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Episode 417: Limping into the Leagues Cup
72 Plays2 years ago
That was not what the Sounders needed or were really expecting was it? Coming off a disappointing loss to the Earthquakes, and needing a win badly, the Sounders played much better but still had to settle for a 1-1 tie with FC Dallas.
The Sounders have now not scored more than one goal or won consecutive games at home in about three months. This while playing good by almost all the underlying numbers. Still, the sounders head into the Leagues Cup break not in an entirely awful position, fourth in the West and only one point out of second. We put it all in perspective and assess the Sounders' chances in Leagues Cup.
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Transcript
Sponsorship and Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
This episode of Nos Arietes is sponsored by Full Pull Wines, a Seattle-based wine retailer and proud sponsor of Nos Arietes since 2011. Full Pull was founded in 2009, is based in Seattle, and is owned and operated by longtime sounder supporters. They offer the best boutique wines of the world to members of their mailing list, with special focus on their home, the Pacific Northwest.
00:00:21
Speaker
Hey, this is Christian Roldan. And Jordan Morris from the Seattle Sounders Football Club. And you're listening to... There's no study at this. Here we go. Come on! Hey, Ocean! Let's go! What a save by Fry! The Seattle Sounders have done it! MLS co-pointers! Here come three games through the middle to crowd it! The vehicle! And now they truly can't stop the celebrations.
00:01:04
Speaker
Seattle Sounders the greatest MLS team in history This is a tiny doll
Sounders' Performance Against FC Dallas
00:01:34
Speaker
Is that why you young people call twerking?
00:01:37
Speaker
Welcome to another edition of NOS Adiatus, sponsored by Fullpool Wines, Watson's Counter, and our Substack subscribers. This is episode 416 and we're recording on Tuesday, July 18th, 2023. I am your host, Jeremiah Shan. Joining me as usual is my co-host, Aaron Capo, and of course, our producer, Lickit. That was not what the sounders needed or were really expecting, was it?
00:02:00
Speaker
Coming off a disappointing loss to the earthquakes and needing a win badly, the Sounders played much better, but still had to settle for a 1-1 tie at home with FC Dallas. The Sounders have not scored more than one goal or one consecutive games at home in about three months. This while playing good by almost all the underlying numbers, still the Sounders head into the league's cup break, not an entirely awful position, fourth in the West and only one point out of second. Aaron, what gives? What is going on here?
00:02:29
Speaker
I don't know, man, that was a really frustrating...
00:02:33
Speaker
Uh, game against Dallas. I, I have a lot of questions about the decisions made about who started which game, uh, why, why there were not more substitutions used over this three game week. Uh, the team looked exhausted against Dallas. It was pretty clear. I think after Dallas score, the sounders did just did not look likely to me to get another goal. They didn't play poorly, but.
00:03:04
Speaker
I think that if they had fully punted the San Jose game, which I think everybody kind of expected them to do, and I think would have been a totally reasonable thing to do. I think that they probably won against Dallas. They didn't though. They did a weird half and half thing. And then you saw a lot of the same guys starts on Saturday. Those were the guys that faded. Those guys didn't get taken out. And, you know, I know it's, I guess kind of cheap to talk about this stuff as,
00:03:31
Speaker
the difference between a draw and a win, but the margins are pretty fine right now. And I have the substitution patterns have been something that that's been bugging me a lot, I think, especially because this was a problem last year and the games looked a lot like this, where the same guys were getting starts game in, game out. The substitutions were not were not frequent and they were pretty
00:04:02
Speaker
that almost seemingly scripted. And, you know, the games looked like this a lot of the time where the sounders looked okay on paper. The underlying numbers weren't terrible. Now eventually this changed, but there was a long stretch of the season that was almost exactly like this where the performances weren't terrible. They weren't getting good results. And, and to see return to that after it was acknowledged as an issue in preseason that
00:04:29
Speaker
You know, we need to have a little more competition for places. And it's just, I'm really frustrated right now with, with where this team is at.
