Transcript
Speaker: We had the opportunity to promote independent, educate the market on what makes us special. We chose to promote what made the beer special.
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Speaker: Hello and welcome to the Crafty Pine podcast. I'm Will. I'm James. Will, good to be back with you in the studio today. And I think proving that the Crafty Pine isn't just about evolution, but revolution. This may only be our second weekly news podcast, but we've actually got a special guest. We have a very special guest. I alluded that there'd be a great guest last week and we managed to lock him in. He's flown in from Dubai, especially. Mazen Hajar, welcome.
Speaker: Thank you for having me. It's good to be back. Yeah, Maz, I mean, tell us a little bit about what you're up to. You and might surprise some listeners that you have been living in Dubai for a little while. I have. I fell in love. And my wife now um said this long distance stuff isn't working out for me. so She'd be regretting that now. She's been regretting it ever since. But hey, she got the short end of the stick. I i got i got the good deal out it. So I've been there for...
Speaker: Almost a year and a half now, almost two years. Yeah. And and what's life like in Dubai? it's a very different kind of country to Australia. It is a very different place. I mean, you know, the typical stuff that you kind of get in social media isn't really reflective of of what it means to live there. It's definitely a very expensive place to live. So, yes, zero taxes, but very expensive. It's very interesting. it's an interest I have lived in Dubai between 2003 and 2005 previously and I've been going to the Emirates since the the early 90s when there wasn't much going on. So it's it's quite something to see the place now versus when I was there. How's the craft beer scene?
Speaker: Non-existent. Well, you know, you did it you did it for Lebanon. Perhaps now this this is your opportunity to bring craft beer to to Dubai. the The difficulty in Dubai is you can't distribute alcohol except through one of two legal distributors yeah and they have no interest in craft beer. yeah They have Brewdog.
Speaker: And the other day I was driving through and I saw um one of the warehouses with brewedog kegs sitting outside at 55 degree centigrade weather. So i was like, Everything tastes like a barley wine. Everything tastes like an oxidized barley wine. And I guess um you're back in Melbourne for a few days or a couple of weeks. um I guess you stepped down as CEO of Hawkers when you moved to Dubai, but you've been back in that role for about a year now. Yes. Not just CEO of Hawkers, but I guess social drinks group with yeah um White Bay. So I'm assuming that's why you've been back in Melbourne for a few days. Yes. I'm back to visit the team, visit um work at the back at my desk at the office. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Although they think they've kept it clear. like It's like when they retire a shirt from er from a sports team, it's like they they have to retire the desk. Was your Pepsi Max untouched? The funny part is I'm drinking way less Pepsi Max now. So so the team had bought a couple of cartons to ready the place up, but I haven't been consuming it. So it's become a communal Pepsi Max.
Speaker: um But yeah, it's it's very good to be back. It's very good to be with the team again. um It's longer over with you. And now I'll be making more regular visits. Yeah. And how have you managed that since since the sidelines come back in as CEO from afar? um How's that been compared to doing it, you know, like living in Australia?
Speaker: Over the years, um the way we've we've run Hawkers, or at least the way I've run Hawkers, is I've always brought on team members who are much better at what they do than I am.
Speaker: um So the place kind of runs better without me there almost. um But my my job has evolved into more of a brand gatekeeper and kind of strategizing towards the the future and just being as as as ah as a bouncing ideas board whenever the guys need something. um It's amazing when you empower people and you have the right people in place and they have a clear direction how much you can get done without having to do it yourself.
Speaker: And in terms of how Hawkers and White Bay are traveling, um you know we had a chat last week, you know it's not necessarily the the glory days of craft beer anymore, but within the the four walls of of your business, how are things going?
Speaker: Look, um I think it would be, um very difficult for anyone to say they're thriving and growing and it's been one of the i've been in craft beer for 20 25 years now um the last 13 14 of them in australia and this has been one of the most difficult years we've we've ever seen it's a combination of things um the the cost of living crisis stupidity of the government um the complete um
Speaker: uselessness of the ACCC when it comes to top contracts and and retail outlet monopolies. um On top of it, I think we, the craft brewers, if you want to call us that, had scored our own goal in ourself, um an own goal.
