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Neal Shusterman explores All Better Now and a virus of happiness | Author interview
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We sit down with Neal Shusterman to discuss his latest Young Adult novel, All Better Now, which speculates on what could happen if there was another pandemic, but this time, of a virus that brings contentment to its recoverees. We have a lot to talk about, including what a happiness virus would really entail, and its impacts on characters with lived experience of mental ill-health - as well as Neal’s writing and character development.
Detailed show notes, and other links: linktree.com/novel_feelings
Content notes for this episode: covid-19 pandemic; depression; suicidal ideation; cult; psychosis.
Our podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri Land, which is home to both of us in Naarm/Melbourne. Always was, always will be Aboriginal Land.
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Transcript
Introduction to Episode and Interview
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to Novel Feelings, where two psychologists take a deep dive into your favourite books. I'm Priscilla. And I'm Elise. Today we have an interview with Neil Shusterman, author of All Better Now.
00:00:15
Speaker
We have a lot to talk about, including what a happiness virus would really entail, more on that later, as well as Neil's writing process and character development.
Introduction to Neil Shusterman
00:00:25
Speaker
If you haven't heard of Neil Shusterman, he is an award-winning and New York Times bestselling author of more than 50 award-winning books for children, teens, and adults, including Challenger Deep and the Ark of Side series.
00:00:39
Speaker
We ref reviewed Challenger Deep as part of Season 3's book club, so please check out that episode. And as a side note, while I was going through Neil's biography, apparently... As a screen and TV writer, Neil has written for the Goosebum and Animorphs TV series and wrote the Disney Channel original movie Pixel Perfect.
00:01:00
Speaker
I'm including this because I love both Animorphs and Pixel Perfect as a child. and it's I don't know, it's so weird slash interesting when someone's art has touched your life like across the years without you realizing Yeah, well, ah of course, Neil is hugely prolific writer. um And I didn't know about that either. And, you know, I loved Animorphs as a kid, too. So what an interesting tidbit to learn about.
Story Overview: Happiness Virus
00:01:27
Speaker
So a little bit about All Better Now, which is the focus of our interview today. A deadly and unprecedented virus is spreading, but those who survive it experience long-term effects no one has ever seen before.
00:01:40
Speaker
Utter contentment. More and more people begin to revel in the mass unburdening, but not everyone. Campaigns start up to convince people that being eternally happy is dangerous, the race to find a vaccine begins.
00:01:53
Speaker
Meanwhile, a growing movement of recoveries plan ways to spread the virus as fast as they can in the name of saving the world. It's nearly impossible to determine the truth when everyone with a platform is pushing their agenda.
00:02:05
Speaker
Three teens from very different backgrounds who've had their lives upended in very different ways find themselves at the centre of a power play that could change humanity forever. far All Better Now is out now through Walker Books Australia or Simon & Schuster for US listeners.
00:02:21
Speaker
Please check out our show notes for disclaimers and content notes. And over to our interview with Neil.
International Reception and Themes
00:02:30
Speaker
Welcome Neil to Novel Feelings. Thank you for joining us today. You're very welcome. I'm happy to be here. Yeah, and congratulations on the publication of All Better Now earlier this year. What has the reception been like so far?
00:02:43
Speaker
It has been wonderful. It has been wonderful internationally in the US, in the UK, and of course there in Australia. It's been a ah very positive. And I understand that it's that the German version is coming out next month, and I'm getting very excited about that as well.
00:02:59
Speaker
I think it's a story that transcends language, it transcends cultures, and i love it when people from from different countries are reading the books. again It sounds like you've been doing a lot of international promotion as well. We know you were just in Australia and we're sad to have missed you when you were doing the the promo circuit here.
00:03:17
Speaker
um Have you been doing a lot of globetrotting as part of the promotional tour? I have been. i was in Bangkok and I'm going to be going to Europe and in a couple of weeks. i'm going to be in Spain. I'm going to be at the Celsius 232 Festival.
00:03:32
Speaker
And then in the fall, I'm going to be in Singapore so and to to to hop around the world. That's wonderful. How exciting.
Neil's Writing Process
00:03:41
Speaker
And we were looking at your website in preparation for this interview, and we saw that you've published one book every two to three years since 1988, and sometimes even two books a year.
00:03:52
Speaker
And of course, this is incredibly impressive. ah What is the key to writing so consistently? Yeah. 1988. It's hard to believe, isn't it? I look back at that date and it's like, how how has time flown so quickly?
