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6 Marisa Noelle | Fantasy YA Author
285 Plays4 years ago
Author of the Unadjusteds series, Shadowkeepers and many more, Marisa Noelle lets us in on her experiences as a hybrid author and shares what it is like to self-publish as well as going through the traditional route.
Signing up to the Patreon will give you access to the Discord server, where you'll be able to interact directly with Jamie as well as many of the previous agents, authors and editors who have been on the show. You'll also be able to see who the upcoming guests are and put forward questions for Jamie to ask them.
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The Chosen Ones and Other Tropes
Jamie, Melissa and Noami talk about the best and the worst writing tropes!
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
So our podcast is called Right and Wrong.
00:00:02
Speaker
Are these your notes?
00:00:03
Speaker
These are your notes about what we're going to say.
00:00:06
Speaker
What does it say?
00:00:06
Speaker
I thought it would be a good... I didn't even get the idea.
00:00:11
Speaker
Maybe I can just ask you the question.
00:00:16
Speaker
It's going well.
00:00:16
Speaker
It's going really well.
00:00:22
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the Right and Wrong podcast.
Marissa's Writing Beginnings
00:00:25
Speaker
I'm Jamie.
00:00:25
Speaker
I'm Jamie.
00:00:25
Speaker
And I'm Emma, and today we are excited to speak to Marissa Noel, author of the Unadjusted Trilogy and Shadow Keepers.
00:00:33
Speaker
Hi, Marissa.
00:00:34
Speaker
It's really great to have you with us.
00:00:36
Speaker
Emma and I have been looking over the blogs on your website and we're really interested by the journey that you've had.
00:00:42
Speaker
It sounds like you've had a lot of ups and downs.
00:00:44
Speaker
And I was wondering if maybe you could bring us in at the start with your sort of original plans, like when you first started writing and how you sort of moved through the industry as you have.
00:00:56
Speaker
Sure.
00:00:58
Speaker
Hello.
00:00:58
Speaker
Yes, that's quite a story.
00:01:03
Speaker
So really, I had always been a bookworm, but didn't know that I might want to write.
00:01:10
Speaker
I was always kind of like maths and science kid at school.
00:01:12
Speaker
So, you know, it didn't occur to me to actually write.
00:01:16
Speaker
But I'd always had this idea for the science fiction novel.
00:01:20
Speaker
And yeah, my dad and I always used to like to discuss implausible theories and things like that.
00:01:25
Speaker
So I thought, okay, well, I'm going to write it.
00:01:28
Speaker
So I did.
00:01:29
Speaker
I spent, you know, a couple of months writing this book and then realized that it didn't have any dialogue and it was only 45,000 words.
00:01:36
Speaker
And I thought, yeah, that's not a book.
00:01:39
Speaker
I need to go and learn how to actually do this.
00:01:42
Speaker
So that's when I first went and did the Writers Bureau short story and novel writing course.
Finding an Agent and Publisher
00:01:50
Speaker
And that had a few aha moments where I realized, okay, I need dialogue.
00:01:54
Speaker
People need to talk in my book.
00:01:56
Speaker
That does help, I find.
00:01:57
Speaker
It really does, yes.
00:01:59
Speaker
Sometimes, sometimes.
00:02:02
Speaker
So I learnt the structure of a novel and the balance of dialogue and prose and, you know, character development and, you know, really bite-sized chunks of things and rewrote this book, but I didn't really know what to do with it.
00:02:15
Speaker
And I had been working on this memoir of my time with an anxiety disorder and that was the book that I really thought maybe I can help others.
00:02:24
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:26
Speaker
But it wasn't until I got the idea for the Unadjusted, which was a real boom moment, kind of wake up in the middle of the night, that I thought, actually, I want to do something with this.
00:02:35
Speaker
And I wrote the book in a month and I started querying.
00:02:38
Speaker
Yeah.
00:02:39
Speaker
And I wasn't online.
00:02:40
Speaker
I had no, you know, no Facebook, Twitter writer friends.
00:02:43
Speaker
I was totally on my own.
00:02:45
Speaker
Didn't, you know, I hadn't done English at A level.
00:02:47
Speaker
I didn't have any industry contacts, you know, but I found the writers and artists handbook yearbook thingy.
00:02:54
Speaker
Um,
00:02:55
Speaker
And that's when I thought, OK, I need an agent.
00:02:57
Speaker
I need to write a query letter, whatever that is.
00:03:00
Speaker
You know, not be too personal, which I didn't know at the time.
00:03:04
Speaker
So I started sending off queries and I took a punt on this one agent in Ireland who had no online presence, didn't even say what genres she represented.
00:03:17
Speaker
But I just wrote to her and I said, do you fancy a book about this?
00:03:21
Speaker
And she said, yes, let me read it.
00:03:23
Speaker
And then she had an editor work with me for a couple of months on it.
00:03:28
Speaker
And then she signed me.
00:03:29
Speaker
So that took about six months.
00:03:31
Speaker
That's pretty good.
00:03:32
Speaker
Yeah, it was.
00:03:33
Speaker
When I realize now, you know, I go back now and I hear about people's journeys and how much longer it can take.
00:03:40
Speaker
That was pretty quick, actually.
00:03:41
Speaker
And also the book was not in a good state at the time either.
