thoughts? Let's do it.
Sam and Sadie's Childhood Bond
00:10:13
Speaker
The main characters of T3 are Sam Mazer and Sadie Green. These two characters meet in a hospital setting. Sam is there after a quite life-changing injury caused by a car accident. um Sadie is there because her older sister is undergoing chemotherapy. They happen to come across each other in a kind of gaming, children-friendly space, start playing games together.
00:10:39
Speaker
And it's the first time that Sam speaks properly since the accident as well um as a result of their friendship. So I really loved these scenes between the two of them as children. I thought it was very sweet to see how their relationship developed and how they bonded over video games in particular, I think Super Mario.
00:11:00
Speaker
um yeah sort of the more arcadey older versions of Mario. However, their friendship does end up having a bit of a foundation of mistrust because we learned that Sadie starts logging the hours she spends with Sam as an act of community service ahead of her Bucknitzer. And although she truly does value him as a friendship, she doesn't quite understand that friendship. him You can't conflate friendship and community service. So when Sam finds out about this,
00:11:28
Speaker
Understandably, he's devastated and filled with rage at Sadie, and there's a massive rift in their friendship, and they don't rekindle until university where they happen to stumble across each other
University Reunion
00:11:41
Speaker
once again. As the summary says, they run across each other in a train station?
00:11:47
Speaker
Honestly, a run, but Sam pretty much like yelled her name across the station to try and get her attention. With an old in-joke as well, Sadie Green, you have died of dysentery, which is a reference to, I believe, an old Oregon Trail game that Sadie used to play with her sister. Did you ever play that game? No, I hadn't heard of it before this book, actually. Had you played it?
00:12:10
Speaker
No, I have I have heard of it before, but I've never played it. So yeah, there's a lot of titles in this book that I have heard of before, but I've never played. They talk after that joke and then Sadie gives Sam the game that she was no not not developing, but she had created for her class in MIT, which is the solution game. You know, after playing that Sam I was going to use the word obsessed, but I think that's not quite the right word. like He decided that he wanted to make a game with her. Sam and his roommate, Marks, play the game and find it brilliant. As we mentioned at the start of the episode, this is a game that is centered around the Holocaust.
00:12:57
Speaker
so ah briefly.
Game Development and Success
00:13:00
Speaker
I suppose um pla the players are assembling widgets as part of the game, and they can sort of exchange tokens or something within the game to learn more about the factory that they're working in. But if they don't, they eventually learn that they're being complicit in the Holocaust. Sam has some constructive feedback about the game, but generally thinks the idea is quite brilliant. Their friendship, I suppose, rekindles, and they decide to start working on a game together, which turns into a game called Ichigo,
00:13:29
Speaker
um which becomes extremely successful in a pop culture phenomenon over time. So they work extremely hard over over a number of months, um including with Marx, Sam's roommate. Marx is probably my favourite character in the whole book. He's just so pure. I know, he's such a sweetheart.
00:13:49
Speaker
Very likeable character and he's kind of a moral compass and a good friend to both of them, despite I suppose not often being valued by Sam in particular.
The Role of Video Games
00:13:59
Speaker
I'd say, but more of that in the spoilers section. yeah it's just like He does get called an NPC at times, he's not really a point of view character in the same way that the others are.
00:14:08
Speaker
no But he's an important leg of the tripod. so yeah yeah ah i still I'm curious why his name marks because the first like I think I said to you in a message the first few times he was mentioned, I was like, what has Karl Marx got to do with this story? what he because i've never heard an explanation I had never heard that name in any other context, but Karl Marx. Anyway, throughout the book, video games are of course really integral to their friendship between Sam and Sadie. So both as their business, you know after the success of Ichigo, they alongside Marx create a company called Unfair Games which
00:14:50
Speaker
sort of develops into a full video game company and is very successful, but also you know it's the foundation of their friendship, a source of bonding, yeah a source of coping for both of them at various points in the book. For example, Sam, who is affected by chronic pain and has a physical disability, which is a consequence of the car accident he was in at the child, he kind of uses games as a bit of an escape. so There's a quote from Sam,
00:15:16
Speaker
Sometimes I would be in so much pain, the only thing that kept me from wanting to die was the fact that I could leave my body and be in a body that worked perfectly for a while. Better than perfectly actually, with a set of problems that were not my own.
00:15:28
Speaker
I think we see this later in the book as well that another character escapes into a video game, but we'll chat about that in the spoiler section. yeah Yeah. And at times video games are also the only thing that's holding their friendship together. So their friendship and the two of them, they sort of, you know, come together and deviate at various times.
00:15:47
Speaker
as the novel progresses in terms of how close they are, how much they trust each other. They have this sort of almost frenemy-like relationship at times. um And part of that, I think, is because of the early mistrust. There's Sadie's betrayal of Sam sort of right at the outset of their friendship. There's also issues that Sadie has with Sam as the book as the book progresses, which we'll touch on later. um But at times, it's literally the only thing that kind of keeps them in each other's orbit is the role of video games.
00:16:16
Speaker
yeah What did you think of their friendship overall? I can see why it's called a love story but not a romance because it's such a unique sort of relationship where I don't think if they didn't share that sort of love for video games or that what do you call it creative synergy I suppose then it's almost like maybe their lives would not be parallel at all.