00:04:04
Speaker
And when you average it out, it's actually about a book and a half a year. o And how how I do it, it's just one page at a time. ah today i Today was a writing day, and I managed to get three pages written, and that was an accomplishment.
00:04:21
Speaker
Over time, it adds up. And then I look at a and a big, thick book, you know, like ah like The Toll, which is more than 700 pages long, and I look at that and I say, how how did I do that?
00:04:32
Speaker
It took almost a year, you know, just writing a couple of pages a day or days where I had a week where where nothing came and then suddenly I had this this flood of creativity and then I got 10 pages written in a day.
00:04:45
Speaker
You know, it it it ebbs and it flows, but it's always just one page at a time. Yeah. And are you always working on one book at a time? Usually, no. Usually i work on multiple projects, but not at the same time. It's more like I'll spend a month working on a book and then I'll burn out on it. Then I'll just feel as if I need to put this aside and I'll put it aside and then I'll get to work on something else. But then I'll work on that for a few weeks and then rewrite notes come back from another project. So I switch gears and I work on that.
00:05:16
Speaker
But then I get notes from a studio on a script that's due, and so I have to change gears and work on that. So I'm constantly bouncing around working on different projects. I'm very rarely working on like one thing in the morning and then something else in the afternoon. Usually I work on something for several weeks before I switch gears to something else.
Exploring Utopian Themes
00:05:36
Speaker
Okay, um you mentioned the toll before, and i know this is not a direct comparison, but the concept of All Better Now actually put me in mind of Arc of a Psy series.
00:05:48
Speaker
Can you comment on the parallels between the two? Well, both series take take place in in a world that is ostensibly moving towards being this perfect society. i mean, in Scythe, we've already gotten there. we've We've achieved everything that we want to achieve as a civilization, as a species.
00:06:08
Speaker
ah Whereas in All Better Now, There is this virus that basically brings contentment that makes everybody feel that sense of deep joy and contentment with their lives.
00:06:21
Speaker
So in a sense, that is similar to the idea of, of a perfect world. But there are always those who don't feel comfortable with that who want to, who want to subvert that. And so that and both stories have that element to but to it.
00:06:34
Speaker
Yeah. um In preparation for this interview, I was looking at your other interviews and you talked about how the inspiration of this book came from that comment about how you always predict unhappy things in the future.
00:06:47
Speaker
When I saw that, I thought, well, actually Scythe is a utopia. you were predicting a utopia that sort of turned into not that eventually. so I thought that was quite interesting. Yeah.
00:06:59
Speaker
Well, i I was at ah and an event ah at a bookstore and people were talking about how my stories are are prophetic. The stories that I tell tend to have, you know, take characters toward dark places. never leave them Never leaves them in a dark place. That's very important to me. stories are always about hope.
00:07:14
Speaker
They always take you through the ringer to bring you out to a better place where you've learned something from the experience or the characters have learned something from the experience that they've gone through. ah But you know there's dry, which deals with the drought in in Southern California. And I know that in Australia, you've been dealing with drought conditions and fires as well.
00:07:33
Speaker
So so you you know how that is. And there was a sort of ah ah lot of things that felt prescient about it. And Scythe, I don't know about you, but when I have conversation with ChatGTP, it's like I'm talking to the Thunderhead.
00:07:47
Speaker
bit yes Someone in the audience said, why don't you predict something happy? And it it was kind of a funny comment, but it got me thinking. The idea of predicting something happy. And I thought about the idea of the pandemic. I mean, that happened right as we were coming down off of off of COVID.
00:08:03
Speaker
And I thought, what if the next pandemic isn't one of misery, but what if it's a pandemic of joy? What if I predicted pandemic? a pandemic of joy. And where would that go? How, what would that take us as a civilization is suddenly everybody was being infected by happiness.
00:08:19
Speaker
And of course I can't just let that be something happy there, there, there has to be, you know, there's multiple layers to that. So I wanted to explore that. e And we love layers here.
00:08:30
Speaker
um And I also love the idea of um not being a ah typical dystopian novel. It's more of a utopian novel with some some dark elements or some ah some real depth to it, which is really wonderful to see.
00:08:43
Speaker
And we want to talk about the characters in All Better Now as well. So Ron, Morgan and Marielle. All have very different backgrounds. So Ron, of course, being the favoured son of a billionaire, struggling with depression at the start of the story.
00:08:58
Speaker
Marielle has experienced homelessness and pretty much parented her mother. And then the incredibly intelligent Morgan, who, to put it lightly, has quite complicated relationships with the people in her life.