Speaker: We had the opportunity to promote independent, educate the market on what makes us special. we chose to promote what made the beer special.
Speaker: And as soon as the beer became big enough to be interesting for the big guys, they just jumped on board and we hadn't branded the importance of independence, local community. We just focused on what the beer was, craft beer. And now the big guys have all the fake craft, fake, um I say fake, fake independent brands.
Speaker: um So we missed an opportunity there. But I think the IBA, after having conversation with them today, seemed to be back on the right track. Remember the culture in Australia is don't rock the boat. It's all fine. Should be right.
Speaker: um For the first time, I get a sense that there's there's a fire in their belly and they want to change things. Yeah, there's definitely seems to be some progress on that front. It's interesting interesting you mentioned the the big guys buying up the bigger independent brands as well. i had a long conversation with a Sydney Morning Herald journalist other day who a piece on um price fluctuations for beer across the country, mainly focused on the big brands. And she's not a drinker, so I sort of took her through almost the history of beer and craft beer and whatever's been going on in Australia. And, you know, sort pointing out to that these brands here, you know, they've been snapped up because they were the most successful brands. And so we've kind of changed...
Speaker: The craft brewers, if youre if you want to use that phrase, said, you know, they have sort of changed drinking taste to an extent of ah of a large amount of the population. But now those key brands are still within the same hands as the people who were happily pushing pale lager for 100 years. Yeah. and And the irony of it is a lot of these brands are have no connection to to their to their roots at all. Like none of the original guys.
Speaker: not none, but most of the original guys aren't there anymore. They're no longer produced um in the same breweries by the same recipes using the same ingredients. They've been incrementally changed to become more cost efficient. You said the most successful brands. I think what happened in the early days was the big guys snapped um probably one or two brands from each state, not necessarily the most successful, but one of the top five that was making a lot of noise and just put on their distribution, um put it into their network. And see what sticks. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I remember the Pirate Life got snapped up by CUB.
Speaker: Within a month, Pirate Life got 500 taps overnight and they couldn't keep up with the supply. They gave them a little while to to to brew up stock and then they were on 500 taps.
Speaker: That's the power of monopoly. uh i remember having a nasty conversation with the ex-ceo of virgin australia about why aren't you opening it up for none of the but not the big guys um and look singapore airlines is carrying ben spoke on the singapore to canberra route and he said no one wants to drink that stuff within a month of pilot life being snapped up it was on the plane and now is now belter is on the plane The MCG is locked up for I can't remember. was 2027. I'm talking.
Speaker: twelve fourteen years ago And all of sudden, you get those brands on. So the the difficulty that the independent brewers have is market access. That continues to be the biggest challenge and the excise laws. Compounded with a cost of living crisis for the consumer.
Speaker: And and we' we're totally screwed up. And I guess, you know, those key issues you talk about that you've been very outspoken about them. I guess, throughout your whole time in Australia. yeah But I guess they just become more acute with with with the cost of living crisis, with the the squished profits margins, all that kind of stuff. It just makes it makes makes those things feel more severe and more extreme than they were, which maybe is a good thing because it will help force action because like, oh, hang on, we really need to change dealing these things now. we We can't operate around them. So maybe it does sort of force, you know, it's like we have to do something about it. There has to be more noise. There has to be more pressure. The the problem with,
Speaker: where we are now is now it's become crunch time, right? Now everyone feels motivated to act. The problem this is the long arc of change. yeah um Had we started a lot earlier, um we we would be in much better position as an industry. But it is what it is.