00:04:38
Speaker
And I think it's fair to be frustrated. And I feel like we talk or there's a lot of chatter in general about substitution patterns in part because it's just very easy as an observer to look and say like more sooner subs, right? And not always look at the bigger picture. But I do think this is an example this week of how sometimes common sense
00:05:03
Speaker
does make, would have made a good decision. You know, the Sounders rotated very lightly at midweek. We talked about this last week on the show, but they only used two different players on Wednesday. And both of those, the two players that didn't play were basically trainers orders not to play again. That was Alex Roldon and Raul Rui Diaz. And then Rui Diaz and Roldon came back into the lineup
00:05:29
Speaker
On Saturday, they were joined by Christian Roldon, Stephen Fry.
Player Performance & Tactical Analysis
00:05:33
Speaker
It was pretty close to a first choice lineup, you know, really maybe minus Jordan Morris. And even then, I don't know where you you necessarily put them. Nico Ledero didn't start. I suppose you could say to Brian's credit, he finally gave Ledero a day off. But one of the things that has that really confused me
00:05:53
Speaker
And I say confused in an honest way, because I still, I just don't totally understand it, is Jal Paulo and Obed Vargas started all three games last week. In fact, they've now started seven straight games together. And I don't think they've been bad. Jal Paulo, maybe been the best player for the Sounders.
00:06:10
Speaker
And Obed Vargas I don't think has been bad, but he's not been nearly good enough to justify seven straight starts. And especially three starts in a week. And he played 270 minutes this week. And yeah, he almost came up with a miracle winning goal against Dallas, where he hits a 32 yard shot off of a, you know, off a first time shot that almost that almost scores and you know, credit to him. But
00:06:40
Speaker
I just couldn't help but feel like there needed to be a little bit more energy in the central midfield. And that could have been Vargas. It could have been Rusnak. It could have been any number of changes that the Sounders could have made. Yeah, I think that Obed has been fine. He's been serviceable. He clearly has a ton of potential. We've speculated, I think at times, that maybe they're playing him so much because they're trying to impress, put him in the shop window, so to speak.
00:07:10
Speaker
And that's all well and good until you go on a run of performances like this, where something's got to give. And Obed's performances seem like they've made him a good candidate to be that thing to give. Josh Tensio has looked really, really good, I think. I would love to see him get more of a run out. And I just...
00:07:35
Speaker
I wouldn't even mind Christian switching back to that eight position and putting Jordan and Chu onto the wings. I just don't think that what they're doing right now is the answer. And I think that a player like Obed can do nothing really wrong without being
00:07:55
Speaker
a good fit for what the team is trying to do. And that's how it feels to me right now, where nothing that he's bringing is a perfectly serviceable eight who can go both ways and do a job for you. But that's not really what the Sounders need right now. And I don't know exactly what it is they need from that other central midfield position, but I feel pretty confident in saying that Obed is not giving them whatever that thing is.
00:08:21
Speaker
Yeah, I think what they probably need is they need a little bit more offensive contributions. And, you know, to his credit, Brian today was talking about how one of the things they need from Obed is a little bit more willingness to drive forward. He is effective when when he gets into the box, but I think he allows himself to, like, sort of be the deepest midfielder a lot of the time. And it sounds like the centers are trying to get him not to do that. Now,
00:08:46
Speaker
why they continue to play them. I can't like I've asked this question a few different ways. And it seems like the Sounders are generally pretty happy with them. I think that they have not seen like what
Tactical System Debate
00:09:01
Speaker
What they're seeing in attention I think is a little different than what we oftentimes see like we think of this breakout performance that he had against St. Louis and that he's only started one or two games since then and both of those were with somewhat rotated lineups and so it was it feels a little unfair to judge him like that.
00:09:19
Speaker
And Brian today mentioned how he didn't think that Atencio had been that good when he came off the bench. I will argue that I thought he was probably the best player off the bench against San Jose. He was the one player who was driving forward and trying to make things happen.
00:09:36
Speaker
But, uh, you know, I suppose there's a fair argument to say that he hasn't done enough with the chances that he's gotten, but he just hasn't gotten that many chances. And I don't want to make it all about Josh Intensio. I think there's lots of other, you know, like you said, maybe, maybe the Sounders need to move Roll Dawn back into the midfield. I still think Roll Dawn is most valuable and we saw it in this game.
