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Roses With Michael Marriott
196 Plays19 days ago
In this episode of The Gardener’s Lodge podcast, Mykal sits down with Michael Marriott, one of the world’s leading rosarians. After more than 35 years working with David Austin Roses, his voice and name have become synonymous with modern English roses. Michael’s approach to growing roses is refreshingly simple, grounded in observation, practicality, and a deep respect for how plants naturally thrive.
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Transcript
Introduction to Gardener's Lodge Podcast
00:00:07
Speaker
Step into the gardener's lodge with me, Michael Haw. Let's explore the fascinating worlds of gardening, nature and ecology through conversations with experts, thought leaders, passionate enthusiasts, and of course, some real good friends.
00:00:23
Speaker
All from the cozy heart of the lodge. Come on in.
Meet Michael Marriott: Rose Expert
00:00:28
Speaker
Today I'm joined by one of the world's leading Rosarians, Michael Marriott. This is a man whose name is synonymous with modern roses. After 35 years working with David Austin Roses, helping develop and popularize English roses, he has become one of the most trusted voices on Growing With Roses, designing with roses and understanding roses.
00:00:52
Speaker
He has designed rose gardens across the world. Probably the most preeminent rose garden of his would be at the Royal Botanic Gardens in Kew and Queen Mary's Rose Garden. He is the vice president of the Plant Heritage Organization, as well as the Historic Roses Group. He's known for his practical, common sense, organic approach to rose gardening. And those two things don't usually sit together, roses and organic.
00:01:18
Speaker
Unlike a lot of gardeners, he makes rose gardening simple.
Favorite Garden Experience Q&A
00:01:22
Speaker
I think you're going to like what he has to say. But before we get into it, let's hear Michael's answers to my six rapid fire questions.
00:01:30
Speaker
Are you ready? Favourite plant? Well, it's got to be the rose really, isn't it? Favourite way to connect with nature? just get out there and walk around and and have a jolly good look and see what's going on at all levels from treetops down to down to the ground level.
00:01:47
Speaker
What's the most beautiful garden or natural landscape that you've ever visited? i was very fortunate. i went to New Zealand a couple of years ago and I went to this most amazing garden um that I'd seen on Instagram and I I must go and visit it. So it's called Fisherman's Bay. and it I know it, yes. oh it's I mean, the garden itself is is just absolutely superb. And then the setting right by the coast, it's just magical, absolutely. It's quite epic. Favourite garden tool?
00:02:20
Speaker
Cobra head, absolutely brilliant tool. I'll have to look that one up. If you could be one, would you be a plant or an animal? Oh gosh, definitely a plant. Finally, when you're looking for reliable research on anything garden related, where do you go for trusted advice? The specialist nursery that grows that group of plants.
00:02:41
Speaker
Um, of course you've got the the plant heritage organization that lists or these people who grow specific groups of plants. And they're usually fantastic sources of information or, or just a specialist
Career Journey with David Austin Roses
00:02:56
Speaker
nursery. the The owners are usually absolutely delightful and offsyat often very happy to talk to an enthusiastic person and full of fantastic knowledge. What was the defining moment, do you think, that you realised that roses would become your life's work?
00:03:14
Speaker
Not until quite late on, really, because and in my grandparents' garden in Warwickshire, um i I used to do a lot of garden. This is my sort of teenage years. I used to do practically all of the gardening there. i was so so keen on it.
00:03:31
Speaker
and um But I remember at the front of the house, there was sort of classic two oval beds planted with roses. And it was... awful situation because I think I think it was on the um west side of the house uh but then uh shaded by a great big yew tree uh they were you know it's all classic I know 30s or 50s um hybrid tea type things that were demanded to be sprayed on a regular basis to be
00:04:03
Speaker
kept healthy and they were probably well past their sell-by date as well. They've probably been in the ground for, you know, 20, 30, 40 years or something like that. And so these things used to produce the ah odd bloom on the end of leafless sticks. And so... And then there was sort ah ancient old climbers going up rusty old scaffolding poles and things like that. So i regarded those, well, I didn't regard them at all. I thought they were just um not worthy of a second glance at all. So I concentrated very much more on, I love growing vegetables and fruit and and things like rock gardens and things like that. So yeah, roses didn't, it wasn't until I,
00:04:49
Speaker
I started really working for for David Austin's, i think that was 84, 85, something like that. Okay. But suddenly realised, gosh, yes, roses are the most amazing plants.
00:05:04
Speaker
And you ended up working there for about 35 years, is that right? Yeah. Yes, yeah. I mean, the the great thing about working there, I was very fortunate I joined at exactly the right time in terms of the progress of the of the nursery. So um the three fantastic roses have just been introduced a year before, Mary Rose Heritage and Graham Thomas. And and so it changed fairly rapidly from being a fairly small unknown nursery or only known to ah to um a select few who were keen on old roses and these these English roses. So it changed really quickly into of rapidly expanding roses where people from literally around the world wanted to come and talk to David Austin and see his English roses.
00:05:57
Speaker
And because he wasn't terribly keen on on on meeting people and talking to them. ah but I was very happy to, um, to talk to the, to the, to the world's press and, um, nurserymen and, uh, and, and, and gardeners and garden owners and things like that.
00:06:16
Speaker
Um, so I, I sort of changed from initially being very much of a working nursery manager where I spent 90% of my time out in the field with everybody else to, um, to somebody who, um,
00:06:30
Speaker
spent all my time sort of, well, I suppose promoting the roses and talking to various people and being going around the world to to promote them. So it so it changed, that that's a great thing, it changed year by year.
