Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to The Psychic Apprentice.
Speaker: The Psychic Apprentice is hosted by Amber Hadley, a novice psychic who is on a mission to become a successful and effective medium.
Speaker: Each episode features a different guest who is an expert in the field of mediumship, psychic abilities, or paranormal phenomena.
Speaker: Together we'll learn from these guests and apply their teachings to our own journeys of psychic development.
Speaker: Sit back, listen, and learn with us.
Speaker: Welcome to The Psychic Apprentice, where you deep dive with me, Amber, in anything that has to do with mediumship, psychic abilities, or the occult.
Speaker: We are here with Liz Enten.
Speaker: She is an entrepreneur.
Speaker: Author and podcast host, her book is called What the Fuck Just Happened?
Speaker: A Sciency Skeptic Explores Grief, Healing, and Evidence of an Afterlife.
Speaker: Her podcast is also What the Fuck Just Happened?
Speaker: All about the afterlife.
Speaker: No woo.
Speaker: I love that title.
Speaker: I think that's wonderful.
Speaker: No woo.
Speaker: I think that that's kind of a phrase or word that gets attached to people who are into mediumship and psychic ability or the occult.
Speaker: And I was really excited to have you on the episode today because I think this is a side that a lot of us don't get to talk about or really dive into.
Speaker: In another episode, I talk about why being a skeptic is important to your practice and to your abilities.
Speaker: So I'm really excited to kind of hear your point of view as a skeptic, as somebody who...
Speaker: really identifies as an atheist, if I'm correct.
Speaker: Is that right?
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: Gotcha.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And so tell me how you kind of got to this point, why you wrote this book and sort of how you got to having this kind of contact with mediums and really diving into the research connected to that.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: Well, so as I said, I'm atheist, skeptic.
Speaker: I was raised culturally Jewish.
Speaker: Dad was Jewish.
Speaker: Mom was Protestant.
Speaker: But religion was just culture.
Speaker: Something like an afterlife or God.
Speaker: That was just like the tooth fairy.
Speaker: We weren't an atheist.
Speaker: We were just in New York, a very secular culture.
Speaker: It was just irrelevant.
Speaker: And then in 2015, unfortunately, my dad passed away.
Speaker: my very first thought immediately was, and this isn't logical.
Speaker: I'm not saying I literally thought I'd go home and build a time machine, but my very first thought was, okay, so much of science fiction comes true and time travel is a huge part of science fiction.
Speaker: Is there any way that there's some way to time travel?
Speaker: Because if people were doing it, we'd have no idea.
Speaker: And so there'd be some way to get my dad to 2000 years down the line where medicine's a whole other thing.
Speaker: thing and this wasn't like I'm really gonna do this like equivalent of talking to his doctor to find a medicine today but it's one of those sort of like foggy briefy brain desperate let me just read this and yeah so that's one of the first things I found is a lot of Einstein's theories of time relativity and while it's not really practical to time travel you can in theory you if you were to travel close to the speed of light or
Speaker: some way we found to break the time barrier, which as of now we absolutely can't, or the light barrier, sorry.
Speaker: Time would alter.
Speaker: That's a whole conversation in and of itself.
Speaker: So I'm not going to go into that, but that was... Sorry?
Speaker: It connected sort of to string theory, right?
Speaker: Is that part of what you're referencing?
Speaker: Well, this part was just related to time travel, Einstein's...
Speaker: twin experiment, I go to it a little more, such as if someone was to travel close to the speed of light, if you took two twins and one traveled close to the speed of light, they would age at a different rate.
Speaker: The numbers are going to be off that I'm going to share, but this is the concept.
Speaker: Let's say they traveled, the twin traveling close to the speed of light was traveling for
Speaker: two years, it would be 20 years on Earth.
Speaker: And that just changes our whole concept of time.
Speaker: And then I read more about string theory as much as I can understand, which shows are just living in all these multiple dimensions.
Speaker: I even found a video on shadow people as if there's other people living on
Speaker: these other universes reflecting onto ours, which would sound crazy, except that was Stephen Hawking discussing that.
Speaker: You go down a rabbit hole, right?
Speaker: And you start to realize that so much more is possible than what we understand.
Speaker: So much more than we perceive.
Speaker: And even just the most basic level, like dogs hear things we can't.
Speaker: We cannot see infrared and ultraviolet, but are there, we can measure those, but are there rays way past those that our technology can't even measure?
Speaker: There's many areas that are out there that we can't even imagine, right?
Speaker: We know that they're there, but there's no way to picture that in your mind.
Speaker: There's no point of reference.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So, yeah, it's crazy.
Speaker: It's crazy when you really start to get into it.
Speaker: I think when I started kind of falling down a little bit of that rabbit hole as well, I started reading a little bit of Michio Kaku's books, and he talks a lot about that as well.
Speaker: And so then when you start to look at...
Speaker: all of these theories, mediumship and psychic ability doesn't seem so crazy at that point, right?
Speaker: Like if there's things that we can't see, hear, or feel that other beings or even animals that we live with side by side every day can, then why is this what we're doing?
Speaker: Why does that seem so off base?
Speaker: Why does that seem so far away?
Speaker: It's a great, wonderful point to start at.
Speaker: So how did you get to mediumship
Speaker: in general.
Speaker: So you're going through kind of time travel and all of that.
Speaker: Where did you end up?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So first of all, I'll just add that I'm also obsessed with Michio Kako.
Speaker: He's amazing.
Speaker: I read a lot.
Speaker: That was among one of the people I was obsessively reading.
Speaker: And so, yeah, it's kind of a leap to go from time to
Speaker: Einstein theory for relativity to mediumship, but it's, it actually isn't that much belief when you really think about it.
Speaker: Like 500 Wikipedia pages in a night.
Speaker: Like, you know, you can see how it's connected.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: The Wikipedia, you know, they don't really.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, they don't really respect the parapsychology, even the very serious.
Speaker: So if you do look at Wikipedia, don't get discouraged if you look up any of this.
Speaker: There's a whole book by...
Speaker: a man called Craig Wheeler, is it pronounced Weiler, Craig Weiler, W-E-I-L-E-R, that will explain why you should not get discouraged if you start looking at Wikipedia and it knocks all of this, because that was actually something that happened to me.
