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S3 Ep229: RSS - October - Eric
82 Plays3 years ago
Join Dave, Jake, and special guest Eric as they talk about old games, going pro, making dough, Overwatch, chess, a wedding of future-past, and even more in this week's episode!
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Transcript
00:00:11
Speaker
Bye!
Introduction and Banter
00:00:34
Speaker
How's it going, everyone? Welcome to another episode of Soapstone. My name is Jake. I'm joined by my co-host, as always, Dave. How's it going tonight, Dave? Jake, is that you? I see... I think I drank too much. I'm seeing two people on the screen. I don't have a filly's hat, though. Who's that? Who do you see? Tell me, who do you see? I see you. Oh, for the audio listeners, I see Eric. What's happening? What's going on, man? For the video listeners of the podcast,
00:01:03
Speaker
I have more questions and answers for the audio listeners of the podcast.
Nostalgia: Coffee and Classic Games
00:01:08
Speaker
Great to, great to be heard. How you fellas doing tonight? I'm doing pretty well. I mean, that was my question, but I guess I'm doing pretty well. Got, got my, my coffee here. Got puppy running around, although she's pretty calm right now, which is good for recording a podcast. Um, and.
00:01:27
Speaker
You know, got some weak plans. I'm sure we'll get into those later, but these plans are strong. Fuck you, Jake. I spent some time on Wednesday's been busy.
00:01:43
Speaker
Yeah, just working, making other calls for stuff. A little stressful, but nothing too crazy. But don't gotta do shit tomorrow or the day after that. Thank goodness. Well, what you should do tomorrow is what I had a chance to do last night. Digging through some of the old paraphernalia that I got video game wise, transport myself
00:02:12
Speaker
back to 1992 and dusted off the Super Nintendo bust out lost Vikings. Okay. Pilot wings and jungle strike. Don't suggest that one, but pilot wings and the lost Vikings to still fantastic games to, to make you transport back to the early nineties when you don't have a thing going on the next day.
00:02:40
Speaker
you don't have any cares cause you're a kid cause it's the nineties and just everything's right with the world. And all that matters is just you and that CRT that gets a little bit too warm if you stand too close to it and just those cartridges that you gotta, you gotta blow into them one more time. And this next time it's going to turn on. I know it because it's going to work, but that's, that's the biggest thing that you had to worry about back then. And that was nice to,
00:03:09
Speaker
Take some time to relive that moment, even just for a little bit.
Retro Gaming Memories
00:03:14
Speaker
Yeah, I really loved growing. I didn't grow up with it specifically. Like it wasn't in my house, but every summer when I go and visit my cousin up in the attic was like a Nintendo and a Super Nintendo. And we would just blow the cartridges and try and like get them in there. And he doesn't listen. Fuck him. But I feel like cartridges back then were what USB 2.0 is today. You're like, this will work.
00:03:40
Speaker
Uh-huh. Flip it around. Flip it around. You gotta flip it three different times and it still won't work.
00:03:46
Speaker
Yeah, I like. But then it does. I'm a technology guy. It's no great feeling the way you phrased it. It wasn't entirely clear whether you're going to your cousin's attic in a separate house or if you visited your cousin in the attic of your own house, which was what I like to imagine. It's like, oh, yeah. I mean, if they were particularly good, you know, my mom doesn't. Yeah, there's a ladder directly to the one window. The parents are like in coming in the front door to everything.
00:04:15
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Well, it's an upgrade from his bedroom under the stairs that he used to have So, you know, it's really moving on up when you think about it. That's true I hope he doesn't get granted any powers and then seeks revenge on me I think I saw a documentary on that but I think I fell asleep or something. He seeks revenge on you is this I've actually never read Harry Potter, but I've seen the movies I have to assume that Voldemort and Harry Potter
00:04:43
Speaker
We're cousins. Oh, hey. You're showing the name there, man. Easy on those. V-Mort. This sounds like an energy drink that I would have nowadays. Have you tried V-Mort? Their flavors are pretty good. Raspberry? I like that one. I could totally see V-Mort in a gas station cooler. Yeah.
Games and Fast-food Promotions
00:05:06
Speaker
It's like way, way back next, like not even close to the Red Bulls or like anything that's like
00:05:12
Speaker
marketable. It's like, Oh yeah, these, these things, they expired two years ago, but they're still good. I promise. Says the guy who hasn't opened the case at all. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I didn't, I didn't, uh, I know we had a retro episode at some point, but I didn't really start playing games until like in 64. And even then I came in like a little bit late. I had to, uh, make all kinds of false promises to my parents to like pick it up from yard sale or something.
00:05:43
Speaker
Oh, there you go. I did a desperate Taco Bell attempt. I think it was Taco Bell. They had like those scratch off. Maybe you win a game console things. Oh, you had to assemble like the word Nintendo or something like that, or Nintendo 64. Oh, that sounds right. So you had to like get the letters or whatever. It could have been McDonald's now that I'm thinking about it. But like. Yeah, it sounds like the the Monopoly thing, but you get a console instead of. Yeah, that's what it was ripped off.
00:06:08
Speaker
Yeah, they were two different things. I know Taco Bell had one that was just scratch off and then collect the letters. I almost wonder if that wouldn't pass these days, right? Like, I guess I don't know if they've done it for a while, but it really is almost loot boxes, right? Because some of the letters were just super, super uncommon. They're like, yeah, let's print five.
Console Evolution and Gaming Progression
00:06:28
Speaker
Oh, whatever. There's five O's and you have to spell out Monopoly. There can be two and two and a half winners. I know. I feel like you can maybe forge it, though. Just like drawing. This isn't like it's very clearly Sharpie. Oh, yeah. I want to remember. Yeah, it's it's a word.
00:06:56
Speaker
Oh, my God. It's like, hey, read 10 books and you can have a free personal pan pizza from pizza. Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, my goodness. Because all they had for that was a special hole punch. And by special, I mean you could have gone to Michael's or something, I imagine, and just be like, yes, I've been here 10 times or I've read 10 books or whatever the criteria was. You're going to lie to the book it, people. Man, you got a special place in hell if you do something like that, though.
00:07:24
Speaker
They're just going to take a look now. I almost have a hotel there. They're just going to take a look at it and they're just like analyzing and stuff like this was not a librarian hole punch. And then they just hand it back to you and they stare at you until you leave. I figured the officer would just cuff you right on the spot. What are you in for? It's coming right for me. I don't know if it has drink you. I feel like I need a beverage now.
