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10 Years Forward - Wales' Future Generations Act
24 Plays2 months ago
Our penultimate episode of the season is here!
This week we're going back to we're it all started : Wales. The first country to legislate on the basis of the SDGs and the only country in the world, still, to have a statutory Commissioner for the wellbeing of future generations.
Jacob Ellis, Director of External Relations and Culture at the Office of the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales, joins us for an inspiring conversation about the historic Wellbeing of Future Generations Act (Wales) and its 10th anniversary. We also discuss what it means to be a futurist, and why culture is not a 'nice to have' but a non-negotiable in the construction of more long-term and sustainable institutions, systems and policies.
Want to stay up to date with the For Our Future campaign and opportunities to engage? Follow us on our socials @forourfuturecampaign and @foundationsfortomorrow.
Ready to take some action? Sign our petition for a federal Wellbeing of Future Generations Act in Australia here!
What's In It For You is a Foundations For Tomorrow podcast, produced as part of the 2025 For Our Future campaign. It is hosted by Clare Beaton-Wells and Anna Bezzu.
Links and resources mentioned:
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Transcript
Acknowledgement and Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
This podcast is partly recorded on the traditional lands of the Camaragal people in New South Wales, Australia. As co-hosts, we pay our respects to Indigenous Elders past and present and acknowledge that intergenerational leadership and long-term practices of stewardship have been cornerstones of Indigenous cultures for thousands of years. Music
00:00:27
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the podcast where we two young passionate Aussie women break down what young people say in policy matters and what's really in it for them when it comes to future generations policy in Australia and building a more resilient, sustainable and equitable model of governance that serves all generations to come.
00:00:46
Speaker
I'm Claire Beaton-Wells, a former political staffer, future generations champion and policy innovator. I'm passionate about inspiring young people to lead the charge when it comes to addressing some of our most complex challenges.
00:00:58
Speaker
And I'm Anna Bezu, a corporate galley bridging business and impact, helping young people connect everyday choices to long term change in society.
Exploring Legislative Protection for Future Generations
00:01:07
Speaker
Coming up on the show today, this is our penultimate episode of the season.
00:01:11
Speaker
So we're sticking with the overseas theme and taking you this time from New York all the way across to Wales, where Legislative Protection for Future Generations was first born. Back in 2015, Wales became the first nation in the world to legislate for the wellbeing of future generations, passing its Pioneering Wellbeing of Future Generations Act.
00:01:30
Speaker
This episode, we're speaking with one of its key architects and implementers, someone who's been at the fore of building a global movement that's all about rethinking the way we lead and govern for future generations.
00:01:42
Speaker
We'll dive into how Wales has been a key source of inspiration for the Australian future generations movement and what lessons can be taken from the Wales context and applied to our own. But as always, before diving into the policy and politicking, next up is our regular tunnel vision check, examining the latest examples of short-termism.
00:02:00
Speaker
not just in the political sphere, but the societal one too. What's yours for today, Claire? Okay, so before we dive in, we wanted to give a little disclaimer that we actually recorded this next segment prior to the Labour government's announcement that it will recognise a Palestinian state in September this year at the UN General Assembly, an announcement that was made just one week after the momentous March for Humanity across Sydney's Harbour Bridge.
00:02:27
Speaker
So what you're about to hear next is an example of short-term tunnel vision, followed by our government actually deciding to take long-term action on an issue that's been flooding the media headlines recently. I'm talking here about Australia's position on recognising a Palestinian state.
00:02:44
Speaker
For context, it's been a long-term ambition of both Labour and the Liberals to support the realisation of a two-state solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict, though this has seemed to sit at quite a standstill, I would say, for a few years.
Australia's Stance on Palestinian Recognition
00:02:57
Speaker
In recent weeks, though, The conversation I must say about recognising Palestine as a state has come roaring back into the spotlight. Since Parliament returned few weeks ago, there's been pressure mounting from both within the Labour Party and the broader public, calling on the government to be more decisive in the steps that it takes in response to the humanitarian catastrophe we're seeing in Gaza at the moment.
00:03:19
Speaker
And that pressure over the weekend reached quite a tipping point. There were more than 100,000 people who marched across the Sydney Harbour Bridge in the rain to demand stronger action, including recognising Palestinian statehood.
00:03:33
Speaker
Protests also took place in Brisbane and Melbourne, but the imagery of hundreds of thousands of Sydneysiders crossing the iconic bridge in support of Gaza was enough to make even international headlines.
00:03:44
Speaker
For further context, our Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, doubled down on his government's support for a two-state solution, but he did acknowledge, in what has been considered quite a shift of position, it's now a question of when, not if.
00:03:59
Speaker
But what really caught my radar was his statement that he seems to be waiting for the right moment to take this step. And it was here that I began to think, could this be another example of political tunnel vision?
00:04:12
Speaker
He did say that such a step must be meaningful in that it has to contribute to peace and come with clear conditions, a reformed Palestinian authority, the exclusion of Hamas and guarantees around Israel's security.
00:04:25
Speaker
Right, I'm following, but for listeners who may be wondering, Claire, can you explain why this might be a tunnel vision moment? You're totally right, Anna. And to be fair, the decision to recognise a Palestinian state is enormously complex, not just diplomatically, but politically also.
