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Ep. 4: PDA and Working for the Police
637 Plays23 days ago
In this episode, our host, Rachel, speaks with Matt, a PDA adult working for the police, about navigating life and work through the lens of Pathological Demand Avoidance. From recognising his PDA traits later in life to finding strategies that make a demanding job sustainable, Matt shares what it’s really like balancing public service with a neurodivergent profile.
With honesty, humour and insight, Matt reflects on the challenges of masking, managing authority, and meeting the expectations of both himself and others. He talks about the importance of self-awareness, the moments of burnout, and the adjustments that have helped him thrive within – and sometimes in spite of – the structure of policing. This episode offers a rare glimpse into PDA in the workplace and the everyday realities of working in high-pressure environments.
Whether you’re PDA yourself, love someone who is, or work in a setting with strict rules and routines, this conversation will leave you with a deeper understanding of how flexibility, empathy and self-acceptance can make all the difference.
Deep Diver Subscriber Episodes - For those who’d like to go further, a exclusive “Deep Diver” subscriber episodes are available through our Training Hub. You can access them here: https://training.pdasociety.org.uk/pda-podcasts/
Disclaimer
The views and opinions expressed by guest speakers in this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of the PDA Society. While we aim to provide balanced and inclusive discussions, individual experiences and perspectives may vary. The PDA Society is committed to using language and terminology that reflects the preferences of PDA/autistic people, but sometimes our guests may use language and terminology which differs. Appearance on our podcast is not an endorsement of an individual, and not all of our guests will align with our position on the issues discussed.
Further sources of support and information
- PDA Society Training Hub: https://training.pdasociety.org.uk/pda-podcasts/
- PDA Society Website: https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/
- PDA Society Training: https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/support-and-training/training/
- PDA Society Support Service: https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/support-and-training/support/
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Transcript
Introduction to PDA Society Podcast
00:00:10
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the PDA Society's podcast. We're here to chat about all things PDA to help you understand what people with this profile of autism are experiencing and how you can help.
00:00:21
Speaker
We'll be sharing research, professional expertise and the insights of people with lived experience to help you understand PDA and have more tools to make life easier. So, whether you're a PDA yourself, a family member, friend or professional trying to make a difference, welcome from everybody at the PDA Society.
00:00:42
Speaker
We hope you'll find this useful.
00:00:46
Speaker
Welcome to the PDA Society podcast, where we share lived experiences and practical insights to help families, professionals and PDAs themselves feel supported and understood.
Meet the Host and Guest
00:00:58
Speaker
My name is Rachel and I'm your host for today's episode. Today, I'm going to be talking to Matt Sellers, a PDA-er who works for the police, and we'll be discussing how his autism and PDA helps him in his work, what adjustments he makes to his work and life, and the path that has led him to his current role.
00:01:16
Speaker
So welcome, Matt. Would you like to say a few words about yourself?
Matt's Role in Policing
00:01:20
Speaker
yeah good Good morning. Hi, Rachel. um Yes, so I currently work in policing as an assurance and standards lead.
00:01:28
Speaker
And probably people are thinking, what does that mean? um So I can talk a little bit more about that later. need um I joined ah the police back in February. So I'm a police staff member, and that's important. I'm not not a police officer.
00:01:43
Speaker
the It would be a big shock for people to know there's obviously lots of people who are police staff who make make ah policing work. um I started there as a ah a project management office manager.
00:02:00
Speaker
And again, we may talk a little bit about later what that does, but that's effectively working in projects and programs. um And then I got promoted in to be the assurance lead. um I ended up in the role I'm doing at the moment, which is very different to the role that I'd done sort of in my career up to now, which has been too long.
00:02:21
Speaker
It makes me feel old. um ah Where I was um a program manager and director. So. leading large change programs, mainly around the IT space, a lot in in in in in government. But actually I took a concert about six months ago that my neurodiversity profile would suit project management office and and and and um assurance work a lot better so i took that active decision about six months ago applied for jobs like that and the police one was one of the ones i applied for and was lucky to get it um and yeah and it's it's it's it's it's been it's been great
00:03:03
Speaker
Oh, that's fabulous.
Daily Responsibilities and Efficiency in Policing
00:03:04
Speaker
That's brilliant. too It's great, isn't it, when you find a job that you but really connects well with you. So maybe, you know, could you tell us a little bit more about your role then for the police and what maybe a typical day looks like for you?
00:03:16
Speaker
Yeah, it's a typical day. That'll be an interesting one. um So, yeah, so what... glad he held us an assurance and standards lead deep do. So i work in um a department that works nationally, um effectively running projects and programs that are meant to make um policing better, efficient, more with less.
00:03:39
Speaker
um Obviously, there's... Quite rightly, significant focus on how... I'm not officially a civil servant for the purpose of this. you know I am a civil servant. i work i work you know I'm a government employee, okay but I work for the police. There's a slight difference, but probably not relevant to that.
00:03:56
Speaker
There's obviously quite rightly a focus on how government, which is public money, is spent. We have to spend it effectively. um So what this department I'm working in is doing is implementing fairly large scale changes across, you know, policing, which is a massive, you know, I won't talk about the particular police force I work for, but any of them are quite large. Yeah. um Making things work better, more efficiently.
00:04:24
Speaker
um But in order to make things work better, more efficiently, you have to spend money on the projects and programs and it needs to be um carefully spent.
00:04:36
Speaker
There obviously have been, know, you know, challenges ah over the years of of of government, big government change projects not working as well as everybody would like.
00:04:48
Speaker
um would point out I've worked both in private the sector and the public sector and and there is, you know, neither is better or worse, okay? So it's not government gets a lot of this wrong. However, sort of get to the point, um my role as Assurance and Standards Lead is to help the projects and programs make sure they are set up for success. So making sure we're following a standard framework. You start off with project, you write a business case um to make sure that the thing you're trying to fix has a proper return on investment,
00:05:23
Speaker
Are we going to spend the right amount of money? i Is the solution that we're going to implement going to be the right one? Again, is that value for money? Are all the people it's going to impact happy with it? Has all the decision making been done correctly?
