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Job-sharing: a new way of governing?
20 Plays9 days ago
It's been a few weeks... we know!! But we are back with Episode 2 of the pod and once again, diving right in...
This episode we chat all about how we can re-imagine the structures of our governance model to make political leadership more flexible, more diverse and inclusive, and ultimately, more effective!
Our guests for this episode are Lucy Bradlow and Bronwen Bock, who are seeking to become Australia's first job-share candidate in the Australian Senate. They have formed the Better Together Party and while some bumps in their legal proceedings mean they won't be able to run in this year's election, they're aiming for 2028!
Together with them, we break down how job-sharing would actually work in Parliament, what it would mean for public governance and what it truly takes to change the system.
Keen to learn more? Follow us on our socials @foundationsfortomorrow and @forourfuturecampaign
Ready to take some action? Sign our petition here!
Want to support The Better Together party? Check out their website here and socials - Instagram, Tik Tok & Facebook
What's In It For You is a Foundations For Tomorrow podcast, produced as part of the 2025 For Our Future campaign. It is hosted by Clare Beaton-Wells and Anna Bezzu.
Links and resources:
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Transcript
Acknowledgment of Traditional Custodians
00:00:00
Speaker
Today's episode was recorded on the traditional lands of the Camaragal people of Sydney, New South Wales, as well as with our guests on the traditional lands of the Wurundjeri people of Melbourne, Victoria. As co-hosts, we pay our respects to Indigenous Elders past and present and acknowledge that intergenerational leadership and long-term practices of stewardship have been cornerstones of Indigenous cultures for thousands of years.
Why Youth Involvement in Politics Matters
00:00:28
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the podcast where we two young passionate Aussie women are breaking down why young people say in politics matters and what's really in it for them when it comes to future generations policy and the Australian federal election this year.
00:00:42
Speaker
I'm Claire Beaton-Wells, a former political staffer, future generations champion and policy innovator. I'm passionate about inspiring young people to lead the charge when it comes to addressing some of our most complex challenges.
00:00:53
Speaker
And I'm Anna Bezu, a corporate girlie bridging business and impact, helping young people connect everyday choices to long-term change in society. Coming up on the show today, we will be speaking with two incredible ladies who are reimagining the structures of Australian governance as we speak.
Legal Battles in Victorian Senate Candidacy
00:01:09
Speaker
Now, at the time we recorded our interview with them, they were Australia's official job-sharing candidate in the upcoming federal election, standing for a Senate seat in Victoria. And for anyone unfamiliar with their story, it has been far from a smooth journey for them.
00:01:24
Speaker
Most recently, they've been battling it out in federal court, seeking a decision regarding the constitutional validity of their candidacy. And sadly, the announcement of federal the federal election date in the last week since we recorded this, which is May 3rd for anyone that hasn't heard yet, has meant that they will not be able to have their legal matter resolved in time for the election, resulting in them having to withdraw their candidacy and unfortunately end their campaign early to become Australia's first job-sharing candidate.
00:01:51
Speaker
Now, while they will no longer be running in the upcoming federal election, we think that their journey to date and their profound resilience in seeking to challenge the status quo in our political system offers a set of quite invaluable insights into exactly the kind of bold leadership we need if we're to build a stronger nation in which everyone has a voice in shaping the future.
00:02:12
Speaker
So while what some of you might hear later later in today's episode may not necessarily reflect the most recent developments in the political landscape, which is and ever evolving one now that the election race is officially on, we hope that you'll still come away from it inspired about what these two incredible women have sought to achieve and will continue to be fighting for post-election.
Job Sharing as a Barrier Breaker for Women
00:02:33
Speaker
Together with them, we unpack how they are breaking down systemic barriers in women in politics for women and how a reimagined model of governments, one involving, for instance, job sharing, could bring about more effective, more visionary policies and ensure that when leaders do actually take up their seat in Canberra, they're fit and up for the job, not burned out after back-to-back weeks in the capital.
00:02:55
Speaker
As always, before diving into the policy and politicking, we'll be doing our thought tunnel vision check, looking at the latest short-termism we've seen in society and how the outcome might have been different if the decision maker had considered long-term impacts.
00:03:08
Speaker
Claire, what's yours this week?
Debating Dutton's Work-from-Home Ban
00:03:10
Speaker
As the election approaches, we're seeing lots of policy announcements coming from both sides of politics as the major parties solidify their campaign platform and make their case to the Australian people.
00:03:21
Speaker
And so what I want to talk about is one of the announcements we've seen from the coalition the last week. Peter Dutton's announcement that if his party was elected, he would actually enforce a work from home ban for public servants.
00:03:33
Speaker
Now, since his announcement, the news cycle has been awash with commentary about the implications of this proposed ban, what it would mean for women, for productivity, and the public service more broadly.
00:03:44
Speaker
And this is not the first time the public service has come under fire in the suite of policy announcements released by the coalition. Just a few weeks earlier, Dutton actually unveiled a shadow ministerial reshuffle, which included the introduction of a minister for government efficiency, whose job it would be to basically cut wasteful public spending.