00:06:46
Speaker
and And each week was was different, each day was different really, because I didn't have a sort of a set thing to do. So it was, for for me, it was an absolutely ideal job I mean, in that respect, I mean, it sounds like that you really kind of boosted the brand to a global level. I think, you know, today, if you think of roses, you think of David Austin roses, the two are synonymous, you know, so I guess you're kind of coming in at that time and then your promotion of the, of the business and of the brand and of the cultivars, had really pushed it into the future, didn't it? Yes. ah Yes, I suppose so. i mean yeah, the time it didn't, you know, just sort of
00:07:23
Speaker
Well, i love the I really loved the doing the job because um I loved the roses and really thought they were excellent. And I never never really liked the hybrid teas and the floribundas. So it was also fortunate from that point of view that um the hybrid teas and the floribundas had been around for, well, since then since the 19th century, towards the end of the 19th century. And they the breeders really sort of shot themselves in the foot really by by breeding roses that were,
00:07:57
Speaker
um they didn't suit modern, garden they they were very much roses for old fashioned gardens. um You know, rather stiff and upright and all very bright colors that people wanted after the Second World War to cheer themselves
Free Perennial Garden Design Offer
00:08:16
Speaker
up.
00:08:16
Speaker
And so the the English roses came with a, just the right time in terms of the the history of the rose because people wanted something that was different, not so brightly colored, a different shape of flower to the hybrid tea and something that could just be incorporated into the garden, not not as a A rose garden, rose gardens are can be very beautiful, but they come with a lot of problems, potential problems. so That's right, yeah. They they they came at um just the right time from that point of view.
00:08:55
Speaker
Do you have a sunny space in your garden that you just don't know what to do with? Well, I have a treat for you. A free perennial garden design that you can download
The Charm of English Roses
00:09:05
Speaker
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00:09:07
Speaker
It's full of colour and year-round interest, and the best part is that it's pollinator and wildlife attracting. It's been designed with the yeah UK climate in mind, but I know I've got listeners across the globe. So if you're in the southern states of Australia or the northern part of the US, this is the design for you.
00:09:27
Speaker
You can download your free perennial garden design, as well as my free Australian native garden design at the link in the description. What do you think was so revolutionary about the English rose at the time?
00:09:41
Speaker
um Because well the the shape of flower is completely different. i mean, people think about the the English roses, the David Austin. in In England, they're called the English roses in most other parts of the world because roses from ah the UK can just be called English roses. So in other parts of the world, they're called David Austin varieties varieties.
00:10:04
Speaker
um But um they were they were just... ah So people think of them as being very double, you know, we're sort of... over 100 petals. but In fact, David Austin loved all sorts of roses, all shapes and sizes of flowers and bushes as well and climbers as well. um so ah It's wrong to think of of the Austrian varieties as just the very full fully double ones.
00:10:35
Speaker
um to and Nowadays, there's there's more emphasis on the fully double ones, but it's certainly in the early days, when he introduced five or six varieties every year, there was at least one or two either have single or semi-double ones. and and i think That's very important because roses aren't, it's it's it's but it gets very boring if you just think of of a a rose um as being a certain shape, as the flower being a certain shape. you know And that was the problem of the hybrid tea because the hybrid tea is very much that high-pointed centre. There's only so much variation you can do. i mean, any variation you can do to a certain extent. I'm being a bit narrow-minded here.
00:11:22
Speaker
It's colour. And so if you have nothing but very fully double flowers as in the Austin varieties, which are very beautiful, then again, you're sort of pushing yourself into a corner And the only only variation you can get then is color.
00:11:43
Speaker
And so it's very important that roses see roses are seen to be a really variable bunch of plants. you know You can get everything from five petals um through all the semi-doubles to the fully double ones.
Breeding and Selection Process
00:11:56
Speaker
And then the fully double ones, you can get different shapes of flowers. And then of course you can get some which are short, some are medium ma high, some are tall, you know different different habits.
00:12:05
Speaker
and then you go into the climbers as well. So they're a hugely variable group of plants that are well worth exploring. What was it like working with David?
00:12:17
Speaker
he He was um he's very single-minded, and and quite rightly so, to make his idea of the rosa breeding that his English roses a success. that The nursery itself had to be a success to make money. Because ah breeding roses is a hugely expensive business. Vast amounts of money are spent on it.
00:12:38
Speaker
um and so As the years went on, and so yeah you have me and then various other people started to join the company to to help with running the the business. so it became more and more single-minded in in the breeding of the roses.
00:12:56
Speaker
and um so if ah you know Being nursery manager, I would go in in the morning and i had I'd have an idea of what I would do that day with the with the um various people, you know the the workforce to work outside.
00:13:13
Speaker
and um But sometimes he would, you know I'd get them going and then he'd come out and said, no, I i want this doing to my my breeding roses. And now and again, I'd try to argue the point. you i think well I think the great the the growing crop, the the commercial crop needs this doing. No, I want this doing. So in the end, I stopped arguing and just said, okay. and and you can see you know you can see why, because you know he was just so totally passionate about his the the breeding side of it, that that that to him was all that was important.
00:13:49
Speaker
yeah and And of course, if it as I say, if it wasn't for the English roses, then either the nursery wouldn't exist or um it would still be a ah very small nursery growing um a small number of roses in ah in a small selection. so well yeah he was a So he could be very difficult to to work with. but He's a fascinating man. He was very, very what widely read. um you went into his... um his sitting room where he sat most of the time, there'll be a huge thousands of books, but 100 to 100 thousand bookshelves behind him, filled with books um covering a huge range of different subjects, obviously a lot on gardening, but then biographies and history and poetry as well. And he actually wrote a a ah book of poetry himself
00:14:44
Speaker
So looking back at your 35 years with the business, what are you most proud of contributing? Gosh, I suppose just helping to to to bring the the beauty, the beauty of the English roses to to the general public, to the gardeners all around the world. And that's, yes, it's not just English roses. One word,
00:15:13
Speaker
that he liked to use a lot when he described his English roses was the word charm. And um so just going back on what we were saying a few i was saying a few minutes ago, that it's one of the main characters. that There's a lot of the hybrid and floribundas. In the very early days, they the hybrid teas did have charm.
00:15:38
Speaker
um But as the breeding progressed and they became rather stiff stylized sort of plants and so they lost lost their charm. And I think it's very important that roses, well, I think it's very important that all plants should have charm, whatever it is, whether it's an annual or perennial. And I get very sad sometimes when I see some of the new introductions that are brought out um that have completely lost their original identity and and their charm.
