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July Book Club: I Want to Die, But I Want to Eat Tteokbokki (S4E4)
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Recording her dialogues with her psychiatrist, and expanding on each session with her own reflective micro-essays, Baek begins to disentangle the feedback loops, knee-jerk reactions, and harmful behaviors that keep her locked in a cycle of self-abuse.
Our July book club discussion is about I Want to Die, But I Want to Eat Ttteokbokki, an intimate therapy memoir by South Korean writer Baek Sehee. We talk about dysthymia, black and white thinking, beauty standards, the stigma of help seeking in East Asian cultures, and a questionable psychiatrist.
- Book club info, detailed show notes, and other links: linktree.com/novel_feelings
- Get a 10% discount through Amplify Bookstore with the code NOVELFEELINGS10: http://amplifybookstore.com/products/novel-feelings-book-club
Additional content notes: Major depression, suicidal ideation, invalidating mental health professionals, psychiatric medications, histrionic personality disorder
Our podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri Land, which is home to both of us in Naarm/Melbourne. Always was, always will be Aboriginal Land.
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Transcript
Introduction & Podcast Overview
00:00:04
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Novel Feelings, where two psychologists take a deep dive into your favourite novels. I'm Priscilla. And I'm
Book Introduction: 'I Want to Die But I Want to Eat Tteokbokki'
00:00:11
Speaker
Elise. Today we're bringing you a review of I Want to Die But I Want to Eat Tabaki by Bek Sahid. As a reminder, this is the oh fourth fourth episode now of our season four book club.
00:00:23
Speaker
Go back to our January episode if you want to sort of start from the beginning.
Recap of Previous Episodes
00:00:27
Speaker
In January we talked about Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow by Gabrielle Zevin. In March, we talked about Hospital by Sanya Rushdie and our May episode covered Get a Life, Chloe Brown by Italia Hibbert.
00:00:38
Speaker
So yeah, second memoir, I guess, in this series so far. We are branching out of the fiction territory for sure.
Community Engagement & Offers
00:00:48
Speaker
Definitely, definitely.
00:00:49
Speaker
And yeah, as a reminder, if you want to talk more with other people who are following along, please do join our Facebook group. but You can find that by searching Novel Feelings Community in Facebook. And that's where we post and and sort of have some discussion around the book club questions as well.
00:01:06
Speaker
Yes, and thank you to our book club partners, Amplify Bookstore. Amplify is a bookstore dedicated to books by authors who are Black, Indigenous, and or people of color with the aim to diversify your bookshelf.
00:01:19
Speaker
You can purchase all of our book club books in a convenient bundle or purchase them individually. They are offering 10% off to our listeners with the code NOVELFEELINGS10. So that is NOVELFEELINGS10.
Personal Updates: Priscilla & Elise
00:01:32
Speaker
And check out our show notes for all links and disclaimers. And you can keep up to date with us on social media at Novel Feelings everywhere. um But before we dive into our review, Priscilla, how would you rate your week on five-point scale?
00:01:48
Speaker
a Can you say five out of five busy? I'm so tired. um So for context, I think my managing director has taken extended leave for the first time in 14 years. Like my god she runs the practice that I'm in.
00:02:10
Speaker
i think she worked, she has five children. She worked through her last labor, like i right up until the point of not being able to do that anymore. So it's a very- I'm exhausted just listening to that.
00:02:22
Speaker
Yeah. So it's like a very, a very well-deserved break, but yeah, while she's on break, there's a lot of things that the rest of us in management have to manage. so in addition to my regular workload, so it's been a hectic few weeks for me.
00:02:43
Speaker
Sounds like it. Yeah. oh Then the weekend has been nice. We're not doing very much today. Yesterday was a lot of socializing and surprise seeing you.
00:02:55
Speaker
um We on average see each other at least once a week. Yes. ah Not complaining, but that's just something funny considering how hard it is normally to catch up with friends. yeah It does help that we live a five-minute walk apart these days.
00:03:10
Speaker
so Yes, absolutely. Any chance that's going to be a one-minute walk? ah Well, funnily enough, um in terms of my week, so i was right yeah I'll give it um ah also a three out of five house inspections because we are right in the midst of trying to look at houses at the moment and we're kind of going on average to six or seven house inspections a week for the last few weeks.
00:03:39
Speaker
um So it's a lot. We've got, we've just done our schedule for the upcoming week in terms of what we're going to look at, but we found, we found a couple that we like, we've already lost out on some that we got emotionally attached to, but trying to not do that again. But we actually inspected a house on Priscilla's street yesterday. Yeah.
00:03:57
Speaker
which funnily enough we did really like so yeah we might close that gap um and go to one minute apart as instead of five minutes but i'll keep you posted yes fingers crossed i mean i'm not trying to move in move in to the house i'll just move into a ah tent in your backyard next yeah We'll just a big mansion and create our own non-culti commune.
Author & Book Themes
00:04:20
Speaker
Okay. So should we talk about this book?
00:04:25
Speaker
okay so should we talk about this book Yes, we should. right. So let us tell you a bit about the author. Born in 1990, Bexai studied creative writing in university before working for five years at a publishing house.
00:04:40
Speaker
For 10 years, she received psychiatric treatment for dysthymia, which is a persistent mild depression, which became the subject of her essays. And then I want to die, but I want to eat taboqui. Books one and two.
00:04:53
Speaker
Her favorite food is taboqui and she lives with her rescue dog. And in terms of the book itself, um so Bexahy is a successful young social media director at a publishing house.
00:05:04
Speaker
When she begins seeing a psychiatrist about her, what to call it, depression, she feels persistently low, anxious, endlessly self-doubting, but also highly judgmental of others.
Therapy & Mental Health Discussion
00:05:15
Speaker
She hides her feelings well at work and with friends, performing the calmness her lifestyle demands. Recording her dialogues with a psychiatrist over a 12-week period and expanding on each session with her own reflective micro-essays,
00:05:27
Speaker
Bec begins to disentangle the feedback loops, knee-jerk reactions, and harmful behaviours that keep her locked in a cycle of self-abuse. In terms of why we chose this book...
