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Beneath the Surface with 'Roots and All' host Sarah Wilson
143 Plays1 month ago
In this episode of The Gardener’s Lodge podcast, Mykal sits down with Sarah Wilson, host of the acclaimed Roots and All podcast, for a wide-ranging and honest conversation about gardening, media, and integrity. Sarah reflects on her journey into horticulture, how podcasting has shaped her thinking, and why she’s become more questioning of industry narratives, motives, greenwashing, and who gets amplified in gardening media. Together, they explore wildlife gardening, independent garden media, therapeutic landscapes, and what it means to garden thoughtfully in a changing world.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Gardener's Lodge
00:00:07
Speaker
Step into the gardener's lodge with me, Michael Haw. Let's explore the fascinating worlds of gardening, nature and ecology through conversations with experts, thought leaders, passionate enthusiasts, and of course, some real good friends.
00:00:23
Speaker
All from the cozy heart of the lodge. Come on in.
00:00:29
Speaker
Welcome to
Sarah Wilson's Horticulture Journey
00:00:30
Speaker
the show. Guys, this is a really cool one. I'm chatting with the wonderful Sarah Wilson, the host of the acclaimed Roots and All podcast. I have had such a great time chatting with Sarah about all things horticulture, from her career to her views on how the industry has changed over the past few years, and Look, she gives us her perspectives on how she chooses to amplify certain voices in the industry through her podcasts. It's honestly such a great behind the scenes look at her process. And we even learn how podcasting has shaped the way she moves through the industry today, as well as how she gardens today.
00:01:07
Speaker
It's a great, interesting, fun chat. I hope you enjoyed it just as much as I did. But first, before we get into it, we have to ask Sarah our rapid fire questions.
00:01:19
Speaker
All right. Are you ready? Yeah. All right. Favorite plant? Dahlias. Favorite way to connect with nature? Lay on the grass. What is the most beautiful garden or natural landscape that you have ever visited?
00:01:32
Speaker
Sticky wicket. Favorite garden tool? Secateurs. Nice. If you could be one, would you be a plant or an animal? Animal. And when you're looking for the most sound and reliable horticultural advice, where do you go?
00:01:49
Speaker
Oh, my bookshelf. Nice.
Gardening Philosophy and Practices
00:01:54
Speaker
Yeah, I think so. When did you first find yourself in love with gardening, enamored by the natural world?
00:02:00
Speaker
m It was oh probably about 2009 and... nine and i didn't it wasn't kind of It wasn't love at first sight. ah It was more a challenge because i I got a house and a garden of my own and I was very, very bad at gardening. But I liked it and I thought, I really need to learn how to do this properly because I just keep buying plants and killing them. um But I suppose I'd always been like very outdoorsy and I'd always gardened with my granddad and when I was growing up. So I did like gardens. I'm a great-grand in fact, because he was um he was actually a gardener.
00:02:44
Speaker
So I suppose I had it in me and I'd experienced gardening and I knew I liked pretty flowers and that was about as far as it went. So yeah, when I got into it professionally, it was because I thought, oh God, I'm rubbish at this. I need to need to get on it. um And I was just at a complete loss as to what to do for a career change. And I knew I needed to do a career change. because of where I was professionally and sort of mentally as well um and gardening just just cropped up and that was it and I thought yes why not it's as good as any other career and I just started to get into it and then it snowed and then and then I really did love it once I got into it.
00:03:23
Speaker
What was your original career? I've done lots of different jobs. um I suppose my main career before I started gardening was I worked in publishing, so magazine publishing.
00:03:34
Speaker
Oh, lovely. So in the media, I guess that kind of ties through into your kind of podcast work as well. Yeah. yeah And I've got a media, I've got an English literature and media degree. So I suppose that's always been of interest to me.
00:03:46
Speaker
Definitely. Nice. What kind of gardener are you at heart? oh I'm a lazy rubbish one, honestly. i I'm terrible. And ah the more I garden, the worse I get because um I don't actually want to garden now. And i sort of see myself as interfering in a landscape and just thinking, oh, God, if I take that out, I'm destroying that. And now I'm just kind of, I'm, i'm yeah, getting very hands off and very...
00:04:13
Speaker
very conscious that what I do has massive ramifications, even at a tiny level. So I'm a very, I'm probably quite a nervous gardener now. And I have to sometimes check myself and say, okay, well, you're doing this for the greater good. You are doing this literally to feed yourself and feed others. So it's going to be a, there's going to be a trade off. But yeah, I'm i'm kind of if I can do things the easy way, then I absolutely will do. Whereas before, when I started out, I think I just thought I'd do everything by the book and do it all properly and do it really labor intensive. and And I don't do that anymore. Now I'm just like, how can I take a very hands-off approach? How can I do this softly? And how can I work with what's there? So yes, aesthetically, it might not be everyone's cup of tea, i think. But yeah, for me. sounds like you're gardening for the environment in that case.
