Transcript
Speaker: One of my hacks is I think of women who I really admire and how they carry themselves. In the moment when I start to feel myself get really nervous, I'll think of them or sometimes I'll have a little picture of them up. Having women who are just like you and I, they came up and they had to address the same things that you and I are talking about right now.
Speaker: But having them and an image of them really commanding a room calms the nerves and allows me to sort of step into my power and speak my piece. I'm Tamina and I'm extending a heartfelt invitation to you as we join forces in reclaiming economic power for women in a world that is often structured against us.
Speaker: We'll dive into the minds of accomplished female leaders, investors and entrepreneurs to equip you with the confidence and knowledge to build wealth for yourself and other women. So buckle up, get ready to learn and be inspired to take action.
Speaker: Welcome back, everyone, to another episode. When I started this podcast, I really wanted to bring on a guest to talk about all things salary negotiation. That's why I am so thrilled to be welcoming Caitlin White to the show.
Speaker: Caitlin is a seasoned advocate for pay equality and a skilled salary negotiator who guides women to step into their power. With a background in financial services, she's previously worked at Bain Capital and Advent Software, and expertise in career coaching, Caitlin is committed to championing financial advocacy.
Speaker: She's equipped many individuals with negotiation strategies across banking, cybersecurity, fintech, hospitality, human resources, private equity, social work, venture capital, and many more to ask for what they want. By leading and supporting women in asserting their value to achieve fair compensation with clear and approachable negotiation playbooks, Caitlin is a driving force for women establishing their voice in the workplace.
Speaker: When she's away from her clients, Caitlin is the founder of Hera Invest, a personal finance platform for visual thinkers to build their first nest egg. She's also an avid skier, cyclist, and windsurfer who splits her time between New York City, Vermont, and Colorado.
Speaker: Caitlin, I'm so excited to have you on the show. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm thrilled to be here. Amazing. Let's dive in, Caitlin. You're sharing with me offline that you've been listening to some of the podcast episodes. First of all, thank you for that. But you might have noticed that I always like to start out asking my guests the same question for each season first. So my question to you is a little introspective.
Speaker: Because as we grow older and we evolve in our personal, professional growth, I think we often unlearn certain beliefs or perceptions. And I'm just curious to hear from you, Caitlin. Is there something significant that you personally have unlearned in your journey towards advocating for gender equity?
Speaker: Yes, it's that silence does not equal a reward. For a long time, I was like, oh, I'll take the job. My first job, they gave me, I don't know, something terribly low and I never even negotiated it. It wasn't on my radar.
Speaker: And I just said, oh, thank you. And then the raise time would come about and they'd give me like a 1 .5 % raise or something remarkably low. And I was raised with the belief that what you're given is just fine and that there wasn't a conversation of financial advocacy going on in the home I grew up in. And there also wasn't a group of women I could confide in at work.
Speaker: And if the conversation was going on, I wasn't included in that, which is fine. But over time and over the years, I began to see that the turning point for me was working at Bain and I was included in meetings. And I began to pick up on the mannerisms and the tempo of speech and really the art of negotiation that they implement.
Speaker: at Bain or the way they carry themselves. And I picked up on that and I had a really wonderful boss at Bain who included me in various meetings and I was able to see kind of what the secret sauce is without it being laid out verbatim. And I began to see the power of
Speaker: speaking up in a way that was calm, collected, and confident. And for me, that is definitely what I bring to the clients I work with, calm, collected, and confident. And I often work with folks who
Speaker: going through a salary negotiation is really nerve wracking. And so it's not like people come to me and they're calm, collected, and confident. They're more like, oh my God. But breaking that silence with kind of calm, collected, and confident demeanor and preparation goes a long way.
Speaker: I love that, Caitlin. And it goes back to something that I share with my community all the time, especially with the many younger women that I mentor and coach is, unfortunately, as women, we oftentimes believe that our work will speak for.