00:05:38
Speaker
Which sounds like a horrendous amount of admin and work, but yeah to do that than to spend a load of money and suddenly realize that the thing you're going to change isn't, you're not getting right.
00:05:50
Speaker
um and perhaps to go back to where we started in the intro the reason why it perhaps suits my profile a little bit better is it's you know it's a lot of analysis looking at paperwork working with people looking at the structure etc etc which plays very well into into my neurodiversity yeah and also but You know, I'm supporting the project and programme managers, and that is it which I used to do.
00:06:18
Speaker
That is a really hard job because you're out dealing with, you know, the people to get that done. And what I'm trying to do is make sure they're not having to worry about I mean, they do have to worry about which piece of paper to fill in, but trying to make that as easy as possible.
00:06:33
Speaker
yeah And it's really important that I'm not going, ah I can do, you know, I know better than you. but Because that's not what the job's all about.
00:06:43
Speaker
um It's about helping them navigate that framework, that governance, that process, just to make sure all the the right things are at the right time. And we spend um public money effectively. Yeah.
00:06:58
Speaker
Further spend public money effectively, if that makes it. We spend public money effectively to get as efficient and effective as we can. I'm with you. Yeah, yeah. So it's quite complex then. There's lots, lots sounds like there's going to be lots of elements to your job that, you know, you've you've got that, you know, sort of, and I suppose, the design the project, the liaising with all the different parts of that all those moving cogs in that wheel that you've got, you know, we've got to try and make work together, haven't you?
00:07:23
Speaker
It is. And... you know, that is very much what should the project and program managers have to do. yeah yeah ah But yes, that the everything is complicated, right? You know, you're potentially dealing with a lot of people, lot of systems.
00:07:38
Speaker
Policing, again, nobody's going to go, well, that's particularly insightful. Policing is a complicated thing, right? Yeah, yeah. And it's about protecting the the public and, you know,
00:07:55
Speaker
It's funny because I really love working in the public sector because it's doing something real. yeah yeah You know, there's a real, there's real people at the end of this and we all, we're very, very good at recognising that's what we do.
00:08:11
Speaker
I don't wish to, you know, critical of when I've worked in other places, but, um I tried to pick up my time to say that. Perhaps some of the other jobs, it wasn't a direct link to that business.
00:08:25
Speaker
that helping the public yeah yeah he's very rewarding in that but we are remembering that you know when things don't work people's safety is at risk and when people it does work actually we're creating a real you know we're protecting people that's what it's all about yeah um so that sort of um there's something real at the end of this is is is is is really important and and is very motivational as well I bet it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's great.
Neurodiversity and Structured Work Environments
00:08:56
Speaker
So hi how do you find them working within ah this sort of um such a structured and sort of hierarchical organisation as a PDA autistic person? So that's an interesting question because...
00:09:09
Speaker
It's hierarchical is is ah is an interesting phrase. Yes, there is a hierarchy. Yes, people have defined roles and responsibilities, but certainly in the area I am in, it's very much not command and control.
00:09:27
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Nobody ever comes in and says, we're going to do this because I'm that great or whatever. And I've said, yeah, doesn't doesn't work that way, which is obviously really, really good. Yes. Yeah. um You know, I don't.
00:09:44
Speaker
Again, reflecting on places where I've been where it has been a little bit like that. And actually, ironically, that's not been in policing. That's been more in the private sector. But that's another story. um It doesn't work anyway, because, you know, if...
00:09:59
Speaker
Leadership is about um getting people to do the right thing because they want to. Yeah. And that's about the best definition of of of of leadership I've ever come across. I didn't. That obviously wasn't my creation.
00:10:13
Speaker
You know, just telling people what to do doesn't work. Yeah. it And that kind of goes almost to the to the to the core of what we do from the the assurance side is we're setting up a we want to change something.
00:10:26
Speaker
The reason why we want to change it is because something's not working as well as it could or we can make it better. Yeah. Selling that vision and and that let's all do it. And everybody gets on board and says, OK, we all want to do that thing. So nobody's saying just because I am a particular rank.
00:10:43
Speaker
um yeah and That's front end policing. We don't have ranks in... in Although, obviously, we yeah deal with a lot of of of of of ah police officers. um But it is still pretty structured, which is good, because it has to be.
00:11:01
Speaker
um Everybody... This is dangerous because I'm not a football fan, so I'm going to try use a football analogy. I'd probably go crashingly wrong. um You know, everybody has to know what positions they're playing on the pitch. Yeah, yeah.
00:11:17
Speaker
it It doesn't mean that everybody's rigidly only staying in their positions and never moving out of it. Occasionally all have to sort of, you know, have an issue comes up, we'll have to re-put ourselves in different things.
00:11:31
Speaker
But we have to snap back to the right positions, When needed. yeah Well, because if you don't, otherwise it just gets too too too too chaotic. So just to try and answer that question a bit more succinctly, it is structured.
00:11:46
Speaker
Everybody has pretty well-cleared defined roles and responsibilities. There is a hierarchy, but it's not a hierarchy where sort of the top and period of tech yeah dictating what we do. It self-manages, for want of a better word. yeah And I can imagine then that that structure and sort of helps that framework for with maybe with with your neurodivergence in that, you know, you've got the structure there, so you know what parameters you're working within, but you've also got your own autonomy sort of being in control of your bit, your role within that. Is that right?
00:12:23
Speaker
100%. And that is so, yes. I know within reason, although it's a long list of things I need to sort out.
00:12:36
Speaker
Yeah. And that even within my assurance team, It's split between day-to-day operational of I've got a certain number of projects and programs I'm assigned to.
