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Episode 354: Nile Cappello
378 Plays2 years ago
Nile Cappello (@liketheriver_) returns to talk about her Atavist piece for Feb. 2023.
Social: @CNFPod
Show notes/Newsletter: brendanomeara.com
Support: Patreon.com/cnfpod
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Transcript
Introduction to Atavist and CNFpod
00:00:00
Speaker
AC and efforts, it's that Atavistian time of the month, so you know, spoilers abound. And while I have your attention, consider going to magazine.atavist.com and subscribe. For $25 a year, you get 12 amazing narrative journalism stories in a year, and let's do the math. That's $2.08 per story, and access to the archive.
00:00:25
Speaker
Amazing. And no, I don't get any dough for referrals, so you know my recommendation is true. Dig it. And I'm a really big believer in the idea that there is always a right moment for a story to be told.
00:00:46
Speaker
Oh hey CNFers, it's CNFpod, the creative non-fiction podcast, the show where I speak to badass people, be it in journalism or memoir or personal essays or biography, I had documentary film, that happens sometimes. I talk to all of them about the craft of telling true stories. I'm Brendan O'Meara, how's it going?
00:01:06
Speaker
Today's guest is a repeat offender in the name of Nyle Capello.
Guest Introduction: Nyle Capello
00:01:10
Speaker
This is her second Atavist story since we started doing these Atavistian podcasts. She's at like the river underscore on Twitter and at yes like the river on Instagram. And this time Nyle brings us into the world of kidfluencers. This is the gnarly world of teens and tweens who make it famous and
00:01:36
Speaker
very rich on YouTube by unboxing toys, clothes, makeup, and they forge friendships and relationships called ships, we'll get into that, that act as middle school versions of reality TV.
Kidfluencer Story: Jana Ramirez's Family Impact
00:01:52
Speaker
If it sounds gross, it's because it is. At the heart of this piece is a mother named Jana Ramirez whose life and family get upended by this kid-fluencer landscaper ecosystem.
00:02:03
Speaker
Because of the internet. It's like the Wild West, but it's also a story as old as Hollywood itself First we're going to hear from say we're Darby editor-in-chief of the activist and author of sisters in hate She's gonna tease out this piece and get the editor side of the table We always like getting both sides of the coin with these out of esteem things. She's pretty cool You don't usually get that right but first a little housekeeping I would love it if you gave the show a
00:02:32
Speaker
know I like to call it a little podcast that could go ahead and subscribe to it if you like getting into the nuts and bolts of true stories be sure to head over to Brendan America come hey for show notes and to sign up for my up to 11 rage against the algorithm newsletter first of the month no spam so far as I can tell you can't beat it you can unsubscribe whenever you want but know that I take it wicked personally if you want to throw a few bucks at the show visit patreon.com slash CNF pot because this show is free but it sure as hell ain't cheap
00:03:02
Speaker
Alright, I think that was a pretty tight intro. Trying to get these interviews, get you to the interviews faster and faster. Why wait? Here's Sayward.
Writing and Storytelling Challenges
00:03:23
Speaker
your position in talking with writers and writers sometimes being insecure about whether they're able to like kind of stick a landing on something. What are conversations that you typically have with a writer who might be just in the throes of those insecurities about whether they can you know land or deliver what they say they're going to deliver.
00:03:44
Speaker
I think a couple of things, because I think there are some different types of nailing the landing or delivering what you promised, because there's kind of the, is this a good draft piece of it? Is this a well-written draft? And is the ending exactly what I want it to be, et cetera, et cetera. But then there's the reporting piece of it, which is not always the case. But in some stories, it's like,
00:04:10
Speaker
Have you actually found your ending yet? Are you going to be able to find your ending? Those are two different conversations because in the case of the first
00:04:24
Speaker
situation. I say, do your best. And then what I'm here to do is to work on that with you. And so send me a draft. It's OK if it's rough. It's OK if you don't think it's perfect. Honestly, if you did think it was perfect, I'd be concerned, because no writer ever thinks their work is perfect. Yeah, like I said, it's a question. Your sociopath. Yeah, exactly.
00:04:49
Speaker
So I always encourage people, like, I'm not here to judge you, I'm here to help you. So, you know, sending something to me when you really feel like you're out of steam or don't know, you know, where to go or just really, you know, feel like you're not quite sure, like, that's exactly the moment to share it with me because I want to be here to help, you know, spark ideas. Maybe you don't need them, maybe you did land it, you know, I don't know. But I always encourage, you know, writers to share
00:05:15
Speaker
And then in the case of the, have you reported it to the point that you need to report it? Is it possible to go farther? It's really dependent on the subject matter, but sometimes we will come up against
00:05:31
Speaker
a situation where your writer had really hoped that they would be able to find X and, you know, therefore describe X, you know, whatever X is at the end of a piece and for whatever reason it's not going to happen. And so then, you know, the conversation we have is not, you know, what can we do about this failure? Because it's not a failure, per se. It's just, you know, a thing that happened. And so oftentimes the conversation is about
00:05:54
Speaker
how do we maybe reframe the project slightly so that the question we're asking isn't promising the delivery of X, like maybe the question the project is asking that propels it forward is different. And so I was actually just having a conversation yesterday with a writer and a film director about a project and we were talking about the difference of like the difference between an ending
00:06:18
Speaker
that feels conclusive like all of the threads tied up and then an ending that answers a question and you know even with threads being loose and you know life is full of loose threads like endings are not always conclusive um to say nothing of you know how they're not uh terribly happy a lot of the time
00:06:33
Speaker
And so, you know, at that point, I think sometimes people are like, well, I went down this path, and therefore, like, I must reach the end of the path. And it's like, okay, well, what if we backtracked and tried a different path, which doesn't mean completely, you know, reworking the story, but again, sort of re re angling it slightly. So yeah, so those are kind of the two different conversations I would I would have with writers
Repeat Writers and Royalty at The Atavist
00:06:56
Speaker
at that point.
