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Episode 355: Flinder Boyd
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Flinder Boyd (@FlinderBoyd) is a freelance journalist whose piece "20 Minutes in Rucker Park" turns ten this year. He's also a filmmaker and a former professional basketball player.
Show notes/newsletter: brendanomeara.com
Social: @CNFPod
Support: Patreon.com/cnfpod
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Transcript
Interview Process as Dating
00:00:00
Speaker
I've done this, this is dating, right? This is like going on a date. I'm trying to not reveal too much of myself, get information from you to see how we get along. That's the whole dating process.
Introduction to CNFpod
00:00:24
Speaker
Hey CNFers, it's CNFpod. You know what that is? It's a creative nonfiction podcast. A show where I speak to badass people about the art and craft of telling true stories. I'm Brendan O'Mara, how's it going?
Discussion on '20 Minutes at Rucker Park'
00:00:36
Speaker
Today's guest is someone I've long admired. Long wanted to talk to. Just last episode, episode 354, Niall Capello. She said that for her, every story has a moment. So with Flinder Boyd,
00:00:51
Speaker
The moment is now, because it's been 10 years since his legendary feature, 20 Minutes at Rucker Park for SB Nation Long Form, came out, and it was edited by the equally legendary Glenn Stout, who Flinder brings up several times in this conversation. 20 Minutes made the cut for Best American Sports Writing in 2014, and let me tell you, it's every bit as good today as it was in 2013 when it published.
Reflecting on a Decade of Rucker Park
00:01:21
Speaker
I was editing a basketball profile for someone who had left a review for the podcast, and that's when it dawned on me that maybe to help this writer kind of crack the code, see what's possible. I shared Flinders piece, and I read it again, and I was like, damn, that's good, and holy shit, it's been 10 years.
00:01:41
Speaker
Flinder is a former professional basketball player played in Europe and played against the likes of Ricky Rubio. And let me hit pause right there. Rubio is something of the butt of jokes here in the States and the NBA. And Flinder recalls, albeit briefly, how superior a talent Rubio was to him. That feeling when you have reached the limits of your talent and your ambition, you know, he saw it firsthand while squaring off against Rubio.
00:02:11
Speaker
When someone like Rubio comes to the states and doesn't quite pan out, many people say, like, ah, he sucks. Well, yeah, what a bum.
00:02:19
Speaker
But you look out onto the field or the court, the pitch, those men and women at that level are from another fucking planet. Then when you get to the best of the best, you're looking at your Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady's, Aaron Donalds, Megan Rapinoe, Sue Bird, Kansas Parker, LeBron James, and they make fellow freaks look like mortals? Damn, like how good are they?
00:02:45
Speaker
I ran into that somewhat on the baseball field, to some extent. Dudes who made contact with the ball, and the ball just warped off the bat, and it sounded like when I would feel the ball at shortstop, and one of the balls would come off the bat, and it sounded like a beehive. It was just like, and then it hits your glove, and you're like, holy shit, what was that?
From Basketball to Writing
00:03:09
Speaker
You know, throw the ball, the sound it makes, the hiss, how heavy that ball is. It's something special. And when you're brushed up against it, you're like, yeah, I'm not that good. Flinder wrote about that Rubio experience and as his playing days dwindled and he built a body of work based on unpaid spec pieces, he had a knack for it. And he reread pieces by the likes of Jeff Charlotte and dissected him. He went to the game tape.
00:03:39
Speaker
and he learned from Glenn. And Flinder's a special talent in this mess. So we talk about what these past 10 years have been like for him since Rucker Park came out. So stay tuned for my parting shot, announcing my book deal and what it's about and why I feel like I'm gonna barf. For now, why don't we just get right into it with the one and the only Flinder Boyd.
The Decline of Long-form Writing
00:04:16
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I'm obviously not doing this kind of writing as much these days. But I'm still doing a little sports writing. I'm getting more into documentaries and really want to move into that field and start producing. I'm actually directing. I mean, that's kind of the next avenue. And so I worked on some podcasts, doing some stuff like that. But man, I really miss. I kind of went back and read some of these old long form articles. I really miss that stuff.
00:04:47
Speaker
Yeah, and was there a point where it just became untenable to try to keep doing that kind of reporting and that's why you got away from it?
00:04:58
Speaker
Yeah, just, I mean, a lot of places just didn't want it anymore. I mean, you remember the great like shift to video of whatever year, you know, 2017 or something where, you know, all these outlets thought video was the future and, you know, that didn't, that really didn't last that long. So, you know, writers were out of jobs and they weren't paying for the big freelance stuff anymore. And
00:05:22
Speaker
and if they did they wanted to own all the rights to them which is a whole other conversation so yeah just kind of like I mean it's really like over the course of a year everything just kind of fell apart and all this stuff wasn't happening anymore I mean there when I got into the into the business it was like the golden age of long-form writing and especially long-form sports writing there was just so much amazing stuff coming out every day and so many great stories and
00:05:47
Speaker
Man, I mean, I missed so many great writers that I discovered and kind of got their career started during that window.
00:05:56
Speaker
Yeah, it's hard to believe that it's been coming up on 10 years since your wonderful Rucker Park piece.
Writing a Sequel to Rucker Park
00:06:04
Speaker
It came across my radar again because I was just working with a young writer who was working on a basketball profile. And I was just thinking, oh, you know what? I think it would help this guy if he read Flinder's piece on Rucker Park.
00:06:20
Speaker
I sent it to him. It had been a while since I read it. You never know if certain things are going to hold up over time. And I read it again. I'm like, God, this piece is so good. And it just gets to the heart of like, I don't know, just chasing that American dream and you just don't have the talent to pull it off. And you knew it too as you were following him.
00:06:43
Speaker
And just giving your basketball background like you could tell. And it's all the more sad. And it still lands with such a gut punch. And it's just a testament to your ability as a storyteller that it's held up so well over 10 years.
00:07:01
Speaker
Yeah, thanks, man. I mean, it's I mean, it's probably the story I love more than any other that I've done. I mean, it's so meaningful. And we kind of came at an interesting time in my life, too, where, you know, when I was going to New York with him on the on the bus, I just brought a couple bags and moved to New York, you know, my life was kind of in flux as well. So it was really impactful for me. And it's interesting because
00:07:26
Speaker
I'm still in touch with TJ all the time. I hear from him. He'll text me out of the blue constantly. So he's had a really interesting story over the last 10 years himself. And it's funny because right before you emailed, he called me. He said, man, 2023 is a 10-year anniversary of my article. We have to do something. We got to celebrate or write a sequel or something.
00:07:56
Speaker
So I think at the time, I wasn't very hopeful that anything very good was going to happen to him. But it really is a testament to that extreme belief in self, even if you don't have the talent or ability to back it up, that he's kind of made something of himself over these years. Yeah. If you were to pen some sort of a thousand word epilogue, how would that start?
