Transcript
Speaker: But that's the magic of good pairing. kind i like you find You find good pairings, and you kind of hold them in your you know you put them in yeah under your sleeve and you pull them out at dinners and people go like, oh what happened here?
Speaker: G'day, James from The Crafty Pint here. As you'll be aware if you've listened to last week's weekly news podcast, we're changing the way we do things with The Crafty Pint podcast ongoing. There's still going to be show every Thursday focused on the weekly news, sometimes with special guests. However, we're bringing in the long form interviews and the panel discussions out to run every other Tuesday. And this is going to be the first of those.
Speaker: We've got some great guests first time up. Rob and Bron Cabour will be familiar to many people who've been around the Melbourne beer scene for years. They used to run the awesome Mericoat in Westgarth. It was a place that combined great food, a legendary cheese trolley, an award-winning wine list and Rob's passion for beer and food pairing.
Speaker: These days Bron is working with Annie Smithers at the legendary du Fermier in Dalesford while Rob has just opened a new restaurant, Rouet in Kyneton. We figured that made it a great time to bring them onto the show to talk about their lengthy careers in hospitality their beer epiphanies, their travels around the world, and their love for beer and food pairing.
Speaker: We also challenge them do a spot of food pairing live on the show as well. So come back and join us after the break. Cheers.
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Speaker: Rob Bronn, welcome to the show. Thanks for travelling in from country Victoria to to the Big Smoke to come and see us. Pleasure to be here. Hello, listeners. Hi, James. Do you get in too often these days? Or are you are you fully, you know, regional Victorians now? Pretty regional. pretty region yeah it's it's We have no need to leave. now Every now and again we we come down, have yeah have dinner, do an event.
Speaker: big concert or concerts are still... Realize why you live in the in the regions. Oh yeah, yeah today today's traffic. Brunswick Inn, it's kind of like, yeah. Don't miss this. Yeah, don't miss this. Not one second of it. ah but Obviously, you're keeping yourselves busy. I thought we'd start with what you're up to now. and And Rob, you got in touch me just a few weeks ago, launched a new business, Rua. Do you want to tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, Rua. Neo-Bistro Victorian-driven produce in Kyneton. Small 20-something seats with my my business partner, Daniel Salagari.
Speaker: um Yeah, spanking new. very like This is the start of week four for us. yeah So it's it's it's a bit of a a maelstrom, a whirlwind. but in In a good way. i mean and is it sort of Is it a bit of a crystallization of of all the things that you've sort of done over the years or where you're at now in terms of what what you want to do with it with hospitality as a chef? Yeah, for sure. Daniel's been doing doing it for about 30 years. I've been cooking for about 30 years. And I think between the two of us to make you know a bistro where you can go like, yeah, no, we don't need to follow the rules. We can just do it at our own our own pace, our own idea, our own identity. And if they don't like it, suck it. kind of like yeah this is This is what we're going to do. yeah And that creates so much yeah lovely freedom in in a lot of things. Kind of like yeah how we approach service, how we approach the drinks list, how we...
Speaker: present food, think about food, the food that we serve. yeah I've always had a ah real love for that region of of central central Victoria. The produce is second to none. The produce is second none. And every single little town or village you go into, it's like, this is really cute. This is lovely. I could live here. Yeah, yeah. and And there's some amazing producers that love their... There's a guy that...
Speaker: or a lady actually, that grows amazing carrots. There's a guy that has amazing pork. There's a guy yeah that that does beef. And they're all within, but well, nearly a stone's throw of where we're cooking. So that that makes for for some joyous, joyous things. Well, one of mates that lives there, I'm sure they get their bread from a guy who just makes to order at his house. Is he schoolteacher or that there's there's's something? There's something, think he even has like ah an actual... retail, proper retail, it's like I would like this to pick up these loaves on this day kind of thing, which is seems very lovely and very sort of in keeping with you know what you're talking about. yeah yeah
Speaker: Yeah, that's that's probably twofold. They bake a couple of days a week. yeah You have to go there, pick up this little brown bag. that's That sounds like the one. Yeah, and they just do the local farmer's markets every Sunday, I think, as well. Yeah, yeah it's great. Yeah. now is it we what We go camping with some mates every now and then. and whichever direction you go, whatever town you go into, it everything just feels kind of wholesome and and and and good. And it's all going well. mean, you say 20 seater venue? Yeah, 24. And we squeeze it can be But... I mean, then that's the other thing. We we don't want to we don't want to be you know squeezing in people. We want people to come in, feel joyous, relaxed, close the door, or forget about the outside world for a bit, sit back, eat, drink, be merry, and cruise out of here cruise out of there you know once once we are them. And so you're coming up to your four-week anniversary like we are with our sibling publication. Bron, you were saying eight years now with with Annie Smethers at Du Firmier. So so was that pretty were you pretty much straight into that once you um left south Melbourne? Yeah. Yeah. we
Speaker: i I did a ah few shifts at the Lincoln actually. was a few months actually. that I don't know many people that haven't done a few shifts at the Lincoln to be honest. We've all hung out there. I remember at that time the boys from Caretakers were there as well. and There were quite a few of us hanging out. was great fun. But yeah, there was a period of time between that and then yet we bought the house and and I'd actually said to Annie, I'll look if you have any shifts. ...and come up and she was doing nights for a month or something. So I did that and then offered me a full-time job. and
Speaker: I would have been a bit of a match made in heaven for her as well. guy and you You know, you sort of walk coming into her... you her um What's the word? Orbit at that time as well, I'd have thought. Yeah. was ah look I think it was perfect timing. And look, she gives me complete autonomy. It's really like still having my own business. Like she just trusts me to do me and it's great.
Speaker: Yeah. I can't believe it's been that long actually. And when I think that includes COVID during this period of time where we could just do 10 people at a time and it was just her and i um it was basically like a little intimate dinner party. um Yeah, I'm like, that's got to be like at least double that now, time-wise. But yeah, it's hard to believe it's been that long. it's been But it's great. yeah You know, four lunches. It's like the dream hospitality job. I do call it the unicorn job. Yeah. It's been almost a decade and now since you sold Merri-Cote. Rob, you've done you've spent some time in Sydney, you've been back at home. and i think you said there a period when we just spoke when Leca was about to open where you were basically just cooking food at home for Bron and sort biding your time. But what's it been like? Because I guess it would have been incredibly intense running that business. you know It was a beautiful business, everyone loved going there, but you don't run a business that well without putting the effort in. So what's it been like sort of going from that period as a married couple ...running Marycote and then just like, oh, now we have our own separate things again.
Speaker: was going to say, I think what the added complexity was that the......how long were you at Key before closed? Like three years, four years? I can't remember now. Four and half years. So he was based in Sydney working and would come home basically once a fortnight. So we were kind of...it was wild. Yeah. I was doing Marycote, you were doing Key. He'd come down every couple of weeks. So it went from, yeah, just it was full on to then closing the restaurant. And you were still there for a little while. Yeah, hadn't realised the crossover that long. Between the two businesses, that's right. It was a crossover period where Maricote had, you know, chefs.
Speaker: And so i I went to help Pete in in Sydney. But also kind of once Maricote was closed, kind of I was still in Sydney, Bron had a sabbatical, i yeah i was doing and yeah worked worked around, yeah hired Gunn.