Speaker: You know, a lot of people thought I was um drumming, the beating the drum unnecessarily. unnecessarily It's just because i it was obvious to me, actually. And in terms of where you are now, but putting your sort of Hawkers and White Bay hat have back on, what are you doing within the business to try and whether whether it's on that broader scale or just within Hawkers and White Bay, what are you doing to to try and you know find new markets or or maintain existing markets or tell that story about the importance of supporting your businesses and supporting independent? Well, I mean, the the worst thing is we also had an opportunity as Australian brewers to kind of open up the Asian market. But now there's a lot of craft breweries opening up.
Speaker: in Asia as well. So ah the cost of transport, thanks to our friend in the White House, has has blown through the roof. Long-term friend of yours. Long-term friend of mine. I'm a big fan.
Speaker: I'll make everything great. um so So those opportunities to find new markets for our products are are vastly diminished. I think where we are currently as as social drinks, Hawkers, Rover, White Bay, is we are focusing on who we are.
Speaker: um We went through an exercise to refocus exactly what we stand for. Because it's always good to revisit why we started what we started. um and And to see if it's still relevant.
Speaker: um Luckily, um with we brought on the whole team anonymously um and we found that we were still relevant. So we've gone back to being myopic.
Speaker: and focusing on what we do trying to do it better more efficiently um because we've we've gone back to our internal definitions of why we did what we did what we love what makes us passionate we're now less prone to chasing the market chasing new markets we're very much focused on what we do and how do we um continue to support the great people who work there.
Speaker: right it's it's It's a very tough time and we've had a team that's through hell ah come through the other side. So how do we continue to support these guys to do what they do best and to keep them motivated, passionate and and loving what they do?
Speaker: It's not an easy time to motivate people. I can tell you that much. Yeah, I know some members of your team and one of the things I always really enjoy is talking to them and their eyes lighting up in terms of process and things like that and how quickly they're like, oh, you wouldn't believe the efficiency we're now getting on West Coast IPA. Like it's just the most exciting thing yeah to them the world. Because well if you remember in our early conversations,
Speaker: um my problem with where the market was, all these one-trick things turn around, make another one, take turn around, make another one.
Speaker: For me, beer is an evolutionary route, right? And you make a great beer, you refine it, you refine it, you refine it, you refine it, you refine it until you hit near perfection and then you realize the ingredients have changed or the new season of ingredients and you're back on that train, right?
Speaker: So it's been a continuous improvement process for us. It's what we're passionate about and it shows in the results. We won four trophies at the AIBAs in the last four years. So four championship trophies is nothing to cough at.
Speaker: The number of consistency awards, the number of gold medals, we quietly win these things. It is a testament to how dedicated the team are. on just consistently producing amazing beer.
Speaker: It might not be the most fashionable thing at the time, but what we are passionate about, we're obsessive about. And before we cut to a break and come back to talk about what's happening in the weekly news. um Anything you wish to know about with White Bay and Hawkers? Oh, absolutely. Okay. i It's very funny since the merger, I'm super excited to see where White Bay is going. Well, I was super excited that the ah the original lager is back as Hellas now and tasting just as delicious as ever. Tasting Schmick. Yeah. And, um you know, it it I think White Bay Hellas one of the best Hellas I've had. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: It sounds fancy. The reality is most of the lagers that we drink are based on some sort of Hellas. If you go to Europe now, Hellas is becoming such a dominant. You can't walk into a pub in London without walking in and finding some sort of Hellas, mostly Camden Town Hellas on tap. White Bay's Hellas is back.
Speaker: It's just... you can just have it as a lager or if you wanted something a bit more authentic, it's a hell of a lager. It both categories. It's an inhalable beer, but with, you know, enough there if you're looking for it. It's a hell of a lager. So that's very exciting. We're refining the process of all our lagers. So we're kind of working to figure them out.
Speaker: The Pilsner is coming along very nicely. um We've released um a non-alk in Hawkers. We've refined our limited program.
Speaker: So um come the new year, there'll be ah much more focused, um much more thought out limited program, both in Hawkers and in White Bay.
