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Ep. 2: Managing PDA in a mainstream classroom
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Podcast Show Notes – Managing PDA in a mainstream classroom
In this episode, host Rachel talks with guest speaker Kelly Evans about the challenges PDA children face in mainstream education. We explore why schools can be overwhelming, the importance of trust, how strong links between families and schools make a difference, and what adjustments can help PDA learners feel safe and supported.
Kelly shares practical strategies around softening transitions, supporting unstructured times like playtime and lunchtime, and accommodating sensory needs in the classroom. Together, Rachel and Kelly discuss ways to promote engagement when children appear resistant to learning, and highlight what can make school a more positive experience.
Deeper Dive Subscriber Episode
For those who’d like to go further, Part 2, an exclusive “Deeper Dive” subscriber episode is available through our Training Hub. You can access it here: https://training.pdasociety.org.uk/pda-podcasts/
Deep Diver Subscriber Episode
For those who’d like to go further, an exclusive “Deep Diver” subscriber episode is available through our Training Hub. You can access it here: https://training.pdasociety.org.uk/pda-podcasts/
Disclaimer
The views and opinions expressed by guest speakers in this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of the PDA Society. While we aim to provide balanced and inclusive discussions, individual experiences and perspectives may vary. The PDA Society is committed to using language and terminology that reflects the preferences of PDA/autistic people, but sometimes our guests may use language and terminology which differs. Appearance on our podcast is not an endorsement of an individual, and not all of our guests will align with our position on the issues discussed.
Further sources of support and information:
PDA Society training hub: https://training.pdasociety.org.uk/pda-podcasts/
PDA Society Website: https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/
PDA Society Training: https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/support-and-training/training/
PDA Society Support Service: https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/support-and-training/support/
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to PDA Society Podcast
00:00:02
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the PDA Society's podcast. We're here to chat about all things PDA to help you understand what people with this profile of autism are experiencing and how you can help.
00:00:13
Speaker
We'll be sharing research, professional expertise and the insights of people with lived experience to help you understand PDA and have more tools to make life easier.
Meet the Host and Theme of the Episode
00:00:24
Speaker
So whether you're a PDA yourself, a family member, friend or professional trying to make a difference, welcome from everybody at the PDA Society. We hope you'll find this useful.
00:00:36
Speaker
Hello, my name is Rachel and I'm your host for this podcast. Today we're going to be looking at the topic of helping PDA children succeed in mainstream schools. So we know that some are able to overcome and the difficulties they have, but for others it becomes just too overwhelming and they're unable to carry on attending.
00:00:55
Speaker
So we know that many PDA children experience increased anxieties in mainstream school. So whether you have a child who is currently struggling with school or you're an educational professional finding it difficult to engage your PDA learners, I'm sure you're going to find today's discussion really, really helpful.
Kelly Evans' Experience with PDA Children
00:01:14
Speaker
and So today I'm delighted to be joined by our um special guest for this week, Kelly Evans. I'll let Kelly introduce herself. So welcome, Kelly. And would you like to introduce yourself?
00:01:26
Speaker
Yeah, thanks, Rachel. so and So, yeah, I'm Kelly. i've been um ah well I've been a primary school teacher for many years, over 20 years. ah Currently I'm an autism advisor for local authority.
00:01:39
Speaker
So I've had plenty of experience of of working with PDA individuals, with schools. So I've had PDAs in my class and I've also been on the other side of things where I'm going in and supporting ah the teachers themselves to support ah those PDAs within their classrooms. So yes, alongside that, I've been working for the PDA Society for a few years and I have two daughters, both autistic, but my eldest one is autistic with a with a PDA profile. so
00:02:11
Speaker
Yeah, so home and homeman school. Yeah, so a wealth of experience then that you can share. That's amazing. Okay,
Challenges for PDA Children in Mainstream Schools
00:02:19
Speaker
great. So I think probably the best place to start would be and to think thinking about, you know, for a PDA child, why ah schools so challenging places for them? what you know Why do they find a mainstream school difficult?
00:02:35
Speaker
For many reasons. Yeah. but And those reasons can change and they can change sort of ah daily or weekly and they can change with sort of um growing up and and in different environments.