00:08:26
Speaker
Ah, that's a good question. I mean, it would probably start, you know, and he'll be okay with me telling this because he wanted to, he wanted to kind of get this, get this stuff out there again, you know, get his, get his sequel out again. But, you know, it would start with he, I was kind of on a vacation and then like Palm Springs and he called me out of the blue and he's like, man, I am, I'm suicidal and I don't know what to do. I need you to help me.
00:08:54
Speaker
And man, I get emotional thinking about it. Cause it was like, he's kind of become like a little brother over these years, you know, which I never really, never really imagined. And I mean, it's also nearly impossible to find a therapist if you don't have money, you know, money to pay for like him. And you know, that was, that was a challenge in and of itself, but you know, this is probably.
00:09:19
Speaker
five, four or five years after the article came out, I got that call from him, he had kind of hit a hit a bottom, you know, one of his friends had committed suicide, he, he found out he was a father of an eight year old kid that he had no idea back in Sacramento. Wow. You know, his job it and did he, he was in New York trying to trying to do it. And he had always turned to basketball and he got hurt. He had given up basketball. And it was
00:09:48
Speaker
He ended up taking up running and he kind of became like a long distance runner and get up super early and start running and slowly his mental health started to improve and kind of to get things back on track. And he has this little kid ability to get really excited about things that I think a lot of us would
00:10:14
Speaker
think aren't that cool anymore, you know, like he loves basketball cards and he'll call me and say, oh, I got this new, like, Anthony Hardaway, 1993, I can't believe it, it's incredible, you know. And he, you know, he moved, he moved, so he went back to Sacramento after the story and then ended up coming back to New York and trying his luck in New York and he got a job at CVS in Manhattan and he thought it was like the
00:10:38
Speaker
greatest job in the world and he got promoted and eventually that job ended and about a year ago as everything in his life is improving he got a job at the world trade center the new world trade center on the top floor as a security officer and he'll send me these pictures of him on the top floor
00:10:57
Speaker
you know, view of New York and he'll be like, people don't know, but I have the greatest job in America. Like this is the coolest thing in the world. This is my dream. I just stand here. I'm here for eight hours and I get to see New York and see the skyline.
00:11:11
Speaker
And I'm like, man, how cool that he's kind of figured out how to have the life that he wants to have. That's good for him. And he doesn't compare himself to others or what other people think. For me, if I'm having a bad day and the writing's not going well, sometimes I call him and he's like, man, my life's incredible. I'm at the World Trade Center and I have a new basketball card. And he has this real boyish quality that's
00:11:41
Speaker
That's just contagious when you start to talk to them. When you get into the, and I've talked about it frequently on the show, about that comparison mindset that I think is especially toxic in what we do over the years, because it does, it always feels like, especially when social media really glommed on about 10 years ago and has done nothing more to really improve the landscape.
00:12:09
Speaker
is like you start seeing everyone's, everybody's successes and anthologizing this and then you're like, man, why am I not getting that? And you know, I just feel like crap and it looks like they're killing it. And it sounds like that's something that, you know, it's something I wrestle with almost on the daily, but it sounds like something you wrestle with time to time as well.
00:12:29
Speaker
Oh, absolutely, man. I mean, I had to get off social media pretty much for a long time, just because there just wasn't a lot of good coming out of it for me. It wasn't like adding a lot of value. And you do get into that place of, Oh, why haven't I done this or that? And, and yeah, absolutely. You know, I went a kind of, I guess going, if we're going way back, you know, I used to play pro basketball for a lot of years and,
00:12:58
Speaker
When that ended, this is back in 2012, beginning in 2012, you know, I went through like a months of just deep depression, not knowing what to do with my life. What am I going to do? You know, all that value you get from being an athlete and looking at your stats and people telling you you're doing great or people telling you you're doing terrible at these extreme highs and lows you get that kind of define your life.
00:13:25
Speaker
You know, you don't really have that anymore. You don't even have like a game on the weekend to look forward to or season or everything kind of starts to unravel. So it took me a while to really like find the next thing and writing was kind of the next thing. And it gave me a lot of those like competitive juices I'd get playing and
00:13:46
Speaker
and telling somebody's story. And I would almost be able to tell my story through this person. And there was just so many great things I got out of it. And then kind of the same thing happened as what we were talking about earlier.
00:13:59
Speaker
You know, when that long-form world kind of collapsed, I went back to this, well, what do I do now? Like, how do I find that value in myself if I'm not getting this hit? And just learning over the last few years how to actually, like, not rely on my job and work and...
00:14:19
Speaker
you know, whether I was a basketball player or a writer, whatever it is, to constantly seek that validation like from somebody else, because that's, I mean, on social media, it's just, it's constant. It's constant. How many likes did I get? How many retweets? What do people say? What's going on? And then when you see somebody like TJ, who doesn't really have that at all, you know, he's, he doesn't really compare himself to anybody. He's very much his own person. He has his challenges, no question.
00:14:49
Speaker
But he has these passions that he loves that are just for him. He doesn't care what anybody thinks. He has his job that he loves that's just for him. And it's really inspiring in some ways to have that kind of person in my life that I can look towards.
00:15:06
Speaker
You mentioning that TJ found running and running, I feel, is a sport that saves a lot of people. And not that TJ's addicted to anything, but a lot of addictive personalities are drawn to running because they get a similar buzz, but it's certainly not as not as toxic. And did you just get a sense in talking to him that like, you know, and also just intellectualizing the sport of running, like that there is just something akin to that sport that is that can save someone's life?
00:15:37
Speaker
Here's an interesting question. I mean, I never would have pegged TJ as somebody who would have taken up running. He didn't really seem like that kind of person. But I think for him, there was something very meditative about it. His mind is going a million miles an hour, and he can just get in the zone and run. And I think running kind of has that therapeutic quality where you can just get in the zone and just stay in the zone for as long as you can do it.
00:16:05
Speaker
And, you know, everything kind of floats away. You know, especially people who are very, like, analytical and in their mind a lot, for sure, or addictive personalities, as you say, like, for me, it's not something I've ever really been able to get into.
00:16:24
Speaker
I've read some books on running and I think it's really fascinating too how people push their bodies through running and that constant need to get to the next level and get to the next level and get to the next level. I find very fascinating and interesting in a lot of parallels to athletes in general.
00:16:47
Speaker
When your basketball career came to an end and you were kind of in that funk and something I can kind of relate you to, I never reached the heights of baseball that you reached in basketball, but when I was cut from my college team, so I would have been 20 at the time, so this was in 2000. And it was weird, you had this thing that you're very regimented, your life was dictated by, and then all of a sudden it's gone.
00:17:13
Speaker
And I similarly was just rudderless and even sometimes I feel like the last twenty years have been in some way rudderless as a result of not having the focus that sports gave me. But you mentioned that you're in a bit of a funk, so how did you come to writing and how did writing start to pull you out of it?
Discovering Passion for Writing
00:17:36
Speaker
I mean, it's interesting because you're really losing your identity, your core sense of self, who you are. I was a basketball player and an athlete from the time I was six years old. And when that goes away, you're stripping yourself down to its core. Who am I? What is my purpose? What do I do?