00:16:39
Speaker
h But is this a spoiler to quote Sadie to say, was it lovers are common, but real creative collaborations are rare? And I thought that was really, and really interesting because you can see that they need each other in various ways across their lives, but it's a very strange, not strange, but... unique kind of relationship. Yeah, that's very true. How did you find that that friendship? Well, I found them both infuriating as individuals at times, probably Sam more so than Sadie. But I just really love stories about platonic friendships that have complications. So I don't
00:17:23
Speaker
Well, I guess we don't see a lot of it compared to stories about romantic relationships. And maybe that's just the type of fiction that I've come across. But I really like stories where we see how friendships evolve over time and how friendships can be resilient even after going through really tough times, including each person maybe not being the best friend or having unpleasant traits and sort of working and learning and the role of forgiveness as well, I think is really important. and So that was something I really enjoyed seeing. And it is quite an epic story. Like if this was a love story, I think we'd describe it as a kind of epic romance. But it's not. It's a story of friendship, which I really appreciated.
00:18:03
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I forgot in a while reading it that it actually spans 30 years. Yeah, it's kind of a long time, isn't it? Half someone's lifetime, more, you know. I enjoyed watching them both grow as individuals and how their friendships stumble and grow along with them as well.
00:18:24
Speaker
Let's also touch on Sam's experience of physical disability, including the role of ah trauma in his life and chronic pain. ah sam Sam is an asshole at times. Let's acknowledge that. yeah But he's also been through a lot
Sam's Traumatic Past
00:18:39
Speaker
of shit. yeah Flashing back, we learn that Sam's mother was an actress living in New York. One day, her and child Sam, I think he was maybe 10 or so at the time, they witnessed a confronting suicide death of a woman who happens to share the name of Sam's mother, Anna Lee.
00:19:01
Speaker
I won't go into details about the death itself. It is described on the page um in terms of like methodology. But obviously that's a really horrible thing for them to witness. um And this is a bit of a catalyst for Sam's mother to move the two of them to California with the promise that quote, nothing bad will happen to us again, which is a highly foreshadowing line, of course. But then tragedy strikes, of course. Yes, tragically, Anna dies in a car accident with Sam in the passenger seat. And that's the accident that leaves Sam with significant leg foot injury. yeah ay Yeah, so the food injury leads to a significant number of surgery in the months after the car crash, but then, ongoing many complications including chronic pain, limited movement into adulthood, and eventually amputation. And of course, I think Sam deals with a lot of grief over the loss of her mother.
00:20:07
Speaker
after which point he was taken into care by his grandparents, who are very lovely by all accounts, but still, you know it's a traumatic life event. And Sam clearly has complicated feelings about his disability. Throughout the novel, we see him neglecting to use his cane, hiding the extent of his foot injury from other people. So hiding the pain that he's in as well as, I suppose, that seriousness of the ongoing complications. Yeah, pushing through really awful pain to get through the day. Marx is, by all accounts, one of his best friends, or one of his closest friends, and Marx didn't know what happened for many years. It's interesting, he he also seems to take risks
00:21:01
Speaker
with his ability. So Sadie would say things like, are you sure you can you know walk that far and be okay? Or the roads are icy. And then he'd be like, yeah, it's fine. And then hurts himself. I think you maybe Sam has internalized a lot of shame over his injury and believes that you know the best way to go about his life is to push through or pretend that it doesn't exist.
Struggles with Disability
00:21:28
Speaker
you know his unwillingness to use his cane, for example, which is a mobility device that would help him. you know Part of that might be due to the stigma of disability in society, particularly at the time. I can't remember the exact dates that all of this was happening, but this would have been, I suppose, in the 90s, early 2000s, that he was first experienced in these complications. Unwillingness to get the amputation as well. I don't know. He's just a boy that has like a really high pain threshold, but he's kind of forced to by his physical injury and also the trauma that he's been through. um And I think it's a big thing for a lot of the characters in the books is really not talking about what they're experiencing, not disclosing the extent of their trauma and sort of internalizing things and keeping a lot of things secret. Absolutely. And there's this layer of class, I suppose, with it as well, because Sam just, you know, for the first part of the book,
00:22:20
Speaker
He's poor. He can't afford medical care for his pain. So I think there were times where he would just push on even though the foot was bleeding. Yeah. um And Marx would look at it. And actually, I can't remember if I'm making this up or if it's in the book. But you know, someone like Marx, who is wealthy, has the resources.
00:22:41
Speaker
we just the insurances and so on Yeah, we just go to hospital and get that looked at, but Sam would not. And I do wonder if part of it is because he lives in the US and he can't afford healthcare. Class is quite a overarching. Well, um and it might not be the most, I suppose, overt theme in the book, but it's definitely something that affects the characters. This is kind of an ongoing tension at times throughout the book.
00:23:07
Speaker
Yeah.
Race and Class Intersections
00:23:08
Speaker
And there's this intersection of racial identity and class that each of our three main characters experience. So Sam is curion half Korean, half Jewish. Sadie is Jewish slash white American. I think we want to describe it that way. Yeah. And Marx is Japanese slash white American as well. Sam, as we said, was raised by his grandparents after his mother's death and would be considered working class while Sadie and Marx came for money. And I think between Sam and Marx, that's quite obvious. They become roommate and Marx sort of makes all these decisions that are nothing to him really financially. And so they both move into this bigger apartment and Marx essentially covers Sam's rent. Or he would notice that Sam doesn't have a coat and he would just buy a new one or and give Sam his old one.
