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Ant-Man and the Wasp (2018)
348 Plays2 years ago
Comic fan Zach Woliner joins Perry this week to discuss 2018's Ant-Man and the Wasp. We discuss the changes from the comics, how this film compares to both its predecessor and sequel, and how underrated it is in retrospect.
Follow Zach on Twitter and TikTok.
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This episode is brought to you by BlendJet. Use my special link, zen.ai/supercinemapod12, to save 12% at blendjet.com. The discount will be applied at checkout!
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Transcript
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Guest Introduction: Zach Walliner
00:01:59
Speaker
You know what? You're right. This isn't true serum. Because I don't feel anything. That was a lie. I did feel something. This is true serum. There's no such thing. OK. OK, OK. I'm going to make this release for you, Luis. OK. Where is Scott?
00:02:20
Speaker
Oh, see, that's complicated. Because when I first met Scotty, he was in a bad place. And I'm not talking about Cell Block D. His wife had just filed for divorce. And I was like, damn, homie, she dumped me when you're on lockup? And he was like, yeah, I know. I thought I was going to be with her forever. But now I'm all alone. And I was like, damn, homie, you know what? You got to chin up, because you'll find a new partner. But you know what? I'm Luis. And he says, you know what? I'm Scotty. And we're going to be best friends. OK, hold on. Hold on.
00:02:39
Speaker
I like a good story as much as the next person, but what in the hell does this have to do with where Scott Lang is? I'm getting there, I'm getting there. You put a dime in him, you gotta let the whole song play out. He's like a human jukebox. Oh my, well at least I had a jukebox at the restaurant. Yeah, only played Morrissey. And if anybody ever complained, you'd be like, oh, not the Busta Maas. You know, Chicanos, we call them Maas. Then adios. What can I say? You know, we relate to his melancholy ballads, you know?
00:03:02
Speaker
Lang. Right, right, right, right, right, right. So anyway, Scotty gets out of jail and he starts working for heck. That's when he met Hope. And Hope's all like, I want nothing to do with you. Look at my hairdo. I'm all business. And then Scotty's like, you know what, girl? My heart is all broken, and I'll probably never find love again. But damn if I want to kiss you. But then you fast forward, and they're all like into each other, right? And then Scotty's like, you know what? I can't tell you this, but I'm going to go trash an airport with Captain America. And then she said, I can't believe you split like that. Smell your litter, dummy.
00:03:25
Speaker
So Scotty goes on house arrest, and he won't admit it, but his heart is all like, damn. I thought Hope could have been my new true partner, but I blew it. But fate brought him back together, and then Hope's heart is all like, I'm worried that I can't trust him, and he's gonna screw up again and ruin everything. And then my heart is all like that fancy raspberry filling represents the company's red, and we're days away from going out of business. Oh! Out of business? Days away? Damn truth, sir! And you know, I was trying to protect you guys. I swear to God. You know, I was trying to be a good boss, but we're broke. And the carpenter's our last hope, and if we don't show up, we're done. That's terrible bossing.
00:03:53
Speaker
Damn, bro! That's on me. That's on me. Hey! Enough. I'm going to ask you one more time. Where is Scott Lang? I've been trying to tell you. He's in a tricky spot, emotionally speaking. Emotionally speaking? Well, where is Scott Lang? Literally speaking! Oh, the woods. The woods?
00:04:16
Speaker
Welcome to Superhero Cinephiles Podcast. I'm your host, Perry Constantine, and welcome to a new guest of the show, and that is Zach Walliner. Zach, how are you doing today? I'm all right. How are you, Perry? I'm doing pretty good. So what I like to do with new guests is to give you a chance to introduce yourself to the audience, tell them about who you are, what you do, all that kind of stuff. Okay, sure.
00:04:39
Speaker
I am, hmm, where to start?
Comic Book Collecting and Digital Transition
00:04:44
Speaker
My day job is boring, I have a desk job doing tech support, but I'm passionate for things like comics, comic movies, video games.
00:04:57
Speaker
cartoons, stop-motion animation, and puppetry. Right now, I'm actually in the process of trying to get a business off the ground doing magic puppet shows, so trying to do that. I like entertaining and entertaining kids, and especially puppetry. I've been doing puppetry for a while now, but trying to take it further, and that's where my real passion lies. But yeah, as far as
00:05:18
Speaker
comics and nerd stuff. I mean I've been into that forever. I think X-Men the 90s cartoon really kicked things into high gear and then that led to reading X-Men comics and that led reading Marvel comics overall and then that led to collecting Marvel action figures and here I am like 600 plus Marvel Legends deep when I thought I was just gonna collect like the 90s Jim Lee X-Men group initially and that did not last.
00:05:44
Speaker
and um, yeah now the mcu is a whole thing so I go see all those in the theater and uh It's quite a time to be uh, you know a nerd a geek Yeah, very much. So um, you answered my next question that was going to be like, how did you get into comics and all that? So, um, are you still mostly uh an x-men guy? Have you branched out to other stuff or is x-men still kind of like your your core thing? well, um
00:06:11
Speaker
Right now, I don't actively collect new comics. There came to be a point where just financially and space-wise, it was taken up too much, especially after I got married and then I had kids. I have two young kids.
00:06:25
Speaker
and uh... then even after i started moving over to digital in the marvel app uh... but even then just cost wise i couldn't justify it anymore but i am a marvel unlimited subscriber so that's an app that's like a back catalog for people who don't know and they have like thousands of
00:06:43
Speaker
previous marvel titles and they get like the new ones six months late i think so you can still follow but just be behind if you want to but i've lost track of like all the the big titles there i was following spider-man for a while because i you know i thought okay he's still you know he's still he's spider-man he's still you know the big you know marvel guy and they told some interesting stories and but yeah it's um it's been a while since i've read any new uh marvel books but i'm enjoying going in the back catalog a lot what did i do these days is
00:07:11
Speaker
if I see a piece of Marvel media, whether it's a TV show or a movie, especially if it's a character I'm not familiar with, then I go, okay, I like that, and let me go check out their background. So I'll go to the first appearance or look up a good run. After the Werewolf by Night Halloween special on Disney+, I dove into Man-thing, and I read basically every appearance of his I could find. I read all of his solo runs and appearances here and there.
00:07:41
Speaker
I just got really into that character. I mean, it's he's something else. He doesn't speak at all. He's just this like lurking mush monster in the swamp in Florida. And, you know, there's a lot of repetition in the stories when they describe him. And it's like, oh, those who know fear burn at the man things touch. And, you know, that that phrase always comes up and they just talk about him. And he basically he's sort of like this silent protector. He kind of helps the innocent. There's, you know, it's a horror book, the initial one, basically. So there are some crazy things there.
00:08:10
Speaker
Sad things deaths and this and that but he kind of usually he's driven by emotion So he can he can feel bad emotion and that drives him crazy and especially fear So then he goes after people to try to silence that fear because it just it just drives him crazy and so then like once that's done he kind of goes back in the swamp and does his thing but
00:08:30
Speaker
I got really deep into him and I actually for the holidays, you know, over last year for Hanukkah, I actually, my wife got me a man thing shirt. It's funny. I guess it's, it's the crazy, you know, all seeing web where like it was suggesting a man thing t-shirt from T public on my Facebook feed. And it's not like I actively was posting about him, but somehow it knew somehow my phone heard me and then my Facebook was on my phone and then on Facebook on my work computer.
00:08:57
Speaker
Somehow they're all spying on us all the time but it got me a shirt got me a cool shirt and you know and then I went in my bins in my basement I found my Marvel Legends action figures of him and you know sometimes I play with my daughter she's eight so you know we get a sort of figures in play but.
00:09:15
Speaker
But yeah, so I was going off on the man thing tension, but in general, I see one of the movies or TV shows and then I go, okay, let me go back and look. And I've done that with several things. As the original Homecoming Spider-Man movie came out, I started at Amazing Fantasy 15 and then I was reading every issue of Amazing from there. And I've gotten
00:09:37
Speaker
you know i mean i was sporadic i've been on and off as i would go off on a different character from something else i saw but i've i've gotten into like the nineties you know from there with every issue of every one of amazing up to that point you know sometimes i'd read one of the side books i'm not doing every issue of spectacular and etc but if there was a storyline where you had to read every issue i would kinda do those but yeah so that's where i'm at just checking out old stuff enjoying the back catalog
Marvel's Digital Strategies and Streaming
00:10:03
Speaker
when you get into the 90s stuff that gets different because that's that's when they did kind of the Superman thing was doing in the 90s to where it's like a story starts and amazing and then part two isn't spectacular and then part three isn't and it's a it's a whole thing there yeah I hear a lot of what you're saying like it I was doing
00:10:21
Speaker
digital got me back into into comics and for about a year or two I was you know buying new stuff every week buying the new issues on comicsology but then I got to a point where I'm just like it because the storytelling it you know it's so you know it's part one of whatever however many parts and when you're reading so many comics I would got to the point where I'd get to the next issue like new issue would come out I buy it I download I'd be and I'd start reading it and I'd be like
00:10:49
Speaker
wait a minute what the hell happened last time and I have to go back and double check and it's and plus the cost and so I just ended up switching all to digital trades now and I pretty much only wait for them to come on sale.
00:11:02
Speaker
marbles great with that like they've got tons of their stuff comes out like very quickly and they have sales like very very frequently and like discounting a lot like i've gotten a lot of trades for like three four bucks um dc it takes them a bit longer and it takes them even longer than that for any of their trades to go on sale like they'll have
00:11:22
Speaker
It'll be like three months or so after the storyline is finished for trade comes out and it'll be like another six months before it comes down in price so so I'm a little bit slower on DC with that but but Marvel's been really easy to keep up with.
00:11:36
Speaker
When I tried the Marvel Unlimited app for a little bit, but I ended up, I got to a point where my to read pile on Comixology became so big that I'm like, let me finish these first. And then after I whittle down the pile, then maybe I'll try Marvel Unlimited again. And that was a few years ago and it hasn't happened yet because I keep adding more stuff to the pile.
00:11:58
Speaker
Yeah, we live in an age where there's too much content. You can't keep up. You do your best, but you hear about people with the latest shows and stuff. I don't know what this show is
Family Life and Pop Culture
00:12:11
Speaker
and everyone's talking about it. I haven't checked out The Last of Us. It's the talk of the town and I'm sure it's good, but it wasn't something I had to dive into. Me and my wife usually settle down for the night. We watch shows right now.
00:12:22
Speaker
Actually we've been going for months and months now going through the netflix marvel shows cuz she didn't watch him with me on my initial run when they came out so it was after like home. No way home when you know matt murdoch showed up and then hawkeye with kingpin showing up so she saw those things and then you know we like let me show you.
