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Porn Recovery & Redemption: How Churches Can Lead the Fight Against Sexual Addiction | S6, E5
51 Plays24 days ago
In this episode of the Trafficking Free America podcast, produced by the U.S. Institute Against Human Trafficking (USIAHT) and Kids Not For Sale, we explore how to actually walk with people—especially within the church—toward healing from pornography and sexual addiction. This isn’t just about offering resources; it’s about delivering them with compassion and clarity.
Host Jeremy Hicks joins forces again with:
- Alan Teixeira, former sex buyer and group recovery leader
- David Hudson, licensed counselor and president of the Sexual Integrity Project
- Christy Collins, trauma-informed counselor for betrayed spouses
Together, they confront the realities of addiction, the failings of silence, and the hope of redemption.
⏱️ Timestamps:
00:00 – Intro: From Abuse to Recovery – What This Episode Covers
01:19 – Meet the Guests: Alan, Dave, and Christy Return
02:05 – Why Churches Tiptoe Around Porn & Addiction
04:44 – What the Church Really Wants: Tithing Units or Healing?
05:55 – The Call for Churches to Stop Tiptoeing
06:33 – The Role of Pastors: Walk With, Not Point At
08:04 – Why Many Pastors Don’t Speak Out: They’re Struggling Too
10:14 – What Happens When Pastors Find Freedom
11:01 – Don’t Wait for the Pastor: Any Man Can Lead
17:19 – How to Reach Families: Start With Talking to Kids About Sex
18:29 – Why Nobody Signs Up for “Porn Recovery” Workshops
19:21 – The “Secret Sexual Basement”: How Addicts Hide & Compartmentalize
21:14 – The “Gift of Chaos” That Leads to Change
22:27 – Making the Path to Help Softer & Private
23:44 – How the Church Can Become Safe for the Broken
25:07 – The Power of Invitation vs. Catastrophe
26:28 – How to Normalize Struggle Without Weakness
34:53 – First Step: Get Counsel Before You Confess
37:28 – The Real Consequence Isn’t Confession—It’s the Addiction
39:20 – The Pastor Isn’t the Healer—But He Can Be the Guide
40:12 – What Recovery Resources Actually Work?
41:18 – What Is the Sexual Integrity Project?
43:35 – In-Person vs. Online Recovery: What Works Best?
45:25 – Why Isolation Requires Group-Based Healing
46:48 – The Buckets of Help: Therapy, 12-Step, Groups, Intensive
57:22 – Breaking Cycles of Abuse & Trafficking
59:05 – Why Churches Won’t Host Groups (And How to Help)
01:01:31 – Child Sexual Abuse: The Root of the Sex Market
This episode is for leaders, pastors, counselors—and anyone who’s ready to move beyond silence. If we want to end sex trafficking, we must start with the demand. And that starts with recovery.
👉 Next step: Become an abolitionist at usiaht.org/abolitionist
📌 Watch, subscribe, and share this podcast to be part of the solution.
#PornRecovery #SexualAddiction #ChurchHealing #TraffickingFreeAmerica #USIAHT #KidsNotForSale #EndTheDemand #SexualIntegrity #FaithBasedRecovery
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Transcript
Introduction to Trafficking Free America
00:00:11
Speaker
Hey everyone, and thanks for joining me on today's podcast of Trafficking Free America, where we have discussions around topics like what causes abuse, trafficking, trauma, and sexual addiction in this country, and how we can begin to stop it.
Preventing Sexual and Porn Addiction
00:00:25
Speaker
In today's episode, we discussed how the church and society within the church can provide a better opportunity to prevent sexual addiction or porn addiction, or addressing someone who may already have a porn or sexual addiction.
00:00:41
Speaker
We discussed some resources that the U.S. Institute Against Human Trafficking helps promote, which stems from the Sexual Integrity Project. But before we can provide resources, we must have a strategy to be able to use those resources within our community.
Community Strategies and Resources
00:00:56
Speaker
On our panel today, we have a sexual addiction therapist, a former and recovered buyer, and a woman's counselor. And we talk about the different scenarios in this entire situation and why this is often not being addressed and strategies to help provide this ministry better.
00:01:20
Speaker
right, guys, welcome back to our podcast episode. um Yet again, we have Alan, Dave, and Christy joining us. at What we're going to be talking about today are resources to help those who might be addicted to have a sexual addiction, porn addiction, or those, as we kind of discussed in our last episode, who might have a more of a ah dependency on sex, a dependency on porn, an unhealthy dependency that could be,
00:01:50
Speaker
what we refer to as stage one of cancer and in many ways. And what we want to talk about today are resources that can help them help themselves and also resources for ultimately the church to help their congregation.
Challenges in Addressing Addiction
00:02:05
Speaker
I firmly believe that we ah tiptoe around the discussion of pornography and sexual addiction inside the church.
00:02:17
Speaker
And I believe the reason we do is going to be it's going to be harsh. um I believe the reason we do is because we know that what we're doing ultimately is, as as what we think we're doing, is destroying a marriage in that, or possibly um poking at some that would destroy a marriage.
00:02:39
Speaker
And um there's two reasons why we don't want to destroy a marriage. One, you know, there's there's a lot of trauma that can happen from destroying a marriage. There's also a lot of trauma that can happen from not destroying a marriage.
00:02:51
Speaker
um And and also destroying the kind of the family unit, which are kind of held together. And I would argue that sometimes the reason is a good reason. You're trying to help the family stay together in many ways because they're afraid you know they want to help out what the consequence is, that it's not too harsh and cause too much drama, cause too many things.
00:03:16
Speaker
But I'll also argue that they don't want to see so families separated in the church because that's just not good business.
00:03:26
Speaker
Ouch. Yeah. A healthy church, I believe, would go after those who are wounded and looking for healing. Those that are unhealthy, I would say they're looking for what we would call tithing units.
00:03:39
Speaker
So those that are financially stable have the ability to support the work of the church. what are they what ah What are those typically people? Are we talking about, I'm going to go after those billionaires and millionaires, are we talking about what I would call young families?
Role of Pastors and Churches
00:03:58
Speaker
you Yes. if you In church growth and church planning, if you target a young family, ah you have a higher probability of having longer-term engagement with them, particularly when they first get married, they have children. Any type of significant life change is when they start to reevaluate their life and start to engage again.
00:04:20
Speaker
And you can have either motivation. You can have one of care and compassion and ah guidance, which is amazing. and there's a lot of great churches that do that. ah There are some that might not have the same motivation and unfortunately are looking for financial stability, maybe under the guise of we do a lot of good work and we need people to support that.
00:04:39
Speaker
I always want to assume that they have some positive intent or motivation behind it. ah But yeah, unfortunately, there are some out there who are are looking just for a driving unit of young families to get them to engage.
00:04:51
Speaker
And if you poke at their marriage a little bit and really challenge them to get into the word and to live holy, and by holy, I mean set apart, sanctified, ah that's hard to do. There's some sacrifices you have to make, some changes you have to make, and Man, people don't want to be uncomfortable, do they they? They want to find a place where they can disappear in the back, enjoy the show, and hear some encouraging words on Sunday morning.
00:05:13
Speaker
I want to be clear. There's nothing wrong with going after young families. There's nothing wrong with children's ministry. There's nothing wrong with trying not to destroy marriage. I want to make sure I'm clear on that.