00:16:10
Speaker
And there's always one example I like to give is um is I like my anterinans, my snapdragons, to look like snapdragons. I don't want them to look like some sort of amorphous flower, which is really very colourful and produced flowers for for a long time.
00:16:28
Speaker
um But, you know, they've just lost that essential character. Something a little bit unnatural, I suppose, isn't it? Well, absolutely, yeah. i mean, you've got such a huge variety of of different plants in the world. Why try and make them something that they're not?
00:16:44
Speaker
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And then when you lose things like fragrance, you know, fragrance, especially in roses, but in so many plants, fragrance is such an important character that it's it's criminal really to breed fragrance out of it for the benefit of something else.
00:17:05
Speaker
Yeah, well that's right. I mean, we're going to go deep into fragrance in a few minutes, but could you explain, i suppose, what is charm then? What is what is? oh It's obviously subjective, but is it just something should know when you see it or? Absolutely. I mean, he he said that itself. It's something that you can...
00:17:23
Speaker
when he was trying to decide what rows to introduce, because every year your your he was producing 100, 150,000 different seedlings, each one unique. That's every year he'd be doing that. And he'd have this task of gradually whittling those down to you know just just one or two or three ah varieties that were introduced at the end of the day. And so he The reason you do that because a lot of roses, lot the roses obviously are not at all disease resistant or just not beautiful or don't flower very well or whatever.
Rose Fragrance Exploration
00:18:01
Speaker
um Then there's quite a few which are flower well and very healthy and have fragrance. But then the final final characteristic is this word charm. and As he said himself, it's it's something that you can very easily recognize, but actually it's very difficult to put into words. You can't say, why has that rose got char and that one hasn't?
00:18:26
Speaker
ah So it's it's the way the the flowers hang on the on the stem, the way the the stamens exposed in the middle, the subtle colour or maybe colour change as well of the petals.
00:18:41
Speaker
um It's how long they last, how how well they die, how well the petals die, the shape of the whole bush. It's a whole catalogue of of different characters that help to create that prep impression of charm.
00:18:58
Speaker
It's quite an interesting thing to theorise over. What is the process, that though, from a seedling... How long does it take for that, you know, once it's selected to go all the way to market around the world? Well, the selection progress, selection is is a gradual process spread over 10 years. So initially you'll have, say, 150,000 seedlings and you go through and select maybe a couple of thousand out of those. but These are in the greenhouses. The first, you because when you sow them, they will flower, amazingly, they flower that first year and they're all in in raised beds in the greenhouse. And so you go through every day trying to select those that that um have beautiful flowers. you You can't tell anything about how healthy it's going to be or
00:19:49
Speaker
or um how well it's going to be. You know they're going to repeat flower. If it flowers in the first year in the greenhouse, you know it's going to repeat flower. And because of the parents he used, you knew that every single one was going to be repeat flowering.
00:20:03
Speaker
um so yeah so there's So you initially select maybe a couple of thousand to be budded out into the field. and then they would flower the following year and out of those, you'd watch them for a year or two and select a few hundred out of those, go on to the next stage and then go on to look at those again. and you So gradually your're you're whittling down the number of selections from the initial thousands to just a maybe 20 or 30 or something like that. and all the time you're increasing the number of plants per selection.
00:20:43
Speaker
So each of those 150,000 plants in the greenhouse is genetically unique. yeah um They may be very, very similar, but they are genetically unique.
00:20:55
Speaker
And then as you bud them, um which is another word for grafting basically, then you're you're making that into a clone. So each of those
00:21:06
Speaker
each of those plants that you grow from that initial initial seedling will be genetically identical. And then so at the end of the 10 years or so, make your final choice.
00:21:19
Speaker
And um so you so recently they've having been introducing one or two per year. And by that time, they would have gone from that initial one plant to maybe 10, 15, 20,000 plants ready for sale it amazing, isn't it? I mean, it's such like a in-depth process and I suppose you're then looking at pest and disease resistance and of course, you know, the appeal to a lot of people is the fragrance as you were mentioning before.
00:21:49
Speaker
yeah. So the fragrance is something that I'm particularly passionate about. and I, I'm, I'm, um, I'm, I was very lucky because I, yeah um, Dave lost Had this idea, a brilliant idea to,
00:22:05
Speaker
to yeah all or The average person's nose is very limited. you know You can say, oh yes, that's fragrant and that's got a light fragrance, that's got a strong fragrance or that's got no fragrance. But trying to describe it is is really difficult. And so he had this excellent idea to try and find a nose, somebody who could identify fragrances. And so we found this lovely chap called Robert Kalkin,
00:22:30
Speaker
And he was a nose. He used to work for Yardley's. And I had this dreadful job of having to walk around all day long with him going around smelling roses. Oh, no. And, yeah, we became very good friends. He was he was so he's a lovely chap. And amazing how he could just give a pick a rose, give a sniff of two and say, oh yes, well this is the old rose, but then it's got a bit of fruit in it, maybe some damson and um and maybe blackberry in there. Oh, and also there's just in the background there, a little bit of myrrh as well. you know and So to me, that was absolutely fascinating. It opened up my my nose, if you like, fragrances throughout the garden. So I'm now a ah passionate sniffer of of flowers.
00:23:30
Speaker
We hope you develop your nose a yeah and so i I always like to, well, often find things, oh gosh, I didn't realize that was fragrant. So always encourage people to try and sniff whatever flower. You know, it might be nothing there at all, but you might be totally surprised about what a wonderful fragrance there is. Well, that's it. And I actually, mean, I have not got a great sense of smell, I must admit, but I will often use even the scent of a crushed leaf to ID something like, hmm, smells a bit like this, so it's probably a part of this, you know what mean? So sense is very important. So Robert Culkin actually developed the scent classification system for David Austin Roses.