00:07:52
Speaker
You got to be sipping on some. Well, if you want, I can ramble while you go grab a beverage. I could tell you my video game starts here where I had started back on, um, my one cousin who lived, uh, across town, he had, he was, they were a little bit older. So they had an original Nintendo. Okay. And, um, when we'd go and visit, we'd all be hanging out and playing and, you know, having like a two year old play a video game is kind of,
00:08:22
Speaker
a stretch for the term there, but they had, they had, of course they had Super Mario Brothers. And I think they had a cartridge that had like that and Duck Hunt. And, um, I don't know if it was on the same cartridge, but they also had track and field
Esports and Traditional Sports Comparison
00:08:38
Speaker
on Nintendo, which had like the precursor to what a DDR mat is. There was like a four by four grid of circles and you could do hurdles and a hundred meter dash and
00:08:52
Speaker
we did the 100 meter dash by having us, like all the cousins together, just smashing on one of the pads as fast as humanly possible. And the player would just like rocket across the screen. This is almost like a prototype Mario party thing, or it's just like, okay, mash button. Yeah, pretty much. So we did that a lot. And then our first system in our household, we had the Super Nintendo. And then we were Nintendo kids all the way up
00:09:22
Speaker
until PlayStation 2 because Grand Theft Auto 3 wasn't on the Nintendo GameCube. We just had to have that. Yeah, GTA, there's a 0% chance I would have been able to sell my parents on GTA. I think the first several GTA games I played were all pirated, and that was the only way I would be able to receive them.
00:09:48
Speaker
It definitely took some convincing as a 12 year old to say, no, it's okay that I'm playing a game that you kill hookers and run over people. Everything's totally fine.
00:10:01
Speaker
Somehow it worked. What does the 18 on this box say? You're like, yeah, I guess it would have been an M. It's M for me. It's hours of play time. It's rated me. 18 in-depth story missions. I think GTA is the one game we probably, I don't know if we've ever even mentioned it on the podcast. We did for the ratings episode. Oh yeah, yeah, for hot coffee and stuff like that.
00:10:35
Speaker
Yeah, that's kind of funny because I was talking to, um, I don't talk about work usually, but I had a one-on-one with someone and I was talking, we ended up talking about the GTA hot coffee scandal in the middle of the one-on-one because it was one of the better, better one-on-ones, right? And that was just, it was really hilarious to be talking about that in the middle of work day.
00:10:55
Speaker
I envy your coworkers. I feel like I don't have that close a relationship with anybody at work. Well, it was from a well, not educational, but more like a scholarly standpoint. We're just like, oh, yeah, what were the impacts of this on the rating systems of different countries and things like that? It wasn't like boobies, you know, right? I also like to go high pitch whenever I say boobies.
The Life of Professional Gamers
00:11:23
Speaker
I don't know if it's possible to say that word in a low pitch of voice because like, you know, it's just, it's too goofy in a word to have any base in it. Yes. You can't go boobies. It's like your eyes open. It just, it doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense. It sounds wrong. You're going to pop a blood vessel and either definitely going to hurt yourself equally. So in either of those cases,
00:11:48
Speaker
Yeah. So Eric, you mentioned that you started out Nintendo and then you switched to PlayStation. Did you ever venture into Xbox or did you like end up settling on a given quote unquote console for the concept around a bit, um, in the late 2000s? Cause we had, we had the PS two. And then, um, I think the next one that I got was a 360 because I remember I had,
00:12:17
Speaker
the 360 early through college, and we played, funny enough, GTA IV, since it was on that. I had a group of friends that played that. One of the really fun early Xbox titles that I played online was this mech warrior game called Chromehounds, where you spent way too long trying to maintain these mechs and customize every little thing that
00:12:46
Speaker
you're not actually going to see during gameplay. That was an absolute blast. I'd like to see another mech game like that, but I guess the closest one is that not even really the same genre, but it's still a mech game. The new Gundam game, what is that, Gundam Revolutions? I think Gundam Overwatch spin-off, I call it. Yeah, I have it downloaded, but I haven't launched it yet.
00:13:13
Speaker
I want to get a group together to just play it because I feel like it would be entertaining for a couple hours. Um, what if we do it for a next land? We could organize something for that because it has like local or apparently.
00:13:30
Speaker
There are some people that don't enjoy some of the games that we play at LAN, like Team Fortress 2. Oh my god, he's been listening to the episodes. I heard what you said. It's an old game. It's dated, I know. But it allows everybody to play. But there are still now less people that play that than Overwatch 1. So there's no reason to hold on to it beyond nostalgia.
00:14:00
Speaker
Yeah. I just like anything that can typically have lobbies. Uh, and I'm not shit at. I need, I need some degree of competence or competency like to be able to jump in. I don't care if I'm like good or bad, but if I'm like dog shit, it's harder for me to like get on the fun train. If I just feel like I'm losing constantly, you know, that's understandable for sure.
00:14:24
Speaker
TF2 is, uh, I think it's easier to rag on it now. Like the difference between Dave and I, when we're like ragging on TF2 is I don't know if Dave's ever really liked TF2. If I can throw them under the bus, I put like thousands of hours into TF2 and then I learned to dislike it.
00:14:40
Speaker
And it's not even that I dislike it. I still think it can be fun, but in specific circumstances. And we always do turbine, capture the flag, and it's always engineered. That could use a little bit of variety. I think we could mix it up. Yeah, I think certainly if we end up doing that again, we should mix it up. I'll have to talk to our sys admin about getting things changed for that.
00:15:07
Speaker
That's fair. But yeah, I don't I don't mean to gripe because I mean, it's still an entertaining. It's still fun to play with people. So like, I don't know, there's a certain level of ceremony to it being the first game in the kickoff. And like Ian and I can just empty people's will to play the game like as soon as we reach that point. Right. It's just like, all right, we're going to go engineers. We're going to go spies. We're just going to stop.