00:05:02
Speaker
I think I'm gardening in tandem with it. and yeah And yes, sometimes it does definitely does take precedent. If I think that there's a patch of garden that I should just leave alone because it's doing its thing, then I absolutely will do that. Yeah.
00:05:15
Speaker
What are your current gardening obsessions? Hmm. I think that I mean there's a there's a wonderful garden designer in the UK called Cleve West who you may well have heard of um and he always laughs at me because when I started out gardening when I was in my you know going back a few years I would just say I don't care about vegetables and fruit and edibles I just don't care I'm not interested at all just give me flowers and uh And I've gone like the full circle and now if i can if I can produce stuff to eat um and also herbs and things that I can drive for teas. I think that's really where I'm at now. I mean, it's one of those things, isn't it? Like I probably started in that same realm um and then through virtue of having a
00:06:02
Speaker
slightly larger garden was able to start planting vegetables and then kind of got quite obsessed with that um because of more so the taste and the health benefits of growing your own food. um So I'm completely with you on on that side of yeah things. What brings you the most joy in the garden? I know you said you don't like to garden anymore and you're a nervous gardener, but but there must still be something in there that brings you joy.
00:06:28
Speaker
I've always loved weeding. i know that makes me a bit odd. No, it doesn't. I completely get it. I i actually do too. Yeah. i It's so therapeutic, like mindful in a way.
00:06:39
Speaker
Yeah, no, there's something about kind of editing um and then, you know, just ah just leaving the things and letting things remain that have popped to themselves there as well. It's just, kind of, there's some sort of artistry to it, I think, and it's quite satisfying. so yeah, i do I do like that. And I love pruning. pruning roses and things like that. So yeah, that's definitely my my thing. And how has your relationship with gardening changed since beginning
Industry Cynicism and Positive Shifts
00:07:07
Speaker
your podcast? do you think you started in 2018? Is that right?
00:07:10
Speaker
oh Yeah. How has it changed? um I think, sadly, I've become a bit more cynical. um You know, I came into gardening really full of hope and, you know, really, really pleased that I'd found the industry because there were so many good people in it. um And then as I've gone along, i think,
00:07:33
Speaker
as you do with most things, the scales fall from your eyes a little bit and you you think, oh, actually there's there's other motivations that play here, such as money. Money is always a big one. It makes people do things that I question sometimes. and So in that respect, I think I've become a bit less naive.
00:07:52
Speaker
um But I think... One of the nice things since I started the podcast is um I feel that a change has happened in the gardening world, certainly in the UK. I can't speak for everywhere, but in the UK, definitely the wildlife gardening thing has has really become massive. And a lot of people are bearing that in mind now when they garden.
00:08:16
Speaker
So I think that, you know, for me, that's become less of a drum to bang because I feel like in a way it's it's it's happening. um Maybe not enough, maybe not quickly enough. um And maybe now ah as well, taking the long view, I kind of think, well, is is it enough? You know, can we actually make changes within our gardens that will make an impact on the wider environment? And I i now, i guess, question that a little bit. um So, yeah, I think I think my attitude has changed. But at heart, I'm still I'm still a wildlife gardener and I i always have been and I always will be. um
00:08:54
Speaker
But, yeah, that takes, I suppose, slightly different forms now to what it used to. Yeah, yeah. I find your initial answer of that you're maybe a little more cynical about the industry as a whole quite, I find that quite interesting. And I'd like to kind of explore that maybe a little bit deeper with without, i suppose, doxing anyone or anything like that. But i imagine you're talking on a part of, you know, money forces companies to promote products that aren't necessarily good for the environment, good for human life, good for, you know, let alone wildlife.
00:09:28
Speaker
um Is that sort of where you where you find that kind of cynicism coming from? Yeah, I do. I mean, greenwashing is a huge problem, um not just in our industry, but across the board. So yes, that's definitely something I've noticed. um And I think for me personally, there's the I think what's happened is that the wildlife and sustainable gardening has been slightly co-opted by people whose business it is to make money out of it. And that's where I'm where i'm at with that. um And kind of giving specific examples, um I think that
00:10:05
Speaker
You know, that I'm not in any way saying that our climate is not changing because it certainly is. But there's this push at the moment to, I think, maybe oversimplifying the effects of climate change or in some instances, maybe overstating them.