00:04:42
Speaker
It has to involve navigating deeply held fears and legitimate concerns, particularly from Jewish communities, diplomatic partners, and many in the broader Australian
Political Risk and Long-term Goals
00:04:52
Speaker
public. So caution here isn't inherently tunnel vision.
00:04:57
Speaker
But waiting indefinitely for the right time, especially amid a spiraling humanitarian crisis, does start to look like short-term political risk management taking precedence over long-term leadership.
00:05:09
Speaker
And at some point, if the long-term goal is to realize two-state solution, well, at some point, we're going to have to start talking about how how to practically achieve that outcome. And that's what I want to spotlight today.
00:05:22
Speaker
Not necessarily bad faith from the government or our decision makers, but missed opportunity. And it's not just an ALP issue. Tunnel vision here spans both major parties.
00:05:32
Speaker
While Labour has at least kept the two-state solution framework on the table, the coalition has this past week seemed to be quite wavering in its support of Palestinian recognition, with some figures even going so far as to call the idea dangerous or inflammatory.
00:05:47
Speaker
Right, I understand. So what we're seeing here is a broader reluctance across the political spectrum to engage with the issue in a way that reflects the urgency on the ground. Totally. And just finally, to zoom out a little bit, because I know it's really easy with an issue like this to get bogged down in the details, I want to take a moment to highlight that in politics, waiting for the right moment can often feel like the safest path.
00:06:11
Speaker
But sometimes, especially in crisis, there is no perfect moment, simply a narrowing window to act meaningfully. And what comes to mind here is if you don't stand for anything, you'll fall for everything. And at some stage, silence might feel safe, but it can also be a kind of surrender.
00:06:28
Speaker
That's exactly it. And look, recognition is unlikely to resolve the conflict alone, and it certainly won't satisfy all stakeholders. But the longer this question is shelved, the more it begins to look like a symptom of short-term caution at the expense of long-term clarity.
Jacob Ellis and Future Generations Policy
00:06:45
Speaker
So with that said, i think it's time we dive into our interview for today. Yes, absolutely. So Claire, would you like to introduce our next guest? For sure. Today's guest is someone who believes the future doesn't just happen, it's shaped and reshaped through deliberate policy, culture and the power of people.
00:07:04
Speaker
Jacob Ellis is the Director of External Relations and Culture at the Office of the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales. He's also the co-lead and founder of the Impact Coalition for Future Generations, a global movement working to embed long-term thinking in governance structures and decision-making.
00:07:21
Speaker
From helping to implement landmark legislation in Wales to advising the UN and championing youth-led leadership through establishing the Future Generations Leadership Academy, Jacob's work is a masterclass in how to make future-focused change real, not just aspirational.
00:07:37
Speaker
In this episode, we talk about what it takes to embed intergenerational justice into governance, how Wales became a quiet leader in future generations policy, and why cultural well-being and the voices of young people are non-negotiables in building better futures.
00:07:51
Speaker
Welcome to the podcast. How are you feeling today, Jack? I'm feeling really good. you know what I've woken up with a bit of a i spring in my step. It is not very nice weather out there today. We've experienced quite the heat wave over the last couple of weeks, but I'm pleased to say that the Welsh weather has returned back to its rainy grey state.
00:08:14
Speaker
That's so wonderful. Well, it's it's good to hear that there's sunshine somewhere in Europe, because in Sweden, it's been a pretty average summer so far, I must say. But yeah, let's jump straight in. So Jacques, you've worked across journalism, climate justice, government advisory, and the multilateral system.
00:08:30
Speaker
I'd love to know from you, what first drew you into the world of policy and governance, particularly with the focus on future generations? Well, first of all, it is great to be on this podcast. I've been big fans of work the work that you're doing.
00:08:44
Speaker
um So the the interest in in politics, first of all, started from from a young age. And it seems ah that you blink in the UK, particularly in the last 15 years, and there was an election or a referendum every five minutes.
00:09:00
Speaker
And of course, I studied international politics and Welsh in Aberystwyth University. And then my time as Students' Union President ah solidified my belief in activism, albeit at a local level, um whether that was on student debt, Welsh language rights, accessibility, etc.
00:09:20
Speaker
But all those things, all all those experiences in Aberystwyth meant that I was really talking about people um and communities and injustices.
00:09:32
Speaker
And then I chose to go into journalism and I was a journalist at the BBC um for just under two years at a time when we were facing some difficult choices in in the world. Trump had just been elected, the UK's referendum on leaving the EU and many other things in in in between. and I found myself in a bit of a dilemma. You know, I'd been this president of the Students' Union doing something about the injustices that I had seen and then reporting on them at the BBC or reporting and being behind the camera, you if you like.
00:10:12
Speaker
And that didn't sit comfortably with me. So I decided that I needed to to leave the BBC. I needed to stand up. for the the things that i disagreed with.
00:10:23
Speaker
um And they stemmed from people again, you know, people's stories, people's voices. And that was the golden thread through so all the the early career stuff that I but i had done. And and then joining joining in the office of the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales meant that I not only could champion those voices, those, and do something about those challenges here in Wales, but also lift my head up and see um that actually what connected us in Wales was a connection that could also um seek to to address some of the challenges across the world as well. And that's a deep kind of value that now stays with me, that that sense of people, about service, public service, and about intergenerational dialogue, that I have some ideas, my grandparents had have ideas, my great-great-grandparent had an idea, and I'll come to that later.