00:09:10
Speaker
Can you tell us a bit about how their experiences informed their stances on Crown Royal, the virus at the centre of the story?
Character Perspectives on the Virus
00:09:20
Speaker
And I started with the idea that I wanted to show three different legitimate points of view on on Crown Royale, which is the name of the virus.
00:09:30
Speaker
I wanted someone who struggled with depression, who wanted to catch it and have that depression lifted. And that's you know the the effect of Crown Royale. It brings long lasting joy for the rest of your life and contentment.
00:09:45
Speaker
And so I wanted a character who felt that they needed that in anything. And that became Ron. On the opposite extreme, I wanted a character who believed that this was the worst thing for humanity, who felt that ah that it eternal joy would steal our agency, it would turn us into pod people, and we wouldn't be ourselves anymore, and therefore it needed to be fight fought against.
00:10:06
Speaker
And then I wanted someone, a character who saw both sides, who was who who realized that this could very well be the next stage of human evolution that that brings us to a species that no longer even understands the concept of hatred and anger and and and then unhappiness.
00:10:26
Speaker
ah But can we survive that transition? Will we destroy ourselves before we can make that transition? Because, I mean, this is basically an upheaval of human nature. how how do we How do we deal with that? How do we make it through that?
00:10:41
Speaker
So those are the three points of view. And I wanted the characters to come from different different kinds of backgrounds. And I wanted to see how they interacted when i when they were brought together.
00:10:52
Speaker
um It was kind of difficult with Morgan because she is not actually, she doesn't actually get together ah with the other characters until much later in the story. So I wanted to still have a sense of interaction, even though they weren't directly interacting. Yeah, it's all very cinematic, I feel, that you get a different point of views throughout the book and that you even get like global perspective as well.
00:11:14
Speaker
ah Thank you for saying that. I wish the entertainment industry would hear you. Yeah. The problem with the entertainment industry is that they hear the word pandemic and they race in the opposite direction. Right. Okay.
00:11:28
Speaker
it's it It's been making it very difficult to set it up for for entertainment. Scythe, on the other hand, is being developed as a TV series and that's moving forward very quickly. So hopefully if that goes, maybe people will ah have a look at all better now.
00:11:43
Speaker
Well, I'm very excited for that TV series. Yeah. Priscilla's already saved the date in her calendar.
00:11:51
Speaker
um Well, yes, truly fascinating characters. And um as Priscilla was saying, we really loved the international focus of the book and how we jump around from different countries. we say We see the point of view characters, of course, and what they're going through and how they interact with each other. But we also get glimpses of how how the virus is affecting people everywhere.
00:12:11
Speaker
You know, we we get these these brief almost point of view moments throughout the book where It might be someone who is giving away property or someone who is living in a like ah homeless shelter of sorts and what the what this is like for them. So we we get to see so many perspectives of how this happiness virus can change people's lives. That was one of the fun parts of telling the story. And and I've done that before in Dry. i mean, there were these things that I wrote Dry with my son, Jared, and there were these chapters that we called snapshots
00:12:41
Speaker
the the the The book is told in in first person ah from fourd from basically four different points of view. And we realized we would not be able to see the larger impact in the world, how things are things that are happening that these characters can't experience.
00:12:57
Speaker
And so we structurally set up these things, these snapshots that were told in third person when the rest of the book was in first person. And they were sort of just little of vignettes. ah that showed these little stories of other things happening.
00:13:10
Speaker
And I thought that that would be a really good thing to do for All Better Now as well, because there were so many different aspects that are that our main characters would not experience.
00:13:20
Speaker
And so setting those up, I differentiated them by making them a third person present rather than third person past, which is the rest of the book is in. And it it was a way of...
00:13:31
Speaker
of really showing how people were being affected by Crown Royale ah in different ways that our main characters were not aware of. Yeah, and I really like that you get a sense of the systemic effect of Crown Royale as well in some of them, like the army pilot that was affected and then refused to continue with it with their duty.
00:13:55
Speaker
um One of my favorite ones was the inmate. for the the the The inmate who was a bad, bad guy. And we saw how he saw how how the prison was was changing as people were catching Crown Royale. Suddenly all the fights and all the and and all the the problems that were were in the prison had changed and people were embracing and people were being happy. And he just hated that.
00:14:16
Speaker
And he was afraid that he was able to catch it. And then in the main story, that character is brought back and we see what he's like once he's caught it. He's still aggressive. He's still a bad guy, but now it's in the service of happiness, which is kind of creepy.