00:09:56
Speaker
on the right wing, he's he is someone who's willing to kind of push the envelope and make things happen. And I think he's probably a better right mid than Jordan is. I think the big quite like to me, there's a couple big, big questions that the Sounders are going to have to answer over their next 12 to 17 games or whatever. Yeah, they end up having to play for the rest of the season. But one of the big ones is where what's your best attacking group? Is it?
00:10:25
Speaker
Rolled on, Rui Diaz and Morris, is it two Morris and Rolled on? Heck, maybe it's two Rui Diaz and Rolled on. I think that's that's one part of the equation. You got essentially three players for two positions out there. And then the other big one is who's your central midfield? Rusnak, Ledero, Jau Paulo,
00:10:51
Speaker
Obed Vargas and maybe Josh Intensios in that conversation. And then sort of related to that is who's your number 10 between, I assume, between
00:11:01
Speaker
Rusnak and Ledero. And I think those are mostly good choices to have. If you are in a position where you have to make all these choices, you have plenty of talent. You cannot convince me that this team doesn't have the talent to contend for MLS Cup. They have it. They certainly have plenty of talent and they've tried deploying them in different positions within pretty much the same tactical system. Right.
00:11:29
Speaker
And that to me suggests maybe this tactical system is not what's not what you need to be using right now. Maybe you don't need a 10. I think, I mean, teams defensively seem to have kind of figured out the Sounders and they have enough attacking talent that they can sort of will enough chances in each game to look on paper pretty good and pretty dangerous and occasionally put in
Nico Ledero's Role and Team Dynamics
00:11:54
Speaker
a couple of goals. But.
00:11:56
Speaker
this does not look like a team that other teams are having trouble dealing with generally in the attack. And I think that
00:12:07
Speaker
Maybe you need to get away from playing with a 10. Maybe that means moving Ledera back to an eight and playing with dual eights and a dedicated six. Maybe it means playing with three out and out forwards. I think you're right that Christian Roldan is a better right midfielder than Jordan Morris, but is he a better right winger playing that purely attacking role? That's a third question. That's the kind of thing where I think if you were having this much trouble for this long of a sustained period of time,
00:12:34
Speaker
scoring goals and creating real quality chances from an even game state.
00:12:41
Speaker
maybe it's not where you're deploying the guys within your system, maybe it's your system that needs some real consideration. And it wouldn't be that hard, I suppose, to switch into sort of more of a 4-3-3, 3-4-3 sort of like hybrid system where you have, you know, a trio of forwards of two Rui Dias and Morris, you have two eights,
00:13:06
Speaker
presumably two of Roldan, Rusnak, and Ledero, and then Jaupalo sitting beneath them. And then you're sort of like doing away with, you know, you take the second six out of the equation. Like that, I don't see, that doesn't seem like it's too far of a departure from what they're currently playing.
00:13:26
Speaker
Yeah, I don't think it is. I think it's just, it's more of an issue of asking some guys to do the things that maybe they are more comfortable doing, attacking in the case of Jordan Morris and Leo Chiu, running box to box in the case of Christian, maybe not having to have as much of the
00:13:44
Speaker
creative, honest on them with Nico Ledero at this stage of his career. And maybe it doesn't work, right? Like maybe it is just you have a lot of talent, but it's not the right kind of mix of talent or the roster's unbalanced in some way. Maybe this is as good as it gets, but it's not good enough that I don't feel like you can't try something pretty drastically new just to figure out if this really is as good as it gets.
00:14:11
Speaker
Well, I think one of the things that the sounders will one of the maybe the maybe the single biggest question the sounders are gonna have to wrestle with is, is there a
00:14:20
Speaker
place for Nico Ledero in the starting lineup, when he's not really able to carry the load of a 10 anymore. And assuming full health otherwise, because I do think that's one of the problems is that it's, it's like, okay, so you could go with this 433, where you have Ledero and rolled on as sort of two eights.
00:14:41
Speaker
But you are then really going to need Ledero to be tactically disciplined in a way that he has not really shown himself willing or capable of doing. And because his whole game is this all field sort of like roaming everywhere, getting the ball wherever he can.
00:14:59
Speaker
And maybe that's really useful off the bench late in games. I think he can be a really useful player, especially running at tired legs. His movement can be a real asset when he's got tired sixes chasing him around all over the field.