00:12:41
Speaker
you know, she got interested and it's like, okay, well, let me show you the Daredevil show that these actors are from where they played these characters. And we went from there. And so then I think we binged all three Daredevil seasons first, because, you know, I think that's the cream of the crop with the Netflix. And then we kind of, I think then we went to defenders. So, you know, he's still in there and stuff, but then we kind of went backwards. So we already got to know those characters and defenders a little bit. And then we went from that backwards to like release order bouncing back and forth between shows. And right now,
00:13:11
Speaker
we're on jessica jones season three so it's the final season of all the netflix and we we just we started the first episode of iron fist two but we just decided to skip it you know getting through the first season of iron fist was bad enough and i know i felt the the second one was somewhat of approval improvement but that's like a low bar and we were just not into it i'm like i'm not gonna put you through it i don't i don't need to see the season two again so we're in uh we're into season three of jessica jones and uh
00:13:39
Speaker
yeah so that you know like I said we always settle down with a show and you know those are the shows we're on right now and then usually she goes to sleep before me um she just gets tired sooner than I do and then that's when I open up unlimited and then I read comics until I you know kind of ready to pass out very similar situation in our house we've got we got two young kids too um my daughter's uh two my son is about
00:14:05
Speaker
almost nine months now. Yeah, so very young kids running around. So we'll try to watch some stuff. Usually we'll watch a movie or something at night. Every now and then we'll watch some TV shows. My wife's still on maternity leave, so she has more time to watch TV stuff throughout the day. Yeah, that's the nice thing about living in a country that's not America is you have decent maternity leave.
00:14:28
Speaker
But when and then, you know, she'll usually turn in early, she'll usually go to sleep with my daughter, like they'll, they'll sit and we've got this, this Disney dream switch it's called we just got where it projects like the stories up on the ceiling. And so it's a it's very easy for her to fall asleep to and my wife will fall asleep with her watching that and then I'll just stay up. I'll watch like TV show I want want to watch or
00:14:52
Speaker
or something else and they're all read comics and that's so I usually have time to read like you know I get like an hour or two maybe less of reading time and night and which is which is why my TBR pile is so big because it's just not enough time to get through it all
Physical vs Digital Media
00:15:07
Speaker
Yeah, even watching on the note of watching with kids, you know, I started with my daughter watching stuff that I, you know, I mean, I have, you know, in an era of streaming, I still have like a big DVD cabinet because I'm a believer in physical media. You know, things come and go on there. You can never trust when a license runs out or whatever decision between companies happens and you lose something for good because it's some like rare show that's not available elsewhere.
00:15:33
Speaker
So I still have plenty of those. And I have DVDs and Blu-rays that I've had for years. Some of them are still in the shrink wrap because I just didn't have a reason to watch them. I didn't have someone to watch them with. So I'm not going to just randomly like, oh, let me find a free time and sit down and watch this episode of Pokemon. You know, so, you know, now I started her with, you know, we watched some of the 90s X-Men series, some of the 90s Spider-Man. We watched some Pokemon. We started Power Rangers.
00:15:59
Speaker
Um, but then, you know, she kind of wasn't, you know, still doing, and then obviously she grows up and she finds her own things, but you know, I've learned some new shows too, and there's some good stuff out there today, but I still want to, you know, get back to that, you know, because, you know, she's my oldest and I didn't know whether I was going to have another child or ever have a son or not. So, you know, I don't, I don't adhere to those strict, you know, gender stereotypes. And I'm like, you know, I can share my.
00:16:22
Speaker
you know more typically male associated hobbies and likes with her and you know she's still girl she's still a girly girl but you know she likes this stuff and uh so yeah i like watching with her i just got to convince her to let me again i just want to you know let's watch one show a night before you go to bed you know so i'm still working on that to get back into that
00:16:44
Speaker
Yeah, very much agree. I had the same situation with my daughter. Wasn't sure if I was going to have another kid. And even now that I have a son, I still want to get my daughter into that stuff too.
00:16:55
Speaker
But it's just a matter of, you know, like you said, finding the time. And I'm also a believer in physical media. I've got a Plex server. So I just rip all my discs and then I put them on the Plex server because it's so much easier to access that way. But I'm looking at the Plex now and you look that up. I still have like 300 movies that have not been watched. So that shows you how much I have. That's just again, it just it just accumulates and it's just it can be tough to find time. So I totally feel you on that.
00:17:23
Speaker
You also talked about man thing and we had done and I started reading those two I'd recently picked up on one of the sales the epic collections so I got all the Steve Gerber stuff and I dug into the first one a little bit because It hasn't been released yet on the feed but you know by the time this comes out it will already be now but we did an episode on the the man thing movie from the early 2000s, which I don't know if you've seen that or not, but if you haven't gotten that far
00:17:53
Speaker
I'm sorry? You're aware of it. Okay, yeah. I would not recommend watching it. I would not recommend it. That's my understanding from what I've heard. Yeah, it's like, it's pretty much a man thing just in name only. So it's you have none of the same type of atmosphere. But one of the things you said, this is just a brief aside, then we'll get into the movie we're talking about today is that repetition in those older comic books that I mean, you being an X-Men fan, you probably definitely got familiar with that because the
00:18:23
Speaker
all the catchphrases that they use to kind of explain the characters for new readers. They get really old when you're doing a binge read. My favorite one is Psylocke's, the focus totality of my psychic abilities or something like that. I don't know if even I remember any of that, but I'll take your word for it. Yeah, you go back and you read, especially like the Claremont stuff. There's a lot of repetition in those.
00:18:50
Speaker
But anyway, today we are talking about a Marvel movie.
Ant-Man and Marvel Cinematic Universe
00:18:55
Speaker
We're talking about Ant-Man and the Wasp, the sequel to Ant-Man, the second movie in the trilogy. And I thought, you gave me a list of stuff to talk about, and I thought this was a good one to talk about in light of Quantum Mania coming out fairly recently. So what's your history with Ant-Man or with this movie in particular? Let's start there.
00:19:18
Speaker
Well, I mean, as far as the comics, I'm not especially familiar more than the basics of him being a founding Avenger and a little bit of stuff and then Hank and then Scott. I think I read Scott's first issue. Maybe it was after the first movie. And then I read Avengers Disassembled, so I remember when he died in that. But as far as comic reading,
00:19:43
Speaker
You know, I mainly just know them in the connection to the Avengers. I don't really I haven't like dug deep into the solo stuff or like, you know, the Silver Age origin stuff with him and Wasp. But, you know, then with with the movies, I obviously saw the first one.
00:20:00
Speaker
And then, you know, I saw this one and then I recently saw, you know, the third one. And, um, yeah, I mean, I've enjoyed them. I, I, I don't see where the hate is for quantum mania. I mean, everyone's entitled to their opinion. I can get maybe if there's certain like rational critical points, like, okay, maybe, but like, it sounds like people were just really, really down on it. And I, I just didn't get it.
00:20:22
Speaker
No, I felt the exact same way. I mean, I saw it late just because, again, two kids, it's tough to find time to go to the theater. And when I saw it, I had some of the same reaction as you did. I'm like, you know, I don't get all the hate. I think part of it is just that
00:20:40
Speaker
Marvel has become so big now and it's just, it seems like it's the trendy thing to shit on something just because it's popular. I think there's something about that going into it. And also the fact that it's, I mean, I will say it's not, I didn't enjoy it as much as I enjoyed Ant-Man and Ant-Man and the Wasp, so it was definitely probably the weakest of the trilogy for me. I miss the other, the human characters and all that.
00:21:05
Speaker
But it was still a fun movie, and I loved that they tried to get weird with it, and they swung for the fences, and that was fun for me. Yeah, yeah, I hear you. When I'm watching it, and since it's been years since this movie came out at the time, I kind of forgot about those characters until I rewatched the second one last night, just to be fresh for this. I get it, because I could see they were a fun part of, they felt like part of that, you know,
00:21:33
Speaker
that little mini world of within the mcu of this is scott's world and he's got he's dealing with his ex-wife and her new guy and cassie and balancing that out and then he's got his pals from you know the prison and they're running that company and they're like i don't know if they're even like mentioned and obviously cassie's a player in it but otherwise i i don't know if they even even get like a dialogue line to like write him under like sometimes they'll do that in these movies they'll just like have a quick line in there to like explain away like i think they did that with
00:22:02
Speaker
Betty Ross and Jane like in the Avengers like oh, yeah, they're being protected. Okay, that's why they're not around But yeah, you know it was a
00:22:13
Speaker
Yeah, I'd felt the same way. So, listener, sorry if I didn't do such a good job cleaning this up. We just had to break real quick so I could grab my son over here. But yeah, I'd missed some of those characters. And yeah, we've gotten those explanations. Like you said, it was Pepper and...
00:22:33
Speaker
Well, Pepper appeared in Avengers, but yeah, they mentioned like Jane was being protected. And then Betty hadn't been mentioned at all. And I kind of thought that you were getting about her. But now they Yeah, and but now they just announced that she's going to be in new Captain America movie. And yes, I saw that it's going back to that.
00:22:48
Speaker
Yeah, it's just kind of it's kind of crazy. It's like they basically all but forgot about that corner aside from when they brought Ross in as an authority figure. I guess for Civil War was the first time he came back. Yeah. And it's just it's just as much as it's cool to like, okay, they're revisiting. It's like how many years down the road where these people weren't even like an afterthought in this world and how are they going to explain them like he's, you know,
00:23:12
Speaker
What's Samuel but Stern's been doing all this time? Wouldn't you think he became the leader full on by now? And what did he do? He was just privately scheming of how to do whatever he's going to do evil for years. And now is the time to strike. And where's she been while Bruce was getting all comfy with Black Widow?
00:23:33
Speaker
I know there's all the legal mumbo jumbo behind it where they can't make a solo Hulk movie, but they could have incorporated the characters here and there within like the Avengers movies and things like that. So it's, it's cool, but also like, okay, how are they going to address this? How is this going to make sense and not feel forced? But we'll see.
00:23:51
Speaker
We'll see. One of the things I do like about this is that now we're at the point with the MCU that we've gotten to in the comics where you need a character for a certain thing. You can go back to the old characters and be like, like WandaVision did with Darcy. And it's like, okay, we need this character for this. Hey, let's bring Darcy back. That's a good way to link it in. And I think that's a cool aspect of it. So I'm glad we're finding ways to use these characters in these different ways instead of creating new characters all the time.