00:05:25
Speaker
But if you know, or I should say, if you are tiptoeing around men getting better by stopping things like this in their life, which I would argue that every single man has this in their life pornography and then possibly sexual addiction i think every man has that so stop tiptoeing around it and address that practically obviously pointing toward the healer the redeemer but stop being like okay well how do i help heal this person and not cause a divorce
00:06:10
Speaker
um So we're going to dive deeper into that as we talk about those resources and stuff like that. But one of the reasons why I wanted to start off with that and start strong in that is to say that these resources, many times many times someone goes to a leadership as someone in leadership or a pastor or something, if they're wanting to get help, where do they normally go to?
00:06:33
Speaker
They go to the person that often says, please come to me if you have any help, it needed help. And if you're not ready for this, you're going a hard time in your ministry. If you're not ready for this, you're going to see marriages destroyed in much worse ways.
00:06:49
Speaker
You're going to see trauma occur in much worse ways. You're going to see um children falling into the same sin, a pattern of sin. that you're trying to help. So um I want to make sure there's an understanding that the we're going to try to give resources to be pleased. Please be used and not just pointed at.
00:07:10
Speaker
Please be given, not just pointed at. Please. i use this illustration outside of our podcast episode with you guys, but I'll i'll say it again. A pastor is someone who should not point to getting help, but walk hold their hand and walk with them.
00:07:28
Speaker
So I'll start off with this. A pastor should not be, unless they're like a professional in this, should not be helping someone directly with their sexual addiction. Someone who has heavy porn addiction, heavy um ah sexual addiction, possibly buying at this point.
00:07:47
Speaker
um They need to go to a different type of counselor, a different type of group, so and so forth. But the pastor should be the one taking them there. Absolutely. Or someone in the church doing it.
00:08:00
Speaker
right So let's let's address real quick why they might not. Okay. right Sort of get that out of the way. Yeah. Depending on, there are multiple studies out there, but they're going to range anywhere from as little as 50% to some as high as 80 plus percent of pastors have engaged with porn in the last few months.
00:08:21
Speaker
They're struggling, just like every other guy struggling. Mm-hmm. If they're not able to figure out a path to beat it, there's a certain level of hypocrisy of trying to lead others to do it.
00:08:35
Speaker
So until they reach a point where they're not just willing to share their faith, but they're willing to share their fight, they're not going to be able to lead anybody else.
00:08:46
Speaker
ah So the first step is going to be for them to acknowledge this is something that I'm dealing with myself. Hopefully they're having a lot more victory than than a lot of other guys. But to admit it and to deal with it and be real about it.
00:08:58
Speaker
And to at that point, they'll be able to actually engage with a little bit of honesty and integrity and be able to lead this charge rather than hide behind their their fear.
00:09:09
Speaker
And I get it. I really do. If a pastor chooses to be that open, there's a lot of good reason to be afraid of what might happen. There are people who don't respond well to that honesty and and that integrity.
00:09:24
Speaker
um If I were to put a fine point on it, you're not doing it for them. ah But I would say the reason why a lot of these pastors are not engaging in it is because they haven't dealt with it themselves.
00:09:37
Speaker
They're not informed of of how to deal with it. And, man, you know what? There's so many resources out there to help them. where ah we can partner with them. I deal with a lot of them myself ah to be able to provide that that start for them.
00:09:48
Speaker
And as soon as they get help, every single time they choose to lead their church and the men in their church in this type of recovery, and it is transformative. The men become the men of God they're supposed to be. The men step up in leadership. The roles that they've abdicated to everyone else, particularly the women in the church, who've had, frankly, they've held our church together for the last several decades because the men won't take the responsibility they're supposed to.
00:10:14
Speaker
because they're afraid, they're scared, and they're ashamed. But when they find that freedom, when the pastor does it first, when they're the ones who are so brave to step out and finally do it, then they will be the leader of men who are able to come in. And these elders in these churches will be able to lead all these men to be able to lead the rest of them. They can lead their families.
00:10:28
Speaker
And it changes not just a church, but an entire community. ah So I'm really excited about the possibility and the topic of these men actually getting well and engaging in churches because this is where the fight's going to go. it's It's in our churches now, and we get a chance to fight it and have some victory in this.
00:10:44
Speaker
And I'm not and I'm also want to make sure that we're not just talking to pastors. Any man in a church who can take a step forward and help is important. It'll change a church. Yeah. don't i don't want to see a bunch of guys sitting back going, well, wait for the pastor.
00:10:59
Speaker
Nope. Yeah. um Let me point out at the Sexual Integrity Project, we fund therapy scholarships to help guys pay for one on one therapy. And a lot of churches, especially big churches, they'll have Celebrate Recovery or other programs that don't provide that.
00:11:16
Speaker
But there is no reason why they can't subsidize outside therapy to a qualified professional when someone from their church raises their hand and says, I need help with this.
00:11:29
Speaker
No reason. A lot of churches will do it for other addictions, but not sex addiction. That needs to stop. like well I don't know if I agree that a church will not help them with sexual addiction.
00:11:44
Speaker
i think to be fair, a church struggles to know if they have a sexual addiction because someone, because we've made it where it's like, you can raise your hand if you're addicted to this drug. You can raise your hand if you're addicted to this problem or having this issue.
00:11:59
Speaker
But don't talk. If you talk about sex though, Well, hold on. that na All of a sudden you cross the line. Yeah, that's essentially what I'm saying. yeah We need to erase that line, start the conversation.
00:12:14
Speaker
And I think the natural outgrowth of that is churches will have counselors on staff that are prepared
Engaging Families in Recovery
00:12:20
Speaker
to deal with it. And if they can't afford that, they could subsidize outside therapy to the right kind of vetted, you know, ah professional, good Christian sex addiction therapist. Yeah.
00:12:32
Speaker
But those are ways that they can start helping. I think in large measure,
00:12:39
Speaker
churches don't know how to deal with this. Do you know that 15 years ago, only 7% of churches had a program to help men with sex addiction recovery? How many years ago? 15. it's 10.
00:12:50
Speaker
now it's ten We went up 3% in 10 years. Yeah, which is better than not moving than either at all. Before we talk about the resources, you're exactly right. How do we bring it up?
00:13:01
Speaker
how do we How do we get to a point where we can even provide a resource? ah Christy, what yeah would you think is ah as a spot to even have that have a church?
00:13:12
Speaker
if if it's If a church were sit down and say, how can we do this better? What is your just natural opinion about that?
00:13:22
Speaker
it It really is large because you're not just talking about the men. you're Now we know women are increasing their addiction to porn, but we've forgotten. We have elementary, middle, and high schoolers, and they're all addicted.
00:13:38
Speaker
It's not just the men. it it has to be a whole family conversation. Absolutely. And i'm i don't I don't know how to crack that nut open.
00:13:49
Speaker
That's fair. Yeah. that's fair So um I have made the connection um and Dave might be able to weigh in with some studies that can back me up here. But, you know, I think the problem starts at like two years old.
00:14:04
Speaker
You know, those little tykes, they're a little rambunctious. What do we do? We get them a tablet. They start playing these innocent games like how to catch a fish or collect gold coins. you know It's like cartoons, right? But that child is getting dopamine at a higher rate than they would have if they lived in Walnut Grove in 1880, right? just so much technology now. And um they get saturated with dopamine. They can develop a dependency on that when they're very young, before the age of five.
