Transcript
Speaker: Picture this. A woman gets her heartbroken, and instead of a slow, sad unraveling, she locks eyes with a rabbit. It just happens that this rabbit is possessed by the ghost of Caroline Lamb, a real historical woman famous for loving Lord Byron so obsessively it basically destroyed her life.
Speaker: That is the premise of Heatstroke, the debut novel from today's guest, Meredith Kuhn. So here's why I wanted to speak to Meredith, specifically for the show.
Speaker: Underneath the psychic bunnies and the Faustine bargains and the feral California excesses, this is a book, from my reading at least, about what happens in the space where connection is supposed to be.
Speaker: What a person reaches reaches for when the real thing isn't available. And that's a question that this podcast has been circling for eight years. And while there's obviously a number of answers to the question, Meredith comes with the talking bunny.
Speaker: So for my money, she's already way in the lead. ah ah some Some listeners may know her from the very first Main Street Author Talk that we did back in August.
Speaker: And tonight we're gonna be doing a more one-on-one long version. So just to dive in into the deep end, When real connection disappears, people will often reach for for whatever they can to fill that space. You know, it might be a habit, new or old.
Speaker: It might be a fantasy. It might be a rabbit possessed by a dead poet's muse. What made you trust fiction of all the forms that you could to tell the truth about that impact?
Speaker: Well, first of all, thanks for having me. course. It's great to be here. I think that's such a great question because What I'm writing about essentially is heartbreak. It's a major personal crisis.
Speaker: My main character and how she deals with it. And i trusted fiction to tell that story. And specifically, I write very campy, over-the-top, surreal, kind of weird fiction.
Speaker: And i really i really wanted to tell this story in that register because... I think when a person is heartbroken or they're having some kind of turmoil, the feelings they feel are so operatic and so intense.
Speaker: And to tell them in a realistic way doesn't really make sense to because it just can't even reach the heights of what those feelings are. And when you reach some kind of equilibrium again, hopefully that happens to everyone who's been through something like that, it's really hard to imagine or to reconnect with how intense those feelings actually are.
Speaker: So heatstroke, it's in this kind of like over-the-top register all the time, and I'm Doing that really intentionally because it's the only way I feel like I can truthfully show what it's like to have your heart broken, have an experience like that. It just it just made the most sense to me, basically.
Speaker: I love that. it It really, that question is kind of driving from, um one of my favorite books of all time is is a book called Reality Hunger by by David Shields. it's He calls it a manifesto. it's It's sort of a it's a pastiche of quotes that he's kind of chopped together. and And one of the sort of central thoughts behind it is this idea that Nonfiction often is full of lies and fiction is often the realm of the truth, you know?
Speaker: and And I really felt as as I was reading this book, I've been in very similar situations, you know, at least the front half of January's situation, you know? Unfortunately, I've yet to meet any Talking Bunnies, but um the idea of that loss of self that comes from the type of relationship that she was in and the fallout of that relationship and that those betrayals, you know?
Speaker: love that used the word operatic because that very much is, yeah yeah i don't even know if you realize you're in it or that's what's happening when you're in it, right? ah But so what was the sort of the seed for heat stroke? You know, because you've got these be kind of disparate elements. And that's what makes beautiful art, right? Is you take these two very, very different things and you smash them together.
Speaker: So you've got the breakup, this very, very tender, very human experience. Then you've got these really surreal elements of there's Lord Byron and the bunny, the Carolyn Lyon relationship, the historical element.
Speaker: So i'm curious, what was the first hook for you and how did you sort of build out from there? I think this is such an interesting question when you ask a writer, like, when did they start writing a book?
Speaker: Yeah. It's especially for a first book. And this, this is my first book. I think, you know, there's symbols here, characters, scenarios, motifs that I've been thinking about for like, as long as I remember.
Speaker: Yeah. Really as long as I can remember. So. It's so hard to say what came first or what was the like inciting incident. It just really is everything I've been interested in and ruminating on for as long as I've been around basically. But I will say that, you know, it's easy for me to pinpoint when I sat down and started writing this specific manuscript. And that was the summer of 2020.