00:02:50
Speaker
But what it comes down to is is the the amount of demands that come within a school environment. There are so many unknowns.
00:03:02
Speaker
There's the social side of things to deal with. There's obviously the education on the and and the work side. and And so the demands just add to that level of anxiety. And we know with a PDA ah that that anxiety is so high because of of those demands within within the world. um They can be full of rules.
00:03:26
Speaker
They can, for some, be really quite inflexible. So it's it really can be an environment where a young person can feel unsafe, really.
00:03:38
Speaker
yeah yeah And that can be really tricky for them. And and that, of course, then adds to their to their anxiety. And it's there is so much, and and obviously we'll we'll go through that as we go along, that that we can do to support. but in an environment that is unpredictable can feel unsafe with demands thrown at them literally the minute they walk through the door if if you're not you know from before.
00:04:03
Speaker
ah It's yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot. yeah Yeah. And I suppose you know his schools are as you say rule driven environments. And in it because they have to be you know to keep everybody safe.
00:04:14
Speaker
Absolutely. But for a PTA that can just be overwhelming. And I suppose then as well then when when you add on other things so the social element and also sort of key years you know year six is a difficult yeah an difficult year Yeah, whole new changes.
00:04:32
Speaker
Yeah any of those big transitions and and just yeah the exams or the different you know the options or SATs so so or just changing class yeah and then of course when you get to secondary you have different teachers and different approaches and yeah things can can end up being that little bit more tricky as well then.
00:04:54
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. money mean and So, it's yeah, it's not difficult, is it, to see why it is very, very overwhelming for PDAs.
Building Trust with PDA Children at School
00:05:01
Speaker
So on that basis then, so how important then is the trust in adults and that who are the you know the ones that are either teaching PDA children or maybe they're TA in the class or part of the pastoral team.
00:05:15
Speaker
How important are those, is trust in adults for PDA children to make them feel safe in school? i think trust will be the word that i end up saying repeatedly to be honest throughout the whole the whole thing because it's so important it can be the key thing that enables that PDA ah to attend school and and be successful so those trusted
00:05:48
Speaker
relationships, those that are built on that real understanding from that person who is supporting. It can help to reduce anxiety. We know that masking can be reduced because they are able to be themselves.
00:06:03
Speaker
they feel safe. and And if we go back to the previous question where we so where we were sort of saying, you know, that those environments can be really un feel unsafe. Of course, you know, we know that they're not, but it's how that that the PDA will sort of see that and feel that.
00:06:18
Speaker
ah And without that person there who can sort of see what that PDA needs, understand them. And that that that trusting relationship is is so key.
00:06:32
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. um i And I guess then that's, it comes down to how much time, um and but you know, sort of an adult at the school is invested in getting to know that PDA so that they can read those triggers really, really well, you know, that they can see when that anxiety is increasing and take those steps, isn't it?
00:06:51
Speaker
And having access, I suppose, as well to that. ah Yeah. And I know, know, being in the classroom myself, I know it's you think, oh, am I gonna have to have an extra adult that needs to be able to do that? And we don't have the funding and we don't and that's difficult. And, yeah you know, of course, absolutely, that is, but it's actually just with those adults that are there. It doesn't necessarily have to be someone specifically, sort of one to one with that individual, although for some, you know, of course, that will be needed. But it's just by having that understanding,
00:07:23
Speaker
ah the PDA will will sense they will know that you get them yeah and they'll know that you get them because you're there and you're as you were saying you're pre-empting as much as you can so right well that situation might be tricky or I can see they're struggling they're showing some of those sort of signs of of i trying to distract and and, you know, all those sort of lower level signs maybe that they might show.
00:07:53
Speaker
and And that trusted individual or, ah you know, and those around them supporting can reduce demands when needed. And of course of course, push a little bit when they're able to, when that tolerance of demands are there. But yeah, without that trusting and that trusted adult, that's, it can be,
00:08:16
Speaker
really really really tough isn't it and i think also isn't it i think very often um it's the trusted adults that see the real person they see that they see the real pda yeah which is often why then we hear that when children come home from school they have the meltdown they have the explosive behavior with the parents because the parents are trusted but actually if a if a teacher in school is starting to see all of these behaviours, in a way that's sort of a good thing because it yeah means that that trust is there, isn't it?