00:12:50
Speaker
so I'm dealing with them all the time saying, right, you're at this stage in your project lifecycle. You need to write a business case. Well, they're coming to me going, right, we're in this schedule. What do we do next? sorry that sounds a bit wrong because it's not like that you haven't got a clue. Yeah.
00:13:03
Speaker
Yeah, what mean. Yeah, there can be some nuances to the type of business case. If anybody's ever struggling to sleep, go to there something called the Blue Book, which is the government cabinet office business case.
00:13:17
Speaker
How we business cases. It's about 100 pages long. it will It'll get you to sleep at night. um But you need it, right? Because we're spending a lot of money. So there's a day-to-day piece of working with them to do that.
00:13:31
Speaker
but Let's call it operational, but it's operational program delivery. And then I've got the things where we're actually trying to make the assurance and and and governance process better.
00:13:43
Speaker
So I've got improvements we're trying to make. But... I do broadly know 90% of everything I've got to do, right? yeah So there are surprises coming in and there are times when we have to move quite quickly and the world changes. That's that's fine.
00:13:59
Speaker
But yes, broadly, I have a certain amount. I have a pretty good idea of what it is I need to do, when I need to get it done by and pretty good autonomy.
00:14:11
Speaker
to to to decide the reason how, when I'm going to do that. And it's very much me going to my boss going, look, I think we should do these things this order. And 99 times out of 100, he's going, yeah, that sounds right. Let's just we'll build a plan to get on with it.
00:14:24
Speaker
Yeah. And that's great, isn't it? When you've got that autonomy over, that you know, certain that those elements of your job, that it just makes everything much easier, doesn't it? So... What kind of reasonable adjustments then or supports that have been put in place for you, maybe through the application process or the interview process and in your day-to-day work, have you found that you've you know needed those adjustments in place for yourself?
00:14:50
Speaker
Yeah, so... ah when I applied for the role there was the in the job description there was the disability confidence stamp which is really but good there was all the words and i forget exactly what the words were around we very much welcome people for with you know range of of of disabilities please apply which is great just to see that welcoming you know um a piece to that and When I set you start off with a a written, um you do send your CV in, but in a way, not that CVs aren't important, but the recruitment process tries to look a bit deeper than that.
00:15:34
Speaker
Yeah, but you going I think is is is is good. You write a um personal statement of of why you you you you want the role. I put right at the top of it, i you know i am neurodiverse.
00:15:49
Speaker
This is also the things it brings to you know our analysts and that type of thing. um They then said, do you want any reasonable adjustments for the interview? And I said, yes. um And um they they were pretty. like And that was really only um just understanding what the format of the interview and what, you know, what, what, not what I, not the specific questions I would get asked, but this will be a competency-based interview. Here are the competencies we we want to test.
00:16:21
Speaker
You will get a question that's from one of those competencies. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is, which is, which which which is great. But
00:16:31
Speaker
there is a theme in this and, I think a lot of ah lot of the good stuff that the police do to support neurodiverse people, potentially people with other disabilities, actually is just good practice anyway.
00:16:47
Speaker
Yeah, yeah i think it should be across the board, shouldn't it? Yeah. and and having a ah And this theme has come up quite a lot ever since I got diagnosed. um places that i've you know Workplaces I've really enjoyed working at have just been good places to work.
00:17:07
Speaker
o yeah um And the ones I haven't perhaps haven't been good good places to to to to work. Having a very clear job description for the role that is based on a a very standard set of competencies, which the the police have um and going, right, we want those ones. We want you to be, you know, medium level advanced at that particular competency and being clear about that in advance.
00:17:33
Speaker
um And then having a structured interview where they ask you specific questions around that is, is yeah, just just just good practice. yeah So those those were the adjustments, Wade, in the interview.
00:17:46
Speaker
Great. Incredibly
00:17:50
Speaker
sensible and personable people who are interviewing me ah explained at the beginning of the interview, right, we are going to do this, we are going to ask you this, whatever. But again, they do that for everybody.
00:18:02
Speaker
going through the interview um and then just waiting to to um uh yeah and then just waiting to to to hear that i've been successful what they were good is they were very very quick in coming back to say you've been oh that's good yeah yeah you haven't got that long wait time which yeah nobody likes at all it's no good for anyone is it no no and God, yeah, i can remember some, some, well you don't hear for three months. Yeah. If at all, to be honest.
00:18:32
Speaker
Yeah, and that I know. And if you've taken the time to apply and go through the whole process, the least people can do is get back to you quickly, isn't it? I know it's, it can't, it's very frustrating. And that just sends those anxiety levels sky high, doesn't it?
00:18:45
Speaker
Oh, ah yeah. And anxiety, isn't it? glad you mentioned anxiety. I might come, come, come back to that. Okay. So once I'd, joined you do have you know any uh member of of of the police has to go through vetting part of it um so we go through vetting that takes a a a while um that can be a little bit of a scary process because I'm not breaking any great secrets here, is a um meant to be an intrusive process, because yeah if you think about the purpose of vetting, you know, from from from from people who might not be suitable, it has to be.
00:19:29
Speaker
But that, you know, that like that that's fine. Then. um Oh, sorry. One thing I would mention um And this isn't about them making adjustments. This something I do.
00:19:42
Speaker
I use the STAR model for for for for interviews I've always done. So might talk about that. So STAR model is situation, task, action, result.
00:19:53
Speaker
Right, yeah. And it's ah a model that a lot of people use for for for for for interviewing people, but it's also a brilliant model to prepare for an interview. Okay, yeah.
00:20:06
Speaker
What you do is you look at the the the the competencies and you think, OK, what's an example of doing well on that particular in a previous job, doing well on that particular competition?
00:20:19
Speaker
Think about what was the situation I was in What was the task I was doing? What did I do? What's the action I took but to address a problem or make something better? And what was the result?