00:15:31
Speaker
playing the game as and basically like cease the point of engagement for other people. Like they're no longer playing like some sort of asymmetrical balance thing. It's just like, did you get a medic? Did you coordinate? If not, I mean, what are you going to do? Yeah, it's it feels weird at a point when there's a spy in the game, because I'm the older I get, the less FPS inclined I feel like Destiny 2 is like the best I can do right now. And like I need to be in the zone to be
00:16:01
Speaker
hitting my head shots or whatever, but it's usually I'll just use a chain gun, so I'm less likely to miss consistently. He's underselling himself. I know that he's rated within the last couple of weeks. It's like, it's right there. Oh yeah, I'm pretty good at the game. But I was gonna say, it's weird when I have to like think about, oh, there's multiple people I have to worry about, and then like how my weapon fires, how their weapons fire. And then I also have to worry about somebody who may or may not be a teammate. And I'm like, just doing like these quick checks. I'm like, I don't know.
00:16:32
Speaker
And then you're going to round the corner into a turret and you're like, okay. You're going to sound like a casual though, compared to Eric here. Cause I have it on good authority that Eric is actually a CSGO master. Like, and I don't even know what the ranks are. Uh, well, I was the highest I had ever been competitively in CS was gold Nova one, which was.
00:16:54
Speaker
A grand total of one match because I lost the very next match. So I got ranked up to that and got kicked right back into Silver's. See for me, who doesn't know the ranks, that sounds pretty good. Cause Nova is a sniper in Blizzard games and snipers are usually accurate. So that means you have really good accuracy. I guess so. Yeah. Yeah. So let's go with that.
Balancing Gaming and Life
00:17:16
Speaker
That's totally what it was. I was really, really accurate for one match and then the next matches.
00:17:21
Speaker
Um, I just kind of played with a track pad instead who would have thunk it. It might be a little more challenging, but yeah, if, if they had those rankings back in like Oh, six to 2010, I probably would, I would have liked to think I'd be way higher. And if the competitive scene was where it is today back in
00:17:49
Speaker
2006 through 2008, they probably would have had a slightly different career path. I'd like to think. Yeah. Good gun pro. But prize pools back then were like $500 and now prize pools are like six figures for CS.
00:18:06
Speaker
get like a packet of Twinkies or something. Like there you go. Have fun. Yeah. It's like half of the bus fare to get to the vet to compete. Thanks for showing up. That actually the reward is the bus ticket home. Pretty much. Yeah. For events like that, it's, it's like, all right, well, let's, I know I've done that for, um, when I competed in hockey tournaments, the prize pools aren't phenomenal. So it's like, all right, well,
00:18:35
Speaker
We want to play for free, so we better win. Right. Never won. I mean, I only competed in one tournament. So I wasn't ever that good, but I know other people that have competed in multiple and usually you, you, you play so that you can pay for your room and for your drinks for the weekend.
00:18:55
Speaker
I like the idea of having enough money in case I lose, but then finding out that you financially accounted for that and you're like, well, it's just on my wins. Yeah, just put it on my wins. It's essentially just getting free money, but you're working for the money. We work for the money. I like the idea of winning a tournament though.
00:19:18
Speaker
Like I miss the days of I feel like Left 4 Dead 2 is probably the game I grinded the most. Yeah. Or maybe Modern Warfare 2. But this is like all back in college when it's just straight FPS all the time. It is funny because like the people have been tryharding in video games for a very long time, but you're right in that like they have not really been compensated. Even now there's most games you're not going to get good compensation or like a very livable wage.
00:19:46
Speaker
But I recall sometime after graduation, I was like, we got some numbers posted for like pro Dota team player salaries. And they were like significantly less money than I was making like right out of graduation. And it really does kind of,
00:20:05
Speaker
It kind of like lends perspective to the people who are like choosing this as a career path. Like they, you have to legitimately love the game and then either, I mean, in Dota's case, it got really profitable if you were the best, if you made it to the international in the same way, like that money flows into CSGO. I think they use a similar model now to like the, to the past, but like.
00:20:28
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. It was kind of eye-opening at the moment. I was like, I can kind of just like nine to five it, do a job, get some work done and then play video games and not feel super stressed out about it. And there's people who are like grinding out these games all the time and they're making like half the money I make or something. Just crazy. That's not uncommon for more traditional sports either. If you look at minor leagues for baseball, I mean, first you look at the major leagues and those guys make like millions upon millions of dollars because
00:20:58
Speaker
they scratch themselves while getting a ball thrown in their direction. But then in the minor leagues, their salary is so low that they'll often just like room with several other teammates. And you just hope that you work your way up the system. It's like baffling how little some of those guys get paid. And it's not a surprise that in other esports that it's pretty much the same case.
00:21:28
Speaker
But still it shows a lot to somebody's passion for a given thing like that. They're willing to essentially start at that high risk, low payout in the hopes of if I invest enough time and money into this, it will pay off in the long scheme of things. Cause I'm very risk averse. I would like to blame my Jewish heritage, but I think it's just me as a person. Um, I don't like gambling on shit. Uh, so I'd rather have security versus.
00:21:56
Speaker
Security is gambling in general. If you had to say, hey, I'm going to stop my job to play this one game and have it be financially profitable, what would that be for you? One game. Oh, dang. Yeah, you got to put
Chess and Cheating Scandals
00:22:16
Speaker
all your marbles in one basket to make that kind of money.
00:22:20
Speaker
To buy, to buy Eric time while we think about this, that's the part that makes it really tough is like the advantage to not going pro is you can play games for fun. Right. Like, like for people who have gone pro in Dota, it's like, what are they going to switch to league? Are they going to leave the organization? Like what, what if they start having more fun with a different game? It literally looks like a mark against them if they're not grinding out the game.
00:22:46
Speaker
I don't think you can switch from one major MOBA to another without static because typically people who are in camp dota are not in camp league of legends. So you'd lose a lot of your audience and traction there, I think. I think the game, if I had to choose one, I know we mentioned it earlier, I'd probably pick counter strike just because I've been playing it for, oh my God, 18 years now. I've been learning the game and there's.
00:23:16
Speaker
there's been a scene competitively for that for 15 years. And it's, I would like to think it's not going to go anywhere. There's these new games like the CS killer that everyone says with Valorant that has a scene. I don't know that it's that big. I could be wrong. Um, I think it's pretty big, but I don't know if it's a killer, right? Like any game. Um,
00:23:43
Speaker
But you figure that's going to be around and that's where, you know, that's the most stable out of pretty much anything. I thought that Overwatch was going to be really stable because they, they went so hard into making an e-sport and making things as marketable as possible. And they just threw that out the window as hard as they possibly could with the Overwatch 2 stuff.
