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Wild Britain with Tom France
87 Plays4 days ago
Tom France is a passionate Ecologist from the United kingdom. This conversation is about all things british ecology, from re-wilding to the state of the british landscape.
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Transcript
Introduction and Acknowledgement of Traditional Lands
00:00:08
Speaker
Step into the gardener's lodge with me, Michael Hoare. Let's explore the fascinating world of gardening, nature and ecology through conversations with experts, thought leaders, passionate enthusiasts, and of course, some real good friends, all from the cozy heart of the lodge.
00:00:25
Speaker
Come on in.
00:00:28
Speaker
The Gardener's Lodge podcast is created on the traditional lands of the Darug and Gundungurra people in the Blue Mountains. We pay respect to all First Nations elders, past and present.
00:00:40
Speaker
G'day and welcome to the
Michael's UK Journey and Perspective Shift
00:00:41
Speaker
show. So a lot has changed in my world in the past 12 months. I have moved to the other side of the globe, now calling the yeah UK ah home. I'm slowly finding my feet here and it's actually offering me the opportunity to learn so much about the landscape here.
00:00:57
Speaker
and kind of remove myself from that sort of Australian-centric way of thinking when it comes to the natural world. And I'm really enjoying it, actually. I'm really enjoying re-evaluating my perspectives and repositioning them into a more global context.
Interview with Tom France: British Ecology
00:01:14
Speaker
Which brings me to today's episode. I am talking with Tom France. He's a British ecologist who happens to produce content teaching the public about the wonders of the UK flora and fauna. with an emphasis on needing to embrace wild spaces.
00:01:33
Speaker
So look, this is my first interview on UK soils, and I couldn't think of a better person to talk to, to teach me the ropes, lay down the law when it comes to British ecology. So before we jump straight into the interview, let's ask Tom our six rapid fire questions.
00:01:51
Speaker
Are you ready? Yes. Okay, favorite plant? ah Cornflower. Favourite way to connect with nature? temperate rainforest. Being in one. Being in one. Yeah. Okay. Brilliant. No, that's fine. Actually, well, here you go. You might've already answered it. What is the most beautiful garden or natural landscape that you've ever visited?
00:02:12
Speaker
ah a tiny, a remaining fragment of the Caledonian rainforest in Scotland. It's just, ah it really is. It's so different and just so rare.
00:02:24
Speaker
Amazing. going to have to visit. Now, you're not really a gardener, but what is your favorite garden tool? Put me on the spot there.
00:02:33
Speaker
I guess a trowel. Perfect. Yeah. Every man's tool, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. And if you could be one, a plant or an animal? I'd be an animal because, you know, i'd I'd have more control and probably not be mown down.
00:02:48
Speaker
When you're stuck and looking to research anything garden or nature related, where do you go for the most sound and trusted information? Obviously, chat GBT.
00:03:01
Speaker
na No, I'm only joking. Kew Gardens. Kew Gardens have an amazing ah research website where you can basically put in most plants and it tells you you're not there ah when they were discovered, ah all the Latin stuff, that natural distribution. it's you know And I think that is something that, sorry, this is meant be a short answer, um people should be doing. If you're buying a plant for your garden, look it up first and see if it's good or not.
00:03:28
Speaker
Good idea. Right plant, right place is what I'm hearing there. Yeah. Yes, um I should
Tom's Ecological Passion and Teaching Transition
00:03:33
Speaker
have said that. That's much more concise. No, no, that's fine. How did you first fall in love with the natural world? It actually happened quite late, surprisingly, I think. it was I think I was about 16 years old.
00:03:44
Speaker
I was sat in a in my gran's living room looking out at the window and she was looking at the tree at the end of the garden. She was telling me, she was like, I planted that tree. And I i just said, I thought to myself, as like,
00:03:57
Speaker
I have no idea what that, you know, what is that? So asked her, Karen, what's that? and she said, that's a horn, that's a hornbeam tree. And I thought to myself, well, that sounds pretty cool. And then I realized in that, in that moment, I had no idea what anything was, you know, I'd spent, you know, my whole childhood out in nature, you know, really enjoying it. And and obviously had that basic appreciation that, you know, everyone's got.
00:04:20
Speaker
I think. But I then realized, oh my God, there's so much I don't know. And then I kind of became the obsessed with trying to find things out. um And I started, I guess, the old fashioned way. um You know, start with the, I i' think my gran had a book, luxury tree identify identification guide from 1960s, went out into the woods, had no idea what I was doing and i all kind of stemmed from there really. And then, you know, I started studying at university and
00:04:51
Speaker
Um, yeah, no, I just can't shut up about it. to yeah Don't worry. I'm the exact same. I guess everyone sort of has that moment, don't they, where they kind of look around them and go, oh God, there's a huge world out there that I know absolutely nothing about. I think in my kind of world that often happens when people maybe buy their first house or end up helping someone in the garden that does know a little bit more than them. And they kind of go like, Oh God,
00:05:18
Speaker
Wow. There's like, I thought I knew everything, but i I know nothing now, I guess. So from there, you've then obviously studied, you work in the field.
00:05:29
Speaker
When did you decide that you were just going to start to teach people about flora and flora? Uh-huh. I think I was just always trying to do that with my friends, my girlfriend, you know, we go on the walks and I wouldn't shut up about it. And I think someone said to me, I can't remember who it was, but they just said, you need to stop telling other people about this. You know, we've, we've listened to you enough, you know, no and I think it, you know, it's just, yeah, basically. Tell someone who cares. Yeah, exactly. And, yeah um, and you know, it's something I'd always, you know, I watched, you know, like we all do a lot, watch loads of content and I just thought,
00:06:04
Speaker
well, you know, this is something I guess I could do. And i got I kind of started it, you know, to kind of further my career, you know, obviously to get a job in ecology is really difficult. Yeah. in the In the field, you know, so I just thought this is something else I could do. And then, yeah, it kind of just took off from there and, you know, i've built a really nice community of people.
Role at Environment Agency and Misconceptions
00:06:22
Speaker
And it's, um yeah, I really enjoy making the videos and the content because you get to be quite creative with it as well.