Speaker: But it was very nice because I got into a position where you know we could go to concerts, theater shows, stuff that we couldn't do Maricote wise. Where we were kind of boyfriend, girlfriend again. Yeah, we were kind of friends. That was very nice. I'll say after, God, how many years of marriage by that stage? Like 13 or something? A lot. yeah Yeah. Next year is 30 years that we've been together.
Speaker: Oh, there you go. Wow. It's a little wild. A little wild. You don't look nearly old enough. My wife had a 20th wedding anniversary recently and no one said that to us. Well, they might have said it her, but they certainly didn't say I didn't look old enough.
Speaker: um And just for a bit of context, i mean, you mentioned sort of, you know working at Quay and the crossover there. I mean, you'd actually worked at Quay before um Melbourne and before Merricko, is that right? So there had been a history there. You weren't sort of plucked from... Maricote to go and work there. and I guess was it something that you felt you couldn't sort of say no despite the fact you had this business in Melbourne?
Speaker: ah No, so so i i yeah I was at Quay before, did some other other things, and of eventually Maricote. And at Maricote at that stage we we had two chefs doing doing an excellent job.
Speaker: We were toying with maybe a second venue, second operation. Within the city? Yeah, yeah within basically within Westgarth. That would have been ideal. um And it it the conversation was kind of like Pete was opening Benelong, so the number two to key. He had just lost the head chef.
Speaker: And we it it was over a conversation. And then I think I said something along the lines of like, yeah, I'll help you out for a bit. and Four years later. yeah for yeah and and Yeah, and four years later I was still there. um No, and it it was... yeah
Speaker: it that Yes, the transition was very hard you know to come from yeah living and working in Sydney again. um But it came easy because I had been there before. I ran that that little bistro you know before. So I knew all the ins and outs and that that made for the made for a really nice ah you know stepping back into into the chef de cuisine role.
Speaker: Plus the edit of, you know, we could actually hang out and have weekends off. And I got really good at my my air miles and my flyer miles.
Speaker: And yeah, no, it kind of worked. i don't I think if it hadn't worked that well within, say, the first three months, it would have been a, I'll help you out for a bit and I'm out.
Speaker: But it it worked very well. it was very nice. It was actually very nice to work with with the team and the the size at of the brigade get. And also probably a year after i I came back there, we renovated. So we had the opportunity to start all over again from the ground up where Pete threw out all of his food, ideas, and dishes and started from scratch. And that was that as a chef, that's something that you know that's this very tingling kind of way. Well, especially when you're doing it at a place with such a legacy anyway. You know what mean? It's not like you're just coming in...
Speaker: carte blanche is actually something that you have to build on something so yeah incredibly well respected. And that was yeah it's it's amazing. and And also kind of ah the opportunity to be involved with drinks, pairings, beer pairings, wine pairings, not so much because, you know, the Somme team there is or was amazing. But to actually be involved in all those aspects and learn and just for me to absorb yeah the ideas that that we you know could play with was was amazing.
Speaker: what what sort What sort of opportunities were there within Ann Key for offering beer pairing dishes? Was that same something that was, you know, was it even a slightly significant part of part of the operation?
Speaker: ah Yeah, all all drinks were always considered. um I don't think we ever had a I'm sure we could have, but there was very little demand for a beer pairing throughout the whole menu. yeah But for sure we had yeah we had all sorts of amazing beers in that cellar.
Speaker: And then the stuff that we did take... Were they there before you went in or did you sort of go in and say, this is the condition, this is what I had Mary Coat? This is not a a rider I had. I thought about it. Anyone seen Rob? Yeah, he's in the beer cellar. He's in the beer No, it that that kind of just grew, i think, naturally where when we started playing with the the food and the pairing, there was a non-alcoholics pairing. There was a wine pairing, a premium wine pairing and say a drinks pairing.
Speaker: But I was always kind of like, well, if we say drinks, there should be a good beer. I remember talking to... ah Matt from Bolt Rocker.
Speaker: God, what was that beer called? Sternweiss? Oh, yeah, Sternweiss. Yeah, that was incredible. Incredible beer. The double barrel, Chardonnay barrel aged Berliner Weiss or something. Yeah. of my favorites. Stunning. So I actually talked to Matt and I said, hey, listen, guy like you know I think that beer with that dish, because I knew all the dishes pretty much,
Speaker: that would be, and so I think he sent sent up a six pack. I think eventually he actually came to key with, you know, here's the range and we had a tasting in the kitchen. And so I noticed Sternwise was on, on for, for a while.
Speaker: I think we need to send Matt a message and go, you bringing that back anytime soon? I'm just getting very fond memories that incredible beer. I would love to see that again. That one, the Gaston. yeah kind i yeah If we're going to talk, Matt, there's a few there's a few in in in his range that he should bring back. um but so So there were beers there, but then also, and I think this is the the thing with most restaurants, they always concentrate on the wine wine pairings. Beer pairings are often...
Speaker: often the forgotten child. Most of them do have beers. And as as you said earlier, kind of like the the beer menus or the beer cards in restaurants, are you can tell. kind of like If they're into beer, they're cracking little beer lists. it's denying Because you can do a lot with six or eight beers if you know what you're doing. You can cover a lot of grounds, a lot of yeah texture and flavor. yeah And then there's places that just...
Speaker: Dogs. Yeah. yeah And in terms of, I guess, for the two of you, the, hate to use the phrase, but the journey into the world of beer sort of began, wasn't sort something that you brought into the world of chefing or hospital, but started in Melbourne. it the Montague? Was actually when you went to Hotel Max? It was around that era, sort of, around about, it was before I moved here, but there was sort of, started doing some incredible beer dinners with John Cope Williams and In that real early Craft Beer was just starting to break through. That would have been Montague. Late Montague, early. remember Montague we… That's a pub in South Melbourne isn't it? Yeah. Montague and Park.
Speaker: The owners we had there were very… Very free, very nice to trust us in in things. And we had just had our honeymoon in in the South Island.
Speaker: Bumped into ah Emerson's. And I think it was the Tari George. Tari George. Yeah. I remember Bookbinder and the Pilsner. It tasted like Christmas. I went like, holy business.
Speaker: What a beer is this? yeah And so we ended up at the Montague. We had the whole range. yeah We had everything from Emerson's. Well, i remember when I first moved here, um thankfully there was a handful of venues, either that yeah Tom Delmont was doing his pub quiz, his trivia at, yeah or that through John Cote Williams, you got to find like the Gem had some stuff in Collingwood, near where we lived at the time. yeah And you sort of go, if a pub had some Epic or some Emerson's on, when...
Speaker: Australian brewers were struggling to get into pubs, you'd happily go there and pay whatever it was for the bottle price just knowing you were getting something good. you know it was like a real safety net for sort of people in that sort late 2000s before you know the Australians craft beer really started getting into more places. Yeah, and I think kind of like the the beer dinner with John especially, that would have been max.
Speaker: Yeah. a Very late Montague, probably max. i remember I actually remember I had a little scooter one morning, and I'm going to say this is like a a Saturday, Sunday morning, days off.