00:17:59
Speaker
And there's really nothing more powerful than your identity and your sense of self. Everything is kind of wrapped around that. And I think we're constantly on this quest to like find our sense of self. And for me, it kind of even started before I stopped playing. I got hurt for like six months and I was living with a girlfriend at the time and I just started to write kind of my funny stories
00:18:29
Speaker
from playing basketball. She said, oh, stop telling me these stories. Just go write them down. So I ended up actually just writing a book of like a fictionalized version of my first year playing in France. And it's just in the back of a closet somewhere. But I love the process of writing a chapter, going back, editing it, writing it again, editing it. You know, it was just really exhilarating. I started a little blog I did out there.
00:18:54
Speaker
And then when I finished playing, I didn't know that, you know, writing could be like a career or sports writing, or I didn't know about any of that. And there was this old website called The Classical, great website, David Ross website. And they had this segment where they talked about different players. Every writer would write about their favorite player and something interesting about them, and incredible writers who wrote for them.
00:19:23
Speaker
And so I wrote one about Ricky Rubio and I played against Ricky Rubio in Spain and it was kind of this like Mozart versus Scagliari or Salieri, I guess his name and that I could never get to his level. He was just on this completely different plane.
00:19:41
Speaker
And I loved the process. I did seven, eight drafts. Didn't get paid for it. Loved the process. Loved the editing process. And I was just hooked. I was really into it. People kind of got into it. And from there, I was like, OK, this is what I want to do. How do I actually do this? And I didn't have any idea. So I wrote another article for free and another one and another one. And finally, Glenn Stout asked me to write something for him.
00:20:09
Speaker
website old SB nation and then I was a writer and that's just that's just kind of how it happened. I almost stumbled into it but it gave me something to like hang my hat on gave me something that I could like wake up and look forward to and
00:20:24
Speaker
think about these stories and how do I tell them? And I love the process of the reporting and meeting somebody and getting them to tell me their story. And people were just so eager to tell their story. And I felt like I got something almost therapeutic on my end, moving through.
00:20:46
Speaker
basketball phase into the writing phase, hearing people's stories and then being able to write them down and almost like tell a piece of my own story. So it's great, man. It's an interesting time in my life for sure.
00:21:01
Speaker
Yeah, I love that you don't have the traditional path to this and I think it's really inspiring that if you just approach it with curiosity and just kind of a love for the process that you can make something beautiful and make some beautiful art.
00:21:20
Speaker
Whether any of us can like make a living doing it anymore is a different topic for another day But it but it seems like it really stemmed from you know your your curiosity and and just a willingness to kind of slog your way through the work and and and that's how you started to build the body of work and that was your resume not just
00:21:41
Speaker
where you went to college and a connection you made. It was just like, I'm gonna make this. And it stood on its own and it got noticed just based on the sheer rigor and your willingness to do the work even if you weren't getting paid for it at the time.
00:21:58
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think there's something to be said about, you know, having passion for something, you know, because I didn't have that background, like you said, but I loved it. You know, I would read articles all the time. And if there was one I liked, I would just sit and read it over and over. You know, how did he do this transition here? How did he structure it like that? And that's really interesting the way he used these quotes.
00:22:21
Speaker
Whoever it is, I mean, there was, you know, somebody I really loved reading was Jeff Charlotte, great writer. And, you know, a couple of those articles, I would just read over and over and over how he was able to do that and structure things. But there were so many great writers.
00:22:35
Speaker
I always, it always makes me sad now when I see people on Twitter or other people say like, what do you, what do I tell young writers when they ask me what they should do or young journalists?
Challenges in Journalism Today
00:22:45
Speaker
I say, find another profession, you know? And I think that's kind of sad because if you're really passionate about it and it's really what you want to do, you know, why not figure it out? Why not find the path that's going to work for you?
00:22:59
Speaker
I love hearing you say that you would reread these pieces and try to see things different way. It's kind of like to use a sport metaphor that I like is like going to the game tape and like go there, rewind, watch it again, rewind, okay. I'm starting to see things now.
00:23:15
Speaker
and it took me a long time to read as a writer and I wonder like for you like how did that switch turn on for you where you were starting to see the structure and see the architecture of a piece and yeah be able to deconstruct it yeah it happened it was glenced out man I mean he was he was like a huge mentor for me I think this Rucker part was probably the third piece I wrote for him but the first one I wrote about uh
00:23:45
Speaker
You know, Chris Copeland who was 29 year old rookie with the New York mix and his journey I played with him in Europe and his journey.
00:23:57
Speaker
And I remember, you know, as we were going through that process, I would call him and it was like, you know, taking a grad level course in long form writing, you know, he would walk me through how structure works, how this might work, go read this article, go read that article. And it was like a light bulb went off like, man, this is incredible.
00:24:21
Speaker
putting all these pieces together of the puzzle so that this piece can flow the way it flows and feel the way I want it to feel. And, you know, there was this like poetry to it and cinematic element. Like it was just, it was beautiful. And I learned so much from him really. And also kind of how to, how to think about writing and how to think about long form writing. You know, even something as simple as,
00:24:49
Speaker
You know, read it out loud to yourself two times before you, you know, send it to the next round, send it to the editor, see how it sounds, how does it flow? Does it sound right to you? You know, even stuff as simple as that have been, you know, really valuable.
00:25:05
Speaker
And when you're reporting and interviewing and getting into that phase of things, to what extent do you prep for an interview versus leaving yourself just completely open to how the conversation will go and then just kind of read the conversation versus steering it with whatever prep you might have done?
00:25:29
Speaker
You know, it's interesting, like, and when I first started, I would have put my recorder down, you know, this is in person, and I would put my recorder down, I'd have my notebook out, I'd have all my questions, and I'd start interviewing them, and it just would come across a little awkward, and they'd be glancing down on my notebook as I was writing or glancing down on my notes.
00:25:52
Speaker
It wasn't very fluid, so I stopped doing that. I just put my phone down, record. I wouldn't bring a notebook. I wouldn't bring any notes. I generally wouldn't even prep. I just have a basic idea of what I wanted to talk about.
00:26:09
Speaker
And then it started to flow a lot more naturally. And I began to see, oh, I know this. I've done this. This is dating, right? This is like going on a date. I'm trying to not reveal too much of myself, get information from you to see how we get along. That's the whole dating process. And so it became a lot more
00:26:39
Speaker
a lot more fluid for me in doing that. And I began to have like, you know, just better relationships during that interview process where we could kind of bounce off each other a little bit and really getting to the heart of rather than saying, okay, they need to answer these specific questions. It was like, sometimes they would take me on a path that I never even expected, telling me about stuff I never even expected.