00:10:23
Speaker
And, you know, the the motivation behind that is to get us all to look at a different plant palette and um And to say, look, you can only plant these trees, for example, because London is going to be hotter than Barcelona in you know so many years or the same temperature. and And I think to myself, we need to be a little less certain about our decisions and a little less, a little more open when it comes to species selection when we're doing planting jobs, because We don't actually know what's happening. We have no idea. and You know, no two years are the same now, um mean certainly in the yeah UK. And, you know, yes, it is getting warmer in summers, undeniably, but we're also having very, very wet winters. They're not as cold. um
00:11:10
Speaker
But then we will have a cold snap and then, you know, it's it's feeling our way to find plants that can adapt to those conditions and can cope with them. But what I don't want is a company to come to me or a designer to come to me and offer me this panacea and say, this is the plant palette you must be using going forward because these are the only plants that will survive in these future conditions. which we have no way of predicting. And, and you know, if that happens to be a nursery, for example, that's selling me that that plant list, then I question it and I say, well, no, I'd like to have some variety because I want to have the option to put things in. And, you know, we can only judge on their performance over time. You know, I don't believe anyone who comes to me with a solution because I just don't think we know enough. And if their solution is based around selling in more of that thing, then I'm i'm naturally cynical, I think.
00:12:05
Speaker
And the other thing that is kind of one of my big bugbears is the native versus non-native plants debate, which I wade into quite frequently. But there's a lot of people out there pushing alternatives to native species and saying they are just as good for biodiversity when I don't believe from what I've read, and I have read extensively on it. you know I'm certainly no expert, but I've read a lot and spoken to a lot of people. I don't believe that that is the case. and But if it's your business to to sell me a planting scheme or you know a design that is but it contains a lot of ornamentals and tell me that it's good for biodiversity, then I'm again naturally cynical and I'm thinking, hmm, is it though? Or you just saying that because it's a way to get to tick boxes with you know planning departments and with to gain public kind of support for it? So yeah, I think I am just by nature quite a cynical person and if there's money involved and somebody's career is being furthered then I'm like I don't you know i don't necessarily accept everything you're trying to spoon feed to me there so I will question stuff
00:13:13
Speaker
I think that that probably comes from your background in media. Like myself, I think I have a certain level of cynicism, uh, when companies and corporations and even individuals that have something to gain from pushing a certain narrative get involved. I think it can be very easy for the general public to just accept that as fact, as opposed to kind of having,
00:13:37
Speaker
a little bit more media literacy and being able to kind of go, well, hang on a minute. um This needs interrogation. And I think it's interesting that the talk that discussion about natives versus non-natives coming from my perspective as an Australian, because we come at it from a place where were colonised 200 plus years ago and most of our species are native. we I think we only have about 3,000 exotics available on the market in Australia. um And we come from ah I come from a kind of strain of thought that planting natives in for an Australian context is essential because all of our plant species and insect and beneficial species have actually evolved with each other and in tandem with each other. And so when you start to break down systems and and saying that, you know, exotics are better and exotics are just or or just as good, you know, i find that hard to buy as well because
00:14:37
Speaker
It's just not the case in terms of the way that beneficials have evolved. Yeah, exactly. And they can't evolve quickly enough to to cope with what we're throwing at them when we're changing their entire diet and habitat as well. So, you know, that it's just it it doesn't make sense to me on a rational level, ah let alone why I'm suspicious of it. Yeah, yeah. I just can't see
Podcasting Challenges and Impact
00:15:01
Speaker
it. and i And I can see from my own observations in the garden that you know, I'll have a polytunnel here at work full of ornamentals, full of all sorts of things that appear outwardly to have amazing pollen and nectar sources. However, when I go in there, um you know, relatively early in the year, the bumblebees are on the red dead nettle that's just seeded itself and they're clamouring for it. You know, they're all over it. And I think, you know, there's you have to look at these things and think, OK, well, what are they preferring? And you have to be led by that. You have to be quite observant as a gardener, which I'm not always. hold my hands up. But yeah, you can you can see with your eyes what what you know what the situation is.
00:15:40
Speaker
Well, that's right. And I mean, it all comes down to like the certain anatomy of the flower versus the anatomy of the pollinators. And yeah, that's a whole, that's a whole different topic. 2026 is upon us and I have limited spaces open for my garden coaching and consultation sessions.
00:15:57
Speaker
Whether you're looking for help with plant identification, advice on care and maintenance, or tips for improving your soil and plant nutrition, I'm here to help. As a garden designer, I'll help you think creatively about your outdoor space, offering tools and ideas to give you a fresh perspective on your garden projects.
00:16:17
Speaker
My coaching and consultation sessions can happen right in your garden if you live in the UK, or online if you're anywhere else in the world. My goal is to meet you where you are and support your unique garden journey.
00:16:33
Speaker
Whether you're just starting out, looking to refine your skills, or simply need a second opinion, or someone just to bounce ideas off, you have found your space.
00:16:44
Speaker
Head to the link in this episode description or shoot me an email at hello at thegardenerslodge.co.uk.
