Transcript
Pablo Tomasi: So welcome back to the Telco Drift, a podcast exploring tech telecoms and other sci-fi story. And today I'm joined by Frank De Jong, Program Director, QuantumSafe Network at Orange Business.
Pablo Tomasi: So Frank, welcome to the Telco Drift.
Frank: Thank you very much and good to be here.
Pablo Tomasi: So, ah first of all, as always, before we dive deep into the quantum world, and it's great to have an expert because I tried to talk a little bit about quantum before. Honestly, like i I don't get much of what is happening there. But before we get there, can you just share a little bit about yourself, ah some interesting facts and also you are a fellow podcaster. So it would be great also to get a little bit of more information about what you're doing in that sense.
Frank: Okay, indeed. Now, first of all, you mentioned I work for Orange Business and I'm part of a team called Emerging Technology and Incubation, which basically means that whenever there's a new technology coming to us, well, somebody appoints a new technology to me and say, so this is now your technology to look at. And a few years ago, ah quantum was the thing.
Frank: And I had the same issue that you have today. And that means, you What is it all about? And so that's one thing. Now to to the other things, you know, a bit about myself. I live in the Netherlands, so I'm working in the Dutch office of all this business.
Frank: um I have a a lot of hobbies and one of them is at some point in time, I decided that it would be a nice idea to make a podcast. And since my employer is sponsoring it is called Orange Business Radio but in principle we always try to avoid to make this a commercial break for for the employer so we always and i think you were in one of the episodes yes you were in one of my episodes right
Pablo Tomasi: Yes, yes, I was in one of the episodes.
Frank: And so I always try to debunk some myths here and there and let's say talk about and unexpected consequences or unintended consequences. So, ah yeah, that's where I get my fun. And I don't know how often your podcast comes out, but my podcast is but very irregular.
Frank: When we have a very nice episode, we just put this one.
Pablo Tomasi: What I like about the the your podcast is is the fact that both you and also your co-host, Kerem, co-hosting you with get a few episodes, you you have almost a philosophical take on whatever aspect of technology you're looking at, what is like AI or you know you had a couple of episodes on quantum as well.
Pablo Tomasi: And and I find that as i that that sort of really
Frank: Mm-hmm.
Pablo Tomasi: is is that message is delivered to the audience, right? That is not sort of safe speech, but it's rather like guys really trying to understand pros and cons of a technology. So definitely recommend, and it's going be, you know, going to have the the link to the to the podcast in the description of the episode.
Frank: And every now and then, especially when I do this with Kerem, so I have a few other co-hosts here and there as well. But when whenever I do this with Kerem, we always need to fight the urge to become Stadler and Waldo, you know, the the two old guys on the balcony in the Muppet Show.
Frank: Because when there is a new hype, we always start saying, boo, boo, and maybe we need to fight that urge a
Pablo Tomasi: You could be an analyst, definitely.
Frank: bit. Let's not go there.
Pablo Tomasi: Yeah, not sure if you take that as a compliment or not, but like definitely that that's something that I can i can see. But but let let's let's start getting a little bit more into that uncertain territories of the of the quantum world. And maybe let's get sort of from from the beginning. so like I don't think a lot of people that are listening to my podcast really know a lot about quantum computing and the quantum world. So from from your point of view as an expert, what are so to what does the audience need to know about this technology?
Frank: Yeah, a lot of things, right? But I think one of the most dangerous things when you talk about technology like quantum is that, and and I see that a lot when we speak to our customers, for example, is that we we overwhelm them or overwhelm them with technology.
Frank: And because it's an It's interesting because, you know, I also wrote down that quote. There was a talk about science science fiction, right? And there was a
Pablo Tomasi: Yeah.
Frank: an author called Archer say C. Clarke. And he at some point said that any sufficient advanced technologies is is indistinguishable from magic. Now, specifically for quantum, that is, well, I think it's true, simply because the the i idea behind quantum technology is you know quantum mechanics.
Frank: And quantum mechanics is so counterintuitive that actually, like 100 years ago when this quantum mechanics was more or less like invented or developed, and the scientists were well they were really fighting.
Frank: They didn't believe it because it was throwing over the existing beliefs and laws of physics.
Pablo Tomasi: Mm-hmm.
Frank: um So it makes it very difficult for people to understand. And there's also a whole bunch of myths around it right now. And actually, I believe, as with, and then here we go again with the Stadler and Waldorf thing, as with all the new technologies, at some point in time, they become a hype.
Frank: And actually last week I did a presentation for an audience saying that quantum is a hype. Now, in principle, that is partially true, I think, but it's something that we really need to need to monitor.
Frank: And then specific thing, when you talk about quantum, um Me, I'm specifically working on what we call quantum safe networks. And so that's only small part of the whole scope.
Pablo Tomasi: Mm-hmm.