00:04:02
Speaker
Anyway, back to the idea of a band a ban on work from home arrangements. This, I think, is a particularly interesting announcement in the context of our two guests today who are big champions of gender parity and more equal opportunities for women to participate in politics and leadership.
00:04:18
Speaker
And the reason I picked this specific policy for our tunnel vision check today because the manner in which it was unveiled, I think quite evidently reflects the challenge we're seeing prevalently in the policy arena at the moment where new proposals are announced only to either be quickly walked back or implemented really rushedly without the appropriate checks and balances needed to scrutinize and assess, is this actually a good thing for the long-term benefit of our society?
00:04:46
Speaker
So there are two points I want to make about the announcement that really made me sit up quite straight and wonder, did this need to be checked ah tunnel vision checked for short-termism? The first point is that when Dutton first made the announcement, the immediate backlash and scrutiny it received was heavy.
00:05:03
Speaker
It seemed almost everyone was up in arms from the ACTU, which is the Australian Council of Trade Unions, to the Labour Party, Women's Agenda, all proclaiming that it was purely an anti-woman policy.
00:05:15
Speaker
The second aspect of the announcement that spruiked my interest was the series of facts and statistics that Dutton actually cited in support of this proposal. And what I find quite intriguing is that since the announcement, almost every one of these statistics he used to justify the need for a ban seemed to have been fact-checked and disproven.
00:05:34
Speaker
For example, he stated that this policy would not disproportionately affect women because there are, quote-unquote, plenty of job-sharing arrangements. Yet, when you actually look at the figures,
00:05:45
Speaker
they seem to show a stark disparity between the number of people who are employed full-time in the Commonwealth Public Service, which is 75%, compared to the private sector, where it's only 54%. So this left many questioning what Peter Dutton was actually referring to when he cited this.
00:06:02
Speaker
And without going too far into, I think, how the policy itself is an example of short-termism, as we plan to ask our two incredible subject matter experts who will be joining us very soon for their own views on this,
00:06:13
Speaker
It seems to me that from this aspect, at least, this is a very clear example of hasty short-term decision-making with a lack of checks and balances to ensure that it would actually be serving the long-term interests of the Australian workforce and economy.
00:06:26
Speaker
And so the final point I want to make about this here is that This also isn't the only policy example that demonstrates short-term thinking. It is quite consistent with the challenges we're seeing across the board right now, where we are observing in the policy cycle a system that appears to be incentivizing leaders like Dutton to prioritize quick decisions that will serve their immediate political objectives, which in this case is seeking election, rather than actually thinking about the long-term impacts they might have five to 10 years down the track and whether this will still look like success for Australia then.
00:07:01
Speaker
And just for the sake of arguing the point, some other examples we've seen so far on the unofficial campaign trails are, well, while there were actually quite a few in the budget this week, which was just handed down a couple of nights ago by Treasurer Jim Thomas.
00:07:15
Speaker
And again, without going into any one particular policy, what I will say is that the entire premise of the budget itself being a plan B to the preferred world of an election campaign that would I guess already be half finished had Cyclone Alfred not struck the southeast coast of Queensland a few weeks ago. It's quite a shackled plan at that.
00:07:34
Speaker
Quite evidently, the commentary around the federal budget suggests that the details of what it could or could not contain were heavily guided and strained by this kind of unspoken rule that whatever was going to go into the budget is not allowed to scare voters too much.
00:07:53
Speaker
So immediately, This became a policy announcement that was hampered in its scope and ability to imagine anything too radical or too visionary or too innovative and long term for Australia with the clear, clear message that the focus is on the here and the now for voters rather than five to 10 years down the road. And again,
00:08:13
Speaker
I found it very interesting to observe just how many policy announcements were unveiled in this budget against the back of backdrop of what was at least one large question looming in my mind, and I'm sure in the minds of very many others who also watched, how will all of this be funded?
00:08:30
Speaker
So yeah, i do I do really think that both these examples, at the budget and the way that it was unroed ah rolled out, as well as Dutton's work from home ban, really exemplify the common challenge faced by the political system currently, where we are seeing a lack of robust structures and incentives to encourage long-term vision and thinking and policymaking.
00:08:48
Speaker
Oh, that wow, that's so interesting. There's so much to unpack. But I think one thing that is really interesting for me is that a lot of the stats that Dutton used to justify the policies were often challenged. So that really highlights the need for more transparency and integrity in the evidence that underpins policy.
00:09:03
Speaker
And let's be real, that's not just a one party issue, which is well why I'm so excited to talk to our next
Pioneering Job-Sharing Senate Candidates
00:09:09
Speaker
guest. And it's really, it's incredible because we've got two this week.
00:15:06
Speaker
Lucy Bradlow and Bronwyn Bock, they are Australia's first job sharing candidates in the federal election running for the Senate in
Backgrounds of Lucy Bradlow and Bronwyn Bock
00:15:13
Speaker
Victoria. They are running as job sharing candidates to show that by working together, we can create bold solutions to some of Australia's most intractable issues.
00:15:20
Speaker
They want to deliver better results for all Victorians, better action on climate change, better on alleviating costs, offloading pressures and better on more accountable government. Lucy and Bronwyn, welcome to our show. How are you ladies feeling today?