00:16:53
Speaker
So you obviously are the host of your very own podcast, Roots and All, which is like wildly successful. i think you're on like 370 episodes, which is nuts.
00:17:05
Speaker
Yeah, 369. Well done. 369. There you go. Probably by the time this is out, you'll have a few more. but yeah You've said that um things could be done better and that was sort of like one of your...
00:17:17
Speaker
starting points for creating the show at that time in 2018 what could you see that could be done better and do you think we're there now yeah I mean it was a real wild west of podcasting back then and there just wasn't very many gardening podcasts about and so because I was um I was really deep into learning about horticulture at that time um I was desperately trying to find podcasts I could listen to while I was gardening and and learn from and there was just not that many um there were a lot coming out of the states you know they seem to have a sort of better better output but um the ones that we had in the UK and I always I always dig them out unfortunately but there were there was gardeners question time and there was the one on my local Sussex radio and I'd tune in to the sort of show recordings and just be horrified by how much they advocated for using chemicals in the garden and pesticides and, you know, and the kind of invasive gardening methods and destructive gardening methods that I just could not support through my work at the time. And I was
00:18:27
Speaker
gardening for clients and I was constantly having battles and saying no let's not do it that way because if we do that then we disrupt that and it damages that and you'll have a knock-on effect and you know and you can't always get what you want in the garden which is actually quoting Sheila Das who now works for the National Trust here in the UK but she's an incredible gardener and she did this fantastic talk at a talking plant symposium that I attended. And she said, and that's exactly what she said, she quoted that lyric, and you know, you can't always get what you you want, but sometimes you get what you need. And that's why in the garden, you you can't ride roughshod over what you've already got, to the point where you just obliterate what's there. You have to try and work with with what is already in situ. And sometimes clients don't get that, particularly if they've got, you know, a lot of money or a lot of, you know, kind of control over their environment. They've done their house up maybe, They've spent a lot of money to get that to where they want it to be. And then you go in into the garden and they say, yeah, well, I want this here. And you say, yes, but yeah I can put that there for you, but I can guarantee you it won't survive. Or if it does, we're going to be propping it up with so many artificial things that, you know, that was always that was always my issue. So when I would listen to these podcasts, And they suggested this real heavy handed technique of gardening. I just, I was horrified. And I thought, I can't, I cannot in all good conscience listen to this.
00:19:52
Speaker
And what can I do about it? You know, I was getting so frustrated. um And I thought, you know what, you've you've really got to stop moaning about this and if you want to change it then you've got to do something about it. So I started podcasting and it was very basic and it was really terrible and the sound quality was rubbish and um and amazingly people agreed to come on and be guests and they were so generous with their knowledge and their time. And I was like, oh, OK, well, this could work. um And I started out doing shows where it was just me monologuing and it was so boring. I'm nobody. I'm boring myself. Surely no one's going to want to listen to this. i switched purely to the guest format, which I love because it enables me to go away and do some research into the guest. And then I learn and I speak to the guest and they're absolutely amazing.
00:20:44
Speaker
almost always lovely and fantastic and I'd have a great conversation and then um you know go away and put it out and then everyone else benefits from that um so it was you know it was it was selfish in as much as I was learning but it was also i i i altruistic really in my intentions I thought you know I want this to be useful to other gardeners who may be also looking for an alternative way and alternative information sources. So yeah, that that was kind of the driver behind it.
00:21:15
Speaker
The thing I love about doing a podcast is that you almost get a little masterclass every week of your life as a host, you know, um and that's the beauty of it. But you're right. the The real intention is to share information and to, I guess, get points of view across that are valuable to the world around us. And I think the beauty of podcasting, almost more so than than any other form of garden media, is that it has really enabled people to have horticulture, completely like demystified. And I think that you've actually had a like decent role in doing that, particularly for the UK garden community.
00:21:54
Speaker
Do you feel like you've played a part in that demystification of like hort and natural gardening? Um, yes, I mean, I'm not, I'm never one to play my own trumpet. So you'll have to really prize. Go on. eking Out of me on that front. But yeah, I have to say, i do feel like I've added to the conversation. um And maybe highlighted people as well, sometimes who weren't getting heard necessarily. um So yes, I do. I do think hand on heart, like it's, it's it's added.