00:24:10
Speaker
I don't know why they keep tripping on their own fucking shoelaces. Tie your goddamn shoes. I feel like it's so easy to just tie your shoes and just, yeah, they, they straight up just killed the golden goose with it. It's, it just makes no, not just the most recent decisions that have, that have gone on with the launch. And I think there was some news out today about people accidentally buying things on their account and Blizzard just saying, Oh,
00:24:37
Speaker
No, you intended to buy it. We promise. We're not going to refund you.
00:24:41
Speaker
Taking a step back from that. Just as an interjection, what the bug was, I did read about it. And it's because if you're in the shop and you buy something, you can apparently confirm with double spacebar. But there is a bug if you were chatting where it was sending your inputs to both chat as well as the shop UI. So if someone hits spacebar twice, as you know you might do in a conversation, that could literally purchase something with real life funds.
00:25:13
Speaker
Whoops. Man, fuck that game. Like a part of me wants to be social and play with people. On the other hand, like I really don't have any more fucks to give in the blizzard space. So like I want to play other stuff with people, but I also don't want to like rip people away from that. If they're still having fun with it, by all means, have fun with it. It's just harder for me to jump on board. It makes sense.
00:25:41
Speaker
It's, you also have other avenues where you have, uh, destiny two already. And there was a group for that. Like I would, I would probably jump into overwatch two sooner than destiny two, just because of my familiarity with, with that franchise and my unfamiliarity with destiny two. But that's, that's just my perspective. And I totally get all the frustration for Blizzard, which is incredibly justified, but
00:26:10
Speaker
Now, one of these days I'll probably get around to launching Overwatch 2, maybe, just because it's good having a group to play games with. And right now, my latest action on PC has been Sea of Thieves. And more often than not, it's harder for people to carve out two or three hours of time to jump in for a session on that. But then you can bust out like an Overwatch match
00:26:39
Speaker
10, 15 minutes. I don't know how long they are in Overwatch 2 now. If it's comparable, I would think. You can just do like pickups for that and it's nothing. That's what's nice. If you have enough of a group and you can do like a 15 minute game, you're set. But you also need to like not alienate your
00:27:03
Speaker
your user base. So that would probably be a good idea. Yeah, that's the struggle. I don't think we've talked about it much post launch. I haven't, I haven't played since it launched either. I mean, I've obviously been on the Destiny train, like you mentioned, but like Overwatch is still a very approachable game.
00:27:20
Speaker
Absolutely. And like you mentioned pickups and like as people have less time to play games or they come in maybe a little bit later, that's one of the issues I kind of have with Sea of Thieves is like there's no let's upgrade our ship option really. It's start a new site like should we cash out now so we can like pull another person in for the larger size.
00:27:43
Speaker
Or as Overwatch, it's just like, oh, you're between matches? Yeah, just literally join on us. Just hop in the next. Yes, exactly. Or leave the next, right? Like, leaving is not a big deal. Again, on CFE side, you're just like, all right, we're all in a freaking galley. Leaving is a very big deal in CFE. Yeah, you're just like, C, yeah. And it sucks for everybody else because, I mean, how are they going to manage a larger ship with fewer people? But, like,
00:28:12
Speaker
It's a, it's a big part of it. It's one of the reasons I kind of have enjoyed playing games that are dying or dead as stupid as that sounds to say. Like I like playing hots cause nothing really changed. Really easy to play bot games or whatever, versus AI and Starcraft and you know, things that required less commitment are much easier to swing now. Oh, for sure. I guess that's.
00:28:38
Speaker
part of the magic of growing up is you have to choose your time more wisely for gaming. Can't just be like, Oh, Friday night, I get two and a half days nonstop. You have other talk about right, Dave? Yeah. Yeah. Super busy all the time. Um,
00:28:58
Speaker
I feel like I have too much free time right now. I like I need to pick up other hobbies or responsibilities or something or get a fucking vacuum for this new apartment and actually, you know, clean ones. But I don't even find all that free time that I have used up with video games because it's like mentally allocate. I want to like sit down, you know, grind out some Elden Ring or play some Destiny 2 with people or do a raid.
00:29:26
Speaker
But then a lot of times I just want to like relax in other ways. That's not where I don't have to engage as much, which is like, Oh, watch a show on YouTube or Netflix or just go on a walk or cook something, just change of pace. It's laid back, not actively trying to get my best game or score. Vacuuming is certainly a good hobby. I know another good hobby that you can pick up with some of your spare time. Um, I, I, um, I know it's,
00:29:55
Speaker
Not a surprise for me to talk about this, but chess is always an easy thing to pick up. It's the same rule set that's been around for about 500 years or so, or maybe I think 400 years. I forget when the latest change was in place waiting for chess too. Still, that's going to be nuts when that comes out.
00:30:13
Speaker
People don't use the original rule set. People play fast chess and like crazy chess and 4D
Cheating in Video Games
00:30:21
Speaker
chess. And I definitely said chess in there, but like those are the types I see at least.
00:30:30
Speaker
That's it. That's the end of my discussion on chess. You guys can carry it from here out. I'm going to take five. I'll be back. So I know I did get a chance to talk to you about this briefly in person, but I did want to ask again for sake of podcast content and see if you had any more updates regarding the whole Magnus Carlsen and the Wi-Fi butt plug debacle for those that are
00:30:56
Speaker
under a rock with how much this news has spread. I'm trying to think, when did this start? This is like a month or two ago, I think it was. And Magnus Carlsen, the current world champion, was playing a game against a 19-year-old kid named Hans Nieman. And this Nieman guy has been rocketing up the ratings in a rather uncharacteristic way.
00:31:27
Speaker
And he managed to place a game against Carlson and he's making all of these crazy, crazy moves that, you know, um, in, at, after the game, even he can't explain and it's like, hold on a second. So Carlson's like really shaken up by this. He's like, I don't know if something isn't right about this guy. And he ended up withdrawing from that tournament after that game. Cause he is just too mentally frazzled after that, but he doesn't say why.
00:31:57
Speaker
He just says, I, I no longer want to compete in this tournament. And later on things are going on. Our news comes out and everyone's like, okay, there's this guy. Has he cheating somehow? Cause they were playing over the board, which is not impossible, but very challenging to cheat in. And you need like a lot of coordination to do it. Everyone had all these different speculations and, um, noted,
00:32:25
Speaker
jabroni, Elon Musk speculated that Neiman had a wifi enabled butt plug that was telling him the moves to do based on the position on the board. Stop it. Later on, there was a report from chess.com that finally came out about a week or two ago.