00:15:35
Speaker
Hi Anna, hi Claire, thanks so much for having us and for introducing us. I will just start off by pointing out that it's a little bit of a mouthful but we are actually Australia's first ever job sharing candidate and this is an important distinction that our lawyer always pulls us up on because we're trying to be two people, one candidate and it's very important because our argument is that there's nothing in the constitution or the electoral act that says you can't have two people for one candidacy.
00:16:07
Speaker
um So we are one candidate. Excellent point. I was actually reading that script and it does say candidate, but then for whatever reason, I just felt the need. I wanted to change it. So I'm really glad you that on Everyone does because it doesn't really roll off the tongue.
00:16:23
Speaker
Okay, perfect. All right. Well, we really wanted to start with some personal motivations and really understand around this need for this renewed approach to governance that you both are imagining through your campaign but first we really wanted to understand sort of the origin story and how this all came to be so if you could share how did you first meet and where did the idea of job sharing a candidate senate seat actually come from sure well we met when we were very young um children our parents of friends um and then we went to high school together and then have stayed friends ever since and
00:16:58
Speaker
Without giving away our age, I will say that we've been friends for over 30 years and we've always worked closely on issues aligned projects. We helped set up a children's home in Tanzania that we continue to fund to this day.
00:17:13
Speaker
um ah but where our paths have gone in very separate directions I lived overseas for 14 years um and I'll let Bron talk a little bit about her background and I worked in po politically aligned um communications so what I like to say in and around politics in the UK and then in the US and I moved back to Australia in at the end of 2020, like a lot of expats, and I started working in Australian politics.
00:17:42
Speaker
And I was pretty shocked by what I found in Australian politics. it was very unprofessional, it wasn't the environment that i expected, um and it was really dominated by the two-party system.
00:17:54
Speaker
So I left politics and I started working um for the Workplace Gender Equality Agency, where I really got to learn more about what causes gender inequality in Australian workplaces.
00:18:05
Speaker
And that really looks more broadly at what causes gender inequality in our society. And through that work, I started us to learn more about how the workplaces are structured and how our our workplace contributions are structured. And I learned that really a lot of women work part time in our economy.
00:18:27
Speaker
and that there are very few leadership positions for part-time workers. And job sharing is a really elegant solution to that. And I started thinking about what if you could have job sharing in politics?
00:18:39
Speaker
What if there was a way that you could bring that in to bring in a broader group of of the types of leaders and also set an example for the rest of the economy? And so that's where the idea came about. And we approached our amazing lawyer, Kim Rubinstein, who's been working on this idea for for a long time.
00:18:59
Speaker
And that's when I approached Bron. And Bron, I'll let you talk about your background and how you came to this project. Thanks Lucy and thanks Claire and Anna for having us on today.
00:19:10
Speaker
When Lucy approached me to run with her as a job sharing candidate and and to really change the face of leadership in Australia, it was such a no brainer for me to say yes. I feel so passionately that workplaces need to change the structures that they have in place to support different types of leaders so that there is better representation of people in their organisations at the top level, but in Parliament it's got to be that Parliament is more representative of the people it represents.
00:19:42
Speaker
And it's quite clear that Parliament should be like any other workplace where there are options for flexible work and job sharing. So I was working in sort of investment banking type work. i'd I'd been in an investment bank for the first 10 years of my career and then I had my first baby and went through the process of negotiating going back three days a week and it was challenging to work out a role that still used all my same skills and was in a part-time position as I was pushing into leadership roles and I moved in-house to an ASX um listed company and led their mergers and acquisitions and venture capital investments and it was a good time in my career because I was managing to work three days a week and still accelerate and take on
00:20:31
Speaker
board positions as we made investments in companies, which was an area I was also specialising in But it was also challenging to keep marrying these leadership roles with flexible work.
00:20:43
Speaker
And this wasn't something that only I came across. I noticed this for many peers in my organisation and and other similar organisations and also friends um returning from parental leave or wanting to work part time for whatever reason and and coming up against these challenges. so When Lucy came to me with the idea, it was it was a very ah very clear yes for me. I still remember being out for a walk today. I think it was late in the year, like a beautiful spring kind of time and her asking me and me thinking, oh gosh, this it's about time. So I feel i feel um really proud to be working on this campaign with Lucy.
00:21:18
Speaker
Wow. Talk about like the perfect like meant to be kind of moment where it was just like the puzzle pieces is fitting together and like the the values and the vision just marrying at the perfect time in history to make something like this happen. It kind of gives me chills because, you know, again, I sort of said this in um the conversation earlier of It's so cool to see such a unique model. And I don't think this is just about a job sharing, you know, proposition. It's about the fact that you're you're innovating, you're shaking up the status quo, you're defying norm. And I think that's something really powerful about the role modeling of that and just seeing problems that exist and rather than sort of
00:21:58
Speaker
magnifying and and just fixating on the negative. It's like, cool, what are we actually going to do? What's the salt solution to something like this? And so it's really great to see that um being demonstrated with both of you. What excited me about hearing a bit more about both of your backgrounds is it sounds like both of them, whilst I think no pathway to politics in Australia at least anymore, or at least what may be the case in the future, is there's no one conventional pathway. And i think it sounds like it was very natural, given the challenges and the personal experiences that you both faced, that this is just where you were both meant to end up innovating, reimagining governance, and yeah, ultimately trying to serve your communities for the better.