00:20:30
Speaker
Right. Yeah. And i have a great big spreadsheet and about 20 of these on here. and and And I've got sort of a standard set. And then I look at the company go, well, that one actually works really well for that one. And I walk into the interview with it. I walk into the interview with two big sheets of A3.
00:20:48
Speaker
so i was brilliant. Yeah. Yeah. um And it's never been a problem. It's always been beneficial. ah so i I would recommend it, well, anyone, but also um potentially if you are neurodiverse, you are very anxious about interviews, I would recommend that. It's
Promoting Autism Awareness at Work
00:21:07
Speaker
a nice structure to help you form your your your your answers to to to to questions. And it's simple, you know.
00:21:14
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. Helpful. that sounds great, yeah. um So once I was on board, able it. I think for almost the first conversation I had with my original line manager when I was the project management office manager um was what do you need from a reasonable adjustments point of view?
00:21:39
Speaker
Yeah. ah great And I, I, I, I talked through that and I just said, look, in my situation, it's probably not a vast amount.
00:21:52
Speaker
The things that make me, um that drain me a little bit you know i suffer from high amounts of anxiety by um you know so lots of back-to-back meetings are not going to be good for me yeah i mean there is a question are they good for anybody but exactly
00:22:12
Speaker
um you know so so you know very much uh but what what what do you need um They also do something here which again is nothing to do with neurodiversity called how I like to be managed, okay which is a it it's a word template that you just put together and everybody does it.
00:22:32
Speaker
um And I won't read the whole thing. i mean, i I deliberately got it here because I thought it might be just good just to mention it. It seems like so in one word, the thing I most need from people is, and I put down clarity. Mm hmm.
00:22:49
Speaker
Many things motivate me, but my personal top three are, and I put solving problems, building structured systems, that deliver projects and programs to achieve the business benefit, having clear objectives and clarity for my boss for what they want.
00:23:01
Speaker
um And it talks about what might trigger you. And I said, being micromanaged. I said, people changing their minds for no reason. and I said, not big fan of office politics.
00:23:15
Speaker
um So it was really good. I said I won't read that, I'll get a bit dull. um Really good that they were thinking about how do you really engineer an effective working relationship between the person and their line manager.
00:23:36
Speaker
We also published that. So I would not be working for my line manager like day to day when I was the PMO manager. I go into a project and I sit within that project and yeah that work better for them.
00:23:50
Speaker
they the The project manager also gets to see that. So they know how how how how we all work. um No, it's it's it's a really useful document. I use it with the people that work for me.
00:24:05
Speaker
are on your IDOverse, some are not, but I use it with everybody. It's just a good tool. And without sounding like a stuck record, it it does come back a little bit to good work practices are just good for. Yeah, they're good for everybody, aren't they?
00:24:23
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. um Because my my project and program manager also asked me, you know,
00:24:34
Speaker
I'm aware that you know you're neurodiverse. What works for you? So I get in the same conversation there, which is... And do you know people just asking is is is great? Yeah. That's kind of half the... You're half the battle, aren't you? Because you've got the awareness. Yeah.
00:24:49
Speaker
Yeah, you've got the awareness. If the awareness is there, that actually everybody is individual. So therefore, knowing how every individual would prefer to be managed or would prefer to work, surely that's going to help the workflow and those relationships and connections of working together.
00:25:08
Speaker
So as you say, it's useful for everybody. Very much. Yeah, brilliant. That sounds great. Very much. And the last thing I'll say, sorry, and I've given very, very long answer to this question.
00:25:21
Speaker
it good But the last thing that I've done for quite a few years, ever since I was diagnosed about six or seven years ago, when I keep saying this, it because I think I said two years ago, six or seven years ago. Anyway, that's how time works, isn't it?
00:25:38
Speaker
I have on my email signature, underneath all the boring stuff about who I am and my job and and and whatever, my department, I have an autism awareness signature.
00:25:51
Speaker
okay Yeah. And it, again, I won't read the whole thing. It's it got four lines on It just says, I am autistic. Autism is a neurological difference that the person pairs a person person to ability to communicate, affects brain function, um maybe hidden through person masking.
00:26:08
Speaker
ah And um I said, autism has a wide spectrum of symptoms behaviours. Please ask about my autism. If you have any questions, I will not be offended.
00:26:20
Speaker
Brilliant. And it's always prompted positive responses from from from from people um who have been messaging me going, you know, I'm autistic, I'm a PDA or whatever. That's great that you're putting it on there and it makes people aware and people have conversations.
00:26:46
Speaker
So, again, I'm not here to give advice, but I think it's it i think it's it's something I would recommend to people who's working in type of environment where people are sending around emails to maybe put on the bottom of their their their um their email Yeah, that's ah that's such a great idea. because you say because you you know In many work environments these days, we it a lot of it is via email rather than those face to face conversations. And actually, sometimes it's better, you know, um and also just putting it out there, isn't it? It's putting that message out there where some sort neurodivergent people might be that have that reluctancy, but actually,
00:27:26
Speaker
you know, once you but once you put it out there and hat and' that you're opening up those conversations for everybody to have and then that just helps that working environment then, doesn't it? So that's a great idea.
00:27:39
Speaker
It does, definitely, yeah, 100%. Yeah. Yeah. yeah Brilliant. OK, so there's been lots of positive aspects that it sounds like from from you within in that while you've been working in this job.
00:27:49
Speaker
Have there been any particular aspects the job that you found especially challenging because of your PDA profile? And you've mentioned a few ways of how you've learned to manage and some of those. But so is there anything else you want to add to that?
00:28:04
Speaker
Not really. I have to say this is is the best place I've ever worked. um you know, i mean, all the normal things,
00:28:17
Speaker
and but it doesn't really happen here. um ah least you get the odd person, and this is just life, isn't it? um So I'll give you an example, and we all work on Teams or Zoom or whatever, whatever whatever the the version people have. you Obviously, there is an ability on there um just to phone someone out of the blue.