00:05:38
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I think this was see your pick, wasn't it, Elise? Well, it was certainly one that I was interested in. Like I'd heard about it before we were selecting books for book club.
00:05:49
Speaker
Um, and one that I've been kind of meaning to pick up myself and I guess, you know, it's, it's branded as an intimate therapy memoir. And I haven't really read this many books that are this direct about the client experience of therapy. Um,
00:06:02
Speaker
So, and that's kind of why I was interested, but based on the title and synopsis, I really assumed this book would be more about suicidal ideation or at least suicidal thoughts, which is a topic I'd really like to cover on the show again.
00:06:16
Speaker
you know, it's the field I work in at the moment, like I'm in a suicide prevention research team. So I think it'd be interesting to cover a book from a first-person lived experience perspective on this topic, but I was a bit mistaken in terms of this book itself.
00:06:30
Speaker
We'll talk a bit more about this, I guess, later on, but that's not really something that Bexahee really touches on in this memoir at all. But yeah, another thing to note is I'm definitely keen to read more translated books. I think we touched on this with Sonia Rushdie back in March hospital.
00:06:46
Speaker
um But yeah, it's something that I'm trying to do a little bit more of this year. Yeah. I also have wanted to read this book for a while. yeah, we'll talk about how about how I feel the title is, what's the word, illustrative of the experience, but perhaps i felt slightly misleading.
00:07:04
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Well, in any case, what we're going to be touching on today. So we'll talk, of course, about ah the author's experience of dysthymia, where this comes from, how it affects her and how she untangles her negative thinking patterns through therapy.
00:07:18
Speaker
ah We'll touch a little bit on body image and body dysmorphia, including beauty standards in Korean culture. And in the latter half, as it's a little bit of a spoiler, I guess we'll talk more about the psychiatrist treatment approach and what happens to the author after her therapy that's covered in the book.
00:07:33
Speaker
Right, all right, so let's dive into the non-spoiler discussions and reviews.
00:07:39
Speaker
Let's start off by talking about Dysimia in general and the author slash character. No, this is a full memoir. So we'll say, let's talk about the author.
00:07:51
Speaker
Bexie in this period of her life is in her 20s. She's a social media manager for a publishing company. She's also a writer. The ah book consists primarily of transcripts of her sessions with the psychiatrist,
00:08:06
Speaker
as she begins to seek help for her condition though she did she ever call it dysthymia herself in the book I don't remember I don't think it was really explicitly talked about um no talk a lot about symptoms and the ah back cover talks about dysthymia but yeah I'm struggling to think they actually talk about that diagnosis at all throughout the book Yeah, because I remember two diagnoses being named, and neither are dyscymia.
00:08:34
Speaker
No, no. so I mean, we'll talk more about those in the spoiler section, I guess. But in any case, the book is framed around Beksehi's experience of dyscymia, If you don't know what dysthymia is, it's a persistent depressive disorder.
00:08:49
Speaker
So where a depressed mood and other symptoms last for at least two years. So for reference, when people say depression, they're usually referring to major depressive disorder or MDD. um And major depression usually, well, it has to have symptoms for at least ah the same two week period.
00:09:08
Speaker
um And the symptoms are a bit more impactful and intense, though you can technically have dysthymia with episodes of major depression. And I would say, arguably, that So he experiences this within the book as well. um so it's this ongoing persistent depression.
00:09:24
Speaker
And I think for Sayi, this shows up as having low self-esteem, sometimes, well, in her words, overeating or drinking too much. That's never quantified, really. And she talks about having low energy.
00:09:38
Speaker
She seems to be really flat all the time, which is probably, you know, I don't feel like suicidal idea ideation was ever discussed explicitly, but that's why I said the title seems ah illustrative. It's just this sort of flat, hopeless feeling.
00:09:58
Speaker
Though, again, we don't really see Sahih talk about wanting to die at all. So not just, you know, there's a difference between being suicidal and wanting to die. So some people want to die, like, as in they want to stop existing or they're just,
00:10:12
Speaker
you know, might have these fleeting thoughts about things would be better if they were dead, but they're not actually thinking of harming themselves or planning to make a suicide attempt in any way. But, yeah, even that sort of wish to be dead isn't explicitly talked about. But, i you know, we know that Bexahy experiences therapy over about, or treatment, psychiatric treatment, over about a 10-year period. So I certainly wouldn't be surprised if that was part of her experience. But just not something that's explicitly talked about in the transcripts in this book.
00:10:41
Speaker
I also would highlight I did not realise while I was reading, which may be my fault, we're not noticing, I didn't realise it was 10 years. um There's not really a time marker throughout the book. da I don't think this book is actually covering 10 years, but I'm not 100% sure about that.
00:11:02
Speaker
My interpretation of this book is that these transcripts cover maybe 10, six to ten sessions over perhaps a few months, maybe a year or so at maximum.
00:11:13
Speaker
But I think it's only this snapshot in time because we don't get a ton of context around it. We have these micro essays that are sort of like a one-page reflection in between the transcripts and the transcripts cover, i assume, part of one therapy session.
00:11:29
Speaker
That was my interpretation as well. when you it makes it hard, I guess, when you don't know the amount of time this is taking, because like it's hard to say, is she experiencing all these symptoms all the time? Or how long is that? Anyway, but she does talk a lot about struggling socially and often feeling worried about what other people think of her and whether she said or done the wrong thing. and having quite an overreaction perhaps sometimes perceive slights.
00:12:01
Speaker
Yeah. So if somebody says something that she feels is you know, insulting or is getting at one of her insecurities, she tends to spend a lot of time ruminating on that and struggles to sort of let it go ah see an alternative perspective for why someone might've said something.
00:12:16
Speaker
They talk quite a bit about black and white thinking throughout this book in particular, which is, I guess, a, What's a CBT term? Like a thinking error. but Yes, absolutely. Yeah.
