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Biodesign, biophilic design & biomimicry with Danielle Trofe
201 Plays4 years ago
Welcome to episode 43 of the Green & Healthy Places podcast, brought to you by Biofilico healthy buildings & interiors.
In this episode I’m chatting to Danielle Trofe, a biodesigner with her own studio in New York who also lectures in biomimicry for The Pratt Institute and Parsons New School.
Danielle’s MushLume collection of lampshades made from organically grown mushroom mycelium and hemp have featured in the seriously cool, eco-luxury 1 Hotel Brooklyn Bridge amongst other projects and she is a leading proponent of biofabrication - that is using naturally grown materials in product design.
Our conversation covers all of these ‘bio’ terms that may understandably be new for many of you, we also look into the full Life Cycle impact of a design product from production through to end of life, we discuss how biophilic design can when delivered poorly equate to a largely superficial greenwashing of the interior design process, and we introduce the topic of green chemistry, that is research and development around new bio-based materials that designers such s Danielle can then introduce into future product development.
GUEST / DANIELLE TROFE / BIODESIGNER
- https://danielletrofe.com/
- https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielletrofe
- https://twitter.com/DanielleTrofe
HOST / MATT MORLEY / WELLBEING CHAMPION
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Episode 43
00:00:11
Speaker
Welcome to episode 43 of the Green and Healthy Places podcast, brought to you by Biofilico Healthy Buildings and Interiors. My name's Matt Morley, and in this episode, I'm chatting to Danielle Trofi, a biodesigner with her own studio in New York, who also lectures on biomimicry for the Pratt Institute and Parsons New School.
Danielle Trofi's Work and Biofabrication
00:00:31
Speaker
Danielle's mush loom collection of lampshades made from organically grown mushroom mycelium
00:00:37
Speaker
and Hemp have featured in the seriously cool eco-luxury One Hotel Brooklyn Bridge amongst various other projects and she is a leading proponent of bio-fabrication that is using naturally grown materials in product design as a healthy non-impact alternative to for example using other materials such as plastic.
00:00:58
Speaker
Our conversation covers all of these bio terms that may understandably be new for some of you. We also look at the full lifestyle impacts of product and product design from its initial creation through to its end of life.
Understanding Biodesign and Biofabrication
00:01:13
Speaker
We look at how biophilic design can, unfortunately, when delivered inadequately,
00:01:18
Speaker
be effectively a form of superficial greenwashing of the interior design process. And we introduce the topic of green chemistry that is research and development around new bio-based materials that talented designers such as Danielle then integrate into their future product development. Links to Danielle's work are in the show notes. If you enjoy this episode, please hit like or subscribe. Now it's time to dive in to the wonderful world of bio design.
00:01:47
Speaker
Danielle, thanks for being here with us today for this episode. We're gonna start sort of big picture and then slowly drill down, but let's begin with some terminology. So, bio-design and bio-fabricated design, which is very much your world. How do you describe those with someone who perhaps is coming to this for the first time? Yeah, that's a very good question. What I've kind of determined and what others have determined as
00:02:15
Speaker
in this past decade or maybe even a little bit further, biodesign as a term has kind of come out in two different fields, one in the medical field and one more in the design field. And it's serving a purpose as almost this catch-all term that incorporates biomimicry, biofabrication, biophilic design, and really kind of embodies all these things into one umbrella term.
00:02:45
Speaker
to kind of help those who don't really know what each of those different facets really means so that we can all kind of have the same conversation.
00:02:55
Speaker
So what is the difference between these different things? So we've got biofabrication, which is something that I do. And biofabrication is using a living organism to actually grow the design for you. So you're typically extracting something from nature or not, you can actually grow it in a lab too. And using that living organism to do the producing for you. So you're not doing the manufacturing, the organism is actually doing that.
00:03:25
Speaker
And these types of organisms are mycelium, the roots of mushrooms, bacteria, algae, kombucha.
Biophilic Design and Biomimicry Explained
00:03:38
Speaker
That's kind of this different little subset. And then you've got biophilic design, which is really kind of the visual copying of nature. So we all have biophilia, so we connect to nature. And biophilic design is really kind of tapping into that emotional, that very native energy that we all have.
00:04:06
Speaker
that we want to connect again to nature that we are a part of nature. And then biomimicry is kind of, it's a bit deeper. So it goes into looking at nature's form, process, and ecosystem, these three different levels, and seeing this across these patterns across different taxa, and then drawing out these principles to emulate into human design.