00:28:37
Speaker
Yes, yeah. I, that, that That I really struggle to deal with. That's probably the biggest trigger. Yes.
00:28:48
Speaker
And I think that's probably... For any new rider versus PDA, I think that um just somebody just phoning you out of the blue is is is is the worst thing. I don't know. that Yeah, it it's it's that time. I think, you know, it puts you on the spot, doesn't it? And you've got a certain time and it's the noise is ringing and you're under pressure to answer. and it's luck But you're not prepared or you don't know.
00:29:12
Speaker
Also, it's that fear of the unknown because you don't know what that phone call is going to bring to you. You don't know what they're going to say Absolutely. So that magnifies that fear of the unknown that we know lots of PDAs really, really struggle with. So, yeah, I can imagine that. yeah Yes.
00:29:25
Speaker
um And it's an an immediate demand as well. like even Even just... and i I don't like using the phone full stop, actually.
00:29:37
Speaker
ah don't i don't know if this is common to other um autistic PDAs. um It's funny because there's this... um Sorry, this might be a slight philosophical um diversion, but anyway, you can stop me if you want.
00:29:51
Speaker
There's a... Well, where everybody... like You know, the the companies that want people... um we want you know We want to be able to talk to someone. We don't do anything online. I am the flip opposite. I do not want to if if If I'm going to go and book a restaurant...
00:30:05
Speaker
if i if if If I can't do it online, I'm not going, right? I don't want a phone call. ah I'm going mad at my my pension provider at the moment because you only seem to be able to do things by phoning them.
00:30:18
Speaker
I don't like it. heck So, yeah, i that's probably the only issue I have. Actually, interesting in in quite a few people who aren't PDAs or neurodiverse,
00:30:35
Speaker
um In their how they like to be managed, they've said we don't like to be phoned um out of the blue. and And the nature of how teams and all these others, you can just message people first, right? Yeah. so yeah But anyway, I'm probably I'm probably overblowing something that's not.
00:30:54
Speaker
No, but it's it's it's the if if anything is putting you out of your comfort zone while you're at work, that it's bound to just ever, so even if it's ever so slightly.
00:31:05
Speaker
get in the way of that productivity or that working relationship. it may you know If you've got one colleague that will message you first and say, can we have a chat this afternoon? Whereas another colleague will phone you straight without any warning.
00:31:20
Speaker
naturally, i think for anybody, you would have a different slightly different working relationship with with those two people. So, you know, even even little things like that, they are important because they do affect how we work. So, yeah, no, it's very interesting because I'm very much the same, actually. I don't like using the houston telephone.
00:31:40
Speaker
I'd much prefer people email me or message me rather than phone me. Yeah, yeah. And I'm... um It's not, I haven't come from a technical background, but I work with a lot of software developers and they talk about thing called Flow, which is kind into what they're doing and they're trying code it. And the work I do a little bit like that because he's very much into lots of documentation and spreadsheets and whatever. And if you're in the middle of that, all of a sudden a phone call and you get, you're out of it. It's like, oh.
00:32:12
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, go yeah. blow again So it's not necessarily just a PDA thing. um But yeah, ah but again, I need to emphasize,
00:32:25
Speaker
you know you've asked a question about what doesn't work here and I'm really, you know, struggled to actually- Yeah, yeah. it's it's just yeah It's something relatively small, but yeah, yeah. No, so that's that's great. You know, if it you know if it if this if there's most of the aspects of the job work really well for you which it sounds like they do then that then that's great you as you say you found that right job for you haven't you which is brilliant I have and it's a bit of a trite term but it is a little bit about finding your tribe yeah um definitely there might be other organizations that do similar things to what we do and I've worked in project and program management pretty much my whole career um so
00:33:08
Speaker
The things we are doing in my department are very similar to the things I've done my entire life. Yeah. But it's the behaviours of the people that make it work. That's what makes the difference, doesn't it? Yeah.
00:33:19
Speaker
Yeah. and Again, no no great insight there. um But yeah, that's exactly why it works. It works so well. Brilliant. OK. So we know then that PDAs often bring creativity, problem solving and strong tuition to their work. And it sounds like that's what you do.
PDA Profile and Problem Solving
00:33:39
Speaker
So what strengths do you think that your PDA profile has brought to your role? You've mentioned a few already. Yeah, and it it is it is very much that, the analytical... And I guess because...
00:33:56
Speaker
i got this so I think it's always important to talk about me, not talk about, you know, or PDAs in general. ah I do like a little bit to sort of, think withdraw the wrong word, but.
00:34:10
Speaker
look at a problem, go away in ah and and and and analyze the problem and try break it down. um I do a lot of of of of of that, like breaking it down onto a spreadsheet, working out a timeline for something, right? Where do you want to get to?
00:34:27
Speaker
ah And definitely, I think that is a a a strength. I mean, it's a strength in in project and program management. anyway yes that's doing forever breaking everything down into into a journey and so you know and and also asking questions like what is it you're actually trying to achieve yeah and okay how are you gonna know when you've achieved
00:35:01
Speaker
the thing that you're setting out to achieve how you quantifying that thing are you saving money yeah are you trying to make a process more effective how are you actually going to measure that is it money you're going to save sometimes you can't sometimes it's just things are going to be better um i mean you can take that to the nth degree and actually start saying well if I can save certain amount of time on a process. Therefore, if I estimate what that process takes, I'm also, you know, making people, I'm improving morale. Therefore we do less start turnover. So you, you,
00:35:41
Speaker
And what I'm saying, the reason why I'm laughing is I have to stop myself sometimes because you can sort of almost analyse to the nth degree. And then I've done an enough. I've done enough.
00:35:52
Speaker
bob So that and that of of ah I've basically sort of expanded analysis skills from the nth degree, even as I'm talking. um Interestingly enough, and I don't know how unique this is,
00:36:11
Speaker
um within neurodiversity, I actually don't... Sudden change that is real events, right? So you if if, for instance, we were doing something and there was a an incident, for instance, that means...