00:12:26
Speaker
Yes, yes. A tendency that some people have where they see things in extremes or all or nothing thinking is another ah why it's often called. um So this is really common.
00:12:37
Speaker
in depression and dyslimia, but also something that happens across a lot of um different types of of mental health issues. So, yeah, if someone says something, she'll take it
Body Image & Cultural Standards
00:12:47
Speaker
as very insulting and take it to heart and kind of tries to untangle some of those things with a therapist, a psychiatrist. But, yeah, it's something that's certainly contributing towards her low self-esteem, which comes up.
00:13:00
Speaker
many times throughout this book is this idea that she just does not like herself at all and just kind of sees all these negative traits in herself, whether or not they're actually there or they're just being blown out of proportion by her own perspective.
00:13:14
Speaker
it's a bit hard to tell at times, but we do see her being very judgmental of others. But so again, I don't know if that's to an unnatural degree because all we're all judgmental sometimes. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, we also have, we also engage in some of these thinking errors sometimes, but perhaps the degree to which we do that is not necessarily debilitating. Yeah. Yeah.
00:13:39
Speaker
ah She struggles to feel close to others or to have relationships or friendship yeah even friendships that she feels comfortable in. She lashes out at people really quickly, for example. Yes, oh one of the things that she really struggles with as well is body image.
00:13:55
Speaker
So Sehi references being unhappy with her looks and her weight at various points throughout the book. Like if a friend calls someone else pretty, then she'll assume that she, Sehi, is not pretty.
00:14:07
Speaker
Yeah. this is not a mental illness, just the cost of being a woman today's society. But I guess again, yeah, I think that's really tied up with Sayi's low self-esteem and it becomes quite intrusive to her day-to-day. you know, we wanted to touch on a little bit about body image and beauty standards in the Korea in particular, though we know that body image concerns are a challenge, particularly for women in, but in a lot of countries worldwide.
00:14:41
Speaker
um But Korea, you know, from my understanding, and of course I'm not, I'm not Korean, so I can never speak from a lived experience perspective here, but I understand that there are very strict beauty ideals in Korea in terms of facial features and thinness If you are interested in some of these trends, um there are there's a lot of sort of pop culture media talking about this, but I watched a great video explainer recently by YouTuber Mina Le called The Crazy World of Korea's Plastic Surgery Industry, which talks a lot about beauty standards as well as trends in plastic surgery.
00:15:18
Speaker
But yeah, plastic surgery is something that Sehi talks about as something she's considered um throughout the book. my understanding of the stats is that South Korea has the highest number of plastic surgery cases per capita in the world, which is, you know, it's it's common in lots of places, but in South Korea, it's just really exploded.
00:15:36
Speaker
Yeah, which talks about that, you know, very high beauty ideals, but also I'm also not Korean and I'm not super familiar with Korean culture. The need for uniformity, not need, I guess, but just like there's not a lot of social pressure.
00:15:53
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, social pressure to look at that particular way um and not, I guess, diverge very much from those standards. Yeah.
00:16:03
Speaker
Yeah. And there's lots of, um you know, different sociocultural factors contributing to these beauty
Therapists' Cultural Influence
00:16:10
Speaker
standards. There is a narrative review published in 2020, which sort of talked about a lot of these. We can link to this in the show notes that they sort of talk about media influence, respect for others, and this sort of idea that keeping up your appearance um and putting effort into your physical appearance is seen as a sign of respect towards people in your community, how there are advantages if you're perceived as more beautiful in terms of career, marriage and dating.
00:16:35
Speaker
And then there's just a really high level of acceptance of plastic surgery too. um So both intrusive and less intrusive procedures. I think this is a tangent, but this is like interesting timing that we're having this conversation because in recent time,
00:16:51
Speaker
um which of the Kardashians Kylie I think and Kylie and Khloe have started to talk about their plastic surgery in an explicit way yeah I know and so and like lots of people i mean celebrities but I assume also just regular women are taking up like tweakments they're called like Botox and villas and all that they have become I guess more accepted as well I think there's still a lot of conversations going around that I think you and I have had this brief conversation of like we're not judging the individuals but really would rather not you know have that pressure on ourselves either mm-hmm mm-hmm
00:17:32
Speaker
Yeah, and you know even in Western countries, there's sort of speculation that the COVID-19 pandemic and everyone's sort of seeing their own faces all the time because we're on video calls a lot more.
00:17:43
Speaker
That's really contributed to this rise in acceptance or perceived need for these procedures um and then like so much of it is on tiktok and instagram and other social media platforms just really people openly talking about it encouraging it um getting sponsored plastic surgery is a big thing as well like i know megan trainer received some criticism recently because she got her boobs done and she was talking about it as like a sponsored post i'm like i'm happy for you if you feel better about yourself after this procedure but again is this something that we will
00:18:15
Speaker
you know feel uncomfortable with audiences seeing this messaging and it being so normalized. Yeah. And I think it's interesting in the context of this book because there are several instances where Saeed references friends talking flippantly about the appearance of her and others. So saying that Saeed looks prettier in person than in a photo or introducing her as like the prettiest girl in the company.
00:18:41
Speaker
It's funny because was like, oh, that's so familiar to me. You know, coming from Indonesia, there were commenting about your weight and your appearance is not taboo yet like the number of times i would see like an auntie or just like a family friend and they'd be like oh you've gained weight or you've lost weight or oh
Memoir's Impact & Writing Style
00:19:06
Speaker
your arms are big now you know and it's just like it's not intended to like hurt my feelings but it's just like it's just seen as normal to make some make that sort of remark
00:19:17
Speaker
Whereas as I'd say in, like I guess, mainstream Australian culture, it's certainly less common and less socially acceptable to just make appear make comments on people's appearances and weight.
00:19:30
Speaker
um But I guess you know we still see a lot of like, oh, you know you're looking great. Have you lost weight? Those sort of comments, um which ah might be intended to be a compliment, but still this there's a ah meaning behind that in terms of you know, the idea that losing weight or being smaller equals a good thing.