Speaker: itself, right? So this goes back to what you're doing around, right? But in reality, that's just not the case. And finding a way to do that kind of like with both the salary negotiation, which I call ghost salary negotiator because
Speaker: My goal is to teach my clients how to advocate for themselves. So I'm not necessarily a scary ghost, but an encouraging, uplifting ghost behind the scenes that allows them to step out into their power on their own and learn how to do this for themselves and also learn how to do this in a way where they can also teach the women they come in contact with.
Speaker: No, I think that's really important that notion of also paying it forward. And as I was mentioning in the intro, I'd been wanting to host an episode on salary negotiation for quite some time now. So the timing couldn't have been better when our mutual contact Natalie connected us. And like I said, I myself, I'm a huge advocate in the space. I am an avid negotiator myself and I always encourage and support my community.
Speaker: to ask for what they deserve. We already talked a little bit about one of those misconceptions around silence and our work actually does not always speak for itself and then subsequently lead to a raise or a promotion.
Speaker: Here's to hear from you, Caitlin, what are some of the other big misconceptions that people, especially women, have when it comes to salary negotiation? One of the biggest things kind of ties into what if you had to unlearn. It's that what I want will work out. If not upfront, it'll work out down the road. But I teach my clients that the salary negotiation, yes, you're negotiating your salary or even base compensation, but it's also an opportunity
Speaker: to negotiate when your salary is going to be evaluated and what the tempo is. And setting that up when you join a company is so important. It sets the tone not just for what your work experience is going to be like there, but it also demonstrates to your
Speaker: perspective or soon to be new employer, that you're well organized and that you understand how business in general and a good business should work. So in doing that, you're demonstrating that you're already more of an asset than the next person in line, which also sets you up to ask for a little more money than you think possible.
Speaker: I'm a big advocate for asking for a little bit more than people want to, or not that I'm pushing people to ask for more than, you know, they want to, but I'm like, what's your dream salary? I always start there. What is your dream salary in this role? And say they're like,
Speaker: I work with folks who it's 60 ,000. I work with folks who it's into the six digits, but they state it. And then they're like, Oh, I can't, I just can't ask for that. I hear that all the time. Oh, I can't ask for that. And I break down. I'm like, okay, well, why do you think that?
Speaker: And, you know, I hear a lot of reasons about it's just too much. I don't have the background to support that. And I'm like, look, they're offering you the job because they recognize that you have the background to support this. And then I also flip because I make it less about the person I'm working with and I evaluate the company. I'm like, look, it's this type of company. They're probably making this much money in revenue a year.
Speaker: they probably have this much in a buffer. And I break down the mystery of what a company is. So when the person's asking for, say, like 35 over versus the original ask for 105, right? But the person's asking for 135. And I break down what they're going to bring to the company.
Speaker: what the company is doing. And I think oftentimes women think they're going to break the bank on some level or break the company or I'm searching for a better way to say this in this moment. Also, there's the fear of the offer being retracted. So I bring it all together and I try and say, all right, if the offer gets retracted,
Speaker: It's a horrible company and you don't want to work for them anyway. I hear women say, oh, I can't ask for that. We break it down from the side of the fact of how the company operates. We break what they're bringing to the company down. And then I begin to break down the thinking that leads to, oh, I can't ask for that. And I let them know that there are men in their shoes with their exact qualifications or even men without those qualifications who are asking for far more than we're even asking for at the table.
Speaker: I also take the opportunity to say a company's response to your negotiation is a reflection of them and not you, which is huge. I always make sure I'm like, if you need this job, we can negotiate one way. If you're in a position where we can push this negotiation to get the highest dollar amount that you feel comfortable asking for, that's another thing.
Speaker: But a company that has a really negative, do you want this job or not kind of response was probably not someone you want to work for, which to be honest, I have been told that when I negotiated once upon a time, a company didn't like that I was asking for something very minimal, five grand more. And the head of HR said, well, do you want the job or not? And I was blown away by that statement. I love that you pointed out a couple of different things. One.