00:27:09
Speaker
and then start to get closer to the heart of actually what I wanted to write about. The key though, was always to leave it and say, hey, is it okay if I call you if I have more questions? Because there's always stuff that's gonna come up, always stuff you forgot to say as you do more reporting, new things are gonna come up. And then you've kind of built that rapport because you had this like nice fluid conversation
00:27:37
Speaker
where you can call and say, Hey, what about this other thing? Um, and that's really when you get the good stuff is that second or third time you talk to them. That's such a good point too. Cause as you're talking to them and you might, they might say something like in the back of your mind, you're like, Oh, that's, that's pretty juicy. I want to talk about that. But if you interrupt them and, and, uh, and try to get them to unpack that you can like derail things. So it's always great. Like you go back and be like,
00:28:04
Speaker
there are there are moments where you like feel like you should in the moment follow up and then they're like oh that's something I definitely want to circle back to but you don't want to like totally derail the conversation so it's like yeah if you can get back to that second or third conversation you can really get super granular and just keep going deeper and deeper and deeper yeah I mean I agree and even I just think you know I just think it's like it's treating
00:28:30
Speaker
the people you interview as human beings. Maybe there's stuff you just don't broach, and you're not going to get that information. And that's just what it is. It kind of makes me cringe when I hear journalists talk about their quote unquote subjects. These aren't lab rats. These aren't people who were just extracting information from them at all costs. There's a certain human element.
00:28:57
Speaker
And I think it's really important to remember that as we do this. Yeah, speaking of a human element, I'm just thinking of, you know, of TJ and Rucker Park, you know, there's like moments too where just from a pure basketball perspective and even like maybe even in a slightly character way, you know, you do land, you know, certain judgments and even some pity.
00:29:26
Speaker
And it can come across as harsh. I imagine for him, maybe it would be hard to read, be like, oh, Flinter, you made that assertion, which you could, because you had the authority to. And I wonder, for you, just given that human element, what's the challenge for you in sometimes making that assertion on the page, even if it might be a little hurtful?
00:29:51
Speaker
Yeah, that's a tough one. I mean, because you do build a relationship with somebody, especially if you're, if you're writing about them, right? You're writing, I mean, the whole thing's about TJ and his journey. And I think there's a, there's, there is a back and forth and there's a challenge with it. And I think editors can help with that. But ultimately, it's just a feel. Does this feel like I'm seeing the truth and I'm seeing it in a way that
00:30:17
Speaker
isn't going to destroy somebody because you know, when that article did come out, TJ was, you know, he was pretty hurt by it. He, you know, and I think a lot of people, if you, when they read something about themselves can feel a little shocking. And I think he still, it, the thing that was the most hurtful was reading that he wasn't very good at basketball. Right. Yeah. Cause that's, that was his entire identity was he had built, he had built this.
00:30:44
Speaker
this persona of this great basketball player. But I felt like I was not just telling the truth, but telling the truth of TJ's story and who TJ actually is. And I think if you're getting to that place of if you're actually telling who this person is,
00:31:04
Speaker
then I think you're okay. And obviously our relationship is great now because there was that like honesty that I had and that he had with me. But I mean, I think I can even give you another example. I did this story about Jill McKnight about five years ago. Jill McKnight was like a great football player who died in a road rage killing. And I talked to his family and his family
00:31:31
Speaker
wanted me to write the story. And I really struggled with how to talk about his relationship with his mom, right? Because it was so central to who he was. And it was a challenging relationship. So I went back and forth and back and forth.
00:31:52
Speaker
And I ended up kind of really smoothing it over, but doing it in a way that showed that they didn't have a very good relationship. And I think when this came out, when that came out, you know, his sister and his mom weren't very happy that I had put that in at all. And I understood that. And I had to really like look at that, whether that was worth it and whether it was necessary to do that or not do that.
00:32:16
Speaker
And it took me, you know, I processed that for a long time and I came to the conclusion that to really tell the story of who he is, that had to be in there. And ultimately like his legacy and who he is, is important, right? I think he is the first thing he is because of that relationship with his mom. And over time, you know, I'm actually now cool with his sister. And we talk from time to time and she,
00:32:45
Speaker
you know, has even wanted me to do a follow up on that. So I think she saw too how important that was to the article. But man, it's challenging and you really have to grapple with it. And I don't think anything is just like this idea that I have to tell the quote unquote truth at all costs. I mean, you really have to just have some empathy and feel like what's right and what's not.
00:33:11
Speaker
And also, circling back to interviewing as technique and skill, there's obviously interviewing for information, but there's also interviewing for scene.
Techniques for Building Scenes
00:33:23
Speaker
And that's so integral to the work that you've done, if you're not on the scene, too. So maybe you can delineate between the two and how you approach interviewing and building scene when you're not on the scene.
00:33:41
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good one. I mean, I think it's, it's kind of what I was talking about before where I think you get a lot of that great scene stuff the second or third time you talk to somebody, you know, cause you, I'm trying to get a full picture of what is actually happening the first time, who's involved, what's going on. And then.
00:34:03
Speaker
If I talk to them again, I can say, well, what happened in this situation? And they'll say, well, X, Y, and Z happened. OK, but walk me through it like I'm not there. Tell me exactly what happened. OK, this happened and that happened. OK, and then when that happened, what happened with that? I think it's like really wanting to get these little details.
00:34:28
Speaker
And I think most people really want to talk about that stuff. I had this fear in the beginning.
00:34:34
Speaker
Am I pushing too hard? Are they getting annoyed that I'm like asking these little details about this? Event that seems maybe to them maybe insignificant, right? Are they does this bother them? Um, there's that fear that kind of pops up, you know, because we're all human, right? We all like this need to want to still want to be liked even by the person who anybody we're speaking to, right? Yeah, so so uh
00:34:58
Speaker
You know, but I think I think like I realized they get really excited by that. They want to tell these little details. They want to tell these moments in their lives that have just kind of passed. And now all of a sudden this random person reporter is coming in and they think it's important. They want to talk about it. You know, so I was always amazed at how
00:35:19
Speaker
how willing people were to share, share their story. It's like for some people, it's like they've been waiting their whole life to share this story or to share this little anecdote about this other person or to share, you know, they get really jazzed and buy it. And I kind of feed off that. And then we're kind of doing this dance where we're getting deeper and deeper. And there's so much excitement. I mean, I love that part of it. I absolutely love that part of it. And that connection you have with other people and just hearing their stories, I think it's great.
00:35:50
Speaker
Yeah, when I was reading Robert Caro's memoir on writing, just called Working, his big thing was, and getting to the scene-building thing, is like, if I were standing right behind you, what would I be seeing? And he would constantly bang them over the head with that over and over again. If they weren't being more forthright with the details, he'd be like,
00:36:15
Speaker
I'm right there. I'm right behind you. Like, tell me everything you see, like everything you're seeing. And sometimes it can be some of those, some people might think certain details just don't matter, but it's just like, well, was it windy? What was
00:36:30
Speaker
What was the temperature? Did you see your breath coming out of your mouth? These little things that maybe if we were on the scene, we could take little notes about that. But it's getting them, nudging them in that direction is it can be a bit of a challenge. And I think they can kind of get annoyed. But at the same time, once they get going and the momentum starts building like you were just saying, like, it just starts spilling out and it can just be so fruitful and really fun because you see the the Polaroid picture coming into development. Totally, totally. I mean, I.