Frank: And there's a lot of other people working on things like quantum computers, quantum sensors, and all this type of stuff. Now, that is not the area that I'm active in, but that's interesting because when I talk to our customers being a telco, being a network provider, the first question I get is, where can I buy a quantum computer?
Frank: So i think there's still a lot of education needed to be done.
Pablo Tomasi: what What's interesting, I think I i read that you you can or I or i listen somewhere ah or or maybe I just asked chat GBT honestly, you know, one of the different options get information.
Frank: Yeah.
Pablo Tomasi: did The big companies, they they are providing sort of as a service, some quantum computing as a service. is is Is that a thing that that is happening and that could become the norm?
Frank: Well, you know, as with as with all the technology that is difficult, expensive, new, in the beginning, it's always easier to to rent or or or cheaper to rent.
Frank: And I think that's what you see happening right now. You know, quantum computers are not only expensive, but they're also difficult to operate. It's not another thing that you easily put in your basement and say, I operate this quantum computer.
Frank: So right now, I think the best way to do it is actually to to work with the quantum computer that you rent from from somebody or you have to build a whole team around you. And you see things are moving a bit, right? Because we had these, well, there's a whole bunch of tech companies that make quantum computers.
Pablo Tomasi: Mm-hmm.
Frank: Now we can still debate the quality of those quantum computers or how much performance they will have. um But there's now also, you see there's a bunch of companies, hosting providers, for example, that buy a quantum computer and operate that in their data centers.
Frank: But then there's the other thing where you need to be very careful because there's whole bunch of quantum computing services that you could rent off hyperscalers or any other provider that are actually just simulators. They are not quantum computers at all.
Frank: So and i think this is where a lot of confusion already comes in.
Pablo Tomasi: ah So can you just elaborate on that? So effectively you you you can run something that you think it's quantum computer, but it's actually a program simulating what a quantum computer would do.
Frank: Yeah.
Pablo Tomasi: Did did I get that correct?
Frank: Well, you did get that correct. So the point here is that in order to make meaningful applications for quantum computers, they need to have a certain size.
Frank: They need to have a certain amount of what they call stable qubits Now, we didn't discuss the idea of qubits and bits just yet, but it's relatively difficult to make computers that have stable qubits, that remain stable for a longer period of time.
Frank: So that is where the likes of, I don't know, Google and IBM, for example, are working on, and and among them, a lot of a lot of others as well.
Pablo Tomasi: Mm-hmm.
Frank: and So that technology is very much in development, but in the meantime, we need to get to a point where do we have people that can program a quantum computer and the way to program a quantum computer is much different than a normal classical computer so you need to be able to start working on it and to to well teach yourself how to do this so you need to be able to write quantum algorithms now that's something you do in simulator before you put it on a real computer and then once you have done it in the simulator you think okay this could potentially work
Frank: then you need to get to the point of how do you prepare your data in such a way that you can give it to a quantum computer and it will give you an answer. By the way, the way this usually works in a quantum computer, I think that's that's funny as well, is we are very used to ask the computer a question and it will give you an answer.
Frank: All right, so it's a very simple question, one plus one. We know the answer is two. Any computer will tell you the answer is two. The way a quantum computer works is it doesn't tell you what the answer is. It tells you which answer out of a broad range of answers will have the highest probability of being the right answer.
Pablo Tomasi: OK, that's.
Frank: So there you go already, right?
Pablo Tomasi: Yeah, i'm I'm already having a mental meltdown. it's It's definitely not. so I mean, and and I imagine your job must be like extremely difficult because you need to get those very complex you know technologies and and concepts. and and And I imagine that some of the people that you're talking to in the you know from your customers or potential partners may not necessarily be experts on this.
Frank: Yeah.
Pablo Tomasi: So dev there's a bit of translating complex stuff.
Frank: Yes.
Pablo Tomasi: But the other the other thing, so you you mentioned Qubit and as sort of that data versus bit, can can can you again explain for the for the average listener what's the main difference?
Pablo Tomasi: um And also, yeah, know just yeah let let's start with that one one step at a time.
Frank: Yes. Yeah, I can. Yes. OK.
Frank: so qubits versus, well, classical bits, right?
Pablo Tomasi: Mm-hmm.
Frank: So, and I don't know about, probably most of your audience is relatively technical already. So a bit we know is a zero or a one. We use that as the basic, well, minimum information element in a computer.
Frank: Now, quantum computer has that as well, or quantum quantum technology uses a basic element as well, which is called the qubit, it's a quantum bit. Now, in principle, they, and and some people may say they're a zero and a one at the same time, which is a bit of an oversimplification.
Frank: The idea is there is a probability of this qubit representing a zero or a one, and you do not know what it is until you measure it. So until you monitor it.
Frank: um The official story around this is about the shredding his cat, you know, my shirt is also about, so it's about the cat you put in the box, right? And then they say the cat may be dead or a alive until, and you will only know until you watch.
