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The Federal budget decoded: what's in the economics for you?
23 Plays2 months ago
This week we're back with an episode that is truly ALL about breaking down what is in policy for you. And this time, it's the government's economics and tax agenda.
We decode the federal budget announced by the Treasurer Jim Chalmers a few weeks ago, take a stroll down memory lane to understand what historically has produced growing intergenerational inequity for young Australians and discuss strategies for how YOU can be an advocate for your own economic wellbeing and future.
Our guest this week is Thomas Walker, a geographer and economist. He's the CEO of Think Forward, a nonprofit dedicated to advancing intergenerational policy and transforming the structure of our economic and tax system.
Keen to learn more? Follow us on our socials @forourfuturecampaign and @foundationsfortomorrow.
Take some action by signing our petition!
What's In It For You is a Foundations for Tomorrow podcast, produced as part of the 2025 For Our Future campaign. It is hosted by Clare Beaton-Wells and Anna Bezzu.
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Transcript
Acknowledgement and Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
This podcast is recorded on the traditional lands of the Camarigal people in New South Wales, Australia, as well as with our guest today on the lands of the Wurundjeri people in Melbourne. As co-hosts, we pay our respects to Indigenous Elders past and present and acknowledge that intergenerational leadership and long-term practices of stewardship have been cornerstones of Indigenous cultures for thousands of years.
00:00:34
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the podcast where we two young, passionate Aussie women are breaking down why young people say in policy matters and what's truly in it for them when it comes to future generations policy and the Australian federal elections this year.
Hosts' Backgrounds and Passions
00:00:48
Speaker
I'm Claire Beaton-Wells, a former political staffer, future generations champion and policy innovator. I'm passionate about inspiring young people to lead the charge when it comes to addressing our most complex challenges.
00:00:59
Speaker
And I'm Anna Bezu, a corporate girl bridging business and impact, helping young people connect everyday choices to long-term change in society.
Focus on Federal Budget and Economic Policy
00:01:07
Speaker
Coming up on the show today, it's all about the recent federal budget and the government's economic policy agenda heading into the upcoming election.
00:01:15
Speaker
We're breaking down what's in the economic policy agenda for you as a young person with the aim of equipping you with the knowledge and the tools that you need to know to advocate for your own economic well-being and future.
00:01:27
Speaker
And because today's episode is already pretty policy heavy, we don't want to overwhelm you with too much politicking all at once. So we're actually going to skip our tunnel vision check and dive straight in.
Introducing Thomas Walker and His Journey
00:01:38
Speaker
Today we're joined by Thomas Walker, an economist and geographer who currently serves as the CEO of Think Forward, a not-for-profit organization founded and run by younger Australians that aims to inspire intergenerational policymaking and facilitate transformation in our economic and tax systems.
00:01:53
Speaker
Tom has been conducting research and data-driven policy and advocacy campaigns for 10 years. He brings a wealth of expertise, having advised federal politicians, delivered evidence at parliamentary inquiries, and most recently worked alongside independent MP Allegra Spender on her tax green paper.
Impact of Federal Budget on Young Australians
00:02:11
Speaker
In today's episode, we'll unpack the recent federal budget and what it means for young Australians. We'll explore the recent history of economic policy in Australia, how it's contributed to growing intergenerational inequity, and most importantly, what you need to know as a young person to engage confidently in policy debates and advocate for your economic wellbeing.
00:02:29
Speaker
Tom, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining us. How are you feeling today? Oh, so good. it's um It's amazing to be talking to you both. And yeah, interesting topic. Congrats on the podcast. It's very exciting to be here.
00:02:43
Speaker
Well, we're so excited to have you, Tom. um But before we dive in, I guess, into the budget and to the meaty stuff, we'd love to begin with you and your background. So obviously, you've gone from geographer to economist, focused on policy, advocacy and reform. That's quite the shift.
00:02:59
Speaker
Can you tell us what inspired this transition for you? Where did your passion for economics and an advocacy come from?
Economists' Disconnect from Public Realities
00:03:05
Speaker
Yeah, sure. Absolutely. I'm definitely still a geographer.
00:03:09
Speaker
I think that the shift has been from, I guess, private sector consulting to to advocacy. um And yeah, i guess I guess as an economist, I've always sort of been a bit embarrassed by that, right? Like as a profession, we've had a pretty rough couple of decades um Sometimes you see these polls come out like the least trusted professions and like politicians are down the bottom, but like economists aren't far behind.
00:03:35
Speaker
um So, yeah, I guess people, the economists
Think Forward's Vision and Economic Advocacy
00:03:38
Speaker
that people see on TV are kind of like they're like buttoned up in a suit and tie, typically older men and talking about things like like GDP and inflation or yield curves or productivity.