00:19:49
Speaker
Exactly. which Yeah. What I thought was interesting as well, like, because brings up her her body image issues and all these like anxiety and insecurity during her therapy sessions. And the psychiatrist focuses the thinking errors, I suppose, or her extreme thoughts.
00:20:08
Speaker
Yeah. And the psychiatrist who is not gendered or given any context at all, really in the book, never points at anything that we've just discussed, any of these sociocultural factors, right?
00:20:24
Speaker
which I think is a good reminder that therapists of any kind, no matter how highly educated, are a product of the culture as well and can be influenced by the same sociocultural factors that affect their clients.
00:20:40
Speaker
It's not uncommon to hear stories about you know people in larger bodies going to therapy and being given diet advice by their psychologists. So it's I think it's a good reminder to me while reading that that we should be considering the bigger picture and not just focusing on what's, you know, this one person in front of us and nothing else.
00:21:01
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. But I guess it's also worth mentioning that, you know, that sort of perspective is coming from us as readers um too. So Bexahee in the book doesn't sort of reflect on that or like the damaging cultural standards or why her therapist is you know not talking about things in the bigger picture like it's sort of our perspective coming in so they're both clearly very entrenched in this very high beauty standard culture when they're having these conversations and that's informing what they talk about and the takeaways that she gets from those conversations and the transcripts too
00:21:36
Speaker
um but yes, we're all a product of the standards that we live in, our different individual cultures. um And we often don't see that or know about that.
00:21:47
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. There's so much to unpack, I feel, but we probably can't go further in this section without spoiling something inadvertently. So maybe let's chat about there our overall reviews and then we can dive into the spoilers.
00:22:03
Speaker
Yeah, that sounds good. um All right, what did you give the book out of five? ah Sometimes I think we should just skip the star rating for memoirs because they're so hard to judge. um it's fair It's always going to be subjective, no matter what. that If you had to, force to give a star rating.
00:22:24
Speaker
Oh, are we giving 0.5s or anything like that? give a 0.5. Go for it. Okay. I think it's ended up being a 2.5 for me um for a few reasons. I think with any memoirs like this, I really want to put value on the importance of it because, you know, mental health difficulties and therapy are still highly stigmatized in Asian cultures.
00:22:50
Speaker
And so to have something like this, that sparks a lot of conversation and become a bestseller in multiple countries is a really good thing. yeah, I hope a lot of people relate and are more encouraged to go to therapy as a result if or at least talk about their own mental health difficulties.
00:23:09
Speaker
It's a fascinating choice to present the sessions in transcripts with almost no description of emotions except for like occasionally in bracket crying or in bracket feeling this way yeah yeah but it's always always says feelings and there's no description of the psychiatrist's facial expressions or tone of voice or you know or even where they are in so like space and time as well Yeah, so they the psychiatrist is just...
00:23:42
Speaker
a complete blank slate that the reader, like I reflect on my, I put tones and things on on the words that the psychiatrist is saying, which, you know, maybe accurate, maybe not.
00:23:56
Speaker
Because I know sometimes I would say things to my clients, but, you know the words, like the tone is matters. If I say, okay, get out of my room now, like could that's that's a joke.
00:24:07
Speaker
you It's not, so I'm not literally kicking them out in that mean way. Yeah, a lot of the transcripts come across like as very almost like robotic just because you don't have that information. So I don't, yeah it's hard for any kind of warmth to come across or like rapport to come across.
00:24:26
Speaker
Yeah, so I feel that sort of gets in the way ah me connecting emotionally Yeah, so I think in terms of impact, I would say there's some food for thought, but it's not deeply moving for me.
00:24:41
Speaker
I mean, the writing is not bad. I do enjoy the essays that are sort of scattered across the book and mainly at the at the end of the book. But I feel because there's not that connection, I think my attention does go in and out.
00:24:57
Speaker
And I think I don't get as much out of this as I would have liked to. Yeah. Yeah. That's me. How about you, Elise? Yeah. I struggled with how to rate this one out of five as well.
00:25:08
Speaker
um So I guess I'm going by vibes more than our rubric, which is against the point of the rubric, but we did not design the rubric for memoirs. So it is a bit tricky. So I I'll also give it a 2.5 out of 5. I largely agree with everything you've just said.
00:25:22
Speaker
um i appreciate the intimacy of the format and the author's willingness to, I guess, reflect on and communicate her dark, sometimes irrational thoughts and fears and her messiness.
00:25:34
Speaker
will be relatable for a lot of people who've had, you know, similar thought processes or have felt similar feelings of guilt or shame or self-hatred and just not really known where they come from and struggled to disentangle those.
00:25:48
Speaker
But that being said, you know, it lacked some emotional impact for me for the reasons you've outlined. and would have loved more about the process of therapy and her relationship the psychiatrist and also to learn more about the author's background and I did feel a lot of the therapy was unproductive at best.
00:26:07
Speaker
And I hope, you know, readers just sort of see this as one particular therapist and one person's experience rather than sort of generalizing what to expect from mental health professionals in general. But yeah, as ah as a memoir, I can't fault anything to do with the author's lived experience. It is her lived experience. And I do think that will be powerful for many readers. i think we want a bit more out of this book than what maybe it's intended. So, but I think it will be, there will be, there are already audiences that get a lot out of it That's really good.
00:26:38
Speaker
Yeah. And there was a sequel as well, which I think did quite well too. Yeah, have so much to say. So let's, all right, spoilers. Yeah.
Critique of Psychiatrist's Approach
00:26:47
Speaker
um spoil this ah yeah
00:26:51
Speaker
Okay, so let's talk about the psychiatrist treatment approach because I think between the two of us, we have a lot of thoughts. um Yeah, I think also just to go back to what we said about like, I think we wanted more out of this book than what it's intended.
00:27:06
Speaker
i have a lot of questions about the context of like, what is mental health treatment like in South Korea? Like, why did she go to a psychiatrist? And is are there psychologists?
00:27:18
Speaker
Like, you know, are there... counselors um but i'm also conscious that that's not what the book is written for like it was never about like psychoeducation it was just this is my experience yeah with therapy so yeah i'm not yeah complaining about that boundary, but I think it's also like impacting some of the things that we might be talking about here. Yeah.