00:24:14
Speaker
Well, but yeah, I mean, but yes, basically, as I think other rose companies, other people have tried to describe them as if they were perfumes with high notes and middle notes and low notes. And I think the average person, used I can't relate to that. And I think you have to be a bit of a sort professional perfumer. But but Robert Calkin had this, he just said, well, because all fragrances are relatable. There's very few basic fragrances. And so...
00:24:43
Speaker
ah You know, the the old rose fragrance is is ah is a basic fragrance. But then when you say, well, this rose has got a fruity fragrance, you say, well, it's fruity fragrance, but it smells like apples or it smells like guapas or light cheese. So you're you're relating it to something else. And and you can you can then relate to that. And and also roses, of course, are...
00:25:06
Speaker
of particularly fascinating from that point of view because they're second to the tropical epithetic orchids in terms of variety. um And so in in the rose world, you've got your five basic salts, you've the old rose, fruit, myrrh, tea and musk.
00:25:27
Speaker
Did I say five there? can't remember. think so. Yes, I think you did. and And so you get some some roses which are absolutely pure musk or pure myrrh or whatever, but a lot of them have mostly old rose, but the addition of of a bit of fruit or a bit of tea or something like that.
00:25:49
Speaker
What's your favourite? Well, all of them, really. I it's, yeah, i yeah, i'd say they they're all,
00:26:01
Speaker
They're all delicious. Some people find the myrrh fragrance fragrance challenging. um To them it smells a bit like hospitals and antiseptic creams and things like that. But yeah sometimes I admit it can be a bit overpowering. So in some varieties on ah on ah on the on a specific day, it can be very strong and as I say, almost overpowering.
00:26:25
Speaker
But in more subtle varieties, then it's it's absolutely delicious. I'm a bit of a tea fanatic. And so I do like the... um The tea fragrance, because it's ah is's meant to smell like a freshly opened packet of China tea leaves, and that's my my favorite tea is China, black China tea. So lovely.
00:26:44
Speaker
But then the old rose fragrances, you know, you I remember smelling rose. I was in Italy, was it last year or the year before? leading the rose tour and um came across, went to a rose garden up in the hills, not too far from Rome and Perugia and um came across a ah rose called Caccia Saison, which is the old are the only old rose that does repeat flower.
00:27:16
Speaker
And the fragrance from that was just, oh yeah, just absolutely fantastic. And then you can see that, um ah why that that' is why people make the rose oil out of that for inclusion in the top perfumes, things like Chanel No. 5 and things like that it's
Garden Coaching and Mistakes Q&A
00:27:38
Speaker
is's that. You only need a tiny little bit, but it's just so alluring, so delicious that, oh, wonderful, wonderful. It is. I've actually got a little essential oil of of some old roses. It is intoxicating. It's very nice. yes it's um It's lovely.
00:27:55
Speaker
2026 is upon us and I have limited spaces open for my garden coaching and consultation sessions. Whether you're looking for help with plant identification, advice on care and maintenance, or tips for improving your soil and plant nutrition,
00:28:10
Speaker
I'm here to help. As a garden designer, I'll help you think creatively about your outdoor space, offering tools and ideas to give you a fresh perspective on your garden projects.
00:28:22
Speaker
My coaching and consultation sessions can happen right in your garden if you live in the yeah UK or online if you're anywhere else in the world. My goal is to meet you where you are and support your unique garden journey.
00:28:37
Speaker
Whether you're just starting out, looking to refine your skills, or simply need a second opinion, or someone just to bounce ideas off, you have found your space.
00:28:48
Speaker
Head to the link in this episode description or shoot me an email at hello at thegardenerslodge.co.uk. All
00:28:58
Speaker
right, but let's switch gears a little bit. Let's talk about rose care and growing. um What are the biggest mistakes that beginners make when it comes to roses?
00:29:10
Speaker
um There's two really. i mean, the first one is choosing the wrong variety. um but There's there's um ah thousands of varieties on the market.
00:29:22
Speaker
And some are absolute dogs and they'll get disease at the drop of a hat. And the example I always give for that, the very, very worst one is variety called Zephyrin Druin, um which just, it's just yeah just awful for disease. there's There's other varieties that are absolutely completely healthier just never get any disease at all um and still flower very well and still uh have a wonderful fragrance and still importantly are beautiful so you know it's no good having ah a tremendously healthy variety that is actually not very beautiful you want to know exactly all of those characters so they are there out there it just means hunting for them a bit so
00:30:14
Speaker
you know reading ah reading rose books, the the right rose books, um and listening to what people say who have experience of growing roses without spraying, and that's that's that's very crucial.
00:30:28
Speaker
um So yeah, choosing the right variety is absolutely to be crucial to having the successful roses in your garden. And then the other thing is is the soil.
00:30:40
Speaker
um people but people are starting to realize now um that that soil is absolutely central to growing plants. you know It's not just roses. All plants need good soil.
00:30:57
Speaker
and And people go on about um encouraging all the life in the soil, which is absolutely crucial. So it's exactly the same you know these days where ah encouraged to eat a whole variety of different foods and and fermented foods and things like that for our for our gut flora, for the health of our gut. And it's exactly the same to me as the soil. If you start abusing your soil by putting on chemical fertilizers or not mulching it or treading on it when the soil is well, you'll compat your you're just wrecking your so the soil. And then plants, whatever they be,
00:31:39
Speaker
will not grow so well. So you've got to think very much about your soil. And so one of the best ways of looking after your soil is a really good layer of mulch. And that's where people in in Australia, especially I think and in a place like California and like that, so where it's a hot climate um and you know to keep them alive, you have to water fairly. now and again, but you have to make you have to encourage the moisture to stay in the soil. And you do that very simply by just putting you on a really thick layer of mulch. And what the mulch does as well as helping to keep the moisture in the ground is to help prevent compaction. So if you put something like wood chips on, a good really good layer of three, four inches, you have 7,500 millimeters
00:32:32
Speaker
of um of wood chipps then you're helping to prevent compaction. that well one One thing that you very rarely read about, and of course what happens in rose beds, you're there in the middle of winter, um trudging around to prune your roses. The soil, I mean, especially this winter, it's been endless rain over here in the UK. So you're you're trampling around on the soil, you're compacting it like mad.