00:24:20
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I definitely see your point. I mean, yeah, it's it's definitely expanded from back when Incredible Hulk was like the second MCU movie and people kind of forget about it because they've basically treated like the characters and story like it was forgotten and obviously with, you know, Bruce Banner being recast. But but yeah, it's there. It's part of the MCU, you know, Tony Stark shows up in it. So it still counts.
00:24:46
Speaker
Yeah, Tony Stark shows up. They had an Avengers when they were doing the little clips of him looking at the screens. They've got Norton's Hulk on there. And Ruffalo makes a comment about how last time he was in New York, he broke Harlem. So there were little things like that they were tossed in. And now, obviously, we got Ross back. We got Abomination back, and She-Hulk now, too. So I'm glad they're finally referencing it. So it'll be good to see where we go from there.
00:25:14
Speaker
Now with Ant-Man, I'm a little bit familiar with him because through the Avengers comics, I hadn't read much of his solo stuff, but I really liked Scott Lang when he was in Jeff Johns' Avengers run. And I was really pissed off when when Bendis killed him in Disassembled. And the funny thing is, when this movie was in production, it was it was not Hank Pym or Scott Lang, who were the Ant-Man. It was Eric O'Grady, Robert Kirkman's creation, the irredeemable Ant-Man.
00:25:44
Speaker
And that was part of the post-Civil War era and all that. And at first, my assumption was going to be, oh, they're going to go with Eric O'Grady, because he's the one in the comics now. So I was pleasantly surprised when they went with Scott Lang, and even more pleasantly surprised when they cast Paul Rudd to play him. And then again, they brought in Hank Pym, too, with Michael Douglas. Because I figured with the whole thing in the comics about
00:26:11
Speaker
you know, him hitting Jan and everything, they were gonna avoid any potential controversy with Hank Pym and just not mention him at all. So I was pleasantly surprised to see that they didn't do that either. So they brought in those two characters. And I loved that first Ant-Man movie, how it was like this low-key heist movie.
00:26:29
Speaker
And then this one, you know, elevating hope to the role of the Wasp, bringing in Michelle Pfeiffer of all people to play Jan, I thought was great. I've got some quibbles about Ghost, which we can get to, but overall, I thought this was a really fun, really enjoyable movie, first time I watched it. Maybe not quite reaching the heights of the first Ant-Man movie, but still very much, very enjoyable. What were your thoughts about it?
00:26:56
Speaker
Well just going back to what you were saying with like the overall view of these movies, me, I'm usually quite a stickler for like keeping things as comic accurate as possible. So like when I heard they cast Paul Rudd, I mean I like Paul Rudd, he's a good actor, he's funny, but it's also like you know for me it's like
00:27:14
Speaker
Okay, Scott Lang is a redhead. Will they give him a wig or something like that? And actually it became a joke with a friend of mine, Tom Sharpling. He has a radio show and he's actually good friends with the director of the trilogy, Peyton Reed. And he would, he actually, I was, I went to a convention with him once. It was in New Jersey. He was, you know, he's from New Jersey. He was in New Jersey at the time. He's in California now. We met up at this convention and I think he was texting with him like joking about
00:27:43
Speaker
Scott should have red hair and like he's exaggerated how much like I like as if I was just a maniac about it and as if I wanted the hair to be like literally red and not red head where it's you know more like a you know a natural kind of orange and stuff like that but um
00:27:59
Speaker
But yeah, and like, I mean, obviously, and also about Ant-Man and the Ant-Man movies, this was like the first MCU movie that was being worked on back when it was like Edgar Wright, before Iron Man, anything, they were trying to do that. And I think, you know, the plan was always to be generational, even back then. So they were going to have Hank, and then they were going to have Scott. And I think there were even talks of including Eric at a point. I think there were, yeah.
00:28:21
Speaker
It's a shame it all fell apart because I was really disappointed when Ant-Man and the Wasp couldn't be part of the initial Avengers lineup because that's what the comics had them as. And then so that they have the primary Ant-Man being Scott and then
00:28:36
Speaker
hank's an old man and that didn't initially sit exactly well for me but obviously i got used to it and now obviously were three movies and then michael douglas is giving good performances and michelle fife is great but you know that make me have this hope character where hope hope and i was only like some alternate reality,
00:28:53
Speaker
version of something in the comics but they just kind of took that name and they gave her the hairdo and everything and she's basically taking the place of the original Wasp Janet Van Dyne until they bring her in and then she's already old and so it was a little like I had to go okay just go with it you know same with the changes they made and other things you know they decided to do or I don't know if they it's a decision they did
00:29:16
Speaker
ultimate Nick Fury, basically. But I think that's just because they initially based him on Samuel L. Jackson. And then to avoid legal problems, they had to make an agreement with him that if they do Nick Fury, he gets the first refusal to play him. So, you know, again, there were things where initially I was bugged, but then it sort of
00:29:33
Speaker
one meal so yes some you know sometimes throughout the mcu there been changes obviously that didn't sit right with me initially but then you know as things get on as more time passes and it gets to be their version of things i kind of accept it and go on and obviously you know nick fury's been a lot of movies now samuel jackson does a good job as a character now we got secret invasion coming they just dropped the new trailer for that and it looks it looks cool so you know i don't hang on to things ongoing but just initially it's just like man i wish they could just do it more like
00:30:02
Speaker
the classic, you know, 1616 universe comics that I know, and that they're the ones that justify these movies decades of history from that version. And then they're pulling from like, Ultimates. And I'm like, But, you know, it's it's an amalgamation of things. And I understand you got to change things. But yeah, yeah.
00:30:21
Speaker
I feel like with the Nick Fury stuff especially, that was a big part of it too. Plus, early on when they were doing the MCU, I think the original plan was to model it after the Ultimates, and you kind of see some aspects of that. I know the original Avengers script was written by Zach Penn, and I feel like he took more of a
00:30:43
Speaker
more, hewed more closely to the Ultimates version. But then when Whedon came in as director, he basically rewrote the whole thing. And he kept like the basic overview of like the Chitauri and all that, but
00:30:52
Speaker
He brought in a lot of those classic silver and bronze age feel to the script when he was doing that. And I think after that hit it so big, Marvel kind of took a softer approach on that. And they're just kind of like, let's try and find the essence of each one of these characters, twist things when we need to to make it fit in. And for the most part, I think it's worked pretty well.
00:31:18
Speaker
most of the changes they've made I've been okay with. And I feel like they they've managed to distill this stuff into kind of its purest essence. It's not something like like the X-Men movies where they took every where they just completely did something different or, you know, the Snyder films, which I'm not going to get into that again. But I feel like this one, you know, what I like about Marvel is they do kind of find that essence and and now they're at this point where
00:31:48
Speaker
they've learned the lesson that I think other studios haven't where it's it's comic books it's based on this really weird wacky shit and sometimes you just got to lean into that and I think and I like that aspect of it too yeah I'm glad that they seem to loosen up on that more because yes they should I mean they are marvel I feel like they should have been on that much sooner because it's superhero books you have people flying around after you introduced rocket raccoon and Groot who's basically a talking walking tree
00:32:17
Speaker
It's all it's all you know out in the open. You can't oh well. It's not really magic It's science where dr. Strange taps into another dimension. Just let it be magic. You know it's just so Yeah, you know again I have my stickler feelings about stuff But once you know they just let it be comic bookie and have fun with it And you know it's not everything has to be the dark night not everything has to be you know Grounded or anything like that, but um on what you said uh
00:32:44
Speaker
I have much different opinions of Joss Whedon these days, but I guess I'll give him credit where credit's due and what you mentioned. Also, I'll just say, I'm glad they definitely stayed away from Ultimates basically for Captain America because that's pure Steve Rogers.
00:33:02
Speaker
like his costume and world war two is influenced by it where i would have you know maybe not got in that direction but otherwise his personality his heart like when chris evans as as scrawny steve. When are scones asking him like do you want to kill nazis and he says i don't want to kill anyone i just don't like bullies.
00:33:21
Speaker
He passed Erskine's test and he passed my test. Like that's the moment that locked it in for me as Chris Evans, as Steve Rogers, Captain America. Because honestly, I mean, before that, I mainly knew him as the guy with the whipped cream bikini and not another teen movie. And I'm like, that's who they cast as Captain America. Come on. So I was very skeptical, but, you know, obviously we've seen everything that's come after that since. And, you know, he, he killed it. I mean, he is our generation's Captain America at least. I mean, now.
00:33:50
Speaker
Sam's taken the role, but as far as Steve Rogers, Captain America, that's Chris Evans. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think he's going to be connected to that role in the same way that we talk about like Superman and Christopher Reeves. I mean, he's been that iconic or also, you know, Robert Downey Jr. and Iron Man. It is that much of a perfect casting, 100% cosign on that.
00:34:13
Speaker
Yeah, and I felt like that was one of the problems with Captain America is there's, there's two mistakes that frequently are made with him. One is they either write him like he's a grandpa, and as if he's literally 90 years old, when really he's just a, he's a guy who was in his 20s, and then he woke up, and then he got basically plucked out of time. And then the other mistake I see a lot is what Miller did in the Ultimates where they write him as this jingoistic, you know, alpha male asshole. And,
00:34:40
Speaker
He's never been either of those things. So I'm glad that they and Chris Evans I think has really done a great service to that character and shown that he's not that way He doesn't have to be that way Yeah, that's but that's just the worst The ultimate's what is just the worst in my opinion a friend of mine would friend of mine would tease me with the panel Oh, do you think this a stands for France? I'm like that is so stupid and obnoxious and not the Captain America. I know sorry get out of here. I
00:35:07
Speaker
The greatest rebuttal to that was in the Captain America comics themselves when Ed Brubaker wrote an issue with Cap reminiscing about the French for Legion and the French Resistance in World War II and talking about how it always drives me nuts when Americans called the French cowards. It's like I was there. I saw what they did.
00:35:28
Speaker
and how they fought against the Nazis. He's like, they were not cowards. And that was like the perfect, that came out very shortly after that ultimate issue. So it was like the perfect rebuttal to it. Oh, well, I wasn't aware that I'll have to see if we can track that issue down. Yeah, it was in early in the group in Brubaker's run. I think it was in the like within the first 12 issues, I believe during the I mean, that's such a great run that as far as Captain America stories go, like his run is like legendary and it's fairly recent, relatively speaking.
00:35:59
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that is, I think that is probably the definitive Capron for me. But anyway, back to Ant-Man and the Wasp. What were some of your thoughts about this movie? What did you think about this, watching this, or rewatching it last night? Oh, you know, it's definitely a lot of fun. You know, there's some goofy, silly humor in it.