00:27:43
Speaker
And before we go into this discussion, I'll also acknowledge like we're not experts in the South Korean mental health system. So we don't know much at all about the types of training that they'll receive or what the expectations are going into therapy.
00:27:59
Speaker
We can't just apply an assumption that the version of psychology that we were trained in is appropriate or utilized in other settings.
00:28:09
Speaker
So with all of those disclaimers out of the way, though, I think we still have some thoughts that are worth sharing those. So um I guess my overall thoughts, like there were some moments of insight and clarity through the transcripts.
00:28:22
Speaker
So I certainly think there are times where they're having a conversation, the psychiatrist is pointing out, say, a negative thinking pattern or reflecting on a different way of seeing things. And I think Sehi got a lot out of those moments and definitely had these moments of insight.
00:28:39
Speaker
But one of the major issues I had with the psychiatrist's approach is that they would tell Sehi to stop doing something or to think a different way or change her perspective without really providing advice on how to do this.
00:28:54
Speaker
For example, just saying, I think you should get in the habit of thinking differently or saying that reducing ah alcohol intake is a matter of willpower. So we don't really see skill building.
00:29:05
Speaker
We don't really see exploration of predisposing factors like what's contributed, like her early childhood experiences and so on. You know, we get ah a glimpse of her home life with her mother and sister and references to abusive parental figure really like we don't really get that background um so it's it feels very surface level and that's what it bothered me every time there was mention of her childhood i'm like that pointing leonardo dicaprio meme just like just like talk about that and then it's like get skipped over because they're talking about her thoughts patterns and i'm like but trauma
00:29:45
Speaker
You know, there's something here that you go go more in depth into. um And at least, you know, in the snapshot that we get, they don't do that. Yeah. I found that quite frustrating.
00:29:56
Speaker
Yes. Same. Like, I think we talked about this as well off mic, like the psychiatrist obviously train in cognitive behavioral therapy, but it's very focused on like step one and two off of that therapy and doesn't go further to like,
00:30:13
Speaker
the self-beliefs part of it like where did these negative beliefs that drive your thinking errors come from and we just keep going back to like you just you're just an extreme thinker like just stop thinking in black and white there's not even a lot of like behavioral activation I think there's a little bit with no advising to do like things that are good for her it's a lot of like stop doing that Yeah, just stop doing that. That's easy enough, right? yeah And like I said before, like I think the lack of descriptions around the psychiatrist's mannerism or tone of voice makes it really hard to know how these messages are delivered because they're obviously landing and helping in some ah capacity for Saeed.
00:31:00
Speaker
But it's so easy to assume that the psychiatrist is being quite commanding or condescending based on just the words. And we don't actually know. Yeah, it's just...
Cultural Differences in Therapy
00:31:10
Speaker
yeah and And on that point of like the sessions being unproductive, again, the lack of time markers makes this really hard because...
00:31:20
Speaker
you can There are people who will be in therapy for a long time and that's due to a number of factors. You know, it could just be you're dealing with burnout for a long time or there are a lot of environmental factors that mean the individual can't just resolve things themselves and they just need therapy to be that safe space for a while until things change.
00:31:44
Speaker
or, you know, there are lots of reasons why 10 sessions is not enough, for example, for some people. But because we don't know, you know, there's not really, are we at the beginning? Are we at the end? Or is this the middle?
00:31:58
Speaker
know It's very hard to know if this is effective. Yeah. And I also, like, I do wonder if she has just selected certain transcripts and maybe I guess there's a possibility that there were sessions with this psychiatrist, for example, that did go more in depth into adverse childhood experiences.
00:32:20
Speaker
and she chose not to put them in the memoir. And thats it like if that's the case, that's a decision I can respect. Or it might even just be something that's cut out of a transcript where you know maybe that's where the conversation did direct to, but she's chosen just to focus on those sections that are about the here and now and what's going on for her this week. But the way it's presented,
00:32:41
Speaker
i just assumed that this was all the psychiatrist was doing. Like it's so minimal that we don't get much beyond that. Yeah, exactly.
00:32:52
Speaker
In the psychiatrist's defence, like there is a chat or a little micro essay from the psychiatrist at the end of the book and they do comment on how like the experience of seeing their transcripts in writing and reflected that there are times where they didn't think that they were that effective or they would have made choices differently.
00:33:10
Speaker
And I know that if my transcripts from when I was working face to face with clients were published, I'm sure there'd be many things I said that I would regret or wish I'd phrase something differently, or maybe I wasn't that effective that day, but There are so many instances where this happens in this book that I just did not yeah walk away with a good impression of this psychiatrist.
00:33:32
Speaker
Yeah. That's why I think we're missing a lot of contacts potentially, but also I think in those moments where I'm like, that thing that she just mentioned is actually important to discuss.
00:33:45
Speaker
And then it doesn't get discussed. That happens quite a few times. Yeah. Yeah. And like a lot of my thoughts I had articulated after reading this top review on Goodreads of the book, um like the one that comes up as the top. So the one that's been voted or upvoted the most by a user called Camilla Cunda. And I won't read out the whole thing, but just as a little snippet of this person's opinion, which I did, you know,
00:34:10
Speaker
somewhat agree with a lot largely yeah informed how I thought the conversations have no structure no direction they are all over the place and I felt the psychiatrist isn't even interested in helping their patient they don't probe thoroughly enough often don't seem to ask the right and most obvious questions didn't address the extreme patriarchy which made me see clearly how much the therapist is a product of their culture in which abuse towards women are normalized we've touched on that a little bit of course um Several times the psychiatrist openly judged the author, calling her childish and blamed her for not telling them about experiencing side effects of prescribed medication.
00:34:45
Speaker
This for me is highly unprofessional and completely unacceptable. The psychiatrist prescribes her a ton of medications without explaining the reasons for doing so. Side effects, expected results and even ways of seeing when the medication is starting to work.
