Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to Prime Space, a Prime Coaching Academy podcast with your host, Elias Scultori. My friends, coaches, I have a guest today, my dear friend, Ann Fogelin. Hello, Anne.
Speaker: Hi, my friend. How are you? I am doing well. Thank you for being here again. You're the first guest that comes for a second time. And I'm so excited. I repeat.
Speaker: What is this? Shampoo, rinse, repeat. Is that it? So I don't know if Ann needs any introduction because she has been such a powerful person and a powerful presence in coaching and the coaching industry.
Speaker: For over two decades now, more than two decades now, Ann is an MCC coach, a powerful coach. Ann is a coach educator for several coach training programs.
Speaker: Ann is ah coach a mentor. She is a trained supervisor. She is an assessor for the ICF. She has been closely involved with the ICF and supporting the ICF through some of the products and that the ICF has released.
Speaker: She is in and very much of an expert in not only in coaching, but in the ins and outs of coaching. So, and thank you so much for being here and for sharing your wisdom and experience with us today.
Speaker: I appreciate that. I appreciate being here, but I do not consider myself an expert in any way, shape or form. There's just so much learning. And every day i wake up knowing how much I don't know.
Speaker: Thank you. It's always a pleasure to be with you, Elias. Spoke like a true expert right now.
Speaker: The one that knows how much we don't know. That's a lot. Just don't tell my kids that. Fabulous. So, Ann what I would love for us to talk about here today and coming from your suggestion here is about the future of coaching.
Speaker: The industry has gone through a lot of changes, continue to go through a lot of changes Where are we going? And see what you are seeing based on your experience in the industry that is perhaps coming ahead or things that perhaps we need to be mindful of to see where we want to take this industry with us.
Speaker: So I thought that a good place to start would be to check in our current state. How did we get here? Well, I know you had some thoughts and I very much appreciate what it was that you were offering before we actually started to record. So maybe you want to share that piece of it and then I'm happy to jump on board with that.
Speaker: I think it there is a ah clear marker for me is when the ICF released the PCC markers. And I believe this was back in 2013, 2014. We were trying to figure out when.
Speaker: The PCC markers was, to me, a decisive moment in the evolution of coaching because it gave coaches and gave the coaching industry a very nuanced definition of the skills and the standards that we expect of a coach to demonstrate.
Speaker: at the PCC level, which is to me the industry standard. What happened to me there, as beneficial as it was the PCC market and as as much clarity we got from the PCC markers, it also had a side effect that I don't think we were expecting.
Speaker: In trying to bring the process into an objective process, it brought us to ah the other side of the pendulum, Before, everything was very subjective, and then it became perhaps a little bit too objective.
Speaker: And coaching education, this is my observation, became more of passing the test or what do we need to demonstrate to check those boxes instead of truly empowering that professional to be the best coach that they can be.
Speaker: And I think that that created a huge impact because then with coaching education focusing on passing an exam, we created a large number of coaches who are perhaps certified,
Speaker: but not necessarily fully capable of understanding what is the core of the coaching mindset. And I think that we are noticing the impact of that now, especially in the latest revision of the ICF core competency.
Speaker: I would agree that I think it changed how we were looking at the demonstration of the competencies and I know that there were many training schools that then were teaching to the markers versus teaching to the competencies.
Speaker: I was blessed to be part of the group that revised these back in 2019. And I can tell you that there were I don't know, 20 of us in the room when we were rewriting these markers, I think because of exactly what you're talking about, so that the markers themselves were a clear demonstration of the essence of what the competencies were meant to demonstrate with the hope that the candidate would demonstrate these markers and
Speaker: through the understanding of said competency versus, to your point, teaching to a marker without the full embodiment of what that competency really means.
Speaker: And so when you say that there could be coaches who embody those particular pieces of of whether they be bars or markers, do they have a full understanding understanding, comprehension, demonstration of the competencies that we're looking at.
Speaker: I would suggest that sometimes the answer is no. i know you assess, Elias, as well. And i have had recordings where I could go, yes, literally every box on the marker sheet has been checked and there's been no coaching at all because it's been, as you stated, checkmark coaching, which isn't coaching. It's its process, completely transactional. And at a PCC level, that just doesn't fly.
