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00:00:01
Humour in B2B Marketing?
20 Plays12 days ago
In this episode of B2B Marketing Pint, Brendan & Brian sit down with Jim Shields—award-winning filmmaker, storyteller, and the creative force behind The Inside Man and Restricted Intelligence—to unpack what B2B marketers can learn from entertainment.
Jim has spent decades proving a simple point: people don’t stop being human at work. And yet, most B2B marketing still plays it safe, leading with information instead of connection.
This conversation digs into why that approach fails—and what to do instead.
You’ll hear how storytelling, humour, and character-driven content can cut through crowded markets, create emotional connection, and ultimately drive better marketing outcomes. Jim also shares how to sell bold creative ideas internally, avoid “watered-down” content, and build campaigns that audiences actually want to watch.
If your marketing feels like it’s blending in instead of standing out, this episode will challenge how you think about content—and what it takes to make people care.
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Transcript
Intro
Introduction to B2B Marketing with Jim Shields
00:00:28
Brian O'Grady
Attention, attention marketers. It's time for B2B Marketing Plan. Put the latte down. Brendan, who are we talking to today?
00:00:36
Brendan Ziolo
Well, it's my pleasure to introduce today's guest, who is Jim Shields. He spent, let's just say the last few years, I won't embarrass him with the number here, proving that funny and serious aren't mutually exclusive in B2B.
00:00:48
Jim Shields
Thank you.
00:00:53
Brendan Ziolo
Sounds intriguing. He was the creative force behind Restricted Intelligence, the world's first sitcom about cybersecurity, and the award-winning drama series, The Inside Man.
00:01:04
Brendan Ziolo
We're not talking Hollywood here. We're talking B2B marketing. Trust me. Jim built Twist and Shout Communications into a globally recognized storytelling powerhouse before it was acquired.
00:01:14
Brendan Ziolo
And now he's a freelance for hire, everyone. I actually had the pleasure of collaborating with Jim on a series called The New Guy for Alcatel-Lucent back in the day. So I've seen firsthand how this all comes together. And I was super excited when Jim and I connected recently or reconnected recently and thought he'd be great.
00:01:34
Brendan Ziolo
uh, to join us on the podcast and walk us through all of that. Jim, how much did I screw up your bio there?
00:01:40
Jim Shields
No, that's great. I'm going to keep that one for future reference. I like it.
00:01:44
Brendan Ziolo
All right. My gift, my gift to you.
00:01:47
Jim Shields
Thank you. I like the powerhouse bit. that' will That'll go. I'm going to...
00:01:51
Brendan Ziolo
Perfect.
Incorporating Humor in B2B Marketing
00:01:52
Brendan Ziolo
Uh, and as tradition, uh, as tradition holds, uh, Jim, hopefully you, uh, you brought something to drink with you and could you share what you're drinking?
00:01:53
Brian O'Grady
Thank you.
00:02:01
Jim Shields
Sure. Yeah, you warned me about this. So I picked a beer that I really like. This is a beer from a region in the UK called Cornwall. I if you know the UK, but it's at the bottom, the bit that looks like a foot sticking out into the Irish sea. Basically, this is a... I'm going to open it now because I'm thirsty.
00:02:23
Jim Shields
This is... it's It's a pale ale. It's 4.2% alcohol by volume. And it's so it's a light drink. You can drink this all night and still remember who you are by the end of it.
00:02:36
Jim Shields
So it's...
00:02:36
Brendan Ziolo
See, I thought he was going to go, Brian, with you can drink this all night and be drunk just like the other ones.
00:02:42
Jim Shields
You'll be talking if it keeps you at a steady, happy place, I would say. So I'm holding it up to the mic.
00:02:48
Brendan Ziolo
Perfect.
00:02:50
Jim Shields
Here's where i pour pale ale into my laptop. although
00:02:55
Brian O'Grady
Brendan Jim Jim's gone for it. So what are you drinking?
00:02:57
Brendan Ziolo
Yes, well, you know, no one will be surprised when I show you that I already poured mine again. i always forget.
00:03:03
Jim Shields
Oh, good man. i like it.
00:03:05
Brendan Ziolo
No, I try, but you know, somewhat in honor of Jim, although I'm probably mixing up countries here a bit, but I've had a lot of Guinness in the UK.
00:03:11
Jim Shields
No, I'm i'm from Irish extraction.
00:03:13
Brendan Ziolo
Oh, there we go. So perfect.
00:03:14
Jim Shields
Definitely.
00:03:14
Brendan Ziolo
Yeah. So I'm drinking a Guinness. I did put it in the properly branded glass though.
00:03:19
Jim Shields
I'm impressed.
00:03:19
Brendan Ziolo
So I, I think opening it early was okay. Uh, and once again, this is the non-alcohol variety since I don't actually drink beer.
00:03:22
Jim Shields
Yeah.
00:03:27
Brendan Ziolo
I don't know if I shared that with you, Jim, I don't drink it.