00:08:49
Speaker
Yeah. And we know that that that that is a good thing. And and actually seeing some of those behaviours and having you proactive strategies to help support them is exactly what what you want because they're able to unmask, but they feel safe to do that. Then the supports are in place around them.
00:09:09
Speaker
and things are more successful. Whereas when that individual maybe is masking, know, keeping all that in, then you get that, that Coke bottle effect, that, that 315 explosion where it becomes really tricky for the family, for for the individual, of course, because they've, they've built that up all all day and they have to let it out.
00:09:31
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Communication Between Families and Schools
00:09:33
Speaker
That's great. So on that basis, then, is it only the child's teacher and teaching assistants or the people that are actually in the class with the child that need to be aware of PDA in school? Or is it helpful for other staff to be aware as well?
00:09:47
Speaker
It's helpful for everybody. And in fact, it it's crucial for everyone. Because you will have teacher changes, you will be in the playground with different individuals, different year groups.
00:10:01
Speaker
And that ethos really of the of the school and that understanding is crucial because then the right supports are in place because otherwise what you can find is that there is certain classes or certain people and you know that that's quite common anyway because people build that sort of bond and and trust but what needs to happen is everyone needs to be aware because it can so easily be someone stepping in who doesn't know maybe the the correct way what's best for them what signs they're showing and then things can go sort of 0 to 60 very quickly and um yes it so so everybody and and that's even for those that
00:10:52
Speaker
but may not think they're going to have that that time or or that interaction with the the student, and it's still important to be aware. Yeah. Because of questions from other other pupils as well. You you will get, you know, well, why are they doing that? what the What's that? And and for for that individual, that that that adult, to be able to explain it where appropriate it is important.
00:11:15
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think, you know, also, I think as as well as other teaching staff, it's that it's, you know, the canteen staff, the dinner supervisors, isn't it? Because, you know, certainly know I know with my PDAS, you know so many incidents have happened at lunchtime, so out of the classroom, the class yeah teachers done everything right, but the lunchtime supervisors didn't know how what to say and what not to say to him.
00:11:39
Speaker
And that's then when all the meltdowns start happening. Of course. Yeah, because um an incident has happened at lunchtime. So yeah. Yeah. and And you know, people are well meaning and they what they have thought their sort of autism knowledge. ah But of course, as we know, that sort of goes so far, but we need a totally different sort of approach with it with our PDA is and yeah, it's it's crucial that everybody everybody is aware.
00:12:06
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Managing Transitions and Sensory Overload
00:12:08
Speaker
Okay. So, so just thinking about, um, So the child as a whole, lot whole obviously, you know, we've got that they've got their managing demands in school and managing demands at home and managing demands wherever else they are.
00:12:22
Speaker
So how important then is that link between the child's family and school staff in ensuring that the child can help feel safe when they're at school? with What role, if you like, of the family got to play and how important is that communication between the two?
00:12:38
Speaker
a key role and but for for several reasons, really. One is's is that actually you may get a different presentation between home and school and there may be that sort of build up in the morning ah that maybe looks like it isn't there at nine o'clock when they come into school.
00:12:56
Speaker
But actually that feedback and that that link with with home could mean that that information is then passed on. We know how that PDA is. We know how they're feeling.
00:13:07
Speaker
And it means that we everybody works together. It's a team yeah with that PDA or at the heart and and very much part of, but that that team to work for the best for that individual.
00:13:24
Speaker
and And I've seen the best outcomes are from school and home and the individual themselves all working together. Mm-hmm.
00:13:37
Speaker
collaboratively. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's key. Yeah. And I, ah you know, I guess what you're saying is then is that, you know, whatever has happened at home, that is going to influence school. It's not, it's not like the child's right. Okay. oh I'm going to keep that bit of anxiety for him at home. That anxiety is going to be brought into school, isn't it?
00:13:55
Speaker
And likewise going the other way. And therefore having that communication and knowing what's going on, what's happened in school or what's happened at home just beforehand can help inform different strategies in that moment.
00:14:10
Speaker
It can. And, and you know, if I think of myself with with my um my child, it's things through email. It's you know quick, quick messages, quick, you anyway, quick phone calls, anything that you can do to help to know where they are when they walk into school.