Speaker: um I jumped on my scooter, had gotten some oysters and a couple of little garnishes, drove to John's place, got there and we did like a little tasting of things with oysters forice for this beer dinner. And I remember sitting there and he had this little keg in his in his room and and we had like, I think it was a Beechworth, Robust Porter, something portery local. And we both sat there and we're like, fuck, this is good. We need to do this in a dinner. He goes like,
Speaker: i like people are going to love it or hate it. yeah like I don't know, John, but I had bre read this thing about Michael Jackson, the guru, that he had, you know, voices in Porter and so therefore it should work. He goes like, yeah, but they're not going to believe that shit. yeah And as it turns out, you know, people did...
Speaker: know it'd bed be becoming they they but those stone You did a number of dinners there, is that right? And they became sort of…they would have been I guess like cult occasions on the…you know for the early adopters of craft beer… …just like you know the early days at the original Mountain Goat venue… you know …once a month or whatever it was would have been as well. um and and And how did it go from that sort of into to America? Were you guys already discussing getting your own place at that point? And, you know, and was once you sort of got to that point, was it always like, you know, beer will have to be, you know, more prominent than it is at pretty much every every other restaurant in in Australia at the minute?
Speaker: Yeah, I think um America came, think it was, yeah, we finished at the Montague when it sold. And we were pretty determined. It was like, I think it's time. I think we need to give our own thing a go. And I think because we're both beer drinkers, we found it really frustrating. Like it was really limiting where like restaurants you go and eat at. And it just wasn't, it just it wasn't exciting. It wasn't a great offering. And it I think between with the food using Rob's Dutch Heritage, obviously a more modern interpretation of that. And it really lent itself to beer. And it was something that we were really passionate about. And because there was no backer and it was just our money on the line, it was like, let's just have all the things we want, you know? Yeah. Yeah. The incredible cheese trolley as well. yeah Have all the things and if nobody orders it, we'll take it home and drink it. And I think with that attitude of... and And I suppose that safety net of... Bromwens line was always kind of if you don't like it, we'll we'll take it away. We'll get you something else to drink. okay And so people felt safe with that.
Speaker: And then if you create that safety and trust, people start trusting you. So the next time you show up with a a fancy beer or a beer that they may not be comfortable with, they will trust you you know because you have shown that trust. And it's it's ah it's a building thing. And then you know on the probably in in that same era, there's yeah there's a Costa walking around with yeah imported Belgium yeasts where you go like, this beer.
Speaker: and and this food and this dish. And then there's a Matt Hewton who's you know screaming on the top of his on his little beer keg yeah that food and beer should go together. And then Good Beer Week is is around. So all of a sudden you're talking to two, three brewers and you go like, right, cool, how far can we go? And then I think it was Matt who went like,
Speaker: Degustation, all beer. Cool, let's go. we had We had already experimented with that with with with John at at the Max and, you know, kind of the the Emerson beers, some of the the Beachwood stuff.
Speaker: I want to say there was a Grand Ridge dinner in there somewhere because they they had a bit really nice yeah yeah really nice little lineup of of progression. And I remember for...
Speaker: yeah For good beer week, like the Frolic About ah series, yeah I think the first one was very considerate where we went like, cool, we start low ABV and work ourselves up. And the second year, i think there was nothing under 8%. And we just we got a whole dining room. What was the year with the the smoking cigars?
Speaker: ah ah The cigar. The cigars. ah Probably year. I reckon it was the second year. Maybe three. Yeah. But it was that it was it was completely like no parameters, no barriers. It's like, not just with the beers, but it's like, let's just give people, let's just take...
Speaker: Take things as far as we possibly can and just give people something to enjoy but talk about endlessly. I think and we found our people, right? We found our community. Like it was some particularly with that annual like Volocobo. It was like there were people that would come every single year. It was like catching up with old friends every year. It was really it was actually really special. I love the fact that even when it had to move to the brewery and you know getting people out to Brayside, it still sold out. you know People still came. It's like, yeah okay, it's no longer in Westgarth Village. It's now in a spacious warehouse. Industrial estate. In a suburb population zero. yeah um But people would still come. yeah It just showed that the the faith and the you know the um the satisfaction people would have got from it. Yeah, and I think the freedom...
Speaker: the the freedom
Speaker: Matt, bless Matt, kind i like he was just happy for anything to happen to his beer. you know And we we talked, you remember when we when we lit up all the whiskey? We did a little bomb Alaska's and he had made the, what was the whiskey called?
Speaker: Forget Me Not? Oh, yeah, yeah. The Forgotten Beer Whiskey. And so we talked about maybe we do something with spirits. yeah He's doing a little bit of spirit stuff.
Speaker: and he goes, like, sure, like, whatever you want, whatever. And I'm like, yeah, but I'm thinking about, you know, flambéing with the eco sure it so He And so we just lit up, like, this delicious whiskey over over a bomb Alaska. We turned one of his dramjets into floats.
Speaker: I think one year we toyed with making a hop fairy floss because, know, we knew how to get hop flavors into sugar and kind of, And so the the freedom to from a chef's point of view, to do whatever with and with his beers is amazing. And in return, yeah I suppose, yeah, the cigar. The cigar keeps haunting me. Kind of like it was just a little you know cigar, something smoky with this stout.
Speaker: And you know many years later, people still talk about Yeah. It was pretty incredible. It was fun. Especially the the um the ash. you know that I think that was the pièce de résistance creating the ash as well. I'm trying to think about cabbage maybe? Cabbage or raspberry? It had to look like a cigar. yeah kind just You can't just put a cannoli on a plate call it cigar. I think, yeah, you're really big on a bit of humor too and interaction and just...
Speaker: I don't know. It's kind of like creating memories too. Like I still remember there was a dish that we did at Maricote with the hay. the hoi better. um And I can't remember, as I'll say, everyone you did as well. And there was always a beer recommendation with it. I can't remember the dish exactly. But it was such a talking point. Like it was a really nice point of connection. um Yeah. And they were usually were dishes that were centred around going with a beer from memory too with you. It was a real real thing. Yeah. And did you find, um you know, that reputation got out there, that A, you know, I guess people who like beer would come to the restaurant as punters, but also that, you know, obviously breweries, I'm sure all the reps came flocking, but did other, did some your peers in sort of the, the chefing and the hospital world sort start looking and going, well, hang on, what's going on here? Cause it, you know, you,
Speaker: There were you know more and more good pubs and bars around......and some of them were doing sort of decent food. But there was nothing really...you know, we you mentioned Good Beer Week before. We'd get some of events where we'd take over a venue......or breweries would work with a venue and they'd do a one-off incredible event......but it was generally every now and then. So did you you know did you find that there was interest? People sort of peering over the fence and going, what's going on over here?
Speaker: There was definitely...I think we had really good industry support. Like people would, yeah, come and... Yeah, look at look at what we were doing and and they would come regularly. Like for me that was the greatest compliment, you know, where they yeah they enjoyed what we were doing. so And I particularly heard a lot of that after we left, which is lovely. um Yeah, I always found it really supportive. like it it And we we were always collaborative or happy to share information as well, but there was no gatekeeping. Like the more people that got excited about beer and gave an offering that represented the industry...
Speaker: why More widely. It's never going to be the same as wine, unfortunately. not i don't think anyway. But yeah, anyone that was on board with it, we were super keen to sort of share.
Speaker: mean Meanwhile, Bromain did write excellent wine lists as well. yeah likere We're winning winning a few awards along the way. There's a little bit of the other side there as well. was it Was it three years back to back you went with Wine List of the Year or something? Yes. We'll say it for you. legend I say I really wanted the beer one and I never got it. I always felt disappointed about that one.