00:04:34
Speaker
And that's a little bit wordy, but I think we can get a little more into that. But I wanted to kind of give a little bit of a primer of Biodesign is a big area that is really divided into subsets of how design can actually be categorized.
00:04:53
Speaker
I think it's very clear that you've done more than grasp the concept. You've mastered those concepts because it's often so difficult to give a pithy, short, succinct description of concepts like that, which you just managed to do. So thank you for that. I think it was really important to set the scene. And I think linked to that
00:05:11
Speaker
You do work in a more, let's say, almost educational role. Before we get into the products that you're creating as a designer, you also do an element of teaching and guest lectures. So it would be really interesting to understand what you're doing there, who your audience are, and the type of subjects that you're talking
Challenges of Teaching Biodesign
00:05:30
Speaker
to. I think primarily around biomimicry. Is that right? Yes, correct. So I've been teaching at Pratt Institute and the New School Parsons.
00:05:41
Speaker
in Manhattan. And I've been teaching biomimicry and also biodesign, kind of that greater area that's not incorporated. So yeah, I think that is the hardest thing. As I try to help orient each of the students to understanding what this new field, and that's really what it is.
00:06:06
Speaker
a new unfolding field that these terms are really being birthed from as we're experimenting with them. So the terminology can also vary from region to region. So I know in the UK and in Germany there's different terminologies for biomimicry,
00:06:29
Speaker
So we're really just as a whole just trying to come up with a language to be able to talk about these particular topics. It's something that I see from where I'm at with a let's call it a largely European view. I think there's so much discussion now especially where we are going into 2022 around
00:06:56
Speaker
healthy buildings and healthy materials on one side and on the other. So kind of the wellness piece around people and how our built environment can have an impact on our health. And on the other side, the impact of the built environment, both positive and negative on the environment, on the planet around us.
00:07:15
Speaker
listening to your descriptions, it's really clear that what you're doing, so let's give it that wider umbrella term of biodesign, sits brilliantly between both. It is not contributing waste, it is not damaging the environment, but it is also producing products and materials that are inherently healthy, and therefore you're bridging the two. There is no distinction between whether it's only good for us or good for the planet.
00:07:44
Speaker
work that you're doing seems to just bridge the two worlds quite neatly.
Lifecycle Analysis in Sustainable Design
00:07:49
Speaker
I think that's a particular angle that I find it just has such potential. Yeah, I would say if done correctly. So let's talk about that. Yeah, there is a maladapted
00:08:04
Speaker
biomimicry or biofabrication or biophilic design. So you could create something that looks exactly like a tree, but if you're using materials that can't be recycled, that take tremendous amount of energy to actually create, that are mined unsustainably, you're not really completing the holistic viewpoint of what biomimicry is or hopefully in the larger sense, biodesign.
00:08:34
Speaker
just because it can fall under that label doesn't really necessarily mean that it's good for both people or the planet. So there really is we and there's nobody really there to judge what it is. So we're kind of evolving together to be able to evaluate our own designs. So even if you are taking inspiration from nature,
00:09:00
Speaker
Do you have the understanding in the toolset to be able to authentically evaluate it in a way that you understand the life cycle, you understand where it's coming from, how it's affecting humans and nature in the process of whatever form it's taking place? And then at the end of its life, how is it going to end or fold back into our systems and cycles?
00:09:28
Speaker
And those are kind of the three major things that any life cycle analysis really taps into. And that definitely has to be brought into the design process, whether that's biophilic design, biodesign, biofabrication, biomimicry.
00:09:47
Speaker
I think one thing that really stands out when you practice biomimicry or learn biomimicry is there's a greater framework for ensuring that the design meets all those needs throughout the process, from inception to actually the production of it, to the use case, and then to the end of life.
Mycelium Lampshades and Biomimicry
00:10:13
Speaker
And this framework kind of ensures that the number one thing in biomimicry is life creates conditions conducive to life. And that's all of life. That's the big L. And you don't often see that kind of aspiration that creates a cornerstone in the other bio-whats, as we call it.
00:10:42
Speaker
And so that's where I feel biomimicry as a whole, as a movement, as a profession, as a discipline, is emerging as a more rigorous framework for creating design that really does take into consideration our health and the health of the planet.