00:03:45
Speaker
It was very raw.
00:03:46
Speaker
I hadn't really learned how to edit at that point.
00:03:50
Speaker
So it was a very first drafty kind of.
00:03:52
Speaker
here you go.
00:03:53
Speaker
But she must have liked the idea.
00:03:54
Speaker
So, um, so that's when I had, when I got agent number one, um, and then really nothing happened with the Unadjusted.
00:04:03
Speaker
I mean, this was just as the Hunger Games was quite big.
00:04:06
Speaker
So publishers were starting to not be interested in dystopian.
00:04:10
Speaker
And we tried a couple of other books, um, and still nothing happened.
00:04:16
Speaker
And that's when I kind of, kind of a warning bells were going off.
00:04:18
Speaker
And I was thinking, well, why, why is this not working?
00:04:22
Speaker
And I didn't have any of those horrible statistics about how only 1% of writers ever get a deal and things like that.
00:04:27
Speaker
You know, I was just like, come on, what's going on here?
00:04:30
Speaker
So I went off and did another course.
00:04:33
Speaker
And I did the Curtis Brown Writing for Children with Katherine Johnson, which was fantastic.
00:04:39
Speaker
So there was me and 14 other aspiring writers who all learned how to critique each other's work.
00:04:45
Speaker
And we became really good friends.
00:04:47
Speaker
And we're still in touch.
00:04:48
Speaker
We have a Facebook group.
The Editing Process and Mentorship
00:04:49
Speaker
And that really taught me a lot about my own writing, what my strengths and weaknesses were and what I needed to do to improve.
00:04:56
Speaker
So at that point, I found a different agent and still with the unadjusted.
00:05:03
Speaker
But I'd also already secured a deal with a small startup press in the States through a Twitter pitching contest.
00:05:12
Speaker
So that was unrelated to your agent?
00:05:15
Speaker
That was unrelated, yeah.
00:05:16
Speaker
I used to take part on all the Twitter pitching stuff and invariably got a few likes, but nothing, you know, all small press kind of stuff.
00:05:26
Speaker
But I really liked the vision for the book that she had.
00:05:31
Speaker
And when agent number two couldn't find a bigger publisher, you know, we decided to go for this smaller press deal.
00:05:38
Speaker
And actually, to tell you the truth,
00:05:40
Speaker
she's still the best editor I've ever worked with.
00:05:42
Speaker
Um, she pulled out me things that I didn't know I had, um, and really transformed the book.
00:05:48
Speaker
Um,
00:05:49
Speaker
into yeah it's very different to what it was so important to have a good editor isn't it it really is you can bounce off I think um absolutely with your story on because it's so hard to cut down your I don't know whether you found this but you find it hard to cut down your story once you have a relationship with it as well and you're so close to it um I do do you know
00:06:12
Speaker
I second guess myself.
00:06:13
Speaker
If I'm editing by myself, I joke with my friends that I always write a perfect first draft and it's really just because I'm afraid of editing and because I second guess myself.
00:06:22
Speaker
But if I have somebody tell me, oh, that chapter needs to go, then I feel a lot more clinical about it and I can do it.
00:06:29
Speaker
But if I don't have that confidence in someone else telling me what to do, then I get stuck and I'm like, no, no, no, I might do the wrong thing.
00:06:37
Speaker
So
00:06:38
Speaker
And often they'll point things out to you, which when you, when you, when you see it, once someone's told you, oh, this thing doesn't make sense later on with this thing.
00:06:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:06:47
Speaker
And then you think about it and for a second you think, oh yeah, obviously I don't know how I didn't see that.
00:06:51
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:06:52
Speaker
Or maybe because it did make sense, but, but you already edited something out.
00:06:56
Speaker
That happens to me a lot.
00:06:57
Speaker
Or you get these kind of little niggles where you know something's not quite right, but you can't quite put your finger on it.
00:07:02
Speaker
And then you just take someone to point it out and you're like, oh, that's what it is.
00:07:06
Speaker
You know?
00:07:06
Speaker
Yeah.
00:07:07
Speaker
It's easier from the outside looking in for people to spot the things like that.
00:07:11
Speaker
Yeah.
00:07:11
Speaker
I mean, I work as a mentor actually as well.
00:07:14
Speaker
And I,
00:07:15
Speaker
It's so easy to see what needs to be done in my mentees' books, you know, but trying to apply that to your own book is much harder.
00:07:23
Speaker
Yeah, do as I say, not as I do.
00:07:25
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:07:26
Speaker
For people, Marissa, wanting to go into writing, in terms of mentorship, obviously you're a mentor yourself.
00:07:33
Speaker
How would you suggest they find a mentor or get into that sort of world?
00:07:38
Speaker
Because it can seem very...
00:07:40
Speaker
daunting and that there's no answers and they've just kind of got Google as a as a um you know as an answer yeah so what do you think about that do you know I think that some of the best things to do are to join a organization like Scooby's like SCBWI I never remember the order of those initials I think that's it um because you
00:08:06
Speaker
Because you can go onto the Facebook
Self-Publishing vs. Traditional Publishing
00:08:08
Speaker
group and you can ask all those questions and there will be people that have been around for a long time.
00:08:12
Speaker
They can point you in the right direction of all the various different courses.