00:15:14
Speaker
And I think that's going to take a bold, bold decision from Brian Schmetzer because I know, nothing about Nico Ledero suggests to me that he is willing to, or that he wants to come off the bench. He's still, in his mind, he's able to play the same way at 34, 35 years old as he did when he was 30. Sure.
00:15:36
Speaker
That's part of what's gotten him to this point, but I do think it's something that he has to sort of like accept that he just can't be roaming the field everywhere that he is. And we saw like one of the big problems with that against San Jose where he just, you know, he can't do it. He just can't run that much and be effective anymore, especially multiple times in a week.
00:15:59
Speaker
Yeah, and I think, I mean, we have seen him be so much more effective and look so much like himself when he is getting, you know, he's playing 70 minutes on Saturday, not playing Wednesday, then maybe going 90 the next Saturday. Right.
00:16:16
Speaker
But he can't, like, he cannot be allowed to dictate the fact that I am going to start every game. I'm going to play 90 and I'm going to play this way that I've been playing my career. I mean, I'm sorry. I love Nico Lodero. He's done more for this club than anyone. He's earned
00:16:38
Speaker
Everything, you know, he's gotten every cent of his contract and then some, but he's hurting the team right now. And it's, it's, it hurts to watch that happen. Like it hurts to be pissed off at Nico Ledero. Right. And, you know, it's not going to like ruin his legacy or anything, but I mean, that's, that's what Brian Schmetzer's job is. Right. Is to figure out how to deliver that message in an effective way.
00:17:04
Speaker
And whatever the consequences are manage those consequences. Uh, I don't think that Nico needs to become purely a bench player. I think he can still, you know, have a lot of value starting certain games. He doesn't need to be starting Wednesday night in San Jose, right? Like those are just the games that he needs to take off. And that to me feels like a much easier sell of like.
00:17:29
Speaker
Hey man, you are in your mid 30s. You have been running like crazy since you were like 12 years old at a really high level. You cannot do this for 270 minutes a week anymore. Right.
00:17:45
Speaker
But, you know, we're going to start you in the big games and we are going to figure out how to win without you during the week. I mean, that seems like a winning message.
Future Speculations and Roster Changes
00:17:56
Speaker
I'm glad I'm not the one that has to deliver it to him, obviously. But somebody needs to somebody needs to be able to get that through to him.
00:18:03
Speaker
Yeah, and also he played 28 minutes this week. He ended up with three key passes. He had one very impactful shot. And frankly, when he got that rebound off of the Jordan Morris header, I thought for sure that was a goal. That was probably the sounder's most dangerous chance, which was a Christian Roldan cross to Morris at the back post. He made good contact on his header.
00:18:28
Speaker
rebound comes out to Ledero and unfortunately it's through traffic and it gets blocked. But it was a good movement. I thought Ledero was reasonably effective coming off the bench. And if the sounders are willing to use their bench, if they're willing to rotate their lineups, they can set this up so that they probably need to win their last four home games.
00:18:54
Speaker
or something close to something close to they probably can't afford to drop many more points at home and still get a good playoff position. But everything is there for them still. I mean, that's the one bright spot is that for all their struggles, for all the frustrations that we've gone through, you know, the Sounders are still sitting on 1.5 points per game. They're still fourth in the West. If the season ended today, they'd be hosting a first round playoff series.
00:19:22
Speaker
And there are only one point out of second, there are only five points out of first. There's a very real chance that the season finale at St. Louis is going to end up being for first place in the West. And if that's the situation the Sounders find themselves in, I think you have to consider that a big, you know, a pretty
00:19:39
Speaker
big win just to be in that position where they could potentially still do that. So these are all positives. I mean, there's no, I think the doom and gloom about the season sometimes gets a little ahead of itself. Yes, the Sounders are not scoring as much as they should be or as much as we want them to be, but there are, I guess my point is there are the pieces of a successful team within all of this frustration.
00:20:05
Speaker
I agree with you. I think that the situation the Sounders are in is not that bad. I think though, at this point, they have been a mediocre team for long enough. And it is reasonable to wonder.