00:11:07
Speaker
And you're very much practicing what you preach in that sense. You apply those same, the theory into a practical application via your own products. And so that in a sense leads us into
00:11:22
Speaker
the mushrooms and the lampshades you're working on or have been working on and that certainly caught my eye originally and that was how we first connected. So why don't we talk a little bit about what you're doing there in terms of actually going into the products yourself rather than just theorizing you're delivering and really creating a great example, a case study in a way of how it can connect with these concepts of biomimicry.
00:11:48
Speaker
Sure. Yeah, so about eight years ago, I started working with this amazing material that was coming out of upstate New York that was created by Ecovative. And it's mushroom mycelium material. And so for anyone who doesn't know what mycelium is, it is the roots of a mushroom. So just like an apple is the fruit of a tree, the mushroom is the fruiting body of this network of mycelia that live beneath the forest floor.
00:12:17
Speaker
In nature, it's the big recycler. It decomposes all dying and decaying matter in a forest or in an ecosystem. It connects all plants in an ecosystem. Actually, nature is communicator. It shares information, can send
00:12:36
Speaker
and warn other plants have been pending danger, distributes water in a forest, nutrients, actually shares nutrients from one side of a forest where it's concentrated to the whole rest of the forest. So it really is this incredible organism that is actually one of the largest terrestrial organisms on the planet. There's one network that's known to be
00:13:04
Speaker
couple thousand years old in Oregon and stretches several football fields long. So we take something like this that has this incredible intelligence and instead of extracting it out of nature like we often do for most of our goods, we are
00:13:23
Speaker
We are inoculating it in a lab and being able to reproduce it in a lab. And then combine this, so that's in a liquid form, it's liquid mycelium, this cells. We're inoculating a substrate that's sustainably harvested, so we use hemp. And we are just like nature do what it does best, is grow. And we're putting it into an environment that it wants to grow in.
00:13:48
Speaker
So the mycelium grows and binds to the hemp. And over a course of just a few days, you will see this white matte structure that actually solidifies all of the hemp. The hemp is used as support material for it to grow into, and also food as well. So cellulose, it wants to digest the cellulose.
00:14:18
Speaker
So to give an understanding of the application of a lampshade, we create these forms, we pack them with the substrate that's already been inoculated, and then we just leave them to grow. We're not adding additional water, energy.
00:14:32
Speaker
into the production process. So our largest lampshade, which is a 24-inch diameter dome, takes about a week to grow. And if you think about this time frame, to be able to use wood, you're looking at anywhere from 25 to 100 years old, years of a tree growing out in nature. And then you're harvesting this and you're putting all this energy into being able to process the material to use it.
00:15:01
Speaker
We are inoculating mycelium in a lab, transporting it a very short distance, and then letting it grow in the course of just a few weeks. You have your end product.
00:15:13
Speaker
So you can already start to see the life cycle change. And the other most important part, which is something that we're not necessarily familiar with, but we're starting to understand its value, is at the end of its life, it's just going to decompose. Traditionally, in the last couple, maybe last hundred years, we've really wanted things to last.
00:15:37
Speaker
We want things to last as long as possible. We want them to be super durable. But we're starting to find out, especially since the invention of plastics, that these might not be the best concepts. And rather than using materials that we're not quite sure how they're going to break down to an elemental form and affect our own bodies, we know exactly what's in these lampshades. And they're going to actually add nutrients back into the soil rather than pollutants.
00:16:06
Speaker
So that's a completely different concept to a lot of our traditional goods. And often people are like, well, is it going to break down in my living room? And it's not. It's actually a very inert material. We do bake it at the end of its growth cycle. And that's mainly to actually damage the cells enough so it won't continue to grow in your living room. It won't spore. It won't shoot off mushrooms.
00:16:31
Speaker
And so those were our potential allergens. So that's mainly why we stop the growth at that level. But it's completely stable, inert material in your living room. There's nothing that's going to break it down or eat it and digest it. And they actually have this incredible soft, almost feels like a lamb's ear.
00:16:54
Speaker
feel to them. So it's something that you actually want to touch. And there's not many lamps out there that inspire you to interact with it. And of course, having that, it's a conversation piece, being able to talk with your guests at the dining room table about the fixture that's overhead.