Speaker: I got very discouraged looking at Wikipedia.
Speaker: So just anyone in grief or, well, I guess this is mainly directed to mediums, but anyone who is really questioning and don't
Speaker: get discouraged by Wikipedia essentially.
Speaker: But yeah.
Speaker: So then I guess my, how this got to mediumship was my very first thought was after reading about time travel was okay.
Speaker: So everything we take for granted or I take for granted, it's not the way that I took for granted that the world is exactly how my senses tell me it is.
Speaker: And yeah,
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I was like, okay, so this is all saying it isn't.
Speaker: And then my very next thought, which I have since changed my mind on this, but I thought, well, consciousness is created by a brain and brain neurons.
Speaker: And this happened to me once.
Speaker: Why could this never happen again?
Speaker: And I wouldn't get to be myself again.
Speaker: My dad wouldn't get to be himself, but at least get to experience consciousness as a completely different human being.
Speaker: And yeah,
Speaker: When your only other frame of reference is total obliteration, that is significantly better.
Speaker: So I Googled that and that's where I found like mediumship because I found the research of Dr. Jim Tucker and the late Dr. Ian Stevenson, child psychiatrists studying cases of kids with past life memories, who are professors of child psychiatry as well, are in work as Dr. Ian Stevenson has since passed.
Speaker: But, and they were professors at the University of Virginia.
Speaker: And there's a whole research department at the University of Virginia that studied, called the Division of Perceptual Studies.
Speaker: They study cases of kids with past life memories.
Speaker: They study mediumship, near-death experiences.
Speaker: So I was like, holy fuck, there's like, actually...
Speaker: real, valid, yes, and valid seeing people and they're getting data.
Speaker: I mean, it wasn't like an overnight.
Speaker: I started reading and reading and reading.
Speaker: And after reading everything, Dr. Ian Stevenson, Dr. Jim Tucker, um,
Speaker: Dr. Bruce Grayson, who studies near-death experiences.
Speaker: I also found, as well as Division of Perceptual Studies, the Winbridge Institute, where anyone who's a medium needs to look up Dr. Julie Weishel and Mark Bacuzzi.
Speaker: They are founders of the Winbridge Institute, and they conduct up to quintuple-blinded, peer-reviewed studies on psychic mediums.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: And Dr. Julie.
Speaker: I don't think I even heard quintuple blind.
Speaker: Oh my God.
Speaker: They are amazing.
Speaker: To find evidence for something that so many people have like an inherent bias against already, you would need to take those extra steps.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So to really show like, Hey, there's no, there's no kink in our data here.
Speaker: Like we, we really went in, in a very scientific way.
Speaker: Oh my God, there are no holes in her data because I honestly, when I think of Dr. Julie Byschel and Mark Bucutsey and Winbridge, I cannot imagine having gotten through my early grief without them as well as Division of Perceptual Studies research because they have...
Speaker: The majority of their studies are free online.
Speaker: Some are published in journals, so they don't have the option to make them free.
Speaker: If you're really science-y, some are written in a really science tone.
Speaker: Some are written in a more layperson tone.
Speaker: And Dr. Beishel has a bunch of books out.
Speaker: Mark Bacuzzi as well has a new book out.
Speaker: So just their books are, and studies are just, I don't even have words.
Speaker: When I read them, I was like, this is amazing.
Speaker: The most profound worldview changing stuff I've ever read.
Speaker: Beyond then.
Speaker: Beyond.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: So what kind of, what kind of, um,
Speaker: what did you settle on?
Speaker: Like what, how did that shape your beliefs?
Speaker: What did you start emphatically believing in, in psychic mediums or?
Speaker: Oh no, this was a process.
Speaker: I think I was a very difficult sitter to any mediums out there for a long time.
Speaker: Cause my next, I also don't like the word belief.
Speaker: Like, I don't think I believe anything.
Speaker: I think there is sufficient evidence at this point to conclude.
Speaker: I will say that I am,
Speaker: 100% or like as close to 100% as you can get because I don't think anything's 100%.
Speaker: I'm 100% convinced the laws of the universe are different than we think.
Speaker: I would say I'm 100% convinced that psychic mediums are doing something inexplicable that cannot be explained by the laws of physics as we understand it, that does not involve hot reading or cold reading.
Speaker: And I'm pretty convinced there's an afterlife.
Speaker: There could be, unfortunately, another solution.
Speaker: Like there's a puzzle piece in physics that...
Speaker: hasn't been discovered yet.
Speaker: And it will come up for an explanation for all of this and survival of consciousness is not the answer.
Speaker: But as of now, the, the skeptical answers to what psychic mediums are doing.
Speaker: I'm a hundred percent, a hundred percent convinced is wrong for at least the percentage of psychic mediums.
Speaker: So you said that you were some psychic mediums.
Speaker: So did you do that in the beginning of your journey or after you started reading some of these studies and books that you found?
Speaker: Fairly early on.
Speaker: So when I started reading these books, I was like, I have to see this for myself.
Speaker: Like my heart was in my throat, but I was like, I've got to know.
Speaker: And so I decided to get a reading.
Speaker: So it's kind of a crazy story how it happened.
Speaker: I feel overall, like the puzzle pieces just fit really perfectly.
Speaker: So I went to Winbridge and I was like, I've got to go to one of these mediums.
Speaker: And I went down the list for, I was under the assumption I was going to have to go to about a hundred mediums because also I'll just back up.
Speaker: There is research.
Speaker: There's, I don't know if you've heard of the SPR, the ASPR, the Society for Cyclical Research and the ASPR is the American Society for Cyclical Research.
Speaker: And they have been scientifically investigating mediumship,
Speaker: all of survival of consciousness and psi since the 1800s.
Speaker: And a lot of, when I was reading about that research, that was some of the early research, and they were just testing medium after medium and finding lots of frauds, and then would find someone that just blew them away and was inexplicable.
Speaker: And there's the William James, who studied the medium Leonora Piper, I believe in the late 1800s, said the white crow quote, I don't know if
Speaker: All of you know this, but he I'm paraphrasing, but essentially he said, if there is just one white crow, that would disprove the theory that all crows are black.
Speaker: And that's what he called Leonora Piper, his one white crow.
Speaker: And she, after significant testing, was basically as close to proof as you can get.