Speaker: And were you living here then? I was about to move here. ok It's very memorable summer because it was like the heat dome. Yeah. So I was having having this experience of feeling like Like people say apocalyptic a lot, but it really did feel like something was happening in the atmosphere that was very scary. And I just started keeping a diary and I was keeping a diary in the notes app on my phone. And every day I would write like the temperature, date and like just start writing about how was feeling.
Speaker: And eventually that became stroke. At some point, the diary just morphed into the book that I was writing. And I don't know how that happened. yeah I really don't. It was kind of, you know, just like something I got possessed or something. And then my job just became about capturing that story.
Speaker: Well, it isn't that the case too? I find with my writing, it's it's like, as you say, you know, it's like, I think a question like, you know where do you get your ideas? Like, I think that, I think ah someone who's never written anything thinks that's a a question to ask. but But if you've actually sat down to write, you have no idea you because you just sort of let, you know, if you're doing it, the way that works for me at least is you just let us sort of sit in here.
Speaker: Whatever comes out is, you know. I wish I could get ideas. That's just it. It's like if I knew where I could just like show up and grab them, like, come on. I would there. it but you no I think we all would though, right? Is that maybe this is spinning us too far? I think that's kind of one of the false promises of AI the idea of like, you don't ever have to have an idea. We'll always have one for you.
Speaker: And it's like, that's sort of one of the smoke and mirrors of it, but it's also why it's horseshit. But that's a sidebar. I want to say stay on point. I think especially with a debut novel, you see this with so many artists.
Speaker: There's this almost a desperation on the page that you can really see of like, if this is going to be my only kick of the can, I got to make sure I say it all, you know? And it creates for these really beautiful explosions of art. And I think that your book is one of those, you know, it's the latest example of that, right? I can really feel the desperation in the best sense of the word, right? You know, in the sense that it's like you're following an impulse and you're trusting the impulse and you're going.
Speaker: Yeah. And I was totally desperate. I mean, this was like, this was like my chance to write a book and I had a lot at stake. Yeah. sure Yeah. No. One of the words that was kind of popping up in a lot of the material I've seen around the book is is the word unhinged.
Speaker: they they They keep on using it, you know, for my money, I see it as a compliment, but I'm i'm curious from your direction, do you see ada unhinged as as a compliment? and And what does a quote unquote unhinged narrator let you do that, you know, a more composed or i guess trustworthy one maybe wouldn't allow?
Speaker: Well, to answer your first question, absolutely. think It's a compliment. I love hearing that because it feels true to the book. Sure. And what does a narrator like that allow me to do? I mean, i will love women like this in fiction. Like,
Speaker: like Becky Sharp in Vanity Fair or like Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction, like unhinged, desperate, obsessive people who will stop at nothing to achieve their goal.
Speaker: I mean, like The Last Seduction with Linda Fiorentino. Like I love movies like that. I love books like that. And I think I love them so much because it allows me to play with humor.
Speaker: I think my sense of humor is when something is equal parts tragic and funny, that's what I love. And that's the tone I want to be writing it. So an unhinged narrator, such as January and Heathstroke.
Speaker: She has this obsessive desire and it's sad. It's really sad. yeah and But i I feel like there's so much humor in her like unwillingness to admit defeat, in her complete, deranged, obsessive you know attempts to achieve something. It's it's funny to me.
Speaker: That tone and playing with those kind of opposing feelings, is I really love to do that as a writer. She's also, in a lot of ways, inspiring from a certain angle in that like she has a goal and she's driven as you say you know that is something to take lessons from, you know, is is is, you know, she knows what she wants and she figures out how to get it, right? She certainly does. ah And I do like the idea of it being, you know, I think that there is there is something funny about that level of mania, but there's also something very rooted and human about it and I think the absurdity of the experience is something that... that
Speaker: doesn't necessarily get explored as much in sort of how do you want to like in the sort of the the basic conversation around these kinds of topics, you know, it's like, it's like you have to fictionalize it in order to be able to actually say anything about it. Cause otherwise we have to all maintain our composure and our level of reason and we all have to be regulated and talk very reasonably and rationally. Whereas in fiction, you can be like, no, this, this woman is nuts, yeah yeah but I love her. Right.