00:32:51
Speaker
that said that, yeah, this dude almost certainly cheated in like a hundred games and we aren't going to have him in some of these tournaments coming up. And do they actually have any proof to say why or is it kind of like if they kick you out of a casino because you're just doing really well, you can, the proof that they would have, and I wish I had the report up in front of me, I'm just too lazy to type before it. They would, um,
00:33:20
Speaker
They would have a team of grandmasters and international masters and other title players convene and look back onto his games and compare and see, OK, which ones have things stick out? Are there any moves that are uncharacteristic of his play style, which when you get to that high of a level, you can kind of determine those things, which I am absolutely nowhere near.
00:33:49
Speaker
You could also run through games and have an engine run through them at the same time. And if things are one-to-one, then you can kind of make a bit of a determination there and say, hey, wait a minute. He might be getting some kind of assistance. Right. So that report came out, and there's also other people that are coming out with cheating allegations, including International Master,
00:34:19
Speaker
I'm going to butcher this name Joachim Nielsen, who is the current or as of October 6th, the current president of the Norwegian chess Federation, um, had cheating allegations against him. So it's like, everything's crumbling down. It's it pretty much, uh, reminds me of, uh, the Lance Armstrong doping stuff that pretty much just shook cycling to its core.
00:34:48
Speaker
And it would suck to see it have a similar fate because there's still a lot of really great players that have accomplished incredible things. But you know, you get these guys that just sully it, but it's, it's not to the same degree as cycling where pretty much you had to cheat in order to be successful.
00:35:07
Speaker
Yeah. In some of those physically competitive sports, um, it's not uncommon to hear stuff about, Oh, people are juicing or doing something else to give them an edge. Well, at least like a lot of that stuff is like P testable. I don't think you can P test for chess. Not really. You can, you can run it through a computer and that's the closest you can do. It's, I would hope that statistics, not. Yeah.
00:35:36
Speaker
certainly don't have a P test at the board that would just make things really awkward. I feel like so I actually I've said I was going to take five, but I did listen. And I've even I have heard some stuff about this and how it's how it's unfolding. It does kind of suck for him that like he he kind of is being hit on all sides here without anyone really
00:36:05
Speaker
coming forward with proof that he did anything wrong. So the chess.com thing, like they saying like, hey, he's in his behavior here, he's cheated more than he says he has, but that's like different, right? It's different than like the over the board allegations. And I know that he's still playing games, but like straight up
00:36:25
Speaker
When you have that much clout on Magnus's side, like you can just ruin someone's career with an implication. Right. Oh, yeah. So he's got to be he's got to be right about this or he's just like an absolute douchebag because like.
00:36:43
Speaker
If he's in that position as the champion of chess, and there's someone who legitimately beat him on an instance, and he's like, no, he cheated. And then that leads to this swirling and downfall of this guy's career. And then proof doesn't come out. That's like playground strats, right? That's like saying, hey, we should recount these votes. Just saying. If I do lose, it's because somebody cheated.
00:37:12
Speaker
Yeah. That's a huge thing that, that Magnus wanted to avoid because after he withdrew, like he posted a, I mean, he kind of did in a ham fisted way, but he withdrew from the tournament in a tweet and he had a video clip of, um, a soccer manager that was like, I prefer really not to speak. If I speak, I am in big trouble now that I actually have the report up. These, this happened in early September.
00:37:42
Speaker
So it's like he's, he's saying, he's saying that he cheated without saying that he cheated. And from September 5th through the October 4th, when this report came out, everything was like, Oh my God, is he cheating? And he, even Nieman had admitted in the past of cheating, but now they came out and was like, Hey, here's exactly how many games we think that Hans Nieman cheated. And it's like over a hundred. It's, it's kind of baffling.
00:38:14
Speaker
Yeah, I remember he admitted for like a couple times when he was younger, but never over the board. I think is what he said. All right. I want to ask for the chess audience and myself included, what does over the board mean? Oh, sorry. So over the board means instead of playing online in a browser, you're physically playing in the same space together. So if you think of what a normal chess game is, so two people on a board and, um,
00:38:42
Speaker
in a tournament center, you also write down your moves and there's a clock and that's it. That's, that's what over the board is. And it is, like I mentioned, it is possible to cheat over the board. There was wifi. There's another way that you can cheat over the board where there was a national team of a European team that was, that had been found cheating only because one of the team members came out with the news that they had cheated.
00:39:13
Speaker
And how they did it is they had their team of four compete against another national team of four. So there was eight players sitting at four different tables. They would have a specific board that they would focus on for this cheating to, to be successful. And the coach of the team would come in, see what's going on, but he wasn't able to communicate in the tournament hall because they wouldn't allow devices in there, understandably.
00:39:43
Speaker
Like if you were competing and you're staring at your phone, people are going to have some questions. So the coach would see what's going on, come out of the tournament hall and communicate electronically with other team members or just somebody offsite and say, here's the position. What's the best move? And they'd give him the info. Then he would come back in and he would stand behind one person to determine
00:40:12
Speaker
what column or rank or actually it's final. And then he'd move to another person to say, well, here's the row for the rank that you, that is the square that you want to focus on. And then maybe they had another way to say, Oh, this specific piece. But if you're told about a certain square, you probably know which piece is going to go there. So they would do like, how in the world are you going to be able to detect that? That's a team event. I don't know how in the world,
00:40:42
Speaker
you would do something like that for just a one-on-one game. You have to go down to the coaches if they leave and come back. Exactly. Just knock them out right on site. I'm going to go out on a limb and say they have better call outs and communication than we do on Destiny 2 raids. That's pretty impressive. That would be the call out. It's like up bird, back right. And they're like, what are you talking about?
00:41:08
Speaker
That's crazy though. Go for checkmate. The only cheating stuff in gaming in general that I've ever really witnessed or encountered is typically just fall guys, where it's blatantly obvious that somebody is cheating because they can't lose, they have all these advantages type thing. I technically get the point of why you would do that to grind out, oh, I want to get crowns for cosmetics or something in a game like that.
