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Ep 17: The Power of A License, Clear coat, and Stern Hats
44 Plays6 years ago
Scott and I give our thoughts on the current industry happenings. Always a fun time!
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction of Hosts
00:00:06
Speaker
Thanks for tuning in to the loser kid pinball podcast.
00:00:09
Speaker
You are on episode 17.
00:00:12
Speaker
I am Josh Roop and with me, my cohost, uh, Scott Larson.
00:00:17
Speaker
And how are you doing today, Scott?
00:00:19
Speaker
No, no, life's really good.
00:00:20
Speaker
Uh, been, been pretty busy.
00:00:22
Speaker
I haven't been able to play much pinball, but, uh, been trying to go down just, uh, uh, for 30 minutes a day or so and just, uh, playing around on my machines.
00:00:31
Speaker
Um,
00:00:32
Speaker
Nothing really big is going on with me.
00:00:34
Speaker
What about you, Josh?
Josh's New Living Situation and Pinball Plans
00:00:35
Speaker
It's been busy.
00:00:36
Speaker
We sold the house.
00:00:38
Speaker
We've moved in to what we call the farmhouse with my in-laws.
00:00:42
Speaker
It's off the backside of their property.
00:00:44
Speaker
And I've been able to play pinball here and there a little bit.
00:00:47
Speaker
But for the most part, I've done measuring to make sure I can fit them in there.
00:00:51
Speaker
And I've realized I can make my collection bigger now that we live here.
00:00:55
Speaker
So I'm pretty excited.
00:00:57
Speaker
So...
00:00:58
Speaker
Yeah, good luck with that because you're still having to buy a house and you're still going to have to come up with a big fat check when you go to close the house.
00:01:04
Speaker
So I'd hold off a little bit.
00:01:07
Speaker
Maybe just get a Jurassic Park Pro.
00:01:09
Speaker
Maybe, maybe.
00:01:09
Speaker
Well, and may I'll look for some of the cheaper ones, you know, maybe get some throwbacks or something.
00:01:14
Speaker
Who knows?
00:01:14
Speaker
There you go, earth shakers coming your way.
00:01:18
Speaker
Yeah.
Frustrations and Joys of Playing Pinball
00:01:19
Speaker
Well, and I'm kind of to that point, I think everyone gets to this point in their pinball stuff and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm kind of at that point where I'm getting a little bit frustrated because I'll have really good games and then I can't keep the ball up to save my life.
00:01:34
Speaker
And so I'm like, is it just me?
00:01:36
Speaker
Do I need to take a break?
00:01:38
Speaker
Because there's not really much to do at the farmhouse.
00:01:41
Speaker
And so I've been playing a ton of pinball.
00:01:43
Speaker
And so I don't know if I'm overdoing it now because every second I get, I go play that.
00:01:49
Speaker
But either that or the new Switch came out with the new Super Nintendo Online, and I've been playing the crap out of Link to the Past.
00:01:55
Speaker
Love that game.
00:01:58
Speaker
Oh, nice.
00:01:59
Speaker
Yeah, I saw that came up.
00:02:01
Speaker
I haven't really had much time to try it out.
00:02:03
Speaker
Dude, it's so worth it.
00:02:05
Speaker
It's so good.
00:02:07
Speaker
Now, I think what happens sometimes is when you're playing pinball, you go down tangents.
00:02:14
Speaker
This is why I think it's not uncommon for people to get a grand champion score when they first get it within the first week.
00:02:23
Speaker
And then for the next six months, their scores don't even come close to it.
00:02:27
Speaker
Because instead of just playing to play,
00:02:31
Speaker
You start going down rabbit holes and saying, oh, well, I want to go down this goal objective on the game or this goal objective.
00:02:40
Speaker
And it's probably not that lucrative scoring-wise.
00:02:43
Speaker
But when you first get a game, all you care about is getting multiball and just trying to hit as many targets as you possibly can before you drain.
00:02:51
Speaker
So that's not uncommon.
00:02:53
Speaker
One, I think, too, I'm trying to also work on my pinball skills.
00:02:56
Speaker
I'm trying to do...
00:02:57
Speaker
drop catches and, and loop passes and all that stuff.
00:03:00
Speaker
And so I think when you, when you're able to do a skill, it feels very satisfying, but when you fail at that skill and you drain out a ball, you're like, gosh, dang it.
00:03:10
Speaker
I got to start this all over again.
00:03:12
Speaker
I I've been working on live catching, um, and, uh, and one handed saves as opposed to slap save, just, uh, trying to, to Nick the ball over to the other side.
00:03:24
Speaker
So I've been trying to do a lot more of that.
00:03:26
Speaker
And yeah, it does change how you play games.
00:03:30
Speaker
It's a little non-intuitive just because of how it works out, but it's still a lot of fun.
00:03:36
Speaker
Oh, yeah.
00:03:38
Speaker
So I'm pretty stoked.
00:03:39
Speaker
I got Attack from Mars in...
00:03:42
Speaker
And started playing the crap out of that.
00:03:44
Speaker
I've owned that for over a year now.
00:03:46
Speaker
I got it for my birthday last year, the limited edition.
00:03:49
Speaker
And as soon as I got it into the farmhouse, I put my name up on the high score twice within like the first three plays.
00:03:54
Speaker
And so I was like, sweet, I'm going to be better here.
00:03:57
Speaker
And then I haven't done jack squat.
00:03:59
Speaker
So.
00:04:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:04:00
Speaker
Well, it's the same.
00:04:01
Speaker
It's the same philosophy.
00:04:03
Speaker
It's just getting in and playing for pure enjoyment.
00:04:06
Speaker
But it seems like you get to that point and then you...
00:04:11
Speaker
go down, but at the same time, after you get to a point where you're doing strategies and saying, this is how I maximize the points.
00:04:21
Speaker
And you look at the elite players when they approach a game, they always have a strategy.
00:04:25
Speaker
When Eric Stone was out here, an elite player, and they were giving advice, he said, the most important thing is when you go up to a machine, make sure you have a plan.
00:04:37
Speaker
Like, what are you planning on doing?
00:04:40
Speaker
And if you look at the elite players when they're playing ACDC, they can triple your score with five shots.
00:04:50
Speaker
You could be playing for 10 minutes.
00:04:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:04:52
Speaker
Just because they know how the multipliers work and how things go.
00:04:54
Speaker
Yeah.
00:04:56
Speaker
Well, my question to you is I haven't got up to Salt Lake yet.
Scott's Interest in Jurassic Park Pinball
00:04:59
Speaker
I've been dying to do Jurassic park when we were up there two weeks ago, I had my son with me, but the family friendly arcade had not got theirs in yet.
00:05:06
Speaker
And I am not taking my son to a brewery.
00:05:09
Speaker
Well, cause first Utah doesn't allow that, but I haven't got my hands on a Jurassic park pro or premium yet.
00:05:16
Speaker
Have you got to play one yet?
00:05:18
Speaker
No, no, I, I haven't.
00:05:19
Speaker
Uh, well, and the pros are pros are the only ones that are out right now, unless you have a limited edition, but, um,
00:05:25
Speaker
Yeah, I haven't been able to get up there either.
00:05:28
Speaker
It's been busy for me.
00:05:31
Speaker
I'm still very interested in getting one, and I'm looking at which games I want to move along so I can make room for it.
00:05:41
Speaker
But yeah, I haven't been able to get my hands physically on it yet.
00:05:45
Speaker
But still, I have yet to hear a negative thing about it.
00:05:50
Speaker
aside from your usual, Hey, this thing snapped off or this didn't work when I got it from Stern or, you know, or, or any manufacturer really.
00:05:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:59
Speaker
But I've never heard anyone say, yeah, the gameplay stale or this gets old or I really don't like this shot.
00:06:06
Speaker
I've never heard anybody say anything like that, which is really rare in pinball nowadays.
Innovations in Pinball Design
00:06:12
Speaker
It seems that everybody wants to, everyone has to tear down a machine, especially on pin side when it certainly comes out and,
00:06:19
Speaker
I haven't heard any of that.
00:06:22
Speaker
So I'm still looking forward to getting a premium Jurassic Park.
00:06:25
Speaker
I haven't heard anybody complain about the gameplay or the rules or the shots.