00:14:32
Speaker
It was very creepy. Yes. um I would love to talk a bit more about the impact of Crown Royal and people in more detail. So we will delve a bit more into that in our spoiler section.
00:14:45
Speaker
But before we move on, this is a question that we ask all of our interviewees. Do you have any book or author recommendations to share with our listeners? ah Certainly. i well I just finished Starter Villain by John Scalzi. I love his stuff. His books just always make me laugh out loud. They're so clever.
00:15:04
Speaker
i'm I'm actually gone right on from that into reading his next one, When the Moon Hits Your Eye, which is ah the basic concept is ridiculous and yet he manages to pull it off is that suddenly the moon turns to cheese and scientists and everybody is trying to deal with the fact that suddenly the moon is actually cheese and how does that affect the world it seems like it can't work and yet it does he pulls it off ah I would say one of my favorite books that I've read over the past few years, and it keeps coming back. People keep talking about it, and I keep remembering how much I love this book, is a book called This Is How You Lose the Time War. Right, yes. It is by Amal El-Motar and Max Gladstone.
00:15:49
Speaker
and It's these two characters in basically in two different universes, two different realities, and they are going back in time trying to make the world become their reality.
00:16:03
Speaker
And so they're they're they're going through time to to create their own future because at some point the futures diverge and one of them exists from this, for each one exists in the other future, and they're at war trying to make sure that their future is the one that will exist.
00:16:19
Speaker
And in the process, they fall in love. And it's it's just, it's it's a fascinating story. It's one of those stories that i read read and I remember saying to myself, I wish I would have thought of that.
00:16:30
Speaker
Those are the books that always get me. The ones that I say to myself, man, I wish I would have thought of that. They sound wonderful. And um for listeners, we will put links to those books um on our blog posts and show notes that accompany the episode.
00:16:43
Speaker
I think we've got to dive into some spoilers now. All right. Warning. We really want to dive in. So a warning to the listeners, of course, if you haven't read the book, please go out and read All Better Now and come back to listen to the second half of the episode, which is going to start now.
00:17:00
Speaker
All right. So spoiler questions, our favorite part of any author interview. First of all, we really want to talk about the impact of Crown Royale in terms of mental health. So ah this is obviously something we're really fascinated by on our podcast and our blog is the depiction of mental health and mental wellbeing in fiction.
00:17:20
Speaker
So can you please tell us about how you approach writing the impact of Crown Royale on characters who have experienced some mental health difficulties within the book?
Impact on Mental Health
00:17:28
Speaker
And you know having having written a book on mental health, Challenger Deep, and having ah you know having my son having had difficulties with mental health, I was very aware of the question when I was working on the book.
00:17:41
Speaker
In terms of depression, I would say that Crown Royale cures depression, because basically it brings joy and happiness. It lifts depression.
00:17:52
Speaker
For other mental illness, I would say that it kind of, it affects it, but doesn't get rid of it. I mean, if you're struggling with schizophrenia, you will still be struggling with schizophrenia, but perhaps the paranoid aspect will be gone.
00:18:06
Speaker
perhaps the Perhaps you'll be experiencing experiencing more of the the elation that comes with it. And yes, your mind will still not be functioning at at full capacity, but you'll still be in a better emotional place, if not a psychological place.
00:18:25
Speaker
So that was the way that I approached it. Yeah, that's so fascinating because there is a character later on in the book, Rubian, is that how I pronounce his name? yeah And we had um sort of a referend reference to his schizophrenia and Ron sort of wondered if his delusions are a bit gentler, I suppose. And that's sort of, I found that fascinating as well.
00:18:49
Speaker
Yeah, I tried to depict that character as still having delusions, but the delusions are are no longer horrific and no ah no longer terrifying. And then ultimately that becomes more livable for him because I mean, when you're suffering from severe delusions that that you know shake you to your core, it's a very, it's it's a nightmarish place to be.
00:19:12
Speaker
He's still living in a dream, but it's a dream, not a nightmare. Interesting. And, you know, from my perspective as well, we know that um almost all mental health diagnoses, like clinically diagnosable mental health conditions, have some sort of impact on mood or very commonly coexist with depression as well. So I could certainly see how that people, you know, with a range of mental health concerns, having this ultimate contentment would have a very positive impact on their lives, even if it's not going to be, ah you know, removing every potential mental health difficulty that they have.
00:19:52
Speaker
Even a character who experiences anxiety um or, you know, ah clinically diagnosable anxiety disorder, having that layer of, you know, concern or fear removed or lessened could certainly impact on their wellbeing in a really dramatic way.