00:22:36
Speaker
So I guess my next question is, given this idea of flexibility and adaptability and the need for that that you both have touched on
Calls for Political System Evolution
00:22:43
Speaker
already. Your policy proposal isn't just, it's not just about policy shifts, it's really about testing the the openness of our political system and parliament to evolution. And so given this, we'd like to just start by touching upon what's been in the media landscape and the political landscape over the last week or so, and get some insights from you guys on how you might respond to the opposition leader, Peter Dutton's recent policy announcement about working from home if his government was to be elected.
00:23:13
Speaker
Yeah, well, I think that he's really feeling the backlash of that now. because it's an unpopular idea to force people to stop working over remotely.
00:23:24
Speaker
And actually it's interesting because Parliament House put in a lot of flexible workplace po policies during COVID and then reversed them all as soon as COVID was over.
00:23:35
Speaker
Whereas the rest of the workplace realised that these policies were effective, they didn't reduce productivity, and they allowed both both parents or both sexes or all sexes to be able to have more flexibility in their lives, which is good for the for broader society.
00:23:58
Speaker
And they've seen that their workforce is like them. you know I was looking just on LinkedIn earlier and I saw almost all the jobs that were being advertised had underneath a hybrid role and that's now become the norm.
00:24:11
Speaker
And that's really in a relatively short amount of time that we've seen that working from home has become the norm in most workplaces. So on Peter Dutton's head, be it because he's made a stupid call by saying that firstly.
00:24:27
Speaker
The second stupid thing he did was say it didn't it it wouldn't affect women because they can just job share. And he's wrong about that two reasons. Firstly, what we have seen with flexible work is It has affected women. it has allowed more women to go back into the workplace and more women to go back into the workplace full time if that's what they choose to do.
00:24:54
Speaker
It hasn't allowed them to go back into work full time as much as you think it would it would. the The rates of part-time to full-time work haven't increased dramatically, but it has ah it has created more roles, so ah more opportunities for women to go back in full-time.
00:25:10
Speaker
We wish there were opportunities for women to to job share. I think when I looked at the stats, it showed that the public sector has even less job-sharing roles than the private sector does.
00:25:26
Speaker
Interestingly, 75% of employees in the public sector actually work full-time ah compared to 54% in the private sector. So the public sector is really pushing full-time roles and women, ah the the rates of manager roles in the public sector are similar to the private sector, so around 8%. So there are very few part-time manager roles available to to people in the public sector. they
00:25:58
Speaker
So we can infer from that that there are very few job sharing roles available. So he he probably should have checked his stats before he went out and made the glib comment that it's fine, women could job share.
00:26:11
Speaker
I think that our broader point is that job sharing should be much more widely available across ah the the job market, but also it should be one of a suite of options available for everyone and definitely not just women, for men and women and and anyone in the workplace who isn't willing or able to work in a full-time capacity that allows them to to bring whatever they can to the workplace. I mean, ultimately, this is about a more productive workforce.
00:26:44
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think as you said in your opening, it's just such an elegant solution to so many of these common issues that we all face. Anna, did you have any thoughts? I mean, it's just an interesting one of not reading not reading the room almost and and just recognising why the diversity in voices and opinions matter. It's like we need to understand what is representative and what actually is going to provide solutions within Parliament. So,
00:27:13
Speaker
Yeah, it's just ah interesting of like the disconnect that can occur and like why we need voices to actually advocate for solutions that otherwise get dismissed as, you know, an unconventional.
00:27:24
Speaker
Yeah. And it really is interesting to see the lack of fact checking that went on there. there The difference between like the dis the really stark disparity between the number of full-time roles available in the public staff as ah service compared to the private is dark. And yeah, this seems to me at least like a policy when I read it that would only further entrench that disparity rather than actually address it.
00:27:45
Speaker
So thank you both so much for your insights on that. I want to take us in a little bit of a different direction now back very much so to what may feel like a long, long time ago to you both now, with a question more around where your candidacy
Impact of Higgins Seat Abolition
00:27:58
Speaker
actually began. And the Higgins seat, that was obviously a key focus of your campaign before the AEC redrew the boundaries. And so I'd love you both to share just for our listeners and break it down a bit.
00:28:08
Speaker
What actually happened? How did that, how has that impacted your direction, that decision? And what were some of the key lessons that you drew from that experience? Lucy and I launched our campaign for Higgins back in April last year and it felt like a really big moment because while that was the official campaign launch, we'd been working on the campaign together for job sharing in Parliament behind the scenes.
00:28:31
Speaker
for at least 18 months before that. So it was kind of a a big culmination point for us and great to get it out there and to see the overwhelming public support for it. And that made the the news just about a month later in May of 2024 that it looked like the seat was up for abolition really, really disappointing.
00:28:51
Speaker
it was It was something that we were very aware of that they were doing a redistribution process but we didn't expect them clearly to abolish the seat that we had launched our campaign for.
