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Emma Lord talks grief, trauma, and the apocalypse l Author interview
91 Plays2 months ago
Priscilla and Elise sit down with Emma Lord to discuss her debut novel, Anomaly. The novel follows teenager Piper Manning, who wakes up after an apocalyptic pandemic alone - and with an uncontrollable power. We talk about the depiction of grief and PTSD, Piper's isolating experience in the aftermath of a pandemic, Anomaly's cast of lovable characters, and monsters that get inside your head.
Content notes for the episode: Grief; death of family members; post-partum depression, anxiety and insomnia; COVID-19 lockdowns; re-living traumatic memories; bullying
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Our podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri Land, which is home to both of us in Naarm/Melbourne. Always was, always will be Aboriginal Land.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Novel Feelings' Podcast
00:00:03
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Novel Feelings where two psychologists take a deep dive into your favourite books. I'm Priscilla and I'm
Interview Announcement with Emma Lord
00:00:11
Speaker
Elise. Today we have an interview with Emma Lord where we'll be discussing her debut book Anomaly. We have quite a lot to talk about with Emma including topics like grief, trauma and being a teenager during the apocalypse.
00:00:24
Speaker
Fun
Listener Feedback & Book Club Season Four
00:00:25
Speaker
stuff. Before we get started, thank you to everyone who's provided feedback about our podcast and blog. We hope to have an announcement soon and about what to expect in book club season four, because that's I think we're we're doing that. I think we can confidently say that we're doing it, but we'll we'll let you know about what that's going to look like a little bit closer to the date. but yeah Yay, season
Platform Updates: YouTube & More
00:00:49
Speaker
four. The podcast is probably going to live on, which is good And just another quick announcement that we are now properly on YouTube or and YouTube music. So ah we were not on there previously due to some kind of boring reasons about why YouTube does didn't like our RSS feed. um So the ways that we stream our podcast, but now we're on there. I have made nearly 50 thumbnails. Amazing. to get everything looking nice and more interesting on YouTube. So if you are a YouTube music user, you can now stream our podcast. It's still just audio, um but you can listen through the the standard YouTube apps as well as where we currently are like Apple and Spotify. um Or if you just want to see the fruits of my labor, um making a ton of thumbnails, head over to YouTube. We are ah still novel underscore feelings over there.
Meet Emma Lord: Author of 'Anomaly'
00:01:44
Speaker
Yeah, at least it's done a good job, so it's worth checking out just for the thumbnails. Thank you. They are slightly clickbaity, but hopefully not but you know not inappropriately so. Yeah, what YouTube thumbnail is not clickbaity in a little bit. That's true. I mean, the whole the whole point is to get you to click on it. So yeah, we've just made made them look a little bit more interesting than just our logo, which is what they originally came up as when we synced everything together.
00:02:09
Speaker
Yeah. All right.
Synopsis of 'Anomaly'
00:02:11
Speaker
So ah let's tell you a little bit about Emma. So Emma Lord is a freelance copywriter and author living in Sydney's inner west. She loves all things sci-fi, fantasy, and horror and has a particularly soft spot for reading and writing YA. Anomaly is her debut novel and was published after an early draft was selected for the Veruna and Affirm Press Mentorship Award in 2020. All right. Let us tell you a bit about the book.
00:02:36
Speaker
Piper Manning survived the apocalypse, fairly. She recovered from the virus that killed millions, but it left behind a new uncontrollable power that's forced her to isolate herself from others, for their sake.
00:02:51
Speaker
Then an injured boy shows up at her mountain hideaway, and what her set is up to get her to. Now she's on the run, risking everything for a shot at an actual future. But to get there, she'll have to trust a stranger, control her abilities, and face her ghost. Because the end of the world was just the beginning. That was very dramatic. yeah i was feeling like it today. like Good performance. And of course, thank you to Affirm Press for linking us together. ah Just before we get started on our interview with Emma, um we'll just note that we are streamlining our introductions a little bit. We got some really helpful feedback. about that, so thank you to that anonymous person who sent that through. and We have moved our disclaimers and our content notes to our show notes, um so please check them out if you yeah in the future of today's episode if you do want to go into the detail about that sort of stuff. But other than that, let's get started. and We will of course have our non-spoiler questions first.