00:20:20
Speaker
Is this who they are now? Yeah, I come down on the side of they're certainly not as good as they looked in April and May. I agree, yeah. I don't think they're this bad either. I think that it's not uncommon for teams to get hit with a bunch of injuries, have players missing time for international duty.
00:20:43
Speaker
hit ruts like this. It used to happen almost every year to this team. Yes. And kick it into here in the playoffs. And I think that's still I mean. Gun to my head, I do not think that this team is going to make a run at the NOS Cup. Right. But I don't think it's crazy. And I think that they are not as bad as they have looked over the last month or two. But I do think that
00:21:10
Speaker
It is reasonable to think maybe they are. I don't think that's a crazy way to feel just because
00:21:18
Speaker
It's not just this year. I mean, outside of. Yeah, I think this is this is the end of the this core roster, I think has to turn over in the in the offseason. That's going to be a lot of tough decisions like as much as it's not fair to place this all on Nico Ledero. I I don't see right now a way to justify bringing him back in part because they just need they sort of need a clean break, I think from him being the
League's Cup Introduction & Sounders' Placement
00:21:47
Speaker
focal point.
00:21:47
Speaker
I think you're going to have to revisit Albert Rusnak's contract. I don't think you can afford to bring him back as a DP. We can go down the list. I think you probably want to bring back Steph Fry, but I think you're going to have to find the right number. That makes sense. I don't think you can pick up Javier Arriaga's option. There's probably four or five more of those relatively big contracts that you're going to have to
00:22:16
Speaker
and you certainly can't bring back at the number that they're currently on. And that'll make for a very interesting offseason.
00:22:26
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it's, it is a little scary, obviously. And I think, I think you're right. I think the era of Nico is over after this year and it's been a very good run. I mean, seven years, MLS cups, the champions league, like everything that you could have wanted when they signed him in 2016, you've gotten it. And, but it has to end at some point.
00:22:47
Speaker
And the idea of him coming back, even as a Tam player next year, I just, I think you gotta know. Yeah. I, I, I, unless I think you can only bring him back as a Tam player if you still think he's a starter. And if you still think he's a starter next year, I think that's just leading you down the same sort of process. Exactly. Exactly. And, um, yeah, I mean, I, I agree with you on, on Rusnak as well. Um, I like him a lot. I think that a lot of the heat he's gotten has been.
00:23:16
Speaker
very unfair. I think that he's been one of the more consistent players, but I think you can go in a different direction and feel pretty comfortable about that. I mean, I think he makes a lot more sense as a TAM player than as a DP. And my suspicion is the sounders would either have to use sort of like a
00:23:40
Speaker
What do they call it? A mechanism DP or whatever, a budgetary DP. Or they could go out and sign a young DP. And then where you're going to really be able to make an impact on the rosters with these U22 roster spots that you would essentially get two more of if you don't have three full DPs. But we don't need to get too much into the roster building yet.
00:24:06
Speaker
I think maybe when we come, we'll take a break here. We'll come back. We're going to talk a little bit about the league's cup that's, that's coming up. And, uh, you know, the Sounders are off for like five weeks.
00:24:18
Speaker
uh, from league play. And this could either be a really, uh, I don't know, it could end up being an interesting five weeks, or it could be a really boring anti-climatic five weeks, but, uh, we're going to take a break. We'll come back and we'll talk a little bit more about, uh, what we think of league's cup and what the expectation should be. Uh, you're listening to no study at this Watson's counter wants to thank everyone for their patience, but now the wait is over.
00:24:45
Speaker
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00:25:10
Speaker
Welcome back to nose. So, uh, this is all prelude to a rather, I don't know, we'll call it an interesting experiment that, uh, MLS and league and Becky's are doing in this league's cup thing.
00:25:26
Speaker
And to give you sort of like a broad overview of how this works, there's 29 MLS teams. All of them gained entry into this tournament. There are 18 League of Mackey teams. They all gained direct entry into this tournament. So you have 47 total teams playing in this tournament. 47, as you surely realize, is a little bit of an odd number to try to create a tournament around. And so what they did is they created this mechanism by which
00:25:56
Speaker
the supporters shield winner from the previous year gets a buy out of the group stage and goes straight into the round of 32 and I guess the top team from League of M.E.K.E.'s gets the same treatment and so you're left with 45 teams broken up into nine groups. Is that right?