Speaker: I think that was the one I was passionate about. the Since Mericote did close, has beer managed to, I guess, keep beer playing a role within what you've done since? I mean, I get guess you've been sort of guided by what you can do within Adifirmier, but you've you've had a number of different roles over the years. Have you been able to sort of keep beer in some way there? ah Yeah.
Speaker: the The dinners are sort of something you have managed to maintain on occasion, yeah yeah even outside of the day-to-day roles you've been doing. Yeah, and I think kind of, you know, then the pub for the last couple of, you know, 18 months, it was really nice to be in ah in a pub environment and actually say, you know, kind of, we should have these beers. And as as we're talking about these beers, be able to say like, oh, that beer, you know, it's an easy sell with that dish. Or if hey somebody says like, hey, what do you recommend? Mm-hmm.
Speaker: that one or that one and kind of... yeah And you'd think if people are in you know in a sort of and nice dining environment and someone actually says that and doesn't put a wine forward, if they're in any way vaguely adventurous, that's kind of make them go, oh this place is more interesting than everywhere else I've been. You know, as long as they didn't like the pairing, I suppose. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I think, kind of yeah again, it comes back to that that that threshold of of trust and and and safety. you know it's It's no longer... in And that's the other thing. We look back at Maricode days.
Speaker: Things were a little cheaper, a little easier, economic speaking. you know without Without the doom and gloom of current days, there is the the safety was easier to achieve, right? Because it was a bit cheaper. You could go out you know once a month, once a week, where now people have to save up a little bit more. and So the in order to get their trust, you need to work harder. Yeah.
Speaker: to actually do something a little bit crazier or you know what is perhaps not in the in the norm. um But yeah, ive like and I think for us, you know on our travels,
Speaker: Beer has always been around. Yeah. is this ah Let's not jump too far ahead though, because I'm keen to talk about your travels in part two. And in fact, maybe maybe that's a good point to take a short break. And I'm going to come back after the break with some beers and see what you pair them with. So I'll see you after the break Thank you. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers.
Speaker: Cheers
Speaker: Hey listeners, Will here and I'm joined once again by Sam Bethune, Technical Sales Specialist at Bintani. How are you, Sam? I'm good, mate. It's been a long time since we chatted. It has been so long. It's wonderful to see my old friend again and we're here to talk about another Bintani Brewery Booster. Sam, brewing's never easy. What are some ways though that brewers can simplify their day-to-day life?
Speaker: But we had a couple of minutes, so wanted to just give a couple of things to make your life easier on the brew house. If you're listening in like me and can't taste diacetyl or it's ever in your mind that someone said your beer is butterscotchy or something like that, make sure you throw in some ALDC, alpha-acetolactate decarboxylase, to um bypass that step in the diacetyl pathway and make sure your beers are put through quicker and um yeah won't taste of butterscotch.
Speaker: Yeah, right. And you know, if anything's slowing them down on brew day, um any issues in the fermenter or anything like that, what are some options? One go-to which still surprises me that ah some people aren't across it are beta-glucanase in your mash. So see a lot of people using rice hulls for good measure to add in some filtration filtration aids when they're brewing.
Speaker: Rice hulls, very cheap, but have increasingly got more expensive just because it's expensive to ship them around these days. So if you find you're paying too much for some of these sort of products, i always consider an enzymatic solution. Beta-glucanase, chuck some in, get your water done, get home and get on with your life.
Speaker: Oh, wonderful. And you know, what about if they wanted to use something like Biofine Clear? Is there any key things they must do? I am really glad you asked that, Will. Biofine Clear, look, it's ah it's an important one for Hayes stability, but it is one that I probably get more questions than any other um in the inbox through about why it isn't working, what's going on with it and that sort of thing. um So a really great product to aid in beer clarity, but really varies between the type of beer you're using it with. Some of the dosage rates on it are recommended between 20 and 200 grams a hectolitre or thereabouts. It will vary by which beer you're using it in. So make sure to do a benchtop trial if you haven't before. um If you need any help with that, please reach out to us. And also don't store it in the fridge. I know it's sort of most people for enzymes, other other sort of things put in the fridge, but for this particular one, it'll actually stratify and and ruin the product very quickly. so If any of you have it in the fridge, get it out of there. It won't necessarily mean that it can't be used, but warm it up. Give it a good shake before you use. And then on your next batch, yeah, make sure you store it ambient and still give it a good shake before you use it.
Speaker: And Sam, we all know there are some incredible gluten-free brewers in Australia. One of them in particular keeps winning awards overseas. But, you know, if if brewers were looking to reduce the gluten within their beer, what are their options there? Yeah, a good shout. As with our wife who's a celiac, it's an important sort of topic, ah anything around gluten, to certainly make sure any claims you sort of make are backed up by by testing, in particular with ingredients and that sort of thing. But increasingly there's an interest in this sort of space and we've certainly found one product product in Brewers Clarex finding great role as an enzyme that degrades proline and reduces the gluten content of beer in most cases to a level where in any other market they'd be considered gluten-free.
Speaker: One thing to be aware of with that product because it is reducing a protein it can have some haze implications if you're looking to use it in in a hazy beer. But anything that's less hazy and particularly clearer beer styles, a great way to add in and reduce the gluten content of your beer. Many brewers are using it sort of successfully and increasingly being allowed for customers with ah a lower level, I guess, ah lower level severity to the gluten intolerance to be allowed to drink their beers again with that sort of um thing. So, yeah, one to consider if you're not using it. and doing Doing a great world for people that you know have that gluten sensitivity.
Speaker: Definitely. sam thanks for joining me once again. Thanks, Will. Cheers.
Speaker: Welcome back. So um i thought we'd kick off part two with a couple of beers. I haven't told you anything about them whatsoever. I thought just let you and your marvellous palates have a bit of a swirl and a sniff and a taste and see what you think you'd pair it with. Brandon, would you be the person who suggests cheese pairing or, you know? and Yeah, I tend to, it's it's definitely my go-to.
Speaker: So we've got a nice, rich, malty, toasty, maybe little bit nutty beer here. Yeah, little nutty. Like it's... Tasty.
Speaker: It's very tasty, actually. You know, with tastings... um i ah I often, the way I structure it in my head, it's like, do I want this to complement the dish, contrast the dish, or cut something in the dish, right? Would that be with drinks pairings, or would that be with even when you're compiling a dish of, you know, just the food elements on a plate as well?
Speaker: No, a dish should be homogenous, its harmous harmonious, nice. kind of like yeah You can have elements of a sour or a salt or yeah something in there, but usually with the with a pairing, whether that be a beer or a wine, I look for those one of those three, and then you start leaning in.
Speaker: yeah kind of so Doing this in reverse where you taste this beer, it's got a little like a little hint of like copper, metal-y kind of things towards the end. So seafood would be oyster-esque. You would nearly go smoked eel.
Speaker: beetroot maybe, turnip, hint of garlic, a crispy of some sort. I love the fact there's a bit of a pause at the start and then once you start going, it's like the Rolodex is just spinning at 100 miles an hour. It just needs to you know it just needs to trickle down into into where, and I suppose it needs to trickle down into the catalogue of flavours.