Inspiration Behind 'Anomaly': Postpartum Mental Health
00:04:01
Speaker
Welcome, Emma, and thank you so much for joining us for at the podcast today. How are you, Kazi Weekend, going so far? Good, so far. Slightly shivery, but good. Yes.
00:04:12
Speaker
it is We're recording towards the tail end of winter at the moment and I know in Melbourne it is surprisingly warm for this time of year but has been very cold recently. Where are you located? So I'm in Sydney in the U.S. and it has been a pretty cold week. I'm looking forward to some warmer weather.
00:04:32
Speaker
Hopefully some sunshine coming up soon. Well, congratulations on the publication of your debut novel, Anomaly. Yeah, we understand that the idea for Anomaly was formed while you were experiencing postpartum mental health challenges. Can you tell us about the inception of the idea?
00:04:49
Speaker
Yeah, so after the birth of of my daughter, I struggled with what I call the terrible trifecta, which was ah postnatal depression, anxiety, and insomnia. It was a full package. And obviously it took a long time and a lot of work to get through all of that, but looking back,
00:05:12
Speaker
I think insomnia was probably the most debilitating and because it compounded everything else. Um, and there was this cruel irony to it as well, because my daughter was finally sleeping through the night, but there were nights where I was still awake, staring at the ceiling until dawn. I've been through insomnia as well. And I, it's horrible that feeling, um, when you've been, when you know that you've been awake all night and then your alarm goes off or something like that.
00:05:40
Speaker
It's just the worst. It's devastating and yeah and they were night that were really long and they were really lonely and I think a lot of insomniacs. could identify with this, you you feel like you're the only person left awake. You feel like you're the only one there. um And it's very lonely. And one common piece of advice you're given when you're experiencing insomnia is that you should try and think about anything other than the fact that you aren't sleeping. um So I think
00:06:14
Speaker
I riffed off the feeling of isolation, and and also I've also always loved post-apocalyptic stories, so maybe that had something to do with that. But I came up with this little game, or I guess you could call it a fantasy, but I hesitate to use the word fantasy because it's quite dark. And the game was, imagine if I did get up and everyone was gone. no And I was the only person left.
00:06:43
Speaker
where would I go? What would I do with my time? um Would I go and park myself in a mansion or would I move to the country and start growing food? How would I stave off that loneliness? And and over time another question popped up and that was what if you woke up and you were convinced you were all alone but ultimately it turned out that you weren't and there was something else lurking in the shadows and it was watching you but you weren't aware that it was there and so that was the start of
00:07:24
Speaker
of the story and I had my scenario and eventually I had my girl, I had Piper, and I had the beginnings of my monsters. Fascinating inception of the novel. And yeah, I mean, ah of course, I don't want to dismiss the seriousness of going through postpartum mental health challenges, but It's just it's wonderful to hear that such an interesting story came out of such a dark experience for you and to see where that's become. um Yeah, it's it's just lovely to see something something wonderful tap coming out of something so dark.
Character Deep Dive: Piper Manning's Struggles
00:08:05
Speaker
Yeah, it was one part of my recovery, I think, to pursue a different type of creativity. um And you've mentioned Piper, of course, um who is the central character in the story. And we first meet her while she's living in post-apocalyptic rural Australia with no one around but her dog, Griff. Griff, I have to mention, is one of my favourite characters in the horror games.
00:08:26
Speaker
ah um Can you tell us a little bit about Piper's experience of isolation and what it was like for her? Yeah, so she's woken up after this deadly global event that's wiped out most of the population and not only is she dealing with the ramifications and grief of that, she's grappling with having woken up different um she now has these strange and quite uncontrollable abilities and she's done things that frighten her and she's she's scared of what she might be capable of doing if she comes face to face with another person so she makes the conscious decision to remain in isolation even though she's
00:09:13
Speaker
desperate to return home and see if her family made it. um But her goal at that point is to try and fix herself to find a way to get back to who she used to be. But she doesn't know how to do that yet. um On top of all of that, she's still yet to confront her grief for her father, who died well before the pandemic hit.
00:09:36
Speaker
So she's carrying around a lot of baggage and she's carrying it alone, but she's doing all the things that a lot of us are told to do to manage anxiety. She's trying to maintain a routine. She's trying to keep busy. She's running her little tests to see if she can improve her situation. So she's basically just doing her best to hold the line and and get through each day, even though she's white knuckling it the whole time.