00:34:59
Speaker
this whole book is a case study on how not to do therapy or treat patients. um So like that's cut down just for pacing, but yeah, that's kind of getting at some of the issues we have.
00:35:12
Speaker
um Medication, like we would probably talk about the medication stuff as well. Yes, I actually was not clear again. My concentration was going in and out of this book.
00:35:23
Speaker
um But was there ever mention how much medication she was on or what she was on? Because I know she was on something. Yeah, yeah. I assume that she was probably on like an SSRI or something ongoing.
00:35:38
Speaker
There's a point where they prescribe mood stabilizers. There's a point where they talk about adult ADHD and... prescribe something for that as well, which makes me wonder if they're on um like a Ritalin type medication something like that too. And I just like there's so many throwaway comments to medication that make me think like, has this person even done a thorough assessment of whether this is needed?
00:36:05
Speaker
Well, the 500 questions, the personality questionnaire at the start. Yeah. their assessment What is that? I mean, there are like, I vaguely remember like having to do some of those in our own clinical training, um well but I wouldn't say they're sort of a routine part of practice.
00:36:24
Speaker
don't know if you would use a personality assessment inventory to diagnose you know depression, for example. Yeah. Yeah. Wouldn't be common. I mean, there's lots of shorter, more targeted screening tools. Again, I don't know what's common in South Korea.
00:36:39
Speaker
um But also in terms of diagnoses, like the psychiatrist tends to sort of throw around yeah diagnoses at different time points in a way that I don't think is helpful. And I also disagree with the formulation that might lead to that conversation.
00:36:54
Speaker
Yeah. Histrionic personality disorder. Yeah. Yeah. ah I think you've got it in our notes here that that's quite a loaded diagnosis these days. Yeah.
00:37:06
Speaker
It's just like, it's a bit like saying someone hysteric is hysterical. like Yes. Yeah. And I believe the psychiatrist says at one point that Sehi seeks to be the center of attention wherever she goes.
00:37:19
Speaker
And again, that's not my interpretation of what's happening now for her. You know, no she has, she certainly has social anxiety. She has anxiety. <unk>ia which we talk about at least in the back cover of the book, even if it's not really referred to in the sessions, um we know she has difficulties with black and white thinking. We know she's got some sort of childhood trauma that's not covered, but that doesn't necessarily lead to histrionic personality disorder, which is not something that,
00:37:44
Speaker
I don't know. It's not a very common diagnosis these days. You know what crossed my mind while I was thinking about this book? If this was a young woman presenting to a psychiatrist here in Australia, the first thing that would be queried is borderline personality disorder.
00:38:00
Speaker
Cause you know, that whole like extreme thinking um emptiness, um you could read her as having not a very strong sense of identity.
00:38:11
Speaker
But that's a cultural thing here, right? Like that's that's what psychiatrists seems to lean towards when looking at emotional young women. Yeah, well, it's probably something she might be assessed for, though I don't think she would meet the criteria yeah for it here.
00:38:25
Speaker
But maybe, you know, referencing other personality disorders is more... common in other countries which i can understand but the thing that gets to me about this particular section when i talk about histrionic personality disorder is then on like the next page after this is referenced as a possibility the psychiatrist says something along lines of like well i think it's subclinical and also your personality inventory didn't suggest that you had this So I'm going, well, what's the point in bringing it up? You're essentially just calling her attention seeking, which is so invalidating.
00:38:56
Speaker
I mean, she seems to think it's useful conversation based on her responses, but but how much of this is just a power dynamic where she just believes everything they say? o Yeah, maybe I'm making assumptions, but if South Korea is one of those cultures that have quite strict power structures or just societal structures, is this dynamic where the psychiatrist is being directive and not judgmental, but just being quite direct?
00:39:24
Speaker
Is that just part of the cultural expectations of how professional behaves? Yeah, like Yeah, but I think the thing that gets me, there were two actually when it comes to diagnosis. There was one point when schizophrenia was brought up, it was just like a throwaway thing and the psychiatrist wasn't saying you have schizophrenia, but it was like together with symptoms that weren't quite right.
00:39:48
Speaker
I wish I had actually highlighted it, but i was just like, what? Like, well, how did schizophrenia come up in this context? And then the adult ADHD thing. I was like, none of those. So it says feelings of emptiness, boredom, and a decrease in concentration. One, not a thing like ADHD is a thing, you know, is your brain type and you were born with it. And yes, it's a neurodevelopmental condition or a form of neurodiversity that is meant if they're from birth or something, not something you suddenly develop in adulthood.
00:40:19
Speaker
Yes. It can manifest later in adulthood when the demands ex exceed your um ability to cope, I suppose. But yeah, it's just not what it's the psychiatrist is describing in this book.
00:40:34
Speaker
And how do you go, like everything like that, decrease in concentration, emptiness, boredom, that is depression. Yeah, absolutely. And I think this conversation is happening at a time where my interpretation was that, so he was going through an episode of major depression in the background of like persistent depressive disorder, dysthymia, but definitely an escalation of symptoms to the point where she was struggling to go about her normal day and things were escalating.
00:41:00
Speaker
But instead of sort of looking at it from that perspective, um the psychiatrist was just start stirring around other diagnoses and then was like, i can give you medication for that. i'll I'll prescribe you something to cope with your adult ADHD.
00:41:12
Speaker
It just, it was so bizarre. It is. Yeah, I just Well, I think im I need to extend some grace to the psychiatrist for all the things that we've talked about, like what what's been taken out of the the manuscript and were some of the things delivered actually in quite a compassionate tone. We just don't hear it or other things. And as you say, the reflective essay, I think was quite good to be included.
00:41:40
Speaker
I too would cringe so hard if someone wrote down all the things that I said an early career psychologist or even you know in recent sessions if I hadn't said something perfectly.
00:41:53
Speaker
i don't know. like I don't want to be too harsh, but yeah, there are some things that don't sit well with me about this approach to the diagnosis and treatment. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. um i did find a Reddit thread as well, where some people were reflecting on their experiences of therapy in ah various Asian countries.