00:41:38
Speaker
in most games where it's like competing like if I was playing arrogant something I would want to like kick his ass cleanly because I want him to like have that feeling next time he sees me he's like I'm gonna kick his ass at that game I like that friendly rivalry and I like knowing that I won with my own skill and ability versus I pulled one over on somebody because like it's it feels so hollow to me and
00:42:04
Speaker
So this is a deeply personal question, but it is a segue back to the things that we were talking about. Have you guys, and we can choose to redact it if you need to afterwards, I understand. Have you guys ever cheated in video games? Not in video games, no. Okay, cut this, cut this. Maybe like cheese or glitch some stuff in like a single player thing, but never that I can recall in multiplayer stuff.
00:42:33
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. I didn't even mean multiplayer, honestly, just including single player. Cause I've had like a game shark. Okay. So yeah, with that I had, but like not since and 64. So I didn't go like download any wall hacks or anything. Yeah. I just didn't want to put in the whole goddamn mega man code. It's like 16 different things. Get out of here. No, it's too much.
00:43:02
Speaker
The life lesson, the moral, the fable, if you will, coming off of this, is I did the same thing. I played those games with GameSharks, and sometimes I played the game legit first, or I tried to play through it legit until I got to something that was harder than I cheated. But what I found, and particularly the army men games for PC, like army men, army men 2, army men toys in space, all that stuff. For the console ones, you guys are probably more used to Air Attack, Sargis Heroes, things like that. Yeah.
00:43:30
Speaker
But what I found is if I started the game and I immediately started cheating, the game was one really short. If you can just skip to the next level, most games don't last that long. But also there's the complete removal of the context and challenge and always putting yourself in this meta
00:43:55
Speaker
mindset while you're playing the game. You can't be immersed in something when you're cheating, right?
Humorous Gaming Exploits
00:43:59
Speaker
You're literally breaking the rules of the game.
00:44:05
Speaker
Lisa? Wait, did I cheat for Lisa? I can't remember. You did like a speed mod for it. Oh, yeah. It's actually cheating though. Yeah. I mean, technically. So what I was using is I use cheat engine and I use a speed hack to make the video right here. Here's the guy. And I use the speed hack because you could play the game at like 2x speed or something like that.
00:44:28
Speaker
I now I am remembering I did cheat in Starcraft single player because they had like granted I swear it was in the fucking manual like hey here are you know cheats for power overwhelming like you can't die I'm like I would like that please some of these harder levels are very very hard for 13 year old me mm-hmm yeah I would bust out the game shark like if if you already completed with the game
00:44:59
Speaker
I would like to think that I didn't use those sheets to like advance a story, but at, you know, that was what 15, 20 years ago. I'm not going to remember stuff like that. Right. I have no recollection. That's a fair thing to say. That's a good legal defense. I like that. Yeah. I cannot recall. Uh-huh. Yeah. I take your question. Yeah.
00:45:29
Speaker
But I mean, obviously, it's a very different scenario when you're talking about anything actually multiplayer. Cheating theirs. You're harming your own, obviously, reputation, but you're showing that you also don't have the capability to play fairly and expect to win. Or if not that, you don't have any respect for your opponent.
00:45:52
Speaker
by using those underhanded means, even if you didn't care about the game, right? Like I think that's something that comes into video games a lot more is like people cheat and maybe they incidentally win, but they're cheating more to like grief other people as opposed to like, I'm just going to subtly win or something like that. And I mean, that's a dick move, right? Hot take. Spicy one right there. Yeah.
00:46:20
Speaker
Thankfully, I don't play games with other people anymore, so I'm mostly good. Literally, the Destiny thing is cheating if you describe it as such, I guess. Which is for Destiny. Like the skating, the movement tech. And I do use it to grief allies by just being like, don't you wish you could go 200 miles an hour? It's more funny than anything at this point.
00:46:46
Speaker
I'm gonna describe this to Eric. I'm gonna describe it to Eric. I don't know if we went into all the tech, but in Destiny, there's multiplayer game, right? Lots of things going on. There is a glitch where if you use a couple abilities and you equip a sword and swing a sword that has a particular perk that makes the sword have more range, and you use your super ability, which is like your ultimate at the same time,
00:47:11
Speaker
And you do all these inputs really quickly. You just fly across the map at 200 miles an hour. And you can use it for legitimately skipping some encounters, going to the end, things like that. But it's like a PvE game, primarily. You're not using this to kill people in PvP.
00:47:31
Speaker
Or anything. Who cares? If you could rocket your body at 200 miles an hour and someone's like, how did I die? Right. It's just it's just a double KO and it would be amazing.
00:47:42
Speaker
But like, we'll be like running a raid or something. The last time I did it, we were running a raid and we were just telling some of the new people how the encounters go. And I just like would stand on top of something in this relatively small room and like death propel myself into a wall repeatedly. Like people would be reviving me and then just like right back into it dead while Ian's trying to describe this. Hilarious. I think it's hilarious. That's cheating for good.
00:48:10
Speaker
That reminds me of in the original Modern Warfare 2, the Commando perk, where your melee range was increased, but there was a bug where you could melee across the freaking map. Was it with the grenade call down, like the smoke flare or whatever? Or was that a different one I'm thinking of? That one... Because there's one where you go really fast, where you're holding an airdrop grenade, and you're just booking it across the map hunkered down.
00:48:41
Speaker
Oh, that was one of them too. I was thinking of the one where you have, uh, the javelin missile and you just run into enemies and on your death, the javelin missile explodes, which has the greatest radius. So it's just pretty much like a mini nuke on that side
Wedding Officiation Plans
00:48:58
Speaker
of them. Oh my gosh. I know it's a really good video that just showcases all the bugs at MW2 that the over the course, some of them still exist, but over the course of its life cycle.
00:49:10
Speaker
And it's like, how in the world did this ship...
00:49:14
Speaker
I mean, it's a good game. I really enjoyed it. I mean, as somebody who's worked on code, I get it. It happens. I freak it as an aside. I love the javelin. I remember a match where I was just basically using that as my weapon whenever possible. Like I would just try to fire it at a location and maybe someone ran into it, right? Because there's no predictive play whatsoever. It is so slow. It is not an anti-personnel weapon.
00:49:42
Speaker
But just it was worth it for the payoff, because if you somehow were so cursed as to be killed by a javelin explosion, like the kill cam showed the javelin missile coming down the entire time. And you're like, all right, will I stop here and get coffee? And then, you know, maybe I have a conversation with this person. And then I round the corner and the javelin hits. It was just really funny. It's definitely an uninstall the game moment. Uh huh.