00:14:38
Speaker
And as they grow older and get into their teens, you know, what happens? There's social media, more sophisticated games, more dopamine. Usually a pornography yeah ah exposure in those years, um eight, nine, ten years old.
00:14:54
Speaker
And. Boy, that really sends the dopamine levels up when they sexually mature. It's quite easy, especially if they've had a rough time of it and have some unresolved trauma or painful moments in their life to begin the process of self-medicating with.
00:15:12
Speaker
Sex with pornography, that's how it can start. um but let me let Let me let me let me let me stop you right there and let me just ask this based upon what Christy said.
00:15:26
Speaker
how would a church, how would a church begin the conversation of we need to begin talking about this and opening up an ability for us to say, are you having an issue again, ranging from issue to which we refer to as dependency earlier and addiction.
00:15:53
Speaker
Um, how does a church, Learn how to help those who might be struggling with that. I mentioned our last episode, ah to start off with, is the assumption we're already we already have it.
00:16:07
Speaker
yeah We've already been introduced to it. stop Stop waiting for someone to come to you on that. Just go ahead take an offensive approach to be like, hey, let's start talking about this. you know This is a really interesting question. I've never had it before, and I'm not sure the answer. My gears are turning right now on what to do.
00:16:25
Speaker
but um Maybe one thing we could do is hold, um and we don't have to call them this, but sexual integrity workshops one Sunday afternoon a month maybe or two and invite the families. And you could start the conversation with a product, how to best talk to our children about sex.
00:16:48
Speaker
You know, most moms and dads can get behind that, and they also have that question. Pure Desire Ministries just released a really great product on how to do that. And that the flyover is that That conversation isn't just one conversation.
00:17:07
Speaker
It's keeping the lines of communication open, being approachable, letting your kids feel comfortable asking them their questions, and also knowing what to say. You know, most parents struggle with this.
00:17:20
Speaker
I think if you make that kind of investment into a family, you could continue and step into the space of, okay, as we get older and into young adulthood and as we get married and have our own families.
00:17:33
Speaker
How is this affecting us? And just educate them and then you could sprinkle in, you know, we have these resources. You could join a recovery group if if you think there's some upside to you going through that, if there's something you want to work on.
00:17:48
Speaker
And it needs to be gradual because the old way was, um hey, we're going to have a group to deal with guys that are, you know, addicted to porn. There's a sign-up table in the back.
00:17:59
Speaker
Exactly. Nobody goes, nobody touches it. You know, I work very hard and Dave will back me up on this too, to create, um, you know, these integrity workshop or weekend experiences.
00:18:13
Speaker
They're very poorly attended, especially when you compare them. Like I might have a hundred guys in recovery groups and one will show up to our workshop and
00:18:27
Speaker
Because they know if they do, they're sending the message to everyone else there, i have a problem, and they're still not far enough along in their recovery that that they're willing to
Recovery and Overcoming Shame
00:18:38
Speaker
be open about that. Well, again, because the advertiser says, if you have this problem, it's an automatic admission to it's you can call it.
00:18:46
Speaker
You can call it an anonymous thing. I don't know how you... You've got to be careful how much you recover because you could end up... doing a recovered sex buyer podcast or something ridiculous like that like that. do you think, Dave? like how do we introduce How do we introduce the ability to provide resources and help without causing conflict?
00:19:12
Speaker
I was with until you and t said without causing conflict. I was i was i was on your train. Hold on. well let me let me there's a difference of There's a difference. Let's clarify that. When I say conflict, I'm talking about the difference of we were just pointing out, such as if someone, if you're like, are you struggling with this? Come to this. That's going to create a conflict.
00:19:32
Speaker
If you're just like, hey, um if you just is there a way to naturally say, hey, we're going to we're going to be doing this without saying like because you're struggling with it because of this or something like that. is there way to I mean, we do it every Sunday.
00:19:48
Speaker
We go to church like we're doing it already. What is why can't we do to. So there's a term that I like to use a lot known as the sexual secret basement. ah These guys begin acting out, ah whether it be once a year or whether it be once a day or five times a day, they begin acting out and they create this secret world that they don't invite people in because it is not about relationship. It's about isolation.
00:20:14
Speaker
And the only time that they start to dismantle that secret basement where they've built their house on top of it, they get married, they have children, they build a life over the secret basement.
00:20:26
Speaker
The only time that that gets accessed is when everything collapses on top of it. There are two guys who are smarter than than I am who are the front runners in this world of of sex addiction and recovery who have two different timelines on how long recovery takes.
00:20:44
Speaker
ah One will tell you that it is five years approximately. Another will tell you it's seven years. The main difference in those two timelines is the precognition type phase when they they're dealing with it on themselves. right I feel guilty about what I'm doing. I want to stop this. I'm going to try.
00:21:01
Speaker
I'm going to go read Every Man's Battle or read Slaying the Dragon. I'm going to join an accountability group. i'm going to do all these things that work really well for guys with a sexual integrity issue. ah But those who have moved further into dependence or even addiction have to go through another path. All right.
00:21:16
Speaker
So what changes is the moment of catastrophe, what I might call the gift of chaos, meaning that the moment that everything collapses.
00:21:26
Speaker
And who is it, Christy, that generally causes that point to finally happen in a man's life where he has no other choice but to deal with it?
00:21:37
Speaker
It's the wife who finally says, sorry. I'm done with this. Whatever this is, we're not doing anymore. Because he's going to stay in that basement until the wife says, if you don't change this, I'm not going be part of it anymore.
00:21:53
Speaker
They get to a healthy place of saying, I'm not going to allow this in my life. By definition, ah we see the characteristics of the secret basement, which is compartmentalization, meaning that this part of my life doesn't affect other parts of my life, that it's hidden where they're not going to see it, it's deceptive, they're going to lie and hide about it, and more importantly, it's isolated.
00:22:13
Speaker
So back to your question, what do we do? Well, they have to reach a point where they have no other choice. So it has to be almost confrontational. Something's going to have to happen to cause them to come out of this basement.
00:22:25
Speaker
If you'll forgive the term, an earthquake's going to have to happen to shake them out from where they're at so they come out and actually deal with it. Now, how do we make it softer, right?
00:22:36
Speaker
How do we get them out more gently, I think would be a way to say it. So we'll do some really basic, simple things. Like we'll put flyers in the men's restrooms.
00:22:47
Speaker
So it's not out at the main table in the front of the church where you have the church greeter, you know, the 70-year-old high-energy lady who's greeting everybody, and you have to sign up for the sex addict group right in front of her, right?
00:22:59
Speaker
But if you're in the restroom in there by yourself, and there's this one little QR code. You can grab little thing, tuck it in your pocket, business card size, maybe. These guys are like little deer. As soon as you start calm out, they're going to run away, flip tail and gone.
00:23:12
Speaker
But the reality is if we can make it softer, then they can start the process. Once they get through this, they're still going deal with consequences of their life. There's still going to be conflict. There's going to be problems.
00:23:24
Speaker
They're going to have to deal with it. But we can make it softer by giving them opportunity. And there's a phrase that but we use in groups is even if they don't stay this time, they know where they can go next time.