00:14:30
Speaker
Yes. And, you know, that might not be every day, but there will be things that will happen and you'll think, oh, OK, we're running on a bit of empty here. We're not tolerating it demands this morning particularly well. You know, our our tolerance is low.
00:14:44
Speaker
If that information is then passed on to school, they can start at that level rather than going in in at a you more demanding level. They can pull back a bit.
00:14:55
Speaker
They can mean it can mean that that that morning can. just run much more smoothly. Yeah. the rest of the day Yeah, yeah, exactly. And at the end of the day, that's what we want, isn't it? We want the child to feel comfortable and safe in school and then help, you know, giving that bit of notice of when they are struggling actually can mean that they can have a little bit of a softer start, which actually brings us me on to the next question.
00:15:20
Speaker
Can softening the beginning or the end of the day also be helpful um to you know improve engagement in mainstream school for PDAs? Yeah, it can. If you think of demands and you think of the minute they open their eyes in the morning, those demands come flooding in, you know, they have to open their eyes if we sort of simply think about that real simple one first thing.
00:15:44
Speaker
And of course, all that that then comes at them from getting out of bed to getting ready to to eating, drinking, all those other things, getting dressed and getting out the door. That's that's a lot.
00:15:56
Speaker
And some mornings that will go better than it will others. us And so having that sort of agreement there with school about that soft start of the day. And that can look different in different schools and and with different individuals.
00:16:14
Speaker
It may be that there is sort of a ah ah window of time where that that pupil is able to come in and and and still classed as as okay.
00:16:25
Speaker
It can be that, okay, that's a set time to come in. But actually, it's not straight into tutor, it's not straight into the classroom or in assembly and register. It's okay, we're in the quiet room, we're doing some Lego, we're doing a chosen it activity, top topic of interest activity, just just to create a positive transition, really, and put them in the best way possible um start really for foot again for for the rest of the day.
00:16:58
Speaker
And it can be going in through a different door. ah It can be avoiding that sensory overload that they may then have when everybody else is coming in and that social moment that that that you get sort of at that that start of that school day when everybody's there.
00:17:15
Speaker
It can look like one-to-one time with with the teacher. It can, you know, TA, or or the lady in the office. So, you know, I've i've seen it work sort of many different ways. yeah And all of those help in discussion with the PDA, if if appropriate, to look at, you know, what what can this mother the mornings look like?
00:17:36
Speaker
And how can we make those a softer start? yes And the same for the end of the day. yeah does Does that need to be five minutes earlier to avoid the rush? Does it need...
00:17:49
Speaker
that decompression time of whatever that could look like for them, whether that's climbing on the climbing frame or reading a book in the corner, whatever they need to sort of decompress the day to help with that transition to mean that less of that possible explosion at at quarter past three. So those, those beginnings and ends are key transitions where It doesn't always need one-to-one support. It can be while the teachers, um I've known it, the teachers getting on and because it's a busy time but in the morning trying to get everything ready for the class, but just sitting in the corner reading a book might be enough or helping with jobs.
00:18:29
Speaker
a Yes, yeah PDA is like that responsibility, don't they? Absolutely, they do. and it And it gives them a focus to sort of step over that that threshold, get into school, bit of a distraction, ah low demand time.
00:18:44
Speaker
And so that the the beginning and end of the day ah key areas to look at. Yeah. Yeah. And as you say, you know, the reasonable adjustments that you make, it's not just about changing that start time, which it will be for some. so For others, they can get to school on time. They just can't actually engage in learning at that time. like And we have to give them grounding activities. And, you know, as you say, yeah.
00:19:09
Speaker
and activities that they are not going to find anxiety provoking before then we might start engaging in learning. Yeah. You know, so thinking about the beginning of the day, that's quite obvious, I think, as to why we might need to make those accommodations for many PDA is because there are so all those morning demands, aren't there? There are so many demands from the minute you're asked to wake up yeah until you get to school and that transition into school.
00:19:36
Speaker
Yeah. And so thinking about the softening softening of the end of the day, is that purely then about the fact that they've they've run out of capacity to cope?
