Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to the Superhero Cinephiles Podcast. I'm your host, Perry Constantine, and we are continuing with our Black History Month rebroadcast, and this time I decided to go with a more recent episode. This is from the post -Derek era, when I had Kellen Conley come on to discuss The Falcon and the Winter Soldier, the entire first season of that on Disney+. This was originally two episodes, but I've re -edited it together to be one long episode, so I hope you enjoy that, and I will see you next time.
Speaker: I understand that list of names. People you've wronged as the Winter Soldier. Don't push it. I've seen that book. It was Steve's when he came out at ice. I told him about trouble, man. He wrote it in that book. You hear it? What'd you think? I like 40's music, so...
Speaker: You didn't like it? I liked it. It is a masterpiece, James. Complete, comprehensive. It captures the African -American experience. He's out of line, but he's right.
Speaker: It's great. Everybody loves Marvin Gaye. I like Marvin Gaye. Steve adored Marvin Gaye. You must have really looked up to Steve, but I realized something when I met him. The danger with people like him, America's super soldiers, is that we put them on pedestals. Watch your steps, Imo. They become symbols, icons, and then we start to forget about their flaws. From there, cities fly.
Speaker: Innocent people die, movements are formed, wars are fought. You remember that right? As a young soldier sent to Germany to stop a mad icon. Do we want to live in a world full of people like the Red Skull?
Speaker: That is why we're going to Madripoor. What's up with Madripoor? You guys talk about it like a skull island. An island nation in the Indonesian archipelago. A pirate sanctuary back in the 1800s. It's kept its lawless ways, but we cannot exactly walk in as ourselves. James, you will have to become someone you claim is gone.
Speaker: Welcome to the Superhero Cinephiles podcast. I'm your host, Perry Constantine. And when Derek was still with us, we had a tradition that we had done two years in the row where every February we'd spotlight black superheroes. And one of the things we ended up finding out the second year we did this is that there actually aren't a whole lot of black superhero movies. So we started to, that's how we ended up with Steel.
Speaker: And since Derek's no longer with us, I wanted to do something to kind of continue the tradition. And I thought I'd bring on another one of my favorite black nerds who's been on the show before. And that's Kellen Conley. Kell, how are you doing today? I'm great, Perry. It's good to be back, man. It's always good to sit in the seat that Derek used to occupy. So I'm happy to be here and I'm ready to talk about a black superhero.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. So my idea was, I was thinking like, cause I had already scheduled a bunch of interviews and I had actually had two more episodes scheduled to record before I actually started talking to you. And I'm like, wait, I should really do something for, for, for February. I'm like, I don't want people to think that I'm just like, as soon as Derek's gone, I'm just not going to do it anymore. Then I thought about, you know, asking you to come on and I thought, well, you know, you know, Falcon and Winter Soldier would probably be a pretty good thing to talk about.
Speaker: It's a very good thing to talk about. And honestly, I haven't talked about it on any podcast. So I'm very excited to talk about it, honestly, today. Yeah, we had a Derek and I had mentioned a few times because it just started airing right before he passed. I'm not even sure if he had actually managed to see the whole thing, but I know we saw like at least like the first two episodes or so. They're very good episodes. Very good episodes. Yeah. And so.
Speaker: Let's jump right into it. In this first episode, we're going to talk about the first three episodes. So that's New World Order, The Star -Spangled Man, and Power Broker. And then next episode, we'll talk about the last three. So let's, focusing just on these first episodes, what were things you were thinking about when it aired, when you first saw it?
Speaker: Well, when they first announced it, I am all the way in on MCU. Like they can mostly do no wrong. I still got to watch Eternals to give you a true opinion on that one. I got to rewatch it. But they've mostly never done wrong for me. So I was excited. I always liked the small moments that we got between Bucky and Falcon in the movies. So I thought that expanding upon that, especially with the events of Endgame and everything and with
Speaker: essentially a cat passing a shield to Sam at the end of everything. I was eager to see exactly how that would play out. I didn't, I know we're going to talk about it later, but I didn't see the the full journey going the way I way it did, honestly, like
Speaker: Um, like the beginning of everything when, when Bucky is like, or not, Bucky Falcon immediately like gives up the shield. I was like, yo, what are we doing here? Like, and, and I hadn't read any spoilers or anything. So I had no clue what was coming, which I'm very glad that we went on that ride with him. But for him to immediately give up the shield and feel not worthy, it,
Speaker: It felt like something Sam would do. But at the same time, Sam was just as big of a part of everything, of saving the world, just like the rest of the Avengers were. And so for him to kind of feel inadequate at first and feel like he's not deserving of the shield, I thought it was a very good take, because we've never seen anything with Sam, like on an emotional level. Like we got a lot of them in Winter Soldier, but besides that, it's all been like getting beat up by the Ant -Man and then he'd show up in the movies.
Speaker: and kind of spar back with Bucky and stuff. But besides that, we just never really had that exposure to him on a deeper level. So I really think that it was a cool thing that we got to see Sam Sean in that way, especially like in going that journey with them and starting with this episode.
Speaker: And then on the other side of it with Bucky, I thought for sure they were going to be grooming Bucky to be the next cap. So to see him dealing with therapy and then finding out of course that he had befriended someone that the father of someone he actually killed when he was under the Winter Soldier Program was just crazy to me. And it was a hell of a start to the series, I thought, man, like I was ready for more as soon as I finished it.
Speaker: Yeah, same thing. I was also kind of taken aback by, because I figured my impression of the series going in, because we knew that John Walker was going to be in there, and he was going to be the new cap based on previews and everything.
Speaker: What I thought was gonna happen though, was that Sam was going to have the shield the whole time. And then like later on, he'd eventually, you know, put on the suit. But I figured like, at least in the beginning, you know, that shield that they give John Walker, I thought that would have actually been like a replica shield or something. And Sam would have had like the real thing. So I was really kind of surprised to see, like you said, like right at the front, right at the start, he's given the shield away. Right, and he trusted the government, which is crazy. Yeah.
Speaker: He's like, yeah, let me just give this to you guys and you guys will put it in the museum, right? Yes, we will, Sam. Absolutely. Don't you worry. But you did mention something in there that really stood out to me and that's, and I didn't really put those two things together, but you're right. We never really got a whole lot of, of Sam on an emotional, personal level. Like we get little, maybe a little bit of a hint of it in winter soldier when he's talking about his past and we see him, you know,
Speaker: counseling the veterans and stuff like that. But that was really about it. Like other than that, it's just, you know, he's Cap's backup. He's Cap's partner. He's just here to kind of like, you know, ride shotgun and make funny jokes with Bucky and have their whole rivalry thing going. But that was all, that was it. And to see, you know, cause I've seen Mackie and other things and he's a great actor. And it was really nice to see him really kind of like, you know, get to flex those muscles in this role.
Speaker: Yeah, because like you said, he's been in many, many movies. His filmography is huge and he's always been a good actor to me. So seeing him coming to MCU was exciting because Winter Soldier was so good. But then like you said, he was just always in the background. So getting to see him, especially like the scenes with his
Speaker: sister, I believe. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. When like getting to see that he had a family and everything. And, and there, I mean, even though he, like, it was the first episode, right? When they try to go to the bank and get a loan and then, and they're just like, uh, yeah, we can't give you a loan. Like, and he's like, what are you talking about? I saved the world. They're like, thank you. But, uh, that's not how credit works.
Speaker: Especially because you disappear for five years. Yeah. And also like, just a quick mention of it, even though it's a prevalent thing especially in phase four. The effects of the blip still being felt is really something that's being well done, because
Speaker: I could have easily just left it at the end of in game, but like everybody's back then. But we've seen it affect far from home. We've seen it affect WandaVision and just all these different scenarios are still playing out. And like even it's mentioned in Eternals, I believe. It's always a constant thing to blip the blip the blip. So it's nothing that they're just this. It's not like in the comic books where it's like this crazy thing happened. But guess what? They saved the world and it's over. That's how comic books work. They're actually still long term effects.
Speaker: from the blip like Dr. Strange and even the Sorcerer Supreme because he was gone for five years. So that's something that's really cool. But Sebastian Stan is bringing just as much, is bringing just as much of his role as Bucky as Mackie is because
Speaker: with Bucky of course we saw him be redeemed of course once he went to Wakanda and sure he helped him with the brainwashing and getting over the programming and of course he blipped out too and then next thing you know that he's back then Cap's like all right I'll go take these stones and then all of a sudden Cap's back and he's old and like he never I mean obviously he got to say goodbye where we assume that
Speaker: That cap is still around at some point old cap. We just don't know if Chris Evans will ever come back to the role. He doesn't have to. He's done enough, I feel like. Yeah, yeah. But just getting to see more of him trying to come to grips with what he's done, especially with his
Speaker: him taking a cue from Cap's book with, um, and Winter Soldier, you saw like Cap had a little notebook of things that he needed to catch up on. Like one of the example is, uh, Sam was like, you need to listen to Marvin Gaye's Troubleman. And so Cap's like, let me write that down. And he literally wrote down. So Bucky has taken a page from Cap and now he's actually has this list of people that he's done wrong in the same book, actually. Yeah. And then exactly literally the same book.
Speaker: Yeah, so he's going and trying to redeem and try to find forgiveness in his own way while still being bucky and the former Winter Soldier. And it's not like he's not known. So it's very hard to make amends when you literally have blood in your register. Is that how? Ledger. Ledger, yes, as a widow would put it. So the setup of this was just brilliantly done, I thought.
Speaker: Yeah, I thought that the relationship between Sam and Bucky is so good in this because, you know, we got to see them, you know, being kind of antagonistic towards each other and kind of like this fun way in civil war. And then in Endgame,
Speaker: you know we kind of got a little hint that maybe there's some kind of mutual respect for each other because there's that scene at the end when Cap goes away and like it's just like this small thing but he just says he's like hey Sam you know and it's just like this not antagonistic or anything and he's got this knowing smile on his face the entire time and
Speaker: And so like, because he and this, what I had suspected and what this series, you know, in the in the second half, latter half confirms is that Cap had told Bucky about his plan, and it talked about passing on the shield to Sam. So Bucky had known that which kind of explains like the way he was he kind of smiled and he kind of like, you know, nodded for, for Sam to go on and take the shield. And
Speaker: And one of the nice things I like about what this series did is it doesn't erase that kind of newfound mutual respect they have for each other, but it also doesn't forget the kind of like animosity they had for each other either.
Speaker: No, like they are the best of front of me. Yeah, exactly how they are. That's the best way to put it. Yeah. And and we also get some other, you know, one of the nice things here, nice surprises here is we get, you know, roadie popping up. Yes. Although one of the weird things is like he got nominated for like an Emmy or something for just that one cameo and nobody else in the show got anything.
Speaker: Oh man, they must have been grasping at straws or something. They're like, hey, Don Cheadle hadn't been a nominator for some in a while. Let's just throw them to see you a bone to get them to shut up about never getting nominated for anything. Even he was surprised. Like, I don't know why they nominated me for that. Especially when he wasn't going to win, you know. Definitely almost a pity nomination.
Speaker: One thing you also mentioned there was Sam's sister in the in the bank scene and one of the things I thought was really kind of funny about that scene is the whole thing of where we find out that the Avengers don't get paid because that's a change from the comics because at least you know at least pre -Bendis because you know when Bendis came along they'd already they'd already dissolved the old chart and everything but the original Avengers charter like
Speaker: all active members and um and reserve members they get a they get a salary yeah they were on stark payroll yeah yeah they got a stark payroll they were able to live in the in the mansion if they wanted to and and yeah if you're a reserve member then you got a slightly lower salary but yeah everybody got some sort of salary so for him to just be like he's like yeah tony stark didn't give us anything i'm like come on tony what the fuck man
Speaker: It feels like one of those things that he just never got to. Like, honestly, let's think about it real quick because Civil War happened. He opened up the new facility and things were kind of progressing pretty quick. And then, of course, he fell out with Cap and they weren't talking for a long time, honestly, until Endgame when he showed back up on planet. So it could have been something that was in the works. And then when the Scovia Accords came out and everything, they're like, OK, we're going to all register. And Cap's like, nah, I ain't registered nothing.
Speaker: So I'm sure at one point Tony's like, let's make this official. Make sure everybody gets paid. And he just never got to it. And then the blip happened. I mean, come on, man. There was at least like a four year gap between the first of the year in Civil War. You could have got something done. Pepper should have figured it out. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: But she probably was getting ready to work on it when she left them, so she wasn't around to do it either. Dang, Tony, always leaving behind something, somebody else got clean up. But another nice thing here is we get Batroc back. And I thought he was like, he was this really cool little part in Winter Soldier. And after that movie, I'm like, all right, we're never going to see Batroc again. And then he pops up here, and I thought that was really cool.
Speaker: Yeah, that that truck is great. I'm always like he's he's definitely in caps robes gallery from the comic books, but he was just always again one of those people that pop up like, Oh, look, it's a backdrop month or month or two months, you know, he was never never somebody that really felt like a real threat. He was just somebody that caps on every now and then.
Speaker: But he always had a cool back history. So seeing him come into the movies like we did, again, we thought maybe he'd be around longer, but he wasn't in the films, but he's utilized really well in this series too, I think. So I was happy to see Bad Truck as well.
Speaker: And you also talked about the blip. And I think this, at least up until now, I think no other show or movie has really dealt with the blip in as much of a focus as this series has so far. Yeah. I mean, the whole plot kind of hinges on it a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. And it makes so much sense because, you know, in some of the other stuff, it's just kind of this
Speaker: OK, yeah, we got to mention this and get it out of the way, like far from home kind of felt like that in a little bit. It's like they got that little thing at the beginning. And but then it's like, OK, let's move on then from the blip and eternals, too. Like you said, it was just kind of like, you know, a little mention here. And that was about it. But.