00:33:00
Speaker
If there's no mulch, that's absolutely wrecking the soil. and then during the summer of you um um you're you're in there deadheading as well and you're going there weeding and things like that. And so yeah, mulch helps maintain the moisture, helps prevent compaction, feeds all the myriad beasties that live live in the soil from beetles and worms down to you all the bacteria and and all sorts of things like that, worms that live in the soil is crucial to encouraging, and course the mycorrhizal fungi, which are crucial, that live in the soil.
Enhancing Garden Biodiversity
00:33:41
Speaker
One thing that I'd say with obviously being an Australian, we use mulch heavily, um is particularly when it comes to feeding the soil, if because it is feeding the soil as it breaks down, is to every year or so actually change the variety of mulch or the species of wood chip that you're using in the garden because obviously diversity breeds biodiversity. um And it's the same with you know using mulches and feeding soils.
00:34:09
Speaker
uh in australia we in some climates particularly thick layers of mulch water absorbs into the mulch and doesn't quite get down into the surface so i think changing that's that that variety of mulch is quite an important thing year on year as well yeah i hadn't thought of that actually yeah it's a good point a good point yeah yes but uh and then the other way that the third thing i would say is is is don't to help keep your roses healthy is to um um not plant rose gardens. you know Rose gardens can be very beautiful, but in monocultures, and of course ah every monoculture is complete disaster, really. So yeah if you want to have roses in your garden, mix them up with other plants. And that's one of the great things about the English roses, the Austrian varieties, is that they are they look really beautiful mixed up with other plants, be they perennials,
00:35:02
Speaker
ah biannuals or annuals and people ah often don't think about annuals but actually you can get some really wonderful ah plant and color association of of annuals with with roses and they have the advantage of of having a fairly small root system. The challenge like challenge with perennials and biomules is that they have um after they they creep around, you know they spread like mad they have a big root system which then competes with the roots of the roses for moisture and and food.
00:35:37
Speaker
um So, yeah, annuals are are very good from that point and then you can change it from year to year, you know, But one of the plants that i'm I'm very, very keen on, one of the annuals, which I'm the keenest on, is is one called Phacelia.
00:35:54
Speaker
Phacelia tannacetifolia. It's quite a beautiful. It's a member of the borage family, and it's incredibly um attractive to bees and a whole range of other insects. And it's great great for ground cover. People use it um in the field level to to um to help regenerate the soil.
00:36:15
Speaker
And it's beautiful as well. It looks lovely. It's lovely sort of slightly purplished blue flowers, lovely nice little fragrance. And it's it's not too invasive either.
00:36:25
Speaker
So yeah, mix up your roses with other plants. And um actually, yeah I think it it enhances the beauty of the roses. Well, that's it. And I suppose it's the same with vegetable gardening, right When you're vegetable gardening in rows, you're bound to have pest problems, aren't you? But yeah you mix it up and you have other flowering plants that can bring in those beneficial insects that then can kind of predate on the bad guys. yeah Always makes the ecosystem a bit more healthy. Yeah. um yeah And the other thing is not try you know, in terms of pest, there's no real, there's very little little over evidence that there's variation pests
00:37:06
Speaker
in um resistance to pests in roses. There is a ah little bit, but it's it's not very easy to find. So if you, you know, people go on about aphids on roses, and of course, as soon as you start trying to control them, you're you're um you're messing up the the balance. And, you know, in in my garden here, i have a great colony of sparrows, and they do a brilliant job.
00:37:36
Speaker
going around hoovering up all the aphids and other pests around, well, just what whatever they want to eat really. But you know if you start controlling the the aphids on your roses, then there's nothing for them or the or beneficial insects to eat and they'll either a die of starvation or they'll they' buzz off to ah to somewhere else where they can they can find some food. So the more you try and control it, the more you're wrecking that balance and the worse it's going to potentially get. So just you know be patient. You see aphids on your roses and say, oh yeah, great.
00:38:14
Speaker
And the chance are they they'll they'll sort of get to a certain level and suddenly overnight they'll disappear as a a flock of sparrows perhaps find them even more you know things like that's it works i mean it can be tricky can't it to just sit there and watch them kind of take over but you're right you do need what if you can start to build that ecosystem up then yeah start taking care of itself yeah yeah and and of course the longer you leave it the better it gets and now again it'll get a bit out of hand but you know just say okay fine you know i'm This year it's not so good, but next year it'll be fine.
00:38:48
Speaker
My listeners won't be surprised at this at all. I'm obviously interested in native species and endemic plants and their kind of connections with pollinators. And Britain has around 12 to 15 kind of native rose species.
00:39:04
Speaker
of which a lot of those are the ancestors to the modern royal rose cultivars. Do you find, though, that modern rose cultivars are as good for attracting pollinators into one's garden than their kind of like primitive natives?
00:39:20
Speaker
um It all depends on the petal count. So the very, very double ones, but not you know the the ah petals have been transformed from stamens into petals, and so there's nothing there for the insects to go into.
00:39:35
Speaker
But it's surprising even roses that ah look seemingly very double, um often they're they're not that double and still the insects can get in there. One of my favorite varieties I think of from that point of view is one called the generous gardener.
00:39:53
Speaker
um which looks very double, but in fact, there's not so many petals, and then the bees and the other insects can get in there. And if it does get um pollinated, then it produces the most fantastic crop of hips, really large red, big red, and long-lasting hips.
00:40:12
Speaker
So i obviously the singles and the semi-doubles are going to be their favorite because they're very obviously accessible to get to the pollen.
00:40:23
Speaker
That's the only reason that insects go to rose flowers is for the pollen. There's no, they don't produce any nectar at all. yeah the Pollen is crucial for the for feeding their young.
00:40:37
Speaker
um But then actually some singles um ah don't produce viable pollen. So there's there's one rose called Kew Gardens, which is just the most amazing variety. it you Flowers like mad, it's got no thorns.
00:40:52
Speaker
and it's super healthy. But in terms of attractiveness to to insects, it scores basically naught out of 10 because it's um the pollen must be sterile.