Speaker: And I think in my own life, I always see the absurdity in things and that's gotten me through so many situations in life. That's just my outlook naturally. And it, it just made a lot of sense for my character to be immersed in a situation that's very absurd and silly. Also very relatable. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. The novel itself, you know,
Speaker: There's sort of a few betrayals throughout. We'll probably dance around in spoilers. We probably won't go too far, because, you know, the book's not even out yet, so I don't want to i don't want to spoil it too much, but there's a series of betrayals.
Speaker: What it feels more like you're exploring is is what comes out of the betrayal, were the revelations that come out. It's not necessarily the so much as what gets kind of unpeeled. And I'm wondering, this might be one of those like, i don't know, but like when you're following those impulses, do you do you want to follow the impulse of exploring the loneliness beneath heartbreak and not just the heartbreak itself?
Speaker: I think what I found interesting about a woman in a situation like the one January's end, I mean, It's revealed within the first few pages, I think, that her girlfriend's been unfaithful and their relationship has fallen apart. So that's like right at the beginning. That's not a spoiler. But what I found really interesting about a situation like that is, you know, in any kind of betrayal or crisis or like what my mom would call a tower moment.
Speaker: um romantic or otherwise. I think it can feel almost good in the sense that you really go back to basics and all the pretense is gone and you're really just left alone with you and who you are and no, know, ego, ego death has happened and you're just there. And that can feel kind of beautiful and liberating.
Speaker: It's obviously terrible and painful, but Again, it was that like, you know, it's a double-edged sword and I love to think about those in this book. I think there's a lot of those happening and yeah, I just, I love exploring something that's painful and equally exciting. And I think she's really, she's really trying to figure out how to move through a situation that's so confusing like that.
Speaker: And yeah, it's just honestly just interesting for me to write about. Yeah. Yeah. There was something, I really love what you're scratching at there because there is something I know in moments of, in moments of my life where I've experienced something similar,
Speaker: um Often in reflection, almost miss the feeling. not you know I don't miss the pain part, but I miss the the emptiness in the most i it's in the most ephemeral way. I don't know how to exactly, but but... I know exactly what you mean. It's like you're really just so raw and you're so... high You're so alive and you're just there and you're present and everything sucks, but you're so much more alive than when you start to recover and you get it back out there and you start seeing other people, you start doing other things. And it's like, it's like the, the walls come back up, you know, and you almost kind of, it's those moments of heartbreak or those moments of true revelation that you finally see who you actually are, you know, and and
Speaker: I know you can't go through your day always like that. i know. there's There's a time limit on it. It's just too much. yeah But it's i guess in a way, maybe that's what art's for, right? Is the idea of like, so you can you can crystallize that and then you can revisit it whenever you want, you know? but Definitely.
Speaker: So January and her friend Laura, they're heading down to California to metabolize this grief, right? Why... Why did you build the character of Laura?
Speaker: Who has her own choices. She's got her own shit going on. Right? Exactly. She's got her own shit presently and in the past, you know, with January, with others. and she adds this whole other layer. And I'm curious where where that curiosity came from rather than sort of building the the triangle around, you know, the ex-girlfriend and, you know, the absence that that left.
Speaker: I think like the relationship between a woman and her best friend is just so fun and beautiful for me. And some of my favorite parts in this book to write were the dialogue between January and her best friend.
Speaker: I think they're some of the most fun. and They bring a little lightness. I mean, their their relationship is very rocky, yeah but yes there is a lightness and a sweetness there that was just, I think the book needed.
Speaker: And I also thought it was really important to show January interacting with people who love her so much and care about her so much. And I think she would have started to seem a bit pathetic if we didn't have that. Yes.
Speaker: Because she feels so down on herself and so pathetic. So I really wanted to show through, through her interactions with other people, you know, that she's magnetic and charming and funny and people love her and care about her.
Speaker: And she has this whole world outside of her grief and her heartbreak, but she's just not connected to it right now. yeah And I think, ah It just makes me so sad for her. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: Because you can see it. it's so It's like right in front of her, but she's just not able to access it. Well, and that's, isn't that the, that's the flip switch. You know, we're talking about earlier about the idea of like, you're so draining, you're so raw, but then you're also like the other side of that same coin is that you're also like so blind. Oh yeah. Funnel vision. Right. yeah And so it's like, sometimes that's really good. And then as long as you've gotten yourself focused in the right thing, because if you haven't, you're, you're gone.