00:08:17
Speaker
And there are so many and there are so many different mentorships and it's hard to know what would suit you, you know, and cost, you know, is also a factor.
00:08:26
Speaker
And there are so many different things and there are free ones and there are paid ones.
00:08:32
Speaker
And really the best place to start is somewhere like
00:08:35
Speaker
the scooby gang where they can kind of advise you on what's out there and then you know the reputable ones because people do get stuck into scams and things like that so at least you can start in a place where right i'm going to investigate the um the right mentor which is what i do um or i'm going to investigate the am amm i think it is which is a mentor match in the states or um what was it on pitch walls uh
00:08:59
Speaker
So there's lots and lots of them.
00:09:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:01
Speaker
So it's just about finding what's right for you.
00:09:03
Speaker
And also with Right Mentor, what I do, we have our free, you know, selected summer programme, but we also do mentoring throughout the year, paid mentoring.
00:09:13
Speaker
It's actually really reasonable compared to a lot of the other, like the old negatives out there, which, you know, although is fantastic, is going to cost you quite a lot.
00:09:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:22
Speaker
So, yeah, it just, and that's what you've got to weigh up.
00:09:25
Speaker
You've got to understand, you know, you've got to think how much can I afford?
00:09:27
Speaker
What, what do I want?
00:09:29
Speaker
What's going to look good on the CV?
00:09:30
Speaker
You know, what bit do I want to learn?
00:09:32
Speaker
Do I want to learn a whole novel structure?
00:09:34
Speaker
Do I just want to work on character or do I just need help with my submission package?
00:09:38
Speaker
You know, it does depend on what you need.
00:09:40
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:40
Speaker
I guess there's a lot of, uh, sort of self-awareness that you need to figure out where your key weaknesses are and identify them.
00:09:48
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:48
Speaker
In terms of, um, you've had three agents in your career so far.
00:09:54
Speaker
That's correct.
00:09:55
Speaker
Yes.
00:09:56
Speaker
Yes.
00:09:56
Speaker
And, and in, I mean, in many ways, do you, do you see agents as mentors or if you would look, is that what you would look for in an agent?
00:10:04
Speaker
Yes, I definitely, for me, that's definitely what I want.
00:10:07
Speaker
I would like, you know, somebody, um,
00:10:10
Speaker
My agent now, Stacy, she's amazing.
00:10:12
Speaker
She's really editorial.
00:10:13
Speaker
And we work on draft after draft of the book until I feel it's almost you could just publish it.
00:10:20
Speaker
I'm exhausted, but that's in a good way.
00:10:23
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:24
Speaker
But you see, you have an agent now, but you are self-publishing the Unadjusted series.
00:10:32
Speaker
I'm right in thinking that the first one was published by the small press.
00:10:38
Speaker
That's right.
00:10:39
Speaker
It was published by the small press and then it was a startup press.
00:10:43
Speaker
It was me and another author from Australia.
00:10:44
Speaker
Um,
00:10:45
Speaker
And she decided she wasn't going to carry on with publishing.
00:10:48
Speaker
So we got our rights back.
00:10:50
Speaker
And at that point, my agent was happy for me to re-self-publish it and also publish the rest of the series.
00:10:55
Speaker
Okay.
00:10:57
Speaker
Because it's harder to get an interest from a publisher once a book's already been published.
00:11:03
Speaker
So, and I was quite happy because I work really quickly and I write a lot.
00:11:08
Speaker
I needed something out there.
00:11:10
Speaker
So I was quite happy to work on the things with Stacey, but also have,
00:11:14
Speaker
my series that was just mine and a little self-publishing experiment as it were.
00:11:19
Speaker
Oh, okay.
00:11:20
Speaker
So you, the Unadjusted, you finished that trilogy and you are self-publishing that.
00:11:24
Speaker
The third one comes out later this year.
00:11:26
Speaker
That's right.
00:11:28
Speaker
That's right.
00:11:29
Speaker
You are working on, uh, separate, separate books, which you plan to go through traditional publishing.
00:11:36
Speaker
Correct.
00:11:37
Speaker
Okay.
00:11:37
Speaker
So does your agent do anything with your self-publishing stuff or does she just leave that with you?
00:11:42
Speaker
Um, I, uh,
00:11:44
Speaker
I think that it's with the rights team.
00:11:48
Speaker
So whether that's international or TV or film, et cetera.
00:11:54
Speaker
But I don't know how hard they're pushing that.
00:11:56
Speaker
Actually, I haven't really experimented.
00:11:57
Speaker
I haven't really asked about that.
00:11:59
Speaker
I'm quite happy just to get on with it.
00:12:03
Speaker
I do, you know, I have a friend who is fortunately, she's a film producer and she's quite interested.
00:12:08
Speaker
So we'll see, you know, maybe one day.
00:12:10
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:13
Speaker
She was actually... Oh, sorry.
00:12:15
Speaker
Carry on.
00:12:16
Speaker
No, I was just going to say she was one of the producers on Bridgerton, so she's quite popular at the moment, yeah.
00:12:22
Speaker
Oh, I love Bridgerton.
00:12:24
Speaker
It's so good.
00:12:24
Speaker
It's amazing.
00:12:26
Speaker
I was going to ask that, obviously, you've self-published and, or you're going into self-publishing and you're going through the traditional route as well.