00:11:17
Speaker
and And I hope that you know those ideas values hold strong regardless of what role you have or which part of the world you Well, thank you for sharing that origin story of of how you came to sort of this marriage of all of these really interesting pathways to almost bring the insights and the knowledge and what you're seeing and actually do something with all of that. And I think that's like the sort of the common thread in a lot of our guests is that they see the injustices, but rather than just sort of pointing to them and saying, look at all of this, it's like, cool, like, let's actually do something. And I think that takes a lot of courage. So I just want to share that it's moving and touching to see people doing the things that are otherwise very uncomfortable. But wanted to sort of go a little bit deeper into your work.
00:12:01
Speaker
This year in particular, 2020-25, marks a particularly special milestone in Wales. It's the 10-year anniversary of the Landmark Wellbeing of Future Generations Act. which was first legislated in 2015, making Wales the first ever country to in the world to enshrine legislative protections for the wellbeing of future generations.
00:12:20
Speaker
So before we dive into this historic legislation and how that all came about and the impact that it's had, i want to first begin with something you did to mark the occasion, ah TED talk.
00:12:32
Speaker
In it, you shared your belief that we're all futurists. We'd love to unpack this a little bit more. What did you mean by this and why is the F word, the title of your talk, that is, a term that everyone should be thinking and talking about?
00:12:46
Speaker
So the answer to this question has to start with the Welsh Women's Petition of 1924, at a time, of course, when women didn't have the full voting rights.
00:12:56
Speaker
400,000 Welsh women welsh women signed a petition calling on the world in the aftermath of the First World War to advance towards peace and to call on the US government at the time to join the then League of of Nations and so forth.
00:13:15
Speaker
no full voting rights, 400,000, you know, a population of around three three million. So it gives you a sense of of the scale of that petition. And petition mathmatician was handed to the US president in 1924. And that petition, if it was rolled out, would be seven miles in in in in length.
00:13:36
Speaker
It was then put into a chest in the Smithsonian Museum in Washington, where it was kept until last year, where it is, being digitized now back at home ah with the hope that current generations are able to identify amongst the names um a connection, possibly to somebody who might live in your in your home or more personally a family connection.
00:13:59
Speaker
ah So like many Welsh people, we've dived into the into the log to identify a connection or two. And I started quite disappointedly not at being able to identify a name until my grandmother over my shoulder as we were going through the names and trying to to identify a woman, stumbled across ah Frederick Arthur Fox, my great-great-grandfather, one of only a handful of men ah to have signed that petition.
00:14:28
Speaker
And it is a women's story, but it does elevate to me a few connections, that we have a feminist in the family, that's something to be inherently proud of, but also a futurist. many and Many ambitions, the vision that was of of the petition to create that warless world for future generations. Words that echoed then in the UN Charter a few decades later.
00:14:52
Speaker
And I'd found myself a hundred years later since the petition in the UN Summit of the Future, where the Pact for the Future was being negotiated. And that is ironic.
00:15:05
Speaker
Coincidental, special, most definitely. To think that my great-great-grandfather was part of a similar message 100 years later. So when i talk about the F word and that we're all futurists,
00:15:20
Speaker
We have to start with our ancestors, our ancestors who believed in a better future, who advanced many innovations to to where we are and evolved in their thinking to where we are to today. And I'm committed, once I find five minutes, to document Frederick Arthur Fox's story in that I'm then able to document my story and then in the hope that in a hundred years' time my descendants are able to continue the story.
00:15:48
Speaker
um we're all futurists because we all set alarms. We pay mortgages that stretch far into the future and we have beliefs that our children will have a better future. The challenge is how do you apply futures in policymaking? And Wales's story and in this is not unique.
00:16:07
Speaker
The indigenous learning and wisdom of many communities across the world teaches that that's deeply embedded in humanity, the ability to to believe, to imagine, to dream of a better future. And yeah, I'd very much like to hear the F word far more often in our vocabulary than we allowed.
00:16:28
Speaker
Oh, that's just so wonderful. What I take away from that is your observation that you find the connection between your great-great-grandfather and the work that he was doing and engaged with and the work that you find yourself immersed in today somewhat ironic. But for me, i guess, having just recently stumbled upon this field of futures thinking, long-termism, intergenerational governance, I have come to having had my own my own thinking somewhat challenged and redirected, i view that simply as just a kind of example of the intergenerational ripple effects that can stem from ah choice or a simple action or decision that was taken, as you say, 100 years ago, and it can still be having impact on people 100 years later. And that's just the kind of thinking that I think
00:17:18
Speaker
As futurists, we all need to be seeding in current and both future generations. So thank you for sharing. Now that you've discussed why that's so important, let's dive more into the Wellbeing of Future Generations Act in Wales itself, which, as we know, has been a pretty big source of inspiration for our own movement for future generations thinking and policymaking in Australia. And of course, the Wellbeing of Future Generations bill that ah One of our own parliamentarians, Dr Sophie Scamps, introduced into federal parliament back in February this year.
00:17:51
Speaker
That bill itself takes direct inspiration from the Welsh legislation, especially in the call that it included for a national conversation on future generations. Jack, could you tell us a bit more about how the process unfolded in Wales and what kind of public and community consultation was there before your bill was introduced and how did that ultimately shape the legislation you've ended up with in Wales today?