00:29:02
Speaker
I will say that doing it together with Lucy, so being a job sharing candidate, made it feel, i think, slightly less bad that it would have if if I was doing it on my own, that's for sure. Because, you know, the highs feel really high together, but the lows don't feel quite as low. We can share in the experience and, you know, pretty quickly we regrouped and looked at all of the cards that we had to play and and the options for us going forward.
00:29:30
Speaker
And, you know, we put an objection into that process for, you know, there were there were some some good reasons along the lines of it was one of the only seats that um had all female candidates running for it and the only one that had a job sharing candidate in Australia, which is obviously an Australia first.
00:29:46
Speaker
But despite doing all of that, the seat did get abolished. And Lucy looked at and I looked at the five seats in the house that Higgins was being broken into. And those seats either didn't make sense for us because quite disappointingly, Lucy and I were put into two different seats post the redistribution. So as a job share candidate, it's it's obviously great, especially if you're running as an independent, to be living and part of the community in the seat you're running in.
00:30:13
Speaker
So, so for, for the reasons of either them not making sense or not feeling authentic to us, we didn't go for another seat in the house, but rather we, we thought perhaps a bit bigger. And, um, we thought, how do we still capture all the people we'd been speaking to in Higgins and also the broader support that had come from around Victoria and from around Australia. But in this case, the important part is Victoria because we decided to run for one of Victoria's spots in the Senate in the next federal election.
00:30:40
Speaker
So that that is ah a big shift because we had to form a political party so we could be above the line on the ballot paper. and And that's a very big undertaking. and We got over 1,500 people in just two months to join our party. But that was a great process in and of itself to show us the the huge weight of support behind what we were what we we're doing.
00:31:02
Speaker
And that's that's the job sharing, but also our policies more broadly and behind having an independent voice for Victorians in the Senate. in In terms of what lessons we took from it, I think there's there's definitely the the lesson of things feeling better when you're doing them as a job share and doing it together, but also the need to be agile and flexible with all these things because there have been many roadblocks we've faced. That's that's been one of the big ones and, you know, there been others along the way, but you've got to navigate around them and work out your best best next move with the situation in front of you.
00:31:36
Speaker
Yeah, I think, as you said, having a partner in something like this where what you know you are both navigating is such complex and is such untracked territory can just be something that makes it all the more rewarding in the end when you eventually are able to overcome those challenges that you face.
00:31:54
Speaker
I guess I just want to take this in a different direction because I mean, I touched on the theme of resilience and perseverance in the face of all the, you know, the resistance and the setbacks that inevitably take place along the journey. And I think that there's something really admirable about the the consistency to show up despite all of that.
00:32:10
Speaker
Like where did that come from? And I know like obviously the partnership strengthens that determination, which is really a key part of this all. But like personally, is there anything that sort of motivates both of you to like keep wanting to innovate and keep being bold in these, you know, imagin reimagining of governance?
00:32:26
Speaker
I think at the beginning of the campaign we sat down and we wrote our values and what we wanted to, they were sort of the guiding force behind our campaign and really key things to those, I can't name off the top of my head, but key to those were, you know, driving real change and having an impact.
00:32:45
Speaker
That's really important to both of us. If we just wanted to serve our community, we would have just done it on our own. But then also serving our community and showing our community that we were doing this for them.
00:32:59
Speaker
And I think the combination of those two things really is what kept us going through this whole thing because you know i and I remember vividly when Higgins was abolished the question came up of well should we just call it should we just say we've tried really hard and we can't keep doing it anymore and we felt really strongly that we just had this launch we'd had hundreds of people come out and support us and we'd had really meaningful stories that people told us of why this was really important to them
00:33:32
Speaker
why they wanted to see an independent serve their community, why they wanted to see real change in politics. And we felt a ah strong sense of obligation towards them not to give up.
00:33:43
Speaker
And I think knowing those values and knowing that that's what's guiding you through the process is was fundamental to to keep keeping on going. yeah And that's been true through this. I'm sure we'll get to the legal case that's going on now, but through this legal case, we've just had people write affidavits for us, support of our case. And again, there's been times where people have really pushed us to stop doing this and to give up.
00:34:11
Speaker
And we have said consistently, We can't because people have given us their support, they've given us their time, they've given us their money and we have to be responsible to them.
00:34:27
Speaker
I'm just so glad to hear share that really because, yeah, as I think needs to be acknowledged, what both of you are trying to achieve here is no small thing. And both of you obviously, i think similarly to us too, our big picture thinkers are very aspirational and quite visionary really but When we have big picture thinking and we have big visions that we want to realize and to bring to life without kind of knowing and being clear about your values and your why, which really are ultimately your guiding compass and your blueprint for bringing those big picture ideas to life.
00:35:01
Speaker
Those big picture ideas are just that. They're just ideas. And so I love hearing how, you know, in all of the challenges that you guys have encountered and faced so far, it's been your values and your constant why that have centered and grounded you and brought you back to why you're doing this ultimately and why it's so important that you persevere and keep going.
00:35:20
Speaker
Yeah. is Is there something that helps you in terms of, keeping to come back to that level of determination? Like how do you take care of yourself through this process? Because it is an endurance. It's not just a sprint. It is a marathon. How do you, like from a personal wellbeing perspective, like what helps you kind of stay grounded and anchored to keep showing up in this way?