00:12:34
Speaker
What are the biggest differences you find through doing both of them?
00:12:40
Speaker
So I think...
00:12:43
Speaker
One of the benefits of self-publishing is the control that you have.
00:12:47
Speaker
It's, you know, you set your costs, you, you know, if I had a hard time with, for instance, with the first book of The Unajusted, because it's a dystopian society based upon the idea of a pill can cure anything or regenerate limbs for soldiers that are, you know, have had stepped on IUDs, whatever.
00:13:11
Speaker
my editor at the time was really worried about how it erased disability because it didn't exist.
00:13:19
Speaker
And, you know, we had a long discussion about this and I was saying, it's not a political stance.
00:13:25
Speaker
It's not, you know, it's not that I'm saying disability shouldn't be there.
00:13:28
Speaker
It's a dystopian society.
00:13:30
Speaker
So you need to expect that there are things that happen like that.
00:13:34
Speaker
But we ended up writing a disabled character into the book just so that,
00:13:39
Speaker
You know, if there was any offense, for instance, that wouldn't, you know, wouldn't cause a problem and that people weren't erased as a group, as a culture, as whatever.
00:13:51
Speaker
So that was a, you know, it was a couple of weeks of discussion and trying to understand would that change the heart of the book?
00:13:59
Speaker
You know, this character had to have a really good reason for not taking this pill to, you know.
00:14:06
Speaker
So it's all those kinds of things that were difficult.
00:14:09
Speaker
And I, there were, there were things that were changing the science and I was pushing back on that.
00:14:14
Speaker
But obviously when you self publish and you know the heart of your book, you can make those decisions on your own.
00:14:19
Speaker
You don't have to, you know, it's entirely up to you how you want to treat those kinds of situations.
00:14:27
Speaker
Obviously there's, there's
Marketing and Advertising Insights
00:14:30
Speaker
an outlay of expense.
00:14:32
Speaker
And I think the biggest cost of that is the editing itself, you know,
00:14:37
Speaker
I don't think I would at this point publish a book without having a developmental edit on it just because I know things are pointed out during that time.
00:14:48
Speaker
Or, I mean, you could get away with having several critique writers really give it, you know, a once over.
00:14:56
Speaker
But that's probably the biggest cost.
00:14:57
Speaker
And then, you know, with traditional publishing,
00:15:01
Speaker
you know, you've got your different routes with small presses.
00:15:04
Speaker
And my experience is that there wasn't really a marketing budget.
00:15:07
Speaker
So I decided I didn't want to go down that route again, unless it was a press that had some funds to put behind it and raise the awareness because I can do all that on my own.
00:15:18
Speaker
And I get more royalties if I self-publish.
00:15:21
Speaker
So, you know, it's more lucrative for me to do the self-publishing, but there are some, you know, small independent presses who have that behind them.
00:15:29
Speaker
And I say, great.
00:15:31
Speaker
Traditional publishing, yeah.
00:15:32
Speaker
I mean, it's the lack of control.
00:15:34
Speaker
You don't get as much say on titles and covers and, you know, that kind of stuff.
00:15:38
Speaker
Whereas with self-publishing, it's totally up to you.
00:15:42
Speaker
But you also...
00:15:43
Speaker
Sorry, as you were touching on before, I think the relationship as well between, I guess, your agent and your editor has to be a good relationship as well.
00:15:53
Speaker
You know, you have to have work with people that, you know, gets you and gets your writing as you touched on before.
00:16:01
Speaker
And that can be half the battle.
00:16:02
Speaker
Whereas self-publishing, as you said, you don't have to do that.
00:16:05
Speaker
It's very much sort of a free, I guess, a freeing process.
00:16:11
Speaker
Yeah, it is actually.
00:16:12
Speaker
And it's much quicker because, you know, traditional publishing is very slow.
00:16:16
Speaker
And, you know, most people would produce a book a year, but there are some real self-publishing hot shots who might have a series pre-planned, release a book every two or three months for two years, and they are topping the Amazon charts, you know, and it's incredible to watch them.
00:16:35
Speaker
But it's all about their advertising as well.
00:16:37
Speaker
So you need to get involved in
00:16:40
Speaker
you know, Amazon ads and Facebook ads to raise awareness of your book.
00:16:44
Speaker
You need to let other, you know, it's unlikely or less likely to be in bookshops on Waterstones tables.
00:16:49
Speaker
So you need to raise the awareness of your digital footprint.
00:16:53
Speaker
And that's the way to do it.
00:16:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:55
Speaker
So would you say that you needed a lot more of a social media presence, you know, a bigger brand presence for yourself in terms of self-publishing?
00:17:06
Speaker
No, I wouldn't say that.
00:17:07
Speaker
I think the most important,
00:17:09
Speaker
thing I think it helps um and I don't you know I don't think I sell many books on Twitter for instance um right there might be there might be 20 or so but I think the biggest thing is actually tackling the ads because people who are browsing on Amazon or Facebook and you are targeting your audience to people that like your genre of book and that's the people that are going to buy your book they're already there looking for something to buy um they just need a reason to click on you
00:17:38
Speaker
So I think that's more important than social media, actually.
00:17:42
Speaker
Although I do, I mean, I do do Twitter and Facebook and Instagram and all those things, but, you know, more of a bit of a creative fun, I think.