Speaker: The team was adamant that they want to continue battle aging beers. I was so happy that that happened. You'll come back next December and do another another event with Another event, exactly. um so so um and And there's going to be a few nicer IPAs coming out, which is really our 40 at Hawkers, IPAs and Stouts. We do a lot of other beers. um My personal passion, I'm very happy that the team is still focused on my personal yeah passion.
Speaker: Oh, the beers that come our way, they're always cracking. you know So it has been maintained despite your absence in in Dubai. But yeah, we'll take a short break now and come and chat about the weekly news and and get your take on what's been going on.
Speaker: Cheers. Cheers. Hey Legends, Stomping Ground Brewing Co. is turning 10 and turning it on with a massive laneway-style street party on Saturday 14th of November. And you're invited.
Speaker: From their Collingwood home, they're taking over Islington Street with an awesome music line-up presented by Triple R. Live music, DJs, street mural painting, food trucks, oysters, free tattoos, circus, drag queens, street-side tinny bars, gin cocktails and more.
Speaker: Stompo Street Fest is going to be an epic day out. celebrating 10 years of great beer, good people and the incredible community they're part of. Tickets are just $39 or free for under 12s and selling fast. Don't miss Stompo Street Fest on Saturday 14th of November.
Speaker: Check it all out at stompingground.beer.
Speaker: Welcome back. And James, we kicked off this week with a travel piece from Bryony Liebich in South Australia. That's right. we yeah yeah It's something that Bryony had been working on for quite some time. She'd been for a tour around McLaren Vale and the wider Fleurieu Peninsula region. I have to say, when I first did the social post for this, I said McLaren Vale and the neighbouring Fleurieu. And I was like,
Speaker: Let's just check that. It's like McCarranville is actually on the Fleurieu Peninsula. So thankfully I realized within this, within about 60 seconds of posting it and didn't look complete idiot because I often mispronounce names in WA or or whatever whatever. So it's like, I've been here 18 and a half years now. you You'd think I'd be getting on top of geography. But yeah, there's 11 breweries or certainly venues pouring their own beer and under their own brand in the region now. ah So she ah did a whip round all of those, um all reasonably close to Adelaide as well. So, you know, a good long weekend away.
Speaker: Yeah, there's a reason it's sort of a cellar door capital and it's become a brewery capital. there Apparently 80 winery cellar doors there as well. That's why that's, yeah, I mean. Even even you and Courtney would struggle to do that in a week. Yeah, well, the Barossa is a bit further away and I feel like it's, yeah, that's why there's so many in McLaren Vale. Yeah. Yeah, and and so tied to that, we also got a fresh listing for Wild Hop Brewing in Margaret River Region from Jono. if you haven't been to Wild Hop, have you been to Wild Hop in the Margaret River Region?
Speaker: haven't yet, but i've i've I've got a point to make with your attempt at getting all the names right. You pointed to Western Australia and when you were naming the regions just now. You still can't get them right. now Well, there you go. I'll get there eventually. you know Give me another 18 years. and then i'll you know I'm even a citizen now as well. You'd think that would have made a difference. and i wild up that there'ss so many There's maybe 20-ish breweries and brewpubs in that sort of wider southwest region, but Wild Hop...
Speaker: They don't sell send their beer anywhere else. They don't package their beer. they never have done. But they just have this amazing venue, amazing space, good beers, just a good vibe or whatever. So Jono's updated that, um which we'll ah share in the show notes. But um as I was thinking, know especially now you're in Dubai, you know one of the main central travel hubs for the for the world. Any like um fun beer travel experiences you've had recently? a couple of months ago, i went to Boston and drove up through Maine to Vermont.
Speaker: um So obviously there was Maine brewing, Hill Farmstead, Alchemist on ah on the itinerary. um And I was in Bavaria the month before that. um So again, a lot of German... bit of whiplash there. A lot of German Hellases were consumed. um Yeah, yeah. the The beauty of being in Dubai, I guess, is it's a short hop from most places in the world and it's really well connected.