00:24:03
Speaker
things like that. Which I suspect is one of the reasons why this ah you know Sam has this kind of resentment towards Marx at various points throughout the book, but I think that's maybe one of the contributing factors.
00:24:17
Speaker
Yeah, and I suppose in comparison to Sam, Mark seems to have it easy. He's very, you know, handsome. He's handsome. Just, well, describe as handsome. We'll take the books to work for it. Yeah. Handsome, charming, confident. Yeah. Loved by a lot of people. Yeah. Yeah. Where I suppose Sam is spiky in comparison to Mark's. But even between Sam and Sadie, when they were children, there were comments about how Sadie's from the rich side of town and That's why she was doing charity work, you know, and Sam was her charity. Should we also talk about Sam's cultural appropriation speech? Yes. Yeah. So for context, um there's a section of the book where Sam is promoting Ichigo. So he'd only be in his, I guess, early twenties at this
Cultural Appropriation Discussion
00:25:08
Speaker
time point. He's quite young, but he becomes a bit of a global sensation, becomes quite well known as doing the interview circuit, the promotional circuit, as the game is quite successful.
00:25:17
Speaker
And Ichigo is ah a game that is inspired by many Japanese elements. The main character, Ichigo, is a young boy. I think he's maybe four years old or so.
00:25:31
Speaker
um becomess yeah i think initially they were non-binary and then becomes a young boy. yeah yeah And he's Japanese. A match of the artwork is inspired by, I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing this correctly, but Hokusai and The Wave being his most famous work, which is also featured on the cover of Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow. And there's a point in an interview where you know just a random interviewer character basically asks him about his thoughts on cultural appropriation. I'll read out Sam's reply, um because I think it's important to sort of present this in context. So just bear with me, it's a little bit of a longer quote. The alternative to appropriation is a world in which artists only reference their own cultures. And the interviewer says that's that's an oversimplification of the issue. And Sam says, the alternative to appropriation is a world where white European people make art about white European people
00:26:28
Speaker
with only white European references in it. Swap African or Asian or Latin or whatever culture you want for European. A world where everyone is blind and deaf to any culture or experience that is not their own. I hate that world, don't you? I'm terrified of that world, and I don't want to live in that world. And as a mixed race person, I literally don't exist in it.
00:26:47
Speaker
My dad, who I barely knew, was Jewish. My mum was an American-born Korean. I was raised by Korean immigrant grandparents in Koreatown, Los Angeles. And as any mixed-race person will tell you, to be half of two things is to be whole of nothing. And by the way, I don't know or have a particularly rich understanding of the references of Jewish, Jewishness or Korean-ness, because I happen to be those things. But if it should go had been fucking Korean, it wouldn't be a problem for you, I guess.
00:27:13
Speaker
We had some mixed responses to this speech. And I'll just note that cultural appropriation isn't an overarching theme in this book. no However, I did want to touch on our response to this.
00:27:26
Speaker
Yeah, because this was one of the points of the book where we were I'm as a tune, I was like, yeah, we need to talk about this. Yeah. Yeah. And this is something that stuck with me the first time I read it as well. Yeah. I think that line to be, you know, to be half of two things is to be whole of nothing is quite striking. um I'm not biracial, but I'm in a diaspora. And that line gets to that feeling of like, well,
00:27:52
Speaker
you're not this and you're not that because you're something different entirely and so where do you fit so that's a lovely that's a lovely line and I think it's worth noting that seven herself is biracial, so that probably comes from a real place. Yeah, absolutely. But the rest of that speech. Yeah. Yeah. Look, I do. I think we both agree with some of the points being raised. You know, for example, being from one race or culture doesn't automatically make you an expert in that race or culture. And it is important to try to understand and learn about other cultures and to expose yourself to art.
00:28:25
Speaker
and media from cultures beyond your own. But I think the overarching sentiment is where it doesn't quite sit very well with us. No, it's just it oversimplifies what cultural appropriation is and what harm it does, and how it ties into colonialism and all that. i think It's statements like this that you go like, is this the character or is this the author? And yeah, because it's just like left there and you know.
00:28:55
Speaker
it's It's like Sam gets the final word in this interview and you're like, well, that should be challenged a bit more, but yeah maybe this is not this the medium medium for it. Yeah. And I guess we're not you know saying that we think the game created within the book, Ichigo, is yeah offensive or culturally appropriative or culturally appreciative. like We know the characters did there quite a bit of research and going into it, but you know It doesn't look like they were consulting with Japanese video game creators or artists or anything like that either. us so yeah whether Whether or not that particular game is appropriative is, I suppose, not my major concern. My major concern is i guess the message that's coming from this speech. yeah
00:29:41
Speaker
Yeah, anyway. Yes, that's just what something I think that was interesting. Definitely interesting. But ah let's pivot and maybe you just talk about Sadie a little bit more, including her experiences with depression and her experience of being in a toxic relationship.