00:17:18
Speaker
I even have recounted the story already of how when we first connected and I was asking, I think I needed an order of 40 or 50 of these lamps. You're like, look, well, I got to grow these things first. So you've got to give me four to six weeks just to get her. And it was just a completely different way of thinking about purchasing something. And indeed, as you're rightly pointing out,
00:17:41
Speaker
how long it will be with us and how long we really need something to be with us and where that sweet spot is between durability and practicality and on the other extreme, you know, frankly, something that is impossible to break down and that will therefore always be on the planet and therefore just ends up polluting. I think that what you're doing is especially interesting on that basis. But I wondered whether the lampshade had anything inherently
00:18:11
Speaker
suited to this particular medium. So could you have done any other number of things? I mean, you went for that. Have you got an entire collection in your mind of where you'd like to go with the material? Or is there something about the lampshade that is best suited to this working with mycelium?
00:18:29
Speaker
Yeah, so that's an excellent question. Part of the story was, so Ecovative at the time was working mainly in packaging, so using the material to displace Styrofoam, which is a fantastic use for it. And we reached out to them and we ordered samples and we wanted to start working with them.
00:18:52
Speaker
And with the idea of using it for a lampshade, and it was kind of a crazy idea at that level eight years ago, and it ended up being one of the best use cases for it because of the material's properties.
00:19:07
Speaker
So to give everyone a better idea of it, when fully grown, it's very lightweight. It almost feels, has the density of styrofoam, but has a much softer, nicer exterior coat, which is actually the mycelium. So when you feel the lampshade,
00:19:26
Speaker
it you're feeling the outside of the mycelium that has grown and what we call it's standoff. So you can actually tune the material so you can grow it thicker, you can grow it not as thick, you can kind of play with a little bit of coloring so it actually naturally expresses color. So we do have some that are not completely white and that's the other thing about them. Once it's grown the mycelium is actually white
00:19:55
Speaker
naturally, and that's how we leave them. So there's not any paint that's added to them, that's just the natural form that the mycelium takes. And yeah, so we originally thought of a lampshade for it, or I thought of a lampshade for it, and it became a great use case because
00:20:16
Speaker
Uh, the material is really structurally sound. It's great for packaging for single use packaging. Um, but it has limitations in terms of, you know, it's difficult for high use chair or stool or something that is going to get bumped up against, rubbed up against, knocked over.
00:20:35
Speaker
over time at my chip wear crack. So for something that's not in a high use place that's hanging above your ceiling or your table lamp that's not always being touched or knocked over, it's a perfect case for it. And we've really been able to explore with different shapes as well, especially earlier on we did a lot of
00:20:58
Speaker
very interesting shapes. And through this process, we also had to kind of realize, well, what does it take to become a stable product? So there was a number of years of getting over shipping issues, of modifying the form so that when they ship, they don't crack or break or
00:21:19
Speaker
that the way that they're constructed together, they can be installed by the consumer, not just a professional.
Business Growth and Commercialization
00:21:28
Speaker
So there were all the other logistical parts that really go into creating a product that, one, as a designer, and this was my first lighting product, I was not aware of. So there was a huge learning curve. And also just getting to a place where this biotechnology could be
00:21:48
Speaker
could be mastered in a way that all the contamination issues were contained so there are huge learning curves of bringing this biotechnology to a place where you could commercialize a product and right.
00:22:02
Speaker
where we are now is kind of the culmination of that. I work now with a company. I used to grow everything in Brooklyn, New York. I had a studio space here and I would grow each one by hand. And just over this past year, year and a half, we moved production to a company out in California who now grows all the lampshades.
00:22:26
Speaker
for the studio. So we're able to finally expand past my own capabilities and really grow during this last year. And it's been a fantastic year of growth. You're really seeing not just the general public, but industry start to really opt in to bio design.
00:22:52
Speaker
And it's very encouraging because at the beginning of starting to work with this material, no one really knew what mycelium was. It was kind of a new term. Ball stamens really deserves all the credit for bringing mycelium to the forefront, bringing mushrooms to the forefront.
00:23:10
Speaker
And the conversations really shifted in the last five years. So people know what mycelium is. There's all these startups around the world now working with mycelium, where when I first started, there was maybe a handful around the world. We're talking single digits.
Exploring Algae in Biodesign
00:23:29
Speaker
So it's really been larger than just one studio or just a few companies. It's now,
00:23:35
Speaker
So many young startups working around biomaterials because they see the value in. Creating new products that are not going to necessarily pollute the planet or provide a negative impact.