Speaker: being people can oftentimes be so hammer -focused on their own individual circumstances that they oftentimes forget to look at the bigger picture. So kind of grounding them in that by breaking down, hey, this is a multi -million, maybe even multi -billion dollar company, right? An additional 20, 30K is not going to break the bend for them. That's nothing to them, right? I think that is really helpful. And then
Speaker: the point you made very beginning, prompting people to ask for more than what they actually wanted. It's something I bring up all the time with the people. It's so, so important because you need to anchor the other side high because it's
Speaker: negotiation. If you, let's say you want 110k, and you're going to tell them that, you're never going to get 110k. You have to anchor them at like, say 130, 140k in order to then hopefully get to 110k or ideally even 115, 120k. And I always
Speaker: tell my coaches, mentees, the members of my community, if the number that you're sharing as a counter does not make you at least a little bit uncomfortable, that number is not high enough. Absolutely.
Speaker: If you think of all the times where you asked for really big things in your life, you usually have a friend that you've communicated with extensively. I really love being that person for my clients. But someone who sees them in a different way than maybe their friend circles or their families, I think much like you, I have amazing women who find their way and that I get to work with, and I really see them
Speaker: for who they are. And I speak to that and I address that. And that's actually something we go through. We go through what their qualifications are and the perception of what they're asking for is. And then I break it down and do away with
Speaker: misconceptions that they have and we talk them through. I usually spend like an hour just getting to know somebody and I do that because then we're on the same level and we're on the same playing field and we understand where the other one is coming from and that puts me in a good position to really support them and help them either ghost write an email, counter offer email, or coach them through a salary negotiation call. So whoever that person is for you, I think
Speaker: We all probably have one, maybe one really good person who could be a great sounding board. Give them a call, leverage them. Remember, silence will not be rewarded. Call that person, tell them where you are and that you just need a sounding board and I guarantee you they'll be there for you.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. And also think about what type of advice you would give to your best friend, right? And then apply that same advice to your own situation, which granted oftentimes easier said than done, right? But I think especially as women, we need to learn how to become our own best advocate. And obviously that takes
Speaker: sometime, especially in a society where we've been conditioned to think of women and their value being equal to how much women continue to sacrifice, right? And like once women start questioning that, challenging the status quo and asking for what they deserve, sometimes it doesn't sit so well with people who have that inherent bias.
Speaker: But I do think it's so, so, so important and having conversations with people that you trust can be extremely beneficial. We already talked a little bit about how one should approach the conversation and anchoring them high. But I feel people oftentimes go into a salary or job offer negotiation with that mindset of it's
Speaker: me versus them. But, you know, ideally, it is something that both parties work on together in an effort to make both sides happy, right? Because we want to make sure that that person is actually happy in their new job and doesn't leave six months late.
Speaker: That's the turnover costs are huge deal for companies as well. It can cost a company anywhere from like 15 to 200 % of that person's annual salary, depending on seniority and a couple of other factors to fill that role. So it's something that companies usually, at least good companies are not taking lightly either.
Speaker: But Caitlin, let's say one of our listeners is planning on negotiating either a new job offer package or they're asking for a raise. How should she approach that conversation? Do you have any technique such as maybe the sandwich method or any specific raises that she should leverage? Definitely. So I'm always a big fan of the sandwich method, I think in almost anything in life.
Speaker: which is start out with something good, have the heavy hitter punch in the middle, and then end with another something good. Into that point, singing their praises or writing or speaking the company's praises is a great way to start. I don't mean blowing sunshine up their backside, but I do mean having a good thought about
Speaker: What are the best parts of this? They put in a fair amount of effort. And if you take the time to validate what someone else is doing, you're going to put them in, oh, wow, they see me. Even if this company doesn't see you, I think it's an important start to any negotiation.
Speaker: and then give them two options that work for them and come at it as a calm, positive that this is already going to happen and that they are going to make this happen for you. Another thing is if you're doing this in person, I think when we get nervous, we always sometimes can start talking really fast and then our mind flies up in the air, but go in there and calm down and can start to control the conversation
Speaker: with the tone and speed of your voice, kind of like I'm doing now, which is obnoxious, but you can control a negotiation with the speed of your voice and the tone that you make. I love doing that, and I'm also aware that it can be really obnoxious, but if you listen to a lot of men speak, they do this, and it's a way to commandeer the conversation in their favor.