Sadie's Toxic Relationship
00:29:58
Speaker
um yeah So Sadie is of course the other main character in this book. There's a another main character ah mainish side character called Dove, I believe that's how his name was pronounced in the audio book. So um I think there's a couple of ways to pronounce that name, but I think that's correct in this instance. Dove is Sadie's teacher, professor, I guess. Lecturer, yeah. Lecturer at MIT in the video game development course that she's taking. um And he's quite a well-known, experienced
00:30:33
Speaker
powerful video game developer, he's quite successful, um he's got a famous game or two under his belt. yeah And Dov has, I suppose, at best a unique approach to teaching, at worst highly inappropriate.
00:30:54
Speaker
um form of teaching. yeah i He's very critical um and harsh towards the students. He's also just very i guess colloquial and sweary with them. um He you know talks about topics in his classes that I don't think are appropriate to be talking about.
00:31:11
Speaker
Very much the sort of guy who would say, you're not like other girls. Yes, yeah absolutely. And that's kind of the approach that he takes with Sadie as well. yeah So there's only, you know, just I guess in terms of the power differential as well, Dove is about, I think maybe 10 years older, yeah maybe late 20s at the time when Sadie's in her early 20s. Look, basically he kind of takes Sadie under his wing after she presents solution, which he thinks is quite brilliant and dark. um And then the abuse of power eventually leads to them having a college teacher slash student relationship. Gross. Which, how would you describe this relationship at the start? It's like it's an affair as well. So he's married. married be up Yeah, with a kid. I can see how Sadie would fall into it. Like it's very
00:32:01
Speaker
exciting when someone is bettering as well someone that powerful to be interested in you yes absolutely and he's not going after her for her looks as well like he's going after her for her brain and you know her her skills which she also values very much so being noticed in that way is quite intoxicating yeah being one of the only two women in that class as well, so feeling like singled out and um special compared to the others. So I can see why he might target her and why she might fall for him. so it But it starts off not great, and then they kind of break up and get back together, and eventually the relationship also turns sad and masochistic. We're not anti-BDSM, we're not anti-Hing.
00:32:50
Speaker
But it's definitely portrayed in a way where it's not, I suppose, always consensual. So Dov is definitely pushing the lines of consent and at times acting in a way that is definitely ah you know beyond what she has consented to. So yeah, it is more of like a domestic violence framing. Yeah, and add a layer to this that Dov became a producer on Ichigo.
00:33:16
Speaker
Yup. So then there's that financial, I think he contributed financially slash he's a mentor on in their company, which adds that power imbalance as well. Yep. And he lets them use the...
00:33:31
Speaker
Ulysses' engine, which is integral to the development of the game too. Sadie's professional success becomes dependent on Dov's contribution and his willingness to support the project as well, which adds another layer to the power imbalance.
00:33:46
Speaker
me It's just all gross. Anyway, they did break up eventually. Or the first time they broke up, yes. They broke up a few times, but the first time they broke up, Sadie falls into a period of depression. We don't see this from her perspective. We see it from Sam's.
Support Through Depression
00:34:05
Speaker
She's portrayed as having low energy, ah no motivation, spending all day in bed, not eating.
00:34:13
Speaker
not doing any of the things that she would normally do. Not showering, not looking after herself really. Not showing up to class as well. I'll just flag, one of the things I really did like about Sam's character is his perseverance in trying, at least, to get Sadie out of depressive periods by being there and being persistent, even if Sadie's pushing him away and he feels uncomfortable by doing so. At first, this is the first time that she's experiencing this period of depression and that they haven't really rekindled their friendship yet. Is that Marx's suggestion? I quite like this analogy where he recommended treating her like a Tamagotchi.
00:34:54
Speaker
to keep going around to her apartment, to get her to shower, to talk, to go for a walk, to keep checking in on her, um even if she's resistant at first to just be there. And then if that doesn't work, he suggested.
00:35:05
Speaker
telling you know encouraging her to get professional help, um and if that didn't work, telling her parents. so quiet you know It might have been Mark's suggestion, but it was Sam that enacted the plan. yeah and We'll touch on this in the spoiler section as well, but this happens again to a degree later in the book as well, where Sam is quite integral towards Sadie's wellbeing, but in quite a different way.
00:35:26
Speaker
yeah So I think that covers some of the main themes of the book. But before we go into the spoilers, let's cover our overall reviews of the book or our overall impressions. So what did you think? Overall, I actually quite like this book. Probably not as much as you do, but spoilers.
00:35:45
Speaker
I have this thing about really hype books where I start from a position of skepticism. I immediately don't trust that it's as good as everyone. I trust your opinion and your hype, but it's like when a book becomes good. But we know we overlap, right? Yes. When a book is this popular, I'm like, what's marketing and what's the actual quality of the book sort of thing?
00:36:09
Speaker
That was the position I started from when I started reading this. But I found the book really compelling and really easy to read. And there are moments in it that made me stop and think about what's going on. I also really liked the complexity of the characters. As much as I struggle with Sam, I think you're meant to struggle with Sam.
00:36:29
Speaker
So I did wonder if one particular revelation about him and what he might have done to Sadie put me entirely offside with him and then I just couldn't recover from it. Yeah, well neither could Sadie. We'll talk about that coming. yeah But it's this weird thing where I'm like, in my head, I really enjoyed it, but I didn't feel well, for most of it, I felt sort of an emotional distance between myself and the characters. And I still can't quite can' quitet describe why it may have to do with this prose, because it sort of feels I don't know what you would call it, but it's a particular point of view where it's like the narrative voice is the author's voice.