00:06:31
Speaker
There are your little nuts and bolts of things of, hey, this lock didn't work or this thing was banged up.
00:06:38
Speaker
But that's what you're going to get with any sort of delivery.
00:06:41
Speaker
But I've been pretty impressed with how consistent the praise has been for the game.
00:06:48
Speaker
perhaps it's a combination of having an elite level player like Keith designing it.
00:06:56
Speaker
And so it flows well for everybody.
00:06:59
Speaker
That's one option too.
00:07:00
Speaker
Keith is the new kid on the block and he's been able to bring something that previously has not been in pinball.
00:07:07
Speaker
And so maybe we're still in the honeymoon stage.
00:07:10
Speaker
Either way, it's an excellent game and I can't wait to get it downstairs.
00:07:14
Speaker
Well, and I agree with you there.
00:07:15
Speaker
I think,
00:07:17
Speaker
I think the level of pinball is definitely the bar of pinball is being raised.
00:07:22
Speaker
between Scott Denise's TNA, Eric Meniere's Pirates of the Caribbean, and now Keith Owen with Iron Maiden and with Jurassic Park.
00:07:33
Speaker
I think the game's changing.
00:07:34
Speaker
We're seeing a whole different kind of game, and it's a great time to be in pinball right now.
00:07:41
Speaker
Like you said, no one's complaining about Jurassic Park.
00:07:44
Speaker
We still have Eric Meniere's game, which, cross your fingers,
00:07:50
Speaker
October, November is my guess.
00:07:52
Speaker
We don't have any confirmation, nothing like that.
00:07:55
Speaker
And then from my estimation, we'll hear about Scott Denise's haunted house party by the end of the year, just because of Charlie and them saying that they'll be wrapping up Alex, Alice Cooper's in December, and they're going to have to have another game on the line then, you know?
Challenges in Pinball Manufacturing
00:08:11
Speaker
Yeah, they're going to have to.
00:08:13
Speaker
And if Spooky can get to a game a year, and really if Jersey Jack can get to a game a year, I know they say they want to have two games a year, but let's start first things first.
00:08:23
Speaker
If they can get a game a year, that will be a big step forward into the predictability of the manufacturing process from all the manufacturers.
00:08:32
Speaker
So I like this new direction.
00:08:37
Speaker
It certainly is opening avenues.
00:08:39
Speaker
The great part about having some of these legacy designers is they're legacy designers for a reason, because they're producing some excellent play fields.
00:08:48
Speaker
The challenge is if you don't bring in new blood, then you typically recycle similar fields.
00:08:57
Speaker
And that's not a bad thing, but it does feel...
00:09:14
Speaker
So it'll be, it's really an exciting time.
00:09:18
Speaker
The last 10 years have been a wild ride for pinball.
00:09:20
Speaker
It really has.
00:09:21
Speaker
I mean, even just the last five have been such a step up.
00:09:25
Speaker
It's crazy.
00:09:26
Speaker
I keep thinking, you know, we claim some people complain about, you know, black night wasn't their cup of tea or, or Munsters is, is just not up to par, but I'm thinking about it.
00:09:38
Speaker
I'm like, dude, let's, let's look 10 years back.
00:09:41
Speaker
Let's look to 2009.
00:09:41
Speaker
You had,
00:09:44
Speaker
You want to go back to Big Bug Hunter?
00:09:46
Speaker
Even then, yeah.
00:09:48
Speaker
Wheel of Fortune?
00:09:49
Speaker
Monopoly?
00:09:50
Speaker
Really, 2000 to 2010, we had what?
00:09:52
Speaker
Lord of the Rings and Tron.
00:09:53
Speaker
We had two hits in a decade of time.
00:09:58
Speaker
Well, you have Lord of the Rings.
00:09:59
Speaker
You have Simpsons.
00:10:01
Speaker
You have Spider-Man.
00:10:03
Speaker
Wasn't Spider-Man 2010?
00:10:05
Speaker
No.
00:10:05
Speaker
Okay.
00:10:09
Speaker
No.
00:10:10
Speaker
And then you have the Stern Pirates of the Caribbean.
00:10:14
Speaker
Those are the four from that entire decade that really stand out.
00:10:19
Speaker
Well, and I wouldn't even consider like Pirates of the Caribbean from Stern is good, but I wouldn't consider a smash hit.
00:10:26
Speaker
I could be entirely wrong, though.
00:10:29
Speaker
That's just from my personal... I wouldn't say it's a smash hit, but I think it's a solid game.
00:10:32
Speaker
I like mine and that ship mechanism is still quite intuitive.
00:10:41
Speaker
Ingenious, I guess, is the word I'm looking for.
00:10:45
Speaker
It's a very solid game in a doldrums of 10 years.
00:10:53
Speaker
That was when... What's that documentary that's horrible?
00:11:00
Speaker
Special one lit?
00:11:01
Speaker
Yeah, special one lit when it makes everyone look like they're socially awkward.
00:11:06
Speaker
And yeah, it just felt like, yeah, pinball is dead.
00:11:12
Speaker
So in that 10 years, you had four games that really stand out.
00:11:15
Speaker
That seems shocking to me.
00:11:17
Speaker
I agree.
00:11:18
Speaker
And in the last, I guarantee you could at least have 12 to 15 games that I would love having.
00:11:27
Speaker
Yeah, so Spider-Man came out in 2007.
00:11:28
Speaker
Gotcha.
00:11:29
Speaker
But I mean, let's look at the last five years.
00:11:32
Speaker
2006, 2007.
00:11:33
Speaker
The last turd, the universally, like not praise, sorry, the universally agreed upon turd is WWE.
00:11:40
Speaker
And I remember that one coming out when I first got into the hobby because I thought, who makes the WWE machine?
00:11:50
Speaker
Well, it's one of those things where you have to... This is the challenge with pinballs.
00:11:57
Speaker
When it's growing, there are more audiences they want to go into, and they want to bring new money into pinball.
00:12:04
Speaker
So if you keep releasing the same things, guess what?
00:12:06
Speaker
You're going to be recycling among the same collectors.
00:12:09
Speaker
But if you try different things, and not everything's going to be a success.
00:12:14
Speaker
That certainly was not a success, but I...
00:12:17
Speaker
appreciate that they were trying to find a different avenue in a different market.
00:12:23
Speaker
And really, they had a designer who was willing to try those, I guess, those things, you know, Mustang, WWE, the ones that didn't have that mass appeal.
00:12:41
Speaker
However, I think that even since then, they've been able to upgrade significantly and they have been able to have pretty significant hits, at least solid games.
00:12:51
Speaker
You may not get a smash hit every time, but you can get a solid game.
00:12:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:55
Speaker
So after WWE, I'd probably take about any of those games in a home collection.
00:13:00
Speaker
I agree.
00:13:01
Speaker
Even with people complaining about Ghostbusters, I still think the pro is a good game.
00:13:05
Speaker
I mean, yeah, the code needs to be worked on, but if that's really your weakest point, the nice part about code is it can always be fixed.
00:13:12
Speaker
It just depends if they go back and fix it.
00:13:14
Speaker
So...
00:13:15
Speaker
Yeah, I don't really see them doing much with Ghost.
00:13:18
Speaker
I think they'll try to make it a passable game because the theme really did sell so much.
00:13:25
Speaker
I think there are other issues with it.
00:13:27
Speaker
The air balls, the linearity of the rule set, which, yeah, you said you can fix.
00:13:32
Speaker
The flipper gap is still just a challenge.
00:13:36
Speaker
The one thing that...
00:13:39
Speaker
I feel you don't really, people have universally said they don't like is adjusting that lower third of the play field.
00:13:47
Speaker
They're used to the slingshots where they are and they're used to the flippers where they are.
00:13:52
Speaker
You can have different in lanes and out lanes, but as long as that geometry is similar, then people are going to at least connect with the machine easier.
00:14:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:14:01
Speaker
Well, let's get into some of the news.
00:14:03
Speaker
It's all kind of the same old, same old, but I feel like I got a couple different perspectives than what people have been talking about.
00:14:11
Speaker
The first one I want to talk about, we've talked about this a couple times now, but Dutch pinball.