00:20:09
Speaker
At least in Australia, I don't know the stats internationally, but It's estimated that about one in five people have a mental health condition one year. Yeah, same here. Yeah, and I imagine in Western countries, it's quite similar rates at the moment. So I can imagine the real significant impact on a population level of well-being.
00:20:28
Speaker
Yeah, it's ah it's a big-scale intervention in a way. yeah Yes, very much so. But then look at the other side. What about the people who are too afraid to catch it, who who are are doubling down on their own neuroses, who are more comfortable with the way they are than wanting to change it?
00:20:48
Speaker
And i think I think there's a lot to be said for stepping out of your comfort zone. If if your comfort zone is your mental illness, it becomes a ah frightening thing to step out of that.
00:21:00
Speaker
Once you're there, once you're out of it, once you've once you've gotten to a better place, you can look back and say, oh, i I'm glad I'm here. But making that leap and trusting that you're going to that better place is going to serve you is is is a big deal. And that's why I think there there are so many characters who are terrified of Crown Royale, who are trying to turn it to into a terrible thing, who are looking at it saying that it's body snatching.
00:21:25
Speaker
That you know it's taking away your agency, it's taking away who you are and therefore you don't want this. I think a lot of that comes from fear. And you know it's legitimate fear because you know if if you're on that side of it, this could be true. You could be losing who you are. You could be being taken over.
00:21:43
Speaker
But yeah once you're on the other side of it, you say you can realize that that's not the case. But how do you get there? How do you how do you trust that you're going to get to that better place? And we do have several characters in the book who either embody that fear or have been, i suppose I'm thinking of Dame Haviland, who's sort of forced into that transition.
00:22:04
Speaker
And I find that really interesting because like Dame Haviland, for example, she becomes sort of gentle um She's no longer this petty, vengeful person, but she's still quite determined, I suppose. Determined and manipulative. she yes That was one of the things that I wanted to preserve with all the characters, is that even though you've you you've sort of had this emotional change and you're now positive and you're and you understand what contentment and joy means,
00:22:32
Speaker
it still doesn't change so certain things about your basic nature. She is still manipulative, but now her manipulations are in service of of happiness and trying to stop what she started before she caught Crown Royale.
00:22:47
Speaker
ah So she's my favorite character in the book, actually. Yes, I do like all the little petty things that she does. It's very entertaining, as long as you're not the person on the receiving end. Yes.
00:23:00
Speaker
But then all the people on the receiving end deserved what they got from her. so That's true. So there's kind of a a little bit of a guilty pleasure in in in in sort of, you know, liking the stuff that Dame Haviland did before she caught Crown Royale.
00:23:15
Speaker
and And how she also has this kind of moral code that ah maybe becomes a bit strengthened after catching Crown Royale as well. So we'll see that she will do kind of unethical things, but maybe won't push it as far as she would have previously or will kidnap somebody, but her threats to kill are empty threats.
00:23:34
Speaker
So it's interesting where the line gets drawn for some of these characters, those with more questionable morality after catching Crown Royale, because... happiness and contentment, it's not the same thing as completely shifting your moral compass, but they certainly seem to be related the book.
00:23:50
Speaker
Well, I mean, there is the there is the the convict who has caught Crown Royale and has seen seen the joy, has had this awakening, and yet what does he do? It's a spoiler.
00:24:02
Speaker
He...
Ethical Questions About the Virus
00:24:03
Speaker
basically attacks Morgan, rips open her her hazmat suit and breathes into it to get her sick. What a violation. He is still the same violating creep that he was, but now he's doing it for a different reason, but it hasn't changed his basic nature.
00:24:20
Speaker
who And as well, the number of characters who are determined to infect others with Crown Royale throughout the book, you know regardless, yeah for some people, it's about giving them the choice and saying, do you want to catch this virus in a way that for others, it's seen to be this, this greater good sort of thing. And that's an interesting moral dilemma that occurs throughout the latter half of the book in particular is Is it okay to infect people with this virus against their will if it means that they're going to ultimately feel happier? And and that is ah and that is a good question.
00:24:53
Speaker
it And it is it is ah but both sides of that have validity. And I didn't want to... I didn't want to say one is wrong and the other isn't. I didn't want to put put values on that, but I wanted to pose the question.
00:25:07
Speaker
is it Is it okay to to give something something they don't want if you know for a fact that they are going to be better because of it? Some people would say yes, other people would say no.
00:25:18
Speaker
I would leave it up to the reader to decide. Yeah, and of course, there's always, you know the stat of like one in four or five people will die when they catch Crown Royale.