Pablo Tomasi: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Frank: But I'd rather explain it as, you know, flipping a coin. So if you flip a coin, it rotates in the air and it's head, tail, head, tail, head, tail. Well, basically you don't know what it is until you catch it and look at it.
Frank: um And so, and with qubit, it basically chooses at that moment in time, whether it's a zero or a one. So whether it's a head or a tail, when we look at coin.
Frank: Now that's strange, strange behavior, because you say, you know, it's either head or tail.
Pablo Tomasi: a
Frank: No, it chooses its state at the moment you monitor it.
Pablo Tomasi: Mm-hmm.
Frank: Now, so if you do not monitor a qubit, and let's assume this qubit remains stable forever, which is, by the way, not the case. But once you measure the qubit, it chooses its state.
Frank: um So that makes it relatively difficult. And one of the other, that's, by the way, what they call superposition. So, and when you monitor it, it falls out of superposition, and it chooses whether it's a zero or a one.
Frank: Now, another thing that makes it very interesting in the quantum world is the other property, which they call entanglement. So now we have two coins or two qubits and they are entangled, which basically means they, they keep track of each other state.
Frank: And if I have one qubit on one side and in quantum, we always call the A side Alice and then the B side, we call Bob and Alice looks at her qubit.
Frank: as I said, it will choose its state. But at the exact same moment, somewhere on the other side of the universe, the entangled qubit from Bob will also choose its state and it's going to be the opposite state of the qubit that Alice has.
Frank: So it's completely opposite. And that is what that's what they call entanglement. And that's, by the way, something that way back when Einstein called spooky action at the distance. in In his mind, this couldn't be happening.
Frank: But it is happening.
Pablo Tomasi: Again, and so you you you mentioned as well that sort of they cannot stay in in that that state for a long time, so they are susceptible to noise and in their interference.
Frank: Yes.
Pablo Tomasi: and ah And I know that there are attempts to get sort of quantum error correction and that sort of thing.
Frank: Yes.
Pablo Tomasi: so how
Frank: ah specifically in quantum computing you see that there are two technologies two tracks of development ongoing so the first one is about how can we make qubits that are stable and not sensitive to to noise so that's one track and then there is this other track and that's basically what google is working on a lot is how can we make the error correction so good it
Pablo Tomasi: how yeah
Frank: that we don't really care about the noise or we care less about the noise. um So those two tracks of development are actually, well, building on top of each other and they are accelerating each other.
Frank: So that gets us to computers that become better, quicker, more stable at some point in time. And right now, ah by the way, there's a third element, which is also an interesting element.
Frank: And that is most of the quantum computers today They need superconducting qubits. And in order to get to superconducting, you need to cool them down to a very low temperature.
Pablo Tomasi: Mm-hmm.
Frank: That makes quantum quitter big because the quantum chip itself is not so big, but the fridge around it and the isolation around it makes it very big. So if we could get to a point where, for example, you could use photons or other elements that do not need those low tim then it becomes much easier to to actually but build a quantum computer that's scaling easier, for example.
Frank: We saw that, i think 2025 last year, Microsoft announced that they had this Majorana chip and they were actually claiming that their researchers had developed a ah semiconductor that could do quantum computing and hold qubits um without the need for superconductivity.
Frank: So that felt like a big blow to the to to the whole world of quantum.
Pablo Tomasi: Mm-hmm.
Frank: And in the end, it was proven not to be a correct in interpretation of the research paper. You know, the way this works, researchers write a paper, by the way, they already wrote that in 2018. They write a paper and they say, well, this could mean that this and this and this. And then it goes a few steps and then it gets to the marketing department who then says, you know what?
Frank: We found the solution to the biggest problem in the in in the earth. So we are going to change the world. And didn't happen. Now Microsoft's still working on it ah as far as I understand.
Frank: So maybe at some point they will find it, but they didn't find they didn't find it just yet.
Pablo Tomasi: Hmm. Hmm.
Frank: So those are the things that bring us and well faster, quicker to a new, bigger quantum computer. um But we'll have to see how that how that goes. And we see messages going around, they're flying around every day. Some of them are really bold claims.
Frank: And some of them, we said, okay, let me have a look at that in a bit more detail. and And one of the most important things is about the power of a quantum computer. Because, and that brings it pretty quickly to to what I'm doing right now, because, you know, quantum safe networks um has a lot of potential use cases, but there's one use case bringing the unintended or not so happy consequences.
Frank: One of the things that a quantum computer could be pretty well, at
Frank: day in the internet and unfortunately this has already been proven that the algorithm will work it has already been defined more or less on what kind of quantum computer you would need for that whereas for other use cases which like you know drug discovery or a new material discovery or all this type of stuff
Pablo Tomasi: Mm-hmm.