Speaker: Right. You know, something that really comes up is this question of of, you know, something I'm often exploring is this idea of, like, what we ask of a friend when romance fails.
Speaker: Because, you know, Laura... For all her faults, she also is doing a lot of holding for, for January's problems, you know?
Speaker: Did you think often about the sort of the limits of what a friend can do in a situation like that? I don't actually think there's a limit to what a friend can do.
Speaker: um You know, I think it's, Obviously a friendship is not a a replacement for romance. And I, I say that very explicitly in the book a few times, like kind of maybe a little over the top the way I say it, but I believe that's true. You know, you can't, you can't substitute one for the other, but you know, the type of love that Laura, the best friend in the book is showing to January is just so tender and so beautiful. And it does have a romantic kind of aspect to it. It's just so pure she's trying her best and
Speaker: It's not necessarily making January feel better. In fact, I think it makes her feel like even more pathetic there because she feels, you know, pitiful. Yeah.
Speaker: But I, I think that relationship was, you know, it's, it's just another one of the romances in the book. I mean, there's like so many romances, most of them have failed. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Or, and you know, I i i liked exploring that. i
Speaker: I don't really know what else to say. That's okay. Yeah. yeah it's It was very sweet to me. Yeah. You raised a really interesting point there. i wish I feel like we need to do a second episode that's like more book clubby of like after you've read, you know, because like you just raised a really interesting point about the sort of conclusion of the book that I don't know if we can go too deep on, you know, but the idea of the series of failed connections.
Speaker: that eventually culminate in a type of successful relationship. Yeah. You know, um you, you could argue at the end that the the people who are together are together in, it in what they see as a healthy relationship. In a way it's almost a thesis of like, you got to cra crack, crack few eggs. Yeah. I know.
Speaker: I know. but i wish we could talk about it of ah
Speaker: Obsession throughout the story is, is often, it often reads for me more as a coping mechanism. You know, it's, it's like, okay, this has gone sideways. So now I have to just really hyper fixate somewhere else. Right.
Speaker: I have kind of see that as for me, when that happens for me, it's like, oh, I'm not connecting in a way that, uh, is sort of like normal or, you know, or the, that the sort of accepted way.
Speaker: Um, and I'm wondering the bunny as the manifest manifestation of that, of that obsession, do you see that sort of totem as, as sort of a symptom or a rescue or both from this sort of like maladaptive obsession?
Speaker: I think what's happening with a lot of the obsessive love in the book, I mean, there's quite a few relationships that are very unbalanced and very obsessive and one-sided.
Speaker: And i think the bunny rabbit came up for me as a symbol that worked so well in this story because it's like this intensely vulnerable creature. Mm-hmm. And they're so fluffy and unassuming it's and just so vulnerable.
Speaker: They have no defense mechanism. So it really, it seemed very fitting to to think about this idea, you know, kind of survival of the fittest and love.
Speaker: I don't know if it's a symptom or, or a coping mechanism or i don't, I don't know. It just felt so perfect as a writer to think about, you know, like what, what encapsulates that feeling? And I just thought a bunny.
Speaker: And now, now within that bunny is a real, a real historical person, Carolyn Lamb, who she herself kind of was so obsessed that she destroyed her, her life.
Speaker: Where did you first kind of come across Caroline's story? Like, can can you remember the specifics or like, was it just somebody, you know, because I remember reading the book, you know, when i was reading it, I was like, oh yeah, I remember her. have no idea where I had heard of her, but she's been around, right? Yeah. she I describe her in the book as a footnote, a theory of literature, and I think that's so where she is. Like, you the name kind of rings a bell, but...
Speaker: she's She's not really recognized in her own right anyway. I should say here that, yeah, Carolyn Lamb, she's a real historical figure. She's distantly related to Princess Diana.
Speaker: and she was like an aristocrat, you know, in like the Georgian period. in England and she was obsessed with Lord Byron.
Speaker: They met, they had a five month long fling, only lasted five months. And this woman, I'm not exaggerating, spent the rest of her life writing about Lord Byron.