00:37:09
Speaker
o because they would make references to be like but we'll see this down the track you know that sort of thing and it's not wearing the character's head but like being narrated by someone else yeah i think like an omnipotent third person narration or something like that i can't remember exactly what it's called Yeah, potentially. And I think maybe that's part of the distance with it. um I read Gabrielle Seven's Young Jane Young, and I felt sort of the same, that I really enjoyed the book, but I was never connected, I was never fully connected with the character. So maybe it's just the writing, and it's just not quite for me. Or, you know, it nothing wrong with that. yeah Yeah, it is for me, like, you know, i'm I'm saying this as if I'm about to write it really badly.
00:38:00
Speaker
I'm rating it 3.5, which to me, average is 2.5, so this is like well above average. Anyway, what about you? Tell us more about yellow for it.
00:38:13
Speaker
yeah So I can't deny my emotional reaction to this book. um I love the imperfect characters, the nostalgia, like I'm not, I would never call myself a gamer, quote unquote, but I have played many of the games that are referenced in this book, or at least in a casual way. And I just loved the flashback side of things and the nostalgia. um As I flagged before, I really like the focus on friendship and platonic friendships and also just the way that the book uses fantasy worlds to illustrate issues with relationships, wellbeing and so on. So my only criticisms are I did feel it's a bit
00:38:53
Speaker
slow paced and I feel that the storytelling could have been a bit tighter. And part of that is just my reading preferences changing as I'm getting older. I'm a little bit less patient with longer winded books these days. And also, I don't agree with all of the time jump choices. So there are moments that are kind of skipped over that I really wish were on the page. I do think it works overall, but um I do wonder if maybe that would have been more of an emotional punch at times if we had seen certain scenes that are just kind of referenced back.
00:39:23
Speaker
yeah But I'm still going to give it a 4.5 out of 5 because I can't deny I really loved it. So yeah, as a piece of art and a piece of fictional work, I think it just scratches my brain in a good way. Wonderful. And it's not a mental health book, like it's not focused on a particular mental health theme, but I do believe that The ones that are portrayed, the ones that we've discussed are well-written. I think they're just really good characters, like really good characterization. And especially considering they are third person point of view as well, like we have such a good insight into what makes them tick, the experiences that have shaped them, the thought processes and the way that they see the world as well. I just think it's really well done. Yeah, absolutely. But yeah, I do think they could have all benefited from therapy.
00:40:18
Speaker
All right, shall we move on to spoilers?
00:40:21
Speaker
So we touched earlier on the foundations of Sam and Sadie's friendship, but we did want to talk about some time points where they their friendship deteriorates or struggles.
Collaboration Challenges
00:40:33
Speaker
So there is one particular time point where the characters are developing Ichigo and they're quite young and they don't really have a lot of resources yet, the company hasn't been developed fully, and they're thinking about gaming engines and I don't really understand what a gaming engine is, but it is important to the development of the game.
00:40:51
Speaker
Sam basically pushes for them to approach Dove for the Ulysses gaming engine. However, through various circumstances eventually Sadie learns that Sam must have actually ah known that she had a history with Dove rather than being as far as innocent to their relationship. And this is really shocking for her and she doesn't say anything to him at the time but it definitely drives a wedge between them and this extreme resentment.
00:41:18
Speaker
From memory, after approaching Dov for Ulysses, that was the point where Sadie and Dov got together a second time. And then that kind of catalyzed the particularly unhealthy part of the relationship where she was. And that really messed her up, understandably. That really yeah had a massive effect on her.
00:41:38
Speaker
Yeah, and I suppose it feels to her that Sam has pushed her into this relationship with some knowledge that they had had a history. o That's her perspective of it anyway. um And I'll just quote here in a bit of a paraphrased and tightened way. She says, it was absolutely a betrayal. She let herself think Sam was her friend, but Sam was no one's friend. She had made excuses for him.
00:42:04
Speaker
his absentee father, the death of his mother, his injury, his poverty. What if her mistake had been in imbuing Sam with emotions and sentiments that he was incapable of feeling? So it really damages how she sees Sam to learn about this. Yeah, and I suppose I pondered that question of hers for a bit like what's trauma for Sam and what's just his personality? Where do you draw the distinction between the impacts of trauma and someone's I guess, moral compass in a way. He seems to be very, I don't know the right word, not rational, girl-oriented. He's not socially motivated, like he doesn't do things to please people. He does things because you know it makes sense to him.
00:42:51
Speaker
Which could be trauma. you know yeah we could It would make sense that he has had to toughen up and develop tough skin, I suppose, to survive significant emotional and physical pain. But I don't know. I guess there's limited hints about that from Sam's perspective. that he just yeah and A lot of that is to say he's speculating about his motivations and yeah Yeah, like from his perspective, it's often just like, well, we have to go and get things done. So it could be both. It could be both drama and just his personality. Yeah. And then this all becomes confounded by the fact that Sam kind of becomes the face of Ichigo, which is their first successful game and takes a lot of credit further leads to this rift in their friendship, which already had that shaky foundation we talked about earlier.
00:43:39
Speaker
And this is illustrated by their second game after Ichigo and Ichigo II, which is called Both Sides, which is kind of like this jewel dual world game where there's like a real side and a fantasy side and it switches between the two perspectives.