00:50:08
Speaker
Yeah. That's why I like to play snake occasionally. Um, I do want to ask, do you guys have anything like cool coming up maybe like this weekend? No. Well, part of the reason that I was trying to remember simpler times is this weekend coming up. I have the incredible honor of officiating a wedding.
00:50:29
Speaker
Oh, damn, it's not that big. It's not it's not that it's not too much. Jake, Jake did it once was. No, it's it's it's it is an incredible honor. I know that we were going to spoil his name. So friend of the show, Landon is finally, oh, my gosh, having a ceremony. Yeah, I still call it getting married. Yes, getting married. I think it's probably better to say getting married.
00:50:59
Speaker
Now they get to put the rings on. It's as official as it gets. Who cares about the paperwork?
00:51:05
Speaker
It's true, yeah. Mostly the state taxes everybody. All of the nonsensical things are largely hinging on the paperwork, I guess. But no, I mean, I already said it in chat, but I think you're going to do an excellent job with it. And like in the scenarios that if I knew that you were available for like when I was an officiant, I would have been like, I know another guy.
00:51:34
Speaker
but pretty good. Oh my goodness, Jake, you don't have to keep propping me up. This every time I come onto this show, every time you just keep propping and propping. It's just too much, man. Oh my goodness. But if I didn't do this, then you wouldn't have come on as a guest in the very week that you're doing all of this work to prepare is in the vision. That's true. You have to suck up. You have to brown nose. It's how we get guests back. Well, I'm as, I'm as stocked up as I need to be. I have all the sailor Jerry that I would possibly need.
00:52:03
Speaker
And, uh, I'm not doing any of that stuff. It'll be straight laced. It'll be, it'll be wonderful. I'm very excited to be a part of everything. And, uh, it should be a fun time. It should be a really fun time. Should be some nice weather for it too. Um, it'll be interesting because now I've been, uh, groom groomsmen audience member, and I get to be an officiant. The only thing that's missing is this, uh, being a bridesmaid or something.
00:52:32
Speaker
Best bride. That's what they call it. Best bride. That's it. That's, that's the next step. And then I'll have my, um, um, I guess it'd be round the horn or something like that. I have that completed. So I have my punch card done. Yeah. You pretty much run the gambit on that.
00:52:51
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. The only, the only other thing is like successfully break up a wedding. That's for the achievement. You're like broken each of these things. You can be just like, all right, now sabotage a close friend's wedding. I don't think they even say that anymore. Typically. It's true. Yeah. I think they removed it with like the last 15 years. I don't think I've ever been to a wedding that's had that. Yeah.
00:53:14
Speaker
It's a big thing to be like, hey, does everyone want to stop this? You're like, what? No. So you dropped like $20,000 on this. What are you doing? From someone in the audience, right? Like, why would you grant them that power in that moment? Although, I mean, obviously it's not binding. You're just asking for.
00:53:34
Speaker
for trouble. Or you're flexing, right? It's kind of like a weird flex. You're like, see how many people we got together and none of them objected to our wedding? That means something, you know? I think you rephrase it to like, at this point, if you have any objections, stand up so we can collectively beat your ass. Yeah, pretty much. So we can continue with the ceremony. Uh-huh. Yeah, that's the humorous twist or something you'd want to throw on it.
00:54:03
Speaker
I don't think I'm going to include that as part of the speech, but what were you going to say, Dave? It's cool. Cause I've, I've had the chance to be a guest at many of these and like see now technically three different friends from college officiate. So I get to compare you all. Um, but I think everyone's been doing a kick-ass job and I think you're gonna, gonna crush it. Yeah.
00:54:28
Speaker
I give you full permission, even though I have no authority to, to slip in a penguin's joke, because I will probably also slip in a penguin's joke. There may or may not already be a penguin's joke written in to the ceremony script. You will have to, if you're listening to the release podcast, you'll have to go back in time to attend the ceremony to hear my speech. Yeah.
00:54:58
Speaker
This is really focusing in on our listenership. It's a very specific group of people, but you know what? That's what the segment's for, really. I was always thinking about it, because you asked if there was any advice. The only advice that I actually have, now that I'm literally in a public space- Is get absolutely plastered right before. Get plastered, yeah.
00:55:16
Speaker
It's hard to make it through all of these sappy events, you know, without it. But but no, I mean, like, if there's jokes, like putting a hook into being romantic again, because I remember I did that and that was a big thing. People love that. It was like, make some joke about, you know, social ineptitude or acceptance or something and then be like, just kidding. They're freaking great together or whatever. That's pretty useful. I have it.
00:55:46
Speaker
I have it pretty straight laced right now. There's like a little bit, but I'm, uh, right now I have it written where it's, um, more of, I guess what you would expect to hear, but it's not that long because there's not going to be any, like, uh, I don't think there's going to be any readings. Um, it's not like a big religious overtone. It's like, Hey, these guys are getting married. They're great. And, um,
00:56:15
Speaker
let's think about what marriage is on this day. Cause you know, they're getting married even though they've been married already. So it's great. It counts this time. Yeah. Now we've got the jewelry. So it's now now it's for realsies. That's true.
00:56:33
Speaker
I think the first pass, when I was writing one, had like a bunch of humor. It was like, I think Game of Thrones was happening at the time and we're just like, you know, like beneath the throne and all these things. And it was just like all these titles or whatever. And initially, friend of the show, this is Mike and Annie, friends of the show, and special guest on Mike's end. Like,
00:56:58
Speaker
They were like, OK, let's go for that. We'll lean more into all of this humorous stuff. And then as the date got closer, they're like, I mean, there's a lot of people attending.
00:57:10
Speaker
A lot of those are close family. Maybe it's okay if we take it seriously. I was like, okay, well we'll drag it back to like one friendly joke. And I think that was about all it was. That's the key though. As long as there's no surprises for the brighter groom or, you know, in this particular case, the brightened groom, then you're fine. Yeah, definitely don't need any surprises for them. They should be the least surprised out of everything. I'm trying to keep them informed.