Speaker: publishing novels that were about him and their relationship. She was, she would satirize his poems. Like she stole artwork of him. She forged his signature. She, she had a bonfire where she burned an effigy of him. She had her servants dress up.
Speaker: in clothes that had his motto printed on them. Like the list, I could go on and on and on for the whole podcast. There's half of me that like, I don't mean to demean her, but there's half me that's like, for a guy. I know. For some guy. For five months. For like, for some guy. I know, but I, so I think she's fabulous. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker: I've always been obsessed with that story because it's just so over the top. Yeah. It's so over the top. It's so funny to me. And then again, equal parts, just so sad. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. Like, it's so sad. And this is a woman who clearly had some kind of talent for writing. Mm-hmm. I think she was very clever and intelligent and obviously had a lot of energy and imagination. And it just got channeled into this obsession with a person.
Speaker: And the way I look at her is like a thwarted artist. Like I think had it been a different scenario, a different day and age, you know, she probably would have written a book that was better received. She would have maybe been...
Speaker: someone who was a colleague of Lord Byron rather than like obsessed with him. So I, but I don't also need her to be as good of a writer as him for her to be redeemed. Like, I just think her sheer imagination and energy is like really admirable.
Speaker: i mean, scary. scary i wouldn't want to know her or hang out with her but i yeah completely obsessed with this figure she's i don't remember where i first read about her but it's one of those those things that's been swirling in my brain for as long as i can remember it's just such a great story yeah yeah i appreciate that point and i think that is important to highlight too that it's like you know Artistic merit isn't the thing that makes you valuable to society, right? I think that this is another element. to This is another direction. of I think we forget that we are programmed to value
Speaker: productivity and contribution subtly, you know, and and and we lose track of that stuff and we we don't realize we're undervaluing people because of these these things that don't look better. Yeah, I think, thank you for saying that because I got a little...
Speaker: a little discombobulated in my answer. i think I really, really believe that like her intense obsessive crush, i I will describe it as a crush. I think that's the best word for it.
Speaker: I think that's her magnum opus. A hundred percent. and Yeah. And I think that's great. And we're just not, we just don't have any precedent for for assessing that the way we would a work of art or, hang where you know, hundreds of poems or whatever Lord Byron wrote. But She really, she did something and it was unique and it was completely her. And it was, you know, we're still talking about it now. That's just it, right? You know, um um when i was when I was teaching theater, I would often i would often tell my students,
Speaker: There's no really, there's not really such a thing as good or bad art. There's, there's art that resonates with you or doesn't, you know, and I would always try to get them out of that mindset of like, well, I didn't like it so much suck, you know? And i was like, no, it means something to someone, right? You know?
Speaker: And I think that she's actually really potent figure for that, right? Is that it's like, it's not good or bad. It's just like, might not resonate with you, you know, but, but she's definitely coming at it off authentically. It is. And I almost look at what she does as a type of writing in terms of, you know, the way you mentioned before, you know, he's just a guy and yeah, he's a handsome, charismatic guy, but She was almost creating a character.
Speaker: You know, herr her obsessive love for him was too much for it to ever be based on a real person. So she's created this character of Lord Byron, keeps creating him and re-editing him throughout her whole life.
Speaker: And that's almost like a type of writing. 100%. Yeah. Well, and she's... deeplyly contributing to his mystique kick aside right And that to me is, I've, I've been on both sides of that paradigm and it's really dehumanizing, you know, to be the person who's being lifted up and pedestaled is really, really, really,
Speaker: um degraded. I think that people don't realize it because they're like, well, i'm complimenting you. I'm telling you all these nice things. like No, you're not telling me the human. You're telling the character that you are interacting with, right? Yeah, you become an archetype. Exactly. yeah So there's ah there's a balance there, right? You know, it's like, you know, it's that thing of like, he's just some guy. Like, yeah, he wrote some poems. It's great, you know, but it's the same thing with with anyone. It's like, we're all just, we're all just some guy. you You know, the world's just made up of some guys. I don't know.
Speaker: You mentioned before about the idea of, of how you brought Laura in to sort of open January's world a little bit. And that is something that, you know, there is a version of the book where January's spiral is really sad sad and really small instead of this kind of like feral, vivid tapestry.