Soil Health and Rose Care
00:41:05
Speaker
So if you want to attract in um insects into your garden, vile, roses, then choose preferably singles and semi-doubles. But don't be put off by something like, well, I said generous gardener, lady shallot and things like that.
00:41:21
Speaker
and that they would there would still be good. The way to tell is to if it produces hips. So if a rose produces no hips, um after you obviously you mustn't deadhead it, but if it produces no hips, then that flower is is not going to be good for for insects.
00:41:45
Speaker
Whereas if it does produce hips, then then you can be pretty sure that's going to be a a valuable source of pollen for visiting insects. Good tips. I suppose just for anyone who's not across what a hip is, it's basically the the seed pod that a rose produces after it's been pollinated. Back onto soil, actually. What makes really good rose growing soil?
00:42:11
Speaker
they They like plenty of moisture around the roots, and so they don't really like um sandy, well-drained soils. They like something that is going to retain the moisture quite well. So, i mean, people always, you read in books, um and they say that roses like clay, but of course there's clay, you know, there's sort of a heavy loam clay, and there's there's clay for pots, for making pots. And so, yeah, yeah. If it's ah if if it's a heavy loam type clay, then they should love that.
00:42:46
Speaker
The people go on about um you're adding lots of organic matter, which it's, you know, yeah, okay, can do, but then maybe just rely on on them ah mulch too, and then let the worms and everything else to take the organic matter down to the soil, down down down to the roots.
00:43:06
Speaker
um People go on about rose replant disease and every single talk that I give ah people in various, there's always one person that asks me about rose replant disease. And basically that that is a, you know, in case people don't know, rose replant disease is where people say that you can't plant a rose where there was a rose planted before. You've got to wait several years before you can replant it, otherwise the rose will not do very well. Basically, that that is a sign that you have abused the soil. You haven't looked after properly, that it's it's lacking in um in organic matter. It's probably a complete imbalance of nutrients, especially potassium and phosphorus, phosphate and potash,
00:43:59
Speaker
and yeah know the soil is just completely dead. yeah There's no life it in it at all, it's completely compacted. And so you know even ground soil will struggle to grow in that sort of soil.
00:44:15
Speaker
But if you've looked after your soil really well by mulching it really well, ah and not over, this is one of the crucial things, not over applying fertilizers,
00:44:29
Speaker
then you should be absolutely no problem with replanting the roses exactly the same place. and In fact, it's something that I used to ask very frequently when I went to places like Australia and the States and places like that. I'd say, well, what do you do about replant disease? and they'd look Most people, most rose growers would look at me blankly and say, well, what's that? Never heard of that. And that's because people in those climates used to mulch their soil really heavily. And so they didn't.
00:44:58
Speaker
Um, well, i was going to say, I've actually not really heard of it. So were that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I, I did some work. Well, I, I mean, all the time I worked at Dave Dawson's and since I've left there, I've, I've done consultancy on, on Rose gardens, big public Rose gardens or private ones. And and one of the things I always ask them to do before I go there is do a soil analysis.
00:45:27
Speaker
And think 99 times out 100, ninety nine times out of a hundred it's come back that the phosphate and potash levels are absolutely sky high. Because one of the things that we're always told to we've fertilize our roses, we've got to fertilize our roses, you know, you twice a year. And so you put it on this often artificial fertilizer on there and people don't regard how much they put on.
00:45:50
Speaker
You know, oh, that rose is not looking very good, I'll put on a bit more. And so the phosphate and potash levels become absolutely sky high. And they they take many, many years to ah reduce the the plant only uses them in small quantities and it just builds up and builds up in the soil and so if you've got that then trying to plant a rose in that place with the very high phosphate potash levels is is disaster so how do you feed your roses what's your philosophy just mulch
00:46:23
Speaker
Yes, well, it depends on on what your soil is like. and I'm working on a big project at the moment and they did a soil analysis and they found that the natural soil nutrient levels is um very high high in, can't remember which one it was now, either phosphate or potassium. it's naturally very high.
00:46:44
Speaker
um And so to apply more of it would be completely disastrous. So it all depends on your soil type. But yes, yeah yeah by by mulching correctly and maybe adding a little bit of fertilizer will help.
00:47:01
Speaker
What sometimes all they need is just nitrogen. But of course, you know artificial nitrogen like farmers put on their fields, that's disastrous because that's just, it wrecks the soil. So you have to think about an organic soil, something maybe like dried blood or something like that.
00:47:17
Speaker
Because roses do need nitrogen, all plants need nitrogen, but yeah the right amount. So it's it's you just got to sort of try and put the put the correct amount on, not not overdoing
Practical Pruning Tips
00:47:31
Speaker
things. It's like us, if we, the odd the odd chocolate bar might be okay, but you know if you overindulge, then it becomes um completely disastrous.
00:47:44
Speaker
That's right. And as if you put too much nitrogen on, you're not going to promote blooms. Are you just going to end up with green leafy bits? Absolutely. And and and green leafy bits, which are going to be, um, very, uh, susceptible to, uh, aphid attack yeah and also soft growth. So you want, you want as a nice sturdy plant.
00:48:06
Speaker
Yeah, that's why organic nitrogen, that dried blood is is good from that point of view. It's not a quick blast. you know If you're if you're um a member of the RHS, the Royal Horticultural Society, then you can um send your soil off for for analysis.
00:48:23
Speaker
It costs a bit, but not too much. And it it often is very worthwhile. So you just need to analyze for pH to see how acid or alkaline it is. And then phosphate potash and probably magnesium too. And that'll give you a good indication of ah what you should or shouldn't add to the soil.
00:48:45
Speaker
i think a lot of gardeners, particularly new gardeners, really fear pruning roses. They fear pruning anything because they fear screwing it up. But what are some tips you can give to pruning? Does it have to be complicated? Can it be simple?