Speaker: I also think it's important to stay away from sentences that start with I, even though I just started the sentence with I. Preparing your negotiation to have strong words, even if you have one, two, or three main words that you're going to start your sentences with is a huge asset. If you get into a position where you want to say I, just pause, think of what the sentence power is, and usually step in at the third word of that sentence.
Speaker: Of course, if you're writing this, that's much easier. And then the last bit is, which I'm a wordy person when I'm left to my own, but don't get wordy. Make it short, make it sweet, make it direct, and be done with it. Whether or not you have your negotiation written out and you just go through it and take out 10 % of the extra words,
Speaker: Well done. Making it direct. You don't need any niceties. I hope you find this well. Please don't write that in your negotiation. Just get right to it. So many gems in there. And as someone who is a bit of a rambler herself, I definitely appreciate the advice on being concise and to the point and also adjusting the rhythm and
Speaker: speed of talking. It's again easier said than done because you go into a conversation like that and especially if it's a job that you really want or if it's your manager whom you really like, but you're going to place this ask with them, you're probably going to be super, super nervous.
Speaker: Speaking to the nerves of asking for money, start doing it. This sounds a little wild, but start asking for what you want in little ways in your life. And I mean that by when you order a smoothie. Use that opportunity to ask for what you want in a tone that you're taking out for a test drive.
Speaker: hide like the blueberry kale smoothie. That's just a little micro -learning lesson for yourself, a little test drive. Then maybe it's ordering a coffee at the coffee shop or talking with somebody who you work with or even talking with a friend and just playing with your tone and your speech patterns. Think of being a commandeering force.
Speaker: commandeering the conversation because when a lot of women get into negotiations, we retreat from ourselves because we're all very capable and it is well within all of our power to execute a strong negotiation. But really stand with yourself and commandeer the conversation.
Speaker: I don't mean to overpower it and plow through someone, but just take control of the negotiation. Even if it's the most slow, painful, I mean, I don't expect somebody to slow it down. Sit in your power and remember that you're in this position because of what you're doing and what you're capable of and how you
Speaker: do business. I love that Caitlin, what I always do a couple minutes before an important conversation like that, I would blast music, start dancing, jumping up and down to get my blood flowing in my body, right? And then the music running and then do this super woman power pose for I kid you not like a minute or two to make myself
Speaker: physically bigger, expand, and stepping into my power. And I mean, I think it works, honestly. I'm pretty sure there are some signs behind that as well. So that's just a quick hack that I like to apply for me personally.
Speaker: One of my hacks is I think of women who I really admire and how they carry themselves. And in the moment when I start to feel myself get really nervous, I'll think of them, or sometimes I'll have a little picture of them up, you know, Michelle Obama or...
Speaker: Hannah Waddingham, the woman who plays Rebecca on Ted Lasso, she has a very commanding presence as well. And having women who are just like you and I, they came up and they had to address the same things that you and I are talking about right now. But having them and an image of them really commanding a room calms the nerves and allows me to sort of step into my power and
Speaker: Speak my piece. Role models are super, super important. Let's pivot a little bit because over the past year, we've obviously seen quite a few layoffs happen, unfortunately, and the industry I work in, which is tech, has been particularly impacted. And I bet that most people aren't even aware that you can actually negotiate your severance package.
Speaker: And I know that is also a service that you are providing your ghost salary negotiator clients with. Can you maybe share a few anecdotes of clients you were able to help get better packages and generally talk about what people can do in order to increase their chances of successfully negotiating a better exit package?
Speaker: Definitely. So the first tidbit for negotiating a severance package is when you're notified that you've been laid off. Stay really positive. Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. But again, sing the company's praises in your, whether it be an email or in person.
Speaker: And I've been laid off before, and I think it took everything in my power to not burst into tears in that moment, which I totally get. So if in that moment all you can say is, okay, thank you very much, I understand, and then don't sign anything right away.