00:17:52
Speaker
I don't know.
00:17:53
Speaker
I don't have the answer to if it actually garners me any sales or not.
00:17:58
Speaker
So I'm not sure.
00:17:59
Speaker
Yeah, no, it's interesting.
00:18:02
Speaker
I think the ads are really super helpful.
00:18:04
Speaker
It must be.
00:18:05
Speaker
I mean, I've never used them myself, but I think that that must be really helpful to get things out there.
00:18:11
Speaker
Yes.
00:18:12
Speaker
Yes, I definitely think so.
00:18:14
Speaker
If you were giving advice to maybe either your younger self or to new authors looking to get into the industry, would you recommend self-publishing or would you steer them more towards traditional?
00:18:29
Speaker
I think it depends on who you are and what you want.
00:18:32
Speaker
I think if you're, I mean, I'm very productive and I can write a book in four to six weeks.
00:18:38
Speaker
And I think, you know, with that kind of rate, you know,
00:18:41
Speaker
traditional publishing can be quite frustrating when you're waiting constantly.
00:18:46
Speaker
So, you know, and I'm lucky enough that my agent does allow me to self-publish some things.
00:18:50
Speaker
So I get the best of both worlds.
00:18:52
Speaker
And I, you know, I get to feel the need of actually having something published out there, but also being on sub with potentially, you know, a bigger publisher who might pick it up.
00:19:04
Speaker
So I think it really depends on the person.
00:19:06
Speaker
I think if your dream is the traditional, the big publishing and, you know,
00:19:11
Speaker
all those big deals and marketing, then go for it.
00:19:14
Speaker
You know, there's no reason not to.
00:19:16
Speaker
But know in the back of your mind that, you know, after a year or two or something and, you know, set yourself a time limit and say, if this hasn't happened in X amount of time, I'm going to try the self-publishing because, you know, it's perfectly a valid course.
00:19:31
Speaker
And so many people are incredibly successful from doing it, actually.
00:19:34
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:35
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:37
Speaker
It's good to hear that you can do both as well.
00:19:40
Speaker
You know, you can go down one route and go down another because at the same time, because I think, um,
00:19:48
Speaker
from whatever I've read or heard from people, it's either one or the other.
00:19:52
Speaker
It feels very like you need to make a decision in life and this is what you need to decide.
00:19:57
Speaker
And it feels quite pressurised in terms of that.
00:19:59
Speaker
I didn't know it was quite... No, absolutely.
00:20:02
Speaker
They're calling us kind of like the hybrid author.
00:20:04
Speaker
And I think there are a lot of people who start self-publishing and get picked up.
00:20:07
Speaker
You know, like, I mean, Fifty Shades of Grey is like a classic example of that.
00:20:12
Speaker
And the other way round, people who get frustrated and think, actually, I could do this better on my own.
00:20:17
Speaker
And I look at someone, have you guys come across Mark Dawson, who he runs a advertising course for authors and he's a very successful self-publisher, has had traditional deals, but he doesn't look back now.
00:20:30
Speaker
I mean, he rakes in thousands and thousands every month just by using his ads.
00:20:34
Speaker
And you think someone like that can do it.
00:20:36
Speaker
Yeah, he's like a lead child, you know.
00:20:37
Speaker
If somebody can do that, you know, why not me?
00:20:41
Speaker
And it's just about cracking the ads and making them work for you.
00:20:45
Speaker
So, yeah.
00:20:46
Speaker
And then I think, you know, it depends on the agent as well because not all agents want you to have –
00:20:52
Speaker
self-published titles.
00:20:53
Speaker
So that's a conversation you would need to have if you're agented.
00:20:57
Speaker
And presumably publishers, some kind of thing, they might, if you're producing, if you're releasing a series with them, they might not want you to be releasing a series on your own.
00:21:07
Speaker
Exactly.
00:21:08
Speaker
So yeah, I haven't had that problem yet.
00:21:11
Speaker
So yeah,
00:21:12
Speaker
I'm all good.
00:21:14
Speaker
Do you think you'll keep doing the hybrid style publishing?
00:21:20
Speaker
Do you think you'll always want something coming out whilst the traditional stuff is kind of moving slowly in the background?
00:21:28
Speaker
I'm happy.
00:21:30
Speaker
Yeah, maybe.
00:21:32
Speaker
I think, I mean, because I've got the Unadjusted Trilogy and the Shadow Keepers and I think
00:21:37
Speaker
I'm happy to always have those and always work on them.
00:21:40
Speaker
It might be that I even release more around the Unadjusteds.
00:21:43
Speaker
I was thinking potentially about doing a prequel, maybe.
00:21:47
Speaker
So, but I think what I would do is probably give it the good go with my agent and do two or three books with her.
00:21:58
Speaker
And if nothing takes, or if she's happy to release the books that have died on sub, then I might self-publish those.
Hybrid Author Experience
00:22:06
Speaker
um and keep going with newer stuff with her so that's kind of how I see uh it potentially going because you know I'm not you know I think I've been around the block a few times I know it it you know I may not ever get a traditional deal so um I just need to look um you know plan for whichever way it might go so we'll see yeah but I'm open I'm definitely open to doing more um
00:22:31
Speaker
Yeah, we'll see how it goes, hopefully.
00:22:32
Speaker
That's great.