Frank: the timelines are a bit bit more unclear, but for the breaking of encryption, we have a relatively good view on what the timelines there will be.
Frank: So apart from all the all the woo-hoo stories, you know, this is going to solve all the problems in the world, it's also going to cause one very big problem. And that is what, you know, my role is I'm working on, well,
Frank: getting our networks and our customer networks in a state that we do not have to worry about that anymore.
Pablo Tomasi: And can I just stop you there for a moment before we we dive so on on your role and that opportunity? So the fact that you're mentioning that quantum computers could break the you know the the security you know in in in you know they were currently using So does it mean that, and I know this is a bit of a side question, like curveball if you want, but does it mean that there are rogue actors that may have quantum computers that are using for nefarious purposes?
Pablo Tomasi: Because we are we're talking about, you know, big tech companies, so I'm assuming that they are not using them for those things.
Frank: Yeah. So, yeah, you know, the problem with this always is so when it's in the research domain, researchers tend to publish all the breakthroughs that they have.
Pablo Tomasi: Mm-hmm.
Frank: because then other people can learn from it and they can build on top of that. And we all accelerate the research we are doing. But I'm a bit concerned that once that you once you get to a point where you're close to getting a an application that you like, people may become a bit more quiet, especially if you are
Pablo Tomasi: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Frank: well, let's call it a bad actor and you have sufficient money available, but you say, I'm now able to build a quantum comp computer that could easily break the encryption of, I don't know, my enemy enemy, they will go quiet, right?
Frank: It's not necessarily going to be Google that will be doing that, I hope.
Pablo Tomasi: Yeah.
Frank: ah But we I think, you know, we all can point in a certain direction of people that may be maybe be doing this. um So once that computer becomes available or once somebody has access to that computer, they can do whatever they want.
Frank: a the The point here is um you don't know when that will be. and but there is some well assumption or what the timeline would be around that but more scary around this is that storage data storage nowadays is cheap so i could be stealing your encrypted data today not much use because i cannot decrypt it but i can hold on for it hold on to it for for i don't know 10 years and then maybe in 10 years i have access to that quantum computer that i would need
Pablo Tomasi: Mm-hmm.
Frank: and I could crack your data now probably most of your personal data is not going to be that interesting so that I i will put an awful lot of money in but I think there's data out there and that we can all think of examples that could be interesting enough to somebody who had a sufficient money to just do this and actually we believe that at this point in time this data is already being stolen so the only thing that you need to need to make sure is that
Pablo Tomasi: Yeah. Oh.
Frank: but at some point in time or that we, well actually you need to hope that um the data that's being stolen today will only be cracked at some point in time where it has no longer value.
Frank: So if the quantum computer will only be available in 35 years from now and your data is only 10 years valid or 10 years important, then there is no problem.
Pablo Tomasi: Mm-hmm.
Frank: But if your data is going to be valid for a longer period of time, than the weight that we have for the quantum computer, and then we already have a problem. So that's where the, i think the tension in the market is right now.
Pablo Tomasi: And it is, you know, kind of scary and kind of fascinating, you know, in a sense.
Frank: did Yeah, both, yeah.
Pablo Tomasi: Definitely scary because, like, you' you're thinking, okay, there is, like, these new potential breakthrough technologies. And you said, you know, it could be used for, you know, the creating new new drugs, understanding that type of things. and And yet one of the first, you know, potentially uses, like, dangerous, you know, again, nefarious.
Pablo Tomasi: It's like, ah it's a bit strange, you know, how technology always ends up in the wrong hands if you want.
Frank: yeah it's well this this is how it goes right and we can have a philosophical discussion about uh about internet ah you know years ago we said internet is going to democratize information and it's going to make everybody's life much better and and and you know there's an interesting discussion about that but let's put that aside um So there's a whole bunch of things that you need to look at. By the way, one of the other things that is interesting, I guess, is because I'm doing this and then that's also the reason why I'm in this podcast, I guess.
Frank: um But I have a whole bunch of customers that call us and say, can you please explain what this is all about?
Pablo Tomasi: Mm-hmm.
Frank: And one of the things that I need to do is translate the technology stuff into tangible stuff for board members, for example.
Pablo Tomasi: Mm-hmm.
Frank: And just a few weeks ago, I was presenting at a bank, at the board of a bank. And actually said, ru they really said to me, you know, we were thinking that this whole quantum story was going to, well, not important for us because it will only happen after my retirement.
Frank: And that made me think a bit.
Pablo Tomasi: Mm-hmm.
Frank: And that is actually what I see a lot. I'm not saying all the customers are are, well, silly. ah But I think there's still a whole bunch of education to be done.
Frank: Now we see there's a lot of, well, marketing, there's a lot of noise and buzz around this right now and not Not only because we started with that from from from Orange to explain, you know, this is what we want to, well this is what we think is important.