00:18:16
Speaker
Well, the Welsh story isn't mine fully to tell and perhaps to take the opportunity to recognise the efforts of those that led the way over decades in Wales, in particular to Jane Davidson, the minister responsible at the time for introducing ah concept that concept. It would be remiss of me not to to show her book at this stage, hashtag futuregenlessons from a small country. And maybe there's something in small but awesome countries who do good in the world and we'd be able to identify a few of them, I'm sure.
00:18:49
Speaker
But to Jane, to Sophie Howe, the first Future Generations Commissioner, to Peter Davis, and the Sustainable Futures Commissioner before Sophie and to ministers and parliamentarians to NGOs and of course my colleagues in the office of the Future Generations Commissioner past and present and future ones why why not including the current Commissioner Derek Walker so Wales is proud sustainable journey is a is a long one it's really only start at 2015, but since devolution, possibly before then
Development and Impact of Wales' Wellbeing Act
00:19:24
Speaker
too.
00:19:24
Speaker
um But this duty was at the heart of the expectations placed by the people of Wales through devolution. And what Jane Davidson expresses is that she was keen to move from a duty to promote sustainable development to a duty to deliver sustainable development. We promote things all the time.
00:19:45
Speaker
good at promoting, she says, but we're not very good at delivering. So placing that expectation on delivery was quite at the heart of of her ambition. And Wales has always had this intergenerational response.
00:20:00
Speaker
It has a children's commissioner, the first in the UK to appoint one, the first in the world to have an older people's commissioner, the first in the world, naturally, to have a Welsh language commissioner.
00:20:12
Speaker
and now the first in the world to have a statutory future generations commissioner. That in itself demonstrates a picture that we recognise different constituencies, but also how those ages and demographics work together across boundaries and across challenges and integrate our thinking.
00:20:30
Speaker
And in 2014, 2015, course, what was happening, the UN was developing its own sustainable development goals. I'm pleased to say that the Wellbeing of Future Generations Act passed, I think, around three or four months before the UN passed its sustainable development goals, perhaps Wales leading the way in that respect as well.
00:20:47
Speaker
But Wales is still, through this legislation, the only country to have legislated on the basis of the SDGs, translating those goals into law. And that's a challenge. you know we have to We have to believe in the SDGs as one of the very rare examples globally of multilateral cooperation, but also this long-term peace. you know the The goals at 2030, when people say, oh, we can't do long-term thinking, I only need to point towards the SDGs as possibly one of the strongest examples of common vision setting.
00:21:18
Speaker
and And before I go into the this very specifics of the process, you know just to acknowledge that Wales has always mattered on the international stage. We understand the difficult past in our contributions, but also in the positive steps that we've taken, whether that's through the Welsh Women's Peace Petition, the Peace and Goodwill message of the year of our largest youth movement, which has continuously sent peace and goodwill message um for over a century across the world.
00:21:45
Speaker
And whether it's football, ah whether it's food, whether it's you know really integrating our thinking in into sustainable development. Wales cares about what happens on the planet.
00:21:56
Speaker
And through those values, through those beliefs, the wellbeing of future generations act was born, I suppose. And this national conversation that you that you refer to, Claire, in Wales, the Wales we want.
00:22:08
Speaker
And isn't that beautiful? I mean, how many other examples in legislative journeys where Parliament, government invites, you know, that was the something that somebody said to me recently.
00:22:20
Speaker
The Wellbeing of Future Generations Act is an invitation, and it's such a beautiful way of framing But an invitation to the people of Wales to dream about a better future. and So there's collective dialogue with the people of Wales, and therefore it is a people's act.
00:22:34
Speaker
Not many pieces of legislation can affirm to that statement. and and and then And then through the Wales we want and the conversations in Parliament, etc., we were able to to pass this legislation in 2015. And yes, you're right, we mark the 10th anniversary of that special moment with lots of learning and no doubt we'll come to that later. But it's a very proud piece of legislation that I have the honour amongst my colleagues to implement.
00:23:00
Speaker
Well, thank you for sharing the story. And it just it does sound very serendipitous in terms of like how it all kind of came together and the right sorts of belief systems, the right people rallying behind a cause that you really care about delivery application and delivery versus the promotion mindset, I think is one.
00:23:16
Speaker
I think a lot more government could um use and benefit from applying to their own sort of approach to things. Deeply inspiring and a small and mighty country with a lot of outward ripple effects, which is incredible. You know, it' we're we're feeling it all the way here in Australia. So now that we know a little bit more about the Wales We Want process, I would love for you to unpack for us the core components of the Wales Wellbeing of Future Generations Act. Like how did it actually reshape Welsh governance and the way policy and decisions were made?
00:23:46
Speaker
Well, the Act is often referred to as a framework and a vision. So in the vision element, it ah identifies the seven wellbeing goals that each of our 56 public bodies must maximise contribution towards. And those 56 bodies would include all Welsh Government ministers, our national bodies, public health, the arts, library,
00:24:12
Speaker
but also our local local government and our health boards are also covered. And those seven goals are quite important. They are the what we hope to achieve through the well-being of Future Generations Act. So by start, I'd have to finish, or maybe reference ah a few of them.
00:24:30
Speaker
Cohesive communities, a prosperous Wales, a resilient Wales, a globally responsible Wales. I feel like I've got to continue. Wales of vibrant culture and thriving Welsh language.