Speaker: And WandaVision also, little bit of a mention, but it wasn't really the focus at all. This really dials in and it's like the whole thing revolves around. And I was not expecting this much emphasis on it, which is good too. It was one of the nice little surprises about this show.
Speaker: Yeah. And, and the way that they built it up and like I said, put it right in the plot, like the idea that there was five years where half the population on earth was going. So yeah, there was all this, these places where people used to live that was available to people who didn't have anything. And so for world leaders, honestly,
Speaker: to sit there and be like, oh, well, they're back and it was theirs before. So they get to take it back. It's just a little crazy. Like I could honestly see this being a huge hot button topic if it was the real world. Oh, yeah. Because how do you tell these people who
Speaker: who pulled themselves up by their bootstraps and took advantage of this property that was available, especially for five years and then tell them, oh, well, you got to move and you don't have anywhere to go now because the blip happened and they're all back. So they want their property back. Like it's a very catch 22 situation.
Speaker: and it's very much playing up into those like kind of imperialist colonial themes that I think that the show is kind of dealing with on a on a on a subtler level because this idea of like hey you know when we need you we're gonna we're gonna take advantage of all this help you're giving us and then as soon as we don't need you anymore well you're on your own yeah yeah I mean and
Speaker: Yeah, I hate it. Like I felt, I actually was really on the attack and aside when them this whole thing, like I felt for their cause, like, did they go a little far? Obviously. I mean, they had to, in order to catch, to be as big of a threat as they were throughout the show.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, at the same time, it's like there's kids that literally have nowhere to go now because the government says they got to go. So it's really something that plucked the heartstrings. And that's something that the show did very well throughout everything because, yeah, there was all the action and stuff. It's like, yeah, man, it's so cool. Like, oh, my God, Zemo is awesome.
Speaker: But then there was some real issues being dealt with on the other side of the dial. So they covered their bases really well. Yeah. Yeah, the Flag Smashers had very, very legitimate complaints in here. And I didn't realize this because I thought maybe they created Carly Morgenthau for the show. But it turns out it's just the original Flag Smasher in the comics was Carl Morgenthau. So they just gender swapped them.
Speaker: Yeah, which is fine with me. I didn't hear anybody complaining. Yeah, yeah, that was a neat little, that was a nice little twist. Yeah, and it was kind of, it was it, because I think in the, in the comics, the flag smasher was like his identity and then
Speaker: ultimatum was like his organization or something like that. They just kind of like combined those two things and just make the organization the Flag Smashers, which I thought made a lot of sense. And it really worked for what they were doing. And it totally fit. Like the Flag Smashers are pretty much tailor made for this situation. So I thought it was a really good use of that.
Speaker: Right. Because whenever you need that kind of organization who's going to cause havoc, but you don't want it to be on a global destruction level. The Flag Smashers are kind of perfect for that kind of thing. So yeah, I agree. And then, well, let's talk about the new cap now. John Walker comes in Wyatt Russell, following his dad's footsteps into the MCU.
Speaker: Yes. Yes. Um, I'm going to say this right now. Um, I loved most every moment that John Walker was captain America. Um, because one, like, again, I, I, I didn't have a clue. Like I, I saw it like maybe right. Well, obviously I saw that in episode one and I was like, yo, they're doing John Walker. So I, I was completely blindsided by that.
Speaker: Um, but then I was a fan of US agent, um, from the comic books, um, and also from fan fiction because I, one of my friends, uh, Clayton totally, he used to write that for Marvel anthology back in the day. And I fell in love with his version of John Walker and.
Speaker: To say that they nailed who John Walker, Captain America was is an understatement, because he's cocky. He has the work ethic. They didn't go the route of immediately powering them up.
Speaker: Eventually they did get there. But if there was anybody who was the right candidate to replace Cap, they kind of picked the right person, except the only difference is Cap wasn't a complete jerk. And John Walker definitely was. But at the same time, Walker had good intentions. It was just his ego would constantly get in the way. So I absolutely liked
Speaker: about 85 % of the things he did on the show up until obviously when he went a little nuts. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I thought he did it. I mean, it shows you what a great job he did is we're watching, I'm watching the show and my wife is kind of like tuning in and out. And she was like, I miss Chris Evans. Like, I don't like this guy. He's an asshole. And I'm like, well, yeah, that's kind of the point. He's the point.
Speaker: Right. He's doing his job. But one of the things that I liked about, because with US agent in the comics, there's a tendency to go too far with him being an asshole and just make him an unlikable prick.
Speaker: And I think this series did a really good job of taking you right up to that line, but not crossing over it. Because he was honestly just trying to do the best he could, man. He really wanted to fill those shoes. And I like that they didn't go the jingoistic route, which is sometimes what they do in the comic books. They completely avoided that.
Speaker: And also I was kind of, I was really surprised that you know Battlestar got so much play in this series. I know I mean he he was a vital part of the, of the storyline too. Um, I was real happy to see him. I enjoyed his rapport with.
Speaker: with John, I thought you could really tell that they were best friends. And it was nice to see their rapport in comparison to Cap and Bucky's rapport, especially like pre Winter Soldier and after Winter Soldier. Like it really shows that when you're in these military situations and even in a fictional world.
Speaker: You go to war and you're only surrounded by literally the other people I go to war with. And there are literally lifelong, lifelong bonds that you make with these other people. And you all hope to come home and not everybody does. But when you do it, a lot of times it's just like picking up with your best friend no matter what. And because literally they were there with you when you're both of your line, both of your bacon was in the fire essentially.
Speaker: So I really did like to see how they came together and how they dealt with one another. And it was cool to kind of see, especially once they got battle starring in him going and stuff, their synergy on the battlefield was kind of crazy. Like they were nice with it. And again, it just showed why, even though the government should never give cap shield away, why the government almost made the right choice to replace cap.
Speaker: And unless I'm mistaken, in the comics, Battlestar was kind of portrayed as kind of dim -witted, wasn't he? Yeah. And so I liked that they didn't go that, and then they made him kind of like the brains of the operation here. Right. He was a more rational one because John was more reactionary. Yeah. So he was the one who was kind of like, all right, well, let's play it like this. And then John would listen to him at first. And then they would go from there. So I enjoyed that as well.
Speaker: Yeah, and yeah, he was a really good addition. I was not expecting to get as much of him in the series. And one of the things that surprised me too is we have, they created a life for Walker in this, but she doesn't really have any purpose in the series other than just being there. Yeah, I thought that was interesting, but I don't,
Speaker: I think that might have been, I think it was more like they felt like it was needed to try to add to it to make him more likable. It was like, oh, well, he has a wife and everything or stakes for him involved versus just making him this suddenly single Captain America who he literally was everywhere. Like he was on Good Morning America. He was like billboards everywhere. Like it was literally like
Speaker: It was everything that celebrities in America are today where they're constantly everywhere. It was like cap, cap, cap, cap. And it was like all anybody was talking about. So I think they did that in an effort to humanize them and kind of put more emphasis on the man behind the new cap. I don't necessarily feel like it was needed though. So I kind of see what they were going for though.
Speaker: Because this this series I think probably more than any other really suffered because of the pandemic because they they had to shut down production in the middle of it and right because this was originally supposed to come out before Black Widow I believe or Black Widow was supposed to come out before this I think is I think it was I think it was Black Widow was supposed to be March of 2020
Speaker: And then I think this was supposed to follow because WandaVision kind of came out on time, I believe. I think it was still supposed to be like late 2020, late 2020 into early 2021 as well as the projected time for WandaVision. So I think that was mostly still on time despite the pandemic. But I believe you're correct. Widow was supposed to come out first and then we were supposed to jump right to CAP or Falcon Winter Soldier. Sorry.
Speaker: So I'm guessing that they switched, they may have changed up the stinger credits on Black Widow base because obviously they introduced
Speaker: Uh, Julia Louis Dreyfus's character in this series first. Yeah. Um, and we'll talk about her more in the next episode because yeah, I got a lot to say about her. But, uh, but yeah, and also like the, the episodes had kind of changed the storyline and even changed because originally they were supposed to, the, the flag smashers were really supposed to,
Speaker: try and release a bio weapon. That was like their block. And then because of the pandemic, they're all just kind of like, you know, maybe you shouldn't use a biological weapon here. Maybe that's a little instant. Yeah. Yeah. So, so they changed a lot of stuff around. And I think, and, um, that may have been some stuff with the, um, with John's wife getting kind of like, you know, pushed to the wayside as a result of this.
Speaker: Yeah, she might have had a more meaty role before they had to change things. That makes sense. Yeah. But I think the big star of at least these first three episodes, though, you know, or, you know, basically really the third episode is really where because he's just appears at the end in the second episode is, you know, Baron Zemo coming back. Yes. And I was so looking forward to see because, you know, we talked about this when we talked about way back when we talked about civil war is that
Speaker: Up until Thanos, Zemo was my second favorite villain in the MCU. I thought he was like the more, or actually I should say up until Killmonger, but like up until that point, he was just like second only to Loki, because he had such good motivation. It was the first time in the MCU when the villain actually won, because he'd gotten everything he wanted. Yeah, he really did, yeah.
Speaker: Zemo, I didn't think we were going to see Zemo in the series. So when they went on Barnes and Wilson aside, we're going to go see Zemo. I was like, yo, wait a minute. They're going to go see him. That's crazy.
Speaker: out of out of all the major villains in MCU leading up to, leading up to Civil War. Most of them were, you know, it was like Loki obviously was a brother of Thor, Iron Man was Iron Monger and then it became
Speaker: Avalanche? No, Whiplash. Whiplash. Whiplash. And then in Cap's movies, it was Red Skull. And in Civil War, Winter Soldier essentially, shield against Cap was really what it was. So it was all things that had been triggered by
Speaker: Obviously the superheroes and the superheroes also triggered Zemo. But, as we learned in the beginning of the movie it was due to the collateral damage from Ultron, Ultron's another one there, there you go, that of course Tony and, and
Speaker: And Bruce, Bruce made, made Ultron. So it was always a cause and effect thing. Now there was cause and effect in Civil War, but again, it was cause of collateral damage. Sokovia happened. His family died. And literally, he, as we find out in this series, he's way more, there's way more to him than what we saw in Civil War.
Speaker: But he literally found his way to get the winter soldier codes, break into winter soldiers containment unit.
Speaker: turn them back into the winter soldier. And he just kept sitting all these, he was always just one step ahead of the heroes until it's a child caught up with them at the end of the Civil War. So I really liked him as well. And he literally fractured Tony and Cap, which who would have thought that even thinkable until Tony realized that Cap knew that Bucky had killed his parents. So, and I still won't forget that reveal. So I also just love Zemo and I love the way they use them in this entire series.
Speaker: And they take him to the next level. I did not expect, because I figured, oh, he's just going to be Zemo here. There's not going to be any Baron Zemo. But then they walk out, and they walk into the garage. He's like, oh, I'm a Baron. And I'm like, they're being a Baron Zemo. I love that.
Speaker: Yes. You know, gave him his Royal lineage. Absolutely. And they brought back, they brought, they gave him the sock mask too, the purple mask. I love that. He got the mask on and he was holding his own man. Like it wasn't no, no kind of situation where like it was ever Zemo's in trouble. No, no Zemo, Zemo could have went so to so a cap if he had to, man. I would have, I would like, maybe we still will hurt a future. Um, I would like to see them actually square up and see a fight in MCU between the two of them. Cause they will be really good, I think.
Speaker: Also, they did a really good job of incorporating not only the mask, but other elements of his costume, like the coat he's wearing, it's got the color with the little polka dots, just like in the comics he wears. And I love that. And he's so funny, because he didn't get to be funny in Civil War. He was always so serious, like, oh, you ruined my life. And now he's like, yeah, you ruined my life. But I can also be fun.
Speaker: And he's welcomed comic relief throughout all of it. And he never looks, I mean, he has his moments where he looks out for other people, but he never stops putting Baron Zemo as priority number one, even when we think he's not. And I just love it, I'm here for it. Yeah, I loved how, and like you said, he provides this comic relief, but it never does it at the expense of making him like a goofy character, a slapstick character. It's not like a Justin Hammer situation.
Speaker: No, he's cool funny like exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And like it just like and he says things that he's making sense. And even, you know, I love my favorite line, I think, from this is when.
Speaker: You know, taking it back to what you mentioned about about trouble man when, you know, when Bucky takes out the little book and Sam's like hey yeah Steve had that book I told him about Marvin Gaye and he wrote it down in there it's like do you like Marvin Gaye he's like, was not really my thing. And he's like what you've got to listen to it and then Zemo he's like he's like he's like troubleman it perfectly captures the African American experience and Sam just like
Speaker: He's like, well, look, he shouldn't be saying that shit, but he's right. He's right. He's right. Like he said, he's not allowed to say that, but he's right. Yeah. Yes. Oh man. I love that scene. Just the little things. And just like the dancing, right?
Speaker: Yes. Dancing in the club, man. Marvel literally put on their YouTube channel. I think it's still up. It's like a hour long cut of him just doing a little bop in the club. Yes. I want to be Baron Zemo when I grow up. I think I finally figured it out. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker: Another thing they brought in in that third episode, which is probably like the first biggest X -Men connection we've gotten in the MCU is they go to Madripoor. And as soon as they said Madripoor, I'm like, yes, yes, it's happening, it's happening.
Speaker: I know that they're good. They're going to draw X -Men as long as they can. And I don't know if you've seen the doctor strange trailer, but yeah. So I think we're close to entering that world. Um, obviously it's the multi -verse world, but still we're very close to it. But, uh, yeah, here, here in anything X -Men and MCU is just so cool because again, it's just something we've been shopping at the bit for. So even to get like a city that we know is well known throughout the mutant universe,
Speaker: Yeah. And this second watch around, I noticed they had the princess bar there in the background. I didn't notice that before. Yeah. I think I missed that the first time too. So that's definitely in there. And again, the MCU was just so good at planting the seeds so that when they're ready for the seeds to grow and pop up, it's like, oh yeah. And that's just another thing that they've always stayed good at. So I'm glad that they are continuing that tradition.