00:26:14
Speaker
That's probably not right. But there's 45 teams that are broken up into a bunch of three team groups, and they're going to play a little group stage, and then they're going to play a round of 16, round of 32, or round of 32, round of 16, on and on and on.
00:26:29
Speaker
So where we are right now is the sounders are in a group which is called West2 with RSL and Monterey, which is frankly, it might be the most interesting. It's one of the most interesting groups. It's a very competitive group. Monterey is coming off of
00:26:48
Speaker
They had one of the best records in the game. Mackie's last year they are a powerhouse. They are a team the Sounders have played before in Champions League.
Criticism of League's Cup Format
00:26:55
Speaker
And RSL, after a bit of a wonky start, luckily the Sounders played them twice during that wonky start. Now are like the hottest team in the league.
00:27:07
Speaker
And they are the top seed in this group. They get to host both of their games. But as the schedule makers would have it, the Sounders actually get a pretty big break scheduling wise because they are playing on a full week rest both of their games. And so they are going to play RSL in the first game on Saturday at RSL, which, you know, that's that's that's that's a straight up match. That's that's going to be tough. Sounders haven't won at RSL.
00:27:36
Speaker
in any competition since the 2012 playoffs, they haven't won a regular. So I guess that's that's the apropos. I think they haven't won there in a long time.
00:27:46
Speaker
They did tie there earlier this year, they tied 0-0. And they would probably take that result happily. But what the kicker is, is that RSL then has to turn around and play Monterey at midweek. And then the Sounders get Monterey also on short rest the following Sunday. So the Sounders actually make out pretty good here because they don't have to play any of these games on short rest. RSL has to play their second game on short rest. And then the Sounders get Monterey on short rest themselves.
00:28:17
Speaker
I don't know that the Sounders are anything like favorites to get out of the group But I think they have a pretty decent chance of getting out of the group. Yeah, I mean they need More points than one of the other teams, right? And you know this whole thing is a coin flip. So yeah, I think they have decent chance I it seems crazy to me that RSL is the quote-unquote top seed and
00:28:42
Speaker
doesn't get a week between their games. That seems like the clearest possible advantage. I mean, home field advantage, I guess, but.
00:28:50
Speaker
I guess what makes it tough, I think that's what makes it tough. Like that's what these three teams group is tough because I guess there's not really any way that they could, I guess, well, yeah, I guess they could do that. Like, I guess theoretically, the Sounders could play at RSL on Saturday and then have to turn around and play Monterey at home on the midweek and then RSL could get Monterey on the road, like get them on the weekend. So yeah, I guess they could have done it that way. You're right. Yeah. I mean, that's the way.
00:29:18
Speaker
I'm not going to say the way that makes the most sense because nothing about this tournament makes sense, but the way that given the weird constraints of this tournament, that seems to make the most sense. If you're calling RSL the top seed, which I guess you are because they have the better record right now.
00:29:34
Speaker
Well, it's it was based on this last year. Yeah, but that gets into it. Like another funny quirk of this tournament is that so once you get out of the group stage, you then are seated based on where you finish, right? So if you are the West winner, you get to host the, or you're the West, the sound centers are in West two. Uh, if you win West two, you, you get home field advantage in the next round, but the,
00:30:02
Speaker
I think that's very silly is that from the round of 16, I guess all the way to the final, uh, it's then hosting is based on the supporters shield standings, unless you're playing a Mexican team, in which case the MLS team always hosts. Uh, and which is just another silly part of this
Sounders' Objectives in League's Cup
00:30:18
Speaker
tournament. Uh, there was talk, I think of a league's cup final being at a neutral site. That's how, in fact, that's how it was when the centers made the league's cup final in 2021. Uh, obviously a different format for that tournament, but, uh,
00:30:33
Speaker
Yeah, I guess they're playing those at home stadiums within reason, I don't know. It does become kind of a silly, and oh, by the way, there's no ties. They're gonna go straight to a shootout after the, at least in the group stage, so that you get an extra bonus point if you win the shootout, just like it is in MLS Next Pro. So, you know, they're drawing from the best.