00:24:42
Speaker
A more equal Wales and a healthier Wales. i hope i haven't repeated myself. But a globally responsible Wales. So this was about Wales recognising that any decisions it made must take account of the impact that it would have globally and to avoid the negative impact that it would have.
00:25:01
Speaker
That was a goal that was added quite late to the parliamentary process as I end as i understand, not but not because Wales again didn't believe in that approach, but I think it didn't come through as strongly perhaps in the Wales we want national conversation. We were the first fair trade nation, for example. So we always believed in them and the the importance of of that activity and we now have the ambition to become a nation of sanctuary through that goal.
00:25:23
Speaker
And then that Wales of vibrant culture and thriving Welsh language culture was absent from the sustainable development goal. So this was quite a a brave step, a natural one for us in Wales, but a brave one in the policy making space to introduce culture as the fourth dimension of sustainable development. It now has a statutory space within the well-being of future generations.
00:25:46
Speaker
A quicker side, I'd like to see more of our public institutions do more around culture, but that's a topic for another podcast. So that's the vision, that's the what we want to achieve, and that's attributed to milestones and indicators so we have a process to measure our our progress.
00:26:01
Speaker
But in terms of the framework element to the to the legislation, we have what's called the five ways of working, so and these I will reference. So long-term thinking, really important.
00:26:13
Speaker
It's the heart of the Wellbeing of Future Generations Act in one sense. It's the USP for the legislation. It means lifting our heads up and seeing into the horizons. the impact not only on current generations but on those not yet born.
00:26:26
Speaker
Involvement, involving communities, those impacted by the decisions that we take. How many times are we are ah we not asked in decisions that are taken and perhaps when we are asked, we're ignored. So that's why we use the word involvement rather than consultation or engagement is a far more evocative word and more action oriented.
00:26:46
Speaker
Collaboration, sounds obvious but you know who who knew we had to legislate for common sense these days. But collaboration not only amongst communities, but amongst sectors, amongst the public institutions covered by the Act and across sectors.
00:27:01
Speaker
The integration point, how do we ensure that policy is integrated, that we're not working in silos? and And finally, prevention. How do we prevent problems from occurring or from getting worse?
00:27:14
Speaker
you know We kick the can down the road. I'll coin the phrase that your colleagues will be far more familiar with, and I give credit to the foundations for tomorrow for this, but this polycrastination, this idea that we are putting things off, not just one thing, but many things.
00:27:30
Speaker
So the Wellbeing of Future Generations Act attempts to prevent problems from occurring. So those are the two elements in terms of the what on goals, and then how we're going to achieve them through the ways of working, and then finally the The role then that that is placed on the statutory independent Future Generations Commissioner provides public bodies with the advice and support that it requires to take this difficult, know, cultural change is difficult, piece of legislation through, but also the monitoring and assessing. We are very proud that Derek, as as the commissioner, but the the team of 20, 25 of us, act as guardians for the interests of future generations, meaning that we will stand by our beliefs um and the decisions that we take
00:28:17
Speaker
And that will mean challenge. It will mean uncomfortableness. It will mean saying, well, hold on. You can't pay for that. You shouldn't go there. You shouldn't build that there. And these aren't easy ah challenges, but I'm very proud that we have a piece of legislation that gives us the permission to think differently.
00:28:34
Speaker
But that comes with being comfortable with being challenged too. Of course. I mean, my biggest takeaway from the framework that you've just unpacked for us are the different compartments, I guess, if you like, of it. And what I really love in terms of the thought process in its design are how you've not only just got the what, what are we actually trying to strive for here? What does it mean to...
00:28:58
Speaker
lead responsibly to lead sustainably. But then you've also got the practical how-to. The ways of working are, I guess, your practical blueprint for implementing and delivering your what. And my favourite part of that is just how much you've strived to prioritise the embedment of culture, which, as you say, has been absent from the original framework of sustainable development principles. And I think that's absolutely something that Australia with our proud 60,000 plus years of Indigenous history can definitely take further inspiration from. And then finally, you've also got that component of independence, which
00:29:32
Speaker
as you said, as well, is such a critical part of ensuring that there is a check and balance on your ability to deliver on this framework and to evaluate and constantly reassess your progress. So with that, we often say 10-year anniversaries are often a time for reflection, maybe even redirection sometimes. And 10 years on from its introduction, I would love to hear some more about from your personal perspective, having worked so closely on shaping and implementing the legislation What has been your assessment of the impact it's actually been able to have on the lives of current generations of Welsh people?
00:30:10
Speaker
Are there some examples you can point to of it positively affecting changes, affecting more long-term thinking within decision makers? And is there anything from your standpoint that needs to change or be improved to continually strive to strengthen the future that will be inherited by future generations of Welsh people?
00:30:30
Speaker
Well, we are... constantly in review of this legislation. 10th anniversary, you're right, gives us an opportunity to stop and to reflect more formally on progress.
00:30:43
Speaker
But as i as I said, we constantly review and identify learning, whether that's through statutory section 20 reviews, which gives the opportunity for the commissioner to conduct, for want of a better way of raising it, in investigatory ah powers into a public body or public bodies.
00:31:01
Speaker
And we provide assessments on the progress and the application made by public bodies And then every five years, a year before a Senev or a parliament election, we produce a Future Generations report. And we've just published our latest one in May this year. So we have elections next year to look forward to if you're a ah political anorak like me. So that's an exciting opportunity to...