00:23:39
Speaker
that if we communicate as soon as you're ready to make a change in your life, we're here. So i I don't know if you can do it without conflict or without not struggle. I think by definition it has to be there.
00:23:51
Speaker
But there are things we can do to make it softer. One, provide a way for them to reach out without making it public at first. And then second, to be able to let them know it's judgment-free.
00:24:02
Speaker
We're not goingnna going to harass you or or embarrass you. We're actually going to love you and accept you and going to help you get through this. And then lastly, be open about it. Talk about it. Like you said, this is a real problem that's here now.
00:24:14
Speaker
This is not a future problem. It's now. It's in our church. Our children are dealing with this now. Our churches are dealing with it now. So talk about it now.
00:24:27
Speaker
Those my best answers. So Dave, I have a question. So if you invited men out, will they come or or does the house really have to burn before? i love Thank you for the the analogy. yet Can you invite a man out? I would say yes, you probably could invite them.
00:24:43
Speaker
But why would they come out if their maladaptive behaviors worked to them forever? and Okay. I can tell them about how amazing their life can be, how amazing the connection with their wife can be.
00:24:57
Speaker
They can't even see that. They they think I lied to them when they come in, right? They think there's no way that's a possibility until they start to taste what life can actually be like. ah so So I would love to invite them. So then the question is, you know, does the pastor do a whole sermon section on Satan is a liar?
00:25:16
Speaker
Right. Satan is a liar. Satan wants all of us to be hidden, isolated, deceptive in in our sinful areas of our life. So if that's not going to woo a man to cough it up, then then what what what is the message from the top down?
00:25:35
Speaker
Or is this a bottom up? So ministry, my understanding, ministry is either top down or bottom up. Oh, I see what you mean. Yeah.
00:25:45
Speaker
Yeah. I guess ah so in in and growing up in church,
00:25:54
Speaker
you're expected to get convicted on a Sunday morning. You're expected to feel um like you need to do better on a Sunday morning. I would venture to say that most of the time you go home and you're like, that's a good message.
00:26:11
Speaker
I'm going to work on this. but there's no community help. because if you Because the moment you're like, i need help with that, there's i think there's a stigma, whether it's true or not, you people feel this way.
00:26:27
Speaker
you're all of a sudden weaker. So I think that we there's there's two closets in this, right? there's like There's like a closet deeper in the closet. That's the addiction. And then there's the closet of like, I struggle with this, but I won't tell anybody I struggle with that.
00:26:41
Speaker
I can tell people I struggle with this because everyone agrees that, well, we all we all do. In some ways, I'm wondering, how can the church normalize the struggle of sexual dependency so that we can start helping sexual addictions?
00:26:56
Speaker
So I had this very experience not a year ago. A gentleman who I'm walking through recovery with, one of the steps is they have to find someone in spiritual authority and confess to them. That's one of the steps they have to go through.
00:27:08
Speaker
And he did that. He went to his church, and this is one of these churches where it's what they call an under-shepherd format, where the pastor's leading it rather than a group of elders. And when he went and confessed his past sins, he was removed from all of the places he was serving.
00:27:26
Speaker
So he was the dude who was running the sound. He was moving the chairs. He was the guy doing all the stuff. Right. And they're like, well, because you did this in the past, we're going to treat you as if we caught you doing it now.
00:27:39
Speaker
made zero sense. And then they doubled down, after they were confronted, they doubled down, doubled down. Eventually, this guy had to leave and go to another church that was open and said, hey, we love former sinners here, right?
00:27:53
Speaker
And they're very open. In fact, that particular church actually has a recovery group at their church. um And so he was able to find a local body of believers, thank God, that would engage with him and bring him in and ah be able for him to be able to be part somewhere.
00:28:08
Speaker
But what'll happen is in a church where they have that type of attitude, where if you're even sins of the past, not even current, that you're not eligible to serve in any way. and And we can have a debate about eldership and where you can serve.
00:28:23
Speaker
But if they're not going to let you serve moving chairs because six months ago you had some struggles, eventually those places aren't going to have people who are going to speak out.
00:28:33
Speaker
That environment is not safe. So we create an environment in churches where they can. They can say, I struggle or I did struggle. And they're like, come on in. Let's join the rest of us.
00:28:44
Speaker
That's the openness that you have to have in order for it to happen. So I'd say the first is an acceptance of struggle ah would be the first step rather than shutting down people who come out and say, hey, I've got some problems.
00:28:56
Speaker
ah Because the math tells us almost everybody does. I want to say that, um just reflecting on everything I've been through the last many years, choosing to stay in isolation with a dependency or addiction to sex or porn, that's weakness.
00:29:17
Speaker
You said earlier that guys might be afraid to raise their hand and and get help because others will think they were weak. And I just want to correct that. I mean, they're right to be afraid, but what really would happen is that others would think they were weak because taking that step is the epitome of strength.
00:29:39
Speaker
That's strength. That's being a real man, taking responsibility for something that's wrong in your life. and choosing, hey, I'm not going to offend the people I love or God any anymore with this unwanted sexual behavior.
00:29:56
Speaker
It's the hardest thing a lot of these guys ever do, and that's one of the reasons we have a high washout rate, but as Dave said, they know where to go when they're ready to climb back on the horse again. looking at Let me ask you this question. Looking at the gospel, looking at
Addiction Confession and Consequences
00:30:10
Speaker
how God wants us to go through or walk through repentance,
00:30:13
Speaker
um God does not say repentance, does if you truly repent, you will not have consequences. That doesn't exist. um i Let's talk about David for for a second. David, a man after my own heart.
00:30:29
Speaker
I think in many ways God talks about that through his repentance, but we can't act like God didn't have plenty of consequences for David.
00:30:38
Speaker
I personally believe that the first consequence to anyone who says, i need help with this because they have struggled or um have ignored their struggle and have are now deeper into it.
00:30:51
Speaker
The first consequence is shame.
00:30:57
Speaker
And i don't think that we should say that the spouse, the church or anything around it,
00:31:07
Speaker
There's going to be a shame. There has to be shame. There's no there's no repentance if there's no shame. And that's a natural consequence. And so how do we talk about shame when it comes to how the church or how he so how a family deals with someone who says, I'm struggling with this again? And I want to say there's a difference between I'm struggling and I'm addicted.
00:31:34
Speaker
You're addicted because you ignore the struggle for many years. There's a big difference there. and i But let's talk before we get there. Let's talk about the one struggling who says, i don't want to get there. I do want to do something about it.
00:31:48
Speaker
How can I? How can I? I need help with this. What is the right way to do it? Is it more private? Is it more public? Is it more? Is it family driven or is it one to one driven?
00:32:00
Speaker
that I want to open up those questions for you guys real quick. Before we get to how, I want to go back to the word shame. I want to give some different vocabulary that maybe we could should institute into this. Sure. Because I think I know what you're you're saying, where you're going, but I want to give some different words.
00:32:14
Speaker
So we're going to have conviction, right? That's someone who has repented, who is a Christian, and the Holy Spirit is dwelling in them and says, this is not what I have for you. I have something better.
00:32:24
Speaker
That would be ah an example of conviction. You have guilt. Guilt is I've done something wrong and I need to make amends for that. I need to face the consequences for that. Whereas shame is going to be powered by I'm fundamentally broken.