00:36:21
Speaker
You know, overall, I don't think I have much to complain about. That tends to be how I rank Marvel movies. How much do I have to complain about? Is it like, is it fairly good with me? Or like, are there nitpicks? Because, you know, I can nitpick with the best of them. But overall, you know, again,
00:36:39
Speaker
It's already established the characters and stuff, so I can't have the same complaints about what they did with following Scott over Hank and who they cast and what role and hair colors, etc. So we're already in it and following it up.
00:36:54
Speaker
You know it's a good follow-up it it's the proper next step and you know it it catches up with you know the little flashback initially we got in the first one of Hank and Jan on that mission so then we see more of that and how things got to be with her there and then we you know they get to connect with her and
00:37:15
Speaker
And yeah, I mean, there's, there's good performances all around and, you know, they introduce, they expand like the cast a little bit where they introduce Bill Foster. And then they have Ghost who's, you know, becomes this sort of sympathetic villain. And then you got Sonny Burch and his guys who was not especially sympathetic. And, um, yeah, it's, it's a fun story and there are stakes and, you know, good characters, good performances all around.
00:37:41
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I agree with a lot of that. One of the things I really liked about it was the, you know, elevating Hope's role and because that was, it was disappointing that we didn't get to see the Wasp. I'm glad we got the mention of Jan, at least in the first movie.
00:37:57
Speaker
And then that tease, that stinger at the end of Ant-Man where you see, where Hank shows, shows her the Waspy suit that they're developing. And then getting to see that in this movie and seeing her in action. I do wish she kept the Bob though. I did like the Bob a little bit more.
00:38:12
Speaker
Oh yeah, on that note, that is one thing that bugs me about the Ant-Man films, is they had to put her and then Cassie in helmets. And I could tell it's just purely for CGI purposes, for shrinking and growing. To do a CGI human face for all of that would be much more difficult than to do a helmet. But I mean, if she was the Wasp,
00:38:35
Speaker
and she had that bob hairdo that would like pump me up so much more because then it's like even though she's hope she's not jan she would basically be hope in name and still some version of the gen we knew from comics and uh oh and oh the haircut she had in quantum mania was terrible going off to that one for a second
00:38:54
Speaker
I couldn't, that was, that was awful. But yeah, but on this movie, yeah, yeah, she was, you know, her character was obviously more developed. And like you said, we also got to see Jan where it was, I remember there was like a, a furor initially when people like were hearing about her role or lack thereof in the original and they're like calling like Jan van crime or something. And, you know, again, that's sort of judging before, you know, and, but still maybe a little justified. And then in that stinger you mentioned where she sees the,
00:39:24
Speaker
the suit that her dad's made for her. She says it's about damn time. And that's, that's also kind of like symbolic for like,
00:39:33
Speaker
the greater superhero cinema and like female fans about damn time that they're getting to, you know, main strong, you know, female. I mean, you know, we had, um, no, we had black widow, but, you know, now this is sort of, uh, you know, a more, you know, just continuing on that and giving a new lead female character to, uh, you know, include in the greater world building.
00:40:00
Speaker
Yeah, a big part of that was, was Ike Perlmutter was in charge of a long while of yeah, and he, he felt that women, women shouldn't be superheroes, basically. And he's like, a woman led superhero movie is a terrible idea. He also felt the same way about black led superhero movies, you know, just
00:40:19
Speaker
fucking terrible racist and misogynist. And he almost got like, that's why Chris Evans almost quit. That's why Kevin Feige almost quit. And then finally, Disney's like, oh, shit, we can't do this. And then move Marvel Studios out into its own thing. And then Perlmutter finally hung himself on his own petard. And now he's finally fired. So we never have to worry about that asshole. So ding dong, the witch is dead. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I felt a lot of the same things, too. And I also love seeing Bill Foster in this.
00:40:50
Speaker
going back to Mark Miller and the Ultimate said what he did with Bill Foster in Civil War. I mean, I'm not gonna die on this hill and say Black Goliath was my favorite character or anything, but I thought it was... I hate when they do that in comics when it's like, you've got all these heroes and then you've got this one character plucked from obscurity and then the tag is, one of these heroes will die. Like, gee, I wonder which one it's gonna be. Come on.
00:41:12
Speaker
And of course, it's a black guy. That's not a good look. Of course, it's a black guy. Yeah. And suddenly they can't figure out how to use pem particles to shrink his body because you have to have the visual bearing the giant corpse. And and it was just it was it was so irritating. So I was really cool seeing Bill Foster in this and also referencing him as as Goliath, right, having the project Goliath that him and Hank worked on. So I like that little Easter egg. Him and Scott geeking out over how big could you grow and all that kind of stuff.
00:41:41
Speaker
Yeah, and that's the scene also where Scott is like, do you guys just put quantum in front of everything? And that's I think that that's like, basically, I think the phrase is like putting a lampshade on it or something is basically they're saying it so that they could beat us to the punch because, you know, it's they do they do that a lot, especially in this movie. And it really is. It's just like a way of like, let's make this sound super sciency and then they don't need to think too much about it. Just no, it's a quantum thing.
00:42:07
Speaker
And, uh, but I'm saying it, they, they, you know, they beat us to the punch and we gotta just go along with it. Basically. Yeah, it was, um, there's, there's a lot of that. I remember I was doing, I was taking part in a, in a Star Trek RPG up until recently. And, uh, I, my character was like the engineer character and, and the.
00:42:27
Speaker
the head of the game, he was the game master. He was like sending, he's like, so you gotta describe this. I'm like, I don't know what any of this is. What am I supposed to do? And he sent me a link to this techno babble chart. And he's like, mix and match these words and then just do it. I'm like, okay. And I'm just like, uh, you know, this tech word, this tech word. And he's like, he's like, that was perfect. That was, I'm like, it was nonsense. He's like, yeah, but that's what techno babble is.
00:42:49
Speaker
Yeah, so yeah, but it is fun when they when they do that. One of my biggest disappointments in this movie, though, was actually the ghost like I thought
00:43:01
Speaker
Within the confines of the story, I thought the ghost was an interesting character, but going back to what you were saying about staying true to the comic stuff, I did miss that ghost from the comics where he, first off, I don't care if it's a man or a woman, but I did miss that aspect of the character in the comics where the ghost is an industrial saboteur, is very much this anti-corporate, anti-establishment type of character.
00:43:26
Speaker
And this does make me wish that we would have gotten to see the ghost in an Iron Man movie because one of my biggest criticisms of the Iron Man movies after the first one is you're just kind of redoing the Obadiah Stane thing where you've got another corporate guy who's not quite as smart as Tony Stark as the villain. And that's just like the same thing in Iron Man 2 and Iron Man 3. And I think it would have been much more interesting to have someone like the ghost as a villain in those movies instead.
00:43:56
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good point. I could I could see that being something different for Iron Man and being enjoyable. Like, yeah, I don't have much attachment to the comic ghost. But, you know, obviously I knew about the gender swap. But, you know, again, that's because I don't have as much attachment. I didn't especially care one way or the other. But yeah, it definitely is.
00:44:16
Speaker
a big divergence in character, too. So it's like, that's that's one thing that almost kind of bothers me about Marvel. Sometimes sometimes they grab a name or a character and then they just use it because, hey, let's let's put one of our things in there. And it's completely different. It's just like, but look, we use that name. It's a name of a character within our, you know, thousands of characters in our comics, like
00:44:40
Speaker
Aldrich Killian in Iron Man 3, speaking of Iron Man films, I think he's in one issue and he's not some big bad villain or something. And I think the same thing goes with Arthur Harrow, the moon knight villain for the first moon knight season. He is a villain, but he's some scientist or something. But they just plucked that name and applied it to this cult leader guy who's completely far removed, but he's got the same name.
00:45:03
Speaker
So yes, it's cool when they bring in more characters, but it's more cool when it's more true to their character, at least rather than just, yeah, we applied to the name, to the guy that we needed for our story that we wanted to tell.
00:45:16
Speaker
With Killian, that was a Perlmutter thing because the villain was supposed to be Maya Hansen.
Character Adaptations and Representation
00:45:23
Speaker
That was the original plan. She was supposed to be the villain just like she was in the Extremis story arc. But Perlmutter is like, we can't have a woman as the villain. That's ridiculous. We have to have a man as the villain. So then they swapped it and they made... And there it was like all these re-suits, last minute stuff and they
00:45:38
Speaker
basically rework the movie so that Eldritch Killian could be the villain instead, which I agree was was ridiculous. Yeah, I enjoyed Moon Knight for the most part. But I mean, I was such a big fan of the Moon Knight comics that I was a little disappointed that it didn't queue closer to those. And yeah, Arthur Harrow was one of those characters where he was like this villain and like one issue and they were just kind of like they gave Marvel gave this the
00:46:03
Speaker
the writers, the showrunners, a list of villains they had, they could use. And they looked at it like, Arthur Herro, that sounds like a villainous name. Let's use that. That was kind of the rationale for that. Yeah, with me, I was it was a mixed bag on moonlight. I think I was enjoying it as it went along. And, you know, my little brother, he is the biggest moonlight fan there is. He's just like full on. He's got like at least up to a point, every issue that he even appears in. If he's in one panel, if he's on just the cover,
00:46:33
Speaker
He got into him in like the mid 90s when I bought this action figure that was like you had to get like Toy Fair magazine, I think, and mail it for it. Marvel Gold was like the little sub line of the five inch Marvel figures. And then, you know, we learned more about him. And then when we learned he was Jewish, like we're we're Jewish. So that was like really cool because you don't see that often.
00:46:54
Speaker
And so, you know, you connect with that. And, um, so he's been huge moonlight. He was waiting for it forever and he's a little more easy going with stuff than me that I've, you know, talked about me and stuff. He, uh, you know, Harry, his, his name is Harry. Um, he, he's able to let things roll off. So when there were changes in the moonlight series, he kind of rolled with them more than me. I think there were some things he was a little disappointed with, but he was, you know, not as much. I mean, with me, I was especially disappointed with.
00:47:21
Speaker
the Jewish representation. I mean, everyone talks these days about representation matters and you get, you know, this person from this background, that one, you know, so you get Black Panther, you get Shang-Chi.
00:47:33
Speaker
you get, you know, the women lead heroes with, you know, Captain Marvel, She-Hulk and stuff. And then we get our chance for like our one big Jewish superhero. And it felt like it was a footnote. It felt like, I think, I think I read someone commenting on Twitter where it was like someone on staff like went to, like looked up Jewish on Pinterest and just grabbed a few things. So like, okay, star of David necklace, check. Mazza on the wall, check.