00:25:29
Speaker
And Ron made that argument that but they will die happy. Isn't that worth it? That's so interesting to think about. And I wanted there to be, you know, when i was first when I first started it, I was thinking there is no there is no mortality rate to it.
00:25:49
Speaker
But that would shift it too far, I felt, towards Ron's point of view. So I wanted to shift it a little over that there is risk. And the risk, I wanted to be very similar to COVID. I mean, COVID was one ah at but one point was 1 in 20. It was 3% of the population.
00:26:06
Speaker
3% of people who caught ah COVID would die. I just bumped that up one percentage. 4%. 4%. four percent four percent So one and one in 25 would die of of of this instead of with COVID, it was more like one in one in thirty so there's not that much of a difference And if you know for a fact that if you if you walk into a place where you're going to spread this to everybody in the room, there's a hundred people in the room, knowing that three of the people in this room are going to die because you spread it, is it worth it for the 97 people or 96 people that are going to find absolute joy and contentment for the rest of their lives? Is it or is it a is it a worthy and worthwhile sacrifice?
00:26:54
Speaker
Is it just a moral dilemma? Absolutely. I love moral dilemmas.
00:27:00
Speaker
And another part of it too is we see um we we don't get a huge sense of the long-term impacts of Crown Royale in the book. um The book, of course, is only covering one fairly short ah time in time. Yes.
00:27:13
Speaker
Only a few months. Right. So we don't see all the long-term effects, but one we do see. is, I can't remember the exact phrase i used when I was talking with you, Priscilla. I think it was something like dangerously altruistic where a lot of the people, you know, we see this multiple times um and it becomes a real concern for some characters in the book where people will be so selfless, at least in the face facing um of individual danger or threat to someone's life, that they will put themselves in danger and quite foolishly go ahead and try to
00:27:46
Speaker
help someone else and then that can you know cause the unfortunate ripple effect of further deaths because people are putting themselves in dangerous situations to help others um can you comment on on that part of that aspect of crown royale That actually came out of ah an early book that I had written.
00:28:04
Speaker
I had written a book very early in my career called Kid Heroes. And it was about kids that had done heroic things. And in my research for that, I came across a publication by the Carnegie Hero Fund. And there were actually two publications. Every year they put forth two books of people who had done heroic things.
00:28:24
Speaker
And the other book was people who died trying to attempt heroic things. And there were an equal number of people who died trying to save someone's life as it actually saved someone's life. And so that stuck with me.
00:28:35
Speaker
And I thought, you know, if altruism becomes one of the things, if if if
Human Impulses and Altruism
00:28:40
Speaker
helping other people becomes one of the results of Crown Royal, of of that sense of of wanting to be a better human being and help other people, then there are going to be people who sacrifice themselves. And how bad is that going to be?
00:28:54
Speaker
And I wanted to to show how bad that could be. But I also wanted to point out, and and one of the characters talks about this, human nature is something that we've always had to deal with.
00:29:07
Speaker
you know when When we have impulses to do bad things, we have to learn how to fight those impulses. and become better because of it. If now our impulse is only to do positive things, when it becomes ah problematic, we have to learn to fight that impulse too. It doesn't mean that everybody is going to to you know is going to continually jump into the into a river and drown to save somebody who's floundering out there.
00:29:33
Speaker
It means that we have to develop the mechanism, the internal mechanism to stop ourselves from jumping into a dangerous situation that is just gonna make it worse.
00:29:44
Speaker
Now, some people would say that with Crown Royale, and this is going to destroy us because we are all going to, you know, to to sacrifice ourselves and it's going to be a bad thing.
00:29:56
Speaker
But I think more likely, we're just going to have to learn how to resist our positive impulses the way we now ah resist our negative impulses. Interesting.
00:30:07
Speaker
Yeah. Well, we would love to talk about a potential cult leader. He's giving very cult leader vibes of Jarek Javins, the formerly richest man in the world who caught Crown Royale and ah potentially twice yeah twice and recovered twice. So he seems to have reached this higher level of being in a way.
00:30:30
Speaker
And I've I found it really fascinating because the guards started, you know, in the book, referring to him with the capital H. Yes. was like, oh, what's going on here? So, yeah.
00:30:43
Speaker
Would you mind talking a little bit about We can't get past some of some aspects of human nature where, you know, they they want to revere him. They want to so treat him like a cult leader when that's not what he wants. and And there are hints that this could become a problem.