00:10:02
Speaker
Yeah, well, I have to say I appreciate the trigger warnings at the start, including the fact that the dog doesn't die in this story. They are essential, yeah.
Character Creation: Frankie vs. Piper
00:10:11
Speaker
yeah but
00:10:14
Speaker
Initially, Piper believes that she's all alone, but as the story progresses, we do meet a very lovable cast of main characters. um Who was your favorite character to ride? Frankie, definitely.
00:10:28
Speaker
she was She was a gift from the writer guards in that she just sort of showed up fully formed. I didn't have to explore her too much or or develop her. she It was really easy to connect with her voice and and she's fun to write because she has no filter. and You do forgive her, though, because most of the time her assessments are really strict. And i also I also really enjoyed writing scenes with her and Piper together because she is sunshine to Piper's darkness, um but also she doesn't let Piper get away with all of her bullshit. So I think everyone needs a friend like that.
00:11:08
Speaker
Absolutely. And especially Piper after spending so much time isolated and scared and alone. So yeah, seeing Frankie come in with a, yeah, a sunshine that they had a little bit of a, sun um, what is it? A grumpy sunshine dynamic.
00:11:22
Speaker
that's a yeah A lot of fun to write. And we of course noticed quite a few parallels with post-apocalyptic Australia and COVID related panic and lockdowns. I did have a bit of a giggle at the panic buying of toilet paper scene that we had at one point. um That was a little bit too real at times.
Writing 'Anomaly' During COVID Lockdowns
00:11:44
Speaker
Yeah, we were inspired by Australia's lockdown experience.
00:11:48
Speaker
Definitely. The weird thing was I'd already drafted a lot of the story. um In 2019 I was living in Denver and I drafted a lot of the story then. And then we came back from Denver in November 2019 and you know what happened a couple of months later. um So I was then redrafting when lockdowns hit here and i I was trying to redraft, I should say, because I had a four-year-old at home, but um it was really bizarre and uncanny to have that overlap of the fictional world that I was playing in and then the very strange reality we were all living at the time. um Obviously, I think my fictional virus is very different to COVID, and I was...
00:12:39
Speaker
I was conscious that I wanted to differentiate it. um But the the human behavior we saw at that point in time was fascinating to me because you can't write some of the things that happened. And the truth was stranger than fiction. So I couldn't resist going back in and and layering in some of those details um mostly around the toilet paper and the supermarkets. Yeah.
00:13:08
Speaker
I think especially because the two of us are in Melbourne, that that feels very close home. That was the word I was looking for. yeah Very close to home. And ah particularly, there's a supermarket scene quite early in the book where Piper and her aunt visit the supermarket, i'm trying to stock up on groceries. And yeah we have a comment about toilet paper, but also just that yeah that uncomfortable, anxious feeling of being out in public. And the infection in anomalies, as you mentioned, quite different to COVID. But I remember that fear that I was experiencing whenever I'd be in public and someone was coughing or sniffling um or was not wearing a mask properly. And
Themes of Grief and Hope in 'Anomaly'
00:13:52
Speaker
just thinking, oh, gosh, you know, has it transferred already? of the but Has the virus got in its way to me? Is that the virus at all? ah I think that will be relatable for a lot a lot of rhesus that way.
00:14:03
Speaker
coping with lockdown. It's such a strange time and I think I've really really just gotten past that sort of moment when you hear someone coughing and it stays with you. Yeah I still feel like side-eyeing people sometimes when they cough on the trams. I'm like why are you here?
00:14:21
Speaker
Indeed, which is probably a good thing. We all stay home when we're sick now. It's unfortunate that that hasn't continued as much as perhaps we would like. In some industries, I think I've kind of gone back to pre pre-COVID, ah going to work when feeling sick. um I'd like to think we're we're moving on from that slightly as a society, but maybe not as much as we would like. Anyway, back to the book. What do you hope young readers will take away from the novel?