00:14:16
Speaker
It sounds like people are finally getting big Lebowski's.
00:14:21
Speaker
And here's my thought, because we've talked about this, not just us, every podcast for the last two years, there's always some kind of update.
00:14:29
Speaker
Dutch is doing this, Dutch is doing that.
00:14:32
Speaker
here's my perspective on all this.
00:14:36
Speaker
The power of a licensed theme is worth its weight in gold.
00:14:40
Speaker
If this big Lebowski was not big Lebowski, I think Dutch was dead and gone.
00:14:47
Speaker
Oh yeah.
00:14:47
Speaker
Way, way, way ago.
00:14:49
Speaker
And the reason I say this, I love that people are trying new things.
00:14:52
Speaker
I love there's new pinball companies.
00:14:55
Speaker
Um, I respect what like team pinball's doing and, uh, what sun coast pinball's doing.
00:15:01
Speaker
but they've already limited their games to a certain amount of numbers to help drive the cell of their pinball machines.
00:15:08
Speaker
And so
00:15:09
Speaker
They've all done them under 100, but look at big Lebowski people.
00:15:14
Speaker
The company has proven themselves, in my opinion, that they're not trustworthy.
00:15:19
Speaker
I mean, look at the first-time backers still haven't gotten their games.
00:15:23
Speaker
And the games that originally came out, weren't they 6,500 when they first came out?
00:15:26
Speaker
I don't know, 12,500?
00:15:28
Speaker
Twice, yeah.
00:15:29
Speaker
Yeah, they're 12,500.
00:15:31
Speaker
And people are lining up in droves to play this game.
00:15:35
Speaker
And I guess it comes down to one, two things.
00:15:37
Speaker
Power of license.
00:15:39
Speaker
And the playability of the game, the design's good.
00:15:42
Speaker
I've never personally played it myself.
00:15:44
Speaker
I've watched some videos on it, but that's, what's crazy to me is this company that should be gone.
00:15:50
Speaker
We shouldn't even be talking about now.
00:15:52
Speaker
They should be a skip B, you know, with the whole predator fiasco skip B actually didn't even have the license.
00:15:59
Speaker
So true.
00:16:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:03
Speaker
With Dutch pinball, you're right.
00:16:05
Speaker
It is the power and the, um,
00:16:09
Speaker
especially a niche theme like the Big Lebowski.
00:16:13
Speaker
Now, I will say, in its defense, Joe Lemire, from Head to Head, he has said, look, it's a great game.
00:16:20
Speaker
And Joe's an excellent player, and so he would know if a game is clunky or not.
00:16:26
Speaker
And so...
00:16:27
Speaker
the fact that it actually still has uh... eight good layout not the layouts five years old now and so i don't know how well it's aged dot helps it as well it's not a it's not a magic girl has a beautiful theme you know unlicensed theme but it doesn't play well uh...
Dutch Pinball's Struggles and Licensed Themes
00:16:47
Speaker
Yes, it does.
00:16:50
Speaker
The challenge is I don't know how you would in good conscience buy something that I don't believe this is a long-term pinball company.
00:17:03
Speaker
And reliability is a big deal for me.
00:17:06
Speaker
And whether or not I can get parts or get other things to maintain my machines, that would make me wary of it.
00:17:14
Speaker
I've said it before that
00:17:17
Speaker
The only way that they probably could go forward with their company is this model, although it is distasteful that they're selling games that are purchased otherwise by other people.
00:17:31
Speaker
But the bottom line is that they didn't have any money.
00:17:33
Speaker
And so they needed to find some model to actually inject revenue back into it.
00:17:39
Speaker
But yes, it is all about the license.
00:17:42
Speaker
And that's really where, when you had Williams versus Dave East back in the day, that's where Williams lost.
00:17:54
Speaker
because Data East saw the writing on the wall and said, look, if we get a pre-packaged license that comes with its own pre-marketability,
00:18:05
Speaker
then we'll be able to sell more machines.
00:18:08
Speaker
If you look at the estimated budgets on machines, the reason why when they say the budget on a, sorry, not a machine, if you look at the budget on a movie and they say, I'll throw out some basic figures.
00:18:21
Speaker
If they say this movie cost $100 million to make, they actually need to make $200 million back because they have spent another $100 million to market that movie.
00:18:33
Speaker
And if you get a license, you buy into that marketing machine that other things have done.
00:18:41
Speaker
And so you're buying that instant connectivity with a product.
00:18:45
Speaker
It's really hard to get that with a...
00:18:50
Speaker
with an original theme.
00:18:51
Speaker
You can do it obviously with, uh, with total nuclear annihilation.
00:18:56
Speaker
Uh, Scott was able to sell that theme and that retro theme and it worked really well, but that's an outlier.
00:19:04
Speaker
It really is.
00:19:05
Speaker
Well, and here's what my thoughts have been also when you speak of Scott Denisi with total nuclear annihilation, um, he, uh,
00:19:14
Speaker
Got hype on that because he took it around as the whitewood before he was even planning on producing it.
00:19:22
Speaker
And people loved it and played the crap out of it and said, you've got to make this into a production machine.
00:19:26
Speaker
And so that's where I think that's, that's the only place in my opinion that you could get around not having a license is if you have a super killer.
00:19:37
Speaker
playing game, but then you have to get it out to the masses and then you're still putting in legwork because you got to take it to conventions.
00:19:44
Speaker
You got to make sure it's always working.
00:19:46
Speaker
Scott Denise, he just did it as a, as a love of the hobby and showing off what the P three could do.
00:19:52
Speaker
And it evolved.
00:19:54
Speaker
You know what I'm saying?
00:19:55
Speaker
Well, he said he wanted a game that he could play with his buddies.
00:19:57
Speaker
That's what he wanted.
00:19:58
Speaker
Because a lot of these games, they're really not the same type of game that you have people over.
00:20:05
Speaker
I do this when I go to other people's houses and...
00:20:09
Speaker
they're playing a game and they have a really long ball time, hey, if they have 12 machines, I'm going to wander over and play a different game.
00:20:16
Speaker
I'm not going to sit there and watch them play Lord of the Rings for 30 minutes.
00:20:20
Speaker
And so that catered to it.
00:20:22
Speaker
Also, don't forget that Scott designed an amazing soundtrack to that and an amazing light show.
00:20:30
Speaker
And so don't undermine...
00:20:32
Speaker
Yeah, don't undermine the power of the soundtrack and the light show integration.
00:20:37
Speaker
It reminds me.
00:20:38
Speaker
So they had a fan convention here in Utah last weekend, and I went to Empire Strikes Back.
00:20:46
Speaker
And it was really, one, it was a madhouse downtown because there was a big religious celebration.
00:20:55
Speaker
There was also a big fan celebration and the symphony.
00:20:58
Speaker
So all these three groups were trying to get downtown at the same time.
00:21:02
Speaker
but we went down and saw star war or empire strikes back with the symphony playing the background.
00:21:09
Speaker
It's a really cool concept.
00:21:10
Speaker
If anyone has, has the chance of doing it because movies are the modern day symphonies.
00:21:18
Speaker
And so if you play the movie and they're playing the soundtrack on the back at the same time, simultaneously, it's amazing.
00:21:26
Speaker
I don't know if you've ever seen it.
00:21:28
Speaker
Have you ever looked at footage of Star Wars, like the last scene where they're walking up and there's no sound or no music?
00:21:38
Speaker
I haven't.
00:21:38
Speaker
It looks ridiculous.
00:21:40
Speaker
It really does.
00:21:41
Speaker
And if you have, if you have Darth Vader there with the, with the actor, I can't remember his name, but it's not James Earl Jones's voice.
00:21:51
Speaker
And so it sounds very B movie esque, but when you add the sound and you add the integration, it really brought people in and,
00:22:01
Speaker
it elevated material beyond probably what it was.
00:22:06
Speaker
And really with what Scott Denisi did by elevating, by putting his soundtrack on it, it probably elevated his machine even more than what it would be if it was just a white wood without any sound or lights.
Marketing Non-Licensed Pinball Games
00:22:22
Speaker
I agree.
00:22:23
Speaker
Well, I guess my point being is, is you either do the legwork with a license or you've got to do the legwork another way if you don't go license wise.