00:35:43
Speaker
i think for me, it's twofold. The first is probably how proud I feel about what we're doing and how personally aligned with my values and the campaign values it is and that we are genuinely trying to achieve something not for us but for many others to follow through and and hopefully do over time but also for people who've told us they want their representatives to look more like them and want an Australian. So think the purpose helps a lot.
00:36:16
Speaker
um But the second thing in terms of how we maintain our energy, I think the job share is the key there because we we talk a lot about it in if we were elected. So say there'd been a really busy sitting week up in Canberra.
00:36:29
Speaker
and everybody's exhausted after the first week, then what would happen for us is we would do a handover. so whoever was up there would hand everything over to the other person. and then the other person would be there in the second week.
00:36:41
Speaker
And they would actually bring a fresh new energy because they had been rested from the week before. They'd probably been in and around our community, listening to people and just living their their lives and doing their things that they needed to do during that time.
00:36:54
Speaker
But that the level of energy is easier to maintain when we're working together because we are sharing the work. It's ah it's a genuine job share of the campaign as well as when we are elected. I love that. And think, yeah, it just speaks to very much how so this notion, this concept of job sharing itself, it's a very practical solution to the need for better quality leadership at our very highest levels or echelons in society. And so what that leads me to actually is is one of our next questions, and I think you've touched upon this thematically already, Bronwyn, but for some of our younger listeners out there who, as we know, are feeling
00:37:30
Speaker
very disengaged and quite disillusioned at the moment from politics, be it due to being a lack of representation or lack of trust or just those systemic barriers that we know are very entrenched and exist in our political sphere. I'd love to understand from the both of you, how do you actually think making parliament more accessible through proposals like job sharing how can I make parliament more accessible more inclusive and actually potentially encourage greater participation among young people in policy making and politics yeah Bron and I were talking about this earlier today and one of the things we were saying is that in our experience people aren't actually disengaged with politics they're disengaged with politicians and it's an important distinction because
00:38:18
Speaker
Our experience has been that the constituents we talk to really do care about Australian politics and they really do care about outcomes for Australia and they care about Australia's position in the world and the types of policies that um are being put forward.
00:38:36
Speaker
But they feel very disempowered and frustrated by the people sitting in Canberra and the types of things that they argue about and the types of things that they're advocating for.
00:38:49
Speaker
And really, ultimately, there's no answer to that except to do something about it. um And I know both of us were very inspired by the the rise of the community-backed independence. And we've worked with a lot of people from that movement and have been very inspired by the fact that they talk about sitting on the couch and yelling at politicians on the TV screen and then deciding, actually, no, I can do something about this.
00:39:16
Speaker
i can get off my couch and I can go and support a community-backed independent and I can make sure that I have someone representing my community. that actually cares about me and my needs.
00:39:28
Speaker
And I think that that is the truth. you've If you are going to be disengaged, you have to do something about it. And I think that young people ah the ones with the most time and the most energy and the most room to do something about that. so they really have to be the ones that are that are making bold moves and that are getting out there and that are making a difference um because they they can and if you don't do it when you're young, when are you going to do it
00:40:00
Speaker
And just to add in there as well, because you asked specifically about the the the youth of Australia, it's really worth noting that the current parliament has in current parliamentarians as an average age of 51 years old, and only two senators are under 40 and seven members of the House are under 40. And yet the average Australian is a woman aged 30 to 39.
00:40:27
Speaker
So it's not really feeling like today, that Parliament is representative of, you know, the mix of people in Australia. And that's obviously a very specific stat on age. You could go through others on disability and ancestry and, um you know, how many investment homes people own and all these sorts of things, which are all really out of kilter in Parliament.
00:40:47
Speaker
And I think unless you have people with the lived experience of ah being young or living with a disability or caring responsibilities or whatever the the things are, it's very hard to get good policy that is then generated from that parliament to really address the issues at hand that people are facing in their day-to-day lives.
00:41:06
Speaker
And even that, like not just good policy, but bringing it back down to like the very base levels, our Our parliament at the moment and our state of political affairs, I watch it and one of the reasons that I feel sometimes so disillusioned with it is it feels like there is a complete lack of empathy and a lack of compassion and of course part of that stems from not having a parliamentary makeup that truly actually reflects the diversity of our population and our society. And as you said, from just there, if you don't have people who have the lived experiences that they can relate to, i think it is very difficult to authentically craft policy that actually reflects the needs and the values and the priorities of the generation
00:41:50
Speaker
that those policies are intended to serve. So yeah, I guess with that in mind, our next question for you both is more to do with intergenerational fairness, which is really a key tenet of the work that our organization, Foundations for Tomorrow, is engaged in.
Shared Leadership and Intergenerational Fairness
00:42:03
Speaker
We know that intergenerational equity...
00:42:05
Speaker
has been a burgeoning issue in society for a while now. It's central to so many of the complex challenges that we face, like climate change, housing and affordability, economic inequality, cost of living, all of that.
00:42:18
Speaker
And as we've both just noted here, young voices are so underrepresented in policymaking. So I'd love to understand from both of you How do you think that shared leadership can actually bring those fresh perspectives back into policymaking and ensure that those challenges are not just left to be burdens for the next generation to deal with?