00:37:00
Speaker
I remember one of the articles telling you about Joe McKnight. And I was asking his mentor, he had a meeting with Joe. And we were talking about this meeting. And I said, what did you eat? He said, oh, I had this steak. It was well done or whatever. And it was lightly salted. And then we had this drink and it was on my left hand side. And I was like, man, this is so cool. I felt like I was in the room with them.
00:37:29
Speaker
And some of that stuff made it in. I remember I was like, okay, they had a, they sat down, he had a steak medium rare, well done, you know, and maybe nobody even noticed. But for me, I was like, that is the coolest little detail to get in there.
00:37:45
Speaker
You know, and I think sometimes, even as readers, we don't really even notice, but it just sucks us into the story. I read something a while back where a detective had picked up her coffee and it was, you know, with a splash of milk. And I was like, man, what a great little detail. It just kind of puts me in her office.
00:38:11
Speaker
already, you can smell it, you know, you smell it, you see it, you taste it, it's all right there. Yeah, it kind of gets to just hearing you talk about that too and how to really develop like just a really, in nonfiction it can be so challenging, but like what you're saying is you're really appealing to the senses and that can just really paint a picture, the smells, the tastes, it really puts a reader right there.
00:38:38
Speaker
Yeah, and I think you almost have to think of it cinematically. If this was we were sitting and watching this, what does it look like? What does it do? What does it do to us? And how does it stimulate us, stimulate our senses? I mean, I love that stuff. And the colors, what is the colors? What was on the wall? I mean, the TJ article,
00:39:06
Speaker
I remember the piece when I walked into his room in Sacramento and he had these, this Jordan cutout and
00:39:16
Speaker
Ray Jean Rondo's picture and his jersey and the music that was coming out of his headphones and what does that all feel like and look like? And sometimes that takes multiple drafts to really get to that place where it starts to click for us as writers and what does it all feel like. But that's the good stuff. That really is the good stuff. That's the stuff I love.
00:39:41
Speaker
Yeah and there's something that to this day and I'll probably never get over it. I have like a tremendous amount of anxiety around cold calling and especially if I if there's no soft intro be it an email or a text when you know like you know you're placing this call someone gave you a phone number to go call someone and
00:40:02
Speaker
and you just gotta make that call and your foreign phone number is gonna come across their caller ID and if they even pick up, it's gonna be like, all right, this is who I am, this is how I got the number, this is why I wanna talk to you. That shit just makes me so anxious and I wonder for you if you have any cold calling anxiety and if you do, how you work with it and if you don't, just what that experience is like for you.
Overcoming Cold Calling Anxiety
00:40:32
Speaker
That's funny. I mean, yeah, I have a lot of anxiety around that. I mean, especially if it's somebody that you really need for the story and you're really open to talk to and you're like, man, this is not going to go good. Like how do I, how do I even approach this? Like, is it, do I have a backup plan? Like what's going on here? I don't think there's necessarily an easy way to do it.
00:40:54
Speaker
I think sometimes I often have to write down a script that I'm going to say as soon as I pick up the phone so I'm not just there stuttering and mumbling through what's going on. I think the more clear you are about what you're asking for and
00:41:11
Speaker
how to set that up, the more likely you're going to get it. I think in the beginning, there was a lot of like, oh, if I'm really nice and they like me, then they'll want to talk to me. That type of stuff. And I think as you get older and you do it a lot more, there's the power of clarity and just being really clear what you're asking for.
00:41:36
Speaker
These are the times we can do it. Let me know what works. And I think people respond a lot better to that.
00:41:43
Speaker
Yeah, sometimes when I do that too, I try to be as quick as possible and be like, listen, I know I'm catching you flat-footed. We don't have to do this now. If you're open to it, let's set up a time that feels good for you. And I feel like sometimes their hackles go down a little bit, like, why the hell are you calling me? Who the hell are you? I haven't even seen your face. You're just this random, in my case, a North Carolina phone number.
00:42:08
Speaker
You know, coming across and I live in Oregon now. So it's like, you know, they're like, where are you? Where are you? Where are you from? Blah, blah, blah. And so like kind of defraying it a little bit. Be like, listen, we get this is who I am. What I want to talk about. Don't have to do it now. I write a script to like I'll have it in a Google Doc and I'll be right there. So nice and short and punchy little bullet points. So I so I'm mindful of time and mindful of my
00:42:34
Speaker
my own anxiety. It definitely helps me out. But yeah, that's helped me anyway. I think the thing is sometimes we have to turn it around. And if somebody just called me out of the blue, how would I respond? I think I have to remember, I think me personally and most people, there's always going to be a little bit of curiosity about what do they want to talk about? Why do they want to talk to me? What's going on?
00:43:05
Speaker
And so remember that, you know, a lot of people are actually think might not want to talk to you probably have some curiosity and want to talk more and figure out what's going on. So, you know, we can always, we can always use that.
00:43:20
Speaker
And, you know, given that I keep bringing up the 10 years since Rucker Park, you know, in the the inner intervening years, like you alluded to it earlier, how there was that pivot to video and think for the for the writers among us, the kind of the floor fell out from from under you. So what have the intervening years been like for you as a creative person, as a writer and as like kind of a documentary filmmaker now?
Transition to Documentary Filmmaking
00:43:47
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's been a bit of a shift to try and figure out, I mean, to be a storyteller, right? Because ultimately, if you're doing creative nonfiction, you're a storyteller. How to do that and shift it into a different medium is a bit of a challenge. And I went through a bit of a existential crisis of, well, what do I do now?
00:44:09
Speaker
I just had to start a new career. And now what am I going to do? For a while, I was like, I'm going to go get my PhD and be a professor. And then I could just have an office and write books. And I think ultimately, my heart is in this. And this is what I wanted to do.
00:44:27
Speaker
But it's been a bit of a challenge. I think always in the back of my mind, documentaries has been kind of the path I wanted to take. But it's a completely different world, getting into the Hollywood world and meeting people and having those meetings and seeing how people operate has been a bit of a learning curve.
00:44:48
Speaker
It's been exciting, it's been challenging. I did a podcast for Audible, kind of a true crime podcast, which was great. I got to spend two months in Canada interviewing people.
00:45:03
Speaker
A lot of the stuff we're talking about translates very well to different mediums. So that was good. And now I've got a bunch of documentaries, a lot of sports stuff that I'm developing and really excited about. Yeah, but it's been a transition. And I'll say, I really miss the writing. I've been kind of shifting to still doing long form writing, but not actually publishing it so I can own the rights.
00:45:30
Speaker
So I have like a stack of long form stuff I've done just cause I've been wanting to do it and think it's important.
00:45:40
Speaker
especially during the pandemic, I got into these great historical American stories that hadn't been told that I really wanted to tell. So that was a lot of fun to kind of dig into that and learn a lot about America at different points in history. But I think, you know, I'm learning, you know, being a storyteller, it's just always being able to be, you know, shift with the times and do different stuff. And so that's kind of where I am now.