00:03:50
Speaker
and it's just like, blah, like what does it all mean? So I think there's like a ah real... problem with economists seeming like they're very disconnected from people's lives and that breeds sort of a little bit of resentment and distrust in them.
00:04:04
Speaker
So So that's that's kind of a bit of the journey, like starting to think about that as sort of a young economist and like growing up in this world where economics as a profession and economic theory doesn't really speak to my experience as a young person.
00:04:20
Speaker
and I think what most of us experience in our day-to-day lives, like living in an economy, which is not some distant thing that's mathematical models. It's like how we live our lives. It's how we get healthcare. care It's how we...
00:04:32
Speaker
get to work, it's how we put food on the table, it's our jobs, it's all these kinds of things, it's sort of day to day. um And so i guess the shift has been from working in consulting, which I loved and learnt a lot, but sort of advising government, that kind of work to actually wanting to get really involved in, hey, what's going on here? What's the story?
00:04:54
Speaker
How do we break this down for people, including including myself, like understanding these things because I don't know, like i'm i'm I'm a millennial, so I'm not really a young person anymore. like, ah I don't know what we are, just a geriatric millennial. But sort of growing up through that period of like the global financial crisis and the climate crisis and the housing crisis and COVID, we've got a mental health crisis and now cost a cost of living crisis, like this endless spiral of crises we've had to face as younger people. And then,
00:05:27
Speaker
Looking at our political leaders and their lack of vision and creativity and courage. so So that's sort of where Think Forward came about.
Connecting Economics to Daily Life
00:05:35
Speaker
It's like really about how do we talk about these issues in a big structural way, think about the long term,
00:05:42
Speaker
Think about vision, think about leadership, think about policy making to actually set our nation up for the future and set our futures up um to overcome a lot of these big structural issues we face.
00:05:55
Speaker
And so, yeah, that's that's let's Think Forward started out like a day a week volunteering and now it's my full time job and I absolutely love it. Definitely not embarrassed to be an economist in this world because we get to talk about really important things to people's lives and meet amazing people like both of you and get to talk about these really interesting topics.
Barriers to Young People's Engagement in Economics
00:06:14
Speaker
That's super interesting. And I think definitely that experience of economics and tax debate and reform feeling like a really distant thing and something that's been really tough historically as a profession to go into. it It speaks to a very common experience, I think, of a lot of young Australians who do go, oh, economics, tax, I don't really understand that. Let me steer away from it. But you're absolutely right when you say,
00:06:39
Speaker
It is just our everyday lives and we do need to be able to engage in it to actually advocate for our own economic well-being. I find personally, as well as a young person, I find those debates pretty tricky to navigate. I often find myself turning on the news and see political leaders using a lot of language, a lot of jargon that I don't understand or just failing generally to talk about the economy in a way that is accessible to young people like us. So that kind of leads me to my next question, which is, are there any insights I guess you would have having, yeah, been on this path and this journey for a few years now about how as young people we can be better advocates for our own economic wellbeing and futures?
Critical Need for Tax Reform
00:07:18
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. i guess i guess there's there's three main things that I think a lot about. The first one is is about tax. Like, tax wasn't the original focus of Think Forward. It's kind of come to prominence in recent years because we've realized how foundational it is to a lot of the issues we face, whether it's housing or climate.
00:07:38
Speaker
cost of living, wages, et cetera. um And so understanding that there there are these big structural issues that underplay a lot of the challenges that younger generations face economically.
00:07:51
Speaker
So really starting to realize that and understand that has been really important, but also talking to other younger people, whether they're just people without economics education or other young economists and just like how,
00:08:04
Speaker
critical these big systems are and how needing of reform they are because at the moment, yeah, our tax system rewards the wrong things, right? Like it's easy to buy your fourth or fifth investment property than to buy your first home and giving billions of dollars to fossil fuel polluters as opposed to investing in climate adaptation.
00:08:22
Speaker
And it goes on and on. there's all these areas where our tax system is rewarding the wrong things and denying the kind of future we want to create.
Importance of Young Voices in Economic Discussions
00:08:30
Speaker
The second thing that I'm focusing in on and sort of discovered is that this feeling that younger people are ignored in these economic and tax debates, like their values aren't sort of included. It's like, again, it's like thes this is a conversation for the older experts, not for young people. like The government set up all these committees for young people to get involved in politics and policymaking, like climate, mental health, but tax isn't one of them economics isn't one of them, like it's not a young person issue where it absolutely is. And I think you're definitely seeing that in the election with lots of younger people talking about the cost of living and housing and all these rural economic concerns.