00:23:56
Speaker
The other big player then that I think deserves a mention in our conversation is algae, which seems to be as often mentioned in the same breath along with mycelium. Are you working with algae? Have you got experience of the challenges and opportunities of working with that particular biomaterial?
00:24:18
Speaker
Yeah, just when I started working with it, and it was for a completely different project, I ended up closing the studio to shift a little bit. But we do work with it in terms of we've started working with an algae-based pigment to color the lampshades.
00:24:41
Speaker
We haven't launched it yet, but we're working with artists and designers to actually paint on our lampshades using algae ink. And so this is another startup company that's, I believe they're in Colorado, and they've developed a ink pigment just derived from algae.
00:25:02
Speaker
which is fantastic. So that's pretty much the capacity that we have been working with algae. But there's also these amazing startups using algae to grow fibers and to be able to start affecting the fashion industry by creating sustainable fibers.
00:25:25
Speaker
So there really is just a plethora of new ideas that are
Education and Industry Recognition
00:25:31
Speaker
trickling out. And a lot of this is happening. It's starting at the higher education level. It's starting in universities and colleges. There's the Biodesign Challenge, which is a nonprofit organization that has a worldwide competition for young students to be able to create biodesign
00:25:56
Speaker
applications and then have them be judged by professionals within the field. And there's been so many startups that have come from just these kinds of competitions. And you're really starting to see this field being driven by people that are under 30. So and I really I do believe it's the generation that's underneath mine that is really going to power everything.
00:26:22
Speaker
in terms of sustainability because they've inherited something that generations before did not inherit. And there has to be action. So I think a lot of the biodesign field is really about taking action is not necessarily just the study and the concept of it, but how are we actually going to make the goods that restore balance back to our larger ecosystems? And that's, I think, where you start to see the connections between
00:26:52
Speaker
designers and brands that share a similar philosophy. The One Hotel brand arguably has been leading the charge in the hospitality sphere. I think they sort of reinvented what eco luxury could mean. It has always struggled to hit that five star.
00:27:11
Speaker
market until one hotels came along and showed what could be done. And then you get the big project with them in Brooklyn Bridge. So can you talk to us a bit about that? It was a few years back, but it's a big one in terms of the name, the prestige and the seal of approval that it gives to you. And I think in general, what they're doing to push the sustainability message within an industry that hasn't always been at the forefront of adopting this green and healthy approach, right?
00:27:41
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, no, it was fantastic working with One Hotel. It really was that project that elevated our lampshades to the next level. We did 100 plus, I think it was around like 130 lampshades, this huge cloud of them in the presidential suite at the One Hotel Brooklyn Bridge. And just working with One Hotel as a partner,
00:28:08
Speaker
It was really fantastic because they understood the value. We had the same messaging and to share those values and be able to create different kinds of opportunities where the public can participate. For instance, we had a exhibit at Industry City
00:28:32
Speaker
where people could come in and see the lampshades being grown for the hotel. So we did a month-long gallery exhibit and hosted some events there. So anybody could actually come in and see the process, seeing the growing process. Because one of the things I realized is to hear the conversation that we're having now, it's really difficult to not see, physically see, feel the material and watch the process. So demystifying that experience
00:29:02
Speaker
Was really valuable and we also hosted some events with their With their staff as well. So everybody's really engaged and buying in to To just what the value of the hotel represents as well as their their clients and yeah, and it was gorgeous the
00:29:25
Speaker
It's still up there today, and the images that we got from that really kind of captured the possibilities of what the lampshades could do and have inspired a few other hotel installations, and we really have grown from that. I think those images, when we were able to share those,
00:29:48
Speaker
It really did solidify that this is not just a case study, this is not just a single project, but this is actually a commercialized project product.
00:30:05
Speaker
And that differentiation was huge because you're really getting out of this like boutique small niche and you're expanding into let's compete against other big brands for lighting. And we've really seen a lot of growth since then and adoption. For sure, I can imagine.