00:46:08
Speaker
Yeah, and maybe what are some lessons you've learned from the last 10 years or so that you're looking to sort of parlay into the next phase and maybe the next 10 years? Yeah, that's a great question. Man, tons of lessons. It's funny really to think back 10 years when I started this, when Rucker Park came out,
00:46:37
Speaker
And I was pretty naive about writing and journalism. And it was just something that was really calling me, something that I really wanted to do. And then to think now, like, what's transpired? In some ways, it's like, a lot has happened in 10 years and not that much has happened in 10 years. Like 10 years goes by pretty quickly, right? Yeah. It's pretty remarkable. I mean, certainly, I think following your passion and following that thing that really speaks to you
00:47:08
Speaker
a big lesson for me because I think when you do that, it is gonna work out one way or the other. And learning to be really clear with people, learning to be really clear with yourself. A lot of stuff I learned from doing interviews with people or the whole writing process and the editing process and putting your head down and just getting it done and letting go of some of that perfectionism is probably one of the biggest things really.
00:47:37
Speaker
I think as writers, it's like, oh, we got to, it's got to be perfect. I got to do that 15 drafts until it's perfect. And you know, you kind of make yourself crazy and learning, learning to let go sometimes and say, Hey, this is good. It's not perfect, but it's good. And I'm okay with that. I think honestly, that's probably one of the biggest lessons I learned.
00:47:55
Speaker
Yeah, that's so key. Something I talk about a lot is this ethos from Seth Godin, who he talks about how writer's block is a myth because what people really have a problem with is writing bad.
00:48:12
Speaker
because if you write enough bad stuff, eventually good stuff has no choice but to bubble up. But you just have to be comfortable writing a lot of bad mediocre things. And that's, I think, the testament to writers with perseverance. I'm sure even Wright Thompson's early drafts, I'm sure they're not that great. But he has good editor and he has rigor and he just works through it and works through it and works through it. And then we get these amazing profiles that we've come to revere.
00:48:40
Speaker
So is that something you've learned over the years to just kind of like lower that barrier of entry or that the perfectionism early on and then you can really Yeah, you can turn you can really turn the screws and get something pretty damn good in the end 100% I mean I part of that has to do with your relationship with your editor, you know, you know when I worked with somebody like like
00:49:00
Speaker
Glenn Stouffer, some other editors, and we're willing to do multiple drafts, then I think I would feel a little more comfortable turning a first draft that wasn't amazing, wasn't great, was just, I got it done, and knowing we're gonna get it to a place that feels good. You know, other editors, you know, when I was on staff at, you know, other places, Leisure Report, for instance, like, you know, they want a pretty clean first draft, we're gonna do one more draft and that's it.
00:49:29
Speaker
And that's when the perfectionism would really kick in, like, oh my God, this guy, and then my brain would start melting and I'm overthinking and I'm rewriting 10 times and I'm questioning myself and all this other stuff starts coming up. And learning to let that go a little bit, learning to just put it down and say, okay, this is good.
00:49:54
Speaker
I'm okay. And in doing that, then your first draft is going to end up being a lot better. But so much of it, you know, I remember talking to Glenn Stout early on about this and saying, you know, how do
Writing Advice from Glenn Stout
00:50:08
Speaker
I get around this? How do I deal with some of this anxiety that comes up around trying to get this right and get this perfect?
00:50:16
Speaker
Listen, the only advice I can give you is ass and chair. And I was like, what does that mean? He means just sit down every day and write, just write. And you'll get better at it. It'll get easier and you'll be fine. There's really no shortcut. There's no magic pill I can give you that's going to make this.
00:50:36
Speaker
make this be easier. So, you know, I've tried to take that advice and I think that's a key. I think as a writer often I want to feel great and feel like everything's good and I'm in a great mood and then I can sit down and write something amazing and learning to write when I don't really feel that great, don't really want to write, you know, not feeling amazing is, has been kind of a big lesson for me and something that's really helped me.
00:51:00
Speaker
And one of the first conversations I ever had with Glenn, he, it was great because he was just like, he's like, Brendan, nothing about this game makes any sense. He's like, he's like, all we can control is our effort and everything else is so out of our control. So it's, it goes right back to the ass and share thing. It's like just work on your
00:51:23
Speaker
is work on the thing you're working on, work on your scales if you're a guitar player. That's all you can control. And then you do that long enough, it's just like you just surrender to that process. And typically, if you persevere long enough, good things will start to happen. 100%, I believe that. Especially if you're passionate about it and it's what you want to do, you'll get better at it. But I think that's kind of the
00:51:52
Speaker
That's the trick though, is sometimes you read writers, I'll read, you know, great writers I admire and I'll be like, how the hell did they write this? Like, how did they? Because in my mind, I'm thinking, he just sat down or she just sat down and wrote this and man, like, they're genius. I'll never be on that level. But of course, like, it's, it's drafts and drafts and drafts and thinking about it and thinking about it and getting to that place.
00:52:18
Speaker
And a while ago you had emailed me too about certain things that deal with IP and stuff you've written. So what has been some of the experiences that you've wrestled with with a piece you've written, be it on spec that might be unpublished and IP and things getting, rug getting pulled out from under you and stuff of that nature. I'd love to hear your experience with that.
Intellectual Property in Journalism
00:52:43
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it's a tricky world, right? Because I think in the old days what happened, and IP obviously is intellectual property, like in the old days was when you would write something, generally you would own that piece or you could negotiate to own that piece after 30 days or 90 days. And then if you wanted to take it and option it to film producer, you could do that. You would get the money from that, right?
00:53:09
Speaker
And then as the industry kind of collapsed, a lot of the outlets said, well, no, actually we're going to own the rights. We're going to own at least 50% of the rights.
00:53:19
Speaker
And you're not going to be able to own these rights, which is really tricky, especially if you're not going to pay very much to write it in the first place. And it really kind of changed the game, really. It changed everything because some of the journalistic rules that we abide by kind of went out the window. And I think for a while, I was still trying to abide by some of these journalistic rules about
00:53:49
Speaker
you know, separating those rights from when it would become a film and doing things the right way as a journalist. And then I think when I found out that some places like Texas Monthly, which is revered, you know, they have their own agent in Hollywood, which is taking their own pieces and optioning them.
00:54:10
Speaker
right, so that they're editing them in a way that's gonna make them the most money and turn it into a film, right? It really changed how I viewed that world completely, you know? Because that's not journalistic at all, right? So instead of now taking it to an outlet and having them own it, I started to just take a piece, fund it myself, write it, and then take it straight to film producers where I'd own all the rights.
00:54:39
Speaker
That being said, it's a messy process, right? Because you're missing some of the steps. I would hire an editor and I would fact check it, but you're still missing some of those steps, journalistically, right? So it's a tricky world, right? There isn't really like an easy answer to this. So what happened to me recently was I found this,
00:55:00
Speaker
Incredible story about the first women's soccer team that girls of soccer to their high school soccer team that played in the first FIFA International Women's Tournament in 1984, because there was no US women's soccer team. And they played against the best women in the world of any age, and they, they won the tournament. Incredible kind of miracle and I story.