00:22:33
Speaker
Right.
00:22:33
Speaker
And, and Scott did a great job with that with, he had the total package and really the only thing he didn't have was artwork.
00:22:40
Speaker
And then the artwork ended up turning out amazing.
00:22:42
Speaker
I love the artwork.
00:22:43
Speaker
I can't remember who they got to do it, but it's fantastic.
00:22:45
Speaker
And I think, I think it's the same thing with Archer.
00:22:48
Speaker
you know, yeah, Archer was a theme that people recognize, but they got their hands on it because Keith was taking it around to conventions.
00:22:55
Speaker
I'm like, this is what I want.
00:22:57
Speaker
This is what I want playing in a game.
00:22:58
Speaker
And so I think you either take it around to conventions and you... The problem is, is we've gotten into a weird place because like Dutch and Skip B and John Papaduke has made the pre-order model non-existent in pinball.
00:23:14
Speaker
And so...
00:23:16
Speaker
And everyone doesn't want to show off their project until it's 100% done.
00:23:19
Speaker
They want to unveil and say, hey, this is our new game.
00:23:22
Speaker
We have 10 of them ready.
00:23:25
Speaker
Buy them right now, and we're going to produce more.
00:23:28
Speaker
So you can't really be like, okay, we've made this game.
00:23:31
Speaker
We want feedback.
00:23:33
Speaker
Let's take it around to the conventions.
00:23:34
Speaker
Cause if you do that, then people are going to start taking pictures and put it on the internet and it's going to be so-and-so is producing the new back to the future or, you know what I'm saying?
00:23:43
Speaker
And so you can't really get outside general public opinions because you got to hide your product.
00:23:51
Speaker
And so I think that's where the hurdle comes.
00:23:55
Speaker
You either use the license to get you over that hurdle of people don't need to play it before buying it, or you put the legwork in and you take it around the conventions and you let everyone know, hey, this is what I'm making.
00:24:05
Speaker
Tell me if it's good.
00:24:06
Speaker
Tell me what I need to change.
00:24:08
Speaker
So...
00:24:09
Speaker
Yeah, there's a few things.
00:24:10
Speaker
Now, I will say the pre-order model is not specifically unique to pinball.
00:24:18
Speaker
These crowdsourcing investment ideas, there have been a lot of problems with a lot of Kickstarters.
00:24:27
Speaker
Um, and I, I've been a part of different Kickstarters, not really too much, but one of them was, uh, the coolest.
00:24:34
Speaker
And it's a, the bottom line is it's a cooler that has a blender and a speaker and it, it raised are like over $10 million.
00:24:43
Speaker
And I thought, you know, that sounds like fun.
00:24:44
Speaker
I'll just go ahead and buy one.
00:24:46
Speaker
Well, they ran out of money.
00:24:48
Speaker
And they basically said, Hey, we're, so they said, we're selling these new ones on Amazon and that money we're making from that is going to go toward the early backers.
00:25:01
Speaker
Does this sound familiar at all?
00:25:03
Speaker
And we'll be able to get you your products after we get these other products, or you can pay us, you know, I think it was like 150 bucks and we'll just get it to you.
00:25:12
Speaker
And so I just paid the money and yeah,
00:25:15
Speaker
So I think it's this internet, you know, it's the, it's the GoFundMe stuff.
00:25:20
Speaker
It's the, the internet.
00:25:21
Speaker
Everybody can contribute a little bit and still have some ties because the internet makes us more interconnected.
00:25:31
Speaker
So the challenge with that is there's a reason why most companies don't succeed is because, you know, manufacturing, anything is hard.
00:25:41
Speaker
It's not just pinball manufacturing.
00:25:43
Speaker
Anything is hard.
00:25:45
Speaker
So that's why when you see on Shark Tank or you see any of these shows, they may have a great idea, but either they can't make it for cheap enough money or there's no market for it.
00:25:55
Speaker
And we've seen individual people bringing stuff around.
00:26:01
Speaker
Look at the Wrath of Olympus game.
00:26:04
Speaker
The Wrath of Olympus game is a great game.
00:26:07
Speaker
And it was taken around to so many shows, but I don't think that it was really practical to manufacture.
00:26:16
Speaker
And so it really didn't get the attention that it needed if it was going to be mass produced.
00:26:22
Speaker
So, and it's a, it's a theme that, you know, okay.
00:26:26
Speaker
It's a, it's a, a general theme about, about gods and people understand them.
00:26:31
Speaker
It's, you know, it's a little bit like what American pinball is going after, but it still wasn't able to manufacture it the way that something like Archer was, you know, Keith was able to look at that and say, well, this is something that we can manufacture or even Scott Denise's game.
00:26:47
Speaker
Now also Scott Denise's game with a total nuclear annihilation, uh,
00:26:52
Speaker
That also, that's a success at 550.
00:26:54
Speaker
I guarantee the Stern wouldn't look at that as a success.
00:27:01
Speaker
Stern would look at that as a, like for Stern's business model, 550 would be a complete disaster.
00:27:08
Speaker
Because Stern's business model is they're going to produce 500 limited editions, probably 500 premiums or so, and then 1,000 to 1,500 pros.
00:27:24
Speaker
And that's really what the market's going to sustain.
00:27:26
Speaker
If there's, you know, we've estimated 10,000 to 15,000 machines a year.
00:27:31
Speaker
And if Stern is putting out three cornerstone games and they're capturing the vast majority of it, they're at least covering, you know, 7,500 or 8,000 of those machines.
00:27:43
Speaker
And so really, if you break down the numbers, it's not really a lot of games.
00:27:49
Speaker
And 500 would have been, you know, one, one fifth what they needed to sell to have a good game.
00:27:54
Speaker
Yeah.
00:27:56
Speaker
Well, and the thing with, with total nuclear annihilation Stern actually did approach Scott Denisi in buying that.
00:28:03
Speaker
If I remember correctly, he was on head to head and he said that he had multiple people offers on the table and Stern was even one of them.
00:28:10
Speaker
But if he wasn't Stern, he'd have to... I don't think it was an offer.
00:28:13
Speaker
I think it was a, hey, let's talk.
00:28:15
Speaker
Maybe that's what it was.
00:28:17
Speaker
Because he clarified that.
00:28:19
Speaker
He's like, you know, because he knows the guys at Stern too.
00:28:22
Speaker
And he said, you know, it was a, let's talk.
00:28:26
Speaker
But I also think that really for what Scott Denisi did, Spooky was the best place.
00:28:33
Speaker
But really, Spooky, they went outside their...
00:28:36
Speaker
business model because spooky isn't a horror stuff.
00:28:39
Speaker
And so for them to do a Scott Nisi, I mean, really that's a futuristic sci-fi thing that really isn't Charlie's thing, but it was a contract game that they could make money on.
00:28:50
Speaker
Yep.
00:28:51
Speaker
Well, and Charlie's even said himself that they're so grateful for the contract games they have had because it's kept the doors open during the other titles like Jetsons and, and Domino's and what have you.
00:29:02
Speaker
So, well, let's, let's move on to the next topic.
Clear Coat Issues in Pinball Machines
00:29:06
Speaker
Uh, clear coat that seems to be quite in the news lately.
00:29:10
Speaker
I really don't have much to say about this just for the simple fact.
00:29:12
Speaker
Um,
00:29:14
Speaker
I feel like if you want to hear about a four hour discussion, listen to the last two episodes of this week in pinball.
00:29:20
Speaker
I think Dennis and Zach covered it very well.
00:29:23
Speaker
And then the guys from poor man's pinball podcast.
00:29:25
Speaker
Hey guys.
00:29:27
Speaker
Hey Ian.
00:29:28
Speaker
Uh, they did really well as, as well, because if I remember correctly, Ian is the one in the clear coding industry right now.
00:29:34
Speaker
And so he gave his full opinion.
00:29:37
Speaker
My opinion right now of the whole clear coat situation, if something's going to be breaking the pinball machine, the very last thing I want to be is the play field.
00:29:48
Speaker
Because that's the thing that consumes the most time and money in my opinion.
00:29:52
Speaker
So whatever it takes, figure out the play field issues.
00:29:57
Speaker
I would rather anything else in the game break.