00:22:33
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:33
Speaker
It feels like you've developed a very thick skin to this.
00:22:36
Speaker
You're very open to all the different avenues as you've kind of gone through your career here.
00:22:41
Speaker
Yeah, I used to cry over rejections.
00:22:44
Speaker
Yeah, well, I think we all have.
00:22:45
Speaker
Yeah, I think you just do.
00:22:49
Speaker
I think you just develop, you just get used to it.
00:22:52
Speaker
And at every stage you go through, there's more of it.
00:22:55
Speaker
And I think what helps...
00:22:57
Speaker
I think when I got my first agent, the validation really helps that somebody recognized a talent in me and I thought, okay, these rejections don't mean anything about my quality of work.
00:23:10
Speaker
It's not personal.
00:23:11
Speaker
And I was able to compartmentalize that and put that to one side.
00:23:15
Speaker
And then it's funny when you get rejections where they say exactly the opposite.
00:23:19
Speaker
you know, one says like, oh, it's too character driven and the next one says it's too plot driven.
00:23:22
Speaker
You're thinking, well, come on, you know, one or the other.
00:23:26
Speaker
So you know that it's very subjective and it's just like you or I, would we like the same books?
00:23:32
Speaker
Maybe not.
00:23:32
Speaker
So I think you just have to remember that and that it really is like a timing.
00:23:39
Speaker
It's the right idea at the right time on the right desk.
00:23:42
Speaker
And that's what it comes down to.
00:23:43
Speaker
And there are some books out there that are not well written and it's all about concept.
00:23:48
Speaker
Yeah, it's so true.
00:23:50
Speaker
You speak a lot about, you know, mental health and within your books and your characters.
00:23:57
Speaker
Is there an inspiration for this?
00:24:01
Speaker
Yes.
00:24:02
Speaker
So when I was at my first term in university, I lost two friends to meningitis and I developed an anxiety disorder.
00:24:10
Speaker
And I really struggled with that for a long, many years.
00:24:13
Speaker
And I
00:24:16
Speaker
at the time there wasn't really Google and, you know, you couldn't really find out about that stuff.
00:24:21
Speaker
And I'd never read books with characters about mental health that weren't self-help books, you know, and I just thought I would love there to be a character who has mental health problems, but it's not about the mental health problem.
Incorporating Personal Experiences
00:24:33
Speaker
It's not about trying to get better.
00:24:34
Speaker
It's just who that, who the character is.
00:24:37
Speaker
And they happen to be in this fantastical journey or a science fiction journey or something like that.
00:24:42
Speaker
I wanted kids to,
00:24:44
Speaker
see themselves and think I don't have to change I don't I don't have to be I'm not going to be better if I get rid of this you know I'm not going to be a better person so it's really important to me to show that uh to teenagers that you know it's like the term mental illness I hate that term it's not it implies something you need to get over and actually it's not it's like yeah it's like having diabetes you don't get over diabetes you treat diabetes you know you manage it it's the same it's the same thing with mental health so it's
00:25:12
Speaker
And actually it gives people amazing qualities and empathy and all sorts of things that they might not have had if they didn't have those conditions.
00:25:20
Speaker
So I actually think it can bring positive experiences as well.
00:25:25
Speaker
So that's my message on my soapbox.
00:25:31
Speaker
I couldn't agree more.
00:25:32
Speaker
I think it's such an important, important message to send children as well, especially of the age that you write for.
00:25:39
Speaker
And especially in the times like 2020 and 2021, where everyone's on social media and it seems to all very much be about bringing people down rather than raising people sometimes.
00:25:52
Speaker
And I think
00:25:53
Speaker
Having, reading a book that champions this rather than, like you said, puts it in a corner and making it some sort of illness to be poked and prodded, which it certainly is not, I think is really important.
00:26:07
Speaker
And, you know, thank you for bringing that to the industry as well.
00:26:10
Speaker
I think it's a brilliant thing to do.
00:26:12
Speaker
Thanks.
00:26:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:13
Speaker
And just circling right back to, you know, writing and how you physically sort of write.
00:26:21
Speaker
Do you find it hard to do you write in spurts, short spurts?
00:26:25
Speaker
Or do you sit there for hours and kind of scroll away?
00:26:29
Speaker
Or, you know, how do you find the best process?
00:26:33
Speaker
I prefer to have marathon sessions.
00:26:36
Speaker
I, you know, I I'm I like to get down.
00:26:40
Speaker
I'd say close to 5K in a day if I can.
00:26:44
Speaker
That's not always possible.
00:26:46
Speaker
I'm miserable if I don't get at least 2K down.
00:26:48
Speaker
This is really when I'm first drafting.
00:26:50
Speaker
And I have been known to do more than that.
00:26:54
Speaker
There's a couple of days when I've done 10, and that is quite exhausting.
00:26:58
Speaker
I don't do that often.
00:27:00
Speaker
But it depends, because I'm quite a plotter.
00:27:02
Speaker
So as long as I've got the story down, I can just get the words down, and I don't try to edit myself.
Growth and Style Development
00:27:07
Speaker
I just go.
00:27:07
Speaker
Okay.
00:27:10
Speaker
Yeah.
00:27:10
Speaker
So that I kind of just fit it in around when the kids are at school.