00:43:55
Speaker
um and Sam and Sadie work separately on the two different parts of the game, so Sam works on the real side in this like Maple World town, and Sadie works on the fantasy side, which is Maya's Landing I think, which is a fantasy setting. Even though they might kind of work separately, the whole thing just doesn't really work together and the game ends up being quite criticized, which I thought was You know, a nice illustration of how their friendship separates and they're not really working in the same. Sadie didn't want to do each e go-to, but it made commercial sense. And then Sadie pushed for this game to happen and then it tanked. And I think at some point Sam was like, well, you don't know what you're talking about or something to that along those lines. Yeah. Yeah. Well, in any case, like the whole, the idea of the game was Sadie's, right? and
00:44:44
Speaker
She took it really personally when the game didn't do very well. So even though part of the game ended up developing into quite a successful online role-playing game, she took the hit really hard. And again, this feeds into the idea that Sam takes credit for the good sides of the work and she gets criticized for the things that don't work out so well.
00:45:05
Speaker
Yeah, and I think I can really see both sides of that argument in that like Sadie didn't want to do the promotional work attached to Ichigo and because of her resentment perhaps couldn't see that promotional work is hard work.
00:45:22
Speaker
But then Sam also didn't do enough to actively give Sadie the credit that she deserved either. Yeah, it's not fully his fault that the media sort of latched onto him as the face of unfair games as well. yeah Because I think what we haven't mentioned is that Ichigo's gate is kind of based on Sam's, and then because Ichigo's coded to be Japanese, and Sam is half Asian.
00:45:51
Speaker
Yeah, a lot of the media sort of see humor as being Ichigo. Yeah, and then because Sadie doesn't want to be public facing, it sort of exacerbates that cycle as well. But yeah, again, Sam could just actively bring up her name a lot more. Yep.
Personal Revelations
00:46:08
Speaker
And a couple of other points. So, you know, as the novel progresses, they do spend a lot of time together, but obviously as they're working together, the friendship is kind of simultaneously deep and shallow, so they never have oh They rarely have quite like real in-depth conversations, but they share so much of their lives together that they can like predict what the next person is going to say and that kind of thing. What is an in-depth friendship versus just a working relationship. and We also eventually learned that a contributing factor to Sadie's depression was having an abortion that she never told anyone about.
00:46:46
Speaker
um Until she told Sam one day, many, many years later. Yeah, so that doesn't come up for a very, very long time. So again, you know, Sadie, like Sam, keeps a lot of things to herself and they don't air their grievances and You know, one of the reasons why Sadie, why it was such a bad idea for her to get back together with Dov was because of the abortion, which she didn't tell Dov about. And, yeah you know, Sam wasn't to know that when you kind of pushed her in this pathway, which ended up getting her back together with him as well. I don't know if things would have been different if they'd been more open with each other. Well, and then, at some, can't remember what point, but Sadie and Martz got together.
00:47:29
Speaker
Yeah, I believe it's about halfway through the book where Sadie and Marx are on a business trip and get together for the first time. And they don't tell anyone for a while, but Sam eventually picks it up after he notices, I guess, like an intimate gesture from like between them at an office party.
00:47:47
Speaker
And this leads to a lot of jealousy from Sam. I don't think he was really into Sadie that way previously, but it's something about that like seeing Sadie with somebody else, seeing Sadie with Marx, I should say. like I don't know if it would have been the case if she'd just been dating someone random. But something about seeing them together, which I guess just ignites Sam to feel that he does actually have feelings for Sadie and it's this real je jealousy that comes on board. So even though their friendship is ultimately platonic, they never get together. um yeah Which I can say because we're in spoiler section. yeah yeah There is definitely this time point where he does have feelings for her, or at least he believes he does because she's been taken away by his best friend.
00:48:32
Speaker
It almost feels like she thinks they're meant to be together. yeah And so he thinks he has feelings for her that way, but ultimately... Maybe he does, and then it was just never returned. um It's a bit of like, she's my best friend and you can't have her. yeah Because essentially Sam got very drunk after he found out and said to Marks, you know, you're an NPC, you don't matter, or you're not supposed to matter. and And for those who are not gamers, I should mention an NPC means non-playable character. So it's kind of, it's quite a dismissive thing to call somebody because it's like you're just a side character that doesn't matter, that's not fully formed.
00:49:11
Speaker
Which is a terrible thing to say to someone who's basically, whether Sam lack it or not, Marx has given him a lot of support over the years, essentially given him housing for many years. I clearly loves him as well, you know, as a close friend or almost like a brother at times too. yeah And as an integral part of their company, like he's I don't remember what exactly what his role is. It was probably like a sort of chief operations officer or something like that, where he just kind of looks after everything. um I don't know, Sam's very hurt and he kind of externalizes his feelings in that way. yeah I think Sam sees him and Sadie as a duo.
00:49:53
Speaker
But throughout the story, I see them as a 3-0. So it's that tripod thing. Like with that and Marx, say I don't think they would have worked for so what so long and so well. Yeah. Like Marx is such a stabilizing force in their relationship. He's like a, you know, a go-between or, you know, he smooths over things. He can talk to each of them when they're feuding with each other or having a tough time. So when Marx is removed from the equation, we can see them destabilized very quickly.