00:03:28
Jim Shields
I did not know. I do drink alcohol.
00:03:30
Brendan Ziolo
So I'm, I'm on an experiment of, uh,
00:03:34
Jim Shields
What's Brian drinking? Do we know what Brian?
00:03:36
Brendan Ziolo
Yeah, Ryan, why don't you share?
00:03:36
Brian O'Grady
Yeah, I'm not gonna leave you hanging, Jim. We're going to Germany today. This is a, this is a de blogger.
00:03:41
Jim Shields
Oh, dab lager, right, okay.
00:03:44
Brian O'Grady
As far as I can tell, it's hard to go wrong when you use beer and the word Germany in the same sentence.
00:03:45
Jim Shields
Cool.
00:03:50
Jim Shields
Well, yeah, the beer favorite of football hooligans the world over, yeah.
00:03:55
Brian O'Grady
Okay.
00:03:57
Jim Shields
Can of lager.
00:03:59
Brendan Ziolo
All right. Well, we may be off to a great start and have probably insulted a few different nationalities already on this call. Apologies to all our listeners. It was not intentional. But, you know, we're we're now drinking beer. So who knows what else will happen today?
00:04:14
Brendan Ziolo
Cheers.
00:04:14
Jim Shields
Here's
00:04:14
Brendan Ziolo
Yeah. See, I'm just
Pitching Creative Ideas in Conservative Environments
00:04:15
Jim Shields
everyone.
00:04:15
Brendan Ziolo
messing this up to no end today.
00:04:16
Jim Shields
Here we go. Great major colours in there.
00:04:17
Brendan Ziolo
Cheers.
00:04:21
Brendan Ziolo
Well, why don't we start it off on a good foot, Brian, and you kick us off rather than me butcher the first question.
00:04:21
Brian O'Grady
Okay.
00:04:27
Brian O'Grady
I'm into it.
00:04:28
Brendan Ziolo
Perfect.
00:04:28
Brian O'Grady
I'm into I've wet my whistle. I've got my German lager and we have questions, Jim. So I hope you're ready.
00:04:35
Jim Shields
I'm ready. Like a coiled spring.
00:04:37
Brian O'Grady
Fantastic. So here's the first one, which is I happen to be a fan of comedy, but like you, i am also trapped in a B2B world.
00:04:48
Brian O'Grady
which maybe it maybe makes that a little more difficult.
00:04:49
Jim Shields
Yep.
00:04:52
Brian O'Grady
Now, I know when anybody launches their brand-sparkling new B2B marketing program, somebody will say, we should have a data sheet. that Everyone around the the table will nod.
00:05:03
Brian O'Grady
Somebody else will say, oh, and a case study. They love them and some case studies, and everybody will nod. And then the the young, alfa teibbla the scary person in the room will say, have you considered an explainer video?
00:05:17
Brian O'Grady
And they everyone will go, ooh, an explainer video.
00:05:19
Jim Shields
Ooh, with the whiteboard, can I?
00:05:20
Brian O'Grady
And then a guy like, yeah Well, the whiteboard kind. Yeah, exactly.
00:05:23
Brendan Ziolo
Thank
00:05:23
Brian O'Grady
But then a guy like you shows up and I don't know how the rest of this story goes because it's so rare in my experience in B2B marketing. But a guy like you shows up and says, oh, I've got a big shiny idea.
00:05:34
Brian O'Grady
We should have a whole scripted video sitcom series about something B2B marketing related. How the heck do you make that case around a boardroom table?
00:05:48
Jim Shields
Well, one thing I like to point out is that, especially in tech, and and for me it was IT was it t and telecommunications, so if you look at the web pages of the top five wholesale cellular communications providers, like like you know the the heavy lifters in the industry, they generally look the same.
00:06:10
Brian O'Grady
Yeah.
00:06:10
Jim Shields
kind of, you know, there's kind of a networking matrixy background and there's kind of this, a couple of smiling people from different continents, you know, because they're inclusive and, you know, and and it's just, it's hard to
Differentiating Brands Through Storytelling
00:06:24
Jim Shields
differentiate. It's very difficult to make it feel like somebody is talking to you, Mr. Customer, like directly and and personally.
00:06:32
Jim Shields
And so once you start to build that around, cause they are, they feel comfortable in that space. Yeah. So I get, you know, you'll get questions like, oh, that sounds risky, you know, sounds expensive and risky, which is worse, you know.
00:06:46
Brian O'Grady
Far worse.
00:06:47
Jim Shields
How do we fit the product in is another thing that I get. I'm really worried about it making them look silly or worse still offending somebody. So it's quite a mountain to climb.