Speaker: like it needs to It needs to sit somewhere nicely and then when when you you know then you can start creating the dish. well It's the sort of beer as well. I think initially for me that that sort of caramel, sort of like sweet, sort of nutty thing is there first, but once it's sort of settled into the palate, there is a bit more of a dryness to it and a bit more of that sort of toasty thing. yeah You almost do any time for it to fill the whole palate before you start making calls, I suppose. Yeah. See, I went totally different to you. guys to you Come on. No, well, and it's funny just because it's actually a dish that Annie's doing at the moment. It's called ravioli de Dauphin. So it's a really old dish from the southeast of France, from the Auvergne region. It's actually dish that's protected. So you'll make like a large sheet of and ravioli. So, you know, where you cut little individual ones, you'll mark them, but you cook it as a sheet. And traditionally it was filled with turnip.
Speaker: Disgusting. But now it's cheese. So it's either Gruyere or Comte. They would do it with creme fraise. She's used some ricotta and some parmesan. And then you just toss it in a bit of sage brown butter, bit of parmesan on top. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, because you haven't got that hot profile for me, I like that that sweet sort of maltiness that's happening there. like And because there's that bit of nuttiness, like wine-wise you would pour those bigger, richer style whites, like whether it's an oxidative, slightly oxidative Chardonnay or Sauvignon or something like that.
Speaker: I like weight-wise where that sits. There's a lot of sort of similarities profile-wise where I think it would cut through, but really cut through... um with the richness of the dish, but that you're not competing against hops in it. So, yeah, they're dry. Yeah, the sauce you described at the end, I'm like, yes, instantly you can see how they would go. yeah But then it's funny, when I hear Rob talk about matches like that, i'm like, oh, you've lost me completely. But I have complete faith and I know when I... Try it. It's like, oh, wow. You haven't even tasted it yet. Yeah, exactly. No, no, that's what I mean. I always am like, I don't know where you get this stuff from, but that's like awesome together. But yeah, this is like, this is a style of beer that I think particularly with the food that I work with now, which is French farmhouse. And he lovingly calls it peasant food. Yeah. Yeah, great. if I think that's not really... what it is but it's like they're yeah it sort of often screams those sort of dishes particularly really scream for me for those sort of beers like but that's like where i love to put a beer in front of people because i think it will change their perception about what beer can bring to a dish yeah i think that there's too much every essence again yeah but there's yeah there's exactly right So there's, um yeah, I just think that we just get so stuck in it. It's just, particularly in restaurants, it's beverage we start with, you know. yeah It just brings so much. Like, and that's, yeah, that that for me is where I like to go. It's interesting, I think we've spoken in the past, like you know you sort of say with beer, it's not just that you have more ingredients there air to play with, but you know you mentioned the effervescence there, so that' there's the carbonation with some beers, there's acidity as well, in that it's not just a case of going, here's the flavors and robes I'm playing with, it's like so much about the structure and what and what it can be doing texturally in terms of
Speaker: Partnering with the food. Everybody knows Pinot and Duck go well together because, you know, a thousand years ago they were doing Pinot and Duck and that kind of you know, history, history profiled there kind of thing. With beer, there is no...
Speaker: There's no real written history about, you know, porter should be served with. So the freedom the freedom in beer pairing is much, much bigger than, say, with wine, with Vinny's things. But also the the things you can rely on or play with in beers, like, you know, the esters, the yeasts, the, you know, When you when you have a saison that has that lovely bubble gummy thing, yeah, that's wild for food parent. You can go anywhere in the scale. um
Speaker: And I think that that freedom, freedom freedom and and yeah like I said to you, be brave. kind like yeah You're going to muck it up one day. There's things that you know will work, the stout with a brownie, that will work. It doesn't really matter which stout.
Speaker: Yeah, it's not going to be great with a Kolsch. Yeah, and i'm I'm sure I might mention this on an earlier podcast, but i remember back to Good Butte, the sort of key events we did there was the Brew vs. Crew. And the first one we did was with Brooklyn and Garrett Oliver, Voodamond, up against Martin Spedding from 10 Minutes by Tractor. And one of the dishes, i think Martin mostly brought Pinot and various sort of museum stock of his Chardonnay. But there's one, and there was the dish was like it was... Onions done three ways with bone marrow and some other. And Garrett put it up against one of their sort of ghost bottles. It was an 8% wheat beer with spice mix from some famous New York spice
Speaker: what would you say, it's not Spice Producer, Blender, I guess. yeah And it was like, that's just not going to work. And it's still the best match, ah best pairing I've ever had in my entire life. You go like, whatever. And you sort of absent-mindedly put both in your mouth and you're just like, and it was we we did a vote round the room, sort of, there was maybe 90 odd tickets sold. and at the end of each round, we do like but we scored it by table, but you you put your hands up or put a mark and sheet reach each round.
Speaker: i think it was maybe 92 people in there. And that particular course was 90 to two to the beer. And a lot of the others were sort of pretty close, but it was just like, wow. And it was just, a it wasn't one way you'd have looked down the list and go, yeah, that's going to do it. You know, sometimes you just you just know or you get lucky, I suppose. That's cool. But that's the magic of good pairing, kind of. Like you find you find good pairings and you kind of hold them in your, you know, you put them in yeah under your sleeve and you pull them out at dinners and people are like, oh,
Speaker: What happened here? Yeah, yeah. I think the first time we we we matched a pinky, Matt's raspberry rasberry number, we matched it Oh, holla goat?
Speaker: Yeah. With the raspberries. the raspberry and the cheese. and Yeah. when When you pull that one out, people go, really? Beer? Yeah, raspberry beer. Just... And they eat it and they yeah and they just go quiet.
Speaker: like You can see in their head kind of like trying to consolidate what is happening in their mouth and it's magic. It's it's one of those things where you go like, yeah, that's a pairing. kind of like yeah I'll pull that out any day.
Speaker: Yeah. I'm going go and pull out something a bit different next. I'll just, but before I forget, so this is a um bread lager from Marsden Brewhouse. It's part of the Laundie group in Sydney, sort of in the in the West.
Speaker: Okay, right, round of the pairing. um I've never had this beer before. I figured if I wasn't going to pull this bottle of the fridge, this would be... Good company to do it with.
Speaker: So not not dissimilar in colour, but very, very different in character. And also not from this country. Yeah. But also not from where you might think it was from.
Speaker: It's almost from another planet, you might suggest. Another era, another time. Another era, another time. this Is this like the old world, new world wine conversation? ah this is There's ah a couple, think they're the South Island of New Zealand, and they have a tiny little operation where they just make these sort of beers, but they live as if they're in a former era ah sort of life in in Northern Europe. The way they dress, the way they live, their house and everything, is and it's all...
Speaker: part of the the whole the whole thing. but um But yeah, what do you think? what do you think that the if It feels like a very sort of boat rocker, um you know, sort of rock matchup. close my eyes, I would nearly say it's 8wire.
Speaker: they They do that similar barrel-agey, sour yeah kind of bitzer of a beer, right? it yeah It's delicious. It's got like lovely little fruity notes.
Speaker: Long... Crazy, crazy. It's actually quite wild. kind of like That needs something. yeah now from From a food point, something safe.