00:50:23
Speaker
Yeah, so we should talk about Marx's death, sadly.
Tragedy Strikes: Marx's Death
00:50:29
Speaker
So just to... Oh, the good day, yeah. Former. So yeah, Marx unfortunately does die about three quarters of the way through the book. So for background, what led to that? So Unfair Games decided to incorporate queer relationships and marriage into their online role-playing game, Maple World.
00:50:49
Speaker
you know Sam has a quote where he says, virtual worlds can be better than the actual world, they can be more moral, more just, more progressive, more empathetic, and more accommodating of difference, and if they can, shouldn't they be? It becomes a kind of quite socially progressive and sort of headline-grabbing thing that queer relationships and queer marriage is incorporated into this.
00:51:09
Speaker
yeah But then the unfair games office one day is attacked by two shooters. So their motivation is basically one is angry that his wife left him for a woman that she met in the game. And they take out their anger on the developers. So they are actually after Sam, who is the face of the game. um But Sam and Sadie are away on like a business trip. So it's Marx that's holding down the fort.
00:51:34
Speaker
and He does his best. like He actually does a phenomenal job of at holding them off and trying to de-escalate and keeping the employees safe. like He handles the situation i think a but lot better than I would have in that scenario. yeah but yeah Unfortunately, it does lead to him being shot. and he's kind of kept alive in an induced coma, I believe, for a few weeks, but he's unable to be, the like recovery becomes not possible. So he ends up dying. Another character um who's an inside character, I think his name's Anthony, also is shot too, but he recovers. So naturally, that's a big turning point for the major characters in this book.
00:52:20
Speaker
Absolutely. And it's like the gun violence itself, it's horrible to say, but they live in the US. So the fact that it was part of the story is almost less shocking to me than the fact then what happened after, you know, that it was Marx who died and and how it impacted everyone.
00:52:44
Speaker
But also, like as much as I love Marx and I hate that he died, it's from a storytelling perspective. yes Yeah, I get it. From a reader and a writer's perspective, I'm like, all right, that makes sense because then that accelerates the story and it yeah forces the characters to grow up in a different way. so Otherwise, they would have just settled into this.
00:53:07
Speaker
stable life and you know stable dynamic between the three of them. Yeah, it was all very sad. Yeah. Rereading that chapter, like I started crying before the chapter because I knew it was coming up and I'm like, oh my God. Because like the first time I read it, I obviously didn't know that was going to happen. I hadn't been spoiled. But the second time I was just like emotionally preparing myself for it. And I was just weeping all the way through but check the chapter where that happens. So yeah again, i Yeah, I mean, but the chapter ah about Marx dying is written quite beautifully. It is. I love that comparison between dying in real life and dying in a game. Like, yeah, she can never die in a game. Yeah. um But Sadie's grief is particularly
00:53:55
Speaker
for one, I suppose, during this time. It's a complicated grief, I'd say. Because she's pregnant. Yeah, she learns that she's pregnant to Marx. And her grief also leads to a period ah another period of
Sadie's Grief
00:54:09
Speaker
depression. And we know that Sadie seems to be prone to these periods of depression as well. I don't think she really has coping skills to kind of work through that. and yeah know There's many reasons why people might be prone to depression. yeah Marx's death is a major triggering factor for this. you know and She basically withdraws from the company
00:54:30
Speaker
without actively resigning. So she spends a lot of time at home, isn't meeting her responsibilities. It's just almost uncontactable for a long time. And we don't see a lot of this from Sadie's point of view either. We see it from Sam's point of view. And Sam's grieving too. You know, Sam himself has been through very significant grief, but I suppose his grief follows more of a traditional timeline, I guess. like It doesn't sort of escalate into a period of depression in the same way it does for Sadie. So Sam is able to return to work, to hold down the fort, to try to get the office back into something yeah that can continue. Because people's livelihoods do rely on the office. They do rely on the company continuing. yeah There's a really awful scene where Sam is
00:55:17
Speaker
trying to clean up Max's blood from yeah the office carpet I think and there's like a bullet hole in yeah the wall and he's just deal he's just trying his best to deal with it and it's just heartbreaking. Yeah, absolutely. And we see this little snippet of their interaction. Where Sam says says to Sadie, you can't ignore me and our company and everything that came before. Everything isn't over because Marx is dead. And Sadie sadie tells us him that she can't go back to the office. And Sam says, then you're weaker than I thought. Which is nice, Sam.
00:55:56
Speaker
you are You are mean sometimes, but also... I get why he's angry though. He's you know who's doing shouldering the responsibility and doesn't quite understand why she can't yeah function in the same way that he can. yeah yeah So again, it's one of those things where you can see that they're both struggling and maybe not able to support each other in that point. yeah And I think a part of the fallout between them is because this seems mean to put it in this way, but in Sadie's mind, it was Sam who was supposed to die. Well, well he was in a way, that's who the government explicitly were targeting. And there's this scene where Sam, this is one of those things where it would have been good to see it as it was happening instead of it being a recollection. yeah But there's a scene where Sam recall
00:56:44
Speaker
Sadie kind of like hitting him on the chest and saying, you know, it was supposed to be you. And that Sam internally agreed with her, which I thought was quite heartbreaking. And then he recalled that she apologized for it. The apology wasn't as heartfelt as the accusation, which again is quite heartbreaking the whole thing. is yeah But we do end up seeing Sam, I guess, um eventually managed to pull her out of her grief or at least help her process her grief through time in a more distanced way and without marks to guide him. He does this the way that he knows how, which is by building another game. So this time he builds an Oregon trail
00:57:28
Speaker
rpg So of course, Oregon Trail was you know something that they had this connection to as children. And I believe it's like an extension of Maple World or something like that. And Sadie ends up joining and spending a lot of time in the game and sort of building a foundation for herself and a character in the game.