Speaker: And I'm wondering what did that sort of heightened unhinged register allow you to, to discuss or that a sort of a quieter, more kind of grounded, but wouldn't have.
Speaker: I love this question. and i think this is so great because, you know, what it allowed me to do is explore something that I really believe, which is that like glitz and glamour is so serious and it can really save a person.
Speaker: And I think January is someone who at her core, she longs for beauty, for glamour, for she's, you know, she's shy, but she just wants to be the star. Yeah.
Speaker: And, you know, the book is a lot of it is about Hollywood. And, you know, she is longing to be in the center of this machine. And i truly think like, you know, there is exactly like you said, a version of this story that's just very sad and very insular. But her belief in glamour gets her outside of that story and it cracks it open and it makes it much more fun and it makes her ending so much more hopeful. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't describe it as a happy ending by any means, but it is, there is just something kind of great about it. Happy, happy is a perspective, you know, it's, it's, it's,
Speaker: if my if my years of therapy have taught me anything is that it's that there's no such thing as a good or a bad emotion right there's the emotion that you're using and i think that you know again without going too far into it like i think the people who are there at the end are using the emotions they're feeling effectively and the situation they find themselves in is is really where they should be you know and so like from an outside perspective it may not be a natural ending.
Speaker: It may not be. I think of it like horror in general. I think horror as a genre can't end on a grounded human and then they're all happy the next day.
Speaker: Because how could you possibly go through an experience like that without being deeply, deeply changed and traumatized and kind of like, how could you ever go back to like working at a bank, you know? Right. So it's like that ending, it may not be a natural ending, but it's, it is still happy for the story you've told, you know? Right. So it's that I think that's an important nuance to keep in mind when people approach the genre. I think in a horror movie, if you stagger out of there, that's a great ending. That's just it, right? Yeah, yeah. It's like, it's like I think the the happiest, for but at least for me, for the horror that works for me, the happiest ending is some of them live. You know?
Speaker: But even that is debatable. Because sometimes it's like, sometimes they go through a situation i'm like, oh, no, I would kill me first. Like, I don't want to, know, like... I'm the final girl. God.
Speaker: You know, that's the thing. I've talked about this for years. Back in the day, i had friends who used to always, like, try to, like, kind of, like, game scenario out, like, what if a zombie apocalypse happens? Or what if this happens? And I'd be like, shoot me.
Speaker: Like, I never want to live in that world. Ever. Not ever, you know? That's great. Like, you know, so it's like, so it's like often with what I, I mean, I love horror and I love exploring and I love hearing these stories. And nine stories out of ten, I'm like,
Speaker: if i catch even a whiff of this story i'm like just kill me that's so funny i truly feel like i'd make it yeah yeah yeah i mean i mean just so delusional everyone feels like ah
Speaker: there's a difference between you make it versus like that kind of like If I was there, the good guy with the guns there. Right. you know I think there's a difference. I think there's a nuance there, you know, like because you're not saying you, you know, just saying you'd make it through doesn't necessarily mean you're the.
Speaker: It wouldn't be pretty. So January goes through this kind of funny. She could write arguably.
Speaker: but However, it was being taken in externally. She was writing. But then these series of traumas happen to her. And when we meet her, she can't really write until she begins the bargains.
Speaker: What do you feel is the relationship between being unable to connect with being unable to create?
Speaker: I think there's two things happening with that situation in the book. The first is that, yes, it's true, January's, she's had some hard knocks in terms of her writing. She hasn't always got the reception that she wanted from it then she finds herself in a relationship with a woman who's much more successful, seems to just be able to do things like...
Speaker: you know, effortlessly. And that really gets to her. And I think that shakes her confidence a little. And I think it contributes to, you know, the situation in where she's in, which is she's not really actively writing anymore.
Speaker: And I think that happens. I think sometimes if you desperately want to be an artist for a while, at least it can be enough to just be around an artist. It can be really exciting and you know, not fulfilling necessarily, but it's, it's close. It's close enough.
Speaker: So I think there's a little bit of that happening and that is a hundred percent January's fault, not her girlfriend's fault. I want to say that. what i remember it But then the other thing that I just think is, I'm going to say funny, but I mean frustrating and heartbreaking at the same time about January is she can write.