Speaker: showed that she was communicating with people and passed away.
Speaker: He at least knew she wasn't cheating and was doing something absolutely inexplicable.
Speaker: So I was under the impression from reading the Society for Cyclical Research Studies, I was most likely going to have to go to piles of mediums before I found something.
Speaker: You had to find your micro, right?
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: And I was like, okay.
Speaker: So I went down the Windbridge list and I was like, I'm going to go to the first one.
Speaker: I live partially in New York and partially in LA and I was in New York at the time.
Speaker: I'm like, I'll just go to the first one.
Speaker: who is based in New York because I want to go in person and I want to watch everything they're doing.
Speaker: And I found this one, Laurel and Jackson.
Speaker: I emailed her to get a reading and then I was like, this is crazy.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: I was debating whether I was going to even reply when they said to get on the wait list because I was like, oh, this is probably nonsense.
Speaker: I could...
Speaker: And spending like in this research, like more money than I have, like hundreds of thousands, a hundred thousand dollars or something doing like study after study and research.
Speaker: When I was like, again, comparing myself to imagining the process done in the 1800s with Dr. Byschel and Mark Bucutzi had already done this.
Speaker: So it was already selected, but I wasn't putting that fully together at that point.
Speaker: And yeah,
Speaker: I, um, so, and then, so I kind of avoided it for a little.
Speaker: And then I got, I reached out to Dr. Diane Hennessy Powell, who is, she does fascinating research.
Speaker: If anyone wants to look into her, she studies psi ability.
Speaker: She works with autistic children who apparently have remarkable psychic, potentially mediumship abilities, just mind blowing.
Speaker: And she gave me also the name of Laura.
Speaker: So I was like, okay, I'm going to get on her wait list, very long wait list.
Speaker: So the reason I bring that up will come up in a minute.
Speaker: And in the meantime, I was like, okay, well, I guess I'll try some other mediums.
Speaker: And I will say coincidentally, probably all of you, if you're mediums listening, will say this was not a coincidence.
Speaker: This was meant to be, but I still say coincidentally, I went to an event with my mom who is like complete skeptic.
Speaker: I mean, completely.
Speaker: It was for one of her colleagues who had passed away.
Speaker: And it was, there was a book about him that was being released and his wife happened to be there.
Speaker: And she was like, you wouldn't believe it.
Speaker: My husband's been communicating with me.
Speaker: I went to this media.
Speaker: My mom's rolling her eyes.
Speaker: It's like, oh, this shit again.
Speaker: You know, it's all my daughter talks about.
Speaker: And I go, so I, of course, freak out.
Speaker: I'm like, I need this woman's name.
Speaker: She wasn't studied by Winbridge.
Speaker: I was expecting nothing.
Speaker: She blew me away, just blew me away.
Speaker: And I was like, there's something she able to tell you what was that experience like?
Speaker: Whatever you feel comfortable sharing.
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: She knew stuff about my dad's personality.
Speaker: She got the initial of his first name.
Speaker: And I think that's evidential.
Speaker: I don't think that should be the only evidence, but some people dismiss initials.
Speaker: But I think.
Speaker: that was strong evidence.
Speaker: And we're together in the whole, right?
Speaker: So that's not the only thing that you, that you get out of it, right?
Speaker: They can get that first initial and then other things, supporting things with that.
Speaker: Other things.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Like she asked who like the initial was and I was like, Oh, that's my dad.
Speaker: And I was like, Oh, why did I say that?
Speaker: Fuck.
Speaker: I just ruined my reading.
Speaker: But then it was thing after thing.
Speaker: She knew, she knew like stuff, all this stuff out his personality.
Speaker: She really captured it.
Speaker: She knew his, um,
Speaker: Well, green.
Speaker: I put, okay, I will use the word color green here because I put green as the color in the books.
Speaker: I disguised certain, it's a few things.
Speaker: So I can keep getting evidential readings.
Speaker: So...
Speaker: I said green was like his color in the box.
Speaker: So I'll stick with green.
Speaker: And she said he's sending bursts of green.
Speaker: And this was a big deal.
Speaker: Like he had a little green room in our apartment.
Speaker: We would always like eat green candy together.
Speaker: She got like, she knew my grandmother had lost a really young child.
Speaker: And let's see, what else did she know?
Speaker: She just stuff.
Speaker: She knew my cat had just passed away.
Speaker: This wasn't, I also had given like basically fake information.
Speaker: I mean, she couldn't have researched all this.
Speaker: Of course I was like, Oh God, facial recognition technology.
Speaker: She's getting all this, but she wouldn't have gotten.
Speaker: my dad's personality or that my cat just passed away or as or not is not going to be able to gather or capture.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Like there's a lot.
Speaker: But even being a marketer myself, like as my day job, there's a ton of information I wish I could pull from Google, but you can't.
Speaker: So when everybody says that you pull all of this stuff from Google, no, I have technologies that my company pays thousands and thousands of dollars for.
Speaker: And we can't pull that.
Speaker: And if we could, we would.
Speaker: You know, oh, my God, that's so good to know.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: OK, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, there's there's data that just cannot be pulled.
Speaker: So when you start seeing those things in a reading and that's really from what I've gathered from mediums is like those are the things that you really want to bring out in a reading because that's what's going to connect with people like you that come to sit.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And that's what really gives that evidence that that consciousness has lived on and that they're still connected to you.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: And I can talk a little bit about just, I'll go into a little bit about like, maybe as a medium, how to deal with a really skeptical sitter.
Speaker: I'll just finish the part about why Laura ended up being so important.
Speaker: So I'm still actually on her waitlist, but she started doing events.
Speaker: I've also had many other readings while I was like, okay, I'm gonna have to wait.
Speaker: for Laura.
Speaker: I was like, at that point, I mean, I still think she's one of the best mediums in the world.
Speaker: But at that point, I was like, Oh, my God, I have to have a reading with Laura, because I was so obsessed with, well, Dr. Byschel has a list.
Speaker: But I was like, between Dr. Byschel and Dr. Hennessy Powell, I was like, I've got to have a reading with her.
Speaker: And right, yeah, I think she's one of the best in the world.
Speaker: But she there are, there's a good group of them that are amongst the best in the world.