00:48:00
Speaker
You know sitting Shiva check yarmulke check and then it's like and then they they rewrote his origin for it with the whole thing with the mother where
00:48:09
Speaker
You know, his father's a rabbi in the comics and there's actually a connection there and, you know, with that background being raised that way. And then with the hate crimes and there was issues where he's fighting the clan and it just felt they all swept that under the rug in favor of making sure Egyptian representation was first and foremost. I know like the director or, you know,
00:48:30
Speaker
the one of the big directors, at least for the show, he was like, you know, I think he's Egyptian. And he was really big on that and getting that mythology right and stuff. But then the Jewish side got kind of swept under the rug. So, you know, it was good that there was some, but I just I was disappointed. And and otherwise,
00:48:47
Speaker
Yeah, you know, it was it was good for what it was. And sometimes you have to just look at some of these projects like that, like in and of itself, what it's trying to do. It's it's pretty good. But but then, you know, you still allowed to have some complaints and they can be valid complaints. But, you know, that's where I'm at with with one night. Well, I am looking forward to
00:49:10
Speaker
where he'll show up next. Oh yeah, another thing, I was trying to remember what else I was talking about. They brushed aside his supporting cast because they wanted him to start as this man who's alone and confused because they decided to start with this Steven persona and also Steven's very different. They made him this goofy British guy wherein
00:49:28
Speaker
I guess again, I hate when they have to make changes purely because they want to differentiate from the distinguished competition. So like, you know, Namor is not from Atlantis because Aquaman got to theaters sooner and
00:49:43
Speaker
You know i mean this is this is a running thing even in the comics for moonlight they always compare him to batman they say he's marbles batman which is really a disservice i see the similarities but he's a completely different character but yeah one of his alter egos you know he's got a few of them one of them steven grant in the comics is like a rich guy where he invested his money from being like you know uh an operative and you know um and he became you know he put on that front and then he also had you know jake lockley who is like
00:50:09
Speaker
this you know he puts on a fake mustache and he drives cabs and that's how he finds underground info to keep track of stuff and then his main you know self is mark specter and then moon knight is his superhero alter ego so here we meet him as steven this goofball british guy then we find out about mark and then they kind of swap places and interact and then only in like the last tag of the last episode they introduce jake lockley and then he's like speaking spanish and
00:50:35
Speaker
You know, but then also it's also like, we don't, we don't have any clue right now where he's going to show up next. We know they're not done with him. They wouldn't, they didn't just set him up for, you know, a one season show and okay. See you later. They always have plans ahead, but, uh, but yeah, so again, their differences, um, it was cool to see when they had the guy crawly, but he's just like this living statue instead of fulfilling the role in the comics. And they basically made Marlene, um, into the new love interest.
00:51:04
Speaker
Uh, was it Layla? So they just changed her, her story and basically created a new character of some semi based on that. But then, you know, there were other supporting characters and they're not to be seen also cause they all, and then they made him based in England.
00:51:16
Speaker
Rather than New York, people say, oh, they can't have everyone in New York. I mean, it worked in the comics. I don't know. I think you can make it work, but I get it. Change of pace. But, uh, but yeah, I'm running off on a moonlight tangent. Now we're here to talk about it. But yeah, like I said, I enjoyed it mostly for what it is, but I had my, my issues with it too.
00:51:35
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Going back to this, speaking of bringing in characters, Sonny Burch was one of those characters that they brought in who was, again, an Iron Man character actually, but he had an affiliation with, he used to be with cross technologies in the comics, so, and that was his background in the comics, then they brought him in, but he was introduced in Iron Man. But I thought Walton Goggins was, I loved watching his scenes in this, like I love Walton Goggins, he's great. And seeing him in here, like,
00:52:06
Speaker
You know, put on that little accent and being this, you know, this crooked little arms dealer who's playing both sides. I thought he was a fun addition to the cast. What do you think of him? Yeah, he was. He's very good. I know people like him a lot. I've only seen him in so much else. I think maybe only what I saw. I mean, I think it was Sons of Anarchy where he's like.
00:52:25
Speaker
like a trans I think he's you know he's playing like a female character who's trans and you know it's obviously a very different role and you know I actually didn't I didn't I didn't have any knowledge of Sonny Burch as a character from the comics so this was like fresh to me so he's a clean slate so it's
00:52:41
Speaker
Again, the less I know about a character, the less I can complain for changes in accuracy and stuff. I literally looked him up just before we started recording just to double check. I'm like, is he a character from the comics? And so I found out, yeah, he was in the story arc where Tony becomes Secretary of Defense. That was his only appearance in the comics, was that arc.
00:53:01
Speaker
And he was kind of like the antagonist in that. But otherwise, he died at the end of that arc. He committed suicide. So not much. One thing you said before, though, I want to touch on, too. I just remember now with Namor, I heard actually I thought it was because of Aquaman, but I heard a different story recently, which put in a different context because universal. There's a real there's a confusing thing with the name or rights with universal, apparently. But that only applies to like later versions of Namor and
00:53:32
Speaker
Apparently, the original version of Namor is there's a question of whether or not he's public domain, like the very first appearance. So Marvel was basing it on that first appearance, and that didn't have Atlantis or anything like that. So part of the way to get around that too was to base it on that original public domain version of it too.
00:53:56
Speaker
Interesting I didn't I didn't know about that. I mean, you know, I hate that was one theory. I'd read recently Yeah, yeah, right. This is your pain in the ass. I mean, that's well. Yeah when they
00:54:05
Speaker
Yeah, when they get in the way of just letting us have our stuff, like, I mean, I was so happy when they worked out the deal with Sony to get Spidey at least in Civil War. And then now working with Marvel to make these Spidey films, like, because, you know, amazing. The first one, I was like, all right. The second one was like, oh, that was that was rough. So in a way, I'm glad it was so rough because it led to them going, we got to figure something out. Let's work with Marvel.
00:54:33
Speaker
And overall, you know, again, with the Tom Holland version, I like him in the role. I like a lot about it. I like that he's able to be interconnected with the greater Marvel universe. But there are quibbles in those movies, too. But yeah. Yeah. So I'm glad that. And then, you know,
00:54:51
Speaker
with the Fox deal, we can finally have, you know, X-Men and Fantastic Four join the fray eventually when they get to it. Yeah, speaking of the Jewish representation, we'll be getting that with with the thing then, hopefully. Yeah, yeah, that's a thought because it's like, OK, maybe we'll get that with him, because I mean, you know, he's basically Jack Kirby. So, you know, I mean, obviously I'm not asking for them to like film a scene where it's like a bar mitzvah or like go on like or have him overtly talking. But, you know, if they could just
00:55:21
Speaker
have it play some kind of role or make it clear, make it more obvious. It was very like in the background, aside from like the one flashback scene episode with the mother and the sitting Shiva, which for those who don't know, that's like the period after someone dies the morning. There's a week of where you kind of sit around and you're wearing black and you cover the mirrors. So they included that. And that's like one little thing where it gets a little bit more of representation, but, you know,
00:55:50
Speaker
It was kind of a, okay, that's it. But yeah, you know, the thing at least, yeah, and also, we were really wanting them to do a Jewish actor for Moon Knight. And in the end, Oscar Isaac, we were glad, you know, he's good and we'd like him, but it would have been nice. And it would definitely still be nice if they did that for Ben Grimm. Again, it's not essential. I'm not one of these people who are sticklers that the person playing the role has to equal
00:56:18
Speaker
the background of the role if they can do it well I mean some people I know and nowadays obviously I get where it comes from again with representation mattering like if a character is a certain way
00:56:30
Speaker
better to give it to a person of that background, especially if they're underrepresented in media. But I also am not feeling like it absolutely has to be that way for some characters. I guess it's a case by case basis. Yeah. Okay, so Ant-Man and the Wasp too, one of the things I liked about this too was how closely they tied into it and they
00:56:58
Speaker
kind of showed the aftermath of what happened in Civil War. Probably better than almost any other movie at that time. I mean, Black Widow obviously dealt with it a little bit more, too. But I felt like this was one of the only movies that really kind of touched on the fallout of what happened in Civil War. In Infinity War, there's just the very brief mention of how
00:57:20
Speaker
you know, oh, Cap and I had a falling out and then you know, you know, Clinton and Scott took a deal for immunity because it was too tough on their families. And here we get to see that play a big part in the plot, right? Scott's under house arrest, we see the how it strained his relationship with with Hope and Hank. So I really like those aspects of it too. How did you feel about that too?
00:57:41
Speaker
That's true. I don't I don't I didn't even really think about it that much because I just watched, you know, this movie, you know, in the context of this movie. But yeah, that's a very good point. Yeah. You know, some of these things, they introduce things and sometimes it's big things like Civil War was big in changing the landscape of the MCU because it split the whole.
00:58:00
Speaker
you know, Avengers team in half. But then yeah, do you really think outside of them then not being prepared for Thanos, it wasn't much, especially, yeah, the fallout, that was the big fallout. And like anything else, there wasn't much going on. So that, that set the stage for them where they were not a coherent unit where maybe if they were, they could have beat him. And honestly, when I thought
00:58:27
Speaker
I thought for endgame what they were going to have is they were going to use time travel and Tony was going to make the call instead of hesitating and not make the call. And I thought that was going to be the game changer rather than the whole time heist where they get the gems and do all that. But I felt like they were going to go back to that moment in time and they were going to work things out. And that was going to lead to them being ready to defeat him. But no, I liked endgame a lot. I'm glad with how how it played out.
00:58:56
Speaker
And, um, but yeah, like you said, yeah, I mean, civil war is one of my favorite of, of all the MCU movies. It's, you know, it introduced Spider-Man and that airport scene alone is like top tier superhero action scenes, like feels like it's pulled out of the comics.
00:59:14
Speaker
So yeah, this is more like the first two Ant-Man films were typically more confined, their own little bubble. And so you really do see how it impacts him and his crew, his people that are close to him.
00:59:33
Speaker
before they went to Quantimania, which was now the big scale thing where they're using an Ant-Man film of all things to launch the new threat of Kang and his variants. Although we'll see what happens with Kang now that Jonathan Majors is a criminal. That's a thing. I remember when they heard that and I'm like, oh boy, what are they going to do? Scramble and rewrite everything they have planned so far? Or are they going to recast him? We'll see how it plays out because I heard
01:00:00
Speaker
You know, there's more to the story. I was reading things where he was sharing some text chain with the girlfriend. She was saying something. So we'll see how that plays out. Maybe it was all confusion and misunderstanding. Yeah. Yeah, you never know, you know, probably more likely, I guess, just because especially with a character like they've recast in the past, right? Ruffalo, obviously, you know,
01:00:23
Speaker
Cheetle took over for roadie as well. And so it wouldn't surprise me if they just did a recast And especially with Kang it's very easy to explain because you know, he's got all these variants running around anyway So that's that's one possible thing they could do but yeah, I
01:00:41
Speaker
I agree with you. One of my disappointments with Civil War and Endgame is no disappointments with those movies themselves, but just the stuff it sets up that we then don't get to see. That period of time between Civil War and Infinity War, we can see what was Cap's team up to? What was Tony's team up to during that time period?