00:57:46
Speaker
and befriends characters and eventually has a relationship with a character which is not like I guess the relationships within that game they're more like friendships like they're not really some romantic relationships but we eventually learned that multiple characters that were befriending Sadie were actually Sam which she feels betrayed by at the start which I can understand yeah that eventually I guess comes around to this idea that he built a game for her to help her. And I don't know, I just found it very sweet. Like, it's kind of messed up, but it's also kind of sweet. i feel like I guess I feel complicated about it. But this happens over, I think, a long period of time. I don't recall what it says in the books. I read a synopsis which said this happened over three years. I don't think it was quite that long, but it was... No, I think it might have been three years in the game. Yeah, maybe three years in the game. The character was pregnant for a ridiculous amount of time.
00:58:42
Speaker
yeah She cuts off contact with Sam, again, after this happens. But yeah I think it kind of leads her on a path of processing and just managing life when, you know, she's their new mum. Marks isn't there to be the dad. She gets support from her family. But I don't know, she's very isolated at that time. And I think this game really helps her cope um and process. So their friendship does eventually rekindle. And then I think it kind of puts them on the pathway to making games together again. So there was a quote earlier in the book where Sadie says, you said we would forgive each other no matter what we did or what we said. So I think that's kind of a testament to the power of their friendship, even if it's imperfect, even if there are times where they drift apart or they hurt each other. They are stronger together. Yeah. And that's kind of where the book ends.
00:59:33
Speaker
Yeah, I think that quote is interesting because ultimately it's true. But I think when they said it the first time, you know, let's promise that we would forgive each other no matter what. They were quite naive and thinking what that forgiveness would look like as well. Because obviously there are some things that could not be brushed aside that easily. So I think the fact that it took that long for them to come back together is quite poignant, I suppose, and also realistic. Yeah.
01:00:00
Speaker
All right, what are your favorite moments you go first? I'll keep it brief, but I love the scenes with Sam and Sadie as children bonding over Mario and other games in the hospital. And I guess it's not a favorite moment per se, but the chapter involving Marx's death, I just found that so touching, um especially the way it's written with a second person point of view. It's the only chapter that's written in second person. All valid. out I love the scenes where Sam and Sadie work together on the games and does that creative collaboration that you can, you know,
01:00:31
Speaker
You can see the spark fly off between them when they're in that creative zone. I love the scene where Marx took care of Sam after he called Marx an NPC. Like, markx you are too good. Too good for this world. And this only came to me as we were talking, but I loved the last game that Sadie made where she paid homage to Marx. There's this description of a cut scene or an Easter egg. of some sort where this character, this actor, started soliloquy or something like that.
01:01:06
Speaker
That reference, you know, how in real life Marx never got to play a leading role when he was part of the university's theatre because he's Asian and all the roles are wide. But in this game, he was the leading actor and he got to do this. I think it is a soliloquy, I can't remember, but I thought it was a lovely- I think it's the game, is it the game Master of the Revels? I think that they create, right? And then, yeah and that was very sweet. Yeah, I thought so too. But yeah, those are my favourites. Great.
01:01:36
Speaker
All right, well, I think that wraps up our review. So we'll just briefly talk about what to expect in our show notes and the next book that we're covering for Book Club.
01:01:46
Speaker
We will be posting some discussion questions in our Facebook group. So if you would like to join in on that, please. I was going to say Google, but that's not what you do on Facebook. Link in the show notes. Yes, find the link in the show notes or type Novel Feelings community into your Facebook search bar. And then in our detailed show notes on novelfeelings.com, we will link to some mental health resources relating to depression, chronic pain, and grief. We'll also post our book club discussions there too, if you want to check it out. Yes.
01:02:16
Speaker
And our next book yeah is coming up in March. We will be a reading Hospital by Sanya Rushdie. Based on real life events and translated from Bengali, Hospital by Sanya Rushdie is an extraordinary novel that portrays the experience of psychosis and its treatments in an unflinching and understated way while struggling more broadly with the definition of sanity in our society.
01:02:42
Speaker
So that wraps us up for today. Thank you so much for listening and joining along with our latest book club season. And we hope you can join us in March for hospital. Yes. And if you like us, please leave us a review on Apple podcast, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. ah Find us online on Instagram, YouTube and the story graph through novel underscore feelings or search novel feelings community on Facebook.
01:03:09
Speaker
If we have entertained you or taught you something please consider buying us a coffee to show your thanks. Link in the show notes. All proceeds go towards making the show stronger and more sustainable. Thank you so much for listening and see you next time. Bye!
01:03:26
Speaker
Our podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri Land, which is home to both of us in Naam, Melbourne. We also acknowledge the role of storytelling in First Nations communities. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land.