Speaker: So I got plenty of amazing readings, I got some terrible readings.
Speaker: But I also then Laura did some workshops and group readings, which ended up being like life changing.
Speaker: I mean, she was wonderful in group readings and then
Speaker: I emailed her after the first one.
Speaker: I will confess, I wrote, you might have some amazing CIA connections.
Speaker: So you've got some sort of connection there.
Speaker: Yeah, that was like one of my opening lines.
Speaker: I'm going to say, I'm not going to dismiss you.
Speaker: You might have some really good CIA connections, but if not, something's going on.
Speaker: And if you know any scientists or research groups that happen to be in New York,
Speaker: or Los Angeles, similar to Winbridge, could I, would you mind giving me their names?
Speaker: Because I've got to get them, like, see what's going on beyond the fact that you might have CIA connections, which, like, I mean, like, I'm friends with all these people now who I once thought had CIA connections, so now it's funny, but it set my tongue in cheek.
Speaker: I was like, she might actually have CIA connections.
Speaker: She does not.
Speaker: She's genuine.
Speaker: Like, blew my mind, and as well as the other people
Speaker: mediums that I've gotten this certain group I've gotten to know.
Speaker: And so she said, check out forever family foundation.
Speaker: And that was like huge life changer.
Speaker: I met my mentors there who one has sadly passed away, but she was like my rock.
Speaker: Fran Ginsburg was one of the co-founders along with her husband, Bob Ginsburg of forever family foundation.
Speaker: And I'll go from there to get into that.
Speaker: I hope mediums have some patience with skeptical sitters.
Speaker: And I now hear the thought in the scenes of how difficult that could be for sometimes for mediums.
Speaker: But when we talked earlier, you mentioned being patient with skeptics.
Speaker: And I think that that's definitely something from like the psychic mediumship point of view that I think is important because.
Speaker: I think on this side, we look at people who come into reading skeptical in one or two ways, either like a challenge.
Speaker: Okay, well, now I have to prove to you that this works or as an annoyance, right?
Speaker: And I think that, I don't think everybody, I'm just being general here, but I think especially in the beginning, like when you're learning and you're maybe still unsure about your abilities and you're kind of coming out into the wild and taking sitters,
Speaker: you're scared of skeptics a little bit, right?
Speaker: Because you feel like they're trying to get that gotcha moment on you.
Speaker: But I want people to hear it from the other point of view and why it's important to embrace the skeptic and to be patient with them.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And that was, I was told a few times and some of the mediums I could sense were a little irritated when they'd say, do you have questions?
Speaker: And they were like, well, that's a gotcha question.
Speaker: I'm not comfortable answering that.
Speaker: And I was like, uh, so yeah,
Speaker: I'll preface by saying there are skeptics that are just assholes and they are trying to get you and they're arrogant.
Speaker: And, you know, we talk a lot in the, my classes that I've taken on this, for example, at the Rhine about the amazing Randy and,
Speaker: I don't know if any of you know him.
Speaker: He posted, he's since passed away, but he posted the million dollar challenge where anyone can actually prove they have abilities.
Speaker: They'll get a million dollars and nobody won.
Speaker: And, but a lot of mediums, there's very good reasons why a lot did not join.
Speaker: You can read, if you're interested, you can read a book called, I forgot the title of it, but it's basically like Randy's challenge by Robert McLaurin.
Speaker: And so if you Google like Randy's challenge, Robert McLaurin, Randy's million dollar challenge, you'll find it.
Speaker: And so there are the ones that like scoff at these abilities and go to mediums and are like, ha ha, let me show you, like, show me this.
Speaker: And they're laughing at you.
Speaker: Pulling people down.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I've known somebody like that, but I think that there's another kind of skeptic, right?
Speaker: And that's just because-
Speaker: they haven't experienced it or, you know, they have a very analytical kind of mind.
Speaker: So they need things proven to them.
Speaker: And I don't think that there is anything wrong with that, honestly.
Speaker: I feel like a lot of people should go into certain situations with that mindset, right?
Speaker: And then you have so much better of an experience at the end if it is proven to you.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And that's kind of the thing.
Speaker: There's another skeptical type of person like myself.
Speaker: I mentioned Forever Family Foundation.
Speaker: Bob Ginsburg, the husband, was skeptical like me.
Speaker: Fran, his wife, was much more open to this and they had lost their daughter.
Speaker: I was going in because I lost my father.
Speaker: I'm going in skeptical.
Speaker: I think
Speaker: The majority of people who go in to get medium readings, and it's probably the majority of people in this country were raised with some form of religion.
Speaker: The idea of an afterlife isn't just completely absurd.
Speaker: To me, to Bob Ginsburg, to a lot of skeptics who come in, who I've met at Forever Family, who are grieving parents.
Speaker: They've lost their child.
Speaker: And they were raised, there was a whole set of people who are raised just thinking, you know, religion was zero part of their lives.
Speaker: Afterlife, zero.
Speaker: It's as realistic as if someone sat down and walked over and was like, by the way, there really is a Santa Claus.
Speaker: And it's that realistic.
Speaker: And it's very logical to think,
Speaker: that consciousness is created by a brain.
Speaker: It's very illogical in many ways to think there's this whole other realm and, you know, it's never been presented in a logical way, not to knock religion.
Speaker: I mean, but it's belief based and it's not presented logically.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: When skeptical people come in there and asking for the proof very often, like think where they're coming from.
Speaker: They probably,
Speaker: we're raised thinking people who were the skeptics were the smart ones.
Speaker: That's what I thought my whole life.
Speaker: Like I'd heard of the Randy's million dollar challenges ago.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Of course it's bullshit.
Speaker: You know that.
Speaker: So anyone would have abilities.
Speaker: I, you know, always thought people like Christopher Hitchens were brilliant, you know, naive, right?
Speaker: Like that's, I think that's a big thing too.
Speaker: Like,
Speaker: You want to be, you want to be somebody who questions things and makes logical decisions and all of that.
Speaker: And that's very much championed just in the world in general, I feel like in a lot of spaces, especially academic spaces.
Speaker: Is it true from what you, like the contact that you've had with people in academia around this, that they really have to fight to prove like their legitimacy in the eyes of
Speaker: the rest of the scientific world.
Speaker: Is that, is that true?