Speaker: yeah She is actively writing throughout the whole book. She's writing poems. She's writing, you know, she's trying to get a screenplay off the ground. She is writing.
Speaker: It's just writing is unfortunately painstakingly slow and boring and frustrating. And the first draft is not always good. yeah the first book is not always good.
Speaker: And she just simply lacks the patience to go through with it. Yeah. And I think that's why she's in a situation she's in much more than like a lack of talent or anything like that. It's just she lacks patience.
Speaker: That's it so cutting on her, but it's so spot on. And I think it's so spot on for so many creatives. I think, I mean, it's spot on for for my journey, you know, you know, talk to me 10 years ago, you know, and it's like, I think, you know, what you said about like being around sort of more accomplished artists, you know, I think it can be really inspiring if you choose to let it be. I think it would also be really paralyzing, and you know, and it can be. yeah And I think that's what has happened to her.
Speaker: I think that's what, that's you know, I saw these echoes of myself in it of like, When you you allow yourself to be too intimidated and shuts you down, you know, and you you have these really high lofty expectations of yourself because you're observing people who have put the work in already, you know? It's that it's that it's the magic trick of of artists who have put the work in is they make it look like it's easy. And it's not. It's really, really hard to make it look really easy, right? Definitely. And I can relate to that feeling too. I mean, I think it is, I always say it's like perverse that I write books because this is, I can't,
Speaker: I can't really think of a more slow and painstaking art form. I'm sure there is. There is Maybe painting. Maybe. But books are definitely up there. Like it takes so long and there's no guarantee that it'll be good. No.
Speaker: Or ever even read, or even seen, or like, yeah. That it will ever see the light of day. It's so brutal. And and I am a naturally very impatient person. Yeah, here we are.
Speaker: and I mean, that's that's commendable. That's something to be really, really proud of, you know, like genuinely, because it is it is a feat and it is really hard to do, especially in the world today with just the attention spans as they are and that frantic need and expectation to be productive and to go and go and what's next, what's next, what's next, you know, and to just meditate on something for as long as it takes to make a book is very commendable. For years on end, I know. It's, yeah.
Speaker: but We'll see if I ever do it again. So speaking of reading, you know, but speaking of your writing, just kind of in general, you know, you've written a lot of nonfiction essays before this.
Speaker: What about fiction? rule What was it about fiction that let you kind of explore, you know, these, these, these themes we've already scratched, like obsession and and loneliness and all these things that, that, you know, an essay or sort of nonfiction didn't.
Speaker: I think I really love fiction because try as you might, when that you're writing nonfiction of any kind, it's really, really hard to not turn it into some kind of self-mythologizing, creating a persona, creating a voice.
Speaker: It's, depending on how mature you are at the point of this writing, it can be pretty embarrassing write. So I think with fiction, it was like, I never really excelled at fiction. Like I, you know, I would try and write short stories and stuff and it just, you know, it was not going well, I would say. I had, I had a little bit more success with writing essays and stuff. And so I just kind of kept doing that because it was working out a bit better for me.
Speaker: But yeah, I didn't really have plans to write a novel, maybe vague ones, but It wasn't something I planned to do. And once I started doing it, it was so exciting because it was just, it was no longer about me.
Speaker: ah It felt great. Yeah. And, and I haven't really written nonfiction and like a very long time. now And, you know, we'll, we'll see what the future holds, but it's just so fun to sink into something that has nothing to do with your persona. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. There's also, I've found this thing about with nonfiction, like Black Mitter Way, I've always been like, i don't buy it because it's like, how are you quoting everybody perfectly? How are you remembering these details? Like, could barely tell you what I did yesterday.
Speaker: i don't think I could tell you with any confident detail what I did this morning. And yet people are like, ah, yes, 10 years ago, what I remember in my memoir, you know, and it's like, I just... I don't know. Like, how is this?
Speaker: How are you passing this off as as reality? I love to read like celebrity memoirs. Yes. Yeah. But there's so much of that. That's just it. But that's part of the fun.
Speaker: I mean, yeah. And the score is settling. it's so good. I love all that. I mean, I love it, but, ah but it's also, it's just, it's this thing of like, can we all just agree this is made up, right? Like it's it's the idea of like, why are we, why are we separating those into this like nonfiction section when it's like, no, this is the juicy fiction. This is the made up stuff. These are the myths, right? It's the modern myth, right?