00:06:59
Jim Shields
But what you're not, you're not really selling information at that point, because film and video is the wrong medium for pure information. You know, it's a time-based medium, so you can't like,
00:07:13
Jim Shields
Well, you can scroll back and dig for things, but it's a terrible format to do that. It's a great way to make people feel things. And actually, one thing i've learned is that if you can make somebody feel something and whether that's, you know, an affinity because you made them laugh or or, you know, empathy because it's dramatic and they're into it and they like the characters and they feel seen, you know, i think that they will they will fit it will fix a lot of the other communications issues i always say that things like to some extent specification and price sort of take a back seat when somebody has already fallen in love with the idea look at that if you look at how we buy cars i don't know what you drive but in in in a family situation you should have a minivan because they're cheap to run you know where i'm headed with this you know they're cheap to fix they're cheap to buy they're cheap to insure
00:07:52
Brian O'Grady
Right.
00:08:07
Jim Shields
The SUV on the other hand, the sports utility vehicle that's very sexy and and and can climb up a mountain and not that you ever need it to, you know that's what you end up buying because marketing works.
00:08:23
Jim Shields
And it's the story we buy, not the item. And I think that's my, I rest my case on that one.
00:08:31
Brian O'Grady
Yeah, I can't really argue with that.
00:08:31
Jim Shields
So I just hammer those things. and And it's not, it's kind of, once it's proven, It's all in. you know If you've got a few case studies to talk about what happened with people and with other companies, and they feel they just want to know they're not the ones trying out for the first time.
00:08:48
Brian O'Grady
Wow. Okay, I can't really argue with that. I'd love to, that's kind of what we're here to do. will say though that my minivan also came with a golden retriever and a house in suburbia and three children. So I got the whole package when I got mine.
00:08:59
Jim Shields
Oh, you you had the yeah you have the platinum package. Well done. Yeah.
00:09:02
Brian O'Grady
Exactly. Thank you. But on B2B marketing pint, I would be a fool not to point out that there's this old marketing aphorism that says if you if you haven't marketed beer and you haven't marketed automobiles, you haven't marketed anything. And the argument for that is nine out of 10 people can't tell the difference between any kind of beer.
00:09:22
Brian O'Grady
It's all about the label, which I think is similar to what you're saying, creating an emotional connection.
00:09:25
Jim Shields
Yeah, it's the story. It's the story. There's a, you know, in tribute, pale ale from an independent brewery in St. Austal Brewery down in Cornwall. It's it's a kind of a pagan area in some respects. It's got, you know, it's got history. It's got goblins. It's like there'll be beasties here on the map.
00:09:47
Jim Shields
You know, it's it's it's got tons of rich history. And, you know, it that you drink the beer because you feel like you're connecting to your ancestors.
00:09:54
Brendan Ziolo
All right.
00:09:57
Jim Shields
You know, let's go there. And I think I don't think B2B marketers don't have a content problem. Like if you're if you know if you're in representing a big brand, especially in something like tech, They
Creating Engaging B2B Content
00:10:11
Jim Shields
don't have a content problem. They have the 150 slide PowerPoint, which is the cut down version that they're just going to run you past so that you understand the product. That's not the problem.
00:10:21
Jim Shields
They've got content. What they have is an attention problem. and in And in a noisy marketplace that getting somebody's attention is incredibly hard with with a data driven approach, with an information driven approach.
00:10:35
Jim Shields
It's hard.
00:10:36
Brian O'Grady
Makes sense.
00:10:39
Brendan Ziolo
So as I mentioned in the bio, Jim, you and I had the pleasure of working together, at least I had the pleasure of working with you. We won't tell our listeners if it's mutual the other way.
00:10:50
Brendan Ziolo
But you know the new guy turned into what was probably one of the biggest marketing successes at the company, thanks to you and the team and some good selling internally to get it approved.
00:10:59
Jim Shields
Thank you. Well done you.
00:11:03
Brendan Ziolo
I think one of the things that really bode well for it was it was totally unexpected from Alcatel-Lucent at the time. So word started to spread. People wanted to check it out, that type of thing. But it was also cool because it led with story and character and comedy as well, right? So there were definitely attributes. So how do you figure out what kind of story and character will resonate with a B2B audience?
00:11:30
Brendan Ziolo
And you know how do you know you found the right one? Because I'm assuming you know as you develop the new guy, that wasn't the only option. There were multiple ones.
00:11:39
Jim Shields
No, we always put three in. We have the rule of three. We have the first one that's the safe one. And if at the time we need the cash flow, we'll probably sell for that as well. There's the middle one, which is a good idea, strong idea. It's brave, but not too brave.
00:11:54
Jim Shields
Then there's the third one, which will probably get you fired. And so, you know, it's that needle swings various ways. I honestly, I honestly think this one was probably between the middle and the the last one. I think it might have been the brave one.
00:12:09
Jim Shields
Because again, it it it costs more money to make TV. And what we're talking let's not make any mistake. We're not talking about corporate communications here. We're talking about sponsored content as if it were TV.