Speaker: Very much.
Speaker: And then I'll just add the one quick thing to what I was saying.
Speaker: People like me or Bob Ginsburg, whose 15 year old daughter had passed away, like the forever family people were our skepticism.
Speaker: If we're challenging, we're not coming from like, gotcha, knock you laugh in your face.
Speaker: We are coming from barely able to get out of bed desperation.
Speaker: And yeah,
Speaker: So if we're doing gotcha questions and we sound cold and are saying yes, no, we've read that's a good way to be a good sitter because you don't want to give evidence.
Speaker: And we are gutted and crushed and desperately hopeful.
Speaker: And so have patience.
Speaker: And then if you want to make contact with your loved one, it's more about making sure that you're making legitimate contact.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And not being taken advantage of.
Speaker: So, I mean, I feel like that's not even not being taken advantage of.
Speaker: That was the last time I think was, oh my God, it's so much more profound than that.
Speaker: It's like, my dad is dead.
Speaker: And there is like a tiny, tiny in the beginning and a group chance that maybe he could survive.
Speaker: And this is like so astronomical and so desperately hopeful.
Speaker: And yeah,
Speaker: I mean, I'm not there.
Speaker: Like, are you taking advantage of me?
Speaker: That's like, I didn't even care compared to what I was trying to find out.
Speaker: I had, you know, it wasn't like, huh, I don't want to be taken advantage of.
Speaker: I don't want you to cheat.
Speaker: It's like, oh my God.
Speaker: Like I was going in as desperate as people were.
Speaker: go into the doctor on that like last day when, or the first day you find out they're not going to make it.
Speaker: Or when you get the call that let's say there was an accident, I lost my dad to an illness, but it was very fast.
Speaker: So it's like when you're going, we skeptics are coming with the kind skeptics, the genuine skeptics are coming with the level of hope and desperation that you're going to that doctor when you're basically told there's no chance.
Speaker: And,
Speaker: we think there's no chance of an afterlife.
Speaker: And we just are like, oh my God, please.
Speaker: It's kind of like looking for a family a little bit.
Speaker: Like it feels like there's no chance or it feels empty, but you're hoping there'll be a miracle cure sort of thing.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It would be a profound dream to be a part of that.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: So for like, well, what was the sign they gave me?
Speaker: Or what was my favorite memory?
Speaker: We're not like, well, what was my favorite memory?
Speaker: You're lying.
Speaker: It's like, yeah, the same tone of voice that if.
Speaker: Yeah, like you were at the doctor and they're like, it's stage for cancer.
Speaker: There's nothing we can do.
Speaker: And you found somebody who's like, wait, there's one new drug that just might work.
Speaker: And there's a 2% chance we are coming back.
Speaker: in that place.
Speaker: So I understand why mediums find skeptics annoying.
Speaker: And there are some that are just jerks, but understand that when we're asking the gotcha questions, we don't mean it that way.
Speaker: We are like, I need this so badly.
Speaker: I think this is so unlikely.
Speaker: Is there anything, any chance?
Speaker: And so I, I think that's an important thing to hear on the other end.
Speaker: I think that
Speaker: I think that a lot of times you could be stuck in your perspective or point of view if you're like a medium and you're working on being able to do this for people or be able to have people sit for you successfully and all of that.
Speaker: The idea of what it is that you're really doing and the people that you're connecting to
Speaker: And the service that you're bringing to the world, and that's the peace that people have, that's helping them through grief that a lot of us couldn't imagine.
Speaker: And it's just, there's so much gravity to that, that I definitely believe it deserves a platform.
Speaker: And I think that every medium that's going into sittings and things should take a moment to try to understand that and bring it into their perspective for sure.
Speaker: Because when you first told me that, it kind of gave me goosebumps.
Speaker: I was like, you know, I know that it's helping people with grief, but hearing it in those terms was like, wow, that's moving.
Speaker: It's moving.
Speaker: And if you get a skeptical person, a really skeptical one, I'm not saying all of them, but some of them, you will change their life in ways that, I mean, a believer can.
Speaker: Or someone who comes in or maybe someone who's like grew up religious or just at least thought, you know, I think like the majority of people, there's probably a God in afterlife.
Speaker: It's sort of part of their lives, but it's not just again, as absurd as the tooth fairy.
Speaker: I'm not saying the connection to their loved one isn't profound for them.
Speaker: I'm not saying you didn't help them and that their grief isn't equal to anyone else's.
Speaker: But if you go in and give evidence to somebody who thought there was zero chance of this, the level of profundity, and if you look at the people who are now
Speaker: changed their life because of this.
Speaker: Like I've done this with my book, you know, and completely changed my life because I was so blown away.
Speaker: Dr. Julie Byschel, who has changed the world with her research.
Speaker: She thought there was zero chance.
Speaker: She was like a pharmacologist and a scientist.
Speaker: And she went out of kind of a desperation herself.
Speaker: Bob Ginsburg.
Speaker: I mean, Fran Ginsburg also changed the world with this, but she was more open to it.
Speaker: Bob thought there was zero chance.
Speaker: Now he and Fran went
Speaker: on and started forever family foundation, which all mediums should look into.
Speaker: They certify mediums.
Speaker: They have a board of scientists.
Speaker: So the ones that go on and then just are like, I didn't believe this.
Speaker: We are then able to talk to people in a way that people who believe this can't.
Speaker: And we,
Speaker: we are then able to sort of translate what you're doing and help grieving people.
Speaker: And I have since then skeptics who've reached out to me and are like, is that really?
Speaker: Like I related to your voice.
Speaker: Is this possibly true?
Speaker: I never would have thought.
Speaker: And I'm can't get out of bed.
Speaker: I'm in so much grief.
Speaker: And then I will talk to them and then they'll go to a medium.
Speaker: So I guess I'm just saying have patience with us because some of the mediums,
Speaker: I mean, they were wonderful and I'm not knocking and but some had tremendous patience and understood and some did not.
Speaker: So.
Speaker: Right, right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So they're stuck in that perspective.
Speaker: I think that's why it's so important to hear.
Speaker: And so.
Speaker: Other skeptics who have turned into scientists and have added their wisdom and their work to the world and this body of work that we're now seeing that keeps getting bigger and bigger and more promising every time I look.