00:14:54
Speaker
Look, I mostly hope that it resonates with anyone who has lost someone and and that they know they're not alone in their grief. um and And hopefully they take comfort in the idea that when you lose someone you love, even though they're gone physically, they're never completely gone. um And I think every memory is Every memory you have of them is a point of reconnection um and their voice will come to you if you if you just listen. I think also if anyone's in a mental prison, maybe they can take hope in the idea that it's possible to find your way out. It doesn't feel like it at the time, but our minds are powerful things and and
00:15:41
Speaker
Sometimes they lie to us, so you won't always feel the way you feel at your worst moments. Part of the great things about Anomaly is that it's this high octane, really fast paced action novels, I suppose, in action novel in a way, but there's also this really thoughtful moments of grief and trauma and people moving through those experiences. Yeah, I really enjoyed that. It's quite a hopeful book despite being post-apocalyptic. Yeah, I hope so. it It was important to me to put some light at the end of the tunnel. Not a flickering light because that would be creepy.
00:16:28
Speaker
yeah more of a metaphorical life. Well, we will dive a little bit more into talking about the depictions of of grief and trauma in the second half of the interview. But before we do that, we have a question that we ask all of our author interviewees.
Book Recommendations by Emma Lord
00:16:46
Speaker
If you have any book or author recommendations that you'd like to share with our listeners? Yeah, so um One is very much outside the genre that I write in, but I haven't shut up about it for years and I doubt I'm the best person to recommend it, but It's Sorrow and Bliss by Amég Mason, which I read that book and and I came away from it feeling so invigorated as a writer, um largely because of the combination of
00:17:18
Speaker
her voice um and the way she looks into mental illness with this dark humour. um So it was a really inspiring novel. And the second one, which is closer to the genre I've written in, is When We Are Invisible by Claire Zorn. So, the sky's so heavy. um I was recommended that book by my editor, Meg, and I've read that and loved it and and then quickly jumped to When We Are Invisible. And it is post-apocalyptic Australia.
00:17:51
Speaker
But When We Are Invisible goes into some of the gender inequality and and abuse of power and sort of looks at it through the perspective of society has collapsed. So I think regardless of whether you like post-apocalyptic novels or not, it's really worth a read. Thank you for those recommendations. I haven't I've heard of Claire Zorn before, but I haven't picked up any you of her writing yet. So I might start with that one.
00:18:19
Speaker
Yeah. I'll start with the sky so heavy. Okay. Cool. Well, thank you for those recommendations, Emma. We'll of course post links to those in our show notes.
00:18:31
Speaker
I think it's time to move on to some spoilers because we really want to ask about the monsters in the book, um a bit more about the characters' backstories and ah maybe a little bit about what happens in Eden as well in the second half
Symbolism of Reapers: PTSD & Depression
00:18:44
Speaker
of the book. So if you haven't read Anomaly, please go and do so and come back to listen to the second half of this interview.
00:18:52
Speaker
This is where we thrive. We love this part. Okay,
00:18:58
Speaker
okay so as the novel progresses, are the audience goes in the gaps about what happened prior and learn that there's something supernatural going on, including the monstrous reapers, who are terrifying, by the way. hey Perfect. Perfect. So as you mentioned in your blog, ah the novel is about about both inner demons and outer monsters. And when a reaper touches a character, they risk becoming a shell that is someone who's stuck reliving their traumatic memories. They struck me as being almost like a physical manifestation of PTSD or post-traumatic stress disorder. Can you tell us a little bit about how you came up with these monsters?
00:19:41
Speaker
Yeah, so when I first started started writing, the Reapers were your average, um it's in the house and it's coming to kill you. Monster under the bed, monster hiding in your cupboard. Star monster, the kind of monster that you dread as a kid.
00:19:59
Speaker
um But I realized pretty quickly I needed them to be more than that to drive the story. um I needed them to be threatening on two fronts, so both physically and psychologically. And for me, having gone through all the postpartum stuff, I remember having days where I was convinced down to my bones that the way I felt at that point was how I would always feel.
00:20:29
Speaker
um And it was like I was in this mental prison and there were just no doors. I couldn't see a way out and I couldn't see a way forward. And that was the most terrifying thing because it feels like you're staring down the barrel of feeling awful forever. mom So I drew on that to make my monsters monsters of the mind and And I found that once I layered that in and I gave them their powers and their purpose, it was it was like this floodlight moment. And everything else, Piper's arc, her backstory, the end, um it all fell into place. So they the monsters were really the key.