00:12:20
Jim Shields
You could put the new guy in front of any streaming channel and they'd be like, yeah, that's that's something we would broadcast if it was a 28 minute program and and I think that the issue really is when you went. How do you how do you find the story? You look at the person that the company is selling to or influencing and put that character at the center of the story because what you want is for that that you know chief information officer to feel like they've been seen and if the jokes are in jokes, it's it's so great. It's a great
00:12:54
Jim Shields
way to connect with them and bypass everything. All the competition, the Rottweiler at the desk, you know all of that, that you can bypass all of that with a connection.
00:13:06
Jim Shields
I'll give you a great example in a domestic world. If you've been to a wedding where there's been a best man speech, and they may not be the best orator in the world.
00:13:17
Jim Shields
They may have written a ton of notes and they're fumbling through them and all of that. But in the room on that day, when you're on the verge of tears anyway, you know, this person is so relevant and connected to everybody in the room.
00:13:31
Jim Shields
Anything they say is hilarious. Anything, anything they say, they're witty, they are insightful, they're empathetic, it's romantic. All of those things come to play because of who they are, and how well they know the room. You're using the same set of rules in B2B marketing, when you're talking to the target, for want of a better word, within an organization who you'd like to impress or connect with.
00:13:58
Jim Shields
And that means that you have to be that best man speech. you have to You have to know about the family moments and you go, what are the things that, you know, we all kind of know about the bride and we all kind of know about the groom and it's usually about the groom, let's face it.
00:14:14
Brendan Ziolo
Thank you.
00:14:14
Jim Shields
and so And so that's why we're like, oh yeah, Barry's always like that. Oh my goodness, I remember that weekend or whatever, you know. That's what we're doing. We're making it familiar.
00:14:25
Jim Shields
We are we're looking at what is risky or or frustrating about their world. And that's our story. So we already have two elements. It's the story and the characters, or least one of the characters. And there are other characters.
00:14:39
Jim Shields
And then the third part of any story is the moral of the tale. And what is the moral of the tale is that We have a solution that can help you fix all this. And that's the moral of the tale.
00:14:51
Jim Shields
So that's how it all lands for me.
Maintaining Humor and Creativity in Marketing
00:14:53
Jim Shields
Does that make sense?
00:14:55
Brian O'Grady
I'm now suspicious that best man speeches in the UK are way superior to the ones I've been part of. I don't know.
00:15:02
Jim Shields
I don't know.
00:15:02
Brian O'Grady
We'll see. You're going to have to come to one in the UK.
00:15:05
Brendan Ziolo
and, uh,
00:15:06
Jim Shields
well
00:15:06
Brian O'Grady
that's a great That's a great example, though. That one's that one sticks. I want to follow up on the humor piece with Barry, the best man, maybe, which is if you go back, if you bring Barry, the best man back to the boardroom table and Barry is Barry's pitching his big shiny.
00:15:19
Jim Shields
Oh.
00:15:23
Jim Shields
It's just after the reception, so he's a little worse for wear.
00:15:25
Brian O'Grady
That's right. He's in great shape. And he's pitching his big comedic idea. I see, or at least in my experience, there's two big hurdles. One we we talked about off the top, which is how do you how do you get people to say yes to that in the first place, which is a big challenge.
00:15:41
Brendan Ziolo
Thank
00:15:42
Jim Shields
Mm-hmm.
00:15:42
Brian O'Grady
But secondly, perhaps in my experience, this is even greater risk. is there's usually somebody in legal or in the leadership team who if it gets the green light, then begins to sand off all of the edges and remove all of the comedy line by line, piece by piece, item by item through production. And you're still maybe basking in the glow of getting this crazy idea greenlit.
00:16:10
Brian O'Grady
But as you go, it's slowly being distilled, watered down and turned into nothing.
00:16:16
Jim Shields
Yeah, it's not made yet.
00:16:17
Brian O'Grady
how you yeah How do prevent that from happening?
00:16:18
Jim Shields
yeah
00:16:19
Brian O'Grady
How do you prevent a a giant brand with a lot of rules from saying, that's that's cute, Jim, but here's how we do things here?
00:16:23
Brendan Ziolo
Thank you.
00:16:28
Jim Shields
Yeah, and that is where managing the customer relationship comes in. And I've spent decades crafting an approach that really helps them understand that they this isn't a traditional way to communicate with customers. This will cut through.
00:16:45
Jim Shields
and there is a place for all of those things that they're talking about for data sheets and for case studies and all of that. There is a place for that. It's not in this film or series.
00:16:56
Jim Shields
because you're you're using it. It's a different tool. People go, oh, it's a video. No, it's not. It's not a video. You don't go, I'm going to sit down tonight with a bottle of wine and watch a video. You're not. You're going to watch a film or a TV series, your favorite one.
00:17:11
Jim Shields
It's a different product and it does a different job. And I developed this idea about the pyramid of communication where the first contact is the bit that we work on.