Speaker: When they started this journey into academia and doing these studies and everything.
Speaker: And we mentioned that there is a little bit of a struggle to be taken seriously and the rest of the world of academia.
Speaker: So I guess the question kind of is, is what does that look like and how does that translate into the studies and what it is that they're looking for and how they, they present that to the world?
Speaker: Cause that's kind of like the inside stuff that, that I think a lot of us don't know because we're not, we're not researchers and you've kind of had that inside track being able to
Speaker: to have these relationships with these researchers.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, each one, each study would probably be different.
Speaker: I mean, some are studying psychic mediums, some are studying psi abilities and overall they, because there is so much scoffing in academia against this research, they are more careful.
Speaker: They are
Speaker: The burden of proof, I wish I don't have like exact numbers, but I'll just kind of give some examples.
Speaker: There is more data.
Speaker: I forget which one, which studies, but there is more data that this works than there is, for example, that Tylenol works.
Speaker: And they just have to get so much data.
Speaker: They have to be so, so careful.
Speaker: They have to cross.
Speaker: I mean, every researcher is a very careful cross every data.
Speaker: T almost across every I across every T dot every I person or you don't go into that kind of research like I'm not that precise I couldn't be an actual researcher that's why I try to translate all this for people because my mind processes that type of research very well but
Speaker: I can't do it to that extent that like a statistician can.
Speaker: But yeah, so I guess I'll mention a statistician.
Speaker: For example, some of the research was examined.
Speaker: They brought in Dr. Jessica Utz, who is a professor of statistics and she's a statistician and she didn't really believe any of this.
Speaker: And she was called in to look at the statistics of some of the
Speaker: research on parapsychology and she analyzed the statistics and she was amazed.
Speaker: She said, there's definitely something going on.
Speaker: This is significant results.
Speaker: And
Speaker: We had a dog for two, don't worry.
Speaker: He hates our neighbor's dog.
Speaker: And so he has a little fit every time the dog goes on a walk.
Speaker: So sorry.
Speaker: The dog with the Amazon guy there.
Speaker: They're enemies.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: They should be extra careful and extra make sure everything is really, really carefully peer reviewed.
Speaker: They have everything looked over.
Speaker: There is a story.
Speaker: It was like Yana's name.
Speaker: Sorry.
Speaker: If you can edit this out, I can get the exact name.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: It's Ray Hyman and crap.
Speaker: Sorry.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Let me look this up.
Speaker: Cause this is a. Okay.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So there's a skeptic.
Speaker: I forget what year this study took place, but it was in, I believe like the 60s or 70s.
Speaker: There's a skeptic called Ray Hyman and there is Charles Honerton.
Speaker: And he was doing quite a few parapsychological studies, I believe, at the SBR.
Speaker: And one of the research institutions, there are so many more than you realize.
Speaker: There was one at Stanford for a while, one at Princeton, the...
Speaker: military had the whole Stargate that did remote viewing.
Speaker: I mean, there is just so much more credibility to this.
Speaker: And Ray Hyman challenged Charles Onerton and said, everything you're doing is bullshit.
Speaker: Essentially.
Speaker: You're getting very big, very light summary of this.
Speaker: And so hold on one second.
Speaker: I, sorry, you can just clip this out.
Speaker: It was the Gonsfeld.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So yeah,
Speaker: Charles Onerton was running the Gansfeld experiments, which were different ways of studying psychic abilities and sci-abilities and blocking out sensory input.
Speaker: And Onerton, so Ray Hyman basically said, you're doing very sloppy work.
Speaker: There's no way you're getting real results.
Speaker: So he asked Ray Hyman, the skeptic, to come on and then check my work and tell me what I'm doing wrong and fix it.
Speaker: So they worked together.
Speaker: And Ray Hyman was like, okay, you know what?
Speaker: This isn't sloppy.
Speaker: This is amazing.
Speaker: And he ended up really, at least with that experiment, I don't think he ever came to really believe in afterlife.
Speaker: I'm not sure exactly what he concluded.
Speaker: Saw that it was solid.
Speaker: It was solid research.
Speaker: It was, they weren't cutting corners and things like that, that it was legitimate.
Speaker: Legitimate, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And then I think there's some
Speaker: Unfortunately, and one thing I came to learn is there are a lot of skeptics who say none of this is true, but then they've never gone in and examined it.
Speaker: They...
Speaker: They say it's true without examining.
Speaker: Don't do the work to go in and point out the exact, okay, they're doing this wrong.
Speaker: They're doing that wrong.
Speaker: And I think that that's what, just being a layman and kind of not looking into it even as deeply as you have, have noticed as well.
Speaker: There are people who will say like, it's just not true.
Speaker: There's no evidence for that.
Speaker: And then you have these studies and you say, well, here's some evidence.
Speaker: And then they'll have a blanket term where like, oh, well, that's flawed or whatever.
Speaker: And they don't have details on why.
Speaker: they say that or what they're doing wrong or what's wrong with the studies just as a whole.
Speaker: So it's, I've seen, it's almost kind of like a turning a blind eye to what has been done.
Speaker: And to me, it's, it's incredible.
Speaker: We can hear about scientific study or all of this other stuff, but you don't really hear about these studies and mainstream stuff, unless you're into it and the algorithms have picked that up or you're on newsletters or you're looking like actively, this stuff isn't that easy to find.
Speaker: I mean, people who aren't interested in it, it's not part of their world really.
Speaker: So what I've noticed is people are very surprised.
Speaker: I know that the CIA sort of Stargate stuff that you were talking about, that went out on Vice News.
Speaker: And that was one of the first times something like that came out in like a mainstream news platform.
Speaker: And then everybody was talking about it and they couldn't believe it.
Speaker: It was blowing their mind and all this other stuff.
Speaker: But people have been paying attention or like, yeah, this is similar to research that has been done before or that we're doing now.
Speaker: And I think that once...
Speaker: a platform like Vice decided to actually go out there and publish something like that, it kind of opened a door for people to look more into it.
Speaker: But otherwise, you have this reactionary idea where media outlets won't run it because they immediately think it's quote unquote woo, like your podcast says.
Speaker: It's no woo, right?
Speaker: But that's what people automatically think.
Speaker: They have this bias against it.