00:06:30
Speaker
um And I think it's just, it's, it's generally pretty positive i mean you can obviously take a negative spin on stuff especially with biodiversity loss but you know it's in and there's there's just so much stuff on social media which is really negative so i it's just nice to you know put something out pauses most of the time that's positive anyway Yeah. And I mean, a lot of your stuff is positive and it's like super educational and you have this like really amazing way of balancing kind of like entertainment with education. and I think that's probably why you've been able to build like quite a strong little community around you. But of course, in real life, you do work in the field and actually you have kind of the most like badass title, which is ah environmental crime officer. Is that right? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. yeah What is an environmental crime officer?
00:07:21
Speaker
Well, so i um I work for the Environment Agency um and that's the government body that is you know looking after the environment in the UK. And I'm currently working in the water industry sector, which is obviously i not got the best for publicity at the moment.
00:07:38
Speaker
yeah of the work that that i'm doing is it's really important uh and we really need to be ensuring that you know our waters aren't being polluted because just so important to all of our ecosystems habitats you know so much is water related and so that's yeah that's the work i'm doing currently which um which is is tough we're in a diff you know we are in ah in a difficult position but we're we are pushing forward and we're going to really start to get some seriously good results in the in the coming years, I'm sure.
00:08:07
Speaker
So is that kind of like investigating spillages and dumping and that sort of thing? Yeah. So it's wide ranging. So we in the so we do it's land and water. So agriculture, water spills, any kind of pollution events, like responding to events as well. But in the in the obviously, of you know, me we've all read the news and in the last couple of years.
00:08:29
Speaker
It's been really clear that water industry have been dropping the ball for for quite some time, under-investing and um really causing damage to our ecosystem. So there's been a real push from the government and the EA to really to start to um to sort this out, really. and And that has to come with harder regulation and enforcement.
00:08:49
Speaker
So it's, of course yeah, it's I really enjoy it. Incident response is really cool. and going You know, if there's an environmental event, like going out, responding, that kind of thing. And there's a lot more to be done. But um yeah, you know, it's great to be able to make, to really start to make a difference. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I suppose that leads us back to your social media stuff as well. Like you clearly have like a strong passion to make change and to teach and inform and make the world a better place.
00:09:19
Speaker
With your social media content, like what are some of the biggest misconceptions about British nature that you find yourself correcting the most? You know, it's it's such a difficult one with the UK because we are, you know, we are a nation of animal lovers, wildlife lovers. You know, we we watch Spring Watch and Awesome Watch every year. And, you know, everyone loves going out to the countryside, going on long walks. And I think that's really...
00:09:43
Speaker
you know, innate in in in ah in most people in the UK. And so I think most people would be shocked to learn about just how degraded and the state that we're in, really, the state of our nature in the UK.
00:09:57
Speaker
um And I think really that is such a barrier to solving some of some of the key issues that we face, particularly with ah with biodiversity loss. And I think if people realized just where we were, I think there I think there'd be big protests. i think there I think people would be up in arms because yeah you know the UK, we have the highest number of charities, NGOs, ah wildlife NGOs anywhere in the world.
00:10:25
Speaker
um you know People give millions of pounds every year to nature-based causes, and yet we're still... know better. In fact, you could say, in fact, we are in many, in almost all metrics, all metrics you know, biodiversity is on decline. I think one in seven a species in the UK is threatened with extinction.
00:10:45
Speaker
And yet, wow you know, no one's really talking about that or, you know, no one really realizes that. And and that was and that was exactly the same for me. You know, I i remember, you know, as as as a teenager going for walks in the Lake District or Snowdonia, you know, mountainous regions in the UK and looking at the hills and, you know, seeing, you know,
00:11:07
Speaker
beautiful peaks, but covered in no vegetation. And, you know, and there'll be, there'll be a tiny, there'll be a few, that last tree, like high up on a cliff out out of reach from any sheep or wild deer. And obviously I didn't, you know, just think, oh, wow, how's that tree managed to, you know, there isn't a tree for miles. How's that managed to get there? And I, you know, I just didn't realize that actually what I was looking at is a completely modified artificial environment that we have changed over thousands of years and yeah really it's a you know it's a ecological desert what i was looking at but obviously you know you're still up in the hills you're still out in the in the you know wild you know
00:11:49
Speaker
quotation marks and and you feel you still get that that feeling of remoteness so you still you know that feeling that you kind of want when you're out in the wind wilderness you still kind of get it but then and that's the problem it's it's almost like it's like Pandora's box in a way because once you know Once you realize what you're looking at, then you you know what you've lost. And that is depressing. And that's but was kind of something I've been struggling with with my content.
00:12:16
Speaker
It's because I want to kind of remain positive. But I think people do really really need to realize what we've lost, what we're missing. And because if we know what we're missing, we know what we can bring back.
UK's Controlled Environments and Planning Laws
00:12:28
Speaker
and I think for most, you know, because obviously you've got, everyone knows that pollution is bad. Everyone knows that intensive agriculture is bad. You know, all of the main drivers of biodiversity loss in the UK and around the world, we all know them and people don't really need to be told them all the time, particularly in the UK. But they do really have pretty obvious solutions.
00:12:52
Speaker
We don't see it that way because we don't see the destruction. We don't feel the need but to implement, you know, wide scale biodiversity restoration, landscape restoration, because we don't see it.
00:13:07
Speaker
We don't, we we you know, all we see is, you know green fields, hedgerows, and we think that that looks great. And it does, you know. It's still beautiful. looks nice. Yeah, yeah.
00:13:18
Speaker
2026 is upon us and I have limited spaces open for my garden coaching and consultation sessions. Whether you're looking for help with plant identification, advice on care and maintenance, or tips for improving your soil and plant nutrition, I'm here to help.
00:13:35
Speaker
As a garden designer, I'll help you think creatively about your outdoor space, offering tools and ideas to give you a fresh perspective on your garden projects. My coaching and consultation sessions can happen right in your garden if you live in the yeah UK, or online if you're anywhere else in the world.
00:13:55
Speaker
My goal is to meet you where you are and support your unique garden journey. Whether you're just starting out, looking to refine your skills, or simply need a second opinion, or someone just to bounce ideas off, you have found your space.
00:14:11
Speaker
Head to the link in this episode description or shoot me an email at hello at thegardenerslodge.co.uk.
00:14:23
Speaker
I guess it's it's an interesting thing, like coming from Australia, I'm in the position that I've been here four months now. um And right I see, know, I go out into the countryside. It's beautiful, but it's obviously starkly different. It's very manufactured. It's very man-made. It's very controlled environments.