00:32:39
Speaker
Something is wrong with me Those are three very different words, and I have not seen any time in Scripture where Jesus shamed anyone.
00:32:52
Speaker
He convicted. He pointed out wrong. He addressed it ah even assertively. ah He also pointed out guilt. But at no point did he say, you are a bad person. Something's wrong with you.
00:33:07
Speaker
didn't say, you need to repent, and I'll make you whole. ah So I'm uncomfortable with introducing shame when people come in. I guess what I should have yeah and i know what i guess what i should have said is the feeling of shame is the consequence.
00:33:21
Speaker
Sure. Conviction or I would rather him have guilt. Right. um Right. And yeah, I'd rather have guilt over action and conviction because God does have so much more. This is not for you.
00:33:33
Speaker
This is the whole story of what ah the Holy Spirit's doing. Please stop. I have something so much more magnificent for you. Don't stay in the wilderness. Let's go to the honey the the honey pot, right? Let's go on to the Holy Land.
00:33:44
Speaker
ah So ah that would be the first thing I would start with is maybe we we pull away from the consequence of shame to the consequence of guilt and the consequence of conviction, ah which is going to bring about change.
00:33:58
Speaker
What's a healthy way for spouse to um do that properly? Because at the end of the day, Jesus didn't, but we ain't Jesus.
00:34:12
Speaker
We're going to shame it will be cut out of our emotion, right? Rather than walk through the correct way of conviction. So what would be the correct way of conviction in that circumstance or convicting your spouse like, no, this is not right.
00:34:30
Speaker
Taking a stance. You know, I don't think it should be like, well, I don't want them to not get help. so I'm going to act like everything's okay That's obviously terrible. So what would be the right response?
00:34:44
Speaker
That's a really great question. This can be done very well, and this can be done very poorly. And if it's done poorly, it'll just end a marriage. um The success that I have seen is that the the man has confessed to other authority, whether that be an a pastor, an elder,
00:35:07
Speaker
um a therapist and he has a good handle on on what a confession actually would look like for his bride and that there are some rules and boundaries put in place be because she's going to have some questions and if he just wants to get in the door and go i did this and i don't want to talk about it anymore um that that leaves her in in a very particular predicament, because she she's gonna wanna know more information.
00:35:40
Speaker
um The other thing that happens, not well, unfortunately, is that he hasn't um had good counsel. and that he just spills all the guts on top of her, and she's very like not prepared for that, and then she crumbles on the floor, and then he's like, why you on the floor? I just told you everything. are You should forgive me right now, and you know whatever.
00:36:05
Speaker
yeah it just It gets twisted. It's very muddy. um So i know it can be done well. I also know that it can be done very poorly. So we want to be very cautious with what we tell men.
00:36:19
Speaker
And I would highly suggest that you go through the the proper go to counsel or go to a therapist, get some boundaries, understand exactly what that conversation is going to look like and feel like.
00:36:30
Speaker
and And men need to to be prepared and understand these women are going to fall apart and and be on the floor. And they're going to have to be ready for that because that you can't whitewash this.
00:36:42
Speaker
if If you want to come clean, which which we want you to come clean, but but please do it in a healthy way. So it's a win-win for both parties. So really the first step is counsel in many ways.
00:36:53
Speaker
Yeah. It's not necessarily, um obviously there's a natural repentance. There's a natural, uh, confession, but you would agree that not only does ah would it want to help the family ah help you and help the family help everybody like counsel first.
00:37:11
Speaker
Yes, I think you need to seek counsel. And we clearly see that in Scripture. yeah Wisdom is in counsel. Sure. You started off asking about, well, we were talking about how pastors can be quite reluctant to even address this because, you know, they may cause a divorce.
00:37:29
Speaker
um The activity that can cause a divorce has already happened and it's already happening. um and And this is I'm just expanding what we tell the men who come for the first time. They're like, I don't want to disclose to my wife.
00:37:44
Speaker
And we're like.
00:37:46
Speaker
Your consequences are coming.
00:37:50
Speaker
Because the activity is happening and it's already happened. All we're doing is we're bringing it into the light and letting your wife know. So the message I would have to pastors is you have ticking time bombs.
00:38:04
Speaker
When you're at the pulpit looking out at these families, there are ticking time bombs of divorce here, divorce there. We have to deal with this. And if you do and you handle it properly, if you pour into your members where they are the most broken,
00:38:22
Speaker
and guide them through this, at the end of that, you're going to have strong, galvanized Christian supercouples and a flock that is loyal like you could have never imagined.
Church Resources for Recovery
00:38:36
Speaker
But we got to do the work. The encouragement there is, hey, um you have a platform. that, uh, to ultimately help men seek counsel to begin this process, no matter where they are from, ah from, from, uh, struggling to sex buying, you have, you have that at your disposal to do that.
00:39:05
Speaker
I want to make sure I do share this disclaimer and let me know if you guys agree or disagree. Um, It's still not the pastor's responsibility to heal them.
00:39:17
Speaker
It's still not the pastor's responsibility to make sure there a divorce does not occur. that's That's not what we're saying. No. No. agree with you. It's still the man, the husband, the spouse, I should say, to to make the first step.
00:39:32
Speaker
But maybe we hadnt need a better way of inviting them to do so. Right. um You know, I said last year that you know you can't solve a problem unless you own It yeah it is squarely the responsibility of the addicted individual yeah to own that problem and do the work. If they don't, yeah they're never going to succeed.
00:39:53
Speaker
um And they say, you know, you can't you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. And I think what we're asking pastors to do... is to just have some water around.
00:40:04
Speaker
Yeah. You know, um because i think too many churches, well, 90% of churches don't have a group or a program to help their members deal with this. So let's talk about that water.
00:40:15
Speaker
Let's talk about who that counselor is. Let's talk about what that support group is. Let's talk about that online resource, the the in-person resource, whichever. um And I would like you to go ahead, start it by introducing...
00:40:29
Speaker
um who you how you started the sexual integrity project and what how you started that resource like so the bolt of lightning yeah I mean let's start there right um okay um so in my own recovery ah I learned a lot about the environment in Dave's therapy group and then when my friend Lance and i started a recovery group at our church, the same environment.
00:40:57
Speaker
So these groups are a safe place where a guy can come in and everyone else in the group is dealing with the same problem.
00:41:09
Speaker
And the ideally, the leader of the group, if it's a lay leader, like a recovery group, is a recovered individual that has had that same problem and done the work to recover. And they have the that experience to share with the other guys.
00:41:25
Speaker
And a therapy group, you know, like Dave's, you know, Dave's not a recovered sex addict. He's just one heck of a good counselor, okay? um So the same dynamic exists where the men can be held accountable, where they can get into the mud and the blood and share all their deepest, darkest secrets.
00:41:46
Speaker
Here's the key. And be accepted and loved in spite of it. For many of these men, it's the first time. just Just think about this. If you're lying and hiding with ah a porn addiction or a sex addiction, none of the love that you're receiving in your life counts for you.
00:42:05
Speaker
It's all discounted because the people you love who are loving on you, they don't know the real you. They don't know everything that's going on. And you know that they don't. So it's just human nature.