Speaker: Whatever you do, don't sign anything. Actually, taking a step back, when you join a company, there is a clause in there about how they can lay you off and what the terms are, which I'll get to in a moment. So when you're notified you're laid off, stay positive, keep it in the positive. You want to keep a healthy conversation going with the HR person who's notifying you.
Speaker: And then from there, again, don't sign anything right away. They'll send you something and that's when you can respond and negotiate. So say they offer you one month severance. You can always list how long you've been working there, the projects you did,
Speaker: how much you admire the company because you're setting them up to get what you want. So tell them that you admire them and what have you. And then I always say if they're offering you a month, I'd ask for three or even four because a month is nothing. And so if it's a month, ask for four, state your why, and they'll probably come back with some extra bit.
Speaker: But again, that goes back to you and I both encouraging our clients to ask for way more than they think possible. Remember, this company, even if they're laying you off, they have money to pay you for severance, let me tell you. And keeping that in mind, and now your new goal is to cover your own ass and have the money to do so.
Speaker: you can do that maintaining a positive connection. The two times I've been laid off, I asked for more severance than they gave me and I got it both times just because I asked. I think the biggest thing with severance is just asking. To that, I recently
Speaker: was working with a woman who had some of her work papers that allowed her to work in the US and they were stored on her work laptop that had been confiscated immediately and she didn't have a time to get them off. So please don't store your important documents on your work laptop. I know that's easy to do, especially when you get into the groove of a company, but really make sure that if anything, you're CCing private email.
Speaker: when you store those on your work laptop. So yeah, keep it upbeat, sing the company's praises, thank them for the time and remind them of the work you've done and how much you've enjoyed it, even if you haven't, and put them in a position to say yes to you. Maybe a follow -up question to that, Caitlin. What's your take on seeking legal representation to negotiate on your behalf?
Speaker: If it comes to it, I'm a fan of it. I don't think there's anything wrong with doing that. I have a client recently who is being drastically underpaid and it's very clear that there's a much bigger issue happening. I know my limits and I said, look, it's very clear what's happening here to both you and I. We've done our best to outline very clearly that they're underpaying her per their
Speaker: tiered system and have been for the last X number of years and that they're not responding and that they're not engaging with this and they're hoping you're going to go away. And she happens to have a child under one at home, her baby. And I was like, there's a really good chance statistically that you're going to go away and not bother them about this.
Speaker: And I told her, I was like, I would recommend and I'm happy to help you do this, getting an attorney who can help you move to the next steps because it's very obvious that what's happening is outside of my jurisdiction. And I'm fine admitting that even
Speaker: I mean, it was nauseating, but it's part of my job to help the women I work with identify what's going on and then find them the right help. Cause sometimes I'm not always it. Yeah. That anecdote you just shared, you're just referring to it as nauseating. Literally as you're talking, I had shippers going down my entire body, my arms, my legs, everything else. Just all this makes me so, so angry. Yeah.
Speaker: One of the best ways I can help is listening to her and validating her experience. A lot of what I do is hearing people's concerns and validating their concerns because I could have every tactic in the book, but if someone isn't heard and seen, it doesn't really matter. In order for someone to step out of their comfort zone, they have to be heard and seen, and that's what you and I are doing.
Speaker: Absolutely. Well, very grateful that you exist and they are too, to guide women through this. I am still having goosebumps right now because I'm now picturing that woman and a little kid and got, okay, Caitlin, let's pivot again. And then, and this on the positive side of because you're doing so much incredible work in this space. So that's why I also wanted to talk a little bit about Hera and Vests, which is a new financial platform that you're building.
Speaker: And on your website, you share that the help of this platform, people can build their financial literacy and wealth on the go, which is very, very intriguing. Please tell us more. So first I named
Speaker: my startup Hera after the Greek goddess Hera, who's the protector of womanhood. That is my call to action in life, to be as much as I can be the protector of womanhood. So the concept for Hera was born from a mass e -mail I got, and it was titled, here are five ways to save for your first home.