00:31:00
Speaker
Yeah, they, uh, boy, they're, they're sure trying stuff with this, huh? Um, I think my favorite part about this tournament is that the whole selling point is that it's, you know, Oh, it's, it's a way for see how the league's really stack up against one another, but home field advantage is worth. Now this is ballpark, right? Um, it depends on the quality of the teams and lots of, but roughly 0.6 goals per game.
00:31:28
Speaker
and the Mexican teams are not playing any games at home. So pretty reasonable to think most of the Mexican teams are better than most of the MLS teams.
00:31:42
Speaker
But they have this handicap that they have to deal with in every game. They have to travel all over the place. They get to be away from home for a month and a half or whatever. And by the way, their season just started. They're three weeks into their season. Right. Right. So I mean, they're kind of in this situation that MLS clubs are always bitching about with Champions League where they're not in season four. But if you're a league at Mackie's team,
00:32:08
Speaker
You just got to be sort of like, what are we doing here? Like we just started the season and we're taking a five week break from our season to play this, this glorified friendly tournament where we got to go to be a wave. They've all got to go on these like long road trips to the United States. Like.
00:32:26
Speaker
They signed up for and I just I don't like I get why I'm the less wants to do this obviously if they're gonna make a ton of money they get to show off messy on TV for Mexican, you know in front of Mexican TV audiences and yeah your standard MLS audience I Get why MLS wants to do this. I do not understand why I mean presumably we got making money too, but right it does seem like a
00:32:53
Speaker
I don't know. It's an interesting one. The sounders say that they are going to try to win this thing. They're going to be rolling out. You know, they're not planning on rolling out experimental lineups or whatever. Now they might be tweaking their lineup because I think they are looking at this as a way to sort of like.
00:33:07
Speaker
potentially kickstart their season. And in that sense, I think the sounders, I think really very clearly want to advance out of the group. I've been saying that the best case scenario is
00:33:24
Speaker
one of two things, either you win the thing, or you go out after the round of 32. And so that you only have like a two week, you'd only end up with like a two week break at that point. I do think there's some danger of like, if you go out in the group stage, you get like stale, essentially, sitting around and waiting.
00:33:43
Speaker
I do think that if I agree with you, I do think that it's probably less of a big deal for the Sounders than it would be for other teams because stuff is not working right now. And if you can get some extra time and training to try some stuff, maybe play some friendlies against Seattle or something, I don't know. Maybe that's not as disastrous for the Sounders as it would be for other teams, but I think it's not a good outcome. I would much rather they be able to do that for two weeks.
00:34:11
Speaker
or figure something out in the group stage and go on the run. Yeah, maybe they go on a run and they look great. And so while we're mapping this thing out, another funny, and I don't know, I haven't like crunched the numbers or anything to figure out what would have maybe made more sense. But so one of the other funny quirks of this thing is
00:34:30
Speaker
Most of the time you play these World Cup style tournaments, the two groups are always paired together. The winner of one group plays the second place of another group and then vice versa. In this one, the Sounders, if they win the group, they play the second place team from the group that includes
00:34:54
Speaker
that includes the Timbers, the Earthquakes, and Tigris, which, man, that would be kind of hilarious if they end up playing Portland or San Jose in the League's Cup after playing RSL. I just think the way this is set up just feels very, like,
00:35:12
Speaker
You're just playing a lot of extra MLS games, which is like Challenge Cuppy if you're familiar with the NWSL. But then if they finish second, they play the winner of the group that includes LA, Leon, and Vancouver. Obviously, more familiar opponents there. Yeah.
00:35:36
Speaker
I don't understand how anybody is supposed to care about this. I really, I tried for a couple of weeks to not be cynical about it, but I don't understand how you can be anything else. Like, who is this for? I mean, I don't know. I will say this. I am willing to be
00:35:59
Speaker
I'm willing to give this a chance. I don't know. And I don't know what that even means, frankly. The RSL game is not going to win me over. And frankly, who knows? I don't know if the Monterey game is going to win me over. But I suppose if the Sounders are in the semifinals and they've had to play a couple Mexican teams along the way, maybe it starts to feel real.