00:42:16
Speaker
So now you're not even being loved and the isolation deepens. Having a grace-filled community of hope and healing that you can step into be real for the first time and become fully known and fully loved is the beginning.
00:42:33
Speaker
That's the crucible that we create for these guys to do the work. um Some churches will, you know, show the Conqueror Series videos or or they'll have an accountability group like Celebrate Recovery, and that's all great.
00:42:49
Speaker
But there's so much more necessary to create the environment for these guys to go through all of the steps and all of the milestones that are necessary for recovery. um And there's quite a few.
00:43:03
Speaker
So, um and that's another thing, you know, that kind of bothers me is guys will – have the courage to start a program and they'll finish that program and they'll still be struggling and then Their shame deepens because they come to the conclusion that I didn't get the monkey off my back because there's something wrong with me.
00:43:23
Speaker
When really, they did three of 24 things that they need to do and didn't realize that there was more to do. Because nobody gives them a map. Nobody shows them the landscape of what recovery needs to look like.
The Power of Group Therapy
00:43:37
Speaker
um And that's one of the things that um I try to do at the Sexual Integrity Project and I have a chapter on this in my book, you know, because I know a lot of the guys who are reading it are going to be curious. They'll be in that dependency, you know, stage wondering if they really have a problem or should I address it.
00:43:56
Speaker
and And so I'm speaking to that type of an audience in that chapter. So something like the Sexual Integrity integrity Project, is that in person? Is that online? is that Well, it's both.
00:44:06
Speaker
we We can have online groups. We do have hybrid groups for when guys travel or there's some hardship. But, ah you know, I have said that recovering from sex addiction virtually is a little bit like putting out a towering inferno with a picture of a garden hose.
00:44:25
Speaker
It's just not the same. but the The face-to-face accountability that exists in these in-person groups is one of the ingredients. you know And I'm not saying it's impossible to recover over Zoom calls.
00:44:39
Speaker
not saying that. A lot of the purveyors of healing resources like that model because it's more profitable. You can minister to mind many more people. if you do it virtually.
00:44:50
Speaker
um But I'm just not sold that that's the most effective way. I think in-person accountability, mentorship, is the way Besides, one of the things that we do is to pull them out of isolation is to encourage them to have contacts and start rebuilding healthy male relationships. And that's best done in person.
00:45:09
Speaker
you know We want them to go to coffee and you know go catch a game and and so forth as they step into that all in person, you know like we did when we were kids. you know Have a real play-based childhood instead of a phone and Zoom-based childhood.
00:45:28
Speaker
so so So that works. And, um you know, having a group like that, you know, I really think is the answer.
00:45:39
Speaker
It doesn't have to be ah sexual integrity group, but that model, that recovery group model, where they're doing homework, they're walking through recovery workbooks, they're getting to the root of their unresolved trauma, they're being referred to good Christian therapists when they're in that recovery group they come up against a real traumatic event or a problem that requires professional help at the sexual integrity project we can even help pay for that with therapy scholarships pure desire does the same thing um this is a more holistic approach and
00:46:17
Speaker
You know, the process is um lengthy in time. It can take two to five years to reach full recovery. And a lot of guys will spend the first three to six months and have success with sobriety. And then, you know, they they may just hang up the gloves and think that they're out of the woods and they could eventually relapse. But at least they know where to go to pick up where they left off and keep working.
00:46:44
Speaker
So there are a couple of buckets yeah that you wanted with for pastors, lay leaders, whoever, to to be able to have access to what to do. right So let's let's narrow those down a little bit. The first one would be the most extreme. This would be ah inpatient, outpatient, or hybrid treatment. So this is someone who is not functional in society would have to go to a facility to be able to get help. Now, that's going to be the minority, ah but that is an option. So they want to find a treatment facility that's And there are several of them nationally, there's a few locally ah that you would want to connect with to have that resource or that tool and in the toolbox for that rare occasion when someone who is not functioning in society to be able to go do those.
00:47:25
Speaker
Another option would be individual therapy. They're ah great resource of Christian counselors. The American Christian Counseling Association has a resource for those. ah You can look for those that are sexual addiction or trauma-informed will be able to provide help.
00:47:40
Speaker
Individual therapy is a great resource. You have 12-step programs such as SA, which is Sexaholics Anonymous, Love Anonymous, ah sla ah You also have CR, which is Celebrate Recovery. those are all And there's a bunch of others, but those are all really good resources.
00:47:59
Speaker
But those are really of recovery groups, meaning that they're going to help you reach a level of sobriety and then help you maintain that. ah So there's a piece that's missing when we get over into therapy groups.
00:48:13
Speaker
These are places where they can come in, get the benefits of the 12-step, but then have the therapy to bring them to a place of healing. ah Those are a little harder to find. There's not a lot of them. One great resource is Pure Desires. They have those types of, ah it's really sort of that middle point between a therapy group that I might run and 12-step group ah that you'd find at any corner.
00:48:35
Speaker
but They have a great resource and those are almost everywhere throughout the states. You can find them, even internationally. They also do have online options. But here's the the crux that I want to get to with the the benefit. The guys who come in are very reluctant to go to a group.
00:48:53
Speaker
They don't want to walk into a group of guys and say, hey, I'm struggling with porn. One of my favorite stories is a man who's made a lot of progress. What he thought, what he confessed to us, what he thought was going to happen, what he pictured it in his head, is that he was going to walk in and all the guys would be sitting there naked.
00:49:10
Speaker
Now, I have no idea why i had that thought. I assure you that's not what happens in the groups. now But this is the type of irrational fear that these guys will have about going to these things. They're terrified.
00:49:24
Speaker
But here's the reality. We were wounded in community, and so we have to find healing in community. Going to individual therapy is good, but it's not going to provide everything you need.
00:49:36
Speaker
You have to get to exactly what Alan was talking about, which is a safe place where people will hear you and love you for who you are, despite all the stupidity that you've done. And when you find that place is when you start to be able to address it. Now, you can augment that with individual therapy, and you should.
00:49:52
Speaker
You're going to find some very specific roadblocks for your recovery that you have to work through. But there are people out there who will walk with you through that. But if you're trying to get well from this type of thing, I promise you individual therapy is not the path. It has to be done.
00:50:07
Speaker
through group and through a group therapy to accomplish those things. So those are the buckets we would work with. One is institutional, another or clinical might be another word we use. Another one's going to be support groups. Another is going to be individual therapy. And then the ideal, which is going to be group therapy.
00:50:24
Speaker
I want to make sure I kind of underline what you just said there was if you're dealing with isolation, individual therapy is still isolation. It's still isolation. It's one professional that you're paying to listen to you and to walk you through this. And that's why you don't do it online, by the way. Yeah, that yeah it is. yeah Yeah. But that's why you don't do it online because it's still anonymous. Yeah. yeah like I can turn off the screen. doesn't mean it's bad, but it means that it's one of the stepping points is what you're trying to say. You don't end up in group therapy.
00:50:54
Speaker
It's better than nothing. sure if If you can't go to a personal physical group for whatever reason, and there are legitimate reasons, it's better than nothing. But if you really want to do this thing, the way to do it is connect with men.
00:51:07
Speaker
These men, by the way, I got to tell you, they are my absolute favorite people in the world. They they are amazing people. ah When they get through this, they have resiliency, intelligence, emotional maturity. They are so kind and giving.