00:27:15
Speaker
So, you know, it's not like I have a preferred time.
00:27:18
Speaker
I just have the time when I have time, you know?
00:27:20
Speaker
Yeah.
00:27:22
Speaker
So that's, that's, and I usually get really productive at about two o'clock when I've only got an hour left and I'm like,
00:27:28
Speaker
okay, I need to stop procrastinating and actually get some words down.
00:27:31
Speaker
I'm like, I've only got an hour to pick up quick, you know.
00:27:34
Speaker
It's amazing what effect time pressure can have.
00:27:36
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
00:27:40
Speaker
I think it is important to tell the listeners as well that obviously with everyone we've spoken to as well, it's very different for everyone.
00:27:46
Speaker
It's a very different process.
00:27:49
Speaker
So it's,
00:27:50
Speaker
each person has their own personal way of maybe going at it for 10 minutes in the morning before their coffee or they need to do it in the evening or, you know, whenever.
00:28:00
Speaker
And I think there's no sort of major rules and regulations, would you say?
00:28:06
Speaker
No, not at all.
00:28:07
Speaker
And I think anybody that tries to tell you there is, and, you know, like I think it's Stephen King who says you must write, you know, for a thousand words every day.
00:28:15
Speaker
I mean, you've got to do you.
00:28:16
Speaker
You don't, you can't put pressure on yourself.
00:28:18
Speaker
You've got to figure out what you're
00:28:20
Speaker
best most productive routine is and just stick to that you know yeah um and everybody has times when they procrastinate it's you know i kind of do that where i faff around with my ads and check that in the morning instead of getting to the writing because i know that's going to be harder on my brain you know whereas i should do it the other way around but um but at least with the ads there's like i know i just need to check this this this there's a there's an end time whereas when you get onto the writing you can just go on and on and on
00:28:48
Speaker
Yeah, but you've just got to do yourself and what works.
00:28:51
Speaker
And you said that you don't edit your writing too much or you try not to, you try to have like quite a flow with it.
00:28:59
Speaker
Yes.
00:28:59
Speaker
But do you think that the editing process was hard for you when it did come down to taking stuff away?
00:29:07
Speaker
Or do you think, you know, you just kind of had on the page what you needed to have at the start?
00:29:13
Speaker
I think it's getting easier.
00:29:15
Speaker
I think I'm now...
00:29:17
Speaker
I'm not quite a sparse writer, whereas I'm not, I don't go into purple prose, I don't write more than I need to.
00:29:23
Speaker
And actually, I need to go back sometimes and add things in.
00:29:26
Speaker
Because I do write science fiction fantasy, sometimes that can be little tweaks on world building and making sure that there's enough information
00:29:36
Speaker
so that the reader can understand what the world is.
00:29:39
Speaker
But I, you know, and what people have said lots about The Unadjusted is that it gets right into the action and the world builds naturally around as you read.
00:29:48
Speaker
And I much prefer that as a reader.
00:29:50
Speaker
I like, I don't want to be bogged down with descriptions of what this planet's like and blah, blah, blah.
00:29:55
Speaker
I just want to get going, you know.
00:29:58
Speaker
And I've become less of a fan of adult books now because of that.
00:30:02
Speaker
um because i find ya you you get much more into the meat of things much quicker they're pacing with adult books there's a often a much slower yeah uh slower kind of um curve as before you get to the action exactly yeah i find them they can be a bit introspective for me sometimes so come on let's go so i yeah i tend to write quite sparsely and i um
00:30:30
Speaker
I think the other just is originally it had a very saggy middle that needed to be chopped.
00:30:36
Speaker
But I needed help to see that.
00:30:38
Speaker
But I am getting better at recognising what's not working.
Industry Trends and Community Importance
00:30:43
Speaker
And I think that just comes with time and experience.
00:30:45
Speaker
So hopefully...
00:30:47
Speaker
You've been writing for a long time now, for years.
00:30:50
Speaker
And how do you feel like the industry or do you feel like the industry has changed during this time in any way, as well as like obviously your own writing technique with it?
00:31:02
Speaker
I think that, well, one of the things that hasn't changed but annoys me is the fact that readers read in genre.
00:31:11
Speaker
And I know, you know, especially as a teenager, that,
00:31:15
Speaker
I would read anything supernatural I could get my hands on.
00:31:20
Speaker
So it annoys me when, you know, for instance, publishers say, well, no one's, we're not buying Dystopian anymore.
00:31:25
Speaker
I'm thinking, but you've got a whole readership and that's all they read, you know?
00:31:29
Speaker
And so there's a real disconnect between what publishers want to publish and what readers want to read.
00:31:36
Speaker
And yes, I know, yeah, publishers want to find the next big thing and that next amazing, you know, genre bending, whatever.
00:31:45
Speaker
But you can do that at the same time.
00:31:46
Speaker
I think you still need to provide for your readers what they want.
00:31:49
Speaker
And I imagine sales would be pretty good if they did that.
00:31:53
Speaker
So that kind of annoys me.
00:31:56
Speaker
I think what's changing is the diversity angles.
00:32:02
Speaker
So obviously there's a shift in not only what our cast of characters might look like, but also the authors behind them and who they're
00:32:12
Speaker
who should be writing what books and, you know, that sensitivity and diversity in nature, whether it's from a race perspective or gender or sexuality or, you know, whatever that is.