00:19:48
Speaker
with in get m learning or you will you also touched on about the the avoiding that busyness at the end of the day for some children is it more sensitive maybe or is it?
00:19:59
Speaker
Yeah so it will just be they've the battery's dead yeah that they they just can't do anymore and I've known for some you know that that actually means they finish sort of after lunch, for some they'll they can go till the end of the day. um but what they do need is that that time there to just decompress, but also that sensory overload.
00:20:22
Speaker
So for PDA, the overload of of lights and sounds and smells and social interaction, then of course demands but and underpinning all of that,
00:20:38
Speaker
can be just overwhelming. So by giving them that chance to leave that little bit up earlier maybe than some, it means that they're getting their bag when 29 other children aren't.
00:20:52
Speaker
yeah they're They're walking out of the school in a quiet, calm environment because as we know, the end of the day is ah is always busy. and And that just takes that away. And and if that's what's,
00:21:07
Speaker
going to mean that they're in a better frame from the next morning at nine o'clock, then then great all for the rest of the evening for the family. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, no that's great.
00:21:19
Speaker
OK, so we know that lessons can be full of demands for PDA is so what about just thinking about that non directed time, such as maybe lunchtime or playtime for younger children?
Unstructured Times and PDA Challenges
00:21:34
Speaker
Do PDAs find those times easier or do they find it more difficult? um You know, sort of are their demands wrapped up in that time that as adults we think, oh, okay, this is their time to decompress.
00:21:47
Speaker
But actually, is that what PDAs do or do they find it difficult? will be different for all of course but for many a PDA are actually those non-directed times the times where it's sort of for free and and you would imagine that like we say that oh great you know that that's time for them that that will be that will be great but you're put into often a noisy chaotic in the sense of that's just children. Um, and that, that sort of running around in the playground or, or if you think of secondary, a lot of movement in, in hallways, it's the social demands that are there.
00:22:30
Speaker
and so you've got your groups talking at secondary or you're going to the the lunch hall and and you've got all those, right? Well, I've got to get to those places and I, now I need to think what I possibly, what I need for lunch.
00:22:42
Speaker
Um, I now need to talk to people. i need to navigate that whole social experience that happens at a break time, lunch time situation.
00:22:55
Speaker
And they really want to be part of that often. ah Many a PDA are will really be quite social or have that that want to be really social. But what we do know is that that sort of surface presentation that that they're showing actually underlying that is a real struggle to understand some of those sort of unwritten, written social rules that that that are out there that, that of course, so create demands within those as well. You know, what do I need to say? What should I be doing?
00:23:32
Speaker
yeah it can be an incredibly difficult time for them. um And I guess that it's it's also compounded by, and as you say, you you've got the social, you' got the sensory stuff, but it's also compounded by the fact that they've got choice, but yeah but it's almost like they've got too much choice. Where to go, who to speak to, what we're going to talk about, what we're going to play, what am I going to eat?
00:23:57
Speaker
And it's almost like that option paralysis thing, isn't it? It's like it doesn't feel safe because there's not as many parameters as there are in the classroom, I guess. Yeah, that that's right. There's just this sudden sort of,
00:24:10
Speaker
everything going on and that that, in the sense of that freedom and all those different choices and that can again, create that demand of, well, I, but I need to make this one. I need to do this and I need to do that.
00:24:24
Speaker
yeah What should I be doing? that Those perceived demands that are there, which are all there in the PDA's head. um But of course for them, that that that's what they're experiencing.
00:24:35
Speaker
and And so those times can, can be tricky for them. And I've seen, i've seen schools do that differently. They've created sort of little lunchtime clubs, they've created you know Lego or Dungeons and Dragons or ah you know, things that maybe fit around their best, their preferred interests. And I've seen train clubs, you know, helping others helping the younger children.
00:25:07
Speaker
so of course, with in discussion and and appropriate for the for the PDA. yeah But yeah, thinking about what can be put in to create a little bit more structure for them. But of course, based on on what they feel is is right for them.
00:25:25
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. like can I can remember speaking to and one parent whose child was really, really struggling and and it was particularly at lunchtime because of that option paralysis, that whole, you know, well, there are as many parameters. What do I do? yeah And this child particularly liked playing chess.