00:51:23
Speaker
They meet for meals. They meet for breakfast. I know for a fact right now if I called Alan's phone at 2 o'clock in the morning, he's going to answer the phone.
00:51:35
Speaker
I know that without any question. It's the same with every single one of those guys. They know whatever you need, whenever you need it, they will stop what they're doing because that's what's important. That's the kind of community that they find in these places.
00:51:48
Speaker
As your therapist, if you call me at 2 in the morning, you're You don't even have my cell number, right? You have my office. You can leave me a voicemail and I'll get back with you ah whenever it's the appropriate office time.
00:52:01
Speaker
As a therapist, I'm not your friend. I'm your therapist. But in these groups is where they find an actual brotherhood and a place to find the healing that they deserve.
Family Involvement in Recovery
00:52:10
Speaker
So what Alan is saying 100% correct in that that is where the healing takes place. You want the buckets?
00:52:16
Speaker
I give them to you, but the best one, the one to go to is to get these guys involved with group. That's the one they're most afraid of because that's the fear they have to face, and it might start with an individual therapist.
00:52:26
Speaker
A good one will move them towards a group. ah Let me ask Christy a question real quick. um ah Christy, in your experience, have you noticed um if if maybe a spouse, if you're helping a spouse in a situation, we'll just say wife for the circumstance, um if you're helping a wife whose husband and need needs um therapy, are they often having to deal with where are they where' is my husband supposed to go?
00:52:59
Speaker
In the beginning, yes. and And that's why the Sexual Integrity Project, it if we could duplicate it and replicate it across the United States, it would be a beautiful thing.
00:53:10
Speaker
be Because what they've put together is a place for men and a place for the spouse, the betrayed spouse. And that's a beautiful picture when we can get them on the road to recovery at the same time.
00:53:25
Speaker
So... what ah what difference what is the What have you seen when it comes to spouses in a recovery program such such as Celebrate Recovery versus the therapy?
00:53:37
Speaker
i I want to be careful what I i say here. But if my understanding of Celebrate Recovery is I'm going there to share. But share doesn't move the needle.
00:53:51
Speaker
Share just keeps me sharing. And we want these men to be healed and whole. And we want these women to be healed and whole. So we need to move the needle.
00:54:02
Speaker
So a lot of what they do in the beginning is share their stories for the men and for the women. But then it quickly becomes, okay, but what do we need to look at?
00:54:14
Speaker
and And let's deal with the the real issues at hand, which is the sin in our lives and in our marriage and in us personally. And but if we don't move the needle, we're just all sitting around every day talking about how wounded we are. And when it comes to women, they become the victim.
00:54:31
Speaker
And if you stay in victim, then those women will age out and just become bitter. And that marriage is done. And that woman is just bitter. Can I take a second to brag on Christy?
00:54:45
Speaker
So I've been in this for just over a decade now. And it has broken my heart that these women are left. I'm i'm called to deal with the men.
00:54:56
Speaker
But I see these women who are left in the wreckage of their home. there They've been lied to their entire lives. Their entire marriage is is, they perceive it as being completely fake and nothing was real from the beginning.
00:55:09
Speaker
Everything's been ripped away. Every positive, loving memory they had of an interaction is tainted at that point. And they are literally traumatized through the revelations that take place in those situations. And it was devastating to see these women languish.
00:55:28
Speaker
They are often covered with so much embarrassment of what their husband has done and what they've allowed. they carry so much of that weight unjustifiably. I'm sorry.
00:55:40
Speaker
They unjustifiably carry so much of the weight and responsibility. That's something they often choose to take on themselves and that's not theirs to carry. And ah Christie has been an absolute godsend to have someone who is trauma informed, addiction informed, and is able to help these ladies who are dealing with all sorts of identity and codependency and and all the things that they need to get well, to get through that trauma, to become the women of God that they were designed to be, the mothers and the wives.
00:56:12
Speaker
Because I'm to tell you, if just one of the two gets well, we still have a problem. But by being able to provide some type of care to men for them to get well and for the wives to get well, and then they can come together and create a new relationship. They've they've always been married. The covenant still exists.
00:56:31
Speaker
But to form a new relationship and health is amazing to see. And I'm going to tell you, i don't ah it's I don't have statistics on this, and I wish I did, and I will eventually. Anecdotally, I can tell you that those men whose wives get well have at an order of magnitude higher level of success in getting well.
00:56:52
Speaker
because they're able to work together to do this. And this is what the whole point is. We're here to to get people well and to save marriages so kids aren't exchanged in a Denny's parking lot every weekend and that they're not going to be in a situation, we're going to tie this back into human trafficking, when they come from a broken home and they come from a place where their parents are wounded and addicted and the system has failed for them, they become vulnerable.
00:57:18
Speaker
at risk for being brought into those worlds of human trafficking, whether it's through pornography or unfortunately even in person. And this is what this is all about. We can deal with sexual integrity to bring holiness and happiness to people, but the payoff is going to be that they get out of the further part of the system, which is the abuse and the trafficking that takes place.
Expanding Recovery Efforts
00:57:40
Speaker
And having someone like Christy to help to have these women heal so these children grow up in a home where they're not going to be subject to this is amazing. And I'm i'm thankful for Alan, who's dealing with the men's part of it, and Christy is dealing with the women's every single day.
00:57:54
Speaker
And we're still growing. We've got so much more to work on and so much more to expand. We're doing what God has in front of us, and I'm just hoping that we'll even have more, equip more, and save more.
00:58:05
Speaker
The US Institute, um because i say obviously supports the Sexual Integrity Project. or One of the reasons we're doing these podcasts is so that that can grow.
00:58:16
Speaker
And so practically speaking, how can the resource of the as Sexual Integrity Project truly grow and to help both men and women, so I should say, both sides of spouses in this situation?
00:58:32
Speaker
That's a big question. um And I've given it some thought. You know, there's there's pain points with growing because, like I said, it takes two to five years for a guy to really deal with this problem.
00:58:47
Speaker
And, you know, that's where our leaders come from. It's the guy who stopped stepped in the door for the very first time three years ago that has done the work and has the charisma and desire and, you know, skill set to step into leadership and gets trained and certified to do that.
00:59:07
Speaker
um As hard as that is and as long as it takes, it can be even harder to find a church that's willing to open their doors and let us seed a group. you know They can be very guarded and worried about theological conflicts. you know They don't want you having access to their members because they can't control what you're going to say or if you know there might be changed beliefs or something. they They get very guarded about that. and
00:59:37
Speaker
And I understand. But, um you know, the products that we're utilizing are either from Pure Desire or a very similar Christian purveyor of recovery materials. And they go through great pains to make sure that they don't step out of bounds with, you know, any particular um theology. You know, so it's sort of vanilla for christianity but i just oftentimes get resistance and so one way that the institute could help if they have established church relationships that could be leveraged um that could be huge um when we talk about
01:00:22
Speaker
really impacting the illicit sex markets in our communities and helping the human sex trafficking problem, there is a lot of low-hanging fruit in the prison system.
01:00:36
Speaker
So,
01:00:41
Speaker
We always start a group with the movie The Heart of Man, which I think is the single best body of work introducing the subject of sex addiction that's ever been produced.