00:22:28
Speaker
It's definitely added to that sort of, aspect of horticulture um and yeah like you said getting people on and giving a voice to people who perhaps were a bit unsung or had been skipped over by other people um and it's not just the wildlife gardening aspect now i think it's all of horticulture if I see something that's interesting then I just you know i'll I'll jump on it because I love anything that's a bit unusual and you know, and you never know where it's going to lead. Um, and you never know who's going to get inspired by it. You know, it's, it's, um, it's, so it's really good. It's really good to just put it out there into the ether without too much thought. I mean, I'm never strategic, uh, with my output and I'm just like, okay, well that looks good. Let's do that this week. And sometimes they're a bit off paced and sometimes, you know, they're very practical and, um,
00:23:20
Speaker
But I just run with it. And then if people want to listen, they listen. If they don't, then they skip it. You know, it's fine. It's fine by me. Being a podcast host is a little bit like being an editor, deciding voices um that are amplified or voices that are not amplified. Are there people or ideas or strains of thinking that you refrain from highlighting on your show? Yeah, definitely. I mean, if you've e but emailed me and asked me if ah you can be on my podcast and I've ignored you, it's because it's for a reason. It's because I, look qui ahead you know, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not very good at sort of, I say I'm not very good at confrontation. I generally am, but I don't, I'm like, oh God, how can I say to that person, you're not a right fit, which I have gone back and said, and you know, I'm not always cowardly, but sometimes I'm like, oh God, I really don't think that, I don't think you're a good fit or I think your intentions are,
00:24:15
Speaker
driven by wanting exposure for your project product or your company. And that's not what I'm about on the podcast. ah You've got to give me something in terms of information that's going to be really useful to people. um And so unless there's that spark and that thread that I can pull on, then I i won't have a guest on. So yeah, I do. and i feel I feel a bit bad about that because I am making all of those editorial decisions and I'm deciding what people are going to find interesting and what they're not.
00:24:45
Speaker
But you can't avoid it. I mean, you know, if if so if people come to me and they demand someone, you know, like who who they think is really and and a lot of people say it, then I will, you know, i will consider that guest and I will approach them, um you know. And similarly, people i've I've reached out to people who have just not got back to me or not interested. So that's, you know, I suppose it works both ways. But, yeah, there is a responsibility on you as an editor. um And, you know, i and I know I'm quite glib about it and I do follow whatever the next shiny thing is that comes along. i do, you know, behind the scenes, make decisions and shape the the narrative of the podcast overall. And that's not without its kind of guilt and weight of responsibility sometimes. um But i I think I just I just try and put myself to because ah ultimately I'm probably the listener that I'm recording the podcast for.
00:25:39
Speaker
i I know what I would like to listen to and I know who I would think was, oh, can I, ah can I swear? oh yeah, please. Good. Well, I was going to say, I think i would sniff out someone if I thought they were talking bullshit and I'd be like, no, i just i don't like this guest. I don't, I don't know why they're on the show, you know? so In that respect, i I hope I'm doing the right thing and I hope I'm guiding it in the right way.
00:26:02
Speaker
I mean, it's a fascinating thing, isn't it? Do you think that there's like people or kind of groups or areas even of gardening that are still underrepresented in the media?
Media and Recognition in Horticulture
00:26:13
Speaker
Oh God, yeah. I mean, yes, the fight is not won by any stretch. And in the UK at the moment, the biggest kind of drum that people are beating, as I see it in horticultural industry, aside from this sort ah sustainability and, you know, kind of wildlife gardening is, um, championing gardeners themselves because they still get massively overlooked. They're underpaid, they're undervalued and, yeah you know, particularly John Little in this country, but, um,
00:26:40
Speaker
you know, there's another person that has been on my podcast called Dave Warmer. And he's very, very much on the side of the gardener and saying, you know, look, when you put these magazines, these, these pictures of these gardens in these shiny magazines, what you're not mentioning in is the labour behind it, and the value that that labour brings. um And, you know, so it's quite often the designer who's in the spotlight. um And then the the horticulturists who who actually make the editorial decisions on the ground, they execute the maintenance or the the garden care plans, whatever you want to call them, um you know, and they're the ones flagging up when things are going right and things are going wrong. And yet, you know, they might get a feature in ah a magazine like Gardens Illustrated, but it's generally not written about, you know, how much kind of work goes into those schemes and into keeping them looking good and keeping them evolving over time to to adapt to the sort of changing changing situations in the garden. So, yes, I think for me the undervalue of gardens gardeners themselves is is a big thing.
00:27:43
Speaker
On those very glossy magazine kind of features and whatever, they're very, like, stylised and the gardens aren't often – mean, obviously they exist, right? But they're not – realistic in a lot of ways they're almost unattainable and i think it kind of gives you know what you're talking to the general gardener a little bit of uh alienation from like what their garden looks like um just on virtue the fact of you know editorial selection of photos that has missed out that bald patch and you know all that kind of thing i think personally i think we could do more in the media to like highlight imperfection a little bit in in gardening and I think that's the beauty of social media though we do get to see a little bit more of that as well.