00:14:42
Speaker
really um and you know i come up against planning like we're potentially looking at buying a block land maybe building but you kind of come up against these planning laws that are like you need to protect the countryside you need to protect the green fields and it makes me think what four Not that I think we should be building houses there, but, you know, why are you protecting and encourage like and trying to entrench something that is so man-made in the first place?
00:15:13
Speaker
It kind of, it kind of, it just confuses me a little bit. And on that note as well, you've just got my brain whirling now. um that's fine yeah I think people also look at Australia in a way and,
00:15:26
Speaker
think of that as a very natural place, a very untouched place. But if you hammer down into the Australian landscape, it's actually also a very controlled environment.
00:15:38
Speaker
Well, once was. um you know Indigenous people have lived on the continent for... 60,000 years. They consistently burnt um on rotation, burnt the vegetation so that they could hunt animals, so that they could um grow their own crops and things like that. Of course, when yeah white people landed, they just saw bush and went, well, this is untouched. They're doing nothing here kind of thing. It's actually completely inaccurate, but it does make you think that
00:16:11
Speaker
the I guess the destruction that you're talking about here is actually more so the destruction caused in the last 200 years post-industrialization and less so, I guess, the the slow farming, the slow use of the land that, like, of course us as human beings need to use the land in a certain way to survive. But I think one thing that a lot of Indigenous cultures have done, right, is that they also give back. And I guess I think that we have lost a lot of the giving back.
00:16:42
Speaker
Yeah, no, really lovely, really well put. um Yeah, I find the same frustrations in the UK where we are obsessed with preservation.
00:16:54
Speaker
You know, yeah we we love and it's all about heritage. And and and and this is something that I struggle with and and talking about it because there's a place in Wales called the Cambrian Mountains. And some people call it the Cambrian Desert because it's them in the middle of the Wales and it's just been sheep farms for 500 years.
00:17:14
Speaker
And sheep are not nature of the UK and they are aggressive grazers and they will slowly destroy forests because they love they love nothing more than fresh tree saplings. So over time, you know, trees stop growing because the sheep eat them and then the wood slowly disappear. And that's what's happened all around the uplands in the UK.
00:17:34
Speaker
But to a farmer or many people in the UK who are proud of our countryside, they will look at that landscape of you know beautiful stone fences, you know the rolling hills, and they will say that is a cultural landscape.
00:17:47
Speaker
you know This is heritage and and farmers used to know you know they'd have a name for every single field. And so that's, and that is so ingrained in us in the UK, this idea of, you know, the, the rural ideal landscape of neatness and tightness. And we were obsessed.
00:18:06
Speaker
Um, we were absolutely obsessed with maintaining and preserving nature, preserving it exactly how it is. And it kind of in our minds, how it always has been. And,
00:18:18
Speaker
I just find that so frustrating because, you know, nature is dynamic. it's It's always changing. It's always changing from one state to another. And then there'll be something else to come in and, you know, you know you you've you've got have a grassland which will become and turn into shrubland and then that will turn into a small woodland and then that will turn it into a larger woodland. But then, know, something will come over, those trees will then fall down and things will change. And, you know, and it's who are we to decide what what the best course is in many ways, because I would argue that we, I don't think we understand all the intricacies of how nature works, all of the tiny little interactions between all the different species that we have.
00:19:00
Speaker
And so, i I think if we're claiming to be preserving nature, then we I think we're claiming to say we get it, we know what's best, we understand everything and therefore we decide.
Rewilding and Ecological Challenges
00:19:12
Speaker
And i don't think that's right.
00:19:14
Speaker
um And i I find it really frustrating. It's such a humanist kind of trope where you you think you're the center of the universe and you think that you know that the way that things are supposed to look and be and behave. Totally agree. And um well you know and you and you see that in gardening as well well, I'm sure we can get onto that as well. but um Oh, yeah.
00:19:31
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I used to live in Brighton um and we have the South Downs National Park, ah which again is and parts of it are lovely, but so much of it is just barren agricultural land that's been heavily grazed and You know, you'd go for walks and you wouldn't see you wouldn't see any wildflowers, you wouldn't see any insects in the height of summer.
00:19:53
Speaker
and he just And you'd find that... I would then start to find that so depressing because I could see the potential of this landscape. And then you go on the South Downs National Park website and it says, South Downs National Park, preserving the heritage of the English countryside and I'm thinking to myself what the heritage of of destruction and and you know nothingness no just food production yeah yeah yeah and of course yeah it's it's very difficult food production is very important and there needs to be a balance but right and and I and we can get onto this if we talk about rewilding I don't really want to see viable agricultural land being taken out of production. I don't think that makes sense for anybody. And I think farmers do need to be protected. And I think the current deals, particularly the deal with Australian beef farms right now is terrible for the UK and terrible for local farmers.
00:20:45
Speaker
However, I think there needs to be a much better balance. Well, let's, dive into that let's talk about rewilding for me it's an interesting concept because okay in a garden sense right what are you doing you're planting things you're kind of letting things be um and kind of go wild i suppose but the reality of the matter is it's not ever going to be wild is it it's still a garden I guess in more larger scale landscapes, rewilding might look like reinstalling potentially an apex predator or a certain animal that's within the food chain that's been missing. I know that there's a lot of talk in the media at the moment about beavers and bringing beavers back into the British landscape, which I think is pretty cool actually. But what does rewilding really mean to you?
00:21:37
Speaker
It's a pretty hot topic in the UK right now, and that's great. I remember when I first heard about it, it was kind of fringe, and now everyone seems to be talking about it. But it's definitely been massively polarized, which is also problematic.
00:21:49
Speaker
And I think people have, they're here rewilding, and now they think, oh my God, they're bringing wolves, they're bringing bears back. you know We're all going to die. This is terrible for farming. you know Everyone's going to lose their livelihoods, that kind of thing. And this is a big threat to the traditional British countryside and way of life.
00:22:06
Speaker
um and i think it's not that it's it's just not that serious um or that no ah deep for lack of a better word I think rewilding for me, you know, obviously, yes, at the top of it, you have got the bringing back apex predators or ecosystem engineers or anything that has been ah is no longer there that used to live, you know, used to be native, which I think is important and something to aim towards. But for me, rewilding eological e ecological restoration, habitat restoration, all of these things to me mean the same thing.