00:09:07
Speaker
And so definitely that idea that we need to make sure that we're bringing younger voices and values into these debates. And as a young, youngish, younger person who talks like tax, like we actually do get like quite a lot of doors opening to us because it's kind of an interesting proposition, like a young person talking about tax. That's crazy.
00:09:27
Speaker
and it But it shouldn't be like we should all understand these things. But the third one is that there's this really great reserve.
Shift in Focus from Economic Literacy to Financial Success
00:09:35
Speaker
Well, not really great. There's reserve bank data that shows that enrolments in grade 12 economics has fallen by 70 percent in the last 30 years.
00:09:42
Speaker
So 30 years ago, basically every person in grade 12 did some form of economics. And now that's not something that people do. Same as civics education. It's very similar. um And so we kind of lack this broad understanding of how the economic and tax systems work and maybe that like conspiracy theory that's by design like economists are like people don't need to know about this we'll just take care of it ourselves or whether it's more of a changing in taste like people want to learn about finance and business as opposed to economics but i think that's really dangerous because i'm seeing a lot of the educational resources pitched to young people kind of like about budgeting which is really important but also tax minimization or investing or cryptocurrencies
00:10:23
Speaker
So it's kind of like our political debates are increasingly done through this frame of individual financial success, as opposed to like an understanding of like collective wellbeing.
Stigma Around Tax Conversations
00:10:34
Speaker
So like tax reform, it it's all like taxes are burned and we have to cut taxes. So I think working with younger people, it's like, how do we tell a different story about tax? And a lot of, I think a lot of the young people instinctively understand that. Like and lot of, there's a lot of sort of research. It's like young people would pay more tax if we had better health services. They can see the connection between those things. So it's not that it's the battle is lost. It's about how do we make sure that that story that we value our public services and our tax system he's is being heard by our political leaders.
00:11:05
Speaker
Those are really excellent points. I think Yeah, the two that I take away from that are, yeah, one, just starting to normalize or even de-stigmatize. I don't know when it became a stigma, but yeah, it seems to be now having these conversations around tax and economics is something that young people just shy away from because they feel either uncomfortable talking about it or there's a lack of confidence. They just
Intergenerational Wealth Inequity and Tax Critique
00:11:27
Speaker
don't understand it. And you're absolutely right when you say similar to civics and citizenship education, it it seems to have just become this thing that's increasingly devalued within our national curriculums and education system, which means we're having generations and cohorts of students who are graduating without just that basic level of economic literacy or, yeah, those skills really needed to actually advocate for themselves and
00:11:51
Speaker
their own economic security, which is really interesting. So yeah, super, super wonderful insights. I think we also said we were going to start before diving into this budget um conversation around a little bit of the economic history recently in Australia. And so...
00:12:07
Speaker
That's a wonderful lead in. I think being able to zoom out and go a little bit bigger picture, we were wondering, would you be happy to talk to us about, yeah, I guess that we've touched upon a little bit already, the tax system needing reform. What's been going on since the 90s? And how does that relate in your view to the growing problem of intergenerational like wealth inequality we're seeing here in Australia? Yeah.
00:12:28
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's a really important story. Yeah, ultimately, the tax and transfer system is how, as a society, as a nation, we collectively share our resources, like we all pay tax to contribute to the government, which then invests in public services or um things like job seeker or help for people who need it, this kind of idea that that we're all participants of citizens in this nation and we all contribute and get something back at different phases of our life.
00:12:57
Speaker
And there's lots of theories about the best way to do that. But to cut a long story short, I guess post-World War II, there's a lot of focus on building up the middle class, lots of investment in public services, um really strong nation states or the idea of government.
00:13:13
Speaker
And then from about the 90s onwards, we've had this period where there's been lots of reforms to the tax system to reward individual financial wealth.
00:13:24
Speaker
um So that's seen things like tax rates for wealth holders cut or top income tax rates cut, things like inheritance taxes, we've got rid of them, which has seen this ballooning of individual private wealth, particularly in older generations who just happen to be born at the right time.
00:13:42
Speaker
And a lot of this was really deliberate. So the Australian government wanting to allow older generations to become wealthy and pay for their own retirement. It's also part of this sort of neoliberal ideology that prioritise individual wealth creation over sort of this collective outcomes as well as I mean, John Howard basically wanting to win the boat votes of the large baby boomer cohort. But a lot of these policies we still have with us today and we're all quite familiar with them, whether it's negative gearing and the capital gains tax break for property investors, um the massive tax breaks for wealthy retirees, things like the the introduction of like the HEC system where university went from being something that's free, that's something that people pay for. so
00:14:23
Speaker
So all these policies were implemented and they and they worked. like the The wealth of older generations, particularly those who own assets has boomed. But the issue is twofold feet for younger generations.