Speaker: like It needs to be you know a nice piece of lamb. Just roasted rump. Just that for now. And just let this do all this with the decoration around it. Just let me act as quiet as you'll get right now. Give me your sec. But there is, I mean, because there's still a sweetness at the heart of You mentioned the fruitiness. There's an acidity and it's quite pronounced, but it's not aggressive. Like it's, I think actually quite a nice, like said, I've never tried this before. I picked up three bottles of these guys' beers in New Zealand a few months ago. Just like...
Speaker: I've always been fascinated by their story. Let's just take them and crack them at an appropriate time. I'll probably crack the other two with mates at the weekend. yeah But this certainly hasn't let me down. Like it said, it you know, it has a lot going on. love when you get that really distinct defined acidity, but it doesn't get it doesn't get too quenching. It doesn't get too aggressive. It doesn't. I was going to say, if for me, it's the acidity that really brings it onto, like, as a pairing thing, I can start to use it as I would a a wine. um That really, for me, that makes probably makes that part of it a bit easier. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, I get what you mean. I think, again, that acid that will cut through the richness of of a fattier piece of meat, I guess that's what where you're going with that, which totally makes sense to me. um Yeah, and you would nearly just throw a whole bunch of green vetch at that because yeah that's not there, right? it's It is fruity, it's acetic, it's...
Speaker: Quite dry, actually. Kind of like nice, you know, quite nice length, you know. Within season, broad beans, peas, asparagus, white asparagus.
Speaker: I feel like garlic scapes, maybe. Acidity will bring out those characteristics more too. Oh, yeah. With of the veg side of it, but it'll cut through the the the richer protein.
Speaker: Yeah. It's like super versatile for me. that This could go. Yeah. And and this could also go, you know, right at the start of the meal. It could also go in the middle or at the end, kind pending on, yeah. Yeah. that I think that richer richer kind of fattier piece of meat, rump cap, lamb rump, a good piece of Wagyu.
Speaker: And then, I mean, and i think, yeah, the the green veg. You don't mention pork. That I find interesting. Yeah. ah No, i just just I'm just asking. because like like it's and i think it's And I say that because I think also a lot of people, when they go down that beer and food pairing as a protein, they tend to automatically go to pork. Mm-hmm. So i was I just find it interesting. And as a guy who loves pork, loves to cook it, loves to eat it, I i was like, oh, that's really interesting. i love the fact that you don't think you'd even thought about it until Bron mentioned it either. it's like It hadn't opened that compartment of your brain at all, which is pretty amazing. Yeah. i actually I'm like, that's cool, yeah. and i Because I wouldn't, I think it needs, I don't think it's a white meat. No, it's not white meat. No, but I just, yeah, I'm just, I guess I'm testing the, You know, the common thing. If we do bring back this event next year, can I be sat in the room with you two when you're deciding on the pairings? Because this will be fascinating. yeah
Speaker: Well, you know, often, and and this has to be said about, you know, pairing, kind of like I will taste something and often I'll go, you know, it's a blueberry structure, dry, long tin, and da-da-da-da-da.
Speaker: And then Brahmin will taste it, say the same thing. And then at some stage there'll be a conversation about, oh, what? but but What do you think? am where do What do you feel? And often at Maricode, the dishes with pairings came from conversations. They're they're not, you know, um it's not like I'm the mastermind that i came up with it. There's always interaction with other people.
Speaker: Yeah, and that that goes as far as like when you do a beer dinner and you have a chat with the brewer, he or she. They'll bring something to the table. Yeah, and they might have very different views on a beer where I'll go like, oh, tasty hoppy.
Speaker: And then they go like, oh, yeah, but it's citra and simco and blah, blah, blah, you know, the magic of the esters. Yeah, You're like, yeah, cool. I didn't think of that at all. yeah and i like I thought it was nice and hoppy. My favourite thing, particularly with Rob, is I'll taste something and I'm really excited about it and want to serve it and I'll give it to him to try and he will create a dish around it or tweak a dish to make it make whatever I've given him um shine. and um i'm like that I feel very, yeah, that's really lucky when you've got that, you know, because it's... it's um
Speaker: Complementary. You don't cut and contrast. You complement each other. Yeah. Yeah, well, yeah, sometimes. Yeah, we can be fiery. We can both have very strong opinions at times, I think. But I think, yeah, but as part of that, it's't yeah, how we'll look at... I know if I'm looking to, yeah, just complement or cut or contrast, it's yeah it's always changing is what I want. and it And I think also when you give it to people, people react...
Speaker: differently to those three things. Some people really love to see something that completely contrasts. Some people just are just like, I don't understand why you would do that. So, um I mean, yeah actually at work at the moment, we ah we do two different drinks with it with the course when they're doing pairing. so that's kind of fun. You can kind of give people a couple of options. It can be polarizing, but that's okay. It's it's a conversation, right? Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. and that's great. And so this is beer here, it's from Kraftwerk. Like I said, tiny operation, husband and wife team on the South of New Zealand. It's called the Siege of Liege.
Speaker: I know it's based on a saison yeast. I'd have to check exactly the store have been brought to life, but they're pretty much focused on just making these sort of barrel-aged northern european sort of farmhouse um funkier styles um while essentially living as if they were from the era when those beers were first being made so i love that yeah that's great um so aside from what sort thrown at you here i mean do you do you have sort of all-time dream pairings that either you've tasted somewhere else or that you've created whether it's you know within the world of wine and or within the the world of beer that, you know, you you have a sort of that eureka moment where you were like, oh, my God, I wish I'd come up with that. Or but maybe it's one you did come up with. No, I'm not that kind guy. The chocolate cigar, you know, no. No, I think ah my favorite pairing, and actually, yeah I think Braun's favorite pairing, yeah it's also, they they happen in places kind of unexpectedly. Mine was in a a very fancy restaurant in New York State, Stone Barns.
Speaker: And we're kind of halfway through a 20-something course degustation. Do they give you about eight hours to have that? so good Yeah, there we had six something hours. and like it's a i wasn't there It was a long, long lunch. And it's somewhere kind of halfway they went like, oh, you want to go see the garden? and I'm like, yeah, sure. kind of Finally get off this table. and kind i need i need I need a little wonder. And you get into the garden and you walk around. And I was there with with yeah a lot lovely group of friends. And yeah we get to this this kind of hot dog stand.
Speaker: very new york-esque kind of like set up nicely and there's a guy there serving beetroot hot dogs and you're like cool part of the menu he goes yeah have a beetroot hot dog you know we made it from the beetroot that grow here and the pigs that we have on the land and it's all very on the farm and he pulled out this uh uh bottle of abby of the good dog which I think is Jura, it's a sour beer. It is delicious. And you you're standing there having a beetroot hot dog and this glass of just cracking sour beer. You're like, yeah, this is this is, I did not think we walked out into the garden to do this. but this is good. was And was the pairing magic or was it the whole, the surprise element or just, and the setting? Was it, because I think often you talk to people about their favourite beers and often it'll be tied to location or experience. You know, some people say, oh, just that cold lager I had on this, you know, first night of my honeymoon, whatever you know what it might be, you know, was it partly that as well, the sort of the whole thing or was it was it literally the, you know, the sensation that was happening? Part was, you know, the company I was with were definitely wine drinkers.
Speaker: The entire meal had been wine or was wine, is wine up until that stage. And then for them to have this beer and go, like, Rob looks very happy.