00:42:36
Speaker
Well, I think that one of you said at the beginning that job sharing was an innovative idea. And I think that it is and it isn't, right? Like we have a problem with gender equality in workplaces and this is one way we can solve for it.
00:42:54
Speaker
So it's bringing fresh thinking to an intractable problem. And as we know, because we're in currently in the federal court fighting it out, the people in power are saying, no, you can't do that.
00:43:09
Speaker
You can't bring innovative thinking to an intractable problem. And we're saying, well, we have to, because if you bring the same thinking to this intractable problem, it's going to be remain intractable for the rest of time.
00:43:23
Speaker
And I think that same thinking applies to every one of those issues you just mentioned with intergenerational fairness. We aren't going to see radical changes to access to housing or affordability in education if we keep bringing the same thinking to those problems that we've been bringing to it for the last 50, 100 years.
00:43:48
Speaker
These are new issues for a new generation of people that need education new thinking And so i think bringing that innovative mindset of, okay, let's look for a different way is really key to how this idea of job sharing can push for different ideas.
00:44:08
Speaker
Yeah. And I think, as you point out, it does seem just so logical and so rational. If you have new problems, you need new ways of addressing them. You need new methods and mechanisms and all of that.
00:44:19
Speaker
We, as a podcast, I think, are very much about the idea of breaking things down. And I know you both have touched on it a little bit throughout this interview today already. So I just want to give you guys the airtime to explain it a little bit more. But could you perhaps speak a bit more about this legal battle you're facing in court right now? Because I think it connects so much potentially to this theme as I'm sure listeners are wondering about it seems as though the fight so far has been such an uphill battle and there seems to be a lot of resistance to an idea that does just seem so rational so yeah I'd love to hear bit about that
00:44:50
Speaker
Absolutely. um Lucy and I issued in the federal court against the Australian Electoral Commission to test the question of whether it's possible to job share in federal parliament.
00:45:03
Speaker
And we did this because they have come out publicly saying that they will reject our nomination if we fill out the nomination form once the election's called but put both our names on there.
00:45:14
Speaker
So since we've issued the Commonwealth have joined the case but really importantly the the judge who looked at the applications that surrounded that said they could join but no one can charge each other costs because she understands the public interest will she didn't give reasons but we believe that there's a very there's a clear public interest element in what we're trying to achieve so it it it will continue on now in the court um we're just working through timetabling at the moment but likely an early to mid-April court date ahead of a decision that will follow from there hopefully all ahead of the closing of nominations which will likely be sometime around there for what we understand will be a May election
00:45:59
Speaker
Yeah, super interesting.
Legal Challenge Against AEC for Job-Sharing
00:46:00
Speaker
I mean, i just have so many questions about that. I'm sure you might as well. Anna, would you like to jump in? I was just going to say it's so interesting because this is, yeah, we we said it before. It's like not innovative. It is innovative. It's innovative in this particular space, but it's not innovative in private and civil service sectors.
00:46:17
Speaker
And so we we have seen the benefit you've you've shared. It's like it's almost it's easy to kind of deduct from the logic of like shared leadership new perspectives it's you know sharing the the the workload um there's greater diverse thinking and yet it still remains so like entrenched in this old like way of thinking and and it's slow slow to you know politics is so slow to adopt these proven models and i just i'm curious as Why do you think that might be? Why is it that they are so entrenched in in this? and and And why do you think that they are not as open to these sorts of innovations?
00:46:57
Speaker
And what do you think needs to change in order for that to occur? I think, Anna, it's it's a great it's a great question. And one thing I think about is that if I'm thinking about politics versus the private sector or even the the broader public service, you know, the the system around parliament was created over a hundred years ago and and actually hasn't changed a whole lot since. So we're living with a fairly old fashioned system, which has lots of bits that work really well in it, but the lots of things that haven't been you know questioned or um or changed in in some time.
00:47:35
Speaker
And this is one really small example because in the in the private sector, workplaces have had to keep up. They've had to be um flexible, as we've said, you know, during COVID everybody worked from home and, you know,
00:47:46
Speaker
hybrid working is now something that still very much exists in the, in the private sector and they need to keep these offerings up so they can really attract and retain, um you know, top talent to be in their businesses. And you would think that parliamentarians would want to, um, keep up with the times as well. So they could ensure they got voted back in. Um, but I do think it's a, ah an old fashioned, um, system and, um,
00:48:12
Speaker
something that is is it's not straightforward to to question. There's a lot of power and a lot of ego in politics and we're trying to bring ah a new wave of leadership that is more collaborative and that's something that's really challenging for um people in the system to get their heads around. But we are determined to to continue on in our in our drive to do this to um make the system be more accountable to the people it represents and and all of those sorts of things.
00:48:42
Speaker
Excellent. Okay. No, that that makes a lot of sense. And I think that, yeah, look, it's it's one of those things that I hope all all of it turns out. And I guess part of it, this is like, let's stay tuned for the the road ahead. And, you know, our fingers are crossed, because again, we need we need this. And we are certainly ones to advocate for that level of, yeah, the vision of of reimagining what's possible. And I think the pathway that you both are forging is showing people like Claire and I who are enthusiastic about actually wanting to make a real difference for our futures ways that we otherwise wouldn't even be able to think about and contemplate.