00:31:01
Speaker
And and that that's something that I'm going to deal with in the second in the second book, which is going to be called, this it's going to be duology. ah All over now is the second one. And it's going to be dealing with questions like that. There's going to be more people like Jarek Javins. there's going to be so Very few people can catch Crown Rail twice. A very, very small percentage of the population. But all of those people sort of become these enlightened gurus.
00:31:29
Speaker
And they start developing a following, not because that's what they want, but that's just what people do. And so that's something that I don't know exactly where that's going to go, but that's something that I'm going to explore in the second book. yeah as As for the character Jarek Javons, I kind of like him. I mean, he's he's he's he's kind of creepy, in in a yeah but in a good way.
00:31:53
Speaker
yeah Because, I mean, he he is trying to spread Crown Royale. trying He's trying to see beyond the problems that it can cause to the good to to the larger you know to to to to the you know it's a larger world.
00:32:08
Speaker
But at the same time, there is there is a level of creepiness to that, especially because he is ultimately such a powerful individual and people are beginning to worship him just about.
00:32:22
Speaker
Yeah, I think I was interested because some of the words that were used to describe him pre-Cron Royale was self-centered and arrogant and narcissistic. I think even he described himself as previously being a narcissist. And I was curious if, you know, we talked about how Crown Royale doesn't really change your basic traits, I suppose, whether narcissism in this case is...
00:32:48
Speaker
his personality in a way and whether that would change once you find contentment. You know, he, and he talks about that. He, I mean, he, he talks about the type of person that he was and his, and and has is sort of very, uh,
00:33:02
Speaker
you know, very able to to to look at himself in in in that sort of, you know, from that third, ah you know, out of its own perspective to see who he was versus who he is.
00:33:13
Speaker
And the idea of now, so you know, he realizes that he's a narcissist, but now narcissism, he's hes managed to to rein narcissism in and turn it into something that can be useful for the world, which I which i kind of, I wanted to play with that idea, you know,
00:33:32
Speaker
that he couldn't change his basic nature, but now his basic nature can serve the world in a different way than it did before. Interesting. um Well, we're really excited to see where that goes potentially in the second book as well. am I. I don't know where it's going. That's part of the discovery. There's so many things that you discover when writing. Yeah. Yeah.
00:33:56
Speaker
ah Really exciting to hear that this will be ah a duology with a second book in the works. Can you tell us anything else about what to expect in that sequel, when it might be coming out, yeah the progress you've made?
00:34:10
Speaker
Well, since this is the spoiler section, I can tell you a little bit. The story will take place a few months after the end of All Better Now. This new virus that Morgan has had a hand in creating by Llorona is basically
Teaser for Sequel
00:34:26
Speaker
the opposite. It's a virus that doesn't, it's not so much creates misery, but creates pain.
00:34:32
Speaker
need, neediness, a sense of emptiness that must be filled. ah The opposite of joy, the opposite of contentment, it creates discontentment and there is a vested interest in trying to convince people that that's the virus that they want to catch.
00:34:50
Speaker
Everybody's going to catch one of them. You can only catch one. If you catch one, it protects you against the other. So which one are you going to catch? The one that that keeps you needy or the one that that makes you content?
00:35:03
Speaker
And what are the values and drawbacks of both of them? And there's basically going to be a war between these two sides. Fascinating. Can't wait to read it. It's also so interesting because from the description in the book, La Lurona is quite horrifying.
00:35:22
Speaker
oh it's not It's not like Crown Royale where it's quite appealing even if there's this all this moral dilemma tied up in it, but I really would not want to catch the counter fires.
00:35:33
Speaker
Yeah. No, I mean, it presents itself as this this this malignant neediness. And the the way I'm thinking it's going to go is that that's when when you're suffering from it, that's the symptom.
00:35:46
Speaker
And when you get over it, it's not quite as bad, but you are still... kind that constant feeling of emptiness and neediness, not quite as bad as when they're you're in the middle of it, but still it's not it's it's not a joyful place to be.
00:36:01
Speaker
was gonna say, we were talking about when it's when it's going to be done. I can't write it yet. It's still in the wings because what I'm working on now is the prequel for Scythe and that's taking up all of my all of my creative energy right now. I'm also excited for that.
00:36:16
Speaker
going to be called Rising Thunder, by the way. I finally settled on a name, Rising Thunder. Wonderful name. um So this countervirus, it sounds like it's ah certainly got elements of ah of depression, but it's not quite the pure opposite of Crown Royale, right? So it's not sadness necessarily. it's There's something else there. So I'd love to see how that plays out and what the impacts are for recoveries um and can't wait to unpack that in the sequel.