Speaker: So it's these newer platforms that are willing to take bigger risks with stories that will talk about this kind of research.
Speaker: And I think that that's such a great change that we're seeing because it's opening up brand new worlds for people.
Speaker: I have a specific question too.
Speaker: I've always kind of wondered this.
Speaker: In these studies, let's say specifically for mediumship or psychic ability, how do they choose...
Speaker: which mediums to study?
Speaker: Is it something people sign up for?
Speaker: Do they go out and look for them based on reputation?
Speaker: Do they have to like push people out that have proved to not really be legitimate or what is the process there?
Speaker: I mean, if, if, if somebody were really psychic and they were interested in being a part of this and they're not researchers, but they're, they're mediums, like how would you even be a part of that?
Speaker: Okay, well, so WinBridge right now, unfortunately, because there's just not enough funding for this, they aren't taking new mediums, but the mediums applied.
Speaker: And part of it was testing.
Speaker: They had to give accurate information under tight controls where they couldn't do cold reading or hot reading.
Speaker: So there's a test.
Speaker: Forever Family Foundation has the same requirements to be certified.
Speaker: You can
Speaker: have to give accurate information.
Speaker: And so there's testing processes.
Speaker: It's not just anyone can come in off the street, though.
Speaker: Maybe there are some studies.
Speaker: I mean, keep looking.
Speaker: I know Yale has a department called the COPE, C-O-P-E, and COPE Project, I believe.
Speaker: I'm not sure if it's still open, but they do some studies with psychic mediums.
Speaker: That's more related to
Speaker: mediumship and schizophrenia of hearing voices, but I'm going to be doing a podcast episode with one of the people who worked on it.
Speaker: There is a difference.
Speaker: They don't think mediums at this point are the same as schizophrenia.
Speaker: Interesting.
Speaker: So they're studying mediumship and schizophrenia side by side and trying to find what could overlap or be like... I don't know yet until...
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: I haven't dealt in enough.
Speaker: I'm going to when I talk to this woman, which I'm so excited to do.
Speaker: But essentially...
Speaker: They've studied schizophrenia.
Speaker: They've studied mediumship.
Speaker: It was more focusing on hearing voices.
Speaker: Okay, so like audio.
Speaker: I believe maybe it's other hallucinations, but essentially they do not think mediums have schizophrenia, which a lot of times mediumship is dismissed as mental illness and people, you know, doctors with the best of intentions are trying to help
Speaker: people understandably, if you truly think someone is suffering from schizophrenia, which is, you know, no fault of their own, it's the sort of brainwaves as a doctor want to help you.
Speaker: Of course, of course.
Speaker: And so it's,
Speaker: I'm hoping, I don't want to speak much about this research because I don't know enough yet.
Speaker: But that's kind of like just showing how the research is evolving, right?
Speaker: Now, like we are going into, okay, so we're trying to prove the efficacy of this or if this works or if this is true to branching out to other topics, right?
Speaker: So the research is kind of building upon itself.
Speaker: so i think that that's super exciting um you mentioned i think you've mentioned the schizophrenia stuff you've mentioned um somebody who researched you know autistic children in connection with psychic ability and all of that and those are the fascinating questions where you get more granular right so at first it's just is this a thing is this real is this true and then once we have a good baseline of study for that
Speaker: That opens the door to so much more research to build on top of that that has to do with different demographics of people.
Speaker: Or there could be studies on when do people usually...
Speaker: get into their psychic gifts, what ages, what kind of groups of people are more prone to it?
Speaker: All of those questions that people like me have, but have no basis to answer it, which, you know, it's in our head.
Speaker: It's just kind of like, you know, we're cavemen and we're like, huh, what creates fire?
Speaker: You know, we have no idea.
Speaker: That's what it feels.
Speaker: It feels like a new frontier, I guess, is kind of what I'm saying.
Speaker: And that's exciting because there's so much in this world that like, you know, that
Speaker: that we have at least the beginnings of answers to.
Speaker: And I think that psychics and mediums for hundreds and hundreds of years, like they've always been questioned.
Speaker: They've always had questions of their own because a lot of us don't even know where this comes from or why we can do it or how we can do it.
Speaker: We just do it.
Speaker: And I think it's super exciting to think that one day we could have a better understanding to that.
Speaker: I don't think we'll be able to know everything because like you said, our senses, our
Speaker: We can only perceive so much, I think, in this life.
Speaker: But shedding light on that, I think, can be transformative for so many people like it has been for you.
Speaker: So it's super exciting to kind of hear this and even just having a book like you've written.
Speaker: You have this great talent of taking all of this complicated research and
Speaker: parsing it down for the public to understand and consume in a way that makes sense to us.
Speaker: And I think that that work is super important because you're making it accessible for people outside of academia to understand.
Speaker: So first, I'd like to thank you for that.
Speaker: I think that it's a wonderful thing that you're doing.
Speaker: And I definitely recommend the listeners to get your book and read it and kind of digest it and understand it.
Speaker: Because I think you also give some really great points for mediums or people who have psychic abilities to have talking points, right?
Speaker: Because no matter what, we're through this journey, we're going to be questioned.
Speaker: Friends, family, people who sit for us, they're going to ask us these things.
Speaker: And to know what research is happening now and to know the outcomes of those studies arms us with knowledge that we can share with those people who come to us with those questions.
Speaker: which is interesting.
Speaker: It kind of brings me to another service that you provide.
Speaker: You do private dinners, right?
Speaker: With, with evidential mediums.
Speaker: Can you tell me a little bit about that?
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: And we've, I've had been calling them the science and spirituality dinners, but I'm now calling them science and spirituality events because we can do brunch.
Speaker: We can do any dinner dinner and dinner.
Speaker: And
Speaker: We people can host it at their homes as of now we've done them really salon style really intimate but I'm looking to expand and do larger ones, but this is where I will work with a medium someone will invite us into their home and we had a maximum of 10 people because for these ones we that is the maximum so everybody can get a reading and
Speaker: I'll just do a disclaimer, and I probably know this all as mediums, but we do understand that everyone cannot be guaranteed a reading.
Speaker: It's not 100%.
Speaker: But most sometimes, you know, you can never guarantee as a medium who's going to come in and you can never guarantee that someone 100% will get a reading.
Speaker: But...