01:01:06
Speaker
There's some interesting stories there or in endgame like that five-year period went before the time heist begins because we see the Avengers are still active with with Natasha calling the shots from the compound and and It did make me wonder, you know that
01:01:21
Speaker
If I could pitch Marvel on any series that'd be like a tie-in to the MCU, it would be a series like one would be like set in that period between Civil War and Infinity War. Another one would be set in that five-year gap in Endgame. And a third one would be, what happened to Cap after he went to that alternate timeline and lived a life
MCU Character Dynamics
01:01:40
Speaker
with Peggy? What would happen? How did he change the world in that way, in that new timeline? That would be another interesting thing to see. Yeah, in that ending, I know it rubbed people the wrong way because some people felt,
01:01:51
Speaker
He leave bucky but i mean bucky's a grown man i don't think you know he's gonna you know he obviously had his blessing but also what's odd about it is. If you ask the directors and you ask the writers each of them tells you something different about this yeah is it a branch reality or how to work cuz if it.
01:02:13
Speaker
It makes your head spin with those sort of things with time travel and realities and stuff. I think it has to be a branched reality. He lives. Yeah, and he lives this, you know, fairly quiet life, I'd think with Peggy and just, you know, he
01:02:28
Speaker
He did his service, he fought in wars, he fought alongside the Avengers, he's now getting to have that life that maybe he would have liked to have had before his life went through this huge change if he could have just settled with her and that's what he always wanted.
01:02:48
Speaker
Yeah, then people talk about, oh, well then, wouldn't he have like saved Bucky sooner in that timeline or like, oh, stop the Kennedy assassination or this thing. I think the guy's just like, I'm not here to be a hero. I'm here to, you know, live a simple life. So yeah, it opens up questions and stuff, but.
01:03:08
Speaker
They should have had a cohesive idea of which one it is, because when you're giving interviews and one half of the mouth says one thing and another says another thing, it kind of looks like you don't got your stuff together. But I was fine with it too. The thing that I was thrown by, which I've heard other people, is that he gave the shield to Sam. I mean, especially, again, going by comics,
01:03:32
Speaker
And and going by foreshadowing and things that were set up it seemed obvious It was gonna go to Bucky in the comic lineage Bucky took over and then eventually I think Steve came back and then Sam took over here He just cuts out the middleman and Bucky never Gets the opportunity to be a Captain America and it goes to Sam and it's like your best friend your war buddy the guy who's had experience throwing the shield around when he was brainwashed and you know this great fighter and
01:04:02
Speaker
Or this guy that you've been, you know, knowing for a little bit, doing some superheroing with that, you know, you only know so well. And then that you skip the friend, your lifelong best friend for that guy. It didn't seem to add up, but you know.
01:04:16
Speaker
It's fine. And I liked, I liked that show that, you know, the Falcon and the Winter Soldier, I think it was, it was good and they have good rapport between them. Those guys are always, you know, in real life too. They're fun in like interviews and stuff, but you know, yeah, we'll see where he goes in the role of Captain America. But yeah, again, like I said, I liked
01:04:36
Speaker
from the character standpoints and what they set up in this movie, especially at the end of Endgame. I thought Sam made more sense, but you can listen, I talked about this more in, we did a pair of episodes on Falcon and Winter Soldier a while back so you can go back and listen to those here, what I had to say about that. But let's focus on this movie too. I thought Paul Rudd got to his stretches acting a little bit here where he gets that scene where he has to,
01:05:03
Speaker
know, basically play as Michelle Pfeiffer in that one scene. I thought that was a fun little addition there. Yeah, that was amusing. Oh, and that brings to mind, I was taking notes while I was watching to see any like funny and observations or questions. You know, he's talking as as Jan being channeled through him. And, you know, calls, hope, Jellybean. Jellybean. Yeah, that was that was Jan's nickname. And I noticed both Scott
01:05:32
Speaker
and Jan have food-based nicknames for their daughters. I don't know if that's intentional or what, but he calls Cassie Peanut. She calls her Jellybean. So I just, that's something I picked up on this viewing that didn't click within the original. I'm guessing that was probably maybe sort of intentional. I'm pretty sure that had to be intentional, yeah. Yeah, I like that too. And some really funny moments in this, some little funny bits. Like I love that scene when
01:05:58
Speaker
Jans for her hope is first displaying her abilities the wasp and you know scott and hanker watching from the car and
01:06:05
Speaker
And Scott's like, oh, so wings and blasters. I guess you didn't have that stuff when you designed it. No, I did. I did. Yeah. Yeah. There are good jokes throughout. And funny stuff. And Paul Rudd's great with delivery. And then some of the stuff with his team where the one guy's talking about Baba Yaga. Oh, yeah. Oh.
01:06:29
Speaker
They go they come for little children and they start singing the song and then when Later on when like Sonny and his guys are there interrogating him and then she pops out Is great the truth serum was great too. I love that one, too Yeah, then in the end they use it on them when they're talking to the cops like wow, I guess it was a truth serum
01:06:56
Speaker
Oh, I love the crew in this. I got I'm glad they got to do a little bit more. David Daspel chain, he's it's he really disappears into these different roles, right? Seeing him in this and then you know, seeing him in the Suicide Squad, or he was also in abracadabra on the flash TV show.
01:07:15
Speaker
Oh, I didn't, I didn't really, I never, I've never got into the flash. I heard good things, but then also like the dark night, that was maybe the first thing where like he got noticed where he's like that crazy prisoner laughing. And then people were like, Oh, is he the mad hatter? Is he going to be the mad hatter and stuff? But yeah. Oh my God. I completely forgot he was in, you're right. I completely, that's what, that's exactly exactly goes to my point, right? He completely disappears into these different roles.
01:07:40
Speaker
Yeah, and then he's a voice in Clontomania, so he didn't get to play the same character, but then he's that little goopy guy. Oh, I didn't know that either, wow. Yeah, he's the voice of that guy, yeah. Yeah, I miss seeing that trio and this too, especially Luis. I remember there was this meme going around where everybody was saying what they want to see is Michael Peña doing a recap as Luis of the entire MCU, and I still want to see that.
01:08:07
Speaker
Right, and I think there was something maybe at some con where he did something like that up to a point. I think I heard that on, I don't know when or where that was, but yeah, it would be amusing if they had that. I mean, up till now though, that would be crazy long without how much it's grown and expanded since then. Oh yeah, there is, I just found it. Luis recapping the entire MCU. So I'm gonna have to look that up later after we finish recording.
01:08:37
Speaker
Yeah, talking about... Oh, also another great addition to the cast is Randall Park is Jimmy Wu. He cracked me up every... I love Randall Park. And seeing him in this was just such a treat and like how he's...
01:08:52
Speaker
is how he tries to explain it to Cassie very simply he's like well you have you have rules at your school like you're not supposed to draw on the walls well your daddy went to went to Germany with Captain America and drew out the walls that violated section that blah blah blah the Sokovia course yeah that was that was pretty good yeah he does it like in such a it's almost a deadpan way to take like take this nonsense he's spewing so seriously another thing with um Jimmy though I noticed I'm like
01:09:19
Speaker
What are they doing with this? Is this based on anything? There were lines of his where he's talking in old, old-timey words. He's like, what, the Dickens? And there's some malarkey. That's an interesting character attribute that he's usually really old, old-timey language.
01:09:41
Speaker
I wonder if, I'm not sure if that was a script choice or if that was Park's choice, but I wonder if it was inspired by the fact that Jimmy Woo is such an old character in the comics. I mean, I believe he's originally from the golden age. And- The fifties, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And in the comics, you know, he later becomes like the head of the agents of Atlas, which is like the bunch of golden age heroes from Marvel or timely comics back then. So yeah, I wonder how much of that was a connection to that maybe,
01:10:09
Speaker
but also just like his character, like the whole thing he says, you know, they're just trying to play him as like this kind of, you know, button down type of character who nonetheless has like this, this goofy side to him. And I liked him. I thought he was even when he's trying to do the close up magic himself. Yeah, he's always came like a
01:10:31
Speaker
Yeah, that became like a defining feature of his, even though he took it from Scott, but like when he shows up in WandaVision, he does a little trick and it's like, oh, I guess it's a Jimmy Woo thing now. There was a, at when WandaVision was coming out, I remember people were saying that, and this is something I'd still love to see like Jimmy Woo and Darcy in like their own show together. And I think that would be, it'd be so much fun to see them interacting like that. And, um,
01:10:56
Speaker
And just like the little lines he has with the inter exchanges with Paul Rudd in this, like when he says at the end.
01:11:03
Speaker
Scott's like, oh, I thought you might like, you know, seem around like you're gonna take me out to dinner or something. He's like, no, no, why would I do this? Like, do you want to go to dinner, though? It's this awkward little exchange was like, yeah, all right, I'll see you.
Ant-Man's Family and Technology
01:11:14
Speaker
I was like, where? When? Because, you know, it's just like a thing you say or he's sounding like a tough guy. Like, I got my eye on you. And if you slip up, I'll get you. But then in the context of it where he's just purely innocent and everything's wrapped up like, OK, what?
01:11:31
Speaker
That's another thing I wanted to mention too is Bobby Cannavale as the new husband, Cassie's stepfather. I love what they did in this too.
01:11:41
Speaker
This picks up from the, Paxton, this is named Paxton, but this picks up from the end of the first movie where you find out that, because the first movie it kind of plays it like, okay, he's just like the dickish, you know, new husband, stepfather. And they did that in the comics too, like the, we had covered the astonishing Ant-Man run that Nick Spencer did in the Patreon show a while back. And we had, and I talked about how it'd been annoying in that, how like, you know, you've got this very classic,
01:12:11
Speaker
you know, ex-wife relationship where her and her new husband are like kind of like antagonistic towards the main character. And they don't do that in this. Like you find out at the end of Ant-Man that it's not that Paxton hates Scott. It's just, he really is trying to do the right thing. And when he finds out Scott is really a good guy, he turns it, he changes his opinion on him and he goes to bat for him. And in this one too, right? He's always there on Scott's side. I love that about that.