00:32:26
Speaker
And it's tricky.
00:32:27
Speaker
It's a tricky minefield to navigate at the moment because there are people who could write a really well-researched book that might be outside their field, you know, that I think,
00:32:39
Speaker
It's tricky.
00:32:40
Speaker
It's tricky time.
00:32:41
Speaker
It's a minefield, yeah.
00:32:43
Speaker
It really is.
00:32:43
Speaker
Pulling on from that, today, what do you think the best piece of advice is you would give to, you know, would-be writers of whatever genre or age?
00:32:54
Speaker
Is there anything specifically that you would take from your own experience?
00:32:59
Speaker
Yeah, sure.
00:33:00
Speaker
There's two things I always say, and that's find a tribe.
00:33:03
Speaker
I think having written in a vacuum for years...
00:33:07
Speaker
and knowing how much I learned from connecting with other writers I think it's really important to make those connections and actually to have a writing group that you can celebrate with and also mourn the rejections with it makes it so much easier to bear when they're all there with you saying you know it's okay and giving you tips to deal in um
00:33:28
Speaker
My writing group, we all send each other fart gifts to cheer each other up.
00:33:32
Speaker
So that's what we do.
00:33:35
Speaker
So you find your thing and it immediately takes the sting out of things.
00:33:38
Speaker
And you just giggle about who can find the most ridiculous gift.
00:33:41
Speaker
And you know you're not alone.
00:33:42
Speaker
So that's really do
Marissa's Book Recommendations and Conclusion
00:33:45
Speaker
that.
00:33:45
Speaker
And perseverance.
00:33:47
Speaker
I think it's not going to happen if you give up.
00:33:50
Speaker
So it's fine to take breaks and it's fine to do other things.
00:33:53
Speaker
But if it's what you really want,
00:33:55
Speaker
then just keep going, keep learning, keep finding people, keep reading, you know, keep doing as much as you can to improve yourself and get your work out there.
00:34:04
Speaker
Yeah, it's not a race.
00:34:06
Speaker
Well, if it is a race, it's a marathon, not a sprint.
00:34:09
Speaker
Exactly, exactly.
00:34:11
Speaker
I think that... Marathons are hard.
00:34:13
Speaker
I mean, yeah.
00:34:15
Speaker
I think that about rounds up the interview for now.
00:34:19
Speaker
And that means we have just one question left to ask you.
00:34:26
Speaker
We tried our hardest.
00:34:27
Speaker
And the question is, if you were stranded on a desert island with a single book, which would you choose?
00:34:34
Speaker
I had two because I'm naughty and I couldn't choose one.
00:34:41
Speaker
I have The Watchers by Dean Koontz, who is my favourite author.
00:34:46
Speaker
I discovered him when I was about 11.
00:34:48
Speaker
I lived in the same town in California, actually, as him.
00:34:52
Speaker
And he's
00:34:53
Speaker
He really got me into the supernatural horror and it's my favorite of his books.
00:34:58
Speaker
I love it.
00:34:59
Speaker
And it's also about genetics.
00:35:01
Speaker
So maybe that's what inspired me with The Unadjusted.
00:35:04
Speaker
Who knows?
00:35:06
Speaker
I'm sure.
00:35:07
Speaker
And the other one is probably a bit of a boring choice, but I have to, I can't not.
00:35:14
Speaker
And it's The Hunger Games.
00:35:15
Speaker
I love The Hunger Games.
00:35:16
Speaker
I mean, it's a classic.
00:35:17
Speaker
It's a modern classic.
00:35:18
Speaker
It's so good.
00:35:19
Speaker
It is.
00:35:20
Speaker
It really is.
00:35:21
Speaker
And I've just been re-watching all the movies again.
00:35:23
Speaker
And I sit there with a smile on my face.
00:35:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:26
Speaker
And I love it.
00:35:27
Speaker
I love the story.
00:35:28
Speaker
I just think it's amazing.
00:35:29
Speaker
It's one of those books you just want to be in, what I do, at least.
00:35:33
Speaker
Yeah, I really like the story.
00:35:35
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:35
Speaker
It's great.
00:35:36
Speaker
It's great for female characters as well, like powerful females, I think.
00:35:39
Speaker
It is, actually, yes.
00:35:41
Speaker
Yes.
00:35:42
Speaker
So those are my two, if I'm allowed to.
00:35:46
Speaker
Oh, thank you so much, Marissa.
00:35:48
Speaker
Thank you.
00:35:49
Speaker
You're very welcome.
00:35:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:35:51
Speaker
Really informative and really helpful.
00:35:53
Speaker
Thank you.
00:35:54
Speaker
Hopefully we'll speak to you later on down your journey as well.
00:35:57
Speaker
And good luck with everything you're doing.
00:35:59
Speaker
It's really exciting.
00:36:00
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:36:00
Speaker
No, I'd be delighted.
00:36:03
Speaker
To keep up with everything that Marissa is doing, you can follow her on Instagram and Twitter at MarissaNoel77.
00:36:09
Speaker
To make sure you don't miss an episode of this podcast, follow us on Twitter at RightAndWrongUK and on Instagram at RightAndWrongPodcast.
00:36:15
Speaker
Thanks so much for listening and we will see you in the next episode.