00:21:16
Speaker
to the whole thing, even if they are um terrifying. I owe them a lot. Yeah, i I have to say, I'm glad it's not a zombie story. because i at The reapers are scary, but for some reason, like I hate zombies. So I was like, oh, I prefer these monsters. I do love a good zombie story. Don't get me wrong. I love Dread Nation. It's one of my favorite YA's of recent years. but um The zombies are slightly mindless. I kind kind of wanted just a slightly more um psychological goal for them. i I found these scarier than zombies. So it's not the gory aspect. It's the it's the psychological trauma aspect. I think that's true.
Exploring Piper's Grief and Anger
00:22:05
Speaker
As an adult, you start to realise that it really is the prospect of your mind going, that is one of the scarier things
00:22:13
Speaker
Sorry, the other topic that Anomaly explores is grief, as you mentioned briefly before. Piper is grieving the loss of her aunt at the start of the novel, and she's also grieving the death of her father from before the pandemic. We really appreciated the depiction of Piper's grief, like the scene where she terminates therapy out of avoidance of talking about her grief. to Can you reflect on writing her experience with grief?
00:22:42
Speaker
Yes, I think the interesting thing about Piper is that for her, the world really ended when her dad died. um And then later, this virus hits and it's like kind of like the rest of the world is catching up. um But even then she hasn't confronted that grief at all. She's put it in a box and the box is very much at the back of her mind. um But the arrival of the Reapers is really,
00:23:11
Speaker
all those mental chickens coming home to roost, she can't keep running from her grief. She has to face those memories or they'll they'll be the death of her. um Writing her grief was was largely me drawing upon my own grief. I lost my mum in 2019 and I was drafting a novel at the time and and I think I just poured it all out onto the page but I really wanted to convey the complexity of grief um and the emotions you feel when you're grieving. It's not just being sad, it's it's being angry and unanchored and irritable. and And for me, a lot of questions popped up about life and our purpose for being here and and a little bit of guilt as well because
00:24:00
Speaker
you you go through all your memories and you think about all the times that you weren't the best daughter. And so it's a very complex time. and And for Piper, that all manifested as anger and avoidance. And that really disconnects her from everyone around her, but also it disconnects her from her dad's memory.
00:24:24
Speaker
Yeah, I really feel for Piper because it seems like for her, there's a lot of what if, you know, what if I had an ass for burgers? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:24:36
Speaker
fucking one you feeling Yeah. And I liked that conversation. She had conversation argument. ah She had what's said around fate and how he believes everything happens for a reason. And she thinks that's a an awful thing to say, essentially. Yeah. Yeah. They are very much ah polar opposites in their belief systems, which is interesting. This just popped into my head, but I do wonder, you know,
00:25:06
Speaker
set with Seth's ability to... Is this too much of a spoiler, but his his particular ability? I suppose I wonder how that you know shapes his view of mortality in general as well. Yeah, I think delving further into Seth's backstory will be interesting because you know, there's there's a limit to his abilities and he he was unable to save the one person that he really wanted to. So i yeah, I'm dropping spoilers now. We are in the spoiler section. That's the time to do it if you want to. It's really cool. i look I love what he said at the end. No, this power is cool in all universe.
00:25:53
Speaker
Yeah, he's got a quiet confidence. yeah
00:25:59
Speaker
And, you know, Piper, of course, has been through so much. I mean, I feel like everybody in this in this universe has been through a lot, but Piper, in particular, um losing family before the apocalypse.
00:26:12
Speaker
um But we do love that she was such a fighter as well. So including the flashback scenes with her taking down school bullies and learning boxing and how that drew her and her father closer together as well. I just really love this because it's so good to see a teenage girl being depicted as physically powerful regardless of superpowers. but We've got a lot of um depictions of teen characters, you know Buffy the Vampire Slayer types, the chosen ones and so on.
00:26:39
Speaker
um Yeah, i I just wanted to yeah to talk about how much I loved that she was a fighter. um Can you comment on this part of her character? I should probably say up front, I'm a massive Buffy fan, so no doubt that was a huge influence. But it was really important to me to portray Piper as a young woman who he knows her body. She's really in tune with it. um She's learned to value its strength of above all else.