01:12:38
Speaker
Yeah and like and like and then some like I was noting how like in here he's like running and giving him a hug like when they're first seeing each other and then like in the ending with like the happy partridge family montage like he's like he's so buddy buddy with him it's like come in get you know big bear hug so it is a it's quite a 180 from how he's initially portrayed in the first movie yeah yeah
01:13:04
Speaker
So I did like that as a different way of playing that relationship. Because not all divorces in antagonism. I'm divorced myself. My ex-wife and I, not my current wife. My kids are from my current marriage. But my ex-wife and I, you know,
01:13:19
Speaker
We had an amicable split. Sometimes things just don't work out and it's nobody's fault. You don't have to be angry. So I did like that they're showing that with these characters. And that was, again, another thing that I missed in Quantum Mania is the fact that we don't have those characters, those human civilian characters in this. So we don't have Judy Greer as Maggie. And she's great in these movies too. I miss seeing her in Quantum Mania as well. But yeah, she's always great.
01:13:52
Speaker
Another thing I wanted to mention, probably the last thing I really wanted to touch on was the shrinking aspect.
01:13:57
Speaker
I love how innovative they get with the shrinking technology in ways that you don't see often even in the comic books, right? Like him shrinking down his lab and tearing away in like a suitcase or having like the house in the box at the end and then just resizing it up or just like having all the cars in like this toy box and they just pull out whenever they need it and just being able to shrink it when they're driving it. All of that stuff I thought was handled perfectly well.
01:14:28
Speaker
Yeah, I made some notes on that too because some of my notes were just like trying to like think of things to say during this recording and like questioning some of it because I mean, obviously again, it's superhero comics and you gotta suspend disbelief a little bit. But I'm also just like, well, how did that work? Like when Louise, she's like, oh, look in the case and pick out a car.
01:14:54
Speaker
How did he grow the car initially? I know when he's in the car, there's like a lever that can shrink it and then grow it, but where did he have like Pym particles or whatever to grow the car to full size in the first place? Or also just like- You know, that's a good point. I didn't even notice that. How do the things they shoot out like know exactly what to shrink or grow? Like, you know, where does it start and stop with his technology with the Pym shrink? Like if you shoot it at a building,
01:15:22
Speaker
it knows to shrink everything inside it. Like, where does the connection start? Like, and also when you shrink, it knows to shrink your clothing. You know, it's like, where's the, how far does like this sort of aura of shrinking and growing go? So, I mean, that's again, that's, you know, you gotta just let it be comic stuff at that point. But I'm just, you know, just thinking about that with some of the stuff I was watching. It's comic science is what it is. You know, just same reason why radiation turned to give you superpowers.
01:15:51
Speaker
Yeah, then I'm like, oh, go ahead. Sometimes you just got it. I was just gonna say sometimes you just got to go. You just got to roll with it. Yeah, because then I was like looking at things and just again trying to think of content, you know, while we're talking for tonight. And like, who had a Hello Kitty Pez lying around? Where was that from? Like, that's convenient. They use it. At first, I thought maybe that was Cassie's, but you're right. They're not in Scott's car. So that's a good point.
01:16:20
Speaker
Yeah. But yeah, I thought all that shrinking stuff handled well. The action, again, they took it up a notch. That was one of the things I loved about the first one was how well they found ways to utilize. And stuff that I never thought would make it into a movie, like the ants, actually using real controlling the ants and all that. I figured when they make an Ant-Man movie, they're not going to have any of that stuff. But they do, and they make it work. And I was really surprised they were able to make that work.
01:16:48
Speaker
uh and then they they bring that back here and also in quantum mania too right i love that line when hank comes in with knees like i just like ants yeah i mean that's you know quarter the character and you know it's in his name and so uh you might as well use it and embrace that
01:17:05
Speaker
you know, really super comic bookie stuff. And I mean, in quantum mania, especially you're, you're going, you're going for you're swinging for the fences with the, the wild out there stuff of this little pocket dimension that's underneath everything. So you can go with, you know, giant mechanized, you know, hands. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And also one
01:17:28
Speaker
The other final thing I want to I do remember talking about funny moments when when Scott's suit is malfunctioning and he shrinks down to the size of a little kid. They have to give him the sweatshirt and everything he runs into the car climbs in that anxious like hey champ how was school today. It is a funny scene but it's also it's also odd because like he's not quite right of a little kid he's like a small man that's kind of kind of the general height of a kid.
01:17:52
Speaker
but the proportions are different and it's just kind of strange looking. But yeah, I remember watching that and just being real silly. Then like the guy wants the whole pass and then he just runs away and he's just like kind of shrugs. It's like, no, I'm not getting paid enough for this, but that's this guy, Brian Husky. He's a, you know, comedian. People probably saw him on like the VH1 talking head shows a bunch back in like the early 2000s. I actually saw him
01:18:18
Speaker
as part of, I think it was a sketch group called the Naked Babies. I don't think they were improv. I think they were sketch. But yeah, like way back when, you know, before, like also Rob Cordry, who, you know, was on the Daily Show and he's done a lot of stuff. He was in this group. Yeah, we saw them perform live back like before that these guys all went and did big things. And then also,
01:18:40
Speaker
Another cameo is Tim Heidecker. He's like the tour guide on the boat from Tim and Eric. So, you know, I think Peyton Reed's probably friends with him too.
01:18:50
Speaker
The guy I mentioned earlier, my friend Tom Sharpley, who I went to the con with, being good friends with Peyton, he was actually originally in the first Ant-Man in like a montage that got cut. And then he filmed the scene for this one where him and his comedy partner, this guy, John Worster, they both do these comedy bits on the radio show that Tom's the host of. They were like drivers for Sonny during the chase scene. That got cut, so he keeps getting cut for these movies.
01:19:19
Speaker
Then he was going to shoot a film, uh, he was going to shoot a scene for quantum media and then they're getting ready to for wardrobe and stuff. And then they had to, this was, you know, within the past few years, they had to do like the mandatory COVID test and he had COVID so he couldn't do it.
01:19:34
Speaker
And then eventually, you know, they were going to try again. And then, you know, before he could even shoot something, Peyton told him that that scene was cut. So he's been cut left to right. But eventually, eventually, eventually they shot something. And he's in quantum mania for like a few seconds when Bill Murray's character's ship is coming. And he's like an alien at a table and that sort of like little cantina bar type place. And like the air is blowing on him. And so he isn't that much.
01:20:03
Speaker
So he's in that movie. Brian Husky, I remembered him. I just had to look it up now. But I remembered him from Veep. He played that Leon, the journalist who's always causing trouble for them. So that's the thing I knew him most from. Yeah, a lot of, and what was I going to say? Oh, Elias Starr. I'm glad that they brought, that's another connection to Hank Pym, right? He was
01:20:28
Speaker
Egghead is his supervillain name in the comics, but he was one of Ant-Man's, I think, first villains, if I'm not mistaken, back in the old Ant-Man comics and the Tales to Astonish. And so it was a cool scene that they had brought that connection in to link it to one of Ant-Man's villains in the comics, too. Wait, he was in Ant-Man and the Wasp? Yeah, he was the Ghost Father.
01:20:52
Speaker
Oh, okay, I didn't I didn't know that didn't make that connection. So yeah, I just wasn't aware it was not a name that was familiar. So I thought it was just like a guy. It was just a random, you know, employee. So that's cool. But again, you know, again, it's Marvel using a name and just looking in there. And is it related to the character? Is it not? Oh, just like, oh, well, in this case, it is because he was a he was a scientist in the comics. He was an enemy of Hank Pam's arrival originally. So yeah, it definitely fits with that character.
01:21:19
Speaker
just altered a little bit so that they're not making him the villain. They're making his daughter the villain instead. But yeah, because I mean, in the comics, he's his name is Egghead, right? It's kind of tough to make. Yeah, they actually recently. Oh, sorry. I was just going to say, I'm like, so you know what? I mean, they might make him a scientist type thing, but I think they were trying to avoid something because they had Darren Cross and the first one is Hanks protege. So I think they wanted to avoid
01:21:48
Speaker
retreading that same ground, so instead they decided to have his daughter and have her whole thing instead. Yeah, I was just going to mention that they recently revealed a Marvel Legends action figure of Egghead.
01:22:01
Speaker
comic based so like oh it's they it shows how deep they're going with some of this stuff so like of that wave it's mostly quantum mania based so they have you know scott um kang and um you know the build the figure is cassie but large i forget who else is in it but then they have a few comic i would have thought that build the figure would be modok i would have been my
01:22:23
Speaker
expectation maybe yeah i mean they did a like a deluxe release of comic modog not too long ago so maybe they're spacing that out maybe they will get to a con uh maybe they will get to a movie one at some point but i don't know but um but yeah they have a few comic ones in there and for me i stopped collecting the mcu figures a long time ago it's just too much to keep up with and i'm more devoted to the comic ones and you gotta prioritize i mean you were talking about the sales
01:22:50
Speaker
Uh, of like the trades and stuff for me right now, I can only buy Marvel legends when they're on sale. The current prices are crazy. And you know, also I can, I can go on a whole rant about it. Cause now like the ones they've, some of the ones they've revealed down the pike, like it looks like you're getting less value for more money. Sometimes like you try to justify $25 per figure, but at least you were, you were getting enough stuff, but some of the ones coming out now, like
01:23:17
Speaker
into the spider verse wave, there's not even a bill to figure wave to it. And just like maybe you get one extra pair of hands and that's it. And it just looks so bare bones and it's like really going to charge that much for that. But yeah, so my point was just they're out, they are making an egghead and it looked appealing because it's an obscure character and you don't get a chance to get a toy of someone like that often. But again, he's not a top priority. So if and when I ever get him, it's going to be down the road, if anything.
Ant-Man's Quantum Realm and Post-Credit Scenes
01:23:46
Speaker
Yeah.
01:23:47
Speaker
Okay, I think any final things you wanted to say about Ant-Man and the Wasp? Let me just quick pull up my notes and see if there was anything else that I noticed. Context of these days when, you know, Bill's trying to convince Ghost not to do what she's gonna do towards the end. He's like, we gotta find another way. And she goes, this is the way. And I'm like, oh, is she a Mandalorian?
01:24:22
Speaker
And oh another thing you know this is again it could be nitpicky and stuff and they they try to phrase it in a way where it's just like just uh you know just that's it you know just ignore it what they talk about i think they did in the first movie too and then this one time works differently in the quantum realm
01:24:41
Speaker
It's just such vague enough to try to let you use it to get away with it. She ages in real time in the quantum realm. But then they say the time works differently. And then Scott gets trapped there. Five years our time, what? Five minutes his time. So it works differently depending on the scenario we needed to basically.