00:36:33
Speaker
So sometimes quite quite understandably, the people we're dealing with um ah also have frontline roles. That may fall because of the nature that there is an incident. So all of a sudden, the the you know we have to stop making the organisation better. We have to react to what is going on. Yes, OK.
00:36:52
Speaker
I think everybody would go, yes, of course you do. So when real world events happen and we have to change what we're doing, That type of change doesn't bother me for some reason. I don't know why. okay yeah it it Ironically, and this is where sometimes you almost have to talk to the chimp in your head. And I don't know if any people know about the paradox. And so I find that quite useful.
00:37:19
Speaker
the The chimp gets doesn't mind that sort of change. The chimp gets very upset that maybe when it thinks that it's change driven by perhaps people and it's unnecessary. so it's very weird. It's very strange.
00:37:32
Speaker
um So we need have what I call a real world problem. Often I'm just totally calm and then just go out how to fix this problem and et cetera, et cetera.
00:37:43
Speaker
So I don't actually know if that's a, if that's a autistic PDA profile or that's just means I'm just a bit of a weird one. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. that It could be. It could be because you sit you're seeing the, you know, you can you can directly see that purpose. I'm not saying that you can't see a purpose in the other work that you do, in the long-term work, but that more that that that immediate demands that there's a problem that really needs solving and you're throwing yourself into it.
00:38:12
Speaker
um So it' out it sounds like that's, you know, that you're very easily being able to adapt in that situation, which is great, which is it which is a fabulous skill to have, isn't it? So, I mean, and that sort of leads me on a little bit to our my next question about navigating team environments and those moments of high demand. So I'm not sure if you might have answered this question sort of um already, but all elements of it.
00:38:39
Speaker
So it's about how you navigate those team environments and how you navigate those moments of demand, um like those sudden changes or and authority dynamics.
00:38:50
Speaker
m you know Do you generally cope with most of those very, very well or do you find them difficult or do you have strategies that help you cope? Yeah. So all of the above.
00:39:02
Speaker
And we have touched this. Yeah. yeah Again, it's a bit dangerous because i've got to keep saying everything's wonderful where I am. Obviously, you know, not everything's perfect and wonderful, but it is it is a better environment for that because people aren't.
00:39:17
Speaker
There's no there's very little poor. For want of a better phrase, sort of the political office dynamics. Yeah, I know what you mean. People just trying to to to.
00:39:30
Speaker
seek power or status or whatever. We just don't we just don't really get that that that where where but where I am. um Where I've had that in the past, that is, I've i've i've really struggled to deal with that. The only way really I've ever found to deal with that properly is to push things um more into a written ah per approach you know getting people to write stuff down so I can understand what's what's right yeah and unasked questions back of well can you be really clear about what you mean what is it you actually want from from yeah getting that clarification absolutely and what that sometimes can drive out is and again I'm talking previously not not here um often the people don't know yeah
00:40:26
Speaker
yeah Yeah, and then that's difficult then because you've got ambiguity in you. Well, and ah I'm glad you mentioned ambiguity. That's that's a really important point. you know um There's a lot of...
00:40:42
Speaker
in the in the in in in in in In the hundreds and thousands and and probably millions of various podcasts and whatever advice there are around around you know the workplace, there's so much about, well, ambiguity is just a fact of life and you just have to be able to deal. And you see in job adverts, you know being able to deal with ambiguity.
00:41:00
Speaker
They are not wrong. but ambiguity within a team shouldn't really exist because within our confines, we should be able to drive out ambiguity between you know somewhat you know, between a ah manager and the person they're managing shouldn't really exist in my, you know, in my, there's no reason for that ambiguity to exist.
00:41:26
Speaker
um So driving out, you know you know, when we then go out into the real world, yes, there's ambiguity and we have to have, and ah but being really clear what we're certain about and where the area of ambiguity is. So in a way it's,
00:41:39
Speaker
again it's back to that drape breaking things down into systems and structures you go we know that's for sure and then we know that bit is a range we think it's gonna be there and there um so yeah just always trying to break things down always challenging people when they're asking for something and and you do it very polite way go look obviously it's really important um yeah i'm not trying to be awkward but i wanna you know it's says on i think this is a a fairly standard um neurodiverse um feature feature of people the you know i mean yeah we want to get it right yeah yeah we don't want
00:42:21
Speaker
to be we don't you know it's difficult enough when there is a demand oh you want to understand what that demand is you want to deliver to that demand as best you can and get it right then being told after the event that what you've delivered isn't when it's been hard for you to deliver is wrong because you weren't given the clear instructions in the first place yeah is horrible right think it's horrible for anyone but i do think it's it's probably worse for for for for um autistic PDAs as well, because there's probably more of a premium in getting that done.
00:43:00
Speaker
yeah. yeah and any ro is easier So I think, probably try and come back and answer your question a bit more succinctly. i think making sure you're clear about what expectations are of you, I think even when it's a very...
00:43:17
Speaker
what you might call high pressured, fast moving environment, you are still better. and ah There's ah also another book, which i've I've never properly read, but thinking fast and slow. Okay.
00:43:30
Speaker
it's It's quite a good book. And that talks about, there are certain times when, yeah you've just got to get on with it. And certain times when you can spend, spend longer. I think even the times when you've just got get on with it,
00:43:42
Speaker
Potentially asking a few questions quickly to understand everybody's running in the right direction. yeah Probably better than just running off and doing stuff when, you know, yeah yeah you fly off and and and and you're not getting things right.
00:43:56
Speaker
but but But that's what I tend to do. Yeah, yeah. Now, that makes total sense. You know, if you you if a demand is put upon you, you get you know, you're asked a task to be done, but that task isn't clear and it's got fuzzy edges, then that's not going to help at all, is it? You need that clarity to start ah start with, and that will really help with it with with the the processes then that you've got to go through, which is great.