Speaker: It's all auto fiction. Right. You know, with this idea of like for anybody who's listening, who's who's had a January year, you know, whether it's the the breakup, the spiral, the thing that you're ah overly attached to you that may not be may not be too healthy for you.
Speaker: If they were to pick up this book, what is the main thing you would hope they would take away from the story? i hope they would laugh. Yeah, okay. I really do. i mean, i think this book is so funny. Yeah.
Speaker: And I'm not saying that to, you know, sound cocky or anything. I just, I find it really, really absurd and silly and funny. And... I think it's like I said earlier, like those experiences in your life, heartbreak, what have you, there is an element of camp to that.
Speaker: And I think leaning into that is so helpful. So what I hope people take away? i hope they can maybe get a little perspective. but Yeah, I think I i would hope that if anyone has had a January year and they read Heatstroke, they can really appreciate The humor and and the just the absurdity of these emotions. Like they're painful, but they're very, very absurd.
Speaker: Yeah. I love that. Last question, at least of the planned stuff. If Heathstroke is a warning, a comfort, or permission slip, which one would you say it is and why?
Speaker: Can I say all three? Absolutely you can. Yeah. but but I mean, I hope there's something comforting about it. um But it is it is a little bit of a ah beware as well.
Speaker: You know, I don't think, I'm certainly not saying the way January behaves is is commendable. Sure, yeah. But maybe there was a permission slip as well. I think it's all three. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: No, I think you're spot on, especially because, you know, it's the idea that I think what your book does is it is it it's it does what really far and fun art like this is supposed to do which is it reflects back an experience you may or may not have had.
Speaker: And then it puts it in the realm of the absurd. And so it allows you to see a human behave in a Potentially in human way, you know. um um And then if you're doing it right, you'll then take those lessons and take them out into your day. Right.
Speaker: Meredith Cole, what a pleasure it's been to talk to you. now game a moon So where where would you like listeners to go next?
Speaker: What what's what's the next thing to plug? Where where should we send people? I mean, i think people can find me in any bookstore or at the library. Fantastic. That's where I'd like to send.
Speaker: Excellent. Excellent. Book is Heatstroke. It is, you can find it right here at the book warehouse. uh it's not published quite yet right it's september 29th 29th okay september 29th so this this episode will actually beat it to beat it to the press by a couple days so it'll be so so after you finish listening to this pre-order it at the book warehouse or wherever you like thank you so much for for taking the time to chat with me it's been just lovely been lovely meet you there at the panel get your possessed perspective there and then i'm going to chat with you here all the best with the book and and yeah i'm
Speaker: You know, if you want to write another one, please do. And if you don't, you've you've already got that off the list, you know? Thank you for having me. It's been really great. Absolutely.
Speaker: and My new sign-off now is, okay anyway
Speaker: And that's it. Thank you one more time to Meredith for coming on the show and chatting with me. What a pleasure it was to get to know her, hear all her stories about developing this incredibly exciting debut novel.
Speaker: Heatstroke is in stores September 29th. Be sure to check it out. You're going to love it. It is so much fun. And speaking of the AuthorTalks panel that Meredith was a part of in August, I am going to be hosting a very special spooky season kickoff edition on October 1st.
Speaker: I'll be chatting with Aoife Josie Clements, author of Persona, and Marcus Klewer, author of The Caretaker and We Used to Live Here. Both authors I cannot wait to chat with. It's going to be so much fun. 6pm at the 27th and Main Street Plaza in Vancouver.
Speaker: It's free. It's going so much fun. Be there if you can. As always, if you want more friendless content, be sure to sign up for the free sub stack where you're going to get weekly writing from me along with pebbles of books, music, movies, just things that I have enjoyed over the week, things I've been thinking about and want to share with the people that I love and appreciate. You can sign up for that in the show notes.
Speaker: But that's going to do it for me. So let's wrap things up. Thank you so much for listening. And I hope to catch you back here next week. But hey, I'm not going to worry about that right now. And neither should you, because that is then, and this is now.
Speaker: So for now, I'll just say I love you, and I wish you well. Fun and safety, sweet peas.
Speaker: you