00:31:30
Speaker
inform. It's always timed in this way the report be because we want the report to be the basis for political manifestos regardless of where you sit on the political spectrum whether or not you will form a government or or not and we have had great success as an office but as a as a movement that transcends our but office boundaries you know of of being able to inject the importance of future generations thinking, whether that's around prevention and health, whether that's around nature and and climate. There's the opportunity that a future generations report offers. In fact, in the last report in 2020, we called for a universal basic income
00:32:08
Speaker
later in the parliamentary term, a basic income pilot was introduced. We also called for stop building new roads. Well, a few months into that into the last Senedd term, the end minister responsible for for transport put a pause on road building.
00:32:26
Speaker
And again, that's because of the the championing and the the leadership of parliamentarians, but also of the influence of policymakers and advocates outside of government utilizing the levers that the Wellbeing of Future Generations Act offers in this space.
Public Engagement and Global Influence
00:32:41
Speaker
We also have ah another formal element of the 10th anniversary, the ah Equality and Social Justice Committee, which is the committee that's responsible for hosting the act in the parliamentary committees in the Senedd. They've just announced we're about halfway through now the post-legislative scrutiny. It's the first time I've probably said post-legislative scrutiny.
00:33:02
Speaker
That's the second time without Sumbling over my words. But this does give a very formal element to listening to to public bodies, to scrutinising every aspect of the Act.
00:33:15
Speaker
And we'll have our opportunity in the autumn. to provide our oral evidence and recognising my gratitude once again to the Foundations for Tomorrow for submitting written evidence to committee and to all other international partners who have done that.
00:33:29
Speaker
So we are very open to learning and to to amending. you know There's no one size that fits all. We've never claimed that other countries should follow the Welsh law to the letter and indeed because the other countries are approaching this from different lenses, different emphasis, different detail, that we are in a very good position to be able now to adopt the good practice of others in in the work that we're doing. and I suppose the Future Generations report this year identified a few key learnings for us and I would encourage listeners to navigate their way to the full report but I'll teach you with a few of the few of the findings. that The people in Cymru in Wales are rightly proud that we have a shared vision for the Wales that we want for Future Generations and that the Act provides a framework for that vision. We know the challenges we face are significant in the present and in the future, but they're not insurmountable. The Commissioner published his Cymru Can strategy, this idea of Wales can overcome its challenges with the aid of the Act and with but sectors.
00:34:34
Speaker
And since committing to the journey 10 years ago, we've made progress progress from Free school meals for primary pupils to being the second best country in the world for ah recycling.
00:34:45
Speaker
We know there's more that needs to be done. We're in a climate and nature emergency. Our poverty levels remain unacceptably high. But we know the solutions exist.
00:34:56
Speaker
necessarily in Wales and that's another point of the Grow Responsible Wales goal is that we're always looking to to work in partnership with with other countries. But the solutions do exist, we need to implement them.
00:35:08
Speaker
And this emphasis on prevention needs to be far higher in in the work that we're doing, that we're not cutting essential activities that contribute to better well-being. I've advocated for culture already on this podcast, I'll do so again at this point.
00:35:22
Speaker
How can we make sure our communities are vibrant with the cultural assets that mean that we do not rely on our health service, but actually keep people well for longer? And the involvement of citizens and communities. We've seen some big decisions being made over the last year. in line with the Act, but perhaps are still being challenged by the lack of involvement of our citizens and communities of all types.
00:35:46
Speaker
And it's important that as we strive to to address the challenges that I've outlined, that we work in partnership with communities. And we've got to do that far better than we have done in previous years.
00:35:57
Speaker
um I've talked very long, so i'm I'm going to end with a quick he just only to demonstrate that yes there are national elements to this shifting people away from cars to active travel putting climate justice at the heart of our new curriculum based on the act but the but local examples are powerful i was in a seaside town recently and the local community have decided to install solar panels on their community hall that makes sense you could end the story there and you could champion that as a good example but what they've then done
00:36:27
Speaker
is ensured that the electricity provided by the solar panels finds its way to the local doctor's surgery, saving the local surgery money in the same way. So integration, community building, working in across various sectors, that's the act unlocking new ways of working and empowering local communities to to do better.
00:36:48
Speaker
Well, okay. So safe to say it has had quite the tremendous impact over the past 10 years and it's it's cool. I think the the global example is is really inspiring, but I deeply feel like when you can put in a fair face to the name, it's like the cafe owner down the street or your example that you just shared, like the tangible experience effects to the wellbeing and the quality of somebody's life because of this. I think that's incredible. And I think a lot of countries can look to this as an example. And what I took from everything that you really shared is the humility that this project has, the the receptivity to feedback.
00:37:23
Speaker
The awareness that it's not without its challenges to implement the various insights that you're gathering. It's very difficult, but there's a real commitment. There's a collective commitment and there's a real devotion to making the vision come to life, irrespective of that.
00:37:39
Speaker
So really appreciate all of that. And now that we've kind of unpacked that journey in becoming a global leader in future generations policy, I'd love to talk a little bit more about the global movement this legislation has since inspired. So you've advised on the UN common principles for future generations and participated in the Summit of the Future where the UN n adopted the historic pact for the future and declaration on future generations. How many times can I say future in one sentence?
00:38:04
Speaker
um In your view, Jack, what needs to happen next to bring the ambitions of these global frameworks to life? How can other countries follow Wales's leadership in embedding intergenerational concerns and greater accountability into their governance systems?