00:44:18
Speaker
Okay, so can we go back a few years now? We're going to take you back to school years. i So what... What was your experience of education like? And do you think there were signs of your PDA profile back then?
Early Signs and Diagnosis of PDA
00:44:35
Speaker
Because you mentioned earlier that you were later you were diagnosed later in life.
00:44:40
Speaker
Yeah, so...
00:44:43
Speaker
I probably die keep saying six or seven years, probably 10 years ago i was diagnosed. um So 57 in November. 47, obviously a lot of life before I was diagnosed.
00:44:58
Speaker
um Yeah, I'd say there were definitely signs. So... I struggled. i mean, my mum literally had to drag me kicking and screaming to to to to primary school.
00:45:11
Speaker
I just didn't want to go. yeah and I guess, yeah, that was just a massive demand avoidance change. Didn't want to do it. You know, um i was considered a primary school.
00:45:26
Speaker
I don't know if this has anything to do with with my profile um to be, slightly behind the curve in terms of reading yeah yeah i talking about about six or seven that sort of age um and then something happened because just probably around seven or eight i started writing and ended up writing a great big long just story that was pages and pages apparently i mean i've got it still in the loft somewhere yeah um about this guy got in a space rocket and went to the moon or whatever and and and
00:46:00
Speaker
teachers sort of had to then rewrite it because my writing my writing is and so was and is appalling. ah So something twigged and then sort of I then did pretty pretty well but I was probably always slightly a bit of a weird fish at school, wasn't great at making friends.
00:46:20
Speaker
um I ended up at the age of 13 going to a public boarding school.
00:46:30
Speaker
Right. Okay. Um, on something back then that was called the assisted places scheme, which was a government scheme, which, which was, was trying to, um, um, you know, level the playing field, I guess, one of a better word, you know, you know, make that type of education, um, available to, um, uh,
00:46:53
Speaker
people whose parents didn't have the money to send them to to to those schools. And i'm I'm very conscious there's a big debate around, you know, public, public, you know, paid for private. I mean, although they're called public schools, obviously they're not the private.
00:47:04
Speaker
Yeah. ah i There's a reason why they're called public schools, but not, not, not, not for now. um So I was incredibly lucky. Okay. I will just say that without, prompting I was incredibly lucky I was very well taught at school, you know, got lots of benefits. You know, i got to do lots of sport.
00:47:25
Speaker
oh I'm incredibly good at swimming water polo. um But yeah, struggled to probably interact with, with the other boys, made some fantastic ends, but I was there for five years. i probably struggled for the first three years.
00:47:46
Speaker
Right. Okay. And then again, sort of in the sixth form found, found um myself ah a little bit more, but I was always the one that was sort of listening to the Goon Show and Tony Hancock, which is slightly peculiar for, for, you know, this is sort of mid eighties you're talking about. so there was probably things going on there.
00:48:08
Speaker
um Very obsessed obsessive on certain things. Yeah. You know, so yes, I think there were, signs um yeah and once i got diagnosed i went oh okay that kind of falls falls yeah all the dots make sense then how did you cope how did you cope when you're in school then with sort of you know like like the rigid routines or the all the all the examinations and things like that we were you able to just hyper focus on those or were they real the the demands of all of that a real struggle for you
00:48:45
Speaker
No, probably no more than than than anyone else. Okay. Again, because there was routine. Yes, yeah. i yeah um You know, I knew what was coming up.
00:49:00
Speaker
um Again, being very lucky because it was that type of school. There was a lot, you know, they... they were very good at getting people through exams, et cetera, et cetera. and And, you know, I was very lucky. So I don't ah don't think there was anything like that other than the stress and strain that anybody might- Yeah, that the average child has. so Yeah, okay. which is Which is clearly a lot.
00:49:27
Speaker
Oh gosh, yes, yes, a massive amount. Yeah, yeah, okay. So how did your diagnosis come about then? What sort of made you, if you know as you say, you got diagnosed about 10 years ago. what What what um took you to that point? how did that How did that come about? And what difference has that understanding made for you personally and professionally when all those dots finally all joined up and everything made a bit more sense?
00:49:55
Speaker
So the... the the the my my My profile was probably because I didn't understand it, you know, lots of anxiety, exhausted all the time and that and interacting with people and, you know, we probably predominantly work was the most challenging thing.
00:50:22
Speaker
um
00:50:25
Speaker
sort of took a big impact on my mental health um so i ended up having a lot of um uh counseling and analysis and that type of thing till eventually i sat down and it's interesting because i was almost more towards the end of of of of counseling um and that type of support.
00:50:51
Speaker
And this um ah psychiatrist said, well, I think you're autistic. Right. but I went, oh, yeah, that kind of makes sense.
00:51:05
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. um So, yeah, that that's what led to that. Right. The thing is, ever since I've had the diagnosis, I've my mental health has been much higher.
00:51:20
Speaker
Brilliant. Well, because there's an understanding there Yeah. Yeah. And where that understanding comes, then you can, you know, you can give yourself that space. You can give yourself that preparation that actually, no, I'm not going to do that because I know it's going to be stressful for me, but I understand why it's going to be stressful for me.
00:51:40
Speaker
Or I need to do X, Y, Z in order to do that. But I know I can do that prep beforehand and that will help as well. Can't it? You know? Yeah. um And, and, and,
00:51:52
Speaker
they i love i love that the the the the spoons. Do you know about Bones and Yeah, the spoon theory, yeah. And that's brilliant for me because is...
00:52:04
Speaker
um There's a finite amount and literally, you know, assume you've got 20 spoons, you're fine for the 20, but soon as the last one's gone, you literally crash to the floor. yeah Yeah. oh And understanding that yourself and other people understanding that and going, right, I need to go. I've got no spoons left now. The social battery's gone. Yeah.