00:28:31
Speaker
I mean I think that as consumers of media as well though there is a the onus is on us to be sensible consumers and to realise that a lot of these things we're being shown are aspirational rather than ultimately achievable um you know so so we have to bring a little bit of our own informed thinking to the party and wouldn for you know yeah yeah And a lot of people are not very good at that. um no you know so So we have to just go, well, that's beautiful. And you know I interviewed um Steph Mahon, the editor of Gardens Illustrated a while back. And I said her, is there a typical Gardens Illustrated garden that you will photograph? And she said, yes. you know And when you think about it, if you're doing a double page spread in a magazine, you need a garden that you can photograph from a certain you know way back. And it has to have a good view garden. And it has to be structured so that the camera can capture everything. If you then went to a garden where there were a lot of trees and the planting was kind of low level or you couldn't get that panoramic picture, then it's not going to make it to a magazine. So we have to realize as consumers how much editing goes into presenting you with these finished products and say, OK, well, that's, you know, I'm maybe I'm going to dip into that magazine. I'm going to take what I need from it.
00:29:47
Speaker
But I'm going to understand as well at the same time that this is not reality. and But we need to do that across all media. And I think, I hope people are becoming more savvy, but I'm not convinced on that.
00:30:00
Speaker
Maybe they're not. I'm not convinced either, to be honest. I mean, I think, I mean, we, both of us have studied media and I think that that is intrinsically kind of taught that critical thinking. Um, I mean, I feel like it should be a part of like the general school curriculum and I hope it is slowly seeping in, but speaking of media though, you are completely self-produced independent media through and through.
00:30:27
Speaker
How important has that been to your show and podcast and, and and the way you work? Yeah, it's been it's been very important. um It's very it's what stopped me monetizing the podcast, in all honesty. And it's what keeps it a hobby rather than a business. um Because I, I have thought long and hard. I've had conversations with people whose opinions are massively valuable.
00:30:53
Speaker
and I don't know if I can make money off it without feeling compromised in some way or another um you know and I've I have accepted sponsorship you know I'm currently looking for sponsors for the insect of the week segment that I've that has just restarted um yeah I don't know it's it's a tough one it for the sustainability of the podcast perhaps I should be looking at it for the you know for the impact the podcast could have perhaps I should be looking at monetizing but The only money that I get at the moment is from people who donate vi via Patreon.
00:31:28
Speaker
and And, you know, it's nice to have their money. It pays for pays for somebody to edit for the podcast and just polish the final thing, and you know, audio quality wise. And it pays for things like, you know, maybe updates to the website and the hosting fees. um And it, I mean, it doesn't cover all of that, but it it helps definitely. And I'm very grateful to them. And they just give me the money without any expectation.
00:31:52
Speaker
that I will give them something else. They're just paying to support me, which is a nice model, but I don't know, you know, maybe I could build on that. Perhaps I could, but it's, um, yeah, it's very important to be independent for me anyway, because it means I can just say most things, but everyone's got constraints on them. I mean, I can't go on my podcast and start, you know, taking down big organizations or, or, kind of saying things are going to be detrimental to the charity that I work for. You know, I do have to think, everybody has to think about what they're saying. um You know, and I'm lucky because I am quite free to say what i want. um But at the same time, I know everyone's got, you know, got there got their things that keep them in check, rightly or wrongly. um
00:32:41
Speaker
But independent media is is where it's at, really. We can't, we cannot function. We can't go forward as a society without it because our traditional media is is so utterly rotten, in my opinion.
00:32:54
Speaker
So, um yeah, I mean, it's got so many people. pulling the strings that it's just ah just this just utter nonsense nowadays. I mean, you can't really trust anything that you are seeing on television or reading as not kind of being biased. But what has been some of the beautiful opportunities that you've had from your long, illustrious running podcast?
00:33:17
Speaker
Oh, um I mean, loads of lovely things. um I've been invited to things like book launches with the most amazing other people and, you know, amazing writers. I've got gigs doing talks and um like I've got a writing retreat coming up. So that's come off the back of the podcast. And I've, you know, just become, I suppose, more well known in the industry um And I've got some incredible friendships out of it because people will come up to me and say, oh, I've heard podcast. And, you know, it just starts a conversation. And people that have been guests on the podcast have been have become really, really good friends. So um i wouldn't change that for the world. It's been lovely. You know, it's just kept my hand in as well. When sometimes if I'm in deepest, darkest rural Sussex and, you know, I've got my head down doing my work,
00:34:10
Speaker
I don't always get out to lots of gardening events like I used to and I don't go to many learning and kind of learning opportunities as I used to. And that's part of it that I miss. But I still managed to keep in touch virtually because I'm still reaching out to people across the world, you know, on a weekly basis. So that's just been the absolute best part of it. And and I do love it. If I didn't love it, I i certainly wouldn't do it because I'm not one of them people really that does things out of a sense of duty. So, you know, I must I must really like it.