00:38:19
Speaker
You can never say futures enough in one sentence. So I often talk about the UN common principles for future generations as one of the greatest moments for me personally, not only to be asked to advise on the development of the principles, I believe there are 12 principles, that mean the PAC for the future applies to member states, yes, of course, but the principles which were adopted a few months prior is a commitment from the architecture of the UN.
00:38:50
Speaker
that it is sending a signal that says we are ready to support multilateralism with this renewed intergenerational fairness lens. So those common principles apply to all that work within the UN system across all UN agencies and the UN is under strain, particularly at the moment with UN reform.
00:39:14
Speaker
But as that golden thread through the complex landscape of the UN at the at the moment, knowing, yes, of course, that the UN reform, reform, 80, as it's been coined, is in itself a futures exercise. What's the type of UN that we want to see in the future?
00:39:30
Speaker
What kind of workforce? What kind of systems do we need? So that was a big honour for me. I believe it was the first time that the system had invited an external expert into this to that space. So to have Wales flying its flag at that point was
Translating Global Frameworks into Action
00:39:45
Speaker
really important. So the other the other thing I talk about is the emphasis not not on moments, but on movements.
00:39:53
Speaker
and I've been to various UN forums over the last couple of years, be it COP, be it the civil society conferences, the youth conferences, the summits themselves, HLPF, the high-level physical forums, and they are important aspects of the global discourse, but they will only work in implementation, in the delivery, know, back to the duty to promote and duty to deliver aspects of the Welsh legislation. It's important that Any pact, any declaration finds its way into implementation.
00:40:27
Speaker
um So that's why our job doesn't an end on the final day of any summit. In fact, it starts. And at a time when the world is in polycrisis, the very fact that we were able to adopt a pact for the future with consensus across 193 countries demonstrates that it is possible to come together and find common common ground.
00:40:50
Speaker
um we've seen that echoed then in the EU, the Intergenerational Fairness Commissioner, we've seen it in in Africa, in many guises, a Kenyan caucus for future generations. And a nod at this point to all of the ah networks who are working globally, the School of International Futures, in particular the network of institutions and leaders for future generations, who are working to implement the declaration on future generations. And that hasa has to happen. And I'm very proud of the way that I'm translating that moment in September last year into a movement.
00:41:28
Speaker
is that I formed and now co-lead the Impact Coalition for Future Generations. It was a concept that that was brought about at the Future Generations Forum that i I hosted in Wales last year alongside the Commissioner and Welsh Government where we produced the Wales Protocol for Future Generations in partnership with the School of International Futures.
00:41:51
Speaker
Started in Wales but then it was formed at the Civil Society Conference in Nairobi. We are a a global ah network, over 600 people dedicated to translating the declaration into into action, to work alongside the group of friends of member states who are formed under the and the leadership of Jamaica and the Netherlands.
00:42:16
Speaker
This implementation is going to require leadership. It is going to require resilience and and imagination still. The declaration doesn't have all the answers in it.
00:42:29
Speaker
and So it's incumbent on movements like the Impact Coalition for Future Generations to step into the space to continue to communicate. you know If we were to ah ask your listeners to define future generations, we would have ah long list, no doubt, of what that accounts for.
00:42:44
Speaker
um And just for the record, we we account for those not yet born as the definition of future generations before that debate goes any further. But it's and you know really still an important aspect to this, which is how do you communicate the declaration? How do you break it down into examples? How do you translate that into into measurements and progress and then accountability that will come from it. And yeah, so the the global space is one of the aspects that I'm, that again I'm continuously proud that we managed to to get this done with ah within very, very challenging times.
00:43:23
Speaker
We're quickly approaching the end of our episode together, but just before we get to our final couple of questions, one really important thing I wanted to just highlight from what you've just shared there, Jacques, is movements versus moments, or rather moments versus movements. And It's so important, as you say, that we convene in these multilateral spaces and forums to overcome the the enormous challenges that you've mentioned in the different regions we're facing around the world to demonstrate that we can still lead responsibly and sustainably and create these global frameworks that will help us to surmount the challenges that we're facing. But the real challenge, as you mentioned, is how do we make sure these are just more than moments in time? And they very much are.
00:44:08
Speaker
as you say, the beginning rather than the culmination of the work we've got ahead of us. And yes, the Global impact coalition Impact Coalition for Future Generations that you're leading is just an incredible example of how we start to begin to translate these global frameworks.
00:44:24
Speaker
into action. One of our final questions we have for you and that I wanted to give you some time to dedicate yourself to as you're so passionate about is this idea about cultural wellbeing. It's a critical part of long-term governance and for, again, a country like Australia with such a rich history of Indigenous people and culture seeking to follow Wales' leadership and
Culture and Creativity in Governance
00:44:48
Speaker
act on its global responsibilities, I'd love to just understand finally why, from your perspective, culture is more than just a nice to have. What kind of role can it play in creating futures that people actually want to live in?
00:45:02
Speaker
so on I'm a big advocate for this. I was very proud to have been a ah charity trustee for our two national arts bodies here in Wales, Literature Wales and Theatre Gennad Laethol Cymru, the National Welsh Language Theatre Company.