00:22:41
Speaker
What do we have and what have we lost? So what can we do in the shortest amount of time to get the, whatever you're trying to rewild habitat, ecosystem, landscape to a position where we can then take a step back, let go of the reins and let nature start take its course.
00:23:02
Speaker
I think so that, that, you know, that's kind of the idea is rewilding is kind of the idea that nature takes control. We kind of let nature do. what it should.
00:23:13
Speaker
And that is a lovely idea and it does work in the right place. So let's say, a you know, classic example, Napa state in um West Sussex, I believe that there was a, it was a agricultural farm right in the middle of the English countryside, the Southern countryside, they stopped farming.
00:23:30
Speaker
2000 and just did nothing and that was it's an incredible success story it looks like a british savannah it's a crazy alien landscape where you've got you know completely you know no fences shrubs and it it just looks weird and alien kind of what the uk should look like you know it's not all neat and tidy but that was successful because it's right in the middle of southern in england it's got seed sources, woodlands and plants and everything all around it in a pretty good you know ecological position. So if you sit back and do nothing, you know seeds will fall and and animals will come in and that you've got movement. And so that will be excessive if you do nothing.
00:24:12
Speaker
But then if you were go were to go to the Scottish Highlands, for example, which you know have have have been completely destroyed by agriculture and overgrazing for hundreds of years, pre-Industrial Revolution as well. Of course, that's better all up.
00:24:29
Speaker
ah If you were to do a secluded glen, which once would have been part of of the Great Caledonian Forest, of which now only 1% remains or less than,
00:24:40
Speaker
if you were to do nothing for 30 years there, not much would happen because there aren't there probably isn't a tree for a mile. yeah So in that you know in that sense, you have to get involved. You have to...
00:24:54
Speaker
you know you really need to start planting trees. You need to get, yeah, absolutely. But, and so you do, that but so you you would get the the, you try and take local seeds from remaining native trees and start a widespread tree planting campaign, probably put a deer and sheep fence around it for the first 10, 20 years, let it establish.
00:25:14
Speaker
And then after 20 years, you're in quite a good position. Then perhaps you can start to think about, okay, maybe we don't need to intervene as much. Maybe we can take the fence away. You've got to look at what you've got and and look what you've lost.
00:25:27
Speaker
But you also you need to realize, i think, that you we can't recreate the past. No. As much as we'd like to. You know, you've always got to set your baseline. um And and because the reason you can't recreate the past is because we humans exist and we exist how we are now, you know, with our roads and railways and cars and everything like that. And i think for any reworld rewilding strategy to be successful, it has to involve humans and there has to be space for us in that in that in that environment, whatever you're trying to restore or recreate. So it's an interesting thing to think about because i think there's probably very little will of governments or um counties to do these type of things unless they are for
00:26:16
Speaker
public use almost, you know, like you're talking about that ah Glen somewhere that's being rewilded, you know, there's little willpower, except if you're kind of a, you know, private company that's, you know, doing good or a private landholder. But if you wanted to do it on a large scale, it's not really going to happen unless it becomes probably some sort of park that then it can be handed over to the public to enjoy, you know, because it's that's just the way we think about things. And that's the way government works. Everything's got to be for someone as opposed to for nature, which is a shame, really.
00:26:55
Speaker
yeah i totally agree and that's something i struggle with and it's something you know that i you really want to keep bringing into my content but it is it's a difficult thing to argue to someone who just doesn't understand or doesn't get it it's it because you need You do need to have the passion for it, really.
00:27:14
Speaker
And then, you know, with content making, you've got maximum attention of 30 seconds to 60 seconds. You know what I mean? So it's like, how do you distill all of this information that you've learned into that short burst that people can understand the entire concept of?
00:27:34
Speaker
And yeah to be honest, that's why doing social media for myself ended up being a very frustrating process because you know you've got all of these grand ideas and none of them can just fit neatly into a cute little box that people go, oh I've learned something. You know what I mean?
00:27:51
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. i totally agree. I mean, that's why i'm I mean, I think next year i'm going to be starting. I'm planning to start to do some more longer form content because you get so engagement that way. um And yeah, I mean, for me, it's the it's that three second rule with Instagram where or any kind of short form media that you've got to capture that attention in three seconds or or they've swiped away and you've you've gone. um And that's why.
00:28:17
Speaker
you know, you have to do silly things like jump out in front of a tree or do handstand or a cartwheel like I do to kind of grab someone's attention. Yeah. And you do it well. You do it well. Thank you. I try my best.
00:28:29
Speaker
Generally, my girlfriend's direction, she's just telling me, she's like, do something really silly. And I'm like, I I can probably try and do that. It's always good to have supportive partner like that. Well, yeah, it's much harder when you're you're in in a park, in London Park on your own with the tripod. Yeah. You're getting those weird looks. It's a lot harder. But, you know,
00:28:47
Speaker
think I can do this. Anyway. You do it anyway. I was to say, we were just also talking about native plants, you know, and I think in Australia, we prize our natives. We put them up on a pedestal. We kind of, more so, i would say, with the younger generations in kind of our age bracket, we kind of almost in Australia go, ooh, exotic plants, like no, get them away. Mostly because a lot of them are quite like terrible weeds and escaping to the bushland and all that kind of thing. how How do you think the general UK public think about natives and conceptualise the native species within the UK? Great, great question. And i think I think there's two answers. I think if you asked so a gardener, then they would have a very good idea of that of of what a native is and what isn't. If you ask the general person, I think they...
00:29:42
Speaker
I don't know, wouldn't perhaps, they'd have an idea, but it wouldn't mean too much to them. And I think it's one of the big reasons I started the social media is because I realized when I, you know, when I started my journey and I realized I didn't know what anything was, I then realized that that's there's a name for that called plant blindness.
00:30:02
Speaker
And it's a condition that basically everyone in the modern world seems to have unless you're interested in flowers or gardening, I think. And you know it comes back to that idea. we We love nature. We love seeing the green trees and the green hedgerows and the green everything and everything's green.