00:14:35
Speaker
The first is that because as a young person, we don't hold much wealth, like we don't own properties, we don't own lots of shares. um Our super balances are a lot smaller. um Because of the way our tax system has been set up, that means that we can often pay more tax than wealthier people than us.
00:14:51
Speaker
So if you're just an average full-time worker paying off a hex debt, you can do the math and you're most time going to be paying more tax than like a property investor with three investment properties who can use negative gearing.
Pressures from Current Tax Policies
00:15:02
Speaker
or a multimillion dollar retiree who gets franking credits, um who pays no tax at all, and like four or five, four and five retirees pay no tax at all um in Australia.
00:15:12
Speaker
And so this means we have a situation where, yeah, as young people who are trying to set up our lives, buying a home, starting a family, getting educated, we are faced with all these higher costs, like housing, education, paying lots of tax, which is stopping our ability to set up our lives.
00:15:31
Speaker
And then secondly, we have this situation where the long-term budget position is is quite poor. Like the intergenerational report, which the government produces, um shows how there's going to be like deficits for the next 40 years.
00:15:44
Speaker
We've got things like the increasing cost of aged care, defense, ah interest repayments on a national debt, which is putting a really, ah large amount of pressure on younger taxpayers, as well as of course, the sort of a hundred billion dollars we hand out in tax breaks to wealthy people.
00:15:59
Speaker
So this whole movement means that younger people, younger workers are, yeah, paying an incredible, either to have to pay more taxes over the next 20 years, or we're going to have to reduce the amount of services we have access to, which is a really scary, dangerous place to be in And people like Ken Henry, who's the treasury secretary secretary, did our last big tax review in 2010, has been going around saying that this is an intergenerational tragedy. And so Wilford act of bastardry by older generations, like,
00:16:29
Speaker
There is a lot of evidence of how dire this situation is for younger people, but our political leaders don't act, which brings us today to today because all these things were brought in in the southern 90s, early 2000s. And then since, apart from a little bit of an effort from Bill Shorten, they largely remain in place and create this poor outcome from younger generations who were just sort of on the wrong side of that ledger, like we were just born at the wrong time in terms of that story.
00:16:58
Speaker
I've actually never heard it
Overview and Critique of Federal Budget Measures
00:17:00
Speaker
depicted that way. And I think that there's such like empowering, a but it's, you know, it's obviously that insight into why we are where we are. It's previous decisions, historic governments that have made, that have been more in favor of older generations and building up their wealth and, you know, sort of forgetting about the younger generations and what that means for them. And ultimately we're now faced with the burden of all of these um structural issues and yeah I think just understanding the history has just given me insight as a young person as to like why this needs to change and in you know like my place in history and and and how it does feel unfair and I do have reason to be frustrated um but before we sort of get into all of that I kind of wanted to turn our attention to the federal budget because obviously
00:17:49
Speaker
This is where we are today and it it directly affects us. So obviously it's introduced several key measures such as tax cuts, energy and student debt relief and education support. So clearly there's some good stuff going on there and some not so good stuff. So we could you talk briefly about some of the things that you were glad to see and how they might in fact help improve those economic well-being for us as the next generation as well?
00:18:16
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. It's, um yeah, there was some good things in the budget, it definitely around like injecting more cash into Medicare. There's some really great stuff around childcare, cheaper medicines, particularly that sort of focus on on women's health as well.
00:18:31
Speaker
um the The school funding, so there's agreements with the states to fully fund public schools. Like there's some good classic labour stuff in there, health and education, which is really encouraging.
00:18:42
Speaker
But strangely, a lot of the things that were announced kind of point to the issues that I kind of really care about, like that short termism over long term structural reform, like the the tax cuts and like the student debt relief and the energy supplements also to speak to that, like You can talk to sort of any policy expert and advocacy group who works in tax, like right from your sort of your ACOSSes who are supporting the most disadvantaged right through to the Business Council and the Australian Industry Group. Like everyone is crying out for structural tax reform for all these different reasons from like improving productivity of businesses through to like raising job keepers so people don't live in poverty.
00:19:22
Speaker
Like there's so much that needs to be done, but then the government gives us a tiny tax break, like $5 a week, which isn't reform. Like it just feels like they're trying to like buy our votes before an election.
00:19:34
Speaker
Similarly, like things like the like the energy relief supplement, which they're going to extend is like, we are one of the world's largest exporters of energy, whether that's fossil fuels or clean energy, like our sun and our wind resources.