00:30:02
Speaker
Like I would even take a broken circuit board over a broken play field
00:30:07
Speaker
but not by much because these circuit boards are freaking ridiculously priced.
00:30:12
Speaker
And if you have a good warranty, like I've bought the Chicago gaming games and the limited editions come with a two year warranty, but they're even still pretty good to be flexible with you.
00:30:23
Speaker
Cause they know that they're in a home environment, a lot of the limited editions and they're not getting a beat on.
00:30:28
Speaker
And so that's my biggest concern.
00:30:31
Speaker
Like, I don't care if I have to repair it myself.
00:30:34
Speaker
So just, just don't be at the play field.
00:30:36
Speaker
That's, that's literally the only thing I do not want to fix is the play field.
00:30:40
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:40
Speaker
We, um, we were talking a little bit back and forth with our, uh, friends, especially when lit with, uh, Ken and Bill and, uh, and.
00:30:50
Speaker
the challenges from from an engineering standpoint you have to look at it from okay so what has changed because this seems like something that that creeps up every few years every three or four years where they're having some issues with the play field and that seems to go away for a while and then it comes back uh... uh... i'd i did some research and i i asked some people in the industry and uh... one person to get back and he said uh... well
00:31:20
Speaker
I can't really say much about it.
00:31:21
Speaker
However, there was a crackdown in the 90s with the EPA over certain chemicals used.
00:31:28
Speaker
And so that leads me to think that whatever process was successful in the past, it may have been successful, but probably not really manufacturing friendly or health friendly.
00:31:41
Speaker
And so they have had to try to figure out new processes.
00:31:45
Speaker
And so whether or not the chemicals are no longer available,
00:31:48
Speaker
or they're trying to go through because we're still having a similar system where you have a pitch and bat game under glass with a steel ball going around and hitting all these things.
00:32:03
Speaker
So once they figure out what the magic lexicon of how they're going to make the play fields, then they can move forward.
00:32:16
Speaker
The challenging thing is I don't think it's a cost issue because it's more of a...
00:32:25
Speaker
the manufacturer is trying to figure out the right recipe.
00:32:28
Speaker
It's so hard to actually predict the long-term viability of any sort of process because by the time you have made it and sent it out a year later, you may get some issues and then you're trying to fix it on the fly too.
00:32:44
Speaker
So they're very cautious to implement something into a mass production thing
00:32:51
Speaker
Um, so anyway, uh, we did, uh, reach, uh, we, we reached out to, uh, Chris at high end pinballs and he said that he was, uh, he was willing to come on the show.
00:33:04
Speaker
So I'd be interested to hear what his take is, because if you haven't checked out his thread and pin side, it's one of the best threads.
00:33:12
Speaker
And if you have any inkling on,
00:33:14
Speaker
restoring a game it is 100% the best thread because he goes through and all of his games are immaculate at the end I'd be interested to find out what his thoughts are because I know he still clear coats games
00:33:28
Speaker
So I want to find out, well, what's different about his coding process versus something that's mass production?
00:33:36
Speaker
Like, is his process even scalable?
00:33:38
Speaker
Because maybe it's not.
00:33:39
Speaker
And that's why the manufacturers haven't really approached him to give them advice.
00:33:45
Speaker
And the other thing I keep thinking about this, how many really is out there?
00:33:50
Speaker
I mean, numbers would really kind of fix this in my opinion.
00:33:52
Speaker
I'm in the heating and air conditioning business.
00:33:55
Speaker
You're not going to always make a product perfect every single time.
00:34:00
Speaker
With furnaces, they make thousands and thousands and thousands a year just for North America.
00:34:06
Speaker
And...
00:34:07
Speaker
their, their warranty rates like 0.019%.
00:34:11
Speaker
And it's just because that's actual failures from the factory.
00:34:17
Speaker
And when you think about it, if you're making even at 10,000, a hundred come back cause they're bad.
00:34:25
Speaker
That's not really that much.
00:34:27
Speaker
And so I don't know if this is like the whole,
00:34:31
Speaker
There was one bad batch and the squeaky wheel gets the oil because they go on to Facebook and complain or they go on Pinside and complain.
00:34:41
Speaker
I don't know how many of them actually have reached out to Stern.
00:34:44
Speaker
I know there was a gentleman that was on Facebook that was talking about...
00:34:48
Speaker
his iron maiden and the clear chipped and Stern sent him just a little vial of clear to stick over the spot.
00:34:56
Speaker
And then it got worse.
00:34:57
Speaker
But then when he started talking about on Facebook, Stern, Stern reached out to him on Facebook and said, Hey, contact us.
00:35:03
Speaker
We'll get this resolved for you.
00:35:05
Speaker
I think that's really what it comes down to.
00:35:07
Speaker
If I have an issue, I just want the manufacturer to stand behind it.
00:35:12
Speaker
I get that.
00:35:13
Speaker
I get you get, you get one of two of the spectrums.
00:35:17
Speaker
You get spooky who have, I guess, obviously gotten their clear process down to a T and they're not sharing that with anyone because they don't have issues with their clear coding process.
00:35:28
Speaker
But because of the quality control that they have behind their product, it takes a little longer for their product to get out.
00:35:34
Speaker
Right.
00:35:35
Speaker
Versus stern that, that man gets other people to manufacture different parts of the machine.
00:35:42
Speaker
They stick it all together in a box and they ship it out.
00:35:44
Speaker
And so they can't guarantee that the clear coat process is perfect because when they get it, it looks great to them.
00:35:52
Speaker
They're like, this looks good.
00:35:53
Speaker
You know, you slap all the stuff on it, you slap it in a box and you ship it out.
00:35:57
Speaker
And so.
00:35:59
Speaker
it's not till you're out in the main public, then these things start showing up.
00:36:02
Speaker
Same with JJP.
00:36:03
Speaker
But like, like I've said, Stern has saying that it's not a widespread issue.
00:36:08
Speaker
And Jersey Jack has said that he's not going to come out until he gets back to the States.
00:36:14
Speaker
I just, I don't know how big of a problem that says, I know Mr. And Mrs. Pitt and said on head to head that they noticed the same problem with the Wonka's on theirs, but they would have never noticed it because it's so minuscule.
00:36:28
Speaker
that they just didn't know and so that's one of those things now they're like well crap do we do we throw a fit about this do we set and watch what do we do you know what i'm saying yeah it it also seems that what what what are you looking for i if you look at um the play fields in the 90s in the heyday of valley williams
00:36:48
Speaker
they had issues too.
00:36:50
Speaker
Not necessarily play fields, but the manufacturing process, it wasn't perfect.
00:36:54
Speaker
The home market didn't exist.
00:36:56
Speaker
And so all the arcade operators would have to tweak everything that they would get anyway.
00:37:02
Speaker
I also think that it's, you know, this is a sad reality in a lot of
00:37:08
Speaker
what we see in society nowadays that it's focusing on the negative.
00:37:13
Speaker
And really when your lenses are finely tuned to that, that's pretty much all you see.
00:37:19
Speaker
You don't see all the amazing other stuff.
00:37:21
Speaker
And I'm not being dismissive of it because I understand it's frustrating.
00:37:26
Speaker
If you buy a new car and there's a scrape on it or paint flaking off or something, then yeah, it's going to bug you.
00:37:33
Speaker
But there is some level of, I guess, understanding that this is a boutique product and it doesn't matter even how big Stern has become.
00:37:43
Speaker
It's still a boutique company.
00:37:45
Speaker
They're the biggest boutique company.
00:37:47
Speaker
But you're going to have some issues because you don't have the volume of doing 30,000 Toyota Corollas or something like that.
00:37:56
Speaker
And they also have to figure, okay, what is an appropriate response?
00:38:02
Speaker
If you had a scrape on your car, they're not going to send you a new car.
00:38:05
Speaker
I'm sorry.
00:38:07
Speaker
They're going to try to remedy the situation.
00:38:09
Speaker
And so if there's, if there's things, and I'm not, again, I'm not being dismissive of people who felt that, oh, this stinks on my machine.
00:38:18
Speaker
I get it.
00:38:19
Speaker
I'm that way too.
00:38:20
Speaker
I'm pretty focused on making sure everything's fine.