00:30:19
Speaker
But most people can't re-identify hardly any plants. And no and that's such ah that's such a problem because plant identification has been integral to human survival you know for for thousands of years you know it literally could have meant you know death or dinner really um and and and our brains
Public Awareness and Attitudes Towards Plants
00:30:43
Speaker
are designed we have some of the best eyesight in the animal kingdom we are incredibly well designed to recognize patterns and shapes and that's what we've been doing for millennia and then ah since the industrial revolution
00:30:55
Speaker
We've completely lost that, but that then causes kind of a lack of awareness naturally because you're, instead of seeing a beautiful hedgerow, let's say of of native, like a wildflower meadow, for example, of beautiful native plants, or you saw a ah patch of grassland that was covered in invasive species, to the average person, that looks the same.
00:31:17
Speaker
And so, and they might not know what's lost or what's gained. And so if you, and so if you, and if you don't know what something is, how can you care about it? And if you don't care about something, then you're not really gonna mind if that's that something has been lost.
00:31:32
Speaker
So so i sorry that was just a tangent I wanted to go on about plant blindness. I think it's something that is really important to tackle. And then, but back to your question about what the general public think about ah native plants. I think with gardeners, it can either go two ways.
00:31:50
Speaker
I think you know people are really passionate about gardening in the UK and people really know their stuff. And I think historically we've been obsessed with exotic plants in the UK. Yeah. you know we we um Yeah, I mean, the UK, massive coloniser, went all around the world, taking everyone's stuff and also everyone's plants and, you know, filling their gardens with the most beautiful exotic plants. And, you know, we have a really great, we're very lucky, we have a really good climate, which we can grow plants from all around the world.
00:32:21
Speaker
And... you know, programs like Gardeners World, they prize, you know, incredible and you know incredible ah non-native plants as well as native plants. And I think that actually native plants have suffered because of a people's love of gardening in many ways. You know, there there are so many plants.
00:32:39
Speaker
i mean, that this obviously then leads us on to invasive species, which yeah which I know a massive problem in Australia, but also a problem, big problem in the UK. The three big culprits, I guess, are rhododendron,
00:32:51
Speaker
I mean, that's the big one. Japanese knotweed is terrible. Giant hogweed. All of these were planted in rich gardens you know hundreds years ago. in the Victorian times, really, and have been allowed to spread. I think, in fact, rhododendron makes up 3% of our remaining woodland cover.
00:33:09
Speaker
which is just yeah something it's it's it's something shocking like that and of course it's um that's not it yeah it's I could go on about that but I won't we uh but well one thing I would say i think it's absolutely wild that you can still buy it in garden centers yeah and people are buying it not knowing because it let's face it it's got absolutely beautiful flowers of of so many different colors so many different varieties And, you know, it it does look great in gardens.
00:33:39
Speaker
ah In fact, I remember as a child, you my my grand near Wigan, there was this old country estate, and we used to run through, you know, huge, massive rhododendron bushes.
00:33:50
Speaker
And I used to think it was great. I had no idea. And I think that's the problem. And then I guess, yeah, going back to... um valuing native over non-native.
00:34:02
Speaker
it's that It's that issue because native plants, of course in Australia, is it's the same anywhere. Everything that's native to the UK has evolved or anywhere hasn't evolved together. And so they have evolved all those interactions, those links, which take thousands of years to to happen.
00:34:21
Speaker
And so the best thing, it sounds simple, the best thing for native wildlife is native wildlife. um And so we really need to start to see that in our gardens across the UK.
00:34:34
Speaker
Do you have a sunny space in your garden that you just don't know what to do with? Well, I have a treat for you. A free perennial garden design that you can download right now.
00:34:46
Speaker
It's full of colour and year-round interest, and the best part is that it's pollinator and wildlife attracting. It's been designed with the UK climate in mind, but I know I've got listeners across the globe. So if you're in the southern states of Australia or the northern part of the US, this is the design for you.
00:35:06
Speaker
You can download your free perennial garden design as well as my free Australian native garden design at the link in the description.
00:35:17
Speaker
you know It's interesting because I was doing some research on natives here and article or a press release or something like that basically saying that it doesn't natives don't matter in terms of building biodiversity, in terms of you know feeding pollinators and all that kind of thing.
00:35:35
Speaker
And i it kind of dumbfounded me a little bit because I went... What are they talking about? Like, it has to matter. It has to be, like, integral because these animals, insects, pollinators, birds, but they evolved to feed and have symbiotic relationships with certain plants.
00:35:55
Speaker
and if you're saying it doesn't matter, that just doesn't make sense to me. To me, again, yeah, alarm bells are ringing in my head as you said that. Yeah. I think that sounds, that does sound crazy. And it kind of goes against everything that I've, you know, researched and been taught throughout yeah studying and... and Well, no, well, let's let's well let's let's have a think about that. I mean, if they are just talking about pollen resources, I'm sure an argument can be made there.
00:36:21
Speaker
ah But it's all about, you know, yet the right non-natives. I think you have to, you can have, i'm you know, I'm not saying, I would never say don't have non-native plants in your garden. but you know um The UK, after all, if you're talking about the UK, we are an island that is, you know, impacted by ice ages every 90,000 years, you know,
00:36:42
Speaker
a glacier to two kilometers high comes down all the way down to middle england and just destroys everything and then goes away 90 000 years later so yeah really nothing's technically really native it's all kind of that european biome so yeah if you if you're planting something from france that doesn't actually isn't here at the moment you know that's fine really because everything will have evolved together but then if you're you know if you're planting from something from australia for example then I don't think that's going to be that probably won't be as beneficial to native wildlife because most wildlife would be like, well, what, what am I going to do with that? well For example, it's, um, flowers I see all of the time, really beautiful. Pelangoliums, uh, part of the geranium family, I believe. Yes. They're all from South Africa.
00:37:27
Speaker
Beautiful. Uh, but they have really long, um, Parts and their flower and the pollen's right at the very bottom. Sorry, parts is definitely not the correct scientific name.
00:37:39
Speaker
But all of our insects don't, yeah, all of our insects don't have long enough proboscis to get to the pollen. So essentially you've got, you know, and you'll see gardens full of these beautiful flowers useless for any native insect yeah you know and and there's so many examples of non-native plants like that which technically aren't invasive they're not outgrowing anything or you know and they're not running amok but they are you know you could and You could be a keen gardener and and think, i'm going to plant and I want to restore you know have a restoration garden and and plant all these plants. You could plant loads of loads of plants, but they could actually just be completely useless to our native wildlife.
00:38:26
Speaker
I guess, yes, you could have not you can have non-native plants that are definitely beneficial, but then I it always i'd always i would then bring it back to the oak tree.