00:25:41
Speaker
So, um the parent asked the school, can he set up a chess club? So if you think about it, for you know for a PDA, it's thats it's his favourite specialist interest. He was really good at it.
00:25:53
Speaker
Also, if it's his club, he says the does the rules. Absolutely. In collaboration, obviously, with the teachers. But it yeah you know it was always like that bit of responsibility. In charge of that. Yep. Yeah. And it really made a difference for them. It really, really did. So I guess it's, yeah, it's looking at, okay, what does the child, where, you know, what activity does the child feel safe doing and can they set up a club? Can they have some role within that club?
00:26:18
Speaker
um And that will feed into that, you know, sort of, and you know, liking that responsibility. So yeah, there's lots of options, isn't there? Oh yeah. yeah Yeah, there is. And it's,
00:26:31
Speaker
Yeah, it's just sort of looking and and chatting to them and and sort of looking at and knowing what what do they like? What's their favourite things? Thinking about what sort of structure we can put into that without being too much being over overwhelming yeah and then then having that lead on it and and taking that that control element.
00:26:54
Speaker
Yeah, no that's great. ah we we We touched on and the next um question a little bit but let's just see if we can dig a little bit more into it.
Sensory Overload in Classrooms
00:27:04
Speaker
So we've mentioned sensory in and a little bit earlier on but Why would a PDA child find a mainstream classroom particularly overwhelming from a sensory point of view?
00:27:16
Speaker
And have you got any suggestions of how those m sensory needs could be accommodated? Yeah, so I suppose you've got the the sort of more obvious ones of there being lots of people within our our mainstream classes. We've got possibly 30, maybe even slightly more, obviously maybe slightly less, but but usually around that.
00:27:39
Speaker
And that's that's overwhelming in itself. They're not massive spaces, so you're quite confined or could feel quite confined. ah You are...
00:27:51
Speaker
possibly sat in rows or in groups. You've got the lights. You've got the the noise of other people in the corridor. You've got the noise of the other students.
00:28:04
Speaker
You've got the whiteboard. You've got the chairs scraping on the floor. You've got pens tapping. You've got, you know, and you could go on. yeah The overwhelm.
00:28:15
Speaker
the sensory overwhelm that that you can have from from being in those classrooms, the displays to yeah to everything, it it really is ah is quite a lot.
00:28:26
Speaker
And there's, they can be unpredictable. There's 29 other children in there and and that PDA doesn't have that control over what all those 29 are doing. And of course that creates that unpredictability, that feeling, that anxiety, the unsafe feelings, that not knowing, the uncertainty. So it's it's about a number of things such as stepping into that classroom either with the PDA-er or just by yourself to start with and looking sort of doing a bit of a sensory audit really of, okay, what could be an overload here?
00:29:08
Speaker
If appropriate, obviously including the PDA ah ah themselves and and asking them, you know, where are you finding things tricky within this environment? I've seen individuals have their own space.
00:29:20
Speaker
So their own table where pens and pencils aren't being touched by others. ah they can have it as as they want to. For some they want to be in a corner, they'll want to be maybe by an exit so that they can step out and just have that that break when needed.
00:29:37
Speaker
They might need to have a difference in tables, so it could be standing desks, it can be moving you know wobble cushions on chairs, it can be kickboards, it things that and that will help to give them some of that sensory feedback, or in the case of stepping outside of the classroom, that sort of sensory break from that overload.
00:30:00
Speaker
For some, it will be using things like ear defenders. And actually, there's some loops as well, or some sort of it that will just, you can still hear the teacher, you can still hear what you need to do. But it what it does is it just blocks out that that general background noise and and it can just help to sort of dampen that which will mean that the overload isn't isn't quite as much for them.
00:30:26
Speaker
I think I think we know that a classroom is going to be busy. you know, these are these are things that will be the case. So it's about, OK, we know that that that is how it is. And with things we can do, such as space in the in the classroom and and displays that are less sort of busy around them.
00:30:52
Speaker
ah But thinking about real time out of that environment as well, because what we know is that if they're able to. have some of that time out, they're then able to gain a bit of that energy back, get a bit of that battery back, get a bit of those, that, that coping sort of skills that that that they have to be able to step back into that and then cope for the next hour or two or 10 minutes or ah whatever. you know whatever And I've seen that work through sort of movement breaks.