Speaker: One of the things I think that they they're doing is, and this, this has been, you know, I've talked to some people who know people who work on some of this stuff and it's, they don't have things all planned out like a lot of people think they, but they kind of, they're kind of winging it in a way, but they kind of do that thing that Claremont used to do when he was writing the X -Men where
Speaker: he'll, he'll drop these little nuggets in. And then when he doesn't know what to do for a story, he goes back and he's like, Oh, that's right. I planned it this year. So now I can write a story about that. Right. And that's a smart, that's smart writing. It's, and it's, it works in such a, it works in a way where it makes you think that everything's been planned out and really it's not. Um, but it's led to some really nice little kind of surprises like, um, uh, in, um,
Speaker: in Iron Man 2, for example, when they had the little kid and then it's like later on, they're like, oh, that was Peter Parker. Right. Or Shang -Chi's father, right? And the Mandarin and all that kind of stuff. And where they planted that in at the end of, in the All Hill, the King, and then that there's a real Mandarin out there. And then everyone's like, okay, we're never gonna see him. And then boom, here comes Tony Long and he's Shang -Chi's father.
Speaker: And he's awesome. He's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. And that's okay that it's not all planned out, but like you said, as long as they know they have those to fall back on sometimes and they can build on them, it's always a nice little emergency exit in case they have to use it for something. Yeah. And I think that's, as a writer, and I think you'll probably relate to this too, but it makes me feel a little bit better about myself because there's lots of times when you're writing stuff and you're just kind of like,
Speaker: yeah I know I should be planning the stuff out but you know I'm just gonna write it and see where it goes and then you kind of feel like you get that little imposter syndrome going on and then and then because then you read interviews with you know quote unquote real writers and they're like oh yeah I had it all planned out and I took and then and then you really ask them they're like no no man I didn't really
Speaker: I mean, Derek was the same way, because Derek, when he got in the mood, Derek would just write and write and write and write. And so there would be things that I would mention to him or that somebody else mentioned to him about something he wrote. He like, I put that in there. He'd always be like.
Speaker: He's like, yeah, I did put that in there. That's exactly what I wanted to do. And then obviously he didn't. But I mean, then he was probably just made a little note. He's like, I put this in the last train to Koshura so I can, you know. So so it is something that writers naturally do. And the good ones are able to pick back up on it and reuse it later versus people who just leave plats hanging all over the place like Howard Mackey. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Who thought we were going to get a Howard Mackey reference on this episode? Who had that on their bingo card? And then also we get at the very end of the last episode we're going to talk about here, you know, we get the the Dora Milaje pop -up. Like I was not expecting anything from Wakanda to pop up in here.
Speaker: I'm glad they went there, man, because obviously Wakanda is responsible for Bucky getting better. He's their white wolf. I really feel like there is a lot of, and we saw a little bit of it here. I think there's a lot of respect and love and admiration between the people of Wakanda and T 'Challa and Bucky, especially because they literally saved his life. So I'm glad that,
Speaker: I'm glad that with that they made that connection. And then also that Sherry was smart enough to put to make his arm to be able to shut down his arm. He's like.
Speaker: Like, we're always, I don't know what she said, I can't remember, but I was pretty much along the lines of, we are, we prepare for everything. So, especially when you're a assassin turned back to normal, air quotes. So. Oh, so that's actually the next part. So before, let's, let's table that discussion. And the last thing we got to talk about, which we haven't talked about yet, is Isaiah Bradley and bringing in the stuff from the truth.
Speaker: Yeah, I wasn't ready. I wasn't ready. I'm just going to jump in here real quick. I read the truth years ago and I was floored that Marvel would even have, I mean, because that was 2001 when all that came out. So I was floored that Marvel even had
Speaker: And I mean, it was 2001 and Marvel's always been kind of progressive, but Marvel literally said, oh, oh, by the way, they took all these black guys and experimented on them and tried to, you know, give them super soldier formula and make them superheroes. And then this guy came the closest, but we just never utilized them. And then we tortured them for years.
Speaker: It just blew my mind. And then for them to bring that into the MCU and have Sam discover that there was a Black Captain America, which he had no idea, obviously.
Speaker: I think that this is obviously where the seeds are sown for his regrets about giving up the shield, because obviously, as we are going to talk about later, one of the things he says is America will never accept the black a black man as Captain America. So to find out that America went to that well, but then America also was America and didn't actually pull the trigger on utilizing Isaiah Bradley properly and then thrown in and essentially just be being horrible to him for 30 years.
Speaker: It made it really, I think I cried twice in a series and this was it. And then when later on when Sam takes over and his first time he's on screen, it was kind of like, it felt like a moment. It felt like a Black Panther moment where it was like, yo, this is super dope.
Speaker: But yeah, just hearing Isaiah Bradley go over everything they did to him and then his reluctance to talk to Sam and him essentially telling Sam that they'll never respect you and they'll never love you and you'll never be able to fill his shoes. And even as a hero, he was saying it's not worth it. They don't care about you and they never will.
Speaker: It really hit home. Obviously, I'm not a superhero, but it's something that I deal with every day, you know, just being black in case you're not watching a video. He did say black nerd earlier. Yeah.
Speaker: You know, these are things we think about that aren't normally touched upon or worried about by white people, so to speak. So I really like that they were willing to go that in depth and mind the truth because
Speaker: Like, you know, Marvel really hadn't talked a lot about it, because if you remember, like, when Cassata and Bill Jemis was in charge, and they put out, like, all these controversial series, like, of course, like, you remember that, that Marvel series, where it was, like, Aunt May as a young person. Oh, yeah, I had trouble.
Speaker: yeah trouble and then and then this came out so they were like putting out this edgy content and then when there was any kind of pushback on it they're like oh yeah we're just trying it out uh well you know don't and then they kind of distance themselves so for for them to go back um and and make that into the mcu and literally put into the mcu i really thought was a very cool thing to do yeah i think i think it shows the strength of
Speaker: the truth miniseries compared to some of those other things because like you know trouble that was just you know weird Mark Millar was drunk or something and he was just like why are we doing this drunk if he's it he's always like if he's not literally drunk he's at least like you know mentally drunk or something i just found out the other day perry that he took over ultimate x -men when he started ultimate x -men and he he didn't know nothing about the x -men
Speaker: That makes total sense. And I was just like, no wonder it was so weird because it's like, Bendis had had some spider background and he just kind of introduced the elements in his own way and stuff. But the first couple that first X had been around was just so crazy. And I was like, why would they do that? But at the same time, they were just all about trying to sell books. I do remember I had gone back. I remember because I remember back when it was coming out, like I loved it, you know, being a being a teenager at the time and then rereading it later. And you're just like,
Speaker: It seemed like some bad things. Yeah, it was just like I remember one review I had read way back in the day after the.
Speaker: I think it was after the sixth issue and the reviewer has said like, I'm tired of this adolescent exercise and dick waving. And I'm like, if there's ever been a quote that perfectly sums up Miller's work, I think that's it. And the killer thing though, and we'll get back to Falcon and Winter Soldier in a minute, but I do want to get this out. It's like the killer thing though is that
Speaker: He can be a good writer when he tries. Yeah. Like, you know, Red Son was amazing. Red Son was great. And yeah, Red Son is a great one. And then Kick Ass. I really liked the first Kick Ass. I thought I thought that was really cool. I hate it wanted, personally, but when he shines, he was so stupid at the end. Like, you're not even reading his book. Like, OK. OK, yeah. Thanks, Mark. Enjoy the castle that we helped fund.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Pretty much. So when he's on, he's on, but when he's just throwing things at a wall, like even he wrote a Wolverine enemy in his state, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And Wolverine agent of shield, like even that stuff was like old man, Logan, right? Like there's, there's like half of that is half of that is amazing. And then you've got redneck hulks fucking each other. And I'm like, yeah, I was going to say incestuous. Yeah. Redneck hulks. Don't leave that part out. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: Mark Millar has a drinking problem. You heard it here. Here, folks. There you go. Send any hate mail to Kellen Conley. Yeah. Be hyphen. V -H -Y -P -H -E -N -A -G -M -L dot com. There you go. But yeah, and I think that one of the things that going back to what I was saying about the truth is that
Speaker: You know when it was announced, along with the midst of all this other stuff like trouble and all this other stuff is like you look at it and you think they're just they're just trying to be controversial, but then you read the truth you sit down and you read it and it's an amazing book like it is. It's so good. It's so well done and
Speaker: And I think that's why - I need to revisit it. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's why it stood the test of time. They recently released a collection of it because it had been - Oh, did they? It had been, yeah, the collection had been out of print for a while. And I think it was like maybe last year they had a black history month sale where I got, where they had all the individual issues for free. Oh, nice. But now they've released a new trade I saw the other day on comics. Okay. I might have to check that out. Yeah. Cause literally I haven't, I have not read it since it came out, I don't think, but it impacted me then. Yeah. And I'm sure it was, have a statement impacted me now.
Speaker: But it's something, too, that they've gone back and they've revisited since. Right. And like, you know, one of my favorite instances when when Christopher Priest was doing the crew and he introduced Isaiah's son Josiah X. Right. And basically, you know, Malcolm X and the Marvel Universe who becomes Captain America or you should should have become Captain America. Yeah, should have been Captain America. Yeah.
Speaker: And that was a character that I wish we had gotten to see again, because he hasn't popped up since that series. But then we also got Eli Bradley in The Young Avengers, Patriot. So they've kept that legacy alive in the comics, at least. And I think that's a testament to
Speaker: how powerful that original series was. And to bring in Carl Lumley to play Isaiah in this was just - Oh man, perfect casting. Carl Lumley for a lot of people is the first black superhero in media. I know you had Robert Townsend before him and the guy who played A -Bar, but the one that most people I think remember is Carl Lumley as the mantis.
Speaker: Yes. Yeah. And I love the Mantis as a kid, man. That show was incredible. That show was incredible. So to see him come full circle and get to play this role, like who would have thought when he was doing a Fox TV show that years later he would get to be the Black Captain America, the first Black Captain America in the MCU. So that was a very cool nod that they decided to go that route on casting.
Speaker: And they had that element of tragedy. Cause if you remember in the truth, like his mind had been kind of degraded from all the experiments they had done on him. And in this one, and I think they kind of combined elements of Josiah's story with Isaiah and to make the, he's almost like a composite character in that way. Cause he's very much, he's very much with it. But they added that element of tragedy. Cause in the comic books, you know, his wife is still alive and she's taking care of him. Yeah.
Speaker: But here they have the aspect his wife is dead and she died while he was in prison. They never let him read any of the letters she sent and all that. And that adds them so dirty. And it's a whole different element of tragedy to his story, because at least in the in the comics, you know, he's not really fully aware of what had happened to this guy knows everything that happened to him.
Speaker: Yeah, and that just makes this story even more tragic. Because I know that we have a way of blocking things out, but literally he says that he remembers everything. So I can't imagine
Speaker: having to wake up every day and the kind of nightmares or even the day mares that he might have to experience just from the traumas he's seen. So it really did bring a lot of weight to his character and a real sharp jolt of reality to Sam. Not to say that Sam wasn't grounded enough, but
Speaker: I kind of feel like it was just a side that if they were going to go the route that they're going to make Sam cap, they did need to really bring the Black experience to the table and not just be like, here Sam, here you go. And Sam be like, thanks, I'm going to be the best cap ever. And in credits, like he has to he has to weigh both sides of the coin. And I think that's important just to his character and a testament to
Speaker: Oh, my, my brain sucks. The Anthony Mackie's acting ability. Yes. Yeah. And, um, and also tying into that too, like when they leave Isaiah's house and the cops try and stop them, like that was just like, I'm just like a whole, and, and the, the heel turn, as soon as they realize who he is. And I'm just like, I'm like, that's just.
Speaker: It kills you. And it's just like, it's like, you know what? Yeah, you're, you're all apologies now because you know, he's a superhero who can kick your ass, but you know, it's just like up until that point. And I imagine it's probably the same thing with, you know, black guys who are athletes or celebrities or something like that. Like they get pulled over and it's like, it's like, Hey, hey, that's, that's the guy like, Oh, oh shit. I'm so sorry, Mr. You know, so -and -so. And it's the exact same thing I imagine.
Speaker: Yeah, mostly I would think it would happen more with athletes because with celebrities, I feel like a cop, like, oh, I'm about to take down Snoop Dogg. I'm definitely going to make this arrest. And not that anybody should be arrested in Snoop's old ass. But I mean, yeah, it literally happens all the time where someone's racially profiled and the police go after a black guy.
Speaker: they're like oh and then they start running stuff and like oh we didn't realize you were um the sixth man off the next bench um sorry about that and then we'll just send you on the way and it's like uh yeah but you you kind of uh made me get on the ground and everything you cuffed me before you took my ID and ran it and so
Speaker: It was very again, ground in reality. And again, that was another way to drive home the point to Sam, that even if you're Captain America, you think he's somebody's like, Oh, pull them over and be like, Oh crap, you're Captain America.
Speaker: just awful. Well, it's also an echo of what happens at the bank, right? When the guy's like, you're, you're falcon. He's like, high five. And he's like, you know, can I, can I get a selfie with you? And then he's just like, he's like, really? You want to get, you want to get a selfie with me after you just denied me alone. Alone. It's just like, yeah, it's a cruel, cruel place. Yeah. And it's, and those little moments are, are
Speaker: I like, the series doesn't make them the focus, but it kind of does in another way, right? It all kind of builds up to these larger themes they're talking about. I thought it did a really good job with those things. Yeah. Because again, in order for them to really sell Sam as Cap, you have to look at all sides of it. And you can't just give Sam the shield because the fanboy like, well, we don't want Sam to be Cap. And we didn't like him when he was a Cap in the comic books, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker: We don't like that. To kind of have Sam truly go on a journey and really, really work to earn to be capped, because we're going to talk about here on next episode. But the shield scenes later, where he's just training, phenomenal. And again, grounded in reality that you can't just pick up capped shield and sling it, and it comes back to you. No, you've got to train with that MFR, man. Yeah, yeah, especially if you have any super soldier ceremony.