00:27:07
Speaker
And a lot of that has come from having a parental figure who has empowered her to feel that way. Um, I think growing up in the nineties, the messaging all around me did not promote that it, it, it placed importance on things that did not lead to a healthy body image for, for many of us. Um, and I think we've come a fair way since then, but there's, there's more to be done. absolutely Yeah. I, um, I consciously set out to
00:27:38
Speaker
make her physical strength and and the ability she has prior to any superpowers, a defining characteristic. Sort of adjacent to that, there was a moment in the book where they were talking about how their powers don't change who they are as a person. and It just sort of comes out of their actual character and then Piper was thinking about all the things she's done.
00:28:04
Speaker
and thinking about whether there's darkness in her as well. I i thought that was quite interesting because that sort of there's that memory of her sort of punching Robbie.
00:28:16
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, repeatedly, which a part of me, I was reading that I was like, well, this seems sort of justified. Very satisfying. Yeah, they did have that because I was both mortified and also cheering her on. Yeah. I was writing that I think there really is a question and I don't have the answer. But I hope people read it and think, okay, was that the good thing to do? Was that maybe Yeah, she definitely walks the line, but i think um I think that's kind of important in that her dad sees the darkness, but he sees her as a whole. and And I wanted him to be this figure that really sees his kid for the good and the bad and just loves all of it.
00:29:07
Speaker
Whereas, yeah, that, sorry, I keep jumping from scene to the scene, but there's that moment of her being in prep or kinder and her mom was worrying about her being a bad egg and that stuck with her. That was quite sad. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I mean, you completely absorb the things that your adults say to you when you're young.
00:29:31
Speaker
And so I wanted to show both sides of that. If you hear something bad, you take it on. But if you are taught something good, you absorb that as well. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's just to mention, we don't condone violence. Yes.
00:29:49
Speaker
But sometimes it is very satisfying. ah Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll give her a pass for the po post-apocalyptic stuff and maybe just a little bit of it. It's not so great pre-apocalypse, but yeah you know, we understand it. right Yeah, maybe don't, yeah maybe yeah, maybe don't absolutely beat someone to pulp, but you know. And also maybe, you know, she's not the only one at fault in that situation. Yeah. Exactly, exactly. You can resist. Yeah.
Future of 'Anomaly': Piper's Story Continues?
00:30:19
Speaker
Well, the novel doesn't neatly wrap up at the end of the story. Will this be part of a series? Ah, um there's no official news on that front yet. um But I am certainly very keen to follow Piper's story and and clearly she has a lot more to do. um I'd love to see if she can rise to her fate and no and what that might cost her. um Yeah.
00:30:49
Speaker
I'm intrigued. Yes. Hopefully enough buzz and sale will be generated so we get more of Piper's story. Hopefully. yeah Fingers crossed. I just really want to know what happens afterwards. I want to know where Seth comes from. I want to know what happened to Piper's family. I want to know what's going to happen ah after after Shepherd, um who we haven't spoken about. But Shepherd was a fascinating character as well.
00:31:19
Speaker
ah Well, it's funny that you can't name him Shepherd because I immediately thought of mix mix the amino. What's his name? McDreamy from Grey's Anatomy. Oh, that's a great one. Yeah, because his name is Derek Shepherd. Yeah. Oh, gosh. So that yeah, I had Patrick Dempsey in my head the whole time. Oh, no. Oh, dear. Well, we know what happens to him now. Yeah, yeah.
00:31:48
Speaker
All right, well, on that note, I think that wraps us up for today. Thank you so much, Emma, for joining us. um Really interesting to hear more about anomaly, how the idea came to life, um some of your characterization, and hopefully, you know, fingers crossed we get to see more of the world of anomaly in the future. So thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much for having me.
Conclusion & Where to Find More Info
00:32:13
Speaker
And that wraps up our interview with Emma Lord. As usual, our detailed share notes are available on novelfeelings.com, including Emma's social media handles and book recommendations. Anomaly is out now through a firm press. You can find it in all good bookshops. That wraps us up for today. Thank you so much for listening. If you like us, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:32:39
Speaker
The best places to find us online at the moment are instagram and youtube at novel I could score feelings and the story graph. Thank you so much for listening. Bye everyone. Bye. Our podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri land, which is home to both of us in Naam, Melbourne. We also acknowledge the role of storytelling in First Nations communities. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land.