Frank: But you see that all kinds of regulators are picking up on this as well. and But it feels a bit like this Y2K problem, you know. So the Y2K problem, well, I think we remember that quite a
Pablo Tomasi: Mm-hmm.
Frank: One thing, there's something happening to my chair.
Pablo Tomasi: okay
Frank: and The Y2K problem, we we remember that, right? um So we were scared of everything. ah And the interesting thing was we did not know what was going to happen, but we knew exactly when it was going to happen.
Frank: And with the quantum threat, as we call it, there's a bit of a different problem because we do not know when it's going to happen, but we know exactly what will happen.
Frank: and And the point is, ah so it's the encryption we use today. It's the certificates that you that you use today.
Pablo Tomasi: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Frank: It's all the stuff that has some form of, as they call it, asymmetric encryption. all the public key infrastructure stuff that people use. Sorry for all the technology. um But the main point here is your secrets will no longer be secret.
Frank: And you can no longer trust people to be who they say they are. So you really need to work on that because actually, specifically for a bank, it's nice to have a a safe.
Frank: But if you just give everybody the key to the safe, then what's the point of the safe? so um So that's the the problem we are focusing on at the moment.
Pablo Tomasi: And ah so effectively what what you want to do with your clients, you want to future proof their nettocks.
Frank: Yes.
Pablo Tomasi: Like a little bit of the of the challenge with cybersecurity that's sort of broadened up a little bit. Cybersecurity in general is that you're asking people to pay for nothing to happen effectively, in a sense.
Pablo Tomasi: So you want to avoid that anything happens.
Frank: Yeah, yeah. Well, yes.
Pablo Tomasi: And it's not always an easy sale, is it?
Frank: Well, actually, in our point of view, it's not even sale, right? and Of course, when you do something new, everybody will ask you, how much money are we going to make on this?
Pablo Tomasi: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Frank: and But I think, and that's a call to action for everyone in in the market, and this very quickly will become a hygiene factor.
Frank: So the idea would be, if if I i always compare that to a car, right? Nobody will buy a new car anymore without any airbags in it. So if you were to buy, rent, whatever, new network, for example, I think one of the questions you should ask is this quantum safe or quantum resistant?
Frank: And that's just the networking part. But you need to do that for every application that you buy, use, rent. um So it's not even an additional value.
Frank: Probably pricing will go up because technology is a bit more difficult. But it's not something that you would sell as an option.
Pablo Tomasi: Mm-hmm.
Frank: it's not That's at least not what we are doing. We're not going to to our customers saying you know, we have this very nice stuff. Can you just pay more?
Pablo Tomasi: and okay
Frank: and And on top of that, right, there's not only the networks for the customers, but for us as a telecom operator, it's important that our networks are quantum resistant as well.
Frank: Now I'm using, by the way, two words, quantum safe, quantum resistant, right? And I think it's important to note as well that when you talk about this quantum safe and quantum resistant part,
Frank: um Quantum safe, in my opinion, and just putting a definition here, in my opinion is you made it in such a way that the quantum computer will never be able to break your encryption again.
Frank: That is virtually impossible, but there is technology.
Pablo Tomasi: I was about to say, that sounds like very, very ambitious, like, you know.
Frank: yeah Well, i said it's at least ambitious, and but there are technologies out there. You use quantum technology, not a quantum computer, but something, for example, called quantum key distribution.
Frank: where you use um the laws of physics to protect your your key exchange. And the idea ah behind that is if you have, i explained the entanglement right.
Frank: So if you use this entanglement with qubits in superposition, and we use that to send a key from Alice to Bob,
Pablo Tomasi: Mm-hmm.
Frank: And somebody in the middle is looking at my key. So they're looking at, you know, then it falls out of superposition, like I mentioned before. So Bob will see that the qubit that he gets is no longer in superposition. So he said, I'm not going to use that.
Frank: So you're not exchanging keys that somebody has been looking into. So that's protected by the laws of physics. Now, there's a lot of papers out there already that believe that it's possible to do side channel attacks on on quantum key distribution networks.
Frank: But until now, nobody has been successful in that. um And then there's this other thing that, well, the whole market is jumping on and it's called post-quantum cryptography.
Frank: Now, the important thing here is, even though it says quantum, there's nothing quantum in there.
Pablo Tomasi: okay
Frank: It's just more complex um mathematics. So the, head the, the, the encryption we use today is used on a very simple mathematics, but very difficult to reverse as engineer.
Pablo Tomasi: I think they're very simple is is up for debate depending who you're talking to, you know.
Frank: Yeah. Okay. ah relatively simple going forward but very difficult going backwards I think that was that's the important the most important thing so you know every little processor can do the forward calculation on on this encryption but the backward is is very difficult even if you use the biggest supercomputer that you have to available today
Pablo Tomasi: Yeah.