Speaker: Mm hmm. Exactly. And yeah, just like the first three episodes, I think, are just, you know, solid all the way through. I think the latter half that the series had stumbled a little bit, and that's when you really feel the pandemic effects and the rewrites coming in. But the first three episodes, totally solid. And just like the stuff with Isaiah, the stuff
Speaker: with Zemo, all of it just works together and the action, like, you know, it's basically, you know, looking at the trailers, everyone was doing was saying like, oh, it's, you know, you know, Falcon and Bucky, they're the they're the Rigs and Murtaugh of the Marvel Universe. It's like, leave the weapon and say, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, and I'm fine with that. I have no problem with that. Right.
Speaker: Yeah, the first three episodes do so much world building in such a short amount of time. We really haven't touched on Bucky that much because it's been so Sam focused so far. But Bucky goes on his own journey as well and both characters
Speaker: come out better than they were at the beginning of it. So I think that's something that was super important going into this as well because people and even friends of mine are skeptical about the MCU Disney Plus shows because they're like, I don't want to watch 10 episodes of Winter Soldier Falcon. I don't want to do that. I just want to watch a two and a half hour movie. That's cool. But at the same time, you have to realize that
Speaker: you're you're getting just as much story from the tv series as you are from a movie and is broken up so yeah it sucks waiting week to week when you're watching it live um but it's still the same mcu tried and true storytelling method and it's allowing them to really dive deeper in those characters you know like we were talking about you know we didn't really see that much it it's
Speaker: It's funny when you look back in retrospect, because when you were saying that, that hadn't clicked with me, because I'm just like, oh, yeah, that's right. We didn't really get a whole lot of Sam in the movies. And we kind of take it for granted after we see this show. It's like, oh, yeah. Because we also got the impressions of him from the comics, too. So we kind of build this character in our mind. And we kind of think that he's had more screen time than he actually has had.
Speaker: And I think the same same is true with Wanda and Vision. Like we got. Oh, yeah. I mean, because, you know, we thought we knew everything about Wanda and Vision before Wanda Vision. Like I was like, oh, yeah, you know, she she's Quicksilver's brother and he died in the age of Ultron. And then she lost her accident. She fell in love with Vision and they ran away. And there was just so much more to explore. And we're not talking about Wanda Vision clearly, but they did a wonderful job exploring both of those characters.
Speaker: Yeah. Again, especially at the end with the pandemic, whereas like, especially it was early pandemic. So they're literally like, all right, we're only going to put two of you together. Try to make magic. So I am appreciative of the TV series, personally. And yeah, it's more watching, I guess. But you would just go sit there and watch Winter Soldier again anyway. So why not watch?
Speaker: It does drive me crazy when I see people on Twitter saying like, oh, there's too much superhero stuff. I'm like, motherfucker, do you know what it was like for us when we were kids? I mean, we would have, we would have, you know, pushed our grandma down a flight of stairs to get this much content back. Do you remember the 2000s? It was so like, everybody's, oh, let's do a superhero movie. Here's Ghost Rider.
Speaker: Like, oh, here's the Watchmen, which I haven't watched in years, but I did like the Watchmen when I first saw it. You go way back to one of our early episodes. We talked about that, and I tore into that movie. Yeah, I mean, it's easy to do. Crazy to do. But there was way more misses than there were hits. Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: 2003 Hawk, which some people love. Some people hate it. Go back earlier, right? You know, remember like the mid -90s when we had Nick Fury and Generation X. Or almost had Roger Corman, Fantastic Four. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. We've come a long way. Or, you know, we had Vannon talking about Infinity War in the last episode. And he was talking about how he's like, you know, you know, back before the MCU, you know, we had like, you know, this really bad Thor and Hulk TV movie. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah, man. And it was like, when I see, yeah, when I see people complaining about there's too much, I'm like, just like, motherfucker, just shut up.
Speaker: So those are the two big takeaways. Mark Millard's drunk and, you know, just shut up. Shut up. Enjoy the MCU and shut up. Yeah. All right. But I see. I think that wraps up the first three episodes. Yeah. And we talked about Madripoor. Sharon Carter showed up. We're going to talk about her. We'll talk about her more in the next episode. Absolutely. Yeah. Because there's a lot of going with her and some interesting turns they took with her character. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. Uh, okay. Kel, you want to tell people where they can find you? Yeah. You can, um, follow me on Twitter at the hyphen B H Y P H E N. Um, all of anything I'm working on, always post on there. Um, I have a link tree link in there and it has like my YouTube channel videos I'm working on or any podcast I'm doing. I have two podcasts. I have a wrestling one called razzle cast power hour.
Speaker: And then my own podcast, Hyphen Nation, that comes out when I find time during the week. But there's like hundreds of episodes where you listen to. So you can go check that out or you can just go to hyphenuniverse .com and all the links are conveniently placed on the front page. OK, great. And as for for my stuff, I've got.
Speaker: You're listening to this now. I've got a science fiction serial, so if you're a Kindle Vella reader, I got that out now, it's called Courseraise. You can find out that, all other information about my writing at percivalconstantene .com. And for this show, superherocinephiles .com, SuperCinemapod on Twitter and Instagram, SuperheroCinephiles on Facebook.
Speaker: You know, like us, review us on Apple podcasts, anywhere you get your shows and. Yeah. And do five stars, even if you hate the show, get them stars. And on Spotify, you can do the five stars too. If you haven't abandoned it because of Joe Rogan. So that's your choice. He's trash. I'm going to throw that out there. I still use Spotify, but he's trash. Another hot take. Yes. All right. Mark Miller's drunk and, and Joe Rogan is trash.
Speaker: All right, that does it for us, and come back to the next episode where we're going to be talking about the latter half of Falcon and Winter Soldier. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll talk to you next time. Mr. Bradley, we got to do something. We got to tell somebody. No, leave me dead. My name is Barrett. But the world's different now. I know people. Man, that's why you're here.
Speaker: You think things are different. You think times are different. You think I wouldn't be dead in a day if you brought me out. You want to believe jail was my fault because you got that white man's shield. They were worried my story might get out. So they erased me, my history.
Speaker: But they've been doing that for 500 years. Pledge allegiance to that, my brother. They will never let a black man be Captain America. And even if they did, no self -respecting black man.
Speaker: Welcome to the Superhero Cinephiles Podcast. I'm your host, Perry Constantine, and we're continuing on from our last episode. Got Kellen Connelly back here in the chair, and we're ready to talk about episodes four through six of Falcon and Winter Soldier. Kell, how you doing? I'm great, man. How are you? I'm good. I'm good.
Speaker: got a chance to see that both my wife and daughter are going back to sleep. So there you go. Mine's getting ready to go to bed. So I completely can relate to that. Yeah. Yeah. She, she wakes me up at like seven in the morning and then, you know, as soon as I'm up and I can't go back to sleep, then she goes down for a nap.
Speaker: Of course. Yeah. Kids, what are you going to do? Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, so we're talking about the last three episodes of The Falcon and the Winter Soldier. I still can't believe this was only six episodes. I know. Yeah. The whole world is watching episode four. Episode five is truth. And episode six, one world, one people. So where do you want to start with these episodes? I think probably the first one is the big,
Speaker: Wakanda reveal in episode four, the big showdown with the Dora Milaje and the guys.
Speaker: Yeah. You mean the one that they lost? Yeah. Yeah. The unequivocally unequivocally lost that vitamin like Dormelage do not play at all. And obviously they were after Zemo because of the events of so war because they killed King Tachaka and they were Wakanda never forgets as we saw in Black Panther when they were going after claw.
Speaker: Um, and Claude stole that, uh, um, vibrating them years ago, but yet they're still like, uh, yeah, we're, we're coming for his ass. So, um, now it was very cool to see the Wakanda callback for Bucky. And I had mentioned this in the last episode, but having the fail safe in his arm, when he literally were able to take his arm away from him. I mean, obviously he's still Bucky, you know, when her soldier, he can still hold his own, but it's a little more difficult when you only have one arm and.
Speaker: Yeah, everybody just got their ass beat. Everybody lost in this one, man. One thing I loved about that is even Sebastian Stad looks surprised by the arm coming off. Oh yeah, because he had no clue. Yeah, that was the acting on his part though, because you know, all that's done in post -production, right? So for them to, like his reaction is so great in that moment.
Speaker: And that's just it's such a Wakanda thing to do to have this such a black man. That's that's from the comics I'm talking about. Like Black Panther in the comics totally has ways to like kill every single one of the superheroes. Yes. Yeah. He is always prepared for anything. He's not Batman level prepared. But I'd say he's probably I'd say he's more than Batman level prepared in some cases. He might be like if anybody has case studies on how to beat everybody, like you said, it would definitely be T 'Challa. Yes. I love that.
Speaker: I completely loved it and yeah I mean they came and handled their business and then they're like um yeah bring us Zemo or uh we're gonna come back and see you. They're like okay. It's also nice to see Io get some more development here and to have that connection established between her and Bucky because
Speaker: You don't really get the sense of how integrated Bucky was in Wakanda during that time because we just got because we see him, you know, at the end of Civil War, he had put in the ice and then we see him at the end of Black Panther being.
Speaker: you know, being woken, you know, appearing at the end there and then getting the army. Yeah, yeah. And we don't really get a sense of like, whether or not he was really integrated into into Wakanda society, but based on the interactions he has with IO and the stuff he says about his time in Wakanda, you get the sense that it was actually, you know, he actually spent a lot of time there and he was actually pretty, pretty integrated into their society.
Speaker: Yeah, and I would imagine that would be something that he wanted, especially once the brainwashing was gone. I mean, obviously, he's never truly had a home for years, because he's always been upon as the Winter Soldier. So having a place to call home and then being a place that's so built upon family as Wakanda, naturally, I could see, even though
Speaker: They thought that he had killed King Tachaka initially in Civil War, even with all of that bad blood that was there to see how Wakanda and the Black Panther were able to forgive all of that and really, one, help him escape the brainwashing, and then two,
Speaker: let's how much time do we know really passed between civil war and and obviously was um it was like a week in between the assassination attempt on a black panther so so honestly dang like let's say black panther takes place over like two like a month or so month and a half like they they kind of got him unbrainwashed pretty quickly and then civil war probably happens a few months later so he was there for a decent amount of time he wasn't there for like any five years or anything like that but actually i think probably what because
Speaker: The MCU movies, they tend to move in real time for the most part. So Black Panther came out, what, 2017, I think? Yeah. And then Infinity War came out in 2019. So that's a good two years he's spending there at least.
Speaker: Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah. So and I just can't see them again, especially with T 'Challa's message at the end of Black Panther about wanting to kind of open up the Wakanda to the world and, you know, kind of let it be known that who Wakanda is really instead of hiding all these years.
Speaker: I really can't see them, even if he is a colonizer, see them treating him any differently because, especially as black people around the world can attest to, because we've been treated differently throughout history. I can't see them treating him any different fictional character or not. Wakanda is like supposedly this technological, perfect society, country.
Speaker: and in that fashion it would only be right that they would just welcome them with open arms once they knew he was okay. I mean uh possibly but I think also there's another aspect because of the fact that they've been isolationists for so long they haven't really had any of that because I think you kind of see that with um
Speaker: Daniel Kaluuya's character in Black Panther when he talks about when he's like against bringing refugees into Wakanda. Oh yeah. So I think there's that as there's there's definitely a xenophobic element to Wakanda. It ain't perfect. It's supposed to be perfect. I think that's a it's a really interesting real world parallel because you know the type of society you're in is really going to dictate you know the way you're treated like you know
Speaker: America, I'm a white guy in America, I'm, you know, top of the pyramid, but, you know, I come to Japan and, you know, where it's like your token minority status here, it's like, you're like the model minority here, it's like, oh, look, you look so cute trying to speak Japanese.
Speaker: But, you know, but we're not going to give you a loan or anything like that. So so you get a lot of those issues here. And it's not the it's not a one to one comparison, obviously. But it's yeah. Interest. It definitely has a similar aspect. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely open my eyes to a lot of that stuff since moving here.
Speaker: I could see that my my best friend actually moved to New Zealand in late twenty nineteen and he's he's still adapting to how different things are there. It's just a constant constant thing to I mean, he's Indian, but he's still he's white. So he's like he's biracial. So here, like you said, he was white and got looked at one way and there he is literally a colonizer who came over from America and he lives in Wellington.
Speaker: And they don't treat him rudely, but at the same time, he's looked at differently. Yes, his wife's Asian on top of that. So I'm sure he catches a lot of stray looks that he doesn't deserve. Yeah. Yeah. And I love how just the whole thing with the Dormel, I was not expecting to get this much development of Bucky's time in Wakanda here. I thought there was
Speaker: Like you said, I didn't expect them to revisit that either. But now we kind of can talk about Bucky's development, like we did Sam's development, where again, he was always just, Bucky was a winter soldier, bad guy. Oh, I'm not a bad guy. I want to save Kat, but I am a bad guy and stuff. And then it's like, oh, I'm better. Oh, I lost my arm. I'm whipped out. So it was constantly, something was happening to Bucky. Bucky was never around for any of those character building moments because even though he had a whole movie named after him, he was a side character.