00:38:25
Speaker
at some point you have to just accept that you're not going to get a perfect game i agree moving on i think that's as much as we want to cover until we get uh chris from hep on or hep um i think he's going to give us a lot more insight and we're planning that as our next episode is to have him on did you want to talk about stern's new hats
00:38:46
Speaker
Yes, I do.
00:38:47
Speaker
I think this is hilarious.
00:38:49
Speaker
So Stern put out that they've ran a new batch of hats and they happen to be the exact same hat and model of our hats, the new era 3930.
00:39:02
Speaker
And they look fantastic.
00:39:04
Speaker
They're different colors.
00:39:04
Speaker
Yeah, they look great.
00:39:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:06
Speaker
They look great.
00:39:07
Speaker
And they're, they're a solid hat.
00:39:09
Speaker
They're 30 bucks and people are complaining on social media that they're too expensive.
00:39:13
Speaker
Like you're already taking tons of our money.
00:39:15
Speaker
Why are these so expensive?
00:39:16
Speaker
Okay.
00:39:17
Speaker
First off, we wanted good quality hats for people to wear.
00:39:21
Speaker
We want our philosophy is if it's good quality and you enjoy wearing it, you're going to wear it more.
00:39:26
Speaker
And so we went with the higher end, this new era 3930, because it's a nice hat.
00:39:29
Speaker
It really is.
00:39:33
Speaker
And we're selling ours at 25 bucks.
00:39:35
Speaker
Stern's selling theirs at 30.
00:39:37
Speaker
We're not making hardly any money off these things because they're a really nice hat.
00:39:42
Speaker
And so it kind of baffles me when people are like, why are you charging so much for a hat?
00:39:48
Speaker
And if you've looked at the Stern one, they've actually done some more to their hats than what we've done.
00:39:53
Speaker
We've had ours embroidered and stuff.
00:39:55
Speaker
And Stern's had theirs embroidered, but they've also had like a Stern tag put on the back that actually like clips around the hat and stuff like that.
00:40:01
Speaker
I guarantee they've put more money into their hats than we've put into ours.
00:40:06
Speaker
They're not making any money on this.
00:40:09
Speaker
This is them trying to market and say, we're not going to sell crappy hats.
00:40:16
Speaker
We're going to sell hats that people want to wear.
00:40:19
Speaker
And...
00:40:20
Speaker
We're trying to get our name out there.
00:40:23
Speaker
That's what Stern's talking about, right?
00:40:24
Speaker
It's a lifestyle brand.
00:40:25
Speaker
They're trying to get their name on the street.
00:40:28
Speaker
But you can't do that with cheap hats that fall apart or cheap t-shirts that no one wears.
00:40:35
Speaker
So I understand what their price point is.
00:40:38
Speaker
Their price point is they're probably barely breaking even or maybe making two bucks on it.
00:40:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:40:44
Speaker
So give them a break guys.
00:40:47
Speaker
That's all I can say.
00:40:48
Speaker
I will say it's an, it's a nice hat and I'm going to order some because I like wearing my loser kid hat because it's comfortable and I don't wear hats that aren't comfortable.
00:40:59
Speaker
And so if they bought the same thing we did, I I'm all in.
00:41:03
Speaker
Well, I just think it's funny that they did buy it.
00:41:05
Speaker
We've had our hats for how many months now?
00:41:07
Speaker
We've had them probably out about two or three.
00:41:09
Speaker
Yeah, well, okay.
00:41:10
Speaker
Yeah, I guess that's probably right.
00:41:12
Speaker
But you know what?
00:41:13
Speaker
Hey, it's smart.
00:41:15
Speaker
And actually, the other Stern hat that I have is really comfortable too.
00:41:18
Speaker
So you know what?
00:41:20
Speaker
Here's the thing.
00:41:22
Speaker
I would rather pay $5 more for a nice hat than to get a crappy one.
00:41:27
Speaker
So hey, if you want to...
00:41:31
Speaker
Well, I'll put it this way.
00:41:33
Speaker
It amazes me that people will talk about how expensive a hat is, but then they'll buy some matchbox car with LED lights on it for $70 on mod sites to put in their game.
00:41:49
Speaker
That contributes very little.
00:41:52
Speaker
It's just, hey, I just wanted this car with lights in it.
00:41:54
Speaker
So just, hey, if you don't like the price, don't buy it.
00:42:00
Speaker
Well, and the rumor is that I'm making up right now as we talk is that Keith is always wearing our loser kid hat.
00:42:08
Speaker
Oh yeah.
00:42:08
Speaker
Let's not.
00:42:09
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:12
Speaker
I'm sure that's it.
00:42:13
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:14
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:15
Speaker
No, I, I, so the guys at Stern were like, Hey, we need to make, this is such a quality hat that we need to, we should make this same product.
00:42:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:22
Speaker
I'm sure.
00:42:22
Speaker
I'm sure that's it.
00:42:23
Speaker
Actually, I will say the, the, the Stern hat that they made before our hats, I think is extremely comfortable too.
00:42:30
Speaker
I totally agree.
00:42:31
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:32
Speaker
Anyway, just give them, give them a break.
00:42:33
Speaker
It's if you want the hat, great.
00:42:35
Speaker
If you don't, but I'm not going to give them a, you know, how many times have you gone to a concert and bought a $40 concert t-shirts that the concert t-shirts are eight bucks.
00:42:44
Speaker
I mean, they're really, they're, they're crappy quality and they fall apart when you wash them.
00:42:49
Speaker
This hat's not going to fall apart.
00:42:50
Speaker
So go ahead and wear it with pride.
00:42:51
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:52
Speaker
Yep.
00:42:53
Speaker
So just a reminder, we do have hats.
00:42:56
Speaker
I just, I printed off another fresh batch.
00:42:58
Speaker
So, um, we've, we've, they've been going out like hotcakes, man.
00:43:03
Speaker
And the other funny part too is, is, uh, Keith was just on head to head and he was talking with Keith.
00:43:08
Speaker
It was two episodes ago and he brought up the incident, uh, with Katie Martin up in Brooklyn.
00:43:14
Speaker
We had sent her out a hat and the, the, the,
00:43:20
Speaker
It sucks because she got there.
00:43:22
Speaker
She's excited for a product, right?
00:43:23
Speaker
She grabs the box.
00:43:25
Speaker
It's already open and the hat was stolen.
00:43:28
Speaker
And they left the loser kid box on the front porch.
00:43:31
Speaker
And it's like.
00:43:33
Speaker
I'm not going to lie guys.
00:43:34
Speaker
We've only sent one hat to Brooklyn.
00:43:36
Speaker
We've sent two now.
00:43:37
Speaker
Cause we sent, we felt bad.
00:43:38
Speaker
We were just like, you know what?
00:43:39
Speaker
We'll send you another one.
00:43:40
Speaker
And so we sent another one to Katie.
00:43:42
Speaker
But if you see someone floating around New York, Brooklyn area, that isn't Katie, you know, it's, it's supposed to be her hat.
00:43:51
Speaker
So you should at least get a picture of them and say, Hey, it's a small, so it'd be a small kid.
00:43:56
Speaker
By the way, I think it's Kate.
00:43:58
Speaker
Um, and she is the leader of the bells and chimes in the New York area.
00:44:03
Speaker
So give her a shout out when you see her.
00:44:06
Speaker
Speaking of head to head, let's talk about our slam in the top 100 that we did when we had Martin on.
Poll Results: 'Twilight Zone' vs 'Time Machine'
00:44:11
Speaker
Okay.
00:44:11
Speaker
Did you keep up with the poll?
00:44:13
Speaker
You know, I didn't.
00:44:14
Speaker
I got so busy.
00:44:15
Speaker
I just, I disappeared from social media for about a couple of weeks.
00:44:19
Speaker
Sure.
00:44:20
Speaker
Sure.
00:44:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:44:22
Speaker
Well, to remind the people at home, we did Twilight Zone versus Time Machine of all games.
00:44:30
Speaker
And you take a guess, Scott.
00:44:32
Speaker
Okay, how many votes do you think we got on this bad boy?
00:44:35
Speaker
10.
00:44:37
Speaker
Close.
00:44:37
Speaker
We got 12.
00:44:38
Speaker
So I was impressed there.