00:42:13
Speaker
And they, you a few people did comment on their experiences with therapy being quite similar to Bexahe's as well. you referencing how some people who've experienced or worked with a psychiatrist in both an Asian country and a Western country found that psychiatrists are often a lot more directive than they are in in Asian countries compared to Western countries. So ah that does sort of underline our thoughts around maybe this is a cultural thing rather than just this individual psychiatrist yeah their approach um so i don't know i'd love to see someone do a deep dive into this but i don't think we're the right people to now to go can into it yeah and i think just thinking again indonesia is not korea yeah but thinking of indonesia itself as a country there are like layers to the understanding of mental health and mental health treatment so
00:43:07
Speaker
In the bigger cities, in the capital cities, you may get psychiatrists and psychologists and more literacy around mental health. But where my parents work as doctors, it's a very small town. Psychologists don't exist.
00:43:22
Speaker
in that small town. If you bring up a psychiatrist, people be like, why? I'm not crazy. um And the psychiatrists don't offer counseling.
Mental Health Accessibility Worldwide
00:43:32
Speaker
It's all about mitig medications.
00:43:33
Speaker
And so sometimes my parents, you know as doctors, would end up having conversations around stress and all that because the symptoms that show up for the patients are physical, but there are no like medical routes for what's going on.
00:43:49
Speaker
So we also don't again, no markers of time and place we don't know if the author lives. um Maybe we do. I can't remember now. Maybe you know if, if you live in Seoul that might be a very different experience in accessing mental health treatment to if you live in a small country town.
00:44:07
Speaker
Yeah, I think she was in a major city. I don't think it was Seoul. and again, like even city to city, things can change in terms of service availability and expectations. Yeah. it But I don't
Memoir's Ending & Self-Acceptance
00:44:20
Speaker
know.
00:44:20
Speaker
I'd certainly say that a lot of what the psychiatrist does in this book goes against what we were taught as best practice when you're working with someone long term and providing counselling.
00:44:33
Speaker
Yeah, agreed. And so the last 30 pages or so of the book are short essays and excerpts where Sahi's reflecting on her life and her experience in therapy as well.
00:44:48
Speaker
She seems to be making progress in the one thing that that kept being brought up in therapy, which is being less extreme in her thinking. And it does seem to be helping her. Yeah, definitely.
00:45:01
Speaker
This seems to be a reflection after maybe some longer term experiences. So I don't think this reflection was purely um written after the, what we think are a few months maybe of the of working with this particular psychiatrist um that are covered in the memoir.
00:45:14
Speaker
But in any case, you know it's certainly not wrapped up neatly. It's not that everything is fine and she has no further challenges that need disentangling.
00:45:25
Speaker
So like she still talks about feeling envious of others, having prejudices. but trying her best to be a better person ah little by little. So it's, it ends on quite a hopeful note, I think, but yeah, there are a few interesting moments throughout this section. So for example, she reflects on confidence um and what people say when you're not feeling confident. And she says, what terrible advice to offer a person with no confidence to pretend to have confidence.
00:45:50
Speaker
What could be more misguided than telling a fearful person not to fear? What could be more pathetic than a weak person pretending to be stronger than they are? And then reflects on like an experience where she disclosed her speaking anxiety in college and yet this prevented her from having speaking anxiety um yeah because she kind of talked about it openly. So the reason why I highlighted this was it stood out to me because her psychiatrist would often just tell her to stop thinking the way she was thinking. um So I was wondering like, is this a slightly failed criticism of the psychiatrist's approach?
00:46:23
Speaker
Or is this just a reflection that she's come to, you know, outside of that experience, but also the power in disclosing something that's often stigmatized too. Yeah. I think it's an interesting thing because it's, it's a very, it it's quite harsh. Like what could be more pathetic than a weak person pretending to be stronger than they are? Like, Ooh, I wouldn't call that pathetic. you know No, I wouldn't call it that.
00:46:46
Speaker
yeah I see what she's trying to say that sometimes actually just being honest about what you're feeling is actually more helpful than pretending. Yeah. I guess we do talk about graded exposure therapy, which is not pretending, but, you know, putting yourself in that difficult situation to try and build up the ability to okay with it and reduce anxiety in the long run.
00:47:10
Speaker
I guess confidence is the same, right? you So you can face things head on and it's not about pretending that something is fine and something isn't scary, but like it's a process to get to that point and suddenly just, you can't just flip a switch and suddenly fake you fake it till you make it with a lot of these things.
00:47:27
Speaker
Yeah. And then there's talking about being told to cheer up, which I think a lot of people would agree with. and Sometimes this directive to cheer up and buck up is like poison that rots one soul.
00:47:41
Speaker
Note that the bestselling self-help books and essay collections of the past 10 years aren't about whipping yourself. They're about healing and consolation. Being imperfect is all right and being awkward is okay.
00:47:53
Speaker
You don't have to cheer up. I can do well today or not. It'll be an experience either way. And that's fine. That's a nice ah place to be, I think. This ah reflective moment at the end of the book sort of indicates that she's reaching more a point of acceptance about her own imperfections.
00:48:11
Speaker
um And sort of balancing that idea of self-improvement with self-acceptance, which I think is a very valuable place to be. And so you can still be on your healing journey, but have more compassion for yourself and where you're comfort coming from. Yeah, absolutely. Self-compassion is the key sometimes.
00:48:28
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. And I guess, you know, right at the end, um I wanted to ask you how you interpret this because I wasn't i wasn't quite sure myself.
00:48:39
Speaker
yeah But at at the end of the memoir, she says, I tend to go back and forth between romanticism and cynicism, crossing those barriers between hot and cold. I forget the lukewarm boredom of life. That lukewarm state is what I fear the most.
00:48:52
Speaker
Unable to return to feeling hot or cold, to be numb within a state of room temperature. In that state where nothing better than dead. This is probably the most explicit reference we have throughout the whole book to wanting to be dead of some sort, but yeah, it's not sort of in the context that I expected.