00:31:25
Speaker
And I know I know teachers as as I go into schools will say, well, what but we haven't got any adults to do that. How are we supposed to facilitate that for the so and so? And that can be done literally just outside the the classroom door in the corridor.
00:31:41
Speaker
I've seen sort of pictures of ah sort of activities that can be done up and down the corridor. I've suggested their own little activities on their desk, sort of on ah on a bit of a sticky laminated sheet.
00:31:55
Speaker
that they can just stand behind their desk and do. Star jumps, wall pushes, chair pushes, things like that, that that will help them to to get that sensory feedback in the right way, which will then in turn sort of calm the nervous system because without that, they're gonna be on that high level of alert.
00:32:18
Speaker
ah Yeah. So yeah, it's it's looking right, what is this individual sensory profile? Let's audit it, let's look at it, let's deeper dive into it.
00:32:31
Speaker
And then what can we change generally? But then what specifically for that individual do they need stepping outside different desks and so on? yeah To mean that, again, that that's a better environment for them.
00:32:47
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. And I think, as you said, and you know, we know that lots of autistic people have and different sensory profiles.
00:32:57
Speaker
And I think ah one of the most important bits you said there was that we've got a look at that classroom with their eyes and we've got to look at it, not from from our point of view. I mean, you know, as teachers, we're wonderful at putting stuff up on the wall and putting examples of good work and then sentence starters and numerous scenes and all of that.
00:33:16
Speaker
And we cover it with so much yeah information. ah actually, if we know that that child has a certain sensory profile, we need to go in and look at it through their eyes. It doesn't affect us. It doesn't mean it's not happening. Yeah. And it's, it really is looking at all levels sort of sitting down in their chair, getting down onto the floor and looking up, you know, all those different levels, which, which get you as much as you can. and and I suppose with things like displays, and of course, it's
00:33:48
Speaker
you know, what we want is the things there for the other children as well. And, you know, we have to be mindful of everyone in the classroom. But even if it's sort of an area that's quite blank for them, just sort of ah in in their space.
00:34:01
Speaker
And I've also seen some work with sort of divider things around their desks, which means that that immediate area for them is blank, it's maybe got their visual timetable or it's got a couple of other prompts or or nothing at all and it keeps it clear calm within ah busy of course a a busy classroom environment but but yeah it's looking through their eyes yeah and asking them
00:34:33
Speaker
Yes, exactly. And I think very often as adults, we don't do that, do we? We assume we know that actually we need to get better at asking. Yeah, that's right. Because for many, you know, often a PDA i will will be able to very clearly, you know, everybody like ah explain what it is that they would like and what they don't like. Yeah.
00:34:55
Speaker
And of course, you know, within reason, we try and do what we can and um work together to to get the environment right. Mm-hmm. Okay. That's great.
00:35:06
Speaker
Okay. We're coming on to our last question for this half of the podcast.
Engaging PDA Children in Learning
00:35:11
Speaker
So, If a PDA child is resistant to engage in learning, we hear lots from teachers that contact us at the PDA society that, you know, just can't get them to engage. there's that It's an outright no from the minute they walk in the classroom, you know, yeah and how can I get them to engage ah in learning activities in the classroom? so have you got any suggestions on how that we can help those learners be able to, I suppose it's be able to engage, isn't it?
00:35:37
Speaker
And want to engage. Yeah, it it is. and And that will, that will again change sort of does tends to do that and and goes up and down. But for a time when you're finding that the PDA is is really struggling to engage, I think you've got to look at why as much as you can.
00:35:57
Speaker
Are there demands that are happening before they get to you that are that are causing issues? ah Do we need to look at the rest of the day to enable them to be able to sort of put all there their energy into this this area of learning?
00:36:15
Speaker
But once you've sort of done that and you and you've sort looked at other things, one of the key areas is interest-led. So if you're really struggling to engage PDA, ah it's looking at, okay, we may be doing story writing in English.
00:36:34
Speaker
and And I'm thinking of of my PDA where where she would put a pig into everything when she was a primary. So I probably even interested beginning of secondary actually. And you know, it didn't matter what it was, it was poetry or even maths, because we turned the little big digits into pigs. and But, so you know, and and she would put her interest into the story.