Speaker: He was always he was always in the background, the cap. So getting to see that he did have familiar, familiar relations with Dora Milaje was really cool. And then also to see how much respect and admiration he had for him, too, because he's he told Sam straight up. He's like, you know, we're done. Like we shouldn't mess around there here. Like, let's just do what they want. And Sam's like, no way. But he's like,
Speaker: Come on. You know, you know, T 'Challa. I don't think you want to go down this route. So. And really, I think one of the things that did really well, too, was it really kind of illustrated how
Speaker: how really lost Bucky is now because, you know, and I think that's something we kind of take for granted when we see him first in the therapist's office, right? And we see him talking about, and you see, he's got, and you see, he's trying to build a life here, but you get the sense that there's, there's something missing there. And then you realize when you, when you see him interacting with IO and when she forbids him from returning to Wakanda, there's,
Speaker: it really kind of clicked for me when I'm just like, Oh my God, this guy really has no place left. Like no place to go. Cause when he got out of the, when he's deprogramming everything, he's still got Steve at least.
Speaker: Now, Steve's gone. And so now he's got, like he says in Bucky to, no, he is Bucky, as he says to Sam in that episode, you know, that shield is the closest thing I have left to a family. And it's just like, it really puts that all into perspective, like how, like his visceral reaction to Sam giving up the shield. And it puts that all into the new context. And you realize that,
Speaker: You know, he's got, you know, he doesn't have cap. He's not technically an Avenger. And even if he is, you know, the Avengers aren't really a thing right now. We don't really know with them. You know.
Speaker: Sam's like the closest thing he has to a friend and they kind of hate each other. But he has like, he doesn't even have a home now because his only, the only home he's really known in the past, you know, 70 plus years has been Wakanda. Right. Because his old home, you know, Brooklyn, that's, you know, it's not, it's not the Brooklyn he grew up in. It's not the same Brooklyn, right? Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, man. That's a good point because I, yeah, I mean, she literally said, don't, don't come back to Wakanda. And again, he knows that they don't play around. Like she, she ain't say that jokingly. Yeah. So you can't just show up tomorrow. Like, Hey, here I am. You know, so he, he truly in a Captain America sense as a, as a man without a country, a man without a home, a nomad, if you would. So, so it's, um,
Speaker: It really is crazy that, again, just like Sam is struggling to kind of stand on his own two feet as Sam Wilson, Bucky is doing the same and struggling to find his own way in the world because there's no big fights to fight. I mean, obviously they're in the middle of something that they're trying to handle, but it's not like a Thanos level threat. There's just not any of these major things. They're literally,
Speaker: just trying to get through our day -to -day um prior to the events of the show and neither one of them are being very successful right now um so it shows how much that they truly need each other as much as they kind of hate the fact they need each other yeah i i loved um zemo's speech too about uh about the super soldiers and about that connection like you know you know having a super soldier means that
Speaker: you inherently think it's a supremacy ideology. And I put a whole new spin on, because it's no longer just revenge for Sokovia. It's going beyond that. It's like this whole worldview he has now. And I thought that was a really, really cool thing to do. And one of the little things here is, you know,
Speaker: they tell him, it's like, well, Steve wasn't like that. And Zemo doesn't push them back on it, right? He says, you're right, Steve wasn't like that, but how many Steve Rogers do you know? And I thought that was an interesting moment because it shows that Zemo's got some respect for Steve. And I thought that was really cool.
Speaker: That's the power of Steve Rogers, man, like comic books, MCU. At the end of the day, you can put anybody with the shield, John Walker, Sam Bucky, and Sam and Bucky and John Walker, Toms, try to be the best Captain America they could be.
Speaker: There was only one person chosen to be the, be the first person experimented on with the suit. Well, now we know of, um, with this, the, um, super soldier serum and it was Steve Rogers. And it wasn't because he was big, tough, strong guy in the movies. It was the one who uses brain. And he actually, he w he was all hurt.
Speaker: Like the man jumped on what he thought was a live grenade for a bunch of people who hated him. And the first Avenger man like that. And that was that was the moment that sealed it. Like all of them soldiers that he was in camp with hated his gut. So like you're too small other than Bucky. And I think Bucky was he wasn't even in the camp. No. Yeah. Yeah. But he was very good. Yeah.
Speaker: So the fact that Scrawny Steve Rogers from Brooklyn was willing to risk his whole life to save everyone else and cover up a live grenade. And nobody else did. Everybody else is ducked and covered. That is what made Steve Rogers Captain America. It wasn't the Super Soldier Serum. It was who Steve Rogers was at that moment.
Speaker: Well, I mean, I love that. And that's something that they keep going back to, right? Is something that what Erskine talked about in the first, in the first Avenger is he says that, you know, the serum amplifies what's already there, right? So bad becomes worse and good becomes better. And, and - Like we saw of Red Skull. Right, exactly. Yeah. And, and Lamar S echoes that too, right? He says that the super soldier serum, it makes you more of what you already are. And, and, um, and unfortunately we didn't get a whole lot
Speaker: of exposure to John to see like how he is really, we get a little bit at the end of the episode four when he kills the guy with Cap's shield. And by the way, like, I mean, how - Let's talk about it, man. Yeah, I mean, how, I remember watching that just being like, holy shit, this is on Disney Plus.
Speaker: Yeah, they spared no expense. Yeah, like obviously by this time, John took the serum because there was a couple vials that was floating around there and he ended up taking it. And you can see the immediate difference because he's tossing everybody around, Bucky, Sam, and I mean, Bucky supposedly, does Bucky have super soldier serum?
Speaker: Yeah, he's got a variant of it. Yeah, he's got a variant of it. And then, of course, he has a water soldier training. So and military training. So but he's throwing Bucky around like a rag doll and immediately like it triggered the worst emotions in John and John.
Speaker: and like he he just went off man and like you you could the cinematography was perfect you just see the blonde rage and that shield just coming down it's like yo yo is he gonna stop and we we knew he wouldn't go stop before a casual viewer they're probably like oh he's gonna stop he's gonna stop and it just kept going it was just it was
Speaker: easily one of the most brutal scenes in MCU movies or TV. And it was done in a way to obviously show this guy shouldn't be Captain America, which is the gist they were going for. But it also showed again, just how dangerous again, great power comes with great responsibility.
Speaker: When when you don't accept the responsibility. And in that moment john did not bad things can happen. And just shows that, again, it's so hard. You can be Captain America and be called Captain America and go look at good morning America is Captain America.
Speaker: but you're not Captain America, even with the Super Soldier formula. So yeah, like that, this might be, I really liked the episode that introduced Isaiah Bradley, but this episode is probably my favorite of the entire show. I was heartbroken over what happened to Lamar, man, because clearly it wasn't meant to go down like that.
Speaker: um but obviously John seeing red that's his best friend I mean who's to say that cap if he had saw Bucky murdered in the same way wouldn't have been pushed that same break because again they always there's always an old adage of with super villains they always had one bad day and that one bad day pushed them too far uh this is John's one bad day and this is this is where he ended up um but who knows if
Speaker: Steve Rogers has one bad day if he doesn't end up in a similar place where he's standing over a body with blood all over his shield. We like to think he does it, but you don't know. I think we do see it. I think and that's kind of the contrast because we did see what happened because remember in First Avenger, he thought Bucky died.
Speaker: Yeah. And so we do see that to an extent. And I think that shows the contrast between Steve and John really well in a way without actually having to take it out on immediately, though. Yeah, it was the only thing like if Steve had a warm body, the bride just beat the crap out of. We don't know what could happen. Steve, Steve, obviously he saw him go over. The train blew up. So they had to get out of there anyway.
Speaker: So we don't, and then he went back and kind of dealt with his feelings the best he could. And he couldn't even get drunk by that point. So it's all about circumstances, man. Yeah, but I think it does show that that different and just like that image of the shield covered in blood like that. And it's just, and that's horrific scene. Yeah, it's that's a scene we've seen so many times in the comic books. But yeah, to see it in live action like that. And in that context, like it's
Speaker: And I think that did a really good job of illustrating why this guy cannot be Captain America. Yeah. They used that a lot during the comic books of a war, like when Cap died with the blood covered shield and everything. So it was definitely imagery we were used to.
Speaker: And even still, even with being used to that, I was surprised by how shocking it was to me. They went for it, man. Yeah. And all credit, too, to Wyatt Russell for really selling that rage. The guy was so good at being a jackass and being in this show that
Speaker: Motherfuckers were giving them death threats. Of course, because that's what we do when we think that you're a bad person at TV show. Obviously, you're a bad person in real life, which is crazy to me. OK, like I'm still I'm sure there's still actors out there who get unfriendly emails about a portrayal that they were in a movie because people just can't separate life from from fiction.
Speaker: Well, did you ever see how I met your mother? Oh, yeah. You remember William Zapka's appearances and he talks about how, like, you know, everyone just like throwing popcorn at him everywhere. Yes. And like even his mom, when she calls him, she's like, oh, that's exactly what it is. Yeah. Yeah. I like to think of that as a spiritual as the reason we have Cobra Kai. I think the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, this would never happen if Barney didn't take Johnny side in the first place. It's like, maybe we should tell Johnny side of it.
Speaker: But, and then there's the dishonorable or the other than honorable discharge scene when he gets chewed out by the Senator and all that. And I think one of the best parts of that is when John says to them, you built me, right? I'm exactly what you made me to be. And now you're punishing me because I'm doing what you made me to do. Right out of the comic books. Yeah, not only right out of the comic books, but so realistic because that's what the US government has done, right? It's like,
Speaker: And it's way more compelling than anyone thought it would be.
Speaker: we, you know, we build these people up to, and then, you know, when you have things like, you know, the me line massacre in Vietnam or, you know, or Abu Ghraib and we're like, Oh, we're horrified. We, this should never have happened. We don't know how this happens. Like, well, you, you fucking dehumanize. You put them in the position. You, you, you dehumanize the enemy. What do you think's going to happen? Yeah, we didn't think all that would happen though. But, but again,
Speaker: It's that what was that that quote that you said earlier about the dick swinging. Oh, yeah. Adolescent exercise is dick waving. Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly what the U .S. tends to do. They're like, they're always dick waving. And then when a dick gets waved too far, they're like, oh, oh, oh. We didn't want that. We didn't mean to wave it that far. God, like you think we're monsters, huh? Yeah, a little bit. You guys are the bad guys.
Speaker: Something I wanted to ask you about that bothered me on the show, Perry. Did Sam's empathy for Carly seem... I know it was important for him to sympathize with her cause, obviously, and the Flag Smashers as a whole.
Speaker: I really felt like at no point, even in the season finale, I was like, yo, he doesn't have what it takes to take her down. Like he can't bring himself to do it. Did that bother you at all? Because I saw it didn't really bother me too much. It was more along the lines of at some point, you've got to draw lines like, OK, you've went so far. I got to stop you. And I never felt like Sam got to that point. And there was a lot of venom for
Speaker: Venom for Sam on the internet, just about how he was shooting Carly as well. And even Bucky mentioned it to him a little bit in the show. It was like, Hey, you know, that she's the real, we got to stop her and everything. And Sam's like, yeah, but I got to, I got to talk to her. I got to reach her. Did you think they kind of went a little too far with Sam constantly trying to kind of change her mind and kind of, and kind of make her realize that what she's doing is wrong or did you feel like it was the right amount?
Speaker: No, I think I think you're definitely right. I think they did push that too much. And this could be another example of it being a victim to the changes in the scripts due to COVID -19 and everything in the pandemic. And I think that might have been a factor in it, but it definitely felt like at some point, like you said, you got to draw a line because I think even at, you know,
Speaker: When she's threatening your sister and your nephews, I mean, that's kind of got to be a line in the sand you draw there. I mean, at that point, I think Sam should have been like, all right, you know, I you have you have a point, but I got to bust your ass at some point now. Yeah, I think they they definitely push that too far. So, yeah.
Speaker: that that was the one thing about Sam's portrayal was just like come on man like like the words the part where you're like i'm ready to go kick butt and it like we got the part where he's like i'm ready to go be cap and it was like he's like i am a black man as captain american i hope you can respect me but his speech was way better than that but um those are important but at the same time it's like you need to be able to
Speaker: you know the line ends here and put that foot in the sand and really push back against against the opposition and and he didn't really get that moment to shine um especially against Carly as the main antagonist. Yeah yeah yeah I felt I mean Carly in general I felt she was
Speaker: she was handled kind of unevenly. And I think that she's, and again, that could be, you know, a victim of the writing and the changes, but you know, I thought, you know, it starts off, she's got a good point, but then I think the show keeps trying to paint her as too sympathetic even after the show has kind of made her out to be beyond the point of sympathy. Like, I mean, I think,
Speaker: For example, if you draw comparison in some of the other characters that we've got, Symphony 4 like Zemo in Civil War or Zemo in the show even, or Thanos in Infinity War or Killmonger in Black Panther.
Speaker: Each time, you can understand their point, but the movie still says, like, okay, here's the line, and here's the point when they cross the line. And once they cross that line, then you're like, okay, yeah, I mean, they got a point, but I still wanna see you get your ass kicked. The show, though, with Carly, it seems like it goes,
Speaker: You know what? Here's the line. Here she is, but the show's still trying to convince us that we're over here. It's like the show's not caught up to her actions. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that because I wasn't like crazy. Like, Oh my God, Sam, like I can't believe you. But at the same time, I was like, I just wanted him to put his foot down. He never did. Yeah. He was like, he was upset that parents like, all right, you stopped that down.
Speaker: All right, I made it this last time. One more time. And she just kept doing it and doing it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, that was definitely, especially when you compare it to like how he treats, how he treats Zemo, how he treats, you know, John, I think there's a lot more, it's a lot, he's a lot harsher. He's a lot more judgmental of those actions, but less about Carly. And I thought that was a very, that was a huge disconnect in the series.
Speaker: Yeah. And I don't know if it, like maybe he kind of saw her as, especially cause he has the nephew and everything, like maybe saw her as some, because she was so young that there was still time to maybe kind of save her. But it just didn't come across the way I think they wanted to. I think so too. Let's talk about Sharon Carter.