Frank: cracking an RSA 2048 key will take about 10,000 years so nobody's going to wait for that. um But um if you use quantum quantum computer that is big enough that would be 24 hours or even shorter.
Pablo Tomasi: Whoa. Yeah.
Frank: So you can wait for that right if you want bad enough.
Pablo Tomasi: Mm-hmm.
Frank: um Now this post-quantum cryptography is a different way of mathematics and it is much more difficult for a quantum computer to, or for any computer to break that.
Frank: The problem is those algorithms, they have been developed, they have been tested, but they have not been tested so long as all the other encryption today.
Frank: And what's interesting is that initially, for example, NIST started out with six candidates. It very quickly became four. But out of the four, one of them has already been cracked without a quantum computer, just on a single laptop.
Pablo Tomasi: Mm-hmm.
Pablo Tomasi: okay
Frank: um So the point here is about post-quantum cryptography. I think it's a good solution because it will buy you time before you get to the other technology later on down the line.
Frank: um And so you need to be able to do it. And you need to implement that into your network. And that's what we are doing in our customers' networks and our own networks at the moment.
Frank: and But um I think it's very important for people to realize that that this, again, is buying ourselves time. It's a bit like you know the Y2K problem what had something to do with people putting year 99 in their software, right?
Frank: So now they said, you know what, we'll put a bit of a longer year field in it. Now, if they've done it well, then it's the complete year. If they thought, you know what, we'll just push it to, let's say, 2100, for example, then, okay, we bought ourselves some time, but the problem will come back again.
Pablo Tomasi: Yeah.
Frank: And that's so that's basically what you will see happening there as well.
Pablo Tomasi: So it's it's a little bit like kind of a race against time in a sense.
Frank: Always.
Pablo Tomasi: so and and It's yeah it's very very interesting because it's in fact something impending right on you and you need to buy more time and you need to fix it. At and the same time, you're still developing the technology. so it's like It's developing one side and the other.
Pablo Tomasi: But if if we sort of change a little bit the the conversation. i mean, as as a telco, I imagine some of your peers are also exploring this. I'm i'm just curious, are you guys doing something together, and like sharing information, going the same direction?
Pablo Tomasi: Or is each telco who are notoriously not particularly skilled in working together, doing his own thing?
Frank: Yeah. Now that's an interesting point, right? Telcos in principle, have always been working together.
Frank: of Yeah, i I see you laughing, but it depends a bit where you look at.
Pablo Tomasi: Yeah. True.
Frank: But you know, the simple fact that I'm in the Netherlands and you are not in the Netherlands, it already needs telcos to work together. Otherwise, we could not have this connection.
Frank: So that's one. Same for telephone telephonening networks, right? The Dutch PTT years ago connected their network to all the others and we could just call the whole world.
Frank: So that's the telco thing that that we need to work And I'm seeing this and I saw your smile because we're all compet competitors as well. But and and and if you look like look at companies like Orange Business, for example, we have an ambition of being a global operator or a european operator or whatever we call ourselves.
Pablo Tomasi: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Frank: And in that sense, we compete with each other. Now, specifically talking about quantum networks is that one thing in quantum networks, if you want to transfer qubits from one location to another, there is a distance limitation that you can do at the moment.
Frank: and and And it's not because we use fiber optic cables to do that. And if you want to send single photons, so it's like a tiny piece of light.
Frank: It's only a single photon. You send over a fiber optic cable, it gets attenuated, of course. And after approximately, well, 150 kilometers of commercial grade fiber,
Frank: You can no longer find your photon anymore.
Pablo Tomasi: Mm-hmm.
Frank: But you cannot and amplify it using like the normal amplifiers that you have in fiber optic cables, because then you will break the superposition. So you need to do something else. And so it also means that if you want to do this between, let's say Madrid and Oslo, you will need involvement from all kinds of entities in all the countries that you're passing.
Frank: So in order to be able to do a quantum network or a quantum key distribution network, you will need to work with other telcos. And so we carefully look around what's happening with other telcos, what they are doing,
Frank: and And there are several mechanisms. There's something that, for example, to telcos, they can just call each other and see how can we connect our networks.
Pablo Tomasi: Mm-hmm.
Frank: But of course, there's a whole bunch of other things happening as well within and within the, what do you call the working groups of of the likes of GSMA and so on.
Frank: and But there's also some drive from governments like the European Union, the European Union, for example. So specifically looking at quantum networking, there's this quantum flagship program from the European Union in which there specifically are several working groups working on quantum networks ah spanning Europe.
Frank: And of course you can then sign sign on to that.
Pablo Tomasi: Mm-hmm.
Frank: And you will see that when there is an a network that's spanning, for example, well, Central Europe, you see that Orange is there as, you know, former France Telecom. You see Deutsche Telekom is there.