00:19:48
Speaker
Yet we pay a fortune for energy. We're forced to spend all this taxpayer money on giving out supplements to ah households to deal with that, which then ultimately just flows to the energy providers who are making billions of dollars.
00:20:02
Speaker
And there's like, you can go see the Australian Institute or Punters Politics, who will talk endlessly about this kind of stuff, like how our tax system is is rigged towards these big fossil fuel companies as as opposed to households. And that's kind of a, then we have this budget response, which just perpetuates the problem and doesn't tackle the big structural issues. And and same with the hex debt relief. Like we've been calling for hex relief for a while because we have this situation where people have 50, 60K worth of debt. They're paying it off for 10, 15 years. Makes it's it harder to buy a home. It's harder to start a family.
00:20:35
Speaker
And that's just completely ridiculous. Like education is way too expensive. So they're giving these the 20% reduction in debt if they win the election. But like new students or current students are still being slugged with these massive hex fees. Like they haven't fixed the problem.
00:20:51
Speaker
And it's just, you could like almost go line by line about how these all seem to be short term political fixes rather than the big structural economic reforms that we need to set ourselves up for the future. And I found the budget deeply frustrating, just like the previous five or six have been deeply frustrating. And they're frustrating to a lot of people, I think, because I can see that's all seemingly about politics, not about what's actually best for our future.
00:21:16
Speaker
You're so right. It was very much in my eyes when I was sitting down watching, I thought, oh, this does shape up to what people, I guess, they were trying to set expectations. It was a very, as people say, bread and butter, classic labor budget. It had things like those injections of extra cash into Medicare, those increased subsidies for childcare, cheaper medicines, I guess a commitment to fund more public schools. But you're totally right.
00:21:39
Speaker
Whilst there does seem to be that broad focus from the government on helping people with cost of living, there was that lack of overall attention to the structural supports need to actually lift up those young people trying to start their lives. And as you say, I guess we hear a lot.
00:21:56
Speaker
I find it really interesting to hear our treasurer, Jim Chalmers, talk about quite often now about this idea of needing to build shared prosperity. But if this is really true, then I guess we're wondering what about things like actual support for student HECS debts, you know, lifting the job seeker rate?
00:22:16
Speaker
what What are they doing to bring down these high rental and and purchase costs of homes? Or what are they doing to shift the inequality in the tax system so young people can actually get a fair go that we talk about?
00:22:27
Speaker
um
Need for Courageous Political Leadership
00:22:28
Speaker
To me, that did, yeah, a lot of that seemed like pretty glaring oversight in the pre-election budget, which, yeah, I guess would have been an opportunity being a pre-election budget to actually demonstrate that they're genuine and they're serious about about prosperity actually being shared across generations um so I'd just be interested yeah in your thoughts on what were some of those things that were missing what if we were seeing a government or political leadership that was actually serious about meaningfully supporting all generations to access shared economic equality what what kind of leadership would we have seen in this budget
00:23:04
Speaker
Yeah, it's, um yeah, what what I've been saying is like, it would have been nice exactly you said, just like, take this opportunity of a pre-election budget to show some sort of leadership and vision. Because that's, I mean, that's what people are kind of crying out for. Like, what does the future look like in 20 years? How do we get there?
00:23:23
Speaker
What are the big structural reforms required? And that just seems like there's a complete vacuum of that kind of leadership in our politics. So yeah, definitely in terms of our or sort of my tax reform kind of space, like some sort of process in the next parliament to bring all these groups together, your ACOSs, 3D Business Council, people representing younger generations, people representing self-funded retirees.
00:23:46
Speaker
Like what is the future of our country and how do we reset our tax system to support that? And courage is required because...
00:23:58
Speaker
The problem with tax reform that makes it really difficult is it involves trade-offs and there's winners and losers. If you're going to increase taxes somewhere or you're going rein in things like negative gearing or franking credits, like people will lose money in one sense, but then they might get by public services on the other side. But trying make that argument is really hard and requires leadership.
00:24:22
Speaker
um And so instead of doing that, our treasurer, he does like to talk a big game and he writes the occasional article about thinking about the future and and what's required ah sort of stepped away from actually doing any of that work.
00:24:36
Speaker
Yeah, it is ultimately just, as you said before, those tinkering around the margins, the short term political fixes that don't actually address the root causes of the intergenerational wealth inequality we're seeing.