00:55:23
Speaker
So I wrote that article, it took me like nine months, flew to Dallas, interviewed everybody, wrote the article, and then optioned that. And then that was gonna become a movie and Matthew McConaughey was gonna play the lead, the script was done two weeks before it was gonna get made, it imploded. There was a question about some impropriety, was one of the characters in the story that Matthew McConaughey was gonna play.
00:55:51
Speaker
going back to the 80s and so they shut the whole movie down, which I'm still not exactly sure what happened. Then there was some questions about if would I have found this out, what would have happened if I would have gone through an outlet? I don't think so because I interviewed 20 people.
00:56:11
Speaker
But what if it came out? What if it was on the website, for instance, and somebody wrote a comment down at the bottom? Yeah, maybe. But I think it's a really interesting conversation overall about IP and how as journalists we deal with that because
00:56:28
Speaker
it's not really a level playing field for us anymore. These outlets, they wanna own so much of those rights, even if we're the ones writing it and finding the people and so on. And then there's this other side to it is, if you wanna write it yourself or write it through an outlet, for instance, and you also wanna attach the life rights to the subject you're writing about,
00:56:57
Speaker
You know, how does that work? Because before you wouldn't get the life rights while you're writing the article, because there's a conflict of interest, right? But outlets started to get scoop up the life rights while you were writing it.
00:57:12
Speaker
which is very unjournalistic, right? Yeah. So now authors had to go, or journalists had to go try and get those life rights while they're writing it. So it just, it gets messy, man. It gets really messy and it's kind of created like this weird world.
00:57:31
Speaker
Um, which kind of goes against a lot of the stuff we learned about in, in doing this, these long form pieces. So it's a little bit of, of the wild west in that sense. But I do think for all journalists, it's important to, to own those rights. I would never, never advocate anybody giving up those rights, even even a little bit of them. Like you can, you can publish things on your own website at this point.
00:57:57
Speaker
Right. Yeah. And then it becomes tricky to lobby people to come forward with stories and to trust you when you're like, I'm just kind of doing this for myself versus like having the institutional backing of
00:58:14
Speaker
a bigger magazine or a website which gives you authority and gives them some like a little status bump. It's just like, oh yeah, I'm talking to a guy from the New York Times. Isn't that great? Instead of like, I'm talking to this freelancer who has no idea what he's going to do with the piece. And it's like one carries a lot more weight and will get more, get you the access you want.
00:58:39
Speaker
Sure. I mean, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I now if I'm doing one, I'll be just honest, like, hey, I'm writing this option to turn into a movie. So, you know, I think I think some people still get excited about that. Yeah. But I agree, you know, and it just, yeah, it's kind of a sad way kind of.
00:59:01
Speaker
At this point, there's certain places I would never write for because I wouldn't want to give up all those rights, which is sad. Some great editors I love to work with and so on, but it's just the way of the business right now. At this point, I think I have an idea, but I'd like to get a sense of where, at this point, where your ambition lies.
00:59:28
Speaker
Yeah, I think you probably have to ask a follow-up question in what sense. Just like where you, you know, what's exciting you and where you want to take your writing, your filmmaking, like, you know, even, you know, when you were 30 or, you know, 10 years ago, I'm sure you had a certain, you know, ambition that's getting published in various these places, Espionage, Bleacher, wherever.
00:59:51
Speaker
And, you know, that those ambitions can kind of morph over time. So I wonder just like where you see your what excites you and where you see yourself going where you want to go.
Future Goals in Sports Documentaries
01:00:02
Speaker
Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I just really want to like, just be a storyteller and get these stories out there. I mean, I want to, I think the big goal is I want to direct some
01:00:13
Speaker
some great sports documentaries. I think that's kind of the next 10-year goal. Like 30 for 30 stuff, like that kind of thing. Yeah, similar kind of stuff or whatever. Yeah, not in that realm. I think that's kind of the next thing I really want to kind of go for in attack.
01:00:38
Speaker
I still want to do some long-form writing and exactly the way I was just talking about write stuff that could be option for film. I still want to be able to do that because I just love that process. Being able to interview somebody without a camera, without a bunch of huge recording equipment.
01:01:00
Speaker
It's just a great, amazing process and experience that you can't really replicate as in a documentary or a podcast.
01:01:11
Speaker
Yeah, there's an intimacy with just you and a person, your recorder and notebook. And it's it's a much more like a solo artist type thing, even though there is some collaboration editor and whatever. But it is so much more like intimate and the process is much more just in your hands, in your hands alone. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And you actually get to build real relationships with people. You know, I think with your interviewing somebody with a big camera,
01:01:39
Speaker
you're not really building a huge relationship in that way. I mean, look at me and TJ now, you know, we're, he's like a little brother, because we, we just, we're talking for hours and hours with just, you know, my phone in my pocket. And that's it. And there's just something really magical about that. So I think I'm always going to do that in some form in some way, you know, even if I'm funding my own pieces, because I just, it's such a passion for me.
01:02:07
Speaker
Yeah, I almost liken it to short story writers in fiction. It's like no one in their right mind is, unless you're George Saunders or like, is gonna like make a living writing short stories. And so it's like, I almost feel like long form journalism, the stuff that we're so drawn to is almost like that. It's like you just gotta treat it like, you know, the passion fiction project. And if you get a few bucks for it, great. Otherwise you're doing it for the love and for the art of it.
01:02:38
Speaker
Exactly. It's like being a poet, you know, at this point, it's like, you know, there's there's there's definitely it's almost become like a niche audience to that wants to that wants to read those long form stuff, which is sad. I mean, you you remember, seven, eight years ago, 10 years ago, this there was it was like the golden age for these long form articles. And there was a big audience and a lot of people read it. You know, it's just you don't really go on the internet to find
01:03:08
Speaker
I mean, you do. But I think most people aren't going on the internet to find the next great long-form article. Very nice. Well, Flinder, as I like to bring these conversations down for a landing, I always ask the guests for a recommendation of some kind for the listener out there. And that can be anything you're excited about, be it a pair of socks or a brand of coffee or a book or a movie. So yeah, I'd extend that to you, Flinder, what you recommend for the listeners out there.
01:03:38
Speaker
Um, uh, man, just what pops to my mind is, uh, I'm reading this book by Rebecca Solnit called Orwell's roses, which is really great. It's she, she visited George Orwell's garden in the UK. And then she just writes a bunch of like a little short chapters about roses and Orwell and goes on these wild tangents. And it's just been a really fun ride. So I recommend it.
01:04:05
Speaker
Oh, yeah, she's amazing. I got to pick that up and read that. Awesome, man. Well, thank you so much for the time and for Talking Shop and getting a sense of what these intervening 10 years have been like. I look forward to this being what I hope is the first of many conversations that we have on mic or off mic. So I just want to thank you for the time. Yeah, sounds great. Thanks for having me on. Been listening to your show for a while, so exciting to be here.