Frank: And when it spans, for example, the UK, then of course, ah BT will jump on that as well. So I think that's where a lot of the co cooperation sits.
Pablo Tomasi: Okay, that's more promising than I'm you know usually hearing.
Frank: Yeah, and then actually on top of that, because, you know, getting over the fiber is, there's some debate about that, depending on how you how you are who you ask. People will say, and it was funny because we just before this recording, we were talking about Wi-Fi versus fiber ah versus cable, right?
Frank: So um depending on who you talk to in quantum networking, there are people that believe that satellite is the answer. and there are people that believe that fiber is the answer but in principle especially if you want to cross the atlantic for example then definitely send a satellite is the answer but i just recently watched a webinar from a professor tno in the netherlands who said well actually after a certain amount of kilometers
Pablo Tomasi: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Frank: Satellite is going to be the answer to to do all all of this. The problem is we don't have those satellites. They're not launched yet. So technology for transponders to go on the satellite has been developed, is readily available. But now somebody needs to launch a bunch of satellites that have those transponders on it.
Frank: And that market is just not big enough yet.
Pablo Tomasi: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Frank: So the European Commission or the European Union has said they are going to launch something called Eagle One. It's one satellite, but the light with Eagle One, but that's a test satellite that was due to go up, I think it was already said in 2025, then it was promised in January this year.
Frank: And the last thing I heard was it's going to be 2027. But that's a evaluation satellite. And then after that, we will get hopefully something like Eagle Next,
Frank: But that's not going to be before 2030. So it is promising, but it's going slow. So you would hope that there would be, let's call it a Starlink type of company that just said, you know what, I'm done with it. that Just stood up a few of the satellites and we're in business.
Frank: But I have no no information on that yet.
Pablo Tomasi: um I mean, i' I'm going to show a little bit of my ignorance here, but so is is the idea that you're going to send them the qubit information using inter-satellite laser links with the satellites?
Frank: Yeah.
Pablo Tomasi: Is that how?
Frank: Yes. Yeah. So this depends a bit on what you need to do. If you need to do quantum key distribution, then the only thing you do not need to have end to end connection.
Pablo Tomasi: Mm-hmm.
Frank: It's okay if you have a per hop connection. So you send, you have a connection with the satellite. It then stores your information there for short while until it has a connection with the other end point that you need to get to.
Pablo Tomasi: OK.
Frank: And it will then go down there.
Pablo Tomasi: So just just expecting the satellite to to effectively rotate across.
Frank: Now,
Frank: Yes, it yes.
Pablo Tomasi: OK.
Frank: And the interesting thing is with the QKD satellite, for example, you will see that typically about 20 minutes every two hours.
Pablo Tomasi: Mm-hmm.
Frank: The problem here is that that's an interesting because you're sending photons again. So photons again are very small particles of light. So if there's clouds between you and the satellite, your photon will not get there.
Pablo Tomasi: Okay.
Frank: So you need to have clear sky.
Pablo Tomasi: ask
Frank: The other thing is um if it's sunny or if there's a lot of light coming at you, so a lot of light means a lot of photons. How do you find your own photon in all that light?
Frank: Now, of course, there are things like frequency filters, so you need to use a specific color of light, but still you will get blinded by all the other light that you get, especially when it comes from the sun. So there's a lot of work on that.
Pablo Tomasi: into Interesting and and definitely like everything sounds like sci-fi, honestly.
Frank: Yes, yes.
Pablo Tomasi: And and's's it's a bit of a sort of segue from this, but there's been a lot of talk recently about also to data center in space or computing in space. And like for for the little I understand, that I do see kind of the vision, like it eventually you're going to move there, then you're not going to replace everything right.
Pablo Tomasi: But I do see that as a... as an idea for like sort of the next step you want of tech evolution. And it seems that even in the quantum world, that is something that is at least being considered.
Pablo Tomasi: And then we'll see how feasible it is. And at the end of the probably, it's going to boil down to you know the cost of it.
Frank: Yes, well, I think that's always that's always the case.
Pablo Tomasi: Yeah.
Frank: and and And there will be a point on who controls it.
Pablo Tomasi: yeah
Frank: So who gets that first? And I think that's something to be, well, slightly cautious about as well.
Pablo Tomasi: I mean, that would bring us in a very different tangent of sovereignty and politics and so on.
Frank: Indeed. Indeed.
Pablo Tomasi: So probably it's going to go a little bit beyond these this podcast. But clearly there is like...
Frank: Yeah. But there's one other thing. There's one other thing that would be interesting and and and probably nice. You mentioned sci-fi again. um There's something called quantum teleportation.
Pablo Tomasi: Okay, please, please, more...
Frank: And that is that is an interesting topic because, and well, basically it has something to do with teleportation of information. And...
Pablo Tomasi: Mm-hmm.