00:24:48
Speaker
One other question
Measures for Long-term Economic Security
00:24:49
Speaker
I had, I, yeah, you mentioned it a little bit earlier and before, was about the long term structural position, i guess, of the budget and how we can ensure that we're Yeah, securing ourselves to be able to withstand future global economic shocks. I'd be wondering, yeah, a little bit about in addition to the tax reforms that we've spoken about, is there anything else that you can see us doing to improve the long-term structural, I guess, fiscal economic position of the budget to ensure that we're securitized against things, you know, when we see shocks like we've had the global...
00:25:21
Speaker
tarashed from Trump in the last week or just a few years ago, Russia's invasion of Ukraine that's set in to send the kind of global economy into disarray really. And we seemed really unprepared to deal with that.
00:25:31
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Like it is, it's a really risky position to be in, to be leaving these the budget and the way it is to younger generations. Like climate change is gonna cost us an absolute fortune. Like how do we pay for adaptation the impact it's gonna have on our economy and like the next 10, 20, 30 years? Like it's not, like those impacts are already happening.
00:25:52
Speaker
And so yeah, it's a really, there's two sides of the debate in this. Like do budget deficits matter? And I think because the framing is that our politicians and and main economists use is that budget deficits are bad.
00:26:06
Speaker
debt is bad because you've got repay the debt plus interest, then if you're leaving that to young and future generations, they're the one who then have to pay for the things that older generations overspent on or or or did or didn't pay enough tax.
00:26:20
Speaker
um And so... It's about like lots of people want us to tackle that issue. And so the obvious ones to me are like those really hard, difficult decisions. Like are we spending too much money on handouts to wealthy people? And I think we are. Like that's a lot of money there which we could say we are giving too much money to this one group of people. Instead, we should be investing in young people.
00:26:46
Speaker
um Lots of other organisations will talk about how we undertax our fossil fuel resources compared to say like Norway, which has this huge sovereign wealth fund and free university education for the young people because they tax those things properly.
00:26:58
Speaker
And there's, yeah, there's lots of things to think about. And I know like the coalition might talk a lot about budget repair, but their focus is like on cutting public service jobs and finding efficiency as their sort of solution.
00:27:13
Speaker
Whereas they don't seem to sort recognise or sort of want to take on in sort of any revenue raising measures, which is the yeah the sort of the fossil fuels, the wealthy tax breaks, those kinds of things. So i don't think either major party have a really good answer for this sort long term structural issue that we face.
00:27:31
Speaker
Because,
Think Forward's Initiatives on Wealth Inequity
00:27:32
Speaker
yeah, again, they don't want to take on this hard conversation. Yeah, absolutely right. I think that, yeah, it comes back to just this notion of courage that we were touching upon before, right? Like, it does, it seems to be that we're starting to have these conversations around, like, we know what the issues are, we know that there are structural problems that we need to address, and both sides seem to attack the other for not being able to address them. But on both sides, we also see kind of major reluctance or hesitance to again, actually be emboldened and demonstrate the leadership that we need to address these and start talking about measures like you've mentioned tax reform, um or yeah, more serious revenue raising, revenue raising measures to actually fix the debts that we are seeing.
00:28:16
Speaker
So that's really, really interesting. Yeah, week in Australia we actually have we we have this intergenerational report, which other people I talk to around the world are like, it's crazy. You have this report that comes out every two or three years, which lays out the position of the budget over the next 40 years. Like this amazing document that we have that the Treasury produces.
00:28:36
Speaker
It's been saying the same thing since the first one in 2001, yet no one's really acted. And that's just, it's really interesting how ah politicians have been able to keep kicking this can down the road.
00:28:47
Speaker
No, it's a super interesting measure, I think. And it's interesting because we were talking about Ken Henry before and I remember one of the things that he often says about it is it's quite ironic that it's called the intergenerational report, but there's actually very few things in it or about it that are intergenerational and it doesn't do a very good job but at actually analysing the broader sort of contributing factors to economic wellbeing. It goes far beyond things like GDP or just yeah, the wealth that you have in your own pocket, it's to do with things like climate change, like, yeah, advances in technology and, yeah, all of those other, I guess, factors that would contribute to one's own economic wellbeing but seem to be broadly neglected in this report that comes out, out yeah, however, so many years that you mentioned, which... Yeah, it's yeah it's definitely very narrowly focused on the budget and the position of the budget where there are so many other things that
00:29:45
Speaker
as you listed, that will impact our nation and our lives over the next 30, 40, 50, 100 years that we should also be considering in our policymaking. I guess, yeah, to move the conversation, hopefully, maybe in a more positive direction slightly. I know there are so many issues um that we can talk about um end on
Youth Issues in the Current Election
00:30:03
Speaker
end. But yeah, think forward. Tell us bit a bit more about what you're doing, the campaigns and projects you've got in the pipeline at the moment. I know you're super passionate personally about addressing this growing problem of intergenerational wealth inequity. Is there anything that you see you're excited about with the work that you're doing at the moment to be able to address this issue?