Speaker: Because, I mean, this is, I thought it was so cool to get to finally see her have like, you know, a role with with some weight to it because we hear it, you know, she gets that little bit in, you know, Winter Soldier, you know, she gets a little bit in Civil War but stills caps speech. Yeah, stills caps speech.
Speaker: And then they, and, you know, they were kind of, it seemed like they were kind of trying to lead up to something between them, like in the comics, but, you know, the Peggy fan base is too strong with the movies. And so they had to go back to Peggy in the, and then, yeah.
Speaker: They went back to Peggy. Literally. I really don't want to think about that timeline beyond him getting to go back and have that dance. So let's just leave it over there. Sharon kicks a ton of ass though, man. Obviously, they found her in Madripoor.
Speaker: She's already mad. She's like, I can't go back to my country. This is BS. I helped Steve and nobody's letting me in. I got no contacts. She's super mad. And I was like, yes. I'm glad that we're seeing this kind of fall out from, again, from the Sokovia Accords, because obviously we know that Tony and Cap weren't talking and they went their separate ways. And then Thanos showed up. Everybody had to kind of make up as the action was unfolding.
Speaker: But just just like with the blip, there is an important time frame that we're missing with a lot of these characters. Like Sam was on the run with Cap, obviously. Bucky was in Wakanda and we're seeing shades of that. So there's whenever they do a season two, there's still a whole whole bunch of stuff they can explore with those time those time frames with Bucky and and Sam.
Speaker: But to really see Sharon, who was literally the odd man out, especially once all the superheroes showed up in Civil War. And she was like an afterthought after that. She literally to say, like, I can't go home. I'm a traitor and I need your help. But then it was Sam that offered, hey, I can I can get you pardoned or something.
Speaker: Like my man can't even get a loan. How's he going? Yeah. I always got to have like, like, Sam, aren't you kind of overselling your, your influence? Yeah. Like, like even like roadies in the military is still like maybe roadie could call in a favor or something, but he, he was really sounded like he, like he was already captain America and he was on favor or something, but he's like, we'll get your pardon. Just help us out. And, and.
Speaker: Sharon never bought into this chick for a second. She was like, okay, yeah, I'll help. But it was more out of a thing for, more out of respect for Cap than it was, I actually think you guys can help me as we saw down the line. But yeah, I really loved everything that Sharon did in this series. And I can't really say much, like the end reveal that we're gonna talk about here in a little bit.
Speaker: Um, I didn't hate it. I didn't like it. I was just kind of like, man, I saw it coming. But I really enjoyed her character development that we got in episodes leading up to this finale.
Speaker: Well, let's go ahead and talk about it now. Cause I mean, let's talk about it now. So like my love was, I mean, the first time I watched it, I think I had kind of the same thought as you. I'm like, yeah, kind of, kind of make sense. I see all the comments. Not sure I really like it. Second time though, I thought it made a lot more sense. I thought it, I thought it, it, when I get, when I divorce it from what we know from the comics, I thought it actually worked really well because it's that whole idea of,
Speaker: I mean, it totally makes sense because, you know, I don't, they never mentioned it. I don't think she was, they ever mentioned if she was part of the blip or not. I think she was still, but - Yeah, I think she was around. Yeah. Cause everybody who got blipped are like, Oh, I wasn't here for five years. They're making a point to kind of mention it. Yeah. So like, you gotta, you gotta look at it from her perspective. Like she, she puts her ass on the line to help, to help Steve and Sam.
Speaker: you know, how far can a person be pushed? Like you were saying that one bad day thing.
Speaker: And then, you know, she gets she loses her job. She becomes a traitor to her country. She's got to run away to Madripoor. And she's got to, you know, build a new life for herself on the black market, basically. And she does really well for herself. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I, um, I felt like a Shang -Chi's sister. I can't think of her name off the top of my head. I feel like she took a lot of her cues. Yeah. Thank you. She took a lot of her cues from Sharon Carter, because I mean, when you get introduced to her, she's in charge of the
Speaker: the fight ring and everything. And then obviously we know what happens at the stinger in the Shang -Chi. So I definitely felt big Sharon Carter vibes from the way that she was taking care of herself. Yeah. And the way she was portrayed.
Speaker: And I thought it did make a whole lot of sense because the entire time when, you know, Sam's talking to her like, I can get you a party and you can go back home. And she's like, oh, you think you can, you can help me go back home. And I'm, as I was watching that the first time, I'm like, wait a minute. They didn't say well enough. I think that, I think that's the, I think that's how it works in a way. It kind of works, I think, because the first time I'm watching, I'm like, you know, she's got this,
Speaker: you know, she's rich, she's got this really nice, you know, penthouse apartment with like his resources, freaking art gallery. She's got all these resources and all that. And like, she need to go home. Yeah. Why does she need to go home? I mean, like, you know, go to a place where I'm going to have health care and you can't get a loan to the banks. Right. And I'm like, and thinking to myself, when I'm like, why would you want to give all that up to go back to what she used to be doing? And then when he get to the end there,
Speaker: And, you know, she does that thing where she gets on the phone and she says, you know, no more super soldiers, but I've got access to a lot more stuff. It totally makes sense because, you know, she got sold out by her country. After the blip, you know,
Speaker: Steve was back in New York. Steve went back to the vendor's compound. He wasn't on the run anymore. And he wasn't trying to find her. He never came back for that. That's a great point. That's a, that's a whole other thing that can be, um, can, they can do with her the next season too. I don't think they're going to do another season. Cause they said they're going to do a Captain America four. Oh, okay. Well that would make sense. But yeah, but I would love to see like, I mean, you know what I want to see? Like my dream MCU project would be like an animated series or something.
Speaker: or comic series or whatever, set between two eras. One, the time between Civil War and Infinity War, and another one is in the time between Infinity War and Endgame. I think those are two vastly unexplored areas with a whole lot of time. A lot of stuff can happen in there, especially in the case of the five -year gap in Endgame.
Speaker: And just like, you know, and there's so much story potential. Like, you know, we know that the Avengers are obviously still active because we see them, you know, Black Widow's calling the place and everything from the compound and everything. So we know they're still doing stuff. So, you know, and that's that's such a rich area for exploration. I would love to see what other stuff had happened in that time.
Speaker: Yeah. And we know from what if that they're fully capable of doing it. Yeah. Like, and just give me 10 episodes and set it in different eras and just tell the story. And the voice actors obviously will come back. They came back for what if. I mean, Chadwick Boseman's last times as T 'Challa was, I'm doing what if. Yeah. And he was like in two episodes was just crazy. So it'd be a very easy thing to do. And there's a vast array of stories that need to be told.
Speaker: that can be built upon or just stand alone on their own. It's a wealth of unexplored territory. Yeah, so I think it makes a whole lot of sense for her to become the power broker and then to still commit to being betraying her country because her country kind of betrayed her first. So this is kind of like her getting back.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Like, like I said, I wish they weren't so obvious when they first, they first brought it on because they were talking about the power broker, power broker, power broker. Like, like, come on. Like, we know, we know. And I'm glad that they didn't go for the reveal immediately because then we know there's that they're traveling with the power broker. Yeah.
Speaker: And I kind of wish I was just more surprised at what had happened. But like you said, in the grand scheme of everything, especially with what happened to Sharon Carter in between those two time periods, why not be the power broker? Yeah, yeah, I think I make it. I didn't like it at first, but on the repeat view, it definitely makes a whole lot of sense to me. And I'm looking forward to seeing where it goes from here.
Speaker: because I think it opens up a lot of interesting story potential. And it gives Sharon something to do because, you know, obviously she can't be Cap's girlfriend now, so they got to find something else for her to do. And I think, and I like that they're just not dropping her, that they're finding something for her to do. Yeah, which is, which I agree because, I mean, who thought we ever see her again after some of this? Yeah, yeah. And Emily Van Camp, like, she definitely deserves more time in this than what she's gotten so far.
Speaker: Um, and also got to talk about, um, one of my favorite appearances in this show was Julia Louis Dreyfus popping up as the Contessa. I just like, Oh man. Talk about a, uh, talk about a real surprise, man.
Speaker: That that was absolutely amazing. And like, obviously, she's going to go on to be a part of MCU. She's already been Black Widow. So they're going to continue to go back to that. Well, like, I don't know if she'll ever have to be like full blown red carpet out in this movie, like, especially in the contest of role. But her role, again, just like the power broker, there's so many possibilities they can get upon. So much they can do with her.
Speaker: Well, and she's just got like such the perfect entrance in this show. Like just the way she appears, the way she starts talking, the way she hands on the business card that has nothing written on it.
Speaker: Yeah, and everybody thinks she's a hot mess is the crazy part when you first meet her, but she's pretty connected. And we're obviously each appearance, we're learning more and more about what she has going on. So yeah, I love the casting choice. I've always loved Julia Louis, especially from the Seinfeld days, obviously, and her work on VP. So yeah, I look forward to seeing more from her, man.
Speaker: I'm glad to see, not that MCU's ever had a star power problem, but it's nice to see those really established actors that we know really well coming into MCU and getting in the sandbox and having fun with their characters. I mean, I think after Robert Redford appeared as a villain, like after that, you know, all bets are off. It's just like, you know what, they can get Robert Redford and it's like there's like nobody they can't get now.
Speaker: That was a pretty big get at the time. I forget how big of a deal because I've seen Winter Soldier, like I can close my eyes and watch it. So it's no big deal to see him now. But in that moment, I knew he was already cast in the movie. But to see him and then eventually for him to be the bad guy, I was like, oh, my God, this is incredible. Yeah. And.
Speaker: Uh, you know, uh, I thought the, the last episode I felt was really kind of the weakest of the bunch. I mean, it was like most affected by COVID had to be. Yeah. Yeah. Cause it felt like there was, there was too much story left and they, they just kind of like had to wrap it up kind of quickly. And I felt that a lot of stuff kind of got thrown under the bus because of that.
Speaker: Yeah. Um, I mean, let, let's just talk about real quick that, uh, the power broker killed Batroc and just as much as we are happy to see him, he was gone again. Yeah. I was disappointed by that. I'm just like, yeah. I'm like, yeah, Batroc is back. We're going to see more Batroc and he's down.
Speaker: Oh, and never mind. Yeah. Obviously, the super powered Plagsmashers, they all got easily disposed of by Zemo's Butler, who which is which is a nice callback, because we got introduced to him after he broke out of prison. We didn't even talk about the fact that they broke him out of prison. Yeah. Well, that was such a great scene when when Bucky's going over the potential plan to break Zemo out of prison.
Speaker: Yes. And then you find out he's just recounting what he's already done. Yeah, it's all done. It seems like. Pretty much, you know. Yeah, that was a great scene. I rewatched that when I first watched it. I actually went back and watched it again because I was I was definitely pumped for how that worked out. I love a good prison break. I'm a sucker for one of those.
Speaker: Um, but yeah, we got to use the Butler in that episode. Um, and when he's like, I'm a Baron, and then he's the one that actually takes out the super soldiers. And then of course, um, Sam, who had been training with the shield after he took it off of, um, John, after John killed, um, killed the flag smasher, um, RIP, man, that was a brutal way to go.
Speaker: Well, something else, too, about that flagship is that was the guy who also said that, you know, when I was a kid, Captain America was my favorite superhero. Yes, that made it even more crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cap was my favorite. And in the first last moments to be that damn she'll just crush me. Oh, yeah. Great, great storytelling, Marvel. Yeah. Yeah. The Butler, though, I also this is going back to what we talked about last episode. But I do love that that part when
Speaker: They're on Zemo's plane and Zemo's talking to the butler in Sokovian or whatever and he says, you know, see if there's any expired, any meat back there if it's past the expiration date give it to them. Right he's always he's always trying to find a way to do him dirty on the side like without completely betraying them. Yeah, because for the most part, Zemo held up his end of the bargain.
Speaker: Um, even, even like up to the door, Milaje taken him like he, he didn't like we all was expecting him to turn on him at some point. Um, and he just, he never did. And obviously we're, we're probably hoping this leads in the thunderbolts bowl to some point.
Speaker: but it was very cool to see him honor the contract he made and not just do the supervillain thing and be like, haha, I got you. Why are you stupid? You're too stupid to trust me. So I did appreciate that about his character as well. Yeah, it harkens back to something Bucky said earlier, right? When he said, you know, Zemo's got a code. And I like that they stuck with that. They maintain that. Yeah, Zemo's, you know, he made a deal. He's going to honor the deal.
Speaker: And I hope that was really, really good work on Marvel for doing that. Instead of going the obvious route of just having Zemo betray them. Yeah, which has been done to death obviously. Yeah. What do you think about Isaiah's speech to Sam when he says that, you know, they'll never let a black man be Captain America and no self -respecting black man would ever be Captain America anyway?
Speaker: That's some real shit, Perry. I mean, it hit home, man, because again, this is fresh off the events of the summer 2020 and the Black Lives Matter movement and the riots and everything. So it was still fairly fresh in my mind and America's mind.
Speaker: And with those events in mind for Isaiah to say that to Sam, especially after Sam's like, I got the shield and I'm training and Sam's like, I think I'm going to do it. Like this, the next move. And then, and Isaiah's like, look, Negro.
Speaker: You can train all you want. You can wear whatever suit they want you to. But you're never going to be black, black America. You're never going to be Captain America, Black, Black in America, Captain America to them. And you and no self -respecting black man should be Captain America. That that kind of taps into the whole Kaepernick argument of it all, because obviously the reason Kaepernick started taking a knee was to protest the way that police brutality against black people in America.
Speaker: And obviously I turned into a big thing. He lost his job. He's not an NFL and now he makes Netflix money. So who did it really work out? I'm sure it did. But, um, that, that was just something when he started those protests and myself or other people really took a look at it and got beyond, uh, it's disrespectful to the flag and just really looked at it as, damn, he's kind of right. Like him as an athlete,
Speaker: all these athletes around the world, all these black people in the country who go to work every day for these corporate places and supposedly they're part of American infrastructure and their representatives flag or they stand for national anthem and supposed to be honoring the soldiers who died for them, which I 100 % agree with. Obviously, I respect any soldier who went to war for American for me or your rights as Americans or as ex -patriots as you are.