Speaker: oh, this is very good. yeah like you know and and and Not just any beer, but like a really, you know, out there beer as well. was going to say like ah it's it's a cult. Yeah. cold As far as cult beers go. No, and just, yeah, the the what the beer brought to the dog, and to the pituit dog, was,
Speaker: It was magic. It worked. The sourness worked. It's similar to similar. Actually, it's not similar to this, but it's got that same kind of lovely fruit, not too long, not too dry, not too acidic.
Speaker: yeah The beetroot dog was delicious, too. Mm-hmm. And I think it was the, you we're in a top 100 listed restaurant and I'm having a hot dog and a beer in the garden. It's like my little half timer, you know, as my little wedge in in in some very serious dining. I think that was, you that was just the highlight as far as beer pairings go.
Speaker: And i feel I think yours, you know, the the moment the the pinot glasses went down was like, yeah, that's when magic started. had um got, I don't even know how long ago this would have been now, a long time, um at Attica, actually. yeah um And, you know, three hats and...
Speaker: We, yeah, remember the peanut glasses going down and and Banjo Harris Plain, this was some then. And the dish was this roasted, as the menu, it was roasted kumara, so sweet potato. Ben being, Ben Churi obviously the owner, being New Zealand, that's what they would call it. But it was, so this roasted sweet potato, pine garner cream, egg yolk, broccoli buds and almonds.
Speaker: Or heisernuts was a nut. And he served it from a magnum of shimmy blue. And it was just like, it blew my mind. Yeah, it was just, it was so good. It just did everything. You know, the richness of the cream and the yolk and the sweetness, obviously, of the sweet potato. Like just, yeah, against that shimmy was like amazing. And it would have been quite sort of out there and daring for him to put a beer like that sort of unannounced as part of the degustation as well, you know, with a restaurant that, know, was at the peak of its, I guess, it's sort of, know, fame at the time. People are going paying, you know, handing over a fair few dollars for this experience and then to have a beer presented that way would have been really quite radical, I guess, as well. Yeah, you would see the eyes light up as the Pinot glasses went down, like, oh, great, it's Pinot time, you know. And then be like, what? So he, I mean, he, you know,
Speaker: as you had to, you he had a backup for those that wouldn't yeah wouldn't go there. I'm always like, oh, that'd be so sad, right? I think, you know, that's also always where I think if I've ever had that sort of experience, it's like a little bit on the side. Just try it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like just, I get it. What's the line? You know, you don't regret the things you've done. You regret the things you haven't done, you know, so just give it a go. Yeah. I just, I really, yeah, I really admired that, like,
Speaker: thought thinking outside the box, wine was just not going to work with that dish, you know? And and I mean, Banjo, he's a friend. So he's um he's a beer drinker as well. Like he enjoys beer. And just I think having that sort of really broad knowledge in drinks in general, like is that where you get a pairing like that? Someone that's, you know, inquisitive and curious and thinks outside the box. And then you get this pairing that's like, wow. Like,
Speaker: Yeah, it really blew me away. it was really special. Yeah, that's awesome. And yeah and you mentioned at the time in in New York and you were saying about, you know, racking up your air miles earlier. um In terms of your travels, you know, in the in the work I guess you will be hunting down beer off on your travels. Have there been any sort of amazing experiences, breweries or venues or bars so you've you've spent time in and on those travels? us Whenever we go to Holland to see the the family, there always has to be a...
Speaker: My mother will get upset for me saying this, but as there's always got to be a visit to my spiritual homeland to go to Brussels to go to Canteon. And it's kind of hard, right, because it's so cultish with with the the following there. But like they're just so good. yes Those beers just blow me away. like And again, those wine collaborations with the winemakers that they have. And I think every time we've been there and sat and drank... um there'll be winemaker that's in there, you know, that's talking to the owner and they're, you know, they're talking about what they're doing. I just think I love seeing what they do. think and And the fact that it is so um undemonstrative, you know, it really is. it's You know, it's on that... suburban street yeah with dog poo everywhere um and you know the the place you sit and have a drink is know it's fairly but simple and basic when was yeah when i was there um john's parents were sat there having lunch you know in a corner with some other family members and you know whilst the you know american beer nerds they're drinking his way through the latest vans ...but it's so...yeah, it's just...it's like...it's a family business, yeah you know? the old guy behind the bar, you know, with his ponytail. Oh my God, I love so Was it Berto or Alberto? I think it was Berto maybe. just...every time I'd be there, we'd have a bit of a chat. I'd get him to smile and it's nice. And actually it's interesting even just to...and you're talking to him about what's happening in Brussels, right? So... But, yeah, I just think what those guys do is always love to go and see what's happening. I find it really exciting. But was it the last time we went? I mean, December doesn't count.
Speaker: We were there for like a week. um We went to Chimay for my birthday. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, this guy. yeah but you know As far as significant birthdays go, it's yeah something you should do. But I think the time before, like, we you had you would really wanted to go to, what's the name of the restaurant?
Speaker: Here's one. Oh, the Gebronde Winning. Yeah. So the Gebronde Winning has been the world's best beer restaurant for for a couple of years in a row. And it's it's out of the way. It's in pretty much a small little town in the middle of nowhere.
Speaker: This guy's beer list is insane. It's in Belgium, right? Yeah. yeah Just. Just, yeah. um And kind of like he has to to put it in, you know, think about a normal drinks list.
Speaker: this This guy has two glasses of wine, a white or a red, and the rest this beer yeah there is There is nothing else there. No compromise to yeah to other tastes. It's like you're here for this. yeah be And if you don't want it, this is your choice. yeah Like it or lump it. Yeah, he's ah he's an Orval ambassador. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And he has Orvales from six weeks old to 26 years old in vintage. Where you go like, oh wow. And so I went, well, we went there, we had dinner, and I went like, cool, I want to, like, let's let's try an aged Orval, right?
Speaker: i And I went like, cool, can I have, you know, the oldest Orval? And the big guy there went like, I wouldn't. Like, what do you mean? He goes like, have the 14-year-old that drinks better. i like cool I'll have a six-week-old a 14-year-old. And these guys lean into beer. Like it's, it's it's you know, the the beer tasting menu because there was two of us and we went like, yeah, cool, we want all the treats.
Speaker: so they they changed So we had different beer tastings. as So we' we're sharing. and it was ah It was a great, great night. Food was great. Beer was great. Come on. He actually took us down to see the cellar.
Speaker: That was amazing. And it kind of started, I think he said his accountant had said to him, well, you know, you kind of excess money, you need to do something with it. So he started to invest in his passion, which was beer, and started building that cellar. And now he's but now he's probably got, you know, too much money to invest in. Too much beer, too much money. Yeah. It's one one of those cellars he's not going to drink in his lifetime. Yeah.
Speaker: And it just, I think, owner-operated, but, like, that was really exciting. Just that absolute single-minded focus of this is what I do. And the food was creative. It wasn't wild, but it was but it was created with beer in mind, which was, like, that was pretty really exciting. Like, yeah, that was pretty epic.
Speaker: And I think you can have, like, incredible incredible beer experiences in many parts of the world. But I don't think you could pick a country where it's almost impossible not to have incredible beer experiences you know like like Belgium. yeah You know, it's just there's just so many amazing, you know, the cultural sides with the historical sides with the different um characters in in different parts of the country, the the way it is elevated, you know, in a way that beer isn't in most other countries. and You know, some of the places I went to many years ago now, it feels like the beer history is just like seeping into and out of the walls in some of the places you go to. Like it's such an incredible incredible place.