00:36:23
Speaker
very similar to what happened at the Lacus League's Cup is I really didn't care about it until they were in the final and then all of a sudden when they were in the final against Leon, I was pretty into that. Yeah, but they had to do something to get into that. They did. They had to qualify to get into that. And that's a notable difference about this. And I do feel like this tournament would work better in a pared down version now where it would be tough to make it a pared down version is that you can't, like,
00:36:51
Speaker
you're not gonna pause the season so that like half your teams can go play in this thing. But it does, it would make so much more sense as like a 32 team tournament instead of a 47 team tournament. And I don't like, I really don't like the idea of pausing your season for five weeks to play this thing. That does seem to be like problematic.
00:37:17
Speaker
Yeah, I just I think that maybe if this wasn't happening at the same time as some other stuff is happening, that's happening in the league, I would be a little more forgiving of it. But it's just so transparently, an anti competitive cash grab that
00:37:33
Speaker
Yeah, it is. It is like you said, it's a friendly tournament and that's well and good, but you're disrupting the season for it. You're expecting teams to take it seriously so they can't rest players or play young players or whatever as you would expect them to without being pissed for it.
00:37:52
Speaker
Um, I just, I mean, they're in it. So you might as well root for the Sounders to win it. Hope that it does give them the opportunity to turn their season around, but that's not going to justify it. That's just making the best of a bad situation. Yeah. I mean, here, let me ask you this a very rough hypothetical. Let's say the Sounders win this thing. So they would also gain entry into Champions League, uh, in 2024.
00:38:18
Speaker
Would that then feel like it was a successful season regardless of what happens in the playoffs? No, no.
00:38:25
Speaker
Nothing that happens in this tournament is going to affect that. It's more of like a bonus. This is totally bonus. So you're saying if you go on win MLS cup and you happen to win leagues cup, then it's like, Hey, we won the fucking double. But if you win this and that's it, you're not going to run around saying like, Hey, it was a successful season. I wouldn't be able to say that we won the double with a straight face. I would say you would say it though. Come on. But I would say it in a way that is makes it very clear that I don't actually believe that. I mean, I don't know. It's an international tournament.
00:38:55
Speaker
I guess, I guess, man, I just I hate I hate it so much. I really do. Yeah, I mean, I I do have a hard time with it. I have to admit, like I do. There's part of me that wants to sort of give it a chance. And like I said, if the sounders are end up advancing farther in this thing, I'll probably start to get more into it. But it does feel like you said, it feels very cynical and cash grabby. And, you know, there might be some fun games, but
00:39:25
Speaker
And I guess more what I'm interested in seeing is like if the Sounders can actually play well. Yeah. That's great. That would be great. Yeah. I mean, it's like I said, they're playing the games. I will watch the games. And I'm going to hope for the best possible outcome, which is that they figure stuff out. They go on a run. They come into the back into the season with a lot of confidence. But I would much rather it just didn't happen at all.
00:39:54
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that's fair. That's fair. Well, um, yeah, I guess now I'm, I'm looking at it. This, there is a graphic out there that does, uh, lay it out. There are 15, yeah, 15 groups of that makes sense. 15 groups of three teams. Uh, the West is the only, the only, uh,
00:40:16
Speaker
quadrant that has three groups, which I guess, again, makes for just, but then I guess that makes sense because the fourth entry in from that is LAFC just enters into the west.
00:40:31
Speaker
Anyway, uh, yeah, so this will be interesting. Um, and I, I don't know. I'll be like, I'm, I'm actually out of town for the Monterey game. Um, I'm probably, I don't think I'm actually going to be here next week. I might not be able to record with you, Aaron. We might have to get Mark to fill in. Well, that's, you know, I'll miss you Jeremiah, but, uh, it's always nice to see Mark. So we'll do our best.
00:40:57
Speaker
Yeah, well, that's probably a good place to call it. We'll have a mailbag episode later in the week. But yeah, signing off for our sponsors, full pull wines and Watson's counter as well as our sub sex subscribers. I am Jeremiah Shan, signing off for Aaron Campo and Lickit. This is no study at this. And remember, you will never get alone.
00:42:18
Speaker
We love you. Let's win another one!