Speaker: There's a lot of beer travel I could do, but the I don't have the time to do all that. Any standout beers on those trips? Everyone always talks in you know these sort of glorified tones about Hill Farmstead in particular, you know the the long trek you have to make to get out there. And also, like on top of that, you've traveled to the US a lot. Are you still finding there you know are they ahead are they making similar beer like like where's that sort of feel when i first moved to australia james and i had this conversation i felt australian beer was so far behind i think we have at least we're at least on par with the us right now yeah absolutely at least on par um
Speaker: In fact, on par with anyone else in the world. No one's got anything on the beer coming ah coming out of this country. And there's a lot of great breweries. A lot of breweries people wouldn't have heard of unless they traveled to them because they very much serve their local community and maybe one or two other pubs and they only pour their beers there. um It's great to see after whatever, 14 years, 12 years in the business here.
Speaker: So that's refreshing. The standout beers for me this during this trip, I'm going to disappoint a lot of people where the Hill Farmstead Pilsner and the Hill Farmstead Dark Czech Lager.
Speaker: I mean, i've I've had these before and I sat with with Sean multiple times to discuss how pedantic he is about it. He's gone all over the Czech Republic to learn all the techniques and do things right. And it's, it's again, i went there and I bought a whole, you know, people woke up to Hill Farmstead and buy a whole bunch of beers.
Speaker: that was his blogs That was predominantly what I bought, those two those two beers. yeah Leave the hazies for someone else. And um we also have a shout-out a number of breweries at the moment. there's There's a whole raft of them turning 10. So Stomping Ground have a major birthday in November. They're throwing a street party and we've got some tickets to give away, don't we, James? We do. We'll include link to the Karate Cabal giveaway for that one. and But also Watts River in the area Yarra Valley are turning 10, Tall Boy and Moose. Same weekend. So October 16 and 17, what's Riviera Brewery that really stick with my mind in, well, before they open. So that they actually contract brewed or gypsy brewed, nomadic brewed for a little while before opening. i remember going to a farmer's market in the Yarra Valley in 2015 and it was at a time when Australian IPAs could...
Speaker: It could often still be quite chewy. And and i I was still, yeah I was newer to beer as well. And I was trying to find out what I was into. And when I found all of a sudden these much yellower, leaner IPAs, I was like, these are amazing. I remember, you know, having a sample out there. all So it was four couples who started at the Hamilton. Two couples. Sorry, two couples. yeah Four people. Yeah. You're a writer, not a mathematician. No, I still can't quite work that one out. And they poured me a sample of the beer and and and um Ben, I remember him being at the time like, we we're really not fans of crystal malt or anything too chewy. And I like trying this super lean IPA and just being like, oh, wow, this is this is mind blowing. I got to get ah six pack of bottles of this. Little stubbies. Yeah.
Speaker: Now in cans. But I think actually this year there's been so many people turning 10 like we've if we wanted to do all there are 10 lessons from 10 years series could have been almost weekly. Um, but yeah, I mean, it has been noticeable, I guess, so that 2015, 16 must've been, you know, the real peak opening era, but cause you guys turned 10 couple of years ago, 14, yeah, 2014. Can I, can I just give a shout out to Dan, a tall boy?
Speaker: I'm so happy he's turning 10. Um, Dan, um, than is ah is ah is a form of ro former hoer good friend. good friend. And it's it's I love seeing former Hawkers guys going out and doing their own thing and succeeding at it. So shout out to Dan. Hi, Dan.
Speaker: yeah um Yeah, I mean, that's a you know he started with Steve as well, the mousse to his tour boy. Originally it was, yeah, what's it tour boy? Well, they were called We Make Beer originally when they did tiny little single keg things that you find on a handful of bars, often with tea and all manner of strange ingredients in And if you look look at the um the logo on the wall behind their bar at the brew-up, it still says, tour boy and mousse make beer as reference to their original brand. um But, yeah, mean, I guess it shows longevity for a number of businesses. Making it to 10, especially with the challenges of COVID and then the last three or four years since then is, I guess, no mean feat. Particularly, I mean, they chose such a good part of Preston, of Melbourne, that corner of Preston as well. It's just like they've changed with the community. They are like so many people's locals. Yeah. There would have people met and have been married and have children in that brewery in that time. It's pretty incredible. Yeah, yeah. I guess aside from that, the reservoir scene, the Reza scene, there's a little bit of a brewery scene developing up there now. Absolutely. We just did the collab with Le Seren, which is last week and the beer's out this week.