00:17:23
Jim Shields
It's the emotional bit. If you lead with 150 slides, that's a tough sell because what you're really asking for is two hours of their time and good luck with that, you know. But if you're just saying, listen, this is transactional, if you give me five minutes for an episode or 10 minutes,
00:17:40
Jim Shields
I will entertain you about your world in some way. That's the transaction. So give me the time, i will make you smile. And that's how it's gonna do, while you're eating your sandwich at your desk or however you wanna do it.
00:17:53
Jim Shields
this is the transaction. is and And what's great about that is when it's manageable in bite-sized pieces, which is why we we do episodes, we make it episodic, we're able to get more bandwidth across the line than a two-hour pitch session with specs and charts and wiring diagrams and all of those things.
00:17:57
Brendan Ziolo
Thank you.
00:18:14
Jim Shields
And that's that's that it's a different animal. It's really important. The truth. The truth is our defense. If it's accurate, it's justifiable. we're we're We're framing the humorous side of it as a delivery mechanism for serious messages.
00:18:26
Brendan Ziolo
you
00:18:29
Jim Shields
Don't confuse it with being silly or disrespectful. That's just entertainment as a carrier for the message that you need about the brand. And that's that's really a lot of the building blocks of of how we do this. the The thing you mentioned earlier about watering it down in some way, watered down comedy isn't safe. It's just ineffective.
00:18:52
Jim Shields
It just doesn't work.
00:18:52
Brian O'Grady
Yeah,
00:18:54
Jim Shields
It just won't work. It's as simple as that. you and you know you you can really yeah You can really crash the plane by not flying fast enough off the ground you know to clear the trees, if you know what I mean.
00:19:07
Jim Shields
you got of
00:19:07
Brian O'Grady
yeah, go for it or don't go for it, but don't go halfway.
00:19:09
Jim Shields
You've got to go, yeah, go or don't go. And that is an understanding that is built in from the beginning at the meetings and the the presentation, the pitch meeting at the very beginning. And I think being making them feel that the worst thing we can do is the average thing, is the bare minimum. That's the worst thing they can do.
00:19:29
Jim Shields
but And they know it. Deep down, they know They do.
Emotional Connections in B2B Marketing
00:19:32
Jim Shields
And luckily, we've built up enough experience doing this many times that the risks are minimized. and the But the benefits are, are as as you know, quite rich. so you know
00:19:44
Brian O'Grady
That's brilliant. The next thing you're going to say that B2B marketers are actually all human beings at heart and we all functions.
00:19:49
Jim Shields
I am? Oh, but well, that's I'm going to save that for later because that is the the big revelation, is that B2B marketing is different than consumer marketing, and it and it shouldn't be.
00:20:02
Jim Shields
It's just a pathway like any other, and it starts at the same spot with a human being.
00:20:08
Brendan Ziolo
So i love I love some of the the tips and insights you're bringing here, Jim, with, you know, the the audience is how you find your character, you know, the problem of how you find your story, the tip the tip of the pyramid or the tip of the iceberg as being where you want to engage, not not lead with the base or the 150 slide deck.
00:20:20
Jim Shields
Yeah.
00:20:28
Jim Shields
Yeah.
00:20:30
Brendan Ziolo
I mean, that all makes a ton of sense to me.
00:20:31
Jim Shields
There's several tears to it.
00:20:33
Brendan Ziolo
And I think it would make a ton of sense to the audience as well. But at some point, you know, B2B, you know, we need to we need to convert, we need to deliver pipeline, and we need to deliver some messages around the product.
00:20:46
Jim Shields
Yeah.
00:20:50
Brendan Ziolo
So when you're when you're going through the creative process here to build out one of these series, are you starting with the story and figuring out how to weave the value prop in?
00:21:02
Brendan Ziolo
Does the value prop sit front and center and you work around that? Kind of walk us through how you connect the dots here.
00:21:09
Jim Shields
Okay, well, I'm really glad you said value proposition and not product because the product has got no place in this, which will horrify certain product marketers. But the the value proposition is the story because let's take a really good example with the new guy series. One of the issues in the industry was at the time and probably still is, is vendor lock in.
00:21:33
Jim Shields
like and what with you know we see this in consumer as well with apple you know you buy you buy an apple cable it's you know 50 bucks and you know you buy one from timu and it's two bucks and you know guess what they both kind of work you know so with this idea of vendor lock-in we wrote a thread into the story that that this new guy was from a smaller more agile company And that the the big stodgy company acquired that company and was trying to impose its ways upon the small, nimble team. And through those, we could cherry pick the really with laser precision. We could
Integrating Product Messaging into Narratives
00:22:11
Jim Shields
cherry pick the issues that the company was having. And this was through, you know, there are lots of meetings where I got to talk to, you know,
00:22:18
Jim Shields
marketing people as well as salespeople as well. I always try to talk to someone who's had first contact with a customer. What you know, they hear day to day stories. I go, what is your lived experience? i want to know.