00:45:19
Speaker
So my my comments stem from a background in understanding fully the great work that's been done, not only, and I say not only because there is a need for this to be an entertainment aspect, but not only from an entertainment aspect. What these cultural organisations and what culture provides is far deeper than just for entertainment, just these nice-to-haves, as you put it. So that's why Wales put culture as the fourth dimension of sustainable development, and our Act mandates that all public bodies, regardless of being the arts,
00:45:49
Speaker
a national arts company or being the national library or sports that all of our public institutions takes the steps to realise a Wales a vibrant culture and thriving Welsh language.
00:46:01
Speaker
And i champion very much the importance of creativity as a skill as an essential skill for our public servants. Everybody has the ability to nurture that skill of creativity. You don't have to be an artist to be creative, but you're able to bring imagination, new ways of working.
00:46:18
Speaker
And that person around the table that just goes, yeah, what if you do this in this way? What dare I say? what but What if we stood up from the board table and went out and played for a little bit? What might that generate in terms of ideas and connection?
00:46:31
Speaker
But hey, your listeners in in Australia and around the world, but particularly in Australia, will be able to resonate far deeply with the cultural aspects to this. And perhaps that's what Wales and Australia has most in common. We certainly don't have rugby success, although I won't mention the Lions for too much in this course.
00:46:51
Speaker
No, at least not to um upset some listeners. but or What you were sharing about imagination kind of reminds me of the quote from Einstein. and It's ah imagination is more important than knowledge. I think that's really, really um resonates in this because it's using that creative outlet to explore and be curious about what could be.
00:47:10
Speaker
think not just applying logic, but applying more of that. And I think that's really such a permission slip that this also, this process, whilst we are tackling some of the world's literally biggest problems, doesn't have to always be like all this doom and gloom and heaviness, like we can feel that creative expression. And I believe that we're all artists in some way, shape or form. And if we can express that part of us, then and beautiful things can come from that.
Reflections and Conclusion
00:47:35
Speaker
So I love that.
00:47:36
Speaker
But to close, because we are very rapidly running out of time, if not ah over time already, we'd love to end with something that gives you hope. If there's that one thing that inspires you to get out of bed each day and keep championing the well-being of future generations, so if you were to distill that into one thing, what would it be, Jack?
00:47:54
Speaker
Awesome people. Because I, you know, awesome some people doing awesome things and you know that if you're a policymaker, a parliamentarian, a government minister, you're paid to come up with good ideas.
00:48:06
Speaker
It's your mandate to improve the lives of of others. um But my attention turns to the quiet changemakers who are in systems, who are channeling their frustration.
00:48:19
Speaker
ah to line managers upwards and possibly downwards to colleagues as well, but also to the to the voluntary sector who have continued to champion the Act and its principles for a very, very long time.
00:48:32
Speaker
And to our colleagues, Elders to those working in in communities who have always dreamed of a better Wales and that the the gift that the Wellbeing of Future Generations Act offered them in 2015 has to mean something now.
00:48:46
Speaker
You know, we we owe something. We have a ah contract with the people of Wales that we must deliver. And what gives me hope finally is is the Welsh mantra, the St David's mantra that we mark on the 1st of March each year.
00:49:00
Speaker
Gwnewch a pethaid bychain, do the small things. That's what he says, and that's often the only part of the quote that is aired. But there is an extension to that, and I think that it resonates with this question, and is a deep kind of it it resonates deeply with me.
00:49:13
Speaker
Gwnewch a pethaid bychain, cadwch a fydd a byddwch lawen. Do the small things, keep the hope, keep the faith, and finally, keep the joy.
00:49:24
Speaker
And I think in times of hardship, What gets me out of bed, it's not something that's tattooed on me or indeed it's not written in my bedroom, but I feel that it is embedded deeply into my mind that we strive to do the small things to keep the hope and to do so with joy.
00:49:50
Speaker
Ah, he couldn't have said that better. Imagine if we had a mantra like that to live by in Australia. Claire, what do you think ours would be? Well, it's hard to top what they have in Wales, but to take inspiration from what Jack said, the power in that message is its simplicity.
00:50:06
Speaker
And it doesn't have to be some long, sophisticated saying for it to be resonant or emotionally moving. So personal one I like to live by is that small steps lead to big changes.
00:50:18
Speaker
And that's a reminder to me on the days where the big structural institutional changes that we're all trying to affect here seem impossible or a bit out of reach. That it's the stepping stones in our journey that we take over time that add up and help us to reach our final destination.
00:50:34
Speaker
I fully agree. And something that I like to think about it's is that it's the aggregate of marginal gains compounded over time, meaning it's the small, tiny micro steps, the 1% every single day that really create the big results. It's not just the big lunges forward, the big, like big action. It's actually the small things done consistently over time.
00:50:54
Speaker
And on that note, we'll leave it there for today. We hope you enjoyed hearing another perspective from across the water. If you liked the episode, leave us five stars on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen in. And if you want to know more about this For Our Future campaign and future generations movement in Australia, please give us a follow on our socials at For Our Future campaign and at Foundations for Tomorrow.
00:51:15
Speaker
And if you want to get involved, you can always send us an email ah hello at hello foundationsfortomorrow.org. Oh, and please don't forget, sign our petition for a federal Wellbeing of Future Generation Act. The link, as always, is in our description below.
00:51:30
Speaker
I'm Claire Beaton-Wells. And I'm Anna Bazoo. We'll be back with another final episode shortly to talk more about policy and what's in it for you. Bye!