Speaker: Yeah. And I think kind of, you know, beer travel, like we we did wine travel for quite a few years where we would go to Holland see my parents. Pick a wine region, go deep dive, explore, do visits. And with with beer travel, it's the breweries themselves are are lovely, but often a little boring, like it's a brewery. yeah It's very clean, very nice, have a tasting, and then you're out. ah But the beer bars. So you ask the brewer, where does he drink? And they send you to these these little underground dives. I remember walking into one guy like,
Speaker: God, really? We're going to spend an hour here? We spent the entire night there. Yeah, yeah Because when we got the beer list, it was like, Oh, my God. And I can imagine the person i was serving you as well went, okay, they're in. Yeah, they settled. Let's look after them. Yeah, they're in, they're settled. yeah And it's it's I think it's the, you know, the because the with beer, it's this the wine, wine is, you know, still has that hint of elitism.
Speaker: Beer is for the common folk. So a lot of these beer bars are just, know, bars. They're not special. they don't They don't look it. They don't smell it. But if you like drinking beer, that's probably where where you're going to find the the fucking sensational beers. Yeah, it's funny as I think, sit and think. Yeah, it's so true. said but Belgium, there's so many, I don't know, we've had amazing experiences like going to Durunk and like, you know, different times of year we've been there when they've just had their annual hop delivery and like you're in there having a look at everything and it's like super exciting. And they're really, those sort of situations have been really generous and kind and share with you.
Speaker: um Yeah. There's no secrets in Britain. It's also a big part of their tourism. Like when we went to St. Bernadette's, you know, that's a huge operation now what those guys are doing. But um yeah, it's always been a part of travels of like,
Speaker: you know, beers we've tried or want to try or go and, you know, it's the same as wine. It's also seeing where it all happens. It's sometimes nice to go to San Bernardes and see whether it is a pretty major, you know, and and modern operation for the most part. But you know that their beers are still phenomenal and have such, you know, incredible depth and and quality to them. um Just think we did say beforehand we could talk for hours. I'm aware that we probably should wrap this up at some point and maybe even bring it back to Australia. um But was thinking you'd have many years, you know travel all over the world experience, you know, experiencing many different but parts of hospitality, dining, large and small. um
Speaker: What's your take on, you know, how how things are now? And I guess especially for you know, indie beer within that sort of, within that um sphere within Australia, you know, is I know when we'd had been doing the Good Beer Week events, it was very much, you know pushing upwards and upwards and upwards and obviously COVID and then what's been happening since, it's a very different space now. What's your sort of take on where it is and, you know, what what do you think that sort of indie beer, whether it's brewers or reps or venues could be doing sort of to get the momentum going again?
Speaker: Tricky. No, like genuinely really tricky. I think i think beer brewing is seeing challenges. it's it's It's in the news every other week where there's a bankruptcy or you know filing for, you know there's stuff happening, which is is is not good for confidence and especially confidence in buyer, me, or you know someone who who yeah wants to do stuff with beer.
Speaker: um yeah And I think a lot of breweries are working very hard. like They're all working very hard to make the bottom line. like this There's a lot more pressure on on the breweries. and And I think especially the in the the independent scene has to work a lot harder. um keep Keep up the good work. Keep making good beer. can i Don't stop.
Speaker: I think to get back to... how How do you get someone who, if you were to get someone come into the restaurant and you think, oh, this person should try this beer, like is there ah is there a theory to it? you know the The way you go about it as someone you know hosting people in your venue to sort of get them to try something different, or is it to sort of... so so for for for Rua, we we made the decision that we we we want to be pretty much just Victorian, indie,
Speaker: And then we have some benchmarks. And we we do the same with our wine list. so So there's a story to tell about whatever's on the menu. yeah And then from there, you kind of go, you know, ah like the the rule of the dead beer.
Speaker: You know, you need to have a dead beer. Whether that be, you know, your Carlton, your Bitter... your Coopers or, you know, your Peroni. It needs to be something that dad would order that and feel safe. Yeah. It's interesting you've used the word safe quite a few times. That's obviously important in getting people, make them feel safe and then take them somewhere else. Yeah, and then throw something like that at them. No, no, but if people feel safe, you can build that trust. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And I feel with where the industry is at, if you go back 15, 20 years, there was ah people trusted, yeah hey, exciting new beers on the market, craft is happening, indie is happening. But people felt safe. And so then you can grow, you can do wild things, right? Because the the threshold is is very low.
Speaker: currently people have to think a bit more about where they spend their money so they'll they'll double think about you know have i seen this beer before do i know this beer have i tried it before and then if they have there are they are going to be easier persuade to have that and then something else and it's it's the Yeah, I think everything moves in in peaks and troughs. yeah it's it's the It's like fashion. yeah A couple of years in New York, couple of years in Paris, and then it's Tokyo, and then we go back to New York because that's the hardest thing again. Yeah, I don't think i don't think the beer industry needs to...
Speaker: needs to change, just do, do the beers, you do, keep doing them really well. Like that will be proof, proof is in the pudding. yeah You eat the pudding a couple of times and yeah. I think there's some really exciting stuff happening on the independent scene. You know, ah ah we definitely try and support local and smaller yeah independents doing exciting things like throwing, like except we've talked about burughck Boat Rock a lot, the guys at Sailor's Grave. yeah Fantastic beers for pairing and things like that. Actually, Robert bought home some of the Malt Donkey beers. Like that's a really exciting place about where beer's going, talking about those you know, single origin and like for a wine drink or it's a nice hook in to give them a comparison. um I think as far as engaging guests that come in, i you know, we've said about cheese is really easy, right? Like we talk about, oh, you know, Briette, Savarin and champagne, you know, it's a perfect match. It's like, think about that. Why does that work? The effervescence, you know, yes, there's...
Speaker: more to it but it makes it a really nice gateway to be would you be open to me serving you a beer it's it's great with it again if you don't like it it doesn't matter but i think it's yeah making it accessible for people if once you're getting that bit of trust give this a try you know like yeah um but and i think it's interesting you do definitely see people wanting to support uh independence and they really want to connect to a story they really want that The connection to what someone's doing is really important now. So, yeah. story Story's all, I think. Right. So we just always try to keep it to that. And I think then, yeah, we generally... You can go on a really fun ride with people, you know. And and then before you know it, they're like emailing or they've bought it online and they're going to visit. And, you know, that's really that's really exciting. Yeah. Well, thank you for coming in and sharing at least part of your story with us. I do feel, you know, we could be sat here, you know, for tomorrow. keys in the electricity meter. Keep going. Thank you so much. and Really appreciate it. um you know Enjoy your time in Melbourne or we'll have an easy drive back home, which is whichever is coming next. um And, yeah, look forward to dining with you at the 10th Frohlichaboot.
Speaker: Next year. yeah It's out there now. I'm going to have to text Matt. They're like, so you brew beer, mate? Sounds good. All right, cheers, guys. Thank you. Thank you.
Speaker: The Crafty Pint Podcast is produced and edited by me, Matt Hoffman. For all partnership inquiries, please reach out to Craig Williams at craig at craftypint.com. To keep up to date with everything in Australian craft beer, head to www.craftypint.com.