00:22:29
Jim Shields
Tell me what these people care about. What keeps them up at night? And I take all of that and we go, you know, Rob, my writer partner, and I go off into the cave and it all comes out.
00:22:41
Jim Shields
And then we have the lovely what if session, because once people, the workshop to get the story down is such an important part of the process, because the marketers are involved with scribbling all over the wall, there's lines connecting things, it looks like a murder scene inquiry, you know, we're we're finding uh where the story is and it's just as good as any other story if somebody's if there's friction if there's grit in in this story somewhere it's interesting if people get upset or frustrated if people get get fired yeah it all you know it happens and there are echelons within the customers companies that
00:23:14
Brian O'Grady
get fired.
00:23:23
Jim Shields
the the the CIO will be familiar with. there There's always some guy who's on customer support and is just like rattling out a script, you know, and they may hate that, but it's just how it's done, you know.
00:23:35
Jim Shields
So we look at all of the the facets of the customer experience for them. and go, how can we make that guy go, oh man, finally somebody gets me and that's my goal is to do that.
00:23:46
Brendan Ziolo
Thank
00:23:49
Jim Shields
And once you've got that, you can put anything else down it except a product or a logo because this is sponsored by the brand.
00:24:03
Jim Shields
If you talk to us, these are our, what you're saying is, in real shorthand, you're saying these are our values. These are what we care about. And we may just...
00:24:11
Brian O'Grady
My my
00:24:12
Brendan Ziolo
And I think, I think what was cool when we did the new guide, Jim was we weaved in product and solution and other material as an afterthought, right?
00:24:23
Brendan Ziolo
We led with this to your tip of the pyramid and then we drilled down and then we drilled down.
00:24:24
Jim Shields
Yeah. It gets reverse engineered, yeah.
00:24:29
Brendan Ziolo
And I think that was what was really. Effective and driving this interest into, into something more on the demand side. And also I think it did help sell it internally. Right. Cause then we were like, okay, wait, we're not talking product here.
00:24:42
Brendan Ziolo
But look at all the things we're connecting it to further down. So I think it's you know it's not one piece of content that will never be seen.
00:24:49
Jim Shields
No.
00:24:49
Brendan Ziolo
Sorry, it's not one piece of content that you never see anything else.
00:24:52
Jim Shields
It's an ecosystem.
00:24:53
Brendan Ziolo
It's a whole building block and structure
00:24:55
Jim Shields
do
Success Stories and the Value of Humor in B2B
00:24:56
Brendan Ziolo
that needs to be thought through.
00:24:56
Jim Shields
remember waiting Do you remember we interviewed a couple of executives? To my shame, I can't remember their names, but but actually they talked about the real world thing and related it to the inside man.
00:25:06
Brendan Ziolo
Yeah.
00:25:07
Jim Shields
We had a little behind the scenes documentary thing that's other content. If you look at the pyramid, that's the next layer down.
00:25:12
Brendan Ziolo
Yeah.
00:25:15
Brendan Ziolo
Yeah.
00:25:15
Jim Shields
This is how we play.
00:25:15
Brendan Ziolo
I think I was one, I think I was one of those suckers you conned in. Cause I, yeah I remember, I still remember to this day I had my makeup done.
00:25:19
Jim Shields
There
00:25:22
Brendan Ziolo
It was very exciting. But yeah.
00:25:26
Jim Shields
was a little going on around here, I'm not going to lie.
00:25:26
Brendan Ziolo
i Yeah.
00:25:29
Jim Shields
that's it
00:25:29
Brendan Ziolo
David Price- think i might have had a bit of more hair than two but yeah the behind the scenes was another great way that's another good point on how you could connect additional message and messages here sorry Brian we're going down a trip down memory lane here.
00:25:34
Jim Shields
Yeah.
00:25:39
Jim Shields
Yeah.
00:25:43
Brendan Ziolo
David Price- yeah yeah do you want to do you want to ask our favorite question of the of the session.
00:25:43
Jim Shields
Yeah, sorry, we went down a rabbit hole.
00:25:43
Brian O'Grady
I love it.
00:25:46
Brian O'Grady
Well,
00:25:51
Brian O'Grady
I do. Thank you, Brendan. and And Jim, before I do, so buckle up, you're gonna get you're going to get the B2B marketing pint classic question in a moment.
00:25:57
Brendan Ziolo
All right.
00:25:59
Jim Shields
Oh, okay, I'm ready.
00:25:59
Brian O'Grady
Be prepared. But before I do that, I want to point out, I think you just echoed in in your response to Brendan's question there, uh, the same philosophy that was behind the invention of the soap opera on radio, which was, Hey, we're going to create these dramas.
00:26:13
Brian O'Grady
People want to listen to. And in between, we're going have commercials and get our people get our message across that way.
00:26:14
Jim Shields
Yeah.