00:49:02
Speaker
Oh, it's the simplest thing on earth, really. I mean, that so the first thing to do is to ignore um ignore all the articles or just about 90% of the articles and and books that talk about proving. They go out of their way to make it as complicated as possible. you know, they talk about pruning at an angle and pruning just above ultra-pointing bud and and all sorts of ridiculous things. um Can I give a ah quick um quick plug from for my book called R.S.S. Roses where I've um've tried my hardest to debunk all those things. So all those things
00:49:47
Speaker
ideas about how to prune roses comes from growing the perfect rose for the show bench and and and hybrid tea specifically, you know where you want this sort of perfect flower on the end of a long stalk. And I have the greatest respect for people who show fruit and vegetables and flowers and things like that. They're fantastic people. But the things that they get up to to to achieve those those fantastic specimens have no relation at all to just growing
00:50:22
Speaker
an ordinary crop of you know onions or potatoes or dahlias or croissants or roses in your garden. So forget all about all that out of pointed bud and all that sort of thing.
00:50:33
Speaker
um to put it that very simply, you're cutting the stems down to about halfway, somewhere between a third and two thirds. But you can you can adjust, if you want your rose to grow a bit taller, then don't prune it so hard. If you want it to grow a bit shorter,
00:50:50
Speaker
and prune it a bit harder. and And that's in the cooler months. So that's in midwinter in the UK. We're talking about UK. um Then that's somewhere between sort of mid-December and and really by the end of February should definitely have finished pruning. The roses are starting to shoot quite significantly already. So if you leave it too late, you're wasting all that growth.
00:51:17
Speaker
And then you get distracted by those lovely young buds. You go, oh no, I don't want to cut, that's such a lovely bud coming up there, I don't want to cut that off. And then you end up with a plant, it's sort of all over the place really. It's best to do it almost blind, you know, so you don't get distracted by young growing shoots growing out of the stem. So then you can just concentrate on creating an attractively shaped plant at at the right height. And then the other very important thing is to, roses like to stay young, to to get the best out of the most roses, the repeat flying roses, um like you need to try and keep them young. So what what you want to do is to, as the stem ages, look at them critically, and if they're starting to get old and tired, then cut those stems right out of the base to encourage new young shoots. they'll fly more freely,
00:52:14
Speaker
and also um stay healthier as well. And then you're sort of thinning it out a bit. You don't it you know, the old books, you say, cut it down to sort of six inches and leave only three stems. That's to produce the the perfect flower for the show bench. And those were for hybrid teas, whereas these days, most of us grow shrub roses, so likely like the English roses. And so you want to just keep...
00:52:41
Speaker
and a nice number, and know i use the word nice with care, um just the right number of of stems to create a good look and to, as I say, keep the stems nice and young, which will flower freely and and stay healthier than the old stems, which will just clutter things up and not produce many flowers.
00:53:05
Speaker
So that's that that's it really. and then You're not bothering to go to a node or anything like that? you're just going if No, no, no. and know It takes so long, you know, if you start looking for, looking especially for an outward pointy bud and all that sort of stuff, it takes 10 times longer. so yeah, if you want to spend hours in your garden in middle of the winter pruning your roses, fine, but to me it's completely not worthwhile at all.
00:53:36
Speaker
want to get out there and and chop that and I think I produce a much better result plants will just sort themselves out um yeah if a bud is pointing towards the middle then um it'll either fill up the middle nicely or it'll sort of turn around and go towards the light more so it's not something I as long as you've got chosen healthy varieties in the first place then then the health shouldn't be a problem and that's the other thing is is keep roses healthy, actually. if
00:54:07
Speaker
If you have got one, two rose bushes in your garden that off every year get dreadful disease, dig them up and throw them away. you know it's just not worth keeping them because they'll be spreading disease um to the other to their neighbours. So it's like sitting in a room where one one or two people are coughing and sneezing and things like that.
00:54:26
Speaker
yeah it's bounty That's bound to spread to one two other people in the
Designing Famous Rose Gardens
00:54:30
Speaker
room. Or as everybody in the room is is nice and healthy, then you'll all walk ah walk away healthy. So get rid of those disease-ridden plants that may be too old anyway. you know the Plants, roses, have ah like everything has a finite lifespan. So once they get to 15, 20 years, a lot of roses are starting to decline fairly rapidly.
00:54:53
Speaker
That's a good tip, really, because I think people try and... and almost fight against that nature and um and think that they're doing something wrong but in reality it's just you know move on very yeah unfortunately we all get old after a certain time yeah that's it um so you have designed some of the like world's most iconic rose gardens do you have a favorite gosh um A couple times, well, three comes to mind.
00:55:29
Speaker
One is completely goes completely against what I've all been saying this morning, is the garden at the back of Windsor Castle, which was huge, great big beds of one variety per bed. And so in terms of show, that it that was just totally amazing. But it see it goes against everything that I've said about monocultures and things like that.
00:55:51
Speaker
Yeah. ah The other garden, which is not dissimilar, actually, was in Japan near Osaka, which is um was rather different. but that that's That was a tremendous success. But in this in this country, the one that's been very good, actually, ah is um up in north of England called Gwynyard Hall.
00:56:13
Speaker
W Y N Y A R D. Uh, and that's a lovely mix of roses and perennials. And, um, yeah, that was, that's really beautiful. Actually. Well worth the visit, uh, near Middlesbrough.
00:56:26
Speaker
Um, it looked um superb last time i was up there. Beautiful. And what do you think makes a rose border feel magical? a lovely mix of plants and lots of fragrance.
00:56:40
Speaker
um And so it's worth remembering when you choose the plants to go with the roses is to have something that flowers at the same time as the roses. It's no good having a rose flowering in June and then the perennial that is flowering next to it flowering in July because one of the great beauties of it is having flower at the same time. that's the advantage of annuals.
00:57:05
Speaker
flower for much longer than than most perennials. So um yeah, just having that that that beautiful association. and if the the trick to do is to put the two flowers, if you do not know what what plant to put next to a rose or what rose to put next to a plant, get a flower of each and put them next to each other.