01:04:35
Speaker
Hey, thanks for listening, CNFers, and thanks to Flinder. I love writers who have non-traditional paths. It's a long-form non-fiction. Sometimes I think the best of us, or the best, I won't say us, but I will say the best in this cluster of weirdos who do this kind of storytelling come, they don't, they didn't go to like a writing program or J school or anything. They just study at the, at the, at the fate of the masters.
01:05:05
Speaker
That's what Flinder did and he is definitively one of the masters in my humble opinion if you like this conversation as much as I did consider sharing it and tagging me in the show at CNF palette and Twitter and at creative nonfiction podcast on Instagram consider heading to patreon.com slash CNF pot and throw a few bucks into the tip jar show is free But it sure as hell ain't cheap and you can always rage against the algorithm with my up to 11 Monthly newsletter by heading to Brendan O'Mara calm. Hey, hey
01:05:33
Speaker
There you can also get show notes to this episode and a billion others. Some of you know, via the Rage Against the Algorithm newsletter, Twitter or Instagram, that it's a done deal. Done deal. The official announcement went out, I think, February, the evening of February 1st on the day Tom Brady retired again.
01:05:54
Speaker
And I blasted it out on Groundhog Day and the book proposal landed. And I got a deal in place with Mariner Books to write, wait for it, The Gift, Steve Prefontaine in the Dawn of the Modern Athlete. And the title comes from one of Pre's famous quotes, which is, to give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.
01:06:21
Speaker
So there you go. I went wide with it, like I said, February 2 and I relished in the dopamine fix that was all the well wishes and it felt good. I know I rail against social media and it often raises my hackles of resentment and jealousy and all that stuff that I talk about, ad nauseam.
01:06:43
Speaker
But I put it out there because that's kind of what you do. It's what you got to do to some extent when you're on This level you need to you need to broadcast it and celebrate it and be your own Champion in that sense and bring it to the bring it to the people and the outpouring it just has been something
01:07:01
Speaker
And like nothing I've ever experienced before it felt real good to put out that publishers marketplace deal alert blurb It's real sweet to see the support and how people Believe in me and are happy for me in a way. I didn't see coming at all
01:07:18
Speaker
I know this little rush of those likes and those retweets and those wonderful comments and I know it'll be short-lived and it'll be back to the work, back to the cave to write the best goddamn book I can write about a big, big icon in track and field.
01:07:38
Speaker
And I got a call from a friend, someone who's been on the pod a bunch of times, and she damn near made me cry. Like, she was just so supportive, and she was so excited and so sweet. And she asked me how I felt, and I said, you know, panicked and nauseous. And she was like, uh-huh, uh-huh. And that's kind of the deal.
01:07:59
Speaker
Yeah, as you wrote in my newsletter that came out just a couple days ago, February 1st, first of the month, no spam can't beat it. This is one of the first times people expect something of me. Yeah, I wrote six weeks of Saratoga on spec. I kind of did that whole thing and it went through a small press and did okay for itself.
01:08:19
Speaker
But again, it was like I incurred the risk and essentially that was it. It felt safe. And now with this book, I have a real nice advance, especially since it's spread out only over a year and a half or so. It's more money than I've ever seen in my entire life.
01:08:37
Speaker
And when I saw the blurb, that marketplace blurb, and then I put it out there like my stomach dropped into my shoes and I haven't been able to eat all day, which is probably good anyway, you might think, Geez, are you capable of feeling any joy? And you'd be right to ask. And yes, I have Googled how to have fun, but there's a lot of pressure to stick the landing on this. And I'm nervous in the way that you get pregame jitters.
01:09:05
Speaker
And that's a good thing. I guess that's like the, when you talk about distress and eustress, this is kind of the eustress. It's the stress of, you know, you're pushing your limits and you're leveling up, I guess is what you would say. Anytime I stepped into the batter's box, I was nervous. And if I'm being honest, a bit gassy, but you know, you're in the right place.
01:09:26
Speaker
you know, you're pushing yourself. My well of current sources for the pre-book, it feels nice, I can actually say what it is. You know, at this nebulous book proposal and looking for sources about Steve Prefontaine, look him up. But my current sources for the pre-book, it's kind of dry right now and people haven't been calling me back. As a result, they've been saving hundreds and hundreds of newspaper articles and coming up with more and more story beats that I hadn't even sketched out in my proposal.
01:09:56
Speaker
And I find that when that happens, like, oh, that's cool. That's nice. That's the stuff that makes for a really good biography, those things that you can dredge up. And I find that my breathing starts to return to normal. And you see names in these articles. Nobody famous. They were just good high school runners. Maybe they ran in college. If they're running beside Prey and they're finishing within a few seconds of him, yeah, they probably ran in college too.
01:10:24
Speaker
And those are those are potential sources. And if they're still alive, that's the thing, too. A lot of these boomers are aging out and they, you know, in their 70s, you know, not everyone makes it that far. And maybe you can find them and talk to them, see what that scene was like. A lot of a lot of dudes in these stories, I bet, haven't there. There are a few that I've always talked about pre and then there are a few brush shoulders with them. But no one was doing any kind of digging to get to them.
01:10:53
Speaker
and then you find those cool things and you're building that scene and then suddenly you're one of the first ones to walk on the moon and you're like on the rim of the sea of tranquility and you're like, fuck, I think I can do this.
01:11:08
Speaker
Then you think about that damn phone call you got from your pal and your eyes start to burn because you sense in her the possibility she and by extension others season you and it's almost too much to bear. Am I being a little melodramatic? Maybe. But it's been a long road, man. I'm lucky and I'm more than happy to share the good fortune and privilege that got me to this point, but I'll save that for another time.
01:11:34
Speaker
And sure, I've been at this for close to 20 years, knocking around this joint, hoping for a shot at big game. And it's here. And now I gotta deliver. I've hit some pretty gnarly potholes already, like ones that scrape the chassis, and you're like, fuck, can I sling on a donut and keep moving? More on that to come.
01:11:57
Speaker
It's easy to feel alone in this mess, and for the first time in a long time, I feel less alone than ever. You know that scene in Harry Potter when he's scared to face Voldemort because he knows he has to let Voldemort kill him? Like, whoa, spoiler alert, Pio. And he turns to the ghost of his parents and his uncle, and they all have Harry's back.
01:12:17
Speaker
I know this shit that I'm doing. It's not life or death. It's just a book. It's just a book. But it's that feeling of having wind at your back and a damn good rudder for the bumpy seas that are no doubt ahead. I have a lot of work to do with a real short runway to do it in. I have to continue my research and write a first draft by April 2024, aiming for a spring 2025 release for a major anniversary.
01:12:46
Speaker
And as I bring this meandering parting shot to a close here, it's also because of you that this even happened. The fact that you tune in and you download the show and you've helped grow it and leave reviews, you've helped secure that coveted platform that made me more attractive to invest in and take a flyer on.
01:13:07
Speaker
There's a lot of room to grow still. I'd love to see the show keep doing its thing. Just keep on showing up, drip by drip. But without the bottom, without you guys listening, I'm not sure this comes together the way it did. And all it took was 10 years. So stay wild, CNFers. And if you can do interview, see ya.