00:26:17
Jim Shields
There you go. but About their lives, and they can relate to it. You've already got their attention, you've opened up a channel of communication, and now we're just gonna poke a little offer down there.
00:26:28
Brian O'Grady
Yeah. Very cool.
00:26:29
Brendan Ziolo
And aren't they called soap operas because of the company that sponsored them the first in the very first case?
00:26:29
Brian O'Grady
What's all what's up the new.
00:26:32
Jim Shields
Yeah, Johnson & Johnson and Potter & Gamble and those people.
00:26:32
Brian O'Grady
yeah
00:26:34
Brendan Ziolo
Yeah.
00:26:35
Brian O'Grady
And if that company still exists, we can be bought.
00:26:38
Jim Shields
Yeah.
00:26:39
Brian O'Grady
We're looking for a sponsor and just putting that out there.
00:26:42
Brendan Ziolo
hu
00:26:42
Jim Shields
but
00:26:42
Brian O'Grady
It should probably be a beer sponsor, but if you know, you get to sleep on that sometimes after a beer too.
00:26:43
Brendan Ziolo
Excellent.
00:26:45
Jim Shields
This is the home of storytelling, folks.
00:26:49
Brendan Ziolo
Congratulations, Brian. We waited till almost the 20 some minute mark before we made our first plug for sponsorship.
00:26:54
Brian O'Grady
It's true. True.
00:26:56
Brendan Ziolo
We normally we normally hit much earlier when we're talking beer, Jim. So yeah, that we we we held back today.
00:27:00
Jim Shields
No. Right. Brilliant.
00:27:04
Brian O'Grady
All right, Jim, it's it's time to get serious about not being serious.
00:27:08
Jim Shields
Okay.
00:27:09
Brian O'Grady
This is this is the perennial favorite. Well, favorite of ours. i don't know if a favorite of our guests or not, brenan but I'm pretty old favorite question on B2B Marketing Pipe.
00:27:14
Jim Shields
Mm-hmm.
00:27:17
Brian O'Grady
There's people listening right now who are in your space. There's people listening right now who are outside of your space.
00:27:21
Brendan Ziolo
Thank
00:27:22
Brian O'Grady
This is your chance. We've given you, if you'll excuse the pun, a soapbox. And this is your opportunity to burst some bubbles, to destroy some myths, to get rid of them, because there's a lot of baloney out there about humor in B2B marketing.
00:27:38
Brian O'Grady
And you have an opportunity right now to burst the biggest bubble, destroy a myth. What's the one that makes you the most angry and makes you grit your teeth when you bump into it incessantly that you'd like to get rid of today?
00:27:52
Jim Shields
Okay, well, the biggest myth I can talk about, and I hinted at it earlier, is
00:27:59
Jim Shields
the biggest myth in B2B is that the audience stops being human when they get to work. Simple as that. Because, you know, we love a good story. And, you know, if you make it, things that people get bogged down with, things like the length of the video, for example, the length of the episode or the film or whatever it might be.
00:28:18
Jim Shields
I always say that, that that the the length isn't terrible, it's the fact that the story is crap that's the problem. you feel it's too long?
00:28:28
Jim Shields
and I wanna make things that you can't let go.
00:28:31
Brian O'Grady
Yeah, noticing the clock, there's a problem.
00:28:31
Jim Shields
I'm i'm proud. Yeah, I'm proud to say that a lot the content I make, there are true fans out there, especially with things like Restricted Intelligence and The Inside Man. I know the new guy had fans.
00:28:45
Jim Shields
and and people watched the whole series. And what they do is they they chase the IT guy down the corridor to go, when's the next episode coming out? I need to know. Nobody does that with cybersecurity training.
00:28:57
Jim Shields
Nobody does that.
00:28:57
Brian O'Grady
Yeah.
00:28:59
Jim Shields
Yeah? So to have achieved that means that the theory holds for me that if you make it compelling enough and fascinating enough, and it kind of relates to where you work a little bit and you think, yeah, I care now. You're making people care.
00:29:13
Jim Shields
Whereas if you bombard them with the 150 slides, they kind of don't care. they you're You're asking a lot of them. You will make them want to get involved with the 150 slides.
00:29:27
Brian O'Grady
To be clear, you are maintaining your position that inside these glass towers with the logos, those things are full of real living, breathing human beings.
00:29:27
Jim Shields
It's context.
00:29:36
Jim Shields
Yeah. Yeah. And name however you might argue that this is more analytical than a B2C pitch, it's they're going to make an emotional connection with it.
00:29:37
Brian O'Grady
Huh.
00:29:45
Jim Shields
They're going to have some kind of well, I don't know if it's close. I just feel good about these guys. I just feel like they have the right idea. This is innovative. Therefore, they will be innovative for us. You know, there's a lot of that by attachment sort of values going on there.