Speaker: But I completely get that. But when you break it down to the basics of, does my country love me because of the color of my skin? And the answer is no, then yeah, it's really hard to get behind the flag.
Speaker: And then to be wearing the symbol of America and literally be the same guy who was selling war bonds prior to going to break Bucky out of the hydro camp to be that guy on top of that guy, previous guy being so beloved and so air quotes perfect.
Speaker: It's an impossible task because America won't ever respect you. They might be like, oh, there goes Captain America. But. Like on the street, like they see they see Sam and like, hey, hey, Cap, how are you? And say, oh, good, you know, just having a conversation. And then they go home, they sit down at our dinner table and they say, guess who I saw on a black Captain America. Yeah, there's always that asterisk. Right. He's not he's not cap. He's he's black Captain America.
Speaker: So I definitely see Isaiah's point. Obviously, the show would have been a little anti -climatic if Sam was like, yeah, you know, you're right. Let me go out here as Falcon. So I mean, it would defeat the purpose of putting him in the role of Cap, but it hit close to home, way too close to home pair. Yeah, I thought that was
Speaker: Uh, I thought Sam's counter argument to that where, you know, he's, he acknowledges, and this kind of touches a lot of what you're saying, where he, like, he acknowledges everything Isaiah saying it's true. But at the same time, he says, look, you know, we built this country and, you know, and, you know, and I'm not just going to sit down and, and, you know, let them dictate it. And, you know, I'm going to.
Speaker: You know, I hope, you know, my ancestors help build this country, you know, I know what people have gone through. I'm from the, I thought that was too an interesting change that they made Sam come from the South and the MCU, whereas in the comics he's from Harlem. I thought that was a really interesting change they made and that really kind of ties into a lot of this stuff too because, you know,
Speaker: My impression is, obviously, because I'm not a black man in New York, or I'm not a black man in the South, but my impression is - Not black, you guys. Yeah. FYI. Could not be whiter if I tried. But I'd imagine it's a very different kind of upbringing where if you grow up in Harlem, in New York, versus if you grow up in the South.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, it's two different worlds. And myself, I was born in Virginia. I was raised in West Virginia. So I had a very different black experience because I even though I was surrounded by white people, I actually had had a pretty good childhood where I didn't have to deal with a lot of racism, even though I was literally one only a few black kids in my county and in my area for years and years.
Speaker: So it definitely changes things to know that Sam is from the South and he knows all the history that has come before him and all the awful things that have happened and he's reminded of it every single day living in the South because I'm sure it's not hard for him to look up and see a Confederate flag.
Speaker: Um, compared to somebody who might be like Harlem Sam, because if I remember Harlem Sam, when he's first introduced, he was, it was like seventies. And so he was like, he's like, Hey man, Cap, your job, Turkey, man, man, this, this, this is, uh, man, this is funky, fresh cap, blah, blah, blah. What you going to do for, for, for the homies around the way? Except he didn't say homies as a brothers around the way cap and caps is like, uh, you know, cause it was a, um, I don't, I forget to introduce. I think it was, I think it was Engelhardt.
Speaker: Okay, so you got angle hard introducing this black character and trying to make him sound hip at the same time to the slang of the time so it reads very awkward in 2022. But even if he was a guy from Harlem, like his experiences in Harlem.
Speaker: wouldn't necessarily speak to the experiences that he would have as someone from the South, because he'd be from New York, and I'm sure he would run into some bad cops and stuff, but New York is still from the North, and while racism is obviously still prevalent everywhere, it just is, it hits different up North than it does in the South. And for, and Isaiah's from Baltimore, for example, so that again, Baltimore is one of those
Speaker: Baltimore was in the North, right? That's about the Mason -Dixon, yeah. So again, that is, they're from a free area, a free state at the time of the Civil War, the original Civil War, not the Congo Civil War. So people from Baltimore who were raised that way, they have different experiences and they feel a certain kind of way. So for, obviously, Isaiah is speaking to the horrors that he went through from the Super Soldier program and the way he was treated.
Speaker: And then obviously he just sees how he takes his experiences and he just sees how Black people are treating the country altogether. So yeah, he never had the chance to be responsible for his power. Sam does have that opportunity. And again,
Speaker: It comes back to the great part of the responsibility. Yeah, Sam could be like, you know what? You're absolutely right. I'm crazy for thinking this. I'm going to do what I can. But Sam's like, no, I was given this shield by my best friend and he didn't look at me and say, hey, black guy, take this shield and see what happens. He was like, you're my best friend. You've been there for me for years. I love you, respect you. And I want to give you the shield because I feel like you will stand up for what the beliefs behind this shield.
Speaker: and and so he gave it to him and obviously he thought he wasn't ready but now at this point he feels like he's ready to take on whatever may come at him whether it be that truck or racism in that costume as identity of Captain Captain America so it's just all about perspective man and who's to say Isaiah wouldn't have done the same if if the roles are reversed yeah
Speaker: And that that whole conversation is echoed very, very well in that in that training scene with with Bucky when they're throwing the shield around and Bucky says to him, you know, like, you know, when Steve told me his plan, I don't think either of us realize what it means for a black man to hold this shield. Yeah. And I think that's.
Speaker: I thought that was such a powerful moment of realization, because he's been busting Sam's ass this entire time about this shield. And that line, you know, Sam says, you know, the legacy of that shield is complicated. And like, when I saw that in the trailer, I'm like, oh, they're gonna talk about the truth. They're gonna do, they're gonna go, I saw that coming, but seeing it in context, it really makes it, after hearing Isaiah's speech, it makes it so much more poignant.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. And who knows how much Steve and Bucky deliberated over it? It might have been like, just, hey, man, like, I got to take these stones back tomorrow. I think I'm going to go find Peggy when I take back this last one. And I'm going to stay with her. He's like, damn, Kat, that's deep. What are you going to do with the shield?
Speaker: Oh, well, you know, I think I'm going to give it to Sam and like, I feel like I don't know what conversation like, I don't want to put it on you. It's a lot of responsibility. I really feel like Sam could be the next Captain America. And if I want to pick my successor, I want to be Sam and like, all right, cool, Captain.
Speaker: That was right. It was probably like a footnote. I don't even think Bucky would have fought Steve on that, especially because of the relationship they had and the respect they have for one another. Like, after Steve became Cap, they were always like friends and, you know, the camaraderie was there. But you don't see Bucky busting Cap's chops like that. Like, he'll try. At the same time, it's kind of hard because he's freaking Adonis. Yes. So,
Speaker: I feel like, especially after he saved his life and got him out of the camp away from Hydra, like it was kind of like whatever you say goes, Steve, like I'll follow you anywhere, even if it leads to my death, which we thought it did. So I don't even think he questioned it for a second. And then to see Sam's journey throughout the series and then especially with him giving it up and he's like, dude, like he picked you and like you're supposed to be the one.
Speaker: He was like Morpheus. He's like, you're the one. Like, what are you talking about? You're not the one. Resurrections aside. But yeah, and then obviously, like, I'm sure Sam talked to him about Isaiah. I know he mentioned him, like, in passing conversations, but
Speaker: Um, just even off camera, like I'm sure Sam said, yo, I want to go see, uh, see Isaiah who, um, Bucky would know about. And Isaiah told me all this stuff that happened to him when he was in his open and that the country did to him and everything. And then Bucky's like, oh yeah, we, we didn't really think about all that. We just thought you were cool. We just thought you were a good pick, man. Like, uh, sorry, we didn't think about everything else that goes with it, but we are two white guys from Brooklyn. Yeah.
Speaker: And, and to something else too I that keeps think that I keep thinking about too is the fact that the, I think a lot of people overlook, is that that's not the same shield, because that shield got busted up by Thanos. Right. Tony gave them. Oh, wait, no, you're right. That's a different shield. Because because Tony gave them good when
Speaker: when everybody what like a lot of people their misconception of endgame is that he goes back into the past and he lives with Peggy in the main timeline and just never does anything and never interacts with the world but I think what actually happened is he goes in a creates another timeline there's this whole other timeline and talking about you know dream projects the MCU like I'm going to see that timeline where Cap and Peggy are starting shooting together and
Speaker: And then when he and he's got a shield on film, one more film, because you look at that shield and the design is slightly different. You're right. You're right. And I've thought about that before, too. But it's just so easily easy to gloss over the fact that Thanos literally beat that thing to bits. And Steve's arm was literally dangling. Yeah. When when he's like Avengers assembled and like we have that when the movie theaters across the country exploded and cheering and everything. Definitely not the same shield.
Speaker: Where did that shield come from? That's a great question. And I don't want some fighty answer. I want to see it. Show me how Cap got Bucky or Sam's shield. Show me. And then the last episode, one of the things I think was talking about things that were rushed through. I think one of the things that really got rushed through was
Speaker: um john's kind of like redemption in a way right because it's like he's you know he kills this guy with the fucking shield he gets discharged and and sam and bucky are like and then he pops up at the end and you know hey guys yeah it's just like you know he's he's patting bucky on the back and bucky's you know joking with him about using the lincoln quote and i'm like i'm like
Speaker: Come on, man. Like you were just talking, you just spent like, you know, five episodes talking about how this guy is such an asshole and, you know, he doesn't deserve the shield. And now he helps you out one time and you're best friends. Like you didn't even give Sam that much, that much better than the doubt. It's like, hey, you look like my buddy Cat.
Speaker: He is pretty old. Maybe he thought for a second he was Steve. I know with that face, how could you get him confused? I didn't love that either. I know they wanted to kind of sit the redemption arc. They wanted to get him on that path, especially going forward into the next project and really use them on and get them into the US -Asia uniform that the Contessa gives them.
Speaker: And I thought for a second, I did think for a second, I was like, all right, they're going to go to route him redeeming himself and he's going to get killed. Like I thought for like, cause they, they kind of hinted towards, towards that being like, I think one point there was where his life was on the line and then he managed to survive it or something. I forget. Um, but I think they decided not to do that. And then of course they, they wanted to set up the U S agent. So.
Speaker: It was cool to kind of see him be redeemed, but at the same time, it's like, dude, you should be facing some serious consequences. You should be walking these streets so easily, military or not. Like, I mean, at the very least, I mean, I'd expect like after they they finished busting up the flags, masters like Bucky, like, you know, you know, punches him in the face or something. Yeah. Hit him like hit him like Hawk did Thor, man. It's like, yeah.
Speaker: See, I thought that was kind of a missed opportunity. And I do like that they gave them the US agent costume in this episode though. I thought that was a nice little touch at the end.
Speaker: Very cool, very cool. Cause I've always loved that costume ever since Steve Rogers was the captain and he wasn't my costume. So I'm glad that they did. And the MCU does such a good job with making the costumes true to their originals. So I was really glad to see that they got, they nailed that costume completely. So speaking of costumes, what'd you think of how they adapted Sam's costume, Captain America costume?
Speaker: Um, I never loved Sam's comic iteration of it. I know that he was still, I mean, it was still kind of based on the Falcon uniform, just with caps, colors and stuff. And then putting the star on it. Um, I'd like his MCU uniform though. I think, especially because one is, it's Wakandan too. So shout out to Wakanda, but.
Speaker: I actually really do like his costume. I feel like there's room for them to do different variations on it, which obviously they're going to do for toy purposes, because that's what they do with all the costumes. But I really thought it came across well on the screen. And that first time when he came to that window and he stood up that shield, man, I just couldn't help it, man. I got chills. I was like, Sam's Captain America, man. So it worked for me on all facets.
Speaker: I thought it was, I thought, I like the design of it. I did feel like it, it, it felt like it was, it didn't quite fit Anthony Mackie right. Like, I think they do some alterations to it. Cause like in some of those, in some of those wide poses, it looks a little bit like Puffy in some parts.
Speaker: And so I think, you know, they're gonna have to redo that when they get ready for the fourth movie. But other than that, I like the design. One of the things I, because I'm rereading the Nick Spencer, Sam Wilson, Captain America series now. And one of the things I noticed is I was, you know,
Speaker: I watch this last episode right before I, you know, jump back into the series is that in the comics, his wings are just, you know, still the red wings that they are. They were. It was falcon here. They give it the red, white and blue color scheme, which I thought was a really nice touch.
Speaker: I thought that was very cool too. I thought it came off a little better, especially with him really embracing the personification of cap and being the face of America, even if America doesn't want them. I really liked the fact that they went all in like that to showcase that he's really doing this.
Speaker: Well, also, I like, too, that they gave him a more comics -accurate costume as the Falcon, too. Because up until now, he's just been wearing, like, the black military thing, which has some red stripes on it. But now they just put him in the white and red suit. I really like that look, too. Yeah, that just looked great, I thought. Like, any time that he really got to put the wings out and really kind of showcased the whole costume, he really just looked badass in it, I thought.
Speaker: Yeah. And same thing with what the little change they made to Bucky, how they kind of blended the Winter Soldier look with the Bucky costume from First Avenger.
Speaker: Yeah, that was a nice subtle nod as well, because because Bucky Bucky don't need no stinking costume. But if you're if you're going to give him some kind of uniform, then I think that's the way to go. Yeah. Well, I did love what you said back, you know, earlier, you said, like, you know, I because I know they're they're going the white wolf route, but I think making a nomad would be a much cooler nod to the comics. Yeah, man. You hear that MCU? We're writing your movies for you. Yeah. Yeah. Send all checks to superhero cinephiles.
Speaker: Please. Yeah. And, and also we get another possible hero introduced here at the end, because we get
Speaker: Joaquin Torres, who became the second Falcon in the comics, he gets the flight suit at the end of the fifth episode. Yeah, and that was a nice callback to the very first mission that Falcon went on in the whole series. And we get introduced to Joaquin, and we didn't know that we would see him again.