Speaker: This will, oh, I'm going to add one little bit to that, just if this helps.
Speaker: If I've just, this is really suggested if you have a sitter and they are saying no to everything,
Speaker: Just end the reading and refund them.
Speaker: That, to me, as a skeptic, when I had a medium offer to do that, gave them so much credibility.
Speaker: It does not make you look bad.
Speaker: It sucks to lose the money.
Speaker: But to me, the ones that didn't do that, I was like, okay, I think they're fake.
Speaker: They might not be, but that's where I went.
Speaker: They were about motivations at that point, right?
Speaker: Like, if you're there to connect somebody with a past loved one and you're not able to do that, then...
Speaker: I mean, it makes sense to give that money back.
Speaker: I think.
Speaker: I think that I absolutely agree.
Speaker: I think that there's a level of professionalism about it and a little bit about like motivation and like, why are you becoming a psychic medium?
Speaker: Is it because you're just trying to get money?
Speaker: Is it like, and unfortunately people really, they question that.
Speaker: And I think that they should, right?
Speaker: Because mediums and psychics are people too.
Speaker: And that's
Speaker: We're not perfect.
Speaker: So when people offer that, that added to the positive evidence in my mind, I'm like, oh, that person is genuine.
Speaker: And there's something going on because I don't care what your job is.
Speaker: Everyone can't.
Speaker: Everyone has an off day.
Speaker: And to me, that was just so believable.
Speaker: And I thought really highly of the mediums when they did that.
Speaker: I mean, it was very rare, but it has happened.
Speaker: some offered to try again another day.
Speaker: And then we, I always said, yes, let's try again.
Speaker: And it worked the times.
Speaker: I mean, this has happened to me in all my readings twice, I would say where, and then once with someone who was really ungenuine and she did not offer, that's a whole other story.
Speaker: She didn't offer and I didn't ask some sitters might ask, but I was approaching from a research perspective.
Speaker: So that was a little different.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So sorry.
Speaker: I just wanted to say that.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: because I think that was just an important point.
Speaker: So I'm so sorry.
Speaker: Can you remind me?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So you said that you kind of do it salon style.
Speaker: They're usually not everybody can get a reading, but that's right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So 10 people max.
Speaker: And so that was, is with the plan that everybody will get read.
Speaker: And when we've done this so far, yes, everybody has gotten read.
Speaker: And so it's in someone's home, maximum of 10 people.
Speaker: I give a talk on science and the medium gives medium readings.
Speaker: And usually the talk, though it will depend on which medium I'm doing it with, but in general, it's like we have a discussion about the science together.
Speaker: And because often they've participated in the science.
Speaker: So I'll share everything I know and the data and the studies, and then they'll share their experiences of having participated in some of what I'm talking about.
Speaker: And people can customize it a bit.
Speaker: Do they want to know just about mediumship or would they also like to know about near-death experiences, children with past life memories, psychic abilities such as the Gonsfeld experiment?
Speaker: And then also we're going to be expanding these a bit to also have large scale events.
Speaker: And while I mentioned these are in people's homes, we also offer a virtual event.
Speaker: option and that's more, much more affordable.
Speaker: And, you know, if I think even people who at that point are considered quote unquote skeptics, I think that that's such a great idea to give both perspectives and come at it from that way.
Speaker: I mean, I feel like
Speaker: You're deepening the understanding of people who are coming to these events and you're answering questions and the curiosity that people have about it.
Speaker: This is a wonderful idea.
Speaker: Like, I think that that I would love to be at one of those parties.
Speaker: I would love to experience that.
Speaker: I know a lot of my listeners probably would, too.
Speaker: How long have you been doing these kind of events?
Speaker: This is fairly new, a little under a year.
Speaker: So yeah, I think we started last summer and they went pretty well.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: Well, that is very, very cool.
Speaker: I know we're kind of running out of time, but I wanted to touch on all of the things that you're doing.
Speaker: You're doing great things, like I said, by
Speaker: by really kind of translating these studies and bringing that information to people that don't know or maybe even don't have the time or faculties to go through these studies.
Speaker: Again, I will link to Liz's book, her podcast, and to her events in the description of this episode for you guys to check out.
Speaker: I love to give further resources to my listeners so you can deepen your understanding.
Speaker: and really kind of go down that rabbit hole yourself.
Speaker: Just real quick before we jump off, if you had to pick three books or studies or starting points, not to put you on the spot, but what would you recommend for the listeners who maybe haven't gone down the scientific aspect of mediumship yet, but would love to have a starting point?
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And this is for people who are mediums, not people in grief.
Speaker: People who are kind of in the mentoring phase and really trying to hone their gifts and kind of also learning to deal with skeptics and things like that.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So I would say...
Speaker: from my own book, but yes, with, without, yes, I mean, I'm kind of joking.
Speaker: The Medium Explosion by Robert Ginsburg is a great one.
Speaker: And he's one of my mentors in this.
Speaker: And you get a lot of insight, not only into mediumship and to some of the studying of mediums, but also really a reason why I have patients with skeptics because mediumship transforms.
Speaker: Bob and Fran's life after the loss of their daughter.
Speaker: I think Surviving Death by Leslie Kane is a great one.
Speaker: Perfect.
Speaker: Anything by Dr. Julie Beischel.
Speaker: All her books, every single one.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: And I'm sure that your book has references to some of these studies and things that we've talked about today.
Speaker: So if they look into your book, that can be a good point for them to kind of
Speaker: to put the book down for a minute, look at the study, come back and make it a whole exercise.
Speaker: I'll also just add, you might want to take classes.
Speaker: If you're interested in classes, they're all also online.
Speaker: So anyone could go at the Ryan Education Center.
Speaker: The Ryan Education Center.
Speaker: Perfect.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: I will link all of that stuff just to make it easier for all of the listeners to kind of expand from this episode.
Speaker: It's been awesome having you.
Speaker: I think that you've given us a really great perspective of academia and that and the scientific side, but also from the skeptic side, which I think is really important to think about when you're starting this journey into psychic ability and mediumship.
Speaker: And I think that you are probably going to surprise us with a bunch of great work in the future as well.
Speaker: So definitely follow Liz on her website or her social media if you'd like to stay up to date with that.
Speaker: And I'll talk to you guys next time.