Sustainable Products and Future Goals
00:30:26
Speaker
And you've also got a vertical garden product that looks to be essentially sort of an upright
00:30:31
Speaker
vertically oriented planter for multiple plants. I'm wondering if you've got more things in the pipeline, where do you go from here? What's next for you as a designer and as a business? Yeah, so the vertical garden was actually originally a hydroponic vertical garden. So that was the first product I ever created. And we launched that with one design, I think back in like 2012. And
00:31:02
Speaker
It really kind of grew into, we did a couple installations with BMW. The vertical garden now exists in the Brooklyn Botanic Garden. So if you go to their visitor center, you can see it there.
00:31:16
Speaker
It's something that hasn't completely come to full realization, mainly because I started getting into the lighting and that kind of took off. But it's something I do want to bring back. And one of the main reasons this was lagging is because at the time, there wasn't the tools to be able to create those planter pods. They look kind of look like alien
00:31:38
Speaker
eggs, if you will. So we created them out of thermoformed plastic. And it kind of went against everything that me as a designer and as a studio believed in. So we've kind of been in this holding pattern to get to the right materiality and the right process to be able to recreate this. And that's actually being done right now with many more sustainable materials. We're actually looking at upcycling food waste.
00:32:08
Speaker
to be able to be used into the ceramics of the planter pods. So that's definitely something that's happening in the future and currently happening. So we hope to actually come out with a full product and not just an installation, staying with the same principles that we have with the lighting. And I think for future
00:32:34
Speaker
It's a good question. I recently became a mom. So a lot of things have really shifted. And I see, I think one of the things that as going through this, this my own evolution with biomimicry with bio design,
00:32:51
Speaker
and becoming a mother is I was made aware of the fact that even a fetus can contain over 100 different man-made chemicals at that stage. And just learning about different products that are available for kids and for infants. And it's extremely, extremely difficult to find healthy materials.
00:33:19
Speaker
for children as well as for interiors. And so I think that's the next thing I want to get into is green chemistry and being able to actually bring products that are not toxic to our environments and to fruition. And I think that's the main thing is keeping everyone healthy as well as the environment.
00:33:46
Speaker
So the green chemistry thing for those who perhaps not clued up on it, that's really where the R&D is taking place and that then facilitates people such as yourself as a designer to then create the products that you envision.
00:34:03
Speaker
that then are sold to the industry in a commercial way to people like One Hotels and any other hotel brands or other clients out there. And I think those three pieces, in a sense, one conversation has sort of straddled those three elements, right? Because if you haven't got the green chemistry,
00:34:22
Speaker
providing you with what you need, the tools and the materials to do what you do to create the products, then the products don't materialize. But if there isn't also the consumer, the end market there to make it a viable business, then the products don't materialize. And so this sort of delicate dance is what I'm getting from you around sort of pushing things
00:34:46
Speaker
ready or the technical R&D side, the green chemistry isn't ready, then you almost have to pause a product like you did with the vertical gardens, leave it there until the technology catches up. And then hopefully the market is ready to then buy that product. And so it's complex, but it's clearly, you know, you're right in the thick of it and contributing to it and pushing it forward. And that's the only way that it's going to keep progressing, right? It's people doing what you're doing.
00:35:14
Speaker
No, exactly. And I think, um, I think what you're doing, the value of podcasts is the only reason why these fields are advancing is the communication of them is the communication of these ideas and, um, you know, getting the understanding of the basics of what bio design is, bio mimicry, biophilia, all of the bio, what's, um, to those that are participating in the industry, as well as consumers, um, cause consumers are driving the demand for
00:35:44
Speaker
These things as well, clients are asking for things that are more sustainable. And they're also starting to ask the questions, well, where does this come from and how is it made?
00:35:53
Speaker
And I think those are the and where does it end up will be the next question that they're going to ask. So I think when we start to ask those three questions at every stage of the design process, we really the holistic sustainability is built into and built into the design if you're continuously asking yourself those things.
00:36:16
Speaker
Great. Well, listen, thank you so much. It feels like we're all pointing in the same direction, hopefully, trying to make a little bit of a difference, right? That's the game. So just out of interest, your products are available in Europe. Are you US only at the moment? So if we have listeners both in Europe and in the US, how can they connect with you and eventually become a part of what you're doing?
00:36:35
Speaker
Yeah. So in the US, you can go to DanielleTrophy.com and that's T-R-O-F-E. And then in Europe, we are available through Grown.Bio. So G-R-O-W-N.Bio. Awesome. We'll put the links in the show notes. Thank you so much for your time. It was great. Thank you. I enjoyed it.