01:00:54
Speaker
And they were filming it 10 years ago. It came out in 2017. I'm a huge fan, as you can tell. But in um that documentary, Paul, can't remember Paul's last name, but he wrote the movie The Shack.
01:01:10
Speaker
And he was a victim of sexual abuse as a child. And he says that there's nothing quite like sexual abuse, that it climbs into the deepest, most holy, sanctified pieces of our being, the parts that should never be broken.
01:01:35
Speaker
And it breaks them. It rips them apart. And if you were to ask me what is the single biggest driver of the sex market and human sex trafficking in the world, it's child sexual abuse.
01:01:51
Speaker
Because over 75% of traffickers were abused as children.
01:01:59
Speaker
And um it can be what drives a buyer. It could be the unresolved trauma trauma that a buyer is trying to self-medicate with his sexual addiction.
01:02:11
Speaker
I work with men in the prison all the time, and they're they're in prison in Florida because they acted out with a minor. That's the felony. If you try to buy an adult, it's still just a misdemeanor in this state, which is another problem that needs to be addressed.
01:02:26
Speaker
But um people can't believe it when I tell them that. But this recovery group structure that we have, it has the power to interrupt the generational cycles of abuse that live, uh, exist in these families.
01:02:44
Speaker
You know, these guys are going to get out of prison. They're going to get wives. They're going to have kids. And we want that type of abuse
Redemption and Recovery in Society
01:02:51
Speaker
to stop. And if we don't help them, you know, if we can't stop being the good, uh, Christians that love Jesus and become the great Christians that can love the Judases of this world,
01:03:07
Speaker
and help those who have offended us so deeply, <unk>re we're never going to be able to bring an end to it. That's where we need to be helping. um We need to be helping everywhere.
01:03:19
Speaker
But, you know we have groups in the church for guys who are dabbling in porn, right? And we have groups in the prison and post-prison groups to help guys that have committed some serious sexual sin.
01:03:31
Speaker
um And ah if you ever watch the movie The Shack, the message there is that God loves all of us. And even the worst sinners are worthy of his redemption.
01:03:44
Speaker
And, you know, that's a really positive message. I want to actually share a story real quick um on the concept of groups because I really want people to get like, what is the recovery group? What does that look like and feel like?
01:03:56
Speaker
I was watching the West Wing 25 years ago. And they had a Christmas special called Noel. And they tell this story. This guy's walking down the street when he falls in a hole.
01:04:10
Speaker
And the walls are so deep he can't get out. A doctor passes by and the guy shouts up, hey you, can you help me out? And the doctor writes out a prescription, throws it down in the hole, and moves on.
01:04:22
Speaker
Then a priest comes along and the guy shouts up, Father, I'm down in this hole. Can you help me out? The priest writes out a prayer, throws it down in the hole, and moves on. Then a friend walks by.
01:04:36
Speaker
Hey, Joe, it's me. Can you help me out? And the friend jumps in the hole. i Our guy says, Are you stupid? Now we're both down here. But the friend says, Yeah, but I've been down here before, and I know the way out.
01:04:53
Speaker
That's the group leader. If you've ever seen the movie The Forge with this mentorship between younger men and older men, it's the same dynamic. These recovery groups are Christian forges to deal with this problem.
01:05:10
Speaker
Thank you again for helping um us kind of talk about the toughness this this this tough discussion of how do we help end sexual addiction, so as sexual um ah struggles.
01:05:27
Speaker
through pornography and everything like that, um as as as large as buying sex and contributing to ah directly into the the commercial sex industry, how can we as a church deal with that?
01:05:40
Speaker
And it's first accepting the fact that I very well might have a congregation that is buying sex and or, or just someone in my congregation is buying sex and or, I should expect that everyone in my congregation has been introduced to porn.
01:05:56
Speaker
That's the normality. the The introduction of porn is what's normal. Not us just accepting it, but just understanding that it's true.
01:06:08
Speaker
Then how do we start helping ah with that in mind? How do we start bringing that into more of a discussion inside the church so that we open the door for someone to say, actually, I'm having struggles with that?
01:06:20
Speaker
How can we put a counselor in front of someone to for them to go to so that they they can now go to their spouse? Or then also direct them toward, okay, it's it's more than just a struggle, brother.
01:06:36
Speaker
You're addicted. Hey, it's more than just this. I would suggest this. Hey, let me walk you down to this therapy group. And for that counselor, for that person, whether they're a pastor, whether a deacon, whether there's someone, a good friend, walking through life together, as we often say in church, you may have to go with your friend to that therapy group.
01:07:02
Speaker
And that's hard, too, because you're not involved and you may have to live that shame. But that's what we're called to do. And also, naturally, not forgetting about the spouse and helping direct toward a a group that can help both and heal that or.
01:07:22
Speaker
Find a way to recover both individuals. They're going to be they're accepting and understanding there will be consequences sometimes, some worse than others. um But ultimately, finding a way to provide that resource.
01:07:38
Speaker
is a must and if there's no resources then there's your first answer or is is your first that's your first um there's first stop how do i bring that resource here for my people that's what a shepherd should do in my opinion and that's what we as a society should begin doing and not relying on the shepherd in that situation what i'm referring to as a pastor i guess in this situation So how can we society do all these things?
01:08:06
Speaker
How can we as a church do all these things? um that's where we That's what I wanted this episode to be about. was It's not just about the resources being available. right It's about how we make them available and how we bring them to the person and how we walk through it with them.
01:08:21
Speaker
right
Conclusion and Call to Action
01:08:22
Speaker
As hard as that can be. I'd like to share one story about what the end of this looks like, have what the resources bring. We can talk about what the problem is, what the resources are, but why.
01:08:33
Speaker
We had an event not too long ago where the stage was shared between ah man who's a former buyer and his wife and another speaker who was there, a lady who was trafficked, oh was also speaking. She was kind enough to come and share her story.
01:08:53
Speaker
They each had a number of traumatic events in their childhood. They each acted out in the world of pornography, and it continued to escalate and escalate to the point where he was buying and she was selling.
01:09:04
Speaker
And the wife who was offended was also there. And to be able to see at the end of this where they were able to embrace and and forgiveness, even though they weren't interacting directly with each other ah in the in the acting out behaviors, but they're both from each world. And all three partners in this were able to have a moment of forgiveness and and connection.
01:09:29
Speaker
That's why we're doing all this, is for everyone who's been so wounded through this journey perversion brought on by Satan and taking what is holy and making it unholy for them to heal from all that and have a place where they are unified and embracing and part of the same body of Christ is why we do all this. It's the story of redemption.
01:09:53
Speaker
I'm sorry about the stuff they're going through. I'm sorry about the pain. I would love for you to not have to do these anything more, ah do all these things anymore and go through the suffering, but we do it to get to the end, which is redemption and reconciliation.
01:10:07
Speaker
Thanks, guys. Thanks for listening to our episode. If you have not subscribed to our podcast, please do so. If you want to look into further educational resources to prevent human trafficking in your area um and learn how to better assist direct service providers of commercial sex victims, please visit usiahd.org slash abolitionist to become an abolitionist.
01:10:32
Speaker
Our Abolitionist subscribers receive access to all of our resources, emails, and action plans to make America a trafficking-free zone. That's usiahd.org slash abolitionist.