00:44:41
Speaker
Was one of them mine?
00:44:43
Speaker
I guess technically 10 because one was mine and one was yours.
00:44:46
Speaker
There you go.
00:44:47
Speaker
Because you can't follow the votes or anything unless if you vote.
00:44:50
Speaker
And so I'm like, well, I wanted to keep it pure, but we couldn't without tracking it.
00:44:55
Speaker
And you voted for Time Machine.
00:44:58
Speaker
No, I did not.
00:44:59
Speaker
I voted for Twilight Zone.
00:45:00
Speaker
Dude, I'm voting Twilight Zone no matter what.
00:45:02
Speaker
So Twilight Zone won 58% to 42%.
00:45:04
Speaker
I'd say that's a solid close vote.
00:45:13
Speaker
It really is.
00:45:14
Speaker
And I did put as part of our segment, you got to vote who had the better argument.
00:45:20
Speaker
And I even gave you the cat driving a Ferrari because of the car.
00:45:26
Speaker
And it probably was the cat gif that really helped you out.
00:45:28
Speaker
I think so.
00:45:29
Speaker
I will take a cat driving a Ferrari anytime.
00:45:33
Speaker
But no one commented.
00:45:34
Speaker
I don't think.
00:45:35
Speaker
I think.
00:45:36
Speaker
I don't know.
00:45:37
Speaker
It just.
00:45:38
Speaker
It made me chuckle.
00:45:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:45:40
Speaker
It was awesome.
00:45:41
Speaker
I will say Time Machine is an interesting game.
00:45:43
Speaker
But yeah.
00:45:43
Speaker
You're not going to compete with Twilight Zone.
00:45:45
Speaker
So.
00:45:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:45:47
Speaker
Twilight Zone is a beast all within itself.
00:45:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:45:50
Speaker
So.
00:45:51
Speaker
And then speaking also of that episode that we had Martin on.
00:45:54
Speaker
We got some feedback.
00:45:56
Speaker
We got an email.
00:46:00
Speaker
I'm sorry if I slaughter your name.
00:46:02
Speaker
Robbie R a B I H. Any who.
00:46:08
Speaker
So we were talking about making pinball more accessible for the general public.
00:46:13
Speaker
We were kind of saying that pinball is kind of hard on a three ball.
00:46:16
Speaker
If you don't fully understand the game, you lose three balls in like 30 seconds and you're like, well, why the crap am I even playing this?
00:46:23
Speaker
And so we talked about, you know, different like time modes and stuff like that.
00:46:27
Speaker
Well, this gentleman reached out to us and he said, Hey guys, thanks for putting out these episodes.
00:46:32
Speaker
And I'm enjoying the interviews.
00:46:33
Speaker
Really love them.
00:46:34
Speaker
I heard you on the last episode with Martin discussing the DMB foray into pinball with P3.
00:46:41
Speaker
So the DMB is Dave and Busters because they just put the P3 out in the Austin, Texas location.
00:46:47
Speaker
So I wanted you to let you know here in Chicago, there are experimenting with pinball on location at similar venues.
00:46:54
Speaker
where they modify the games to make them five ball, newer replays, and five minute time plays.
00:47:00
Speaker
Personally, I'm opposed to both modifications as it takes away from the authenticity of the pinball experience where it's a do or die situation and it's up to your skills if you can continue to progress.
00:47:12
Speaker
But I understand this is an option for novice slash beginners, especially when juxtaposed with arcades and thrill rides that all run on time plays essentially.
00:47:22
Speaker
The suggestion would be include a choice in the very beginning.
00:47:24
Speaker
As you, as you guys mentioned is very clear.
00:47:27
Speaker
The player hit left flipper button, easy mode, timed or right flipper button, hard mode, three balls.
00:47:32
Speaker
Either way, it's tough to find the sweet spot for a venue.
00:47:35
Speaker
I know operators are keenly aware of the pros and cons.
00:47:38
Speaker
My dream venue would be a laid back coffee shop with a pinball room adjacent.
00:47:42
Speaker
That's open all day from all ages.
00:47:44
Speaker
Maybe turn turns into a bars after 9 PM.
00:47:48
Speaker
Sincerely, Robby Robby.
00:47:51
Speaker
Uh,
00:47:52
Speaker
He even pronounced it there at the end.
00:47:55
Speaker
I didn't realize that.
00:47:56
Speaker
But it sounds like there are experiments with this stuff.
00:47:59
Speaker
At least up in Chicago.
00:48:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:03
Speaker
I will say that when I first started getting into pinball, I heard there was a Wizard of Oz on.
00:48:07
Speaker
And it did have that option where, hey, you can play for just a – you can play for a time.
00:48:16
Speaker
And I thought that was really interesting since I didn't know anything about Wizard of Oz.
00:48:19
Speaker
I thought that would be an interesting option.
00:48:22
Speaker
So certainly if you're going to put some money in a machine and you're guaranteed five minutes, then yeah, I think that that's something to consider.
00:48:32
Speaker
I think there certainly needs to be a way of rewarding the players as soon as you get better with, I don't know, higher scores, bells and whistles.
00:48:42
Speaker
I'm not really sure.
00:48:44
Speaker
But yeah, you have to look at ways that the market is changing.
00:48:50
Speaker
The market has changed.
00:48:52
Speaker
Arcades are gone.
00:48:53
Speaker
They're kiddie gambling ticker redemptionaries now.
00:48:56
Speaker
So whatever you can do to try to wrestle that away from the ticket munchers, I think you have to look at it.
00:49:05
Speaker
I agree.
00:49:07
Speaker
It kind of sounds like they're describing Keto's really, except for the all ages access, but it's basically like a hipster coffee shop.
00:49:18
Speaker
slash bar that has board games and everything.
00:49:21
Speaker
The only downside is you can't hurt the games because they haven't turned down nothing.
00:49:27
Speaker
Come out to Utah.
00:49:29
Speaker
We'll show you Ketos.
Video Game Themes in Pinball
00:49:32
Speaker
It really is really laid back.
00:49:33
Speaker
I'm not a huge bar fan.
00:49:36
Speaker
I'm really not.
00:49:37
Speaker
But Ketos, you don't feel like you're walking into a bar.
00:49:41
Speaker
You walk in there, you play some pinball.
00:49:43
Speaker
It feels like a Starbucks that serves alcohol too.
00:49:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:49:48
Speaker
So, but no, I agree.
00:49:50
Speaker
I think, I think that there does need to be some more accessibility and there's one more, there's one more topic I wanted to hit.
00:49:56
Speaker
I forgot I was going to, I forgot to tell you this before in our show notes, we talked about this a couple episodes back, but it was video game themes inside of pinball.
00:50:05
Speaker
And if we should start exploring those again, I got looking at,
00:50:10
Speaker
Cause I went to Nickel Mania in Springville and they've got a Gottlieb Super Mario Brothers, the little kiddie one that's a redemption machine.
00:50:21
Speaker
It's horrible.
00:50:23
Speaker
Actually, it wasn't too bad.
00:50:24
Speaker
It's very, very repetitive.
00:50:26
Speaker
It's hit the magic flute up the middle and then hit the left ramp and it starts a video mode, which kind of makes sense because it's Super Mario Brothers.
00:50:32
Speaker
And then it has a bunch of different video modes, but you're trying to get through the worlds.
00:50:37
Speaker
I didn't think it was too bad, but it got me thinking because everyone complains like Gottlieb is not that great.
00:50:44
Speaker
They have some good games, but I went and looked.
00:50:48
Speaker
There's only one game above Super Mario Brothers, both Super Mario Brothers, that is worth more than the Super Mario Brothers games.
00:50:56
Speaker
It's the Chicago Cubs baseball game.
00:50:59
Speaker
And it made the same amount or less in machines.
00:51:04
Speaker
And so I'm like...
00:51:06
Speaker
That's 20 years later, or 30 years later, that it's still running strong on these Super Mario Bros.
00:51:12
Speaker
games.
00:51:13
Speaker
They're still the only ones that's coveted in the game.
00:51:15
Speaker
Yeah, it's... I think that...
00:51:19
Speaker
The best example of how to do a video game feel with a game would be Jurassic Park.