00:30:01
Jim Shields
and and communicating values is hard because most of us have read a mission statement and that doesn't make any sense. It's
00:30:10
Jim Shields
<unk> just flat lines. yeah Because it was a committee of 10 people that wrote the mission statement and they all needed their department in there. So now it's half a page long and it's you're done, put a fork in it. you know
00:30:22
Brian O'Grady
Agreed. One of my web heroes, Jerry McGovern, I used to say that the single worst way to design a website was to get 10 smart people around the table with lattes. And they're also writing mission statements when they're not doing websites.
00:30:35
Jim Shields
Of course, yeah, yeah, yeah, there you go. It's a nightmare. But that is that is the biggest myth-busting thing.
00:30:38
Brendan Ziolo
Thank
00:30:40
Jim Shields
there's also a There's also a few things that marketers get wrong. Well, you mentioned before about the other team that come in to go, okay, so we're going to need to talk about overloading. we'll We'll have a script talk about this feature that we're really proud of.
00:30:56
Jim Shields
And then i I have to say, okay, what would the world look like without this feature? And they go, oh, well, it would be like this. And I go, well, we're going to do that. We're not going to show your feature. like Why not? Because we want people to see the gap.
00:31:10
Jim Shields
We don't want people to see the thing.
00:31:11
Brian O'Grady
until the absence.
00:31:12
Jim Shields
Don't let customers make their own mind up whether they can you know use that or not. don't that That's the heavy lifting part. Just to identify with with the vacancy that is there and make sure and just tell them that you understand the vacancy.
00:31:29
Brian O'Grady
That makes a lot of sense. And i've been I've been part of so many discussions around marketing tables where people are saying, how do we demonstrate that we understand our audience's pain, that we understand their pain points?
00:31:34
Brendan Ziolo
Thank you.
00:31:40
Brian O'Grady
And you just described it.
00:31:40
Jim Shields
Yeah, that's it
00:31:44
Jim Shields
Yeah, two you two sort of people two types of people in the world, those who bring pain and those who take it away. As simple as that. Oh, there's a third type, and they're the ones you don't know. yeah
00:31:53
Brian O'Grady
yeah making Making you the ibuprofen of B2B marketing pint, I suppose.
00:31:58
Jim Shields
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:31:59
Brian O'Grady
Brendan, where to from here?
00:32:01
Brendan Ziolo
Well, I think, unfortunately, we're we're running short on time. So, you know, we're at that time where where we need to wrap this up. But I do i do find it fascinating now, Brian, and I'm going to butcher this. Maybe Jim can clean it up for me afterwards. But we've now had a behavioral scientist.
00:32:19
Brendan Ziolo
and the comedian on our podcast talk about how B2B is just is not that different from B2C.
00:32:21
Jim Shields
Excellent.
00:32:26
Brendan Ziolo
So I feel like there's, you know, a behavioral scientist and a comedian walk into a bar type joke here coming up.
00:32:28
Jim Shields
Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.
00:32:32
Brian O'Grady
like,
00:32:33
Brendan Ziolo
So, Jim, if you can help, you know, clarify that, clean that up for us, we'll make sure we we post that when we make that live.
00:32:33
Jim Shields
Yeah.
00:32:42
Brendan Ziolo
But yeah, I think that parallel is is fascinating that two, I would argue, probably different different types of thinkers, highlighting the same myth here, totally, totally unprompted.
00:32:53
Brendan Ziolo
So very interesting.
00:32:54
Jim Shields
What is the problem to be solved? Yeah.
00:32:56
Brendan Ziolo
Yeah. But, but Jim, i I really appreciate your time. Like I said, at the outset, it was great to reconnect. I know it's been a few years, but happy that you're out for hire now and hoping we get to work together on some project in the future.
00:33:08
Jim Shields
I
00:33:12
Brendan Ziolo
But For now, I really appreciate you joining us on the podcast.
00:33:12
Jim Shields
love that. Yeah.
00:33:16
Brendan Ziolo
Great insights, great topic. And as Brian and I both said when we were were prepping for this, you know, hey, this is all about comedy and we're both big fans of that when it comes to B2B.
00:33:27
Brendan Ziolo
So makes it makes a ton of sense.
00:33:28
Jim Shields
Fantastic.
00:33:29
Brendan Ziolo
So really appreciate it, Jim.
00:33:31
Jim Shields
All right. Well, thank you, gentlemen. You've made this so easy to happen. It feels like we're just in a tavern down the town center. it etc
00:33:39
Brendan Ziolo
I was going to say that's the beer talking, Brian, when he said we made it easy.
00:33:41
Jim Shields
I feel like it might.
00:33:43
Jim Shields
This is great, guys.
00:33:43
Brian O'Grady
could be.
00:33:43
Brian O'Grady
Cheers.
00:33:43
Brendan Ziolo
But cheers.
00:33:44
Jim Shields
Thank you so much. Cheers and good luck with the rest of it.
00:33:48
Brendan Ziolo
All right. Thanks everyone.
00:33:52
Jim Shields
Bye.