00:30:21
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. it's been a It's been a really interesting three or four months with the budget and the election campaign. um I'm sure you two have both noticed as well, like young people being talked about a lot.
00:30:34
Speaker
Like the Prime Minister's been out there saying like he knows that intergenerational equity is this massive issue and he's like young people aren't getting a fair crack. um Peter Dutton's been lugging his poor like 21-year-old son around to press conferences all week trying to like we know what's happening with young people and like you have that liberal candidate in Melbourne, like pretending to be a renter and the tills are talking about hex debts and like young people and the greens, obviously like there's,
00:30:59
Speaker
Like people are definitely calling this like the youth or the young person election. So that's a really interesting space we find ourselves in and definitely a lot different to when we started Think Forward, which was like 2018, 2019. It was like Scott Morrison and Malcolm Turnbull. And it's like the the story was like, you just got to work harder to buy a home, get a better job, eat less avocado toast.
00:31:20
Speaker
yeah Yeah, working hard. That'll secure your economic future. Yeah. So I think it's it's like it's quite exciting that we've gone beyond that now. Like I don't think a politician would dare say something like that.
Think Forward's Wealth Tax Campaign
00:31:30
Speaker
I think there is definitely recognition that there's a lot of problems economically for all Australia's younger generations, which is really great.
00:31:38
Speaker
It doesn't mean that i'm that we can be happy with the policy responses, but I guess at least it's on the agenda. So that's a good start. And sort of feeding into that, with we've launched our Tax Wealth Not Work campaign, which is kind of about what i was talking about before. it's It's like we need to start taxing our wealth and our resources a lot more to fund our public services and spending on infrastructure and and restoring equity to our tax system so someone who's got millions of dollars isn't paying less tax than a young person who's got their first job. Like that's just a ridiculous outcome for a country which is meant to pride itself on like,
00:32:15
Speaker
the idea of the fair go. And it's been really encouraging. We've got a lot of support from like lots of Australia's leading economists. We've got this open letter, which people have been signing like hundreds of younger and and older Australians too, sort of getting in touch and signing the open letter and sort of this idea that our economic settings are holding us back and we need to fix them. And it feels like the pressure is increasing on our political leaders to act in the next Parliament or, I mean, the very latest, the one after that.
Encouragement for Youth Advocacy
00:32:48
Speaker
Otherwise, i'll I'll quit and go live somewhere on a farm and hide because we failed. um But yeah, I feel like the the momentum is growing and like I've talked to like older economists who have been around for like 40 years and have kind of lived through this entire period. And like my entire working life has been about like fighting back against the forces of like capital and corporations and the environmental destruction. And like the opportunity for us as younger people is now like economic systems tend to last 40 or 50 years.
00:33:20
Speaker
This one is coming to an end. What comes next? We're getting into positions of power. We can lead what comes next and what the new system is and rethink these things and how to use technology and how do we use climate change to redesign our cities to be clean and green. Like this could be a really exciting time.
00:33:41
Speaker
or it could go the other way and could we could buy into this narrative that we are all selfish people who only look after our own self-interest and we slash taxes and we blame immigrants and this sort of really dark pathway which we're seeing elsewhere so it's exciting but a ah scary time in history i think And look, I'm um the eternal optimist. I think that it's really encouraging that so much of the conversation is centered around young people and we are seeming to have more of a seat at the table. Our opinions, our values, our concerns are being listened to somewhat. And I think, yeah, you're right. Like time will tell whether or not that's implemented and and things are acted upon. But...
00:34:25
Speaker
I'm really encouraged to be part of conversations like these with young people leading the the charge around like let's actually affect change because the pendulum is swinging, the balance of power is turning, there seems to be a shift and we seem to be, you know, like we can only do what we can and I think we're all on the right side of history by engaging in these conversations and by asking these sorts of questions and by demanding more from our political
Advice for Young Australians
00:34:49
Speaker
leaders. So I'm taking the this the side that things will be okay for all of us. um At least that's what I have to tell myself to sleep easy at night. But I guess, um Tom, from with your wisdom and your insight, I would love for you to have a direct conversation for young Australians out there who are feeling the burden and the pressures of of of that inter intergenerational bargain. They're not feeling like they've got a fair go.
00:35:13
Speaker
Do you have any advice for them about how they can get empowered and advocate for their wellbeing and and for their future? Yeah, absolutely. Like, it's not Like, it's... not easy like it's Like if you're struggling to get by, you've got a big mortgage or your rent's really high or you're sort of working like two jobs, like it's really hard to engage in these sort of big issues because you're sort of focused on getting through week to week.