00:38:37
Speaker
The oak tree in the UK, it's our favorite tree for so many reasons. It's the one tree that most almost anyone can recognize, even you know kids, you have everyone knows what it is. And it's also, i think, the most common pub name, the Royal Oak.
00:38:50
Speaker
Actually, it might be the red lion, but it was one of those two So everyone loves it. And um it supports, estimate, 2,300 different species of of animal or species in in some way and then you know that's that's incredible and then if you were to plant uh if you were to plant you know a eucalyptus tree for example from yeah from Australia how many species is that going to support a few nesting birds not that many insects you know and of course with non-natives they've always got the potential to become invasive which is I know something Australia I mean
00:39:28
Speaker
ah something Australia really has been so horribly impacted by.
Comparing UK and Australia's Environmental Issues
00:39:32
Speaker
Well, yes. But I would also say that Australian natives are like humongous environmental weeds across the world.
00:39:42
Speaker
um Eucalypts particularly, like actually, just got back from India. Eucalypts everywhere. Yeah, absolutely everywhere. And I mean, they were brought in for like timber production and like for good reasons and um all of that kind of thing. But like, you know, I sat down, i was, I went to a wedding and it was in between ceremonies and I sat down and was like, put on like music and it was like an Indian music video. And in the back of the music video, there's eucalypts on. Yeah.
00:40:14
Speaker
yeah um behind them rapping or whatever. ah And I was just, I was quite shocked. And and and even here, like there's ah quite a lot of um Australian natives that are weedy, particularly on the coast, and which is interesting. I guess it's like one of those things for me, at least I've got to kind of like so flick my mindset a little bit onto like, hang on, these things may not, aren't good everywhere, you know?
00:40:38
Speaker
yeah But definitely within Australia, we've definitely been impacted by a lot of exotic weeds coming in and that's why our biosecurity is now so tight getting into australia i'm sure probably seem border force um yeah no it's crazy i mean i um i went i haven't been to australia went to new zealand i know it's quite similar biosecurity it was absolutely crazy yeah they they made me take they take my boots off and they were scraping the bottles yeah then i was like oh my god yeah
00:41:11
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, we haven't got anything like that in the UK, I guess. no Things are coming in all the time. No, God, you walk through customs here and you just let no one. You can't even find anyone. um It's interesting, though, I think the fact that Australia does have such like strong biosecurity laws, but then has such like terribly weak environmental laws at the same time.
00:41:33
Speaker
It's quite quite an embarrassment to me, to be honest. like ah our current government has just like revised all the laws and actually has now brought in an environmental agency. And and yet native logging is still on the cards.
00:41:50
Speaker
You know, Australia has like some, where and we are in the midst of the biggest extinction crisis on Earth, um right in Australia, due to native logging, due to the fact that we're clearing remnant forests.
00:42:06
Speaker
So I think that there is you know something that the UK is doing well is that they are very protectionary around their what they'd call ancient forests, um ancient woodland rather. Whereas Australia, not knock it flat, build some tables out of it, probably just build some two by four timbers out of it and knock of couple of shitty houses of the last 20 years up and up from it. So there's a lot I love about Australia, but there's a lot further to go with it, particularly our environmental laws.
00:42:44
Speaker
The other thing with Australian weeds, um the other ultra frustrating thing with weeds in Australia is that a lot of them aren't fire resistant. 99% of them aren't fire resistant. And yet our native wildlife is ah Our native ah ah native flora is fire resistant, most of it.
00:43:07
Speaker
um And the number one way that we can eradicate a lot of these species is by burning, ah burning our land, just as Indigenous people previously had. There's so many benefits to burning the Australian landscape, but the ah government needs.
00:43:29
Speaker
still has this mindset that fire is bad, even though fire is a very, very natural part of particularly the Australian landscape, obviously not here in the UK. Um, but yeah, a lot of our weed problems could be very well eradicated in those dry areas that do support, um, burning. And, and, and I mean, I've spoken about this previously on other podcasts, but you know, we need to, within our landscape to help germination of seeds but it's it's just not happening and ah I hope one day that the newly installed Environmental Protection Agency will start to look at some of these things but um look I don't hold hope.
00:44:12
Speaker
sure So in Australia we have like a strong outdoor culture um you know camping, hiking, surfing, fishing And interestingly, like the bush is actually quite a dangerous place.
00:44:26
Speaker
uh, I mean, probably more, so more, more overblown than what I think, uh, in probably the British people's perceptions than it actually is yeah but it is very dangerous. Everything's going to kill you in Australia. Like that's right. and Not really. Probably the sun will kill you before anything else. You'll just get deydrated and get lost. um I guess like over here, i find that there is like, I feel people have a bit of like an aversion to nature, a bit of a, um, and keep it at arm's length. We stay out of there. Maybe that comes from kind of like, you know bad things happen in the woods type mentality of like, you know, years gone by.
00:45:09
Speaker
i think that it just comes from that disconnection. You know, I think, um, um, and i guess that kind of lack of excitement because you know the best the thing that you want really is the some to feel like you're in a wild place to get that kind of excitement and i guess yeah australia can really give you that because of course you've got the danger of the the snakes and the spiders and the crocodiles and all those amazing animals but also it's just the vastness and and ah of all of it i think and
00:45:43
Speaker
we don't have that to a certain extent especially the land size and i think but we do have it in pockets you know and and that's but that's the kind of you know if you if you live in london or if you live in the south you can go on a lovely walk rolling hills but you're you're quite far away from anything what i would call exciting mountains coastline that kind of thing and but also it's all just kind of the same it's agricultural fields and tiny little woodlands and hedgerows a village and then again and again and again and so we haven't got we haven't got these big vast areas of of of biodiversity and i kind of want to take back what said we don't you don't need massive mountains but what you do want is that kind of sense of wilderness and wildness um
00:46:38
Speaker
and that is something i think rewilding can bring us i think it's so important that we need to we need to create new habitat wherever possible and wherever it makes sense to do so and then we need to link up those habitats and create corridors for animals to be able to move around and be connected and i think by doing that that will re regain people's curiosity because also in the uk are public right, we we we love saying something we say little in the UK, we have the best public rights of way in anywhere in the world. And that is true. We we have footpaths everywhere we want to go but we can only access, I think, let me get this right.