Speaker: And that's what makes me very excited about the mentor coaching changes that the ICF is making right now, dropping the performance evaluation and focusing more on the process of working with the mentor coach.
Speaker: Yes, there are some tweaks that need to be done and we need to refine the process. But the idea that we are moving from a performance evaluation of one recording where the coach is performing,
Speaker: to an evolutionary aspect of the coach, to me, is very exciting. I agree with you. i don't love the idea of someone's entire journey being dependent on two recordings that that have been submitted.
Speaker: The piece that concerns me about all of that is the fact that now we have this new designation. And as much as I think the ICF is looking to put guardrails in place so that people truly are Embodying the new designation. The piece that that concerns me is that one person now is the deciding factor of whether or not a credential is earned. And...
Speaker: We know as assessors that this is where differing opinions are of tremendous value. You and I can listen to the same recording, have a difference in how it is that we see or hear something.
Speaker: And the invitation then is for a third person to come in and tie break. And where's is the middle ground of all of that? And I think there's there's great value in that. But to to have the response, number one, the responsibility of that is for me, it is i take this seriously anyway to know that my findings will impact a credential or not is concerning. And the other piece is that my findings will impact a credential. And and that is concerning for me.
Speaker: So um I agree with you. i like the idea that we're moving. I just wonder if there's not more that we need to consider to make this as um fair, objective, efficient for everybody.
Speaker: I do believe that there is more. And I hope that we will continue the evolution. What excites me is that it seems to me that this direction, it's a little bit more clear. And I hope that we will continue to develop.
Speaker: Well, I appreciate too the fact that the ICF is pivoting because they're faced with issues that that they didn't 15, 20 years ago. So I don't know if you had to do this, Elias, but my my ACC and PCC, I had to do a live recording with two assessors. You did two, okay. Definitely. So you talk about being a nervous wreck.
Speaker: You had to demonstrate that you know what you're doing. And there were two assessors that were listening to you coach live. We didn't have AI, which means we didn't have some of the concerns around legalities about misuse, so ethical considerations. There are things that I think the ICF is taking into consideration in how it is that they are looking to credential coaches. And to your point, with these considerations, I think that there's still more that is open to further exploration.
Speaker: So you touched on the big innovation that has impacted the world, including coaching, yeah this concept of ai what What do you see as AI in the future of coaching?
Speaker: I know this teeny, teeny, teeny, tiny bit about AI, which is like nothing in comparison to where some people are. It concerns me because as Educators, I know that you um you have ah a robust training school training program. It's an easy way to navigate the system. What I mean by that is...
Speaker: When we're mentoring and ah one of our our mentoring clients or ah a coaching student has a recording, they put it through AI and then become quite argumentative that AI finds all of this evidence, but from a human mentor coach, when you are getting the feedback information, It can be very different. And so we are picking up on the human components that the AI technology can't. and I think it has great benefit as a starting point, but it can't do what a human can do. it
Speaker: It doesn't have the capability. And if someone is looking to continue in their journey, and move from ACC to PCC and then to MCC, the human component is the piece that absolutely delineates who we are as coaches from every other profession.
Speaker: I think that this is exactly the point when we have a the conversation about the ai There is no question that AI has already made an impact in the coaching industry today. And a proof of that is what you just mentioned.
Speaker: Coaches who are getting ready for certification to use AI to parse their recordings through AI and their transcript through AI to get AI to assess their sessions.
Speaker: That already is a huge impact. And it what AI brings to the conversation or not, sometimes good things, sometimes questionable things, but also clients already receiving coaching from a bot and being successful, receiving great value from that interaction with an AI machine.
Speaker: And that is wonderful. I am super excited about that. I don't i have absolutely no problem with that. However, this that you just mentioned. Coaching is a human to human experience.
Speaker: It's not just about the solution. It's not just about an answer. It's not even just about a space for the person to just think by themselves. It's the space for the person to process and to connect with another human being that is together, human to human, not necessarily with answers, not necessarily with knowledge,
Speaker: That human to human connection that will support that individual to be seen by another human being, to be valued by another human being, to be recognized by another human being, that regardless of the development of AI, AI will never be able to provide.