00:35:38
Speaker
And that definitely places younger people at a great disadvantage compared to, say, rich boomers who can rock up to like a council meeting and like scream about the new apartment development they want to block. Like there's definitely a ah time and power imbalance there.
00:35:52
Speaker
But unfortunately, when it comes to tax and economics, it's it's so much about values and vision that yeah we can't just write a report and say these are the solutions. Like it is a struggle. It's a struggle of ideas and it's a struggle of power.
00:36:08
Speaker
And by younger generations getting involved and being educated and understanding these things, it shows to our politicians that we care that we're angry.
00:36:18
Speaker
and
Courage and Support in Advocacy
00:36:19
Speaker
that they need to sort of act for our longer term interests and kind of we need to act as that balance against like corporate power or the wealth and power of older generations to have a seat at the table and really put ourselves there because our political leaders have sort of got by the last 10, 20 years on saying that these issues aren't young people's issues and not involving us in these conversations.
00:36:43
Speaker
And so, yeah, I mean, that's what we're trying to do at Think Forward, right? Like using our, this opportunity that we have as sort of a little organization to sort of say that tax is really important to our day to day lives. We need to be having these conversations. We need to be talking to our political leaders and giving them the courage to act because it's really important and it's really urgent.
00:37:05
Speaker
I'm ah just on a quick side note before we close. I'm reading a book called um The Courage to be Disliked. And it talks so much about the courage to if you want to really, you know, follow your values and your vision, then you're going to ruffle some feathers. And I think that's sort of the the position that we have to sometimes take is that, yes, like change is difficult and reform is is hard and uncomfortable. We have to be faced with it.
00:37:27
Speaker
with the decisions of the past and could be confronted with what that means for all of us. But if we all each take, you know, our personal share of responsibility and do what we can and not give in, um i think that the future is bright and hopeful. And you've certainly, you know, brought that encouragement and that optimism to me and this whole entire conversation. So, Tom, thank you so much for sharing. And, yeah, you've read you've made the conversation around tax seem interesting.
00:37:51
Speaker
ah oddly interesting. Like I've been engaged this whole time. I hope everybody else has as well. And we've loved having you. um And where can people find you if and they want to do do a bit more research on Think Forward? um Yeah. And just maybe one last thing to close on. Like we like when we talk to the media and stuff, they like to package all this up as like intergenerational warfare. Like we're trying to argue with like older generations and boomers versus millennials and Gen Z, but we get so many messages and so much support from older Australians who can see these exact same issues and who want to help. So it's ah it's a cross-generational project about the future. It's not just younger people like me getting cranky at the small minority of older people who use their power and probably privilege to
Getting Involved with Think Forward
00:38:33
Speaker
block change. Like it is ah it's a cross-generational project for sure.
00:38:37
Speaker
So, yeah, you can definitely find us. Like we have um our Instagram page, thinkforward underscore Oz. And then, yeah, our website is thinkforward.org.au. And we've got all kinds of cool stuff going on. We've got an educational program.
00:38:49
Speaker
Check out our campaign. We'll have some events later in the year. um Yeah, it's exciting work. And we love to talk ah to others who want to get involved and have other ideas too.
Final Thoughts on Youth Engagement in Policy
00:39:06
Speaker
you
00:39:10
Speaker
If I was to take one thing away from this episode, it's that economics and tax debates shouldn't feel like some distant, faraway conversation for young Australians. They affect us all on a deep level, and we need to be talking about these things more often if we want to advocate for our own economic well-being.
00:39:27
Speaker
And it's all so great having young champions like Tom leading the charge and really showing us that economic policy and conversations around tax and tax reform aren't spaces to be intimidated by, but instead are spaces for us as young as Aussies to really lead in so that we can change, affect, influence, and see a better outcome because our future matters.
00:39:49
Speaker
What we inherit really does matter and we shouldn't be bystanders. We should be making an active stance and designing for our wellbeing. But for now, that's all we've got time for today.
00:40:02
Speaker
Once again, if you liked the episode, leave us five stars on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, wherever you listen in. And don't forget to sign our petition for a wellbeing of future generations act in Australia.
00:40:13
Speaker
If you'd like to get involved, give us a follow on socials at for our future campaign and at foundations for tomorrow. And you can always send us an email at hello at foundations for tomorrow.org.
00:40:25
Speaker
I'm Anna Bezun. I'm Clare Beaton-Wells. We'll be back shortly with another episode breaking down what's in policy and politics for you. Bye!