00:36:44
Speaker
yeah um I think that pervasive melancholy is going to be part it. Because, I mean, Crown Royale is not about euphoria. It's not about constantly being euphoric.
00:36:56
Speaker
There's a difference between contentment and euphoria. And so and there's a difference between depression and melancholy. And so I wanted them to to to sort of balance that way. Makes sense.
00:37:06
Speaker
Thank you so much, Neil. That was such a ah wonderful discussion. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with us. You're very welcome. it's It's rare that I've had the chance to go that that in depth in All Better Now. And it was I really enjoyed doing it.
00:37:21
Speaker
was really a lot of fun. So thank you.
00:37:26
Speaker
And that wraps up our interview. A huge thank you to Neil for coming on the pod. That was so fun. It really was. And so great to dive into all of Neil's thoughts on the moral quandaries of the book too.
00:37:38
Speaker
As usual, our detailed show notes will be available on novelfeelings.com, including social media handles and Neil's book recommendations. Link in the show notes for that.
00:37:49
Speaker
And don't forget to check out All Better Now, as well as Neil's back catalogue of books and TV writing. Quick question before we do our normal sort of outro. um Priscilla, do you want to catch Crown Royale? What do you think?
00:38:04
Speaker
I've been thinking about this since I finished the book, since I started the book. guess not. I think, yes. Like, I think it would be so good to be just content all the time and not feel like you have to keep constantly chasing something or getting something better or new.
00:38:27
Speaker
But I also think that maybe be because i i don't define myself bye wanting to be, what am I saying? Am I an ambitious person? Like, okay.
00:38:38
Speaker
I guess I don't see myself as an ambitious person. So maybe that means that I'm more open to the idea of like living a life of contentment where someone like the character Morgan is always...
00:38:53
Speaker
wanting to get ahead, I suppose. And so being happy forever just seems like boring. But would you be bored? Like if you were just happy, i don't think you would be bored with that.
00:39:04
Speaker
So yeah, well, I think would, well, actually think about it this way. Would we want to do our art projects if we were completely happy? I would say yes, because that's not something that we do out of a sense of need, I suppose.
00:39:22
Speaker
That's out of a sense of joy. That's true, actually. me But would we want to go to work? Well, actually, our our jobs would not exist anymore. Well, I imagine the demand would be a lot lower, but la lower wouldn't it?
00:39:36
Speaker
It sounds like they might still exist. like As Neil was talking about mental illness, for example, it's not going to go away. You know, it might be one in one in 10, one in 20 people that are living with a mental health issue per year as opposed to one in five. So what would that mean?
00:39:54
Speaker
um I mean, I'd love it if people were happier. Maybe they'd come to therapy for different reasons, though. That's true. Yes. What about you, Elise? Do you think you'd want to catch Crown Royale? With the information that I have about it from book one?
00:40:09
Speaker
Probably not. um But I think I would be happy if I did. Like by if I had the informed choice with the information currently available, I'd say no. And the reason for that is because I don't know enough about the long-term effects of it.
00:40:22
Speaker
I think it sounds like there isn't that many long-term effects, to be honest, but we just don't know yet. But will it turn out that I don't know, after six months of infection, everyone suddenly becomes miserable or everyone is yeah has a susceptibility to and second virus or like has a reduced immune response or some other negative side effect that we don't know about yet. I don't know, but I'm sure if I did catch it, I wouldn't be upset about it.
00:40:50
Speaker
It's more about the informed choice. yeah That's the nature of the virus, isn't it? You can't be upset about catching it. Well, there's always the risk of not recovering, I suppose. like We don't want that to happen.
00:41:02
Speaker
Maybe the questions be- Would you like to be a recovery? That's right. Thank you. i mean, there's also always possibility of being a twice recovery and then achieving that higher level of being.
00:41:14
Speaker
Well, I have been meaning to become a cult leader, so it's a much to do list. Oh, all right. Well, I think that wraps us up for today. If you like us, please leave us review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:41:29
Speaker
Find us online on Instagram and YouTube through Novel underscore feelings or search Novel Feelings Community on Facebook. If we have entertained you or taught you something, consider buying us a coffee to show your things. All proceeds go towards making the show stronger and more sustainable.
00:41:46
Speaker
All links are in the show notes. All right. Thank you everyone for listening. Catch you next time. See ya.
00:41:54
Speaker
Our podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri land, which is home to both of us in Naam, Melbourne. We also acknowledge the role of storytelling in First Nations communities. Always was. Always will be. Aboriginal land.