00:47:22
Speaker
I think we can only get access legally about 12% the land. The rest is privately owned and technically we're not allowed to be there. So we can walk past that lovely manor house or estate and you can walk straight past it because those those rights away laws are incredibly old. you can look You can look and look at their lovely fields, but you can't go in it.
00:47:45
Speaker
And I think that lack of access is such a driver of lack of interest really. um And that's what's so great about the rewilding movement. Almost all rewilding projects and sites ah involve NGOs or or people buying the land from rich landowners or whoever, starting to rewild and restore the land and then allowing public access.
00:48:12
Speaker
Yeah. So it's, it's not only a movement for rest of ecological restoration, but also for allowing put the the general public greater access rights to the land. And I think that's so important. And if you can then build these habitats for, you know, the next generation, the generation after that, then that is going to increase public interest, awareness, and that passion for nature and, you know, excitement really.
00:48:42
Speaker
Completely. Absolutely.
Gardening Practices and Biodiversity Advocacy
00:48:43
Speaker
it's It's interesting too. Like ah I might've overblown it when people, by saying that people aren't particularly interested in it here. have a few angry English listeners there. I'm sure I will now. Yeah. Trying to gain them. Hang on um But it is an interesting thing. Like, you know, I think about like, I've been hearing the term here a lot, which is, you know wild camping or like wild swimming. and it's, ah it's an interesting thing.
00:49:11
Speaker
thing to me because in Australia we we would call it camping, we'd call it swimming. Yeah. um yeah But I think probably you're right. As we start to build, as the UK starts to build back its wild spaces,
00:49:28
Speaker
People will feel more comfortable being within them and those like wild swimming and wild camping terms will actually probably just fade to swimming and absolutely because yes yeah i guess it's, it's familiarization, right?
00:49:46
Speaker
Yeah, that's a great point. um we we we i think we crave wildness. We crave wilderness. I never really heard it explained to me like that. You're right. We do wild camping.
00:49:58
Speaker
we But we say wild camping when when it's because we're we would be camping on someone's privately owned land. so yeah So then you know then we're you know we're breaking it we're breaking a law, even though you know if they if they catch you, that you're out to you know they totally leave. It's fine. You haven't actually broken any laws.
00:50:14
Speaker
You can't prosecuted. But, you know, it's like that kind of... that except We're looking for that excitement. So we think, okay, well, that's the best thing we can do is camp on someone else's land. And then that's wild enough, you know?
00:50:25
Speaker
so yeah, absolutely, you're right. I think people in the UK, we crave wilderness and because we don't really have it anymore. And we should be able to have it, obviously, not quite on the same level as Australia. And, i you know, I wouldn't... you know ah and In a way, it's really nice not really having any native...
00:50:43
Speaker
deadly animals we're quite lucky in that regard apart from an adder like that could get you although i don't think anyone's died from an adabite until i think last one was 1980 so that would be unfortunate but yeah um yeah of course you know we crave wilderness and and when we can and should and and need to bring that back to prevent you know biodiversity decline that's happening in the uk something that the uk does brilliantly is obviously gardening um And as we've been talking about rewilding and all that kind of stuff, it's a huge movement within gardens. um
00:51:17
Speaker
What's a piece of advice from an ecologist to a home gardener within the UK, within Australia even, that you would give to gardeners that are just starting out?
00:51:30
Speaker
Okay. I think, yeah, the the first thing I would say is please don't use pesticides regularly. ever. It just, I think the concept of putting something horribly poisonous into our, um into your garden, you know, your garden that isn't pest specific and will kill so many things that it interacts with is just a crazy idea.
00:51:59
Speaker
You know, say what you, you know, say what you want about the French, but they have the best, one of the best laws ever where individual people and councils, the only people who can use pesticides are registered farmers.
00:52:14
Speaker
Everywhere else, they they are banned. because the French understand that these are poisonous chemicals that are incredibly harmful.
00:52:24
Speaker
ah They are propped up by massive conglomerate organizations that have tried for you know the last 100 years to tell us that these things aren't harmful when they're deaf they are and new compounds are being created all of the time to to to get around.
00:52:41
Speaker
safety laws so please stop using pesticides because pesticides will only degrade your garden and actually in many cases create the perfect ah environment for a pest outbreak to occur exactly in a real real world example there's a moth called the cotton ball moth native to southeast asia it's got to south america and it absolutely devastates um soya bean production farming across in south america destroys in quite swathes and swathes and fields soy beans um and ah if it started in the 50s they created a new pesticide got rid of it and then it came back and they've now it's basically indestructible
00:53:24
Speaker
And obviously, I'm not saying this isn't going to happen to your garden, but that's the concept we need to be thinking about. So stop using pesticides and try and instead utilize something in the agricultural world, which is called natural pest regulation.
00:53:39
Speaker
because for every pest, an aphid or anything like that, it has loads of things that want to eat it or parasitize it. And so the more biodiversity you make your garden, the more attractive you make your garden to all insects, then in theory, the more control, natural control you'll have.
00:53:59
Speaker
And so it's about how can I make my garden as biodiverse as possible and i guess going back to what we talked about earlier that is in most cases planting natives and allowing allowing wild spaces as well so you know you can have natives you can plant natives but if you then you know let them flower and then cut them and cut them back you know and and and leave bare lawn over winter then there there aren't like going to be that space for insects to to thrive. So having wild patches, even areas where you just don't do nothing, it doesn't have to be massive. Then you just leave that ah throughout the year you and you give space for insects to overwinter.
00:54:42
Speaker
And then you will see a difference the the year after and the year after that. And I guess if you have a pest outbreak, I know it's painful, but you just kind of have to let that happen.
00:54:52
Speaker
There will, a balance will be found again, i think. No, you're absolutely right. I kind of say too and listeners have definitely heard me say this before, but like you're generally the biggest pest in your garden. If you start intervening too much, yeah you're going to create more problems than you will solve by using a pesticide or a herbicide, um but particularly pesticides.
00:55:17
Speaker
The thing that people need to realize is that you need baddies so that the goodies will come. So you will need the, you'll need the insects that you don't want there that are, you know, destroying your plants for then the beneficial insects to come in swoop in and save the day. But if you are continually beating down, ah bad insects with herbicides, the good insects won't come.