00:51:27
Speaker
Because the way they've done Jurassic Park, it feels very much like you are immersed in the Jurassic world, but you're not following along with the...
00:51:38
Speaker
You're not having to retread the storyline.
00:51:43
Speaker
The challenge is being able to integrate a similar theme with Metroid or a new Super Mario or what have you.
00:51:53
Speaker
I would love to have any Nintendo-based product theme as a pinball machine, as long as you can integrate it well.
00:52:04
Speaker
I think it would be a blast.
00:52:06
Speaker
The challenge is it always feels a little derivative.
00:52:09
Speaker
When you're playing it, it's the, okay, well, this isn't really Super Mario Bros.
00:52:14
Speaker
It just feels like...
00:52:17
Speaker
You're playing with different decals on it.
00:52:20
Speaker
So I haven't felt one where it gives you the same sort of excitement that playing the video game does.
00:52:30
Speaker
It's a little different when you have a movie or a music pin that actually does a similar thing and it gives you that buzz.
00:52:38
Speaker
But the video game, I've never found one that feels successfully crossed over into pinball.
00:52:45
Speaker
But I would be really curious to see if Nintendo started licensing more properties out for pinball machines because I think it would be a big seller.
00:52:57
Speaker
Well, and honestly, even looking at how pinball machines are being built nowadays, like you said, Jurassic Park, it's almost got that video game feel because of the gameplay.
00:53:07
Speaker
Black Knight, I got the same thing because you're trying to get to the bosses and then you're trying to defeat...
00:53:13
Speaker
the creatures or whatever it may be so you can get to the black knight i think we're starting to shift more and more and more towards almost a video game feel for a pinball machine as far as rule sets and codes go because that's where you get a lot of depth yeah and so and you also get a lot of non-linear gameplay that way too so yeah i don't know it's gonna be interesting to see where the hobby goes
00:53:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:53:37
Speaker
But hey, I'm all for if Nintendo's willing to start licensing it again, I think Stern would do a great job with it.
00:53:45
Speaker
I really do.
00:53:47
Speaker
I agree.
00:53:48
Speaker
And JJP would be great too, and maybe that would be more up their alley because they tend to be more of that wonka, that family-friendly type thing.
00:53:59
Speaker
But I think either of them would be my number one and two, and you could pick either one of them.
00:54:04
Speaker
I think they'd both do a bang-up job.
00:54:07
Speaker
If you're listening to this podcast right now, if you've made it this far, will you do me a favor?
00:54:12
Speaker
Will you guys reach out to Scott and tell him happy birthday?
00:54:15
Speaker
He had his birthday on Thursday and the guy did not party hardy like he should have.
00:54:21
Speaker
So.
00:54:23
Speaker
No, but I did go to Topgolf.
00:54:24
Speaker
That was fun.
00:54:25
Speaker
That is fun.
00:54:26
Speaker
My wife stayed home.
00:54:27
Speaker
My wife stayed home with a sick kid.
00:54:28
Speaker
So I took my, I took one of one of my partners from work.
00:54:33
Speaker
So anyway, it's good times.
00:54:36
Speaker
Dude, Topgolf is so good.
00:54:38
Speaker
I don't know if you people out there in the pinball podcasting world that listen to us have ever done or even know what Topgolf is.
00:54:46
Speaker
It's essentially a driving range, but the balls that you hit are microchipped, and then there's targets in the ground, and you score points off those.
00:54:55
Speaker
But they bring you food.
00:54:56
Speaker
You can order food while you're playing.
00:54:58
Speaker
It's fantastic.
00:55:00
Speaker
Yeah, thinking of that, I don't know why they can't just microchip all balls.
00:55:05
Speaker
And so you don't have to go looking for your ball for all the crappy golfers out there.
00:55:09
Speaker
Just go on to any golf course and you just have a range finder that just beeps when you get close to your ball.
00:55:16
Speaker
I agree.
00:55:16
Speaker
Well, and the golf carts already have GPS and they show the screen of how far you are from the pin.
00:55:22
Speaker
It can't be that much harder just to do some microchip balls.
00:55:24
Speaker
And I guess that's the difference between us beginners and the professionals, because the professionals are going to be wanting to hit the Callaway or whatever it may be.
00:55:34
Speaker
They want that very specific ball.
00:55:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:55:37
Speaker
No, it's, well, I'm going to be on the timed ball equivalent of golf for probably my entire life because I will never be competing on that.
00:55:48
Speaker
I was listening to a comedian and he said, you know, we're on the first hole.
00:55:54
Speaker
And I hit the ball and I look around at the other guys because I don't play golf.
00:55:57
Speaker
And I said, is that a good place to be?
00:55:59
Speaker
And one of the guys says, well, that's a good place if you need to take a crap.
00:56:02
Speaker
And he said, well, it's good because I did and I didn't play the next 17 holes with socks on.
00:56:08
Speaker
Like, yeah, I can relate.
00:56:09
Speaker
Yeah.
00:56:11
Speaker
We'll wrap it up and, uh, sounds like we'll, uh, we'll try to get, uh, we, if you guys have, uh, ideas for interviews too, we, we tried to mix it up a little bit to have interviews and, uh, discussions, but if there are people that you would, uh, be interested in us reaching out to, uh, let us know.
00:56:26
Speaker
We'll see if we can get them on the show or if there's any topics that you'd prefer that we discuss, go ahead and let us know.
00:56:31
Speaker
And, uh, we'll try to get our takes on it.
00:56:34
Speaker
Well, and really quickly, what shocked me was, is, um,
00:56:38
Speaker
With the Josh Sharp interview that we just did.
00:56:41
Speaker
I was actually talking to Zach and we were just talking about different stuff.
00:56:45
Speaker
And Zach's like, you know who would really like to be on your show?
00:56:48
Speaker
And I'm like, who?
00:56:49
Speaker
And he's like, my brother, Josh.
00:56:51
Speaker
I was like, what, really?
00:56:52
Speaker
And he's like, yeah, Josh listens to you.
00:56:53
Speaker
So when he loves it, dude, I was like, really?
00:56:56
Speaker
And so I was kind of shocked.
00:56:57
Speaker
Like, I'm like, you're pulling my chain.
00:56:59
Speaker
Like, okay.
00:57:00
Speaker
Josh, Josh is, Josh is infectious.
00:57:04
Speaker
His, his charisma for pinball is really contagious.
00:57:09
Speaker
And I, he probably listens to podcasts nonstop.
00:57:13
Speaker
He, yeah, he, he,
00:57:17
Speaker
When you talk to him, you're like, yeah, why isn't pinball everywhere?
00:57:20
Speaker
Just because you can feel his excitement for it.
00:57:21
Speaker
So certainly the right guy to do the IFPA.
00:57:25
Speaker
And so it was a lot of fun to have him on and certainly we'll have him on anytime.
00:57:31
Speaker
Yep.
00:57:33
Speaker
Well, that's the thing too.
00:57:34
Speaker
I was like, dude, I wish we could have had hours.
00:57:37
Speaker
He was at work and he was messaging us.
00:57:39
Speaker
He's like, by the way, if I just randomly stop talking, it might be because the boss came in and I had to switch the screen.
00:57:46
Speaker
Click, click, click.
00:57:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:57:49
Speaker
I wish you guys could be with us behind the scenes sometimes because there's some great stuff.
00:57:52
Speaker
There's some stuff that we can't share and then there's stuff that's just like that.
00:57:57
Speaker
It makes you chuckle.
00:57:59
Speaker
If Josh's boss is listening, he was not being interviewed by us right there.
00:58:03
Speaker
He was at home and taking care of three kids while he was podcasting with us.
00:58:07
Speaker
That's exactly what happened.
00:58:09
Speaker
He would never do it on work time.
00:58:10
Speaker
No.
00:58:13
Speaker
But...
00:58:14
Speaker
Yeah.
00:58:15
Speaker
We're going to get a text.
00:58:16
Speaker
I can feel it already.
00:58:19
Speaker
But well, cool.
00:58:21
Speaker
Awesome.
00:58:21
Speaker
Always talk to you, Scott.
00:58:23
Speaker
All right.
00:58:23
Speaker
Well, we'll catch you guys later.
00:58:25
Speaker
Later.