Speaker: um So absolutely, that scene is developing. There's a few more popping up. I need to get myself more back into the scene. So I'm hoping now that I'll be doing more quarterly visits. Absolutely. The beautiful thing about a Reservoir is it it's not just the beer scene that's developing. It's also the food scene.
Speaker: I mean, one of the best ice cream places I've had is right next door to the brewery. um since coming back a year later, there's all these really cool places that have popped up.
Speaker: It's amazing how happens. I guess the thing with Brookvale, you know, the likes of Dad and Dave's and Four Pines and Nomad were there a long time ago. then now there's a whole bunch of breweries. But then there has been all these other, you know, not just food and drink, but also, you know, Budgie Smuggler Start there or some swimwear brand. Like all these sort of small creative operations do seem to, oh, here's a place... it's maybe affordable to go into and there's other things around and we can sort help feed each other. We know there'll be degree of foot traffic. People come, like people see us, like we're a small manufacturer. This becomes the area you have to be in, not just because the warehouse space is there.
Speaker: Yeah. yeah yeah and Yeah. And you guys are pumping out the events there as well fairly regularly. You've got stuff just just with your little little bar sort attached the cellar door. 100% we're running regular events. And I remember when...
Speaker: ah We had this conversation as well before. When I first picked Reservoir to be the home of Hawkers, people thought I was on drugs. Who would go to Reservoir? It's the weirdest place. It makes no sense. And now it's become a very cool happening place. Yeah. It's since you left. Since I left, it's become even better. um But the great thing is over the years, we we we we feel like we've connected with a lot of the locals. A lot of the locals come by pick up their beer on Saturday and Sunday or through the cellar door and they all show up to the events. It's really cool. It's, I feel the reservoir now. That's great. Well, I guess looking ahead to next week's show, again, once again, we're doing something different. We don't seem to be able to sit still and just get into a steady routine. we doing something different next week, Will? So the beer championships, the inaugural beer championships taking place next week. So we're going to record at the end of that, which means next week's podcast episode, importantly, will be out later in the day on Thursday. Yes. We don't know how much later. It depends on how late we get it in and all those kind things. But we'll post on social media, of course, be in the Friday newsletter. So keep your eye on your podcast feed. It'll be out at some point on Friday. Yes, the plan is as soon as the beer championships...
Speaker: is it called Champions Night I believe, once the awards are finished, we will scoot off into a little mobile podcast studio to record what the weekly news there, hopefully grab maybe Justin or Jay have been running it and maybe one of the winners um and record it as we've done with Abers the last couple of nights. So it will be hot off the press with the with the winners and by the time it goes live we will actually probably be on a farm in the Riverina.
Speaker: For the start of Grain Stalker there's still some spaces left on the bus for, i think certainly for Melbourne, Still tickets going. um If you want to come and hang out with me and Will and Luke from the Full Measure and a whole bunch of other lovely people from the Beer and Spirits and baking industries and farming industries, then jump on GrainStock.com.au and get yourself up there. Reach out for the team. There's definitely still still some space and um opportunity to stay up there as well. They'll help you out. So thanks for joining us. If you have any feedback on this new format, you want to rip into Mazin, just shoot us an email, podcast at craftypint.com. You can like, subscribe, share the podcast however you get it, and we'll see you next week. Cheers.
Speaker: Cheers.
Speaker: The Crafty Pint Podcast is produced and edited by me, Matt Hoffman. For all partnership inquiries, please reach out to Craig Williams at craig at craftypint.com. To keep up to date with everything in Australian craft beer, head to www.craftypint.com.