00:57:28
Speaker
And sometimes they'll they'll They'll look a horrible. You know, the colors will clash or they just don't look right. Sometimes they say, oh, yeah, that's okay. But then sometimes you put two flowers together and, oh, gosh, yeah, that looks really good. And then that that's to go. It's a very simple trick, but very effective.
00:57:45
Speaker
And then, of course, fragrance. If you got you can go around and and sniff roses. And then so the other trick is to have your most fragrant roses where they're very easily accessible to the nose. It's no good if they're tucked away at the back of the board and you've fight your way through to spell them.
Choosing the Right Roses
00:58:01
Speaker
um you got have them easily accessible even if it means um you know having something seemingly too tall at the front. As long as you plant it far enough away from the edge of the border you don't get attacked every time you walk past then yeah it should be absolutely fine.
00:58:19
Speaker
What about roses for small spaces? Yeah, well, there's roses that fit every size of garden. There's those roses that you buy from your supermarket or or petrol station or something like that. and And I used to be very dismissive of those. But actually, if you look at them carefully, some of them have the most beautiful little flowers. And if you look after them, right, they should last for quite a long time. you know And if they don't, well, you know doesn't matter too much.
00:58:46
Speaker
um but yes a lot of those are sort of sold as indoor plants aren't they absolutely yeah yeah and you know yeah they won't be very happy inside but you know in ah in a in know window box or something like that or in a raised bed they can be really nice really pretty um yeah so and you can get know ones that only grow 18 inches, 2 feet tall, 50, 60 centimeters tall or something like that. so you And then, you of course, you've got the other extreme where you've got ramblers that grow up 20 meters up into trees. So there's a rose to fit every situation in the garden. And that's that's an absolute crucial rule in all aspects of garden, really. But I think especially in roses, people...
00:59:37
Speaker
you know, they they want a climber to cover their six foot wall or fence. And so they they want, i want it to cover it quickly. So they plant something that grows vigorously, And of course it gets up to two meters by the end of the season, but then, you know, it's genes say it's got to go up to, to, um, to 15 meters. So it carries on going and becomes an absolute menace. So be patient, choose a plant that is right for that situation. And then you will be much more satisfied with the end result and you won't have to fight with it at all. Uh,
01:00:11
Speaker
you know, you're known and I imagine in your book, the IHS Rose's book, um, It's all about practical, common sense gardening. What does that mean in practice?
01:00:24
Speaker
Think like a plant. You know, what what what does a what does the plant want? Where does it want to grow? woa what What does it like and not like? I think I have that. i've I think I've always had that. I've always thought like a plant.
01:00:37
Speaker
To me, it's absolutely obvious, but maybe not to everybody. But it's it's just, yeah, trying to think. And one of the great things, of course, is seeing how plants grow in the wild. That's always very valuable, isn't it? So if you are trying grow something in your garden and in completely wrong place, when you realise when you go to see it growing in the wild and you see it growing, that's super. And then to kind of replicate that yourself, I suppose, or realise. Yeah, to have that in mind. And yeah, and then just
01:01:13
Speaker
Yes, it's it's it's no good having a plant that looks miserable in your
Transplanting and Bare Root Advantages
01:01:17
Speaker
garden, is it? It's just um night it just depressing, really. so yeah try and Roses are eminently movable.
01:01:24
Speaker
So even if the rose has been in the ground for for several years, it's actually quite easy to dig them up and move them to a a different situation. And that's true of any practically any plants, all plants in the garden, really. Most plants are eminently movable.
01:01:43
Speaker
Well, plants fight for life, don't they? they you know They're going to survive. Do you think that the doing that in the winter months is a safer bet? Certainly with roses. um yeah Yeah. So now, middle of February is still absolutely fine.
01:02:00
Speaker
Once they start shooting too much, then it becomes a bit more challenging. Always the the crucial thing is to make sure the roots never dry out. So if you dig them up in the middle of winter,
01:02:12
Speaker
or whatever you do it, make sure that the hole is ready so that you can dig them up and bung them straight into their new home or put them in a plastic bag so that the roots don't dry out. I knew somebody in Kentucky, I think it was, who used to move his roses sometimes middle of summer, even though the temperature was the 80s and sort of 30s centigrade. With success?
01:02:41
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, not ideal. I wouldn't recommend it at all. But as long as you do it right, then it's okay. So what we'd have to do then is to chop the shoots down down to sort of 15, 20 centimeters or something like that.
01:02:59
Speaker
And so that it's got lost most of its leaves. And then then make sure it never dries out. Maybe give it a soaking before you plant it and then plant it straight away and give it a good watering. Maybe give it some shade.
01:03:15
Speaker
But yeah, it's so it's it's not, you know, maybe if you're moving house, you want to take a favorite rose with you. it's It's something worth considering, but otherwise not. And that's the other thing is much better to plant ah bear If you're buying new roses your garden, always go for bare root roses rather than containerized roses. You're going to get a much wider choice of roses, a larger choice of of varieties.
01:03:41
Speaker
They're much cheaper. They're much, much, much more environmentally fruit friendly in terms of not requiring a pot or or several litres of compost and then taking a lot ah up a lot of space in a lorry for transport to your to your um to your house.
01:03:59
Speaker
um And also, they'll crucially, they'll they'll establish a lot better. if you if you If you buy a rose in the middle of the summer covered in leaves, it's got a very restricted root system, trying to establish that when it's hot and and dry it's it's it's a real challenge for the plant so that'll suffer from stress and then it won't flower so well get more disease whereas if you plant a bare root rose it'll um that the roots and the shoots will gradually grow in unison as the temperature rises and uh it'll be much much better as a result so yeah a full season to kind of settle itself instead yeah that's right planninging expensive
01:04:42
Speaker
Don't be tempted by to to buy a containerized rose or plant, generally, you know, to try and buy fair route as much as you can.
Podcast Conclusion and Follow-Up
01:04:54
Speaker
Thank you so much for joining me today. If you like the show, don't forget to hit the follow or subscribe button, tell a friend or two, or maybe even give the show five-star rating and a review.
01:05:05
Speaker
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