Speaker: I again, Phil and MCU obviously realizes it. It's important for them to continue to build that legacy and Claremont it as we were talking about where they leave things laying around where it's like, okay, well, we need a character for this. Oh yeah. Well, we do have that Falcon run around now that we can just pull from somewhere. So I'm glad to see that Sam is leaving his own legacy as well and not
Speaker: And they're not completely abandoning the identity of Falcon or just leaving it laying around until they decide they want Bucky to be Captain America or they, I don't know, I mean, I don't know. Well, they recast Steve Rogers. I mean, who knows? But I like the idea that MCU is willing to give known characters to new people. Yeah. And kind of leave that to be explored at a later time.
Speaker: Yeah. And what do you think of the boat fixing scene in the fifth episode? It was very cool. It was very cool. Also, I didn't mind that Bucky had a thing for Sam's sister. I thought that was kind of cute. Yeah. I thought they were kind of tots and dorbs together. It felt very on brand for Bucky to kind of be like, hey, I'm Neil and your sister.
Speaker: kind of thing, you know? Not that Bucky would have to stoop so low, but you know, it never hurts to have that in your back pocket when you're in an argument with your friend of me. So I really did enjoy the bow fixing scene though, because it showed
Speaker: Because obviously, Sam has this technology and they were government issued, obviously. But at the same time, Sam got to show off some of his know -how and him and Bucky got to work on a boat together and built their whole report together some more. And while they were still being Bucky and Sam, it was cool to see them kind of come together and figure things out to get the boat working.
Speaker: My only thing with I love the scene in general, my whole thing was the placement of it in the in the show, because it feels like at that point they got other shit to worry about here. Yeah. And it's a very lighthearted scene in the middle of a hey, like you said, there's so heavy things going on. Maybe we fix the boat after. Yeah. Yeah. So again, that could have been another covid rewrite where they're like, man, we got this great scene with them on the boat. Where are we going to stick in? They're like,
Speaker: I don't know, just throw it on episode five. We'll figure it out. Okay. Okay. And so, so maybe that's why we got it that way. Yeah. Um, I just want to mention here, uh, where do you think they're going to go forward now with, um, now we got, so now we get, see Val's recruited us agent kind of recruited the Elena, but after Hawkeye, you know, I'm not really sure how loyal she is now, but
Speaker: And we got Zemo in the raft, obviously. Yeah. And, you know, and Contessa name checks him, too, right at the end there. So she does. What do you think we're going to what do you think we're going to be going with that?
Speaker: Well, the good thing about Captain America 4 is without this series, then we would have to do Sam's origin story to be Cap. So now they don't have to worry about that. They don't have to be like, they don't have to just jump right to it where he's immediately Captain America after Endgame. They told that story. Now they can really tell something fresh.
Speaker: I would like to see them just go completely opposite of what we've seen before. Like we don't necessarily have to see everybody from this. We don't need to see Zemo. I think obviously Bucky needs to be a part of it. I feel like they're interchangeable at this point.
Speaker: I don't I don't see us getting Wonder Soldier movies or Bucky movies. So we just assume at this point that if there's a Captain America movie, Bucky is going to be in it, which is fine. But I do feel like you can continue Bucky's story and then continue to tell Sam stories, Captain America. Just just bring in some new rogues, man. Like Cap has a rich rogues gallery that still hasn't really been such. I mean, I know we got Crossbones and Batroc and obviously Red Skull. I mean, hell, you could even
Speaker: There was multiple red skulls. You could bring back a red skull if you wanted to. We've gotten Zemo. There's, I mean, you could even, you can put Agent in it, obviously, and you can build his story and you can put Agent versus Cap in different situations, depending on what it is, because Agent supposedly is going to fix the things Captain America can't. So he sounds like he's still going to be government funded, obviously. So he'll be on certain missions.
Speaker: I want to see, I think a good way to do it would be to go to the Cass Rose Gallery, but we still haven't got an armor war story. So, I mean, if you know your armor wars, I know you do, Perry. When Steve was the captain, him and Iron Man actually clashed because Captain America was trying to protect Walt Guardsman who was doing Tony's technology.
Speaker: and they came to blows over it, and Tony won in the Silver Centurion armor, which is the best Iron Man armor. There's a hot -ass take. And so I would like to see something like that, because again, we've seen some of the stuff where it's like, oh, Tony's technology is out here. Well, we are actually getting an Armor Wars series. Oh, that's right. That's right. It's going to be with, I think, Rhodey's going to be the center of that one.
Speaker: Let me shut up. But just to get back to my original point, just go digging through the Caps Rose Gallery and tell some cool stories that a new story featured him and have Sam have a credible threat to go against in the movie, have Bucky in it. If you want to bring Sharon in, you can. So there's different elements you can pull from you, but you don't have to reuse every single thing from Captain America or Falcon and Winter Soldier to get there.
Speaker: I think it's possible we might see Sharon possibly becoming the main antagonist then. I think this series kind of sets her up perfectly for that. That's an easy thing to do. They could also do something like, especially now you got the
Speaker: especially this political climate right now, you could do something like an adaptation of the Two Americas story that grew bigger. When they brought back the Nazi cap, basically. Yeah, I mean, you could totally do that. They already did hydro cap a little bit in Winter Soldier. They kind of hinted towards that. But I mean, that'd be really hard to do without Steve, though.
Speaker: But there's there's just so many stories where cap gives up the shield we know but Sam's not going to do that, but there can always be a situation where he's put on the run for some reason I mean, that's just caps mo that that was always a go to anyway where it's like caps without his country he's on his own he has no backup.
Speaker: So so there's there's a rich history they can dig. Yeah, I was going to say Secret Empire, but, you know, they kind of did a variation of that with Winter Soldier. So I don't. Yeah, it's hard to sell a black, not a hydric cap. That would be real interesting. No, not not that Secret Empire, not the original Secret Empire. Oh, oh, got you. When he went up against the government. But OG. Yeah, yeah. But also like, you know,
Speaker: Like you were saying, we haven't even seen like the Serpent Society or anything like that. That would be interesting to see what they do with that. Or they could just, or if they want to lean on Zemo, they could use the next Captain America movie to introduce the Thunderbolts. Yeah, I was thinking too, like if, and then I'm wondering about what they do with like, cause you got Zemo now, you've got US agent, you got Yelena abomination still out there as we saw in Shang Chi. So it really feels like they could, they got the makings for a Thunderbolt series now.
Speaker: There's plenty of people that Spider -Man's put away that they could use. I mean, we still haven't seen what happens with Scorpion that they from Homecoming, which was in the Stinger, Michael Mando's character, they could always build off of that. There's so many to choose from.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it'd be kind of cool to see if they went the Thunderbolts route, what kind of way do you think would, or would you like to see, would you like to see it do like the, the hero redemption angle, like the original Thunderbolts, or would you like to see more the post -Civil War era where they were like, you know, almost like Marvel's Suicide Squad?
Speaker: Um, I would, I would probably want to see the hero redemption target first, especially with Zemo, um, because I don't want to see Zemo ever be completely good, but, but it would be cool to, to kind of see him take the reins of a team like that. And then also be doing his, his bad shit on the side still.
Speaker: I think that could be really cool, especially in the machinations of it, again, being something that can be pulled from for another TV series and movie from something Zemo did in Thunderbolts. So I would go with the redeeming the villain's idea first. Okay. I think I'd probably like to see the, I lean more towards like the Suicide Squad version type. Yeah. Especially because you got, you know, Walker is kind of like the
Speaker: Servant is like the agent flag role type of thing. Yeah. Kind of like Luke Cage did when he was leading the Thunderbolts. I think that's that's one way to do it, too. Yeah, there's you can do it either way, for sure. The only thing I think it would stop them is is people will be like, man, this reminds me of Suicide Squad. Yeah, that's what I was thinking, too. That's the only reason why I think they wouldn't go there, because who would have thought that we'd have not one, but two Suicide Squad movies prior to Marvel being able to get the Thunderbolts? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Well, that was such a weird choice when they made a suicide squad movie with all these rogues before you even introduced the heroes that have put these rogues away. That's the DCEU for you, man. Let's just do it and see what happens. Yeah. People love it when MCU does that. But at least we got James Gunn's Suicide Squad out of it and then Peacemaker. Yeah.
Speaker: Peacemaker is so crazy. Every time I, every time I'm watching that, I'm watching that show, like it gets to the intro and there's that little skip intro button. I'm like, Oh, fuck no. What are you crazy? No, skip that intro. And my daughter's getting into it now too. Like, yeah, I'm watching. She loves intros to TV shows. Like the X -Files intro, she goes back shit over. She like searched. She's like, Oh,
Speaker: I don't know what it is about, but she loves that intro. And then like, and I was watching Peacemaker yesterday and I had like two episodes left on of the current ones. And intro comes on in the first episode I'm watching. She stops what she's doing. She just stops and she just stares at the screen. And then later the second episode comes in. Again, same exact thing. She just stops and turns and looks at the screen as soon as she hears the music come on. Raising her right, man. That's what you're doing. Okay. We got anything else to say about Falcon and Winter Soldier?
Speaker: My final thoughts is, there was a lot of story in the sex up six episodes. I've already said that a lot of world building a lot of character growth from almost everybody we saw.
Speaker: I, for it to be the next one we saw after WandaVision, I was really, really happy with how it came out. And then Loki came out and I was like, oh my God. And so it is worthy of anyone's time to watch it. I don't care if you just watch them see you casually.
Speaker: I don't care if you're a diehard, you definitely need to watch it. I think it has something for everybody. And just outstanding performances from Mackie and from Sebastian Stan and all across the board, man. Great casting, great storytelling, and looking forward to seeing more in Captain America 4. Yeah, same here. I thought they did
Speaker: I thought the main story is a little bit weak, but I thought everything else surrounding it is really strong. Like you mentioned, the casting was great.
Speaker: love seeing Daniel Ruhl come back as Zemo. He's just being like, I was so excited to see him come back and I never, and I wasn't expecting how much I would love him. Exactly. He's doing a little dance right now. He's doing a dance, Zemo dance. Oh God, it was so much fun. You know, getting Madripoor introduced, cause I love Madripoor. It's such a cool location in Marvel and seeing that - Anything can happen in Madripoor. Yeah. I mean, just like, you know,
Speaker: Fuck it, man. Let's get a Wolverine series set in Mad Report. Forget it. Forget the X -Men. I just want to see him as Patch and like running the princess bar. Don't, don't you play with me.
Speaker: Uh, but yeah, that would be, that would be awesome. And Marvel, if you're listening, you know, fuck, get us a patch series, get us a, yeah. Uh, that would be, have Zemo come in and appear as the backup dancer. Have Wolverine like walk by and smack him in the back of the head. Stop dancing, bub. You're a baron for crying out loud. Uh, but it, you know, we finally get to see, you know, we knew what was coming, but to actually see Sam put on the costume, I thought was, was, was such a great moment. It was, it was big. It was big. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, and getting the stuff with Isaiah Bradley like I had expected we get some hints of Isaiah Bradley as soon as they said Carl Lumley is going to be it. I'm like, Oh, they're doing Isaiah Bradley, they're going to do the truth. But I wasn't expecting the way they did it and I thought they
Speaker: did such an amazing way of incorporating that into the MCU. And yeah, I mean - And being as real as possible with - Being as real as possible. Yeah, I mean, it's got some story issues, but overall, everything surrounding the main story I thought was just pitch perfect. I think you can easily overlook a lot of those story problems by focusing on those other things.
Speaker: Yeah, I agree. Because as much as the Flag Smashers didn't end up really being everything we wanted them to be, they were still quite a credible threat. I didn't love Carly all the way through. But again, her characterization, we talked about it. We were trying to make her so sympathetic. And there just was no point where everybody was like, besides Bucky, who really wanted to beat her ass. So. Yeah.
Speaker: So, so there was that like bucket was like, oh, let me get my hands on her and say, I was like, no, let me talk to her. Let's talk. He's like, oh, whatever. But yeah. All right. Kel, you want to tell people where they can find you?
Speaker: Yeah, last episode, I told you you can find me at my website, which is hyphenuniverse .com. I have a YouTube channel, which is also hyphenuniverse. Just type that in. I'm on Facebook under hyphenuniverse. If you like Instagram, I'm the be hyphen on there and I'm on Twitter, be hyphen. And that's about it. And hyphen podcast group, that's where you'll find my podcast as well as other podcasts that are on our nice little network over there. So come check us out.
Speaker: Okay, great. And, you know, my stuff, all my, all my writing, all my, all my work can be found at PercivalConstein .com. This show, SuperheroCinephiles .com. Drop me a line if you want to be on the show, if you want to come on and talk about superhero movies. A lot of fun, guys. A lot of fun, yeah. And other than that, you know, Super Cinema Pod on Twitter and Instagram. Got a Facebook group as well.
Speaker: Uh, feel free to join, feel free to rate, review us on apple podcasts, anywhere you get your podcasts and stars, five stars. Yeah. And that does it for us. And we'll talk to you next time. Kel. Thanks so much for coming on again. Always fun to have you on for these. Oh man. Great, great sitting in this, in this great seat, man. Thanks for having me. Always welcome back. All right. That does it for us and we'll talk to you next time.
Speaker: You have been listening to the Superhero Cinephiles podcast. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram at SuperCinemapod. Join our Facebook group by searching for Superhero Cinephiles, where you can interact with us and other superhero fans. If you'd like to support the show, you can become a regular supporter at Patreon or make a one -time donation through PayPal, both of which can be found at our website, SuperheroCinephiles .com.
Speaker: If you buy or rent any movies through the Amazon links at our site, it helps support the show. Please be sure to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for listening. And as always,
Speaker: Good night. Good evening. God bless.