01:25:00
Speaker
It's whatever yeah, it's whatever the plot calls for although I understand in Scott's case because Paul Rudd apparently doesn't age So he could be down there for a hundred years. Nobody would else that's true and then like in like the setup for the the mid credits scene She says like, you know Jan says don't get sucked into a time vortex We won't be able to save you and that sounds like the most super foreshadowy line ever
01:25:23
Speaker
I don't know if that's supposed to be what happened to because it's not about a time for text. It's about them disappearing in the snap. But it just sounds like that's like hint hint. This is exactly the thing that's going to happen.
01:25:38
Speaker
And then the post credits scene that we see, it's odd because sometimes when they did these movies, like the mid credits was the setup scene and the post credits was like a goofy joke. So in this one we get them disappearing while he's in the quantum realm still as a result of the snap as this was between Infinity War and Endgame. But then the post credit scene is still like in that feeling of post snap where it starts off and you're seeing the streets are empty and the house is empty and it's got like an emergency broadcast symbol signal playing on the TV.
01:26:08
Speaker
But then it goes up and it's the big ants still playing the drums. It's like half serious, dark, moody, and then also half super silly goofy jokes. It was just a very different mixed vibe watching that.
01:26:24
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think final thoughts like Insummation, I think this is a, it's a fun sequel. It's not as good as the original Ant-Man. I think that's still like the best of this trilogy, but it's still a nice follow-up. There's some definite good things in it. I thought like, honestly, the stuff, the character stuff is the most interesting thing in this movie for me. Scott's interactions with Hank and with Hope.
01:26:49
Speaker
uh, Hank's interactions with Bill and we get to see a little bit more of Hank's background and, you know, kind of like his own problems and all of that was really good. And I, I thought the, yeah, the, the stuff with the ghost, it was not as, I wasn't as into that as I was in this, the other character dynamics as opposed to the first one where I'm, I was equally invested in both the character dynamics and the overall storyline.
01:27:16
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, you make some good points. And, you know, even in, you know, they have the tension with Hank and Bill, but even like they kind of reconcile towards the end and, you know, everything's good and they're helping out and they're working for the good cause.
Future of MCU Villains and Thunderbolts
01:27:30
Speaker
And Ghost now, like she goes into the win. Is she in Thunderbolts? I think so, right? Yeah, they've announced that she's in Thunderbolts.
01:27:38
Speaker
Yeah, because I know she was, well, not she, but Ghost was in an iteration of the Thunderbolts in the comics. So it will be interesting picking up with her, seeing where she's at at this point in the timeline. Because again, otherwise, she's just been sort of like this forgotten character that, you know, they just now they're gonna have to fill in the gap of what's her current deal.
01:28:00
Speaker
That's something I found myself wondering about at the end when we got to the end here, because, you know, in that in that mid-credits scene, you know, Scott says they're going into the quantum realm to get these healing particles to help to help Ava. And then we hear no mention of that at all. Oh, yes. No mention of any quantum media and then or anything. And then and now we're going to see her in Thunderbolt. So I am wondering what's what what's going to happen to her? What's her situation going to have been?
01:28:26
Speaker
Did she get blipped with or did she not get if she did get blipped then what is what happened her after she came back? So these are I'm really curious to see how they play this up in Thunderbolts Yeah, I forgot to mention that because that thought crossed my mind to where they have like, okay So first Jan kind of gives her like this magical healing touch that I guess being the quantum realm grants you but then also they still seem to need some particles that are in there still and then he goes in and then he gets trapped and
01:28:54
Speaker
And then five years go by. So like that means she never gets those healing particles. So you'd have to assume that she would be blipped for the sake of Marvel and what they want to do. Otherwise she, she could, I guess probably would have died in that time, not those particles. So if they were, if they were a necessary thing to keep her going, if the magic fingers didn't fully cure her of her condition, then she would have died in those five years.
01:29:22
Speaker
if she was relying on the healing particles. So I would imagine she was gone and then came back after Endgame. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, so I'm curious to see what they do with that. I mean, I'm curious about where they go with Thunderbolts in general, because obviously they're not going with the original music Bagley situation. So it seems like they're doing more the Ellis post-Civil War version where it was more of a Suicide Squad type thing.
01:29:52
Speaker
Uh, we'll be curious to see how they do it. Yeah, definitely. Like, um, one thing that's bothered me about the MCU, especially early on was, uh, how often they killed off their villains. There were a lot of one and done villains outside of like low key where it's like, you know, a lot of the Avengers movies are.
01:30:10
Speaker
Avengers versus CGI army of disposable henchmen, you know, the first one was Chitauri second one was ultra Ultron drones Then it got to be a little different with Thanos and you know, he's got some actual characters They had to fight that have names and look different
01:30:26
Speaker
But you know, I thought wouldn't it have been great if they had like villains here and there and then Villains team up we get a masters of evil where you know You actually get a team of bad guys fighting a team of heroes where it's not like where obviously in the first Avengers It's not like they're gonna have the team fight just Loki because then there's really no contest I mean he could use his magic and trickery, but if he's going up against all you know
01:30:52
Speaker
Is it six of them or five of them? Like he wouldn't stand a chance between, you know, their combined might. So they had to give the CGI army. But like if they had Baron Zemo and he's got, you know, a bunch of, you know, different assorted villains that had been sprinkled in earlier and now they team up because, hey, let's pull our resources. We haven't been able to take them down on our own. But yeah, and then also without Masters of Evil, you can't get the original intention of the Thunderbolts where their Masters of Evil pretend.
01:31:22
Speaker
Pretending to be heroes and yeah, yeah, so I'm very curious where they're gonna go in this iteration especially cuz I Think it's other people agree with it there. Maybe there could have been a better lineup with some of them I mean like like a few of them are like Just like super spies like it's not enough mixed up. It doesn't feel like a good enough mix You got a few characters from the Black Widow, you know, and then you got you know Bucky and
01:31:50
Speaker
Yeah, it would have been more interesting if they were a little more varied. But hey, it could be really good. I just don't know what to expect with Helen. No, I agree. Yeah, I think there would have been. I wish we could have gotten a little bit more set up for some of that. And it is nice we're getting some of these characters coming in now. We're getting Ghost come back. We're getting Red Guardian come back.
01:32:17
Speaker
Is the abomination part of that crew? I'm just double checking the cast list. I don't think so. I don't think so. You know, that's one who would have been good, probably, to mix it up. He would have been like their Hulk, basically. Right, yeah. They've got...
01:32:36
Speaker
Uh, why can't they just have this? All right. I'll look up the cast later, but yeah, I was kind of disappointed that we don't see more of who these characters are going to be. Um, but it is nice. We're getting to see some of these characters coming in here and there. Like we're getting, um, you know, we had bad truck come back and, uh, Falcon winter soldier. Unfortunately they killed him off. It was, it was nice to get him back for at least that little bit.
01:32:59
Speaker
Yeah, again, so yeah, it's nice to see a villain return in a new thing, but then they still end up killing him out, so he got a little bit more than a lot of the villains, but still. So okay, I just pulled up at least this concept art. So you've got Val, Julia Louis-Dreyfus is there, Nick Fury leader. You got Ghost, you got Red Guardian, you got Yelena, Black Widow. You got Bucky, you got US Agent, and you got Taskmaster. Mm-hmm, yeah.
01:33:27
Speaker
And also I'd heard something, Steven Yen from Walking Dead is playing a character. I can't remember who he's playing off the top of my head though. Has it been revealed or? I'm not sure if it's been revealed. I thought they were talking about it, but I'm gonna look that up and double check. But yeah, and also we're getting Harrison Ford as Thunderbolt Ross, which is leading to rumors that he'll be the Red Hulk in it. Red Hulk, yeah. He was leader of the team as well at one point.
01:33:55
Speaker
I heard he's not going to have the mustache and that's kind of disappointing. I mean, how do you do thunderbolt rose without the mustache? I think I saw that they, you know, they've started filming and I guess he doesn't have it. But, you know, it would have been nice for consistency. But and just because it's very iconic with that character, except though he does lose it somehow when he turns into Red Hulk and then regrows it. Yeah.
01:34:19
Speaker
That was such a weird series. Oh, that whole storyline, I hated it. They dragged that so-called mystery on way too long, and I thought it was a terrible character. I hated the character. Yeah, same here. I mean, Jeff Loeb's later stuff has just not been up to what his earlier stuff was. Oh, yeah, you got someone that, what did he do that was, oh, like the Long Halloween and stuff like that, that he did. Long Halloween, oh, yeah.
01:34:49
Speaker
That's like very revered and then you've got Hulk. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, Zach, do you have anything you'd like to promote?
Podcast and Social Media Promotion
01:34:59
Speaker
Anywhere you'd like to have listeners follow you or anything like that? I mean, I'm, you know, my name at Zach Waller. I'm on Twitter. I'm on TikTok. Both of them are at Zach Waller. I've got, you know, I've got, you know, stuff other places.
01:35:17
Speaker
not too much I could think of but otherwise hey keep an eye out for zany zach's magical mayhem and zany zach the jello the yeah I'll start over keep an eye out for zany zach the jolly jester's magical mayhem and puppet pandemonium if you have a young kid
01:35:33
Speaker
and you want a birthday party with some magic and some puppets, you know, if you're in the tri-state area, I could be live, otherwise we could see about working out a web stream or something like that. So, you know, check me out and I'll see if we can do a party show for you.
01:35:50
Speaker
Okay, great. All right. Well, Zach, thanks so much for coming on. We'll have links to your social media and stuff in the show notes. Anybody who's interesting can check those out. As for us, SuperheroCinephiles.com is the website, SuperCinemapod on Twitter and Instagram. And if you sign up for the Patreon, you get these episodes a week in advance, no ads, and also you get access to the Patreon show, SuperheroCinephiles Book Club, where we talk about comic books, graphic novels.
01:36:18
Speaker
We're trying to have Zach on to talk about Age of Apocalypse. We're trying to work out a time for that You know because we record these the main show so far in advance. Maybe it'll already be up by that point We'll see how things work out But anyway that does it for us now. Thanks so much for listening and we'll talk to you next time
01:36:36
Speaker
If you enjoy the Superhero Cinephiles, then you'll also love my companion podcast, the Superhero Cinephiles Book Club. All my Patreon subscribers get access to this exclusive podcast where I review superhero comics and graphic novels. Not sure what comics you want to read next or what you should dive into? I've got you covered on that. I'll be doing reviews, recommendations, and also talking to you about useful entry points if you're interested in reading some comics but don't know where you should start. Plus, you'll get access to all episodes of the main show a week before everyone else.
01:37:03
Speaker
On all of this for as little as just a dollar a month, all you have to do is go to patreon.com slash supercinemahot and you can sign up at any subscription amount to get started. Thanks so much for your support and please don't forget to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
01:37:40
Speaker
Thank you for listening and as always good night. Good evening. God bless.