Speaker: And I was like, all right, I'm going to get the secret sauce because it hadn't been shared with me or revealed to me. Financial literacy wasn't talked about in my home, even though I grew up in a nice home. It just wasn't something that was discussed. And so I got this email, I opened it up and it said things like,
Speaker: don't go to dinner, don't buy this, that, and the other. It was actually from an uncle who was a real estate guy and I wrote him back and I was like, Uncle Pete, these all make the same sound lobsters do and you put them in the pot to die. I'm never going to do these things. I said to him, I was like, I just wish I could get the dopamine rush I do from buying something that I do from the act of saving and the act of investing. Why isn't this?
Speaker: an experience that is rewarding because as it is right now, saving and investing is a chore and not a reward. To that point, a lot of investing and budgeting and personal finance platforms are designed for analytical thinkers. As a visual thinker and learner, which is 65 percent of the population,
Speaker: I've created Hera to be that rewarding experience when you contribute to your saving goals or investment goals or both on the go. So in a few different ways, either A, you can auto set it up, or B, you can add things
Speaker: to Hera on the go. So if you choose between the cab or the subway, you can contribute the cab amount to a saving or investing goal on the Hera app. And in doing so, you get the experience that's rewarding and it's
Speaker: filled with a feel -good experience. So yes, I am taking the principles of retail therapy and applying them to personal finance, and I think that's great. I've worked in finance for many years, but in the evenings, I've taken all sorts of art classes, everything from printmaking to color theory to digital art to block printing, upholstery, you name it. And I love working
Speaker: with color, I love working with textures, and I think if any of us, not that many of us have been in an actual bank in many years, but if you think of logging on to your personal finance app, you go in, you see it.
Speaker: You do it and you get out. Hera's created a platform where you go in, you explore, you enjoy it. It's a reward. So we're redefining what it means to save and invest in the environment that that's done in. Again, sounds super, super intriguing and I can't wait to test it out myself. Just like you, I'm also a visual learner.
Speaker: And Thinker, I love nothing more than doing color coding on my calendar. And it just helps so, so much. So I'm really glad that you have found a way to challenge the status quo, make it more fun and make it visually appealing.
Speaker: and align it with people's psychology as well. Because going back to your point you made initially, saving, investing, budgeting for many people, especially people who are new to the space, who haven't really set up their systems and tools and rhythm yet, it can be more of a chore. And it's really hard to create that consistency and discipline that is required in order to create really substantial generational wealth.
Speaker: from a graduate, especially as a woman, especially as a minority or person of color, first generation college graduate, someone who came from a household with a lower socioeconomic footprint, right?
Speaker: I really love that and will make sure to link to your platform in our show notes so people can check it out themselves. Caitlin, one final question for you. I want you to imagine that you had the power to enact a single universally binding law that every organization must obey and that law must be specifically designed to uplift women's economic status. What law would that be?
Speaker: It would be the universally binding law designed significantly uplift women's economic status. I would enact if I had the power or when I do have the power is for every organization, government, company, board, you name it, to be 75 percent women, period. Love that. Yeah, no explanation needed. Love it so, so much. Caitlin, it was such a pleasure to have you.
Speaker: on this show today. Thank you for all of your incredible insights, especially the very actionable advice that you shared with us. I'm sure this will be super, super beneficial to our listeners. Thank you for all the amazing work that you do to create systemic change in that space. And thank you for joining me today.
Speaker: Thank you so much for having me. I loved talking with you and I love what you're doing and I just want to remind everyone that it is well within their power to ask for what they want.
Speaker: Hey there, not so fast. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving a 5 -star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you've listened in from today. Reviews are a podcaster's most important currency. It helps me create visibility for the incredible women who join me on this show. And if you've made it this far, I'd like to believe that supporting women is one of your favorite pastimes.
Speaker: If you already left the review, first of all thank you, but why not share this episode with a friend or post it to your Instagram story? Thank you for helping me on my mission to make women rich by making women rich.