00:52:25
Speaker
just it just it just helps it really does yeah yeah oh that's brilliant that's great so do you think then you would have benefited if you'd had um known about your pda and autism earlier in life maybe with it from that that you you touched on and sort of the mental health input that you'd had are there other benefits that you would have found if you'd know do you think that you would have gained if you would have found out a little bit earlier about your autism or so Work asked me to do a presentation about six weeks ago to talk about my experience of recruitment, little bit almost like you know the discussion we've had, which is great. And somebody asked me when I did that, exactly that question.
00:53:12
Speaker
And it's something I've thought about a lot. And I a don't know is the honest answer. and And the reason why don't know Again, typical how my brain works, break it down. So say I'd been diagnosed the age of five, let's call it that, right?
00:53:31
Speaker
What would have happened? Would I have been sent to a different school? Yeah. Would have different things happen? Would um I wouldn't have got certain um opportunities?
00:53:47
Speaker
Yes, it was hard because... you know, there were certain ways i that that that worked that made the world ah difficult place. um So I don't i don't know if would the earlier diagnosis have helped.
00:54:03
Speaker
If there may be, maybe then perhaps if I got a diagnosis at the age of 18, for instance, at the beginning of my work career, so I did my school and work career. yeah Again, would that have changed things? Would I have not done certain things?
00:54:19
Speaker
um you know, not taking opportunities because thought, well i can't do that because I'm, you know, I'm um i'm neurodiverse. um all all i All I can say is I'm very happy where I've ended up.
00:54:37
Speaker
You know. Yes. Yeah. job Job I love and home life I love. um So who knows? you don't you don't just You just don't know because all you, you know, unless you've got a time machine,
00:54:49
Speaker
I do that thing like that, film sliding doors and go, right. what was that I had sliding doors in my head there. i was a phrase I was about to say, isn't it? You just don't know. And actually, those tough times do make you what you are, you know where help you get to where you are today.
00:55:05
Speaker
And the things that you've learned along that along the way.
Reflections and Gratitude
00:55:08
Speaker
But you're right. You just don't know, do you? don't You don't know. But, you know, it's all, you know, looking at here and now, you're in a great place. You're in a great, you know, as you said, your home life, your work life, you're happy with those. And that's all that we can ask out life, isn't it? That we're happy doing what we're what what we're doing, which is great.
00:55:25
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. So my last question then to finish off and our podcast today is what advice would you give to and other PDA or or autistic and people who are thinking about applying for a role um in the police i am or any other high demand um and environments? what What one piece of advice would you would you give to other PDAs?
00:55:50
Speaker
Well, think it's always dangerous to give advice. the um look every place is different um you've asked me to give one piece of advice can i give more than one piece you can give more than one yeah um i think be clear about what you want and i think think you know if if So I'm in project and program management. I'm in project and program management. It can be quite high stress, but there's probably places where it's less high stress or less demanding, et cetera, et cetera. So there's always different places you can get type of things you want.
00:56:34
Speaker
And it's always best, I think, when you're when you're in a work life. is to keep asking yourself the question why until you can't answer it anymore. So why do I, do I, do I, I don't, I haven't worked, I'm not working in the police because it's high stress. It's not problem.
00:56:50
Speaker
And again, sorry, high demand. i have to be, again, I want to be really clear, you know, the, the, the offices that are, you know, out doing the frontline policing, are people doing the you know, the high stress, high demand stuff it is challenging what we do, but, but, you know, I don't, I don't absolutely don't want to over, over, overdo that.
00:57:08
Speaker
But just keep asking yourself why, what it is you want. And then you'll find there's lots of, the more you distill down to sort of the the essence of what you want, you'll find there's more jobs you can do to get that. look for the Look for the things in the adverts about disability confidence and that type of thing oh that they're prepared to make.
00:57:33
Speaker
um reasonable adjustments, et cetera, et cetera. I think that's really important. um Definitely, I mentioned it before, you know the prep in terms of using the the star model, that's really, really worked for me because it gives you that sort of back row work and almost like a comfort blanket.
00:57:51
Speaker
um So, yeah, I i think almost put to, don't don't be afraid of what people might refer to as um high demand.
00:58:05
Speaker
Yeah. You know, i I think that's such a broad term that actually there's probably a lot within that that you can get. um So, yeah.
00:58:17
Speaker
So um I think look, probably look for the the words are letting you know they are they are very open to, to um you know, people with disabilities, be they neurodiversity or other disabilities.
00:58:34
Speaker
yeah It's again, i will just say the one last thing, that generally means they're just a good place to work. Yeah, yeah, yeah, inclusive of everybody. All the studies say that the the organisations, that don't care if the private sector or public sector, are much more effective and efficient where they've got a diverse range of people.
00:58:52
Speaker
but You know, cultural diversity, you know, disability diversity, all that type of s stuff. um So, yeah, that's probably, if you go to one, that's probably my one piece of advice.
00:59:05
Speaker
That's brilliant. Oh, that's amazing. Thanks so much, Matt. and You know, you've shared your experiences with us today, which we really do appreciate. But I also think it's going to be sort of inspiring and aspiring for many of our listeners listeners and also...
00:59:21
Speaker
for parents of PDA children at the moment to hear that actually, you know, this guy's, you know, with his PDA, but he's gone on and he's achieved great things and he's happy in doing what he's doing. um um And that's that that's brilliant. So thank you so much. We really do appreciate you coming on.
00:59:37
Speaker
No, it's very kind of you. Thank you. no so i've ah I've really enjoyed it. Thank you. Oh, good. Thank you. So if today's conversation has resonated with you, then please do remember that you're not alone and there is support out there for you.
00:59:49
Speaker
You can find more resources, guides and community support on the PDA Society website and hubs. And we'll link all of that in the show notes for you. So if you found this episode helpful, then please do share it with someone who might benefit. And don't forget to subscribe so that you don't miss any future conversations.
01:00:07
Speaker
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01:00:21
Speaker
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