00:57:39
Speaker
on everything that I'm doing here. Cause they, they have only about 10 million moving parts to deal with. Um, to my wedding, which is almost five years ago now, we had the day of coordinator, the DJ, the chef. Um, uh, I think we had four, no, three members of the wedding party on each side, the family,
00:58:09
Speaker
everything. It's too fricking much. And by the time you're done, it's, you know, you're standing up at the altar and you're like, thank goodness. I don't have to do anything anymore. All I had to do is stand here and look at you for the next 10 minutes. Uh-huh. And then we'll go and look at our food because I'm too exhausted to eat. That's what I was telling Landon. It's like, that's when the emotions really hit for me is in the, once you get to the stand here and look at the person part,
00:58:37
Speaker
It's like, okay, now I can slow down. I can stop thinking about the logistics, be here in the moment for a bit. And then once it's all done, just freaking leave, like have people prepared to take care of anything else that remains and just book it gone. Not everyone does that, but that's what we did. It's not a bad idea. Did you guys have a, did you have a car with a bunch of tin cans tied to the bumper?
Wedding Stories and Social Dynamics
00:59:04
Speaker
I think it was like, it might've just been like, um, tensile or something like that. I don't know if it was legitimately 10 cans, but that's really cool. Well, that's, that's awesome. Yeah. I think it was just for us, a very exhausting experience. And we have, we're introverts. So like, yeah, a wedding wedding's gotta be a lot for an introvert. Yeah. There's,
00:59:31
Speaker
150 people in your face saying, oh, congratulations, all competing to shake your hand and hug you. Uh huh. Yeah. It gives it, it gives a lot of perspective. So like weddings I've gone to since then I've been like very much not the person trying to monopolize any of like the bridal party's time, right? You're just like not of acknowledgement. I am here. I support you.
00:59:56
Speaker
I will not be in your hair. I'm not going to contribute to whatever you're dealing with right now. Also, hopefully, this is a happy day for you. Typically, the bridal party, but the bride and groom will make rounds, say hello to everybody and like, hey, thank you for coming out and being here with us. But I realized that they're doing that for every single person.
01:00:19
Speaker
Um, and like, I know these people, I'm going to see them again anyway. So like, Hey, like you look so great. I'm so happy for you. And then I'm like, that's it. And then if we, but I, I never assume when I go to wedding, I'm going to be seeing the brighter groom ever.
01:00:35
Speaker
At least see him at the altar. You should see him. You should see him at the altar. I can't assume that, but you don't want to be disappointed, so don't assume that. I just always figured that they're very busy with stuff. But the last wedding I was at a month ago, post-wedding stuff, he was going around like, hey, who's going to the bar afterwards? And everybody was like, yeah. All the young people who were still out on the dance floor until the venue closed were like, oh, let's go to a bar.
01:01:04
Speaker
So it was nice to like hang out in a different venue as well. And I was more laid back with just less people. Afterport is definitely the best place to actually see the bride and groom. Yes. Yeah, for sure. For sure. But
01:01:26
Speaker
I don't know, maybe we shouldn't dedicate this, this episode to the, to the wedding. Now I'm looking at it. Well, we talked about old video games. We talked about chess. We talked about cheating. Maybe we just leave it there and maybe just break that disassociation, but I wish them the best. Yeah. It seems, it seems like they got a good thing going on. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm sure it was a great wedding and this is not going to age super poorly, you know?
01:01:56
Speaker
I think I'm not going to talk about the fire that started. Well, we didn't start it. And that's the key part. In fact, it was already there. Did you see the three people that all got violently sick? Oh, my goodness. Right on the dance floor, too. It was wild. You never came. Never came. There's a ritual. Green flames rising. Oh, man.
01:02:24
Speaker
I think the best part was the, the deer that walked through the, uh-huh, through the ceremony area. That was interesting. Yeah. They actually brought it off. That was the crazy thing. It was a bold alternative to the car with the cans behind it as a departure, a departure mount. But I mean, it was, it was Disney-like. I'll say that. Yeah. I like when they walked under the archway of key blades.
01:02:54
Speaker
Okay, I can actually see that happening. I can see it. There's a risk that's actually involved somehow. There's definitely a non-zero chance that that actually is missing. I'll message Shane and be like, Shane, statistically you have one of these. Could you just bring it to the wedding just in case? Thanks. Oh my God. What if they use this song from Kingdom Hearts 1 during the ceremony?
01:03:19
Speaker
I mean, real talk. I bet you real money somewhere in the wedding or maybe it'll just be like a playlist for like the reception. It's coming up. It has got it. It just has to. Yeah. I mean, if there's not enough like relationship emotions to make Landon cry, then that'll do it. So it's fine. It's the backup plan. Really, really short song.
01:03:47
Speaker
Well, no, I mean, it's a very it's a good it's a great song. I mean, I also have cried to that song. So I I'd admit it. Unrelated reasons. But yeah, it was just a dark time in my life. And well, no, now now I listen to the song and I was like, man, the first game was so good and I never even finished the third game. Yes. But it's OK. Whoops. It's not. It's a terrible series. Freaking hey, Kingdom Hearts. Yeah.
01:04:17
Speaker
the only thing i know about it is the storyline makes as much sense as a fever dream uh-huh yeah i don't know fever dreams sometimes they make some sense that's the big difference fever dreams end at some point too don't they
01:04:32
Speaker
That's true. Yeah. It's been so many kingdom heart games. I would never buy fever dream merchandise. You know, I hope, I hope Landon does listen to this and he's just like, Oh, it's nice that they have all these good things to say. Why are they tearing into kingdom? Oh, well, it's because we care. Anyway, absolutely. I think that is a great note to end on. Uh, as always, I appreciate
01:05:01
Speaker
You stop and buy, gracing us with your presence, Eric. Next time we'll have to talk even more about the LAN meta. We have tons of ideas we can just throw at you. I do happen to have a few local to me LANs that I could promote, if you care. Oh, dang. Yeah. Well, are you talking about promoting them here or just like on the side? Here, I could just chat about them real quick.
01:05:30
Speaker
I mean, yeah, as long as they're not location specific, the reason there was that pause there, I was like, don't dox yourself. Whatever you do, just don't dox yourself when you're good. I think I'll chat with you later about them. Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. We can do the episode too. Yeah. Yeah. People people know that we're in Pennsylvania. That's it. That's as far as we've gotten. There was one time we kind of has been multiple times we let things slip, but we're pretty good at covering our tracks.
01:05:59
Speaker
I think. But if you guys have figured out where we live, you could send those in so that we could do a better job at covering our tracks in the future. So some podcast at gmail.com or join the discussion on Facebook, which incidentally is probably the better way to track most of us down now that I think about it at Facebook.com slash upstone podcast. And as always, we'll see you in the next one. Have a good night. See ya.
01:06:32
Speaker
the the
01:07:00
Speaker
you