00:34:42
Speaker
on some level to still be here 369 episodes later yeah yeah and i've got no i've got no intention like i've given it up and people say to me oh please don't stop and i'm like i i'm not stopping ah you know and it's like get like keel over. I'm not stopping anytime soon. I don't. I love that. How good on Do you have a sunny space in your garden that you just don't know what to do with?
00:35:06
Speaker
Well, I have a treat for you. A free perennial garden design that you can download right now. It's full of colour and year-round interest, and the best part is that it's pollinator and wildlife attracting.
00:35:21
Speaker
It's been designed with the UK climate in mind, but I know I've got listeners across the globe. So if you're in the southern states of Australia or the northern part of the US, this is the design for you.
00:35:33
Speaker
You can download your free perennial garden design, as well as my free Australian native garden design at the link in the description. Has it been a favourite guest or topic you've covered?
00:35:46
Speaker
Oh, I mean... I love all of them in their their own little way. They're all fab. piece be ah The one that my my good friend, Andrew Fisher-Tomlin, whom I believe is a ah previous guest of yours. Yes. and He always laughs at the um Human Ewer episode, which is about composting loose, and that always makes him smile. But, yeah, no, i've had I've had, like, the absolute cream of the crop of the horticultural world. Yeah, really have.
00:36:19
Speaker
I love, I think they're all brilliant and I've couldn't even start to name names. You know, there's there's so many legends and so many so many good, like, if you go back, i don't do it i don't eat I don't do it ever. But when you look back at the catalogue, like if I have to sort of go, you know, I don't know, update the website or something, or somebody asked me what episode number of this guest was, and I do have to go back, I go, oh, my God, there's been so so many incredible people. There's just now this kind of, like, catalogue of, incredible voices from horticulture. And I take no credit for any of it because it's all of them. You know, it's all of them and the generosity of their time and with their knowledge, um you know, and just taking the chance of talking to me, especially in the beginning. I mean, a lot of these people didn't know me from Adam. They were like, oh, yeah, well, OK, fine, we'll do it. And, you know, great. And but actually, when you look at look at the catalogue, there is just this huge, vast
00:37:20
Speaker
repository of horticultural voices and and that is something I think you know there there really is some legends in there. ah There really is. And some and like, it's, it's, it's just a roller deck. So you could almost just search any kind of topic and you'll find something of interest or, you know, some information, some gold nuggets throughout your entire catalog. It's, it's, it's so, it's actually so valuable and you should take credit for it because you've put it all together and you've taken and dedicated your time to doing that as well. So um i think, I think you should definitely take
Therapeutic Gardening and Future Aspirations
00:37:51
Speaker
credit. but Let's talk about therapeutic gardening. What is therapeutic gardening to you?
00:37:57
Speaker
What therapeutic gardens do you? Yeah, it's a good question. um And i always think that it's summed up really well. So when I started out, I did some training with Thrive, who are the charity in this country that provide our formal training for therapeutic horticulturists.
00:38:14
Speaker
And one of the guys there, Damien, he explained it as it's not horticultural therapy in this country. We call it social and therapeutic horticulture because what you're doing is you're providing a space for therapeutic activities to take place. You're not actually structuring a therapy around horticulture. So for me, a therapeutic garden can be anything where people feel safe and comfortable and can express themselves and socialise. So it doesn't actually, you'll get a lot of books about horticultural therapy gardens and how to design them. But when unless you start doing it, you you won't know what's going to work for you and you won't know what's going to work for the people that come to site and you you won't know what's going to work for that site. So they develop, I think, over time and change over time, despite your original kind of plans and best intentions. So I think a therapeutic garden is one that it it has to make people feel in some way comfortable and safe, but that doesn't mean putting, you know, a wall up so you can sit with your back to it, which is a kind of traditional trope in therapeutic gardening. That doesn't have to happen. I mean, here where I work, we've got ah big open fields and, you know, it's very, it it could feel very exposed, but it doesn't because of the structure of the flower beds and the way that we kind of, um,
00:39:38
Speaker
you know, we the way that we engage with the site um and the fact that we have little bits so of little pockets where people go off to, and you know, and either have a cup of tea or have just a moment on their own.