00:49:18
Speaker
And I think that's our hope for this episode is to to show our viewers, to show our listeners that there is so many, so many ways and pathways and it doesn't have to conform to the traditional old-fashioned way of thinking that may not feel resonant We wanted to kind of wrap it on with a couple of questions just for both of you to share and reflect um for us and for our listeners. So firstly, Lucy, we would love to get you to answer, and if we look ahead a decade from now, what does success look like for you? Is it job sharing becoming the norm in parliament or broader shift in leadership structures, more diverse candidates stepping forward?
00:49:55
Speaker
Ultimately, what lasting impact do you hope to be making? I definitely hope to see a job-sharing politician somewhere in Australia. But more importantly, i hope that we see just a big increase in different types of leadership across workplaces in Australia.
Hope for Diverse Leadership Roles
00:50:16
Speaker
So whether that be job-sharing leaders, part-time CEOs, managers, um more CEOs who are leaving the office at three to pick up their kids from school and just ah broadening of the idea that you don't need to be always on, always available, always ready to travel to be a successful leader in Australia.
00:50:45
Speaker
Yeah, wonderful. I love i love that idea and that closing reflection there about this idea of if we actually want to make leadership more accessible and more inclusive to different cohorts and groups of people in society, then things do need to change and we do need to make the models of leadership that we have in society, be them in politics and policymaking or elsewhere, more adaptable and more flexible and tailor them to the actual constraints and practical realities that are placed upon people in society. So I think that's really beautiful.
00:51:18
Speaker
I have one last question, perhaps for you, Bron. The political system, we know that it was not designed for flexibility, for collaboration and for shared leadership like the model that you were both trying to bring.
00:51:31
Speaker
And despite all of that, you both are proving that change and evolution is possible even just with the mere prospect of your candidacy. So what is one key message that you hope young people take away from this conversation and take away from your journey whether they are aspiring leaders or change makers or are just starting to think about themselves, their role in shaping the future?
00:51:54
Speaker
I hope young people continue to question the status quo. I think that if they see issues that concern them or things they're not comfortable with. They don't just go along with it, but they ask why something is, you know, happening in that way.
00:52:10
Speaker
And then importantly, that then they take action. and, you know, listen to people and work out a path forward and work out how to create change because it's very easy to, you know, find things that, um, that, that bother you or to, you know, ah you know, you know, complain about things or be disenchanted, but actually taking action is really important. And, um, people get around these things. There'll be other people who care about them as well and want to create change. Um, because these things won't just affect one person. So I'd say,
00:52:42
Speaker
Yeah, keep keep asking questions and then acting on them whenever you can to try and drive a better future for for you and the people around you.
Encouraging Youth to Challenge the Status Quo
00:52:52
Speaker
I love that. And actually, i whilst um Lucy and Ron were sharing, I was actually contemplating Claire. It's like, why don't we do this? We could do this job sharing.
00:53:01
Speaker
You could. You should. You know what I mean? and And like there is so much, that there'd be so many, hopefully people will getting inspiration of like yeah doing this with somebody who equally has a level of passion maybe not in the political sphere but another domain in in your world that you feel passionate about but you've maybe perhaps felt intimidated to take on the whole 100 workload yourself and so yeah this is cool it's a it's a again really great to see practical implementation for for young people for for people who otherwise may feel unable to access something like so
00:53:35
Speaker
That's awesome. Thank you, Ron and Lucy. That was very, very inspiring. and We loved having you. And um for those who are listening, where can people follow along, continue with the journey and and hear about what happens next?
00:53:51
Speaker
Yeah, please jump on www.bettertogetherparty.com.au where you can sign up to our newsletter or sign up to volunteer or even better, make a donation and or follow us at Better Together Party on Facebook or Instagram or TikTok.
Reflecting on Flexible Leadership Journeys
00:54:17
Speaker
Wow, what an interview. While the outcome is disappointing that the legal proceedings with the Australian Electoral Commission will not be able to be resolved in time for them to run as a job-sharing candidate this federal election, as we've heard from both of them, they hope to have the case heard after the election and, if successful, to run in the next election in 2028, paving the way for others to run as job-sharing candidates as well.
00:54:40
Speaker
Yeah, there really are two trailblazers. And I hope that for anyone who tuned in today that despite this outcome, they can still take still take away the incredible lessons shared about the need for more flexible and accountable models of leadership that came to a form of political representation that actually reflects the true diversity of our population.
00:54:58
Speaker
So that's all we have time for today. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And once again, if you liked it, please leave a five-star review on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, wherever you're listening in. You can also sign our petition that calls on the government to establish a Wellbeing of Future Generations Act.
00:55:13
Speaker
The link is in the description below. And of course, you can always give us a follow on our socials. Our handles are at For Our Future Campaign and at Foundations for Tomorrow. If you'd like to get involved, just send us an email at hello at Foundations for Tomorrow.
00:55:27
Speaker
I'm Claire Beaton-Wells. And I'm Anna Bezu. We'll be back with another episode shortly to talk more about policy and what's in it for you.