00:36:57
Speaker
So engaging them in their interest is really key. Of course, having that trusted relationship that that we've talked about previously and and having that as that real basis. but But look at those chosen topics.
00:37:12
Speaker
um Tailor the learning to them. If the learning objective is is sort of quite open, then it's it's being imaginative as to how we can fit their interests their their ability at that particular point ah should be able to to do that that task or engage in that in that learning incidental learning is key so it might be that you feel that the PDA is
00:37:42
Speaker
is not able to access the classroom as as much, but actually that incidental learning that's happening as you're maybe outside and in the playground, as you're walking the corridors if they needed that, if you're doing that Lego, you can put some math into it, you can talk about stories with the Lego characters, you know, you you can you can bring that learning into where they are.
00:38:05
Speaker
um And I think that's really key is that you you're needing to to get to them where they are at that point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, you know, if if you're if the child isn't engaging at all, isn't it? You've you've got to find the what's in it for them bit.
00:38:21
Speaker
That's right. By starting off with their special interest, as you say, and then broadening it out slope but ah slowly. It's got to be at the child's pace, isn't it? It does. It does have to. And and it's...
00:38:33
Speaker
As a teacher, you know, it's, well, but we've got to get through this and this is the curriculum and they must. and And of course, there's all those pressures and and we understand that. But it's actually, you're going to get better engagement in the long term. If you pull back, you take it slowly, you build that trust, you look at incidental learning, the the learning together.
00:38:59
Speaker
So actually doing something side by side with a PDA is key because but they are more willing often to engage then. It's more collaborative. It's together.
00:39:11
Speaker
It takes the demand out of it a bit because you're sharing the learning. yeah And so... their own little projects on on things that they that they love, you could get so much sort of curriculum into those those projects, sir ah you know, as as much as you can. And I think if you do start to sort of build it, go slowly, and then gradually you'll see And it might take a while, you know, for some, it will be days, for some, it will be weeks, for some, it will be months and more.
00:39:46
Speaker
But that is still important. That time there is important. ah Because what you will see in in the future is that engagement.
00:39:57
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. When they're ready, um when they can. Yeah, and, and you know that that they you know, that engagement happens, doesn't it, when they're ready and when they're interested yeah and they can see what the end game is and why did they need to engage. It's that why, isn't it? It's the why, yeah.
00:40:13
Speaker
What's the point of this? What am I getting from it? Why do I need to do this? I mean, it's, you know, many a teacher listening, it it will be the the thing that you hear a lot. Why do I need to do that?
00:40:25
Speaker
I don't need to do that. What's the point of that? It's boring. You know, I've done this before, you know, all those sort of classic phrases that that we hear.
00:40:37
Speaker
It's Yeah, there needs to be a reason. And the fact that it's on the national curriculum isn't going to cut it. They're and not interested. No, exactly.
00:40:47
Speaker
i mean, but you know, I think. Thank you so much, Kelly. You really offered some great insights today. And hopefully, but you know, for those parents who've got children who are really, really struggling, maybe hopefully the parents will understand a little bit more of the why.
00:41:01
Speaker
yeah Hopefully any teachers listening will be able to you know to pull up on some of the tips that you've given as to how to engage with learning, but also recognise all of those difficulties that the child has in school and why they have those.
00:41:16
Speaker
Yeah. And difficulty. So that's, it's been brilliant. Thank you so much. Thank you. So all that's little left for me to say is thanks again, and Kelly, for joining us today. And to thank you to all our listeners for joining us on the PDA Society's podcast.
00:41:30
Speaker
We hope you enjoyed this episode. If you found it helpful, don't forget to subscribe and share. And for more information, resources i and support, visit the PDA Society's website at www.pdasociety.org.uk.
00:41:46
Speaker
So thank you again, Kelly and to all our listeners. And I look forward to seeing you next time.
00:41:55
Speaker
So if you want to hear more from today's special guest then there is a longer version of this podcast available over on our training hub. Sponsors of our training hub make it possible for us to create and put out this podcast for everyone for free.
00:42:08
Speaker
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