00:39:50
Speaker
um So it's, it ah there is no hard and fast rules for it um other than to say that it's it's got to be it's got to be welcoming. And I don't know, i can't sum that vibe up. um I went and gave a talk yesterday. And the the person that I went to, she said, she said, it it's not a buzz about the place. It's just a quiet hum. And you feel it when you go there. And I've had people come and I've said this before, I've got a couple of friends who've got children with autism, and they've bought them here. And one of them, she came and she said,
00:40:26
Speaker
I doubt we'd be here for more than five minutes because he just can't settle today. You know, i can't get him to stay in one place. And, you know, 30 minutes later, she's still here and her son's, you know, traipsing around the garden having a lovely time. And it's just got this vibe here that, you know, people feel and and and people have said it so many times. It's not just us imagining it. You know, it's very true. People come and they feel And they say, I felt I just felt very relaxed. And they'll say, this is my safe space. And they they'll want to have meetings with maybe health care professionals here or with other people that they've got to meet with because they feel comfortable. um And I can't sum up what that is. I think it's a combination of the landscape that surrounds us. So it's very green and open and verdant. I think it's a combination of of the people that are here and the fact that they're welcoming and they're very low key and calm.
00:41:19
Speaker
um And we've always got constant supply of tea and biscuits and homemade cake. So, you know, you put all of those things in together and it just kind of seems to work its magic. That's lovely. How much does like a sensory garden play into the therapeutic space or is it really just more about the people themselves?
00:41:41
Speaker
It's about the people because it's about their interpretation of the garden. um And so what works for one person might not work for another. And you might put something in and it never gets remarked on. And yet you think it's going to be this fantastic source of sensory stimulation. And then you might put something in that you've just bunged in because didn't have anywhere else to put it. And someone would come up and go I really love the way that does, the you know, X, Y and z and it really works for me. so You know, it's lovely to think as a designer that I'm influencing people and I'm sure but in many ways I am. But in in lots of unexpected ways, I am too. So you just, you can't really predict how people are going to react. You can give them, you can give them what you think is a, you know, a sensory space or an aesthetically lovely space.
00:42:32
Speaker
And you get the most surprising reactions out of people. um And no two people are the same. So I think, you know, you just have to yeah don't use your gut instinct a lot as a human. you know, you can feed in as ah as a fellow human and you'll understand what works for you. And that will, you know, that will kind of echo for other people, but you can't be too prescribed about it. You have to go go with the flow and just, you know, I kind of, I think put in when people express an interest, then you can,
00:43:02
Speaker
you can follow that, you know, and facilitate that as well. I think, I think that's what we're good at. We're good at facilitating people's needs and preferences, um, as individuals. And we'll, we will always try and do that. What has gardening taught you about life? I think it's, I think it's given me my place in the world and within the natural world, which is quite comforting. Um, and I think it's made me a lot more spiritual. That was always there, that side of me. i was always, um, I've I listened to a podcast called Rune Soup and um
00:43:36
Speaker
the the is is Gordon is the host. And he his first question to his guests is, were you a weird kid? And I was always a weird kid. I was always a bit old and, you know, had lots of kind of strange experiences. um And I think that being in the garden has made that made a bit more sense than,
00:43:58
Speaker
for me um and now i understand that i'm part of a like a bigger cycle and i probably have reconciled myself to you know the whole idea of dying um and living and seasons and you know not overthinking things and just trying to go with it a little bit more not control stuff quite as much um so yeah it's it's given me a lot on that front That's beautiful, being a part of kind of the rhythms of life, I suppose. Yeah, definitely. What's next for you?
00:44:30
Speaker
Oh, that's a good question, isn't it? I don't know. don't know. genuinely don't know. I mean, like, I'm one of them people kind of does things and then I'll go, like, I'm bored of that.
00:44:45
Speaker
I'm going to off and do something completely different. So, you know, if if in five years' time I've become a DJ or something, don't be shocked. Yeah. but I'm trying not to.
00:44:55
Speaker
I'm trying not to do that because i have this I have this thread of horticulture that weaves itself through my life my life for the last maybe 20 years. And it's I can still adapt it to keep myself interested. and There's still new challenges on this front. um That's what's beautiful about the industry, isn't it?
00:45:16
Speaker
yeah, you can, you can totally pivot, you can totally change what you do within it. And you'll still got, you've still got that thread running through it. So yeah, I don't know. But I'm always looking for any challenge. I'm always like, right, we might find you dropping botanical beats or something, you know, you just don't know. i mean Or I might just be deciding that I'm getting a bit lazy in my old days and be like, well, actually, um, you know, I'm not really gonna, I'm not gonna keep challenging myself and making my life difficult i might just settle into a groove and yeah who knows who knows don't i sarah thank you so much for your time i've actually adored this conversation it's been fantastic oh you're very welcome it's lovely to talk to you
00:45:59
Speaker
Thank you so much for joining me today. If you like the show, don't forget to hit the follow or subscribe button. Tell a friend or two, or maybe even give the show five-star rating and a review.
00:46:09
Speaker
If you want more Gardener's Lodge content, you can find our website, our Instagram, and our TikTok in the show notes below this episode. The Gardener's Lodge podcast is a growing media production.