00:55:43
Speaker
Um, and the problem in my perspective, and I've seen it in previous clients' gardens where it just snowballs and it's constant and you're constantly putting chemical into the garden. And for me, it's just ridiculous because it had all sought itself out if you just stepped back and took my hands and off the wheel. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a lose-lose really.
00:56:07
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. It's all about balance really is what you were just speaking about. um Gardeners often think that they need to have things manicured and looking perfect and, you know, have a sense of control over their environment.
00:56:21
Speaker
What would you say in terms of... you know, leaving things wild. How would you say people should, you know, flick their mindset? Well, it's a difficult thing to do. it's so deeply ingrained in, mean, I obviously can't speak for the Australian public, but for the British public. It's pretty similar. it's Yeah, it's it's just, you know, it's that idea that's been passed down to us for generations, you know, the rural ideal idea of just neatness.
00:56:49
Speaker
uniformity you know french all those old french gardens everything like that neatness and and we have looked we've grown up to see a freshly mown lawn as as a beautiful thing and and it's like a fight against nature we're always fighting to keep it how we want it and that's the right thing to do and i think what i would say first of all is don't let your neighbors impact your thinking. Because I know people who, you know, they they don't want to be mowing their lawns, but they're only doing it almost out of shame because they see their neighbors looking over the fence, you know?
00:57:25
Speaker
And also I think that some, that because wild grass and long shrub, you know, scrubby grass almost has has also a connotation with with poverty and and neglect as well. yeah And I think,
00:57:40
Speaker
That's something I don't know how we're going to change that. ah We're only going to change that through education, really, and an awareness. um ah What I would say is if you're thinking of, um let's say you've got a front garden and you and you've you know you've got a high footfall of people walking past.
00:57:54
Speaker
ah Let the, let the, you know, let the wildflower meadow grow. Cause that's a great thing to do. And just put up a sign, put up a sign saying pollinator friendly garden. And that should solve the problem of all those looks, hopefully, because then people, you know, just put a bee on it because people love bees. People that's like love bees. i Love lawns.
00:58:13
Speaker
And, but they don't understand that the lawn is literally the worst possible thing for the bee. You know, I remember, you know, I walked through, yeah like, um, retail parks and there'll be there'll be bee hotels and bug hotels that have you charities have raised money to be put there and yet it's just they're surrounded by freshly mown lawns that are mown once a week throughout the summer it's like of course there's no insects in there you know you're consistently creating the most artificial landscape possible and so
00:58:48
Speaker
yeah i think we have an obsession with lawns and and think look you don't have to have it doesn't you don't have i'm not saying put your whole garden as a wildflower meadow or anything like that but even a quarter the part that you don't really go to know you don't even have to do anything You know, some people really dont want to go at it and get, you know, and obviously plant native, that's what I would say. And people, you know, like strip back the turf and, you know, put the seeds in there at the right time and, you know, really trying and to get it like rewilding to a place of higher biodiversity as quickly as possible. But also you could just do it a five-year project.
00:59:25
Speaker
You just leave a part of your garden every year for five years, see what you get and you'll be absolutely amazed what comes and you'll you'll see things that you never thought you'd see. You've probably never even seen in the UK. You'll see insects that you'd never seen before.
00:59:41
Speaker
And simply just by doing nothing and you're protecting British wildlife by doing that. And the same would be said in Australia or anywhere. um So Yeah, I think, yeah, I have a real issue with lawns. I understand that people love them. But, you know, i just i just see it all the time. beautiful You know, one day it's a beautiful wildflower meadow and the next day it's been cut down and it's just no one's walking past that. No one's using that bit of land.
01:00:10
Speaker
You know, someone's been paid to do that. Yeah. It's crazy. So your advice, do nothing. I think that's very good advice. Easy gardening, right? I have a bugbear actually, which is an interesting one in the UK. And look, we're not immune in Australia, but you see a lot less of it.
01:00:27
Speaker
And that is artificial turf or astroturf. Oh my God. And it's people our age, dude. It's like new homeowners. And they're like, yeah oh, you know what I'll do? I'll put plastic down. Like, what yeah the fuck?
01:00:43
Speaker
yeah Honestly, i can't I can't deal with it. Yeah, the only thing worse than a lawn is an artificial lawn. That's right. know just Just when you thought it got bad, it can get worse. Yeah.
01:00:54
Speaker
And that is that is, that's just, it's laziness. And and and not knowing. It's just being so, and that's the thing, that when you idealize something like a lawn,
01:01:06
Speaker
and and you don't realize that that's a really bad thing for nature, then you can then create something which is even worse and still think that's great. um Yeah. And again, you know. It's not maintenance free either. Like you have to vacuum that shit.
01:01:20
Speaker
Yeah. Like. And plants will find a way. They'll come through that in a couple of years. you' still got to weed it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But then you've got horrible artificial turf in the soil. Yeah. Breaking down in the sun. Yeah. It's ridiculous. Yeah.
01:01:32
Speaker
Yeah, no, i I totally agree. Yeah, when i whenever I feel see that, I feel almost physically ill. I do too. I have like a physical reaction to it. like it should It should be banned, you know. that's it could It could be banned, just like, you know, that's one thing I want to see for gardening in the UK. Yes. All invasive species should not be able to be sold in any garden centres or anywhere in the UK. I think it's crazy that's possible.
01:02:00
Speaker
Pesticides. Unless you have, you know, you should have to apply for a pesticide license and they should only be granted in very specific cases. I think, I think it's crazy that just the average person can go to the shop and buy liters of poison and pour it on their gardens or pour it wherever.
01:02:17
Speaker
How is that legal? And then fungicides as well, to be honest. Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Exactly. Exactly. All of the sides. Yeah. bad And you know, clues in the name and then, ah yeah, I mean, this is, I guess a bugbear of both of us, but yeah, pan artificial turf. I'd love to see that too.
01:02:38
Speaker
Oh, Tom, thank you so much for your time. i really, really, really appreciate it. thank you. It's been, really enjoyed it. Thank you so much. Oh, good. Let everyone know where they can find you, though, before you run off.
01:02:50
Speaker
Cool. Yeah. So I run an Instagram account called Nature Man Tom or at Nature Man Tom. I'm planning to create YouTube soon and starting to do long form content. So please give me a follow. Really appreciate that. And there yeah, thank you once again. I've i've really, really enjoyed talking to you.
01:03:09
Speaker
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01:03:20
Speaker
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