Frank: and um You know, it's too too technical to explain on on this podcast. And actually, I don't even think I can explain it at this moment. um and But that's good, right? Because there was ah if you if if you search on YouTube for that, there is a, I don't know exactly which professor, but it's a very old black and white movie from a professor explaining to an audience quantum mechanics. And he said, right now, I'm the only one who does not understand quantum mechanics.
Frank: And it's my job to by the end of this lecture, make school make sure that you also do not understand quantum mechanics. And so so it's it's difficult.
Frank: But the interesting thing about teleportation, you know, it it ties into what was it?
Pablo Tomasi: Thank
Frank: I think it was Star Trek, right? The beam me up thing.
Pablo Tomasi: yeah
Frank: think um Now teleportation in quantum world is slightly different because it's not being used to teleport you or be, but it's about teleportation of information and that could be part of the answer to span at least the the world with with quantum information.
Frank: and But it's very interesting to to read about or to, well, whatever your your mode of learning is to watch some youtube's YouTube videos about.
Frank: um know I became very enthusiastic about the whole topic because you know it it triggers my inner nerd.
Pablo Tomasi: Definitely. you know when you When you start talking about quantum teleportation, it rings sort of it that that the sci-fi bad. It's like, okay, well, I'm going to look a little bit about about that. ah but But since we're like almost running out of time, and and we are talking about sci-fi stuff, effectively, which is good good part of your business.
Frank: Mm-hmm.
Pablo Tomasi: um I'm trying to you probably, you have you have you have heard, I'm trying to push her to be this beyond just the pure you know analyst type of conversation into more yeah like generic stuff.
Pablo Tomasi: So do you have any, by any chance, any any recommendation from any readings, any books, any movies, anything that even loosely related with the sort of sci-fi or or technology in general that you think, okay,
Frank: Yes.
Frank: Well, yeah.
Pablo Tomasi: This is something that should be on your radar.
Frank: i'm I'm reading a lot. And i'm for me, it's sometimes it's a bit like an Alice in Wonderland type of thing, because I read a book.
Frank: And then in a book, somebody says, well, actually, as so-and-so said in this and this book, and then I put that on my list as well. So it's become the the list of books is stuff becoming bigger and bigger all the time.
Frank: But one of the good books that I was advised by one of the partners we work with, it's a book called Quantum 2.0 by Paul Davies.
Pablo Tomasi: Yeah.
Frank: Because the whole problem with quantum technology and quantum mechanics is that If you are not good at it, if you did not learn all this stuff good enough when you were in school, it's very difficult to to jump in and to understand what this is all about. Because most of the books, and believe it or not, they start with mathematics on on a level where i think either we did not study it or we've completely forgotten what it was all about.
Frank: um And this quantum 2.0 book actually... The reason why they call it 2.0 is because Quantum 1.0 was the quantum mechanics that started 100 years ago.
Frank: And the point is, author is making is that we're now getting to the point where we're looking at the the use cases and how is it actually going to work.
Frank: And that's why he calls it Quantum 2.0. um And um I think that's a very interesting book for people to to read because it has a certain level of technology, but not so much. And there's no mathematics in it.
Pablo Tomasi: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Frank: So it just explains why things are working. And also, in it's a relatively recent book. So it also describes where we are right now or a year ago.
Frank: ah So that's, I think, the top read for now.
Pablo Tomasi: Okay, perfect. Thank you very much. And yeah, definitely adding that. i Reading list is one of those things that always keeps growing, right? he he's He's never going to catch up with it. It's just adding more and more stuff and then you you can never really, you're never in positive, you know, like things
Frank: Yeah.
Frank: And i have ah I have a bit of an obsessive well disorder for this because once I start a book, I feel that I need to finish it. but In my life, there were only two books that I did not finish.
Pablo Tomasi: I have just a handful of books that I didn't finish and they haunt me.
Frank: So.
Pablo Tomasi: you know they're They're looking at me as like...
Frank: Yeah. yeah
Pablo Tomasi: well
Frank: No, actually, there was one, you know, somewhere during, tufa totally not technology, somewhere during, I don't know, as a Christmas present, I got a book from, this this book, part one, from President Obama, former President Obama.
Frank: It's a very big book. you know, the guy, make a point, please. And then it actually said that it was only part one. And I thought, you know, I cannot even finish part one. Let's not get me part two.
Frank: So so that's that's one of the books that I just put away. It's not haunting me. I just took it out of the library, gone. So, but for the rest, you know, Quantum 2.0, a very good book.
Pablo Tomasi: Yeah, perfect. Frank, thank you very much for you know joining me on the show and for all the information. And for yeah anyone that is listening, thanks again for listening. And if you're interested in Orange Business Radio, link is going to be in the description of the show. And have a great day, everyone.
Pablo Tomasi: Thanks again.
Frank: Thank you. Bye-bye.