00:49:10
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. think it felt like a very abrupt ending. That, and you know, oh, there was this moment of acceptance. And then suddenly it's like, we're nothing better than dead in this state.
00:49:23
Speaker
Maybe what she is trying to say it's like, because this feels like a reference to that flatness that can come with dysthymia. That you don't feel much, that you're just existing.
00:49:35
Speaker
And yes, that would probably mean that you're not living according to your values and you're not enjoying life. And that's not a very good place to be. but also just like that feeling of numbness yes but she's also talking about like going back like romanticism and cynicism are extremes and she's saying but the middle ground is not very good either yeah so i'm confused because i think yeah the middle ground is good when it's contentment like what she said before that it'll be an experience either way and that's okay but if the middle ground is seen as boring then that's completely different
00:50:13
Speaker
Yeah, which makes me think maybe she hasn't reached this point of yeah contentment yet, because if her states of being are hot and cold, those are obviously two extremes. And we talk all she talks a lot about extremes within the book.
00:50:26
Speaker
But if her normal middle ground is feeling numb or feeling dissatisfied with life or just going through the motions... She's almost saying that's worse than hot or cold and the other extremes.
00:50:39
Speaker
So yeah like, I'd rather feel something than feel nothing, which I can sort of, I can sort of understand that. Like I'd rather be in a point of extreme than just be living a life in an unsatisfying way.
00:50:50
Speaker
But I sort of, I don't know what to take away from it in terms of. where she is now because it's almost contradictory to a lot of the reflections she has in these micro essays at the end of the book um where those sort of imply that she's come to her healthier or more balanced state of feeling.
Ongoing Therapy & Personal Growth
00:51:07
Speaker
The book does reference a lot of self growth, but it's certainly not trying to say that things are all okay and that she's at a point of total and complete recovery, that there's still a work to be done and this is going to be an ongoing process.
00:51:21
Speaker
We know that she's been in some sort of therapy for 10 years, even if that 10 years is not fully covered in this book. And we know there's a sequel to the memoir. So perhaps there's more healing for her to do or more benefits for her to receive from continuing on the therapy journey.
00:51:36
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I do like that interpretation because I don't think we ever want to say to people that you can be fixed by therapy, you know, by a certain amount of therapy and that I guess life is constantly a journey.
00:51:52
Speaker
And so, yes, you'll have your really good days where you're like, I am okay just the way I am. But then you'll have bad days where you're like, I am crap. um But you don't want to get stuck in those in those days. Yeah.
00:52:05
Speaker
in those bad days. I mean, yeah. So maybe this is just like, maybe the presentation of the two essays together means it's just indicative of that journey.
00:52:16
Speaker
Yeah. I think you've hit the nail on the head there. All right. Well, i think we should probably wrap up and talk about our favorite moments. What did you like? really like the little reflections at the end of each chapter, particularly ah My particular favorite was her reflection about how, you know, what her younger self would think of her current self, which I think is actually one of the things that psychiatrists suggested that was really effective. Because it's a lovely way.
00:52:46
Speaker
Like this was actually something I did personally last year, just thinking a lot about. You know, am I happy where I am? But like, oh my gosh, my 20 year old self would not believe that I've gotten this, you know, gotten and this far and I've done all these things. Like this is actually really nice. I sort of go back and forth with the idea of whether I'm an ambitious person or not.
00:53:08
Speaker
Like I say, I'm not ambitious. Other people are like, ha ha, what are you talking about? How could you ever change everything you've achieved if you weren't ambitious to a degree? ah Exactly.
00:53:19
Speaker
So then there's a that part of me that's always striving and always thinking I'm not, you know, I'm not there yet. The point of the mountain is always moving. And so... This was something that I did and was looking back and being like, well, actually, look at all these things that you've done.
00:53:35
Speaker
Your younger self will be so happy that you've gotten there. And so the fact that she could do that for herself was actually quite relatable and quite nice to see. It didn't seem to carry through. It was like a moment of reflection and then it just never came up again.
00:53:52
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. It was a good reflection though. but Yes. What about you, Elise? What was your favorite moment? It was really just a moment, but the brief reflective essay from the psychiatrist I quite liked.
00:54:06
Speaker
I think just getting that, um, that perspective from the treatment provider when I'd spent so much of the book judging yeah what they were saying and what they were doing. So was a nice little grounding moment of like, what would it actually be like if you read transcripts of what you said? Um,
00:54:22
Speaker
in all of their moments of a helpfulness, but also maybe moments where you weren't that effective. um Yeah. All right. So now we finished our review. We'll briefly talk about what to expect in our detailed show notes, as well as the next book that we're covering.
Next Book Club & Community Engagement
00:54:41
Speaker
All right, detailed show notes novelfeelings.com will have mental health reading or resources relating to dysthymia and body image. And we will also include some book club discussion questions, which we will also post to our Facebook group.
00:54:57
Speaker
And in terms of our next book club read, so in September, we will be reading Freshwater. So Freshwater by Oweki Emezi tells the story of Ada, an unusual child who was a source of deep concern to her southern Nigerian family.
00:55:11
Speaker
Young Ada is troubled, prone to violent fits. Born with one foot on the other side, she begins to develop separate selves within her as she grows into adulthood. And when she travels to America for college, a traumatic event on campus crystallizes the selves into something powerful.
00:55:28
Speaker
Interesting. I don't know a lot about this book, so I'm very curious about what to expect. Same. I'm looking forward to it. All right, well, that wraps us up for today. So if you like us, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:55:43
Speaker
And you can find us online on Instagram, YouTube, and through Novel underscore Feelings, or search Novel Feelings Community on Facebook. If we have entertained you or taught you something, please do consider buying us a coffee to show your thanks, or proceeds go towards making the show stronger and more sustainable.
00:55:59
Speaker
Links in the show notes. All right, thanks so much. Catch you next time. See ya. Our podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri land, which is home to both of us in Naam, Melbourne. We also acknowledge the role of storytelling in First Nations communities.
00:56:14
Speaker
Always was. Always will be. Aboriginal land.