Speaker: And I would add to be understood. And that is something that is so important in our world. today is to be listened to and understood for who you are, your ideas, your beliefs, your values, your biases, your assumptions, all of that.
Speaker: And then to have somebody support you in navigating through whatever the situation might be. I'm 100% with you on that. I think that AI is giving us the opportunity And I would say not only for the coaching industry, but for the world in general.
Speaker: Where do we want to go with our own values and the way we relate to each other? How do we want our organizations to act? What are the values that we want for our corporations, for our industries, for our government to have?
Speaker: And I think that AI is forcing us to have this question. What is the role of a human being?
Speaker: And the relationship of a human being, what is the distinction between an employee and a human employee? What is the value that that human employee brings to the organization? And then in coaching, what is the distinction of simply asking a powerful question and making a human connection?
Speaker: The other piece that you just mentioned, too, was the knowledge piece. That word knowledge, when it was added into the core competencies last year, and it created quite a stir within the coaching community, was because what we have always based this profession on is to not share knowledge, that we don't need to have the information. And so this is another shift because we've always been this partnership and the sharing of knowledge becomes hierarchical. And we've never been. We, coaches have never been hierarchical, because the knowledge isn't a part of it. And so there's yet that trend, too, that's coming up for me.
Speaker: I think that this is exactly where we are going to have to make a decision. Where do we go? What is the direction that we want to bring coaching? And to me, a decisive moment for me that I hope it's going to come in the next few years is when we sit down and as a community of coaches, we clearly define what is coaching mindset. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: I've said this before in previous episodes, that competency is not clearly defined to me. And I think that there are so many concepts that clearly identify or distinguishes coaching from any other profession. that we need to put in writing and put in our primary document, the the core competencies, so that we are very clear between what is coaching that we are talking about here, this human-to-human interaction, and what people call coaching, yeah but are not necessarily grounded in these concepts that our industry holds so dearly.
Speaker: I agree with you. And we have really had to battle that for how many years now, but even more so because it seems coaching as a whole, I think, has become more and more niched, where we have the health and wellness, that we have the somatic, we have the narrative, we have the strength base, we have the value base, I mean, and all valid.
Speaker: And we have to educate people anyone, everyone, as to what the more professional coach does. And it's not about being what I call a coach sultanate.
Speaker: I always say that coaching as a profession is still a teenager. We are still trying to define our identity. We still have our insecurities. We are still trying to prove to the world that we are valued, that we are legitimate. There is still a little bit of that, a little bit of an identity crisis that we need to...
Speaker: Talk more about it and solidify. This is not a question of this is pure coaching or this is ICF coaching. There is a practice here that started getting formalized 30 years ago.
Speaker: And we are steering the development of what is this practice. We have ah a sense, especially us that have been in this industry for quite some time, we have a sense of what that is. And we have talked about it. But there is more to flesh it out so that there is no confusion.
Speaker: So that the world, so that our clients, so that organizations, so that ourselves, ourselves as coaches, understand and are clear about what it means,
Speaker: So that we can provide this amazing service to our clients without confusion. That's what I hope for the future. I appreciate your your analogy of of this, ah you know, the profession being a teenager.
Speaker: My hope is that that we don't lose ourselves in the midst of trying to fit in anywhere, everywhere. So i'm I'm hoping that it's the teenager who finds the really solid group of friends that can take them in a path that's going to be really positive and productive.
Speaker: And I would hate to think that the pioneers, the OGs that the profession has had back in 19, whatever, 94, 95, see this progression or these progress the the progressions that are being made as being positive and purposeful and meaningful.
Speaker: versus trying to blend in and fit in because the fitting in can blur the lines. You want to belong, which is different than fitting in based on the Brene Brown work that that I know many of your listeners have read. There's a difference between belonging and fitting in. And i would want to belong, not just to fit in.
Speaker: My friend, thank you so much for this conversation. And thank you so much for sharing your experience and sharing your wisdom here with us. We will, of course, have you back.
Speaker: ah And you know that you are always welcome to come and share your thoughts with us here. I'm happy to come back anytime, Elias. Thank you. Listeners, thank you so much for listening and thank you so much for sharing these episodes with your fellow coaches.
Speaker: Don't forget to subscribe and click your like so that you can help us promote this program a little bit more. I will talk to you next week.