00:06:56
Speaker
Nile Capella is back and that that's got to be, you know, something that's got to be nice working with a writer again for the Adivus, which is something that you don't often see a lot of, you know, repeat writers coming in. So that what was it like having Nile back?
00:07:13
Speaker
Yeah, because I calculate our royalties for our writers on a quarterly basis. And so I'm well aware of who's written more than once because I have to add up the royalties from their stories. And there are a handful of people who in the first
00:07:30
Speaker
five-ish years of the Addis Existence wrote more than once. So Matt Share, Josh Hammer, James Verini, Evan Ratliff, obviously our original editor-in-chief. And I'm missing somebody. Oh, Josh Beerman. And then in the last couple of years, it has been pretty infrequent. I think the only two repeat writers up to this point during my tenure have been Greg Donahue and Bill Donahue, not related.
00:08:00
Speaker
And then Nile. And Nile is great. And the thing I love about Nile is that she is the kind of writer who has a ton of ideas at any given time and is kind of always keeping a fire underneath them. So she
00:08:16
Speaker
the the two times she's pitched me if I if I recall correctly both times she didn't pitch me one idea she pitched me several ideas and was like I'm working on this and I'm working on this and I'm working on this do any of these like strike you as interesting um but the thing is it's not just that she's you know been like reading about a thing um and you know considering that maybe she would dive into it like she's already in like she already has sourcing she already
00:08:41
Speaker
you know, she just has a lot of energy, which I really respect. And so in this case, with this particular story, she had been following this tween influencer space on YouTube for a long time, really understood the ecosystem. And she'd also established a relationship with a source who, you know, is ultimately the main sort of subject in in the piece. And Nile is a breeze to work with. She is
00:09:09
Speaker
maybe the most like she responds faster to my emails than pretty much any writer. And I pride myself on responding pretty quickly to emails and she like beats me like wise every time. And she just has a good sense of, you know, she works in documentary films and she has a good sense of like, what makes the story tick. And so it's really fun to work with her. I mean, this piece is interesting because I guess you could describe it as fun on the one hand, but also I think this is maybe one of the scariest pieces we've ever
Kidfluencer Industry vs. Hollywood Child Actors
00:09:38
Speaker
worked on.
00:09:38
Speaker
run even though no one is murdered so yeah it was it was an interesting project for sure it made me think of Judy Garland too and how with child actors and how they're handled like
00:09:53
Speaker
This is something that goes back decades and decades and it's just the medium and the format change and nowadays it's YouTube and unboxing and these quote ships which are these sort of faux relationships and the merging of names and the erasure of identity.
00:10:13
Speaker
all for this really capitalistic gain. It's like such a gross sandbox to be playing in. And so for you, even though the subject matter is just like objectively kind of gross, the quality of the piece and quality of Niles delivery of it is wonderful. So what intrigues you about gross subject matter, but even when the storytelling of it is really well done and masterful?
00:10:44
Speaker
Yeah, well, I mean, what's fascinating about this particular topic, a couple of things that really drew me to it. One is something you were just alluding to, which is the fact that this is a tale as old as Hollywood, right? Child entertainers and what rights they have, what responsibility studios, parents, whoever have to them.
00:11:07
Speaker
Is it ethical at all to put children into entertainment? You know, kind of all these like big, big questions that have been around, I mean, obviously before Hollywood as well. It's just that, you know, Hollywood is the entertainment machine that we all know. And so there was this timeless kind of quality to it. But at the same time, there's this Wild West.
00:11:26
Speaker
aspect because online content creation, you know, when you are making millions of dollars because your kid is unboxing something on YouTube or because your kid is, you know, filming these videos with their quote unquote friends, you know, doing pranks and whatnot. It's like, nobody quite knows
00:11:46
Speaker
how that fits into the entertainment landscape. Like you don't have a studio behind this stuff. You don't have a production company behind this stuff. There's kind of this grassroots aspect of it, which, you know, on the one hand, there's something very
00:12:01
Speaker
American about the like, you know, anybody can succeed, anybody can do anything. But there's also something deeply American about it, insofar as like how quickly it becomes exploitative. And, and so I was really fascinated by the sort of to the the sort of unprecedented quality of the story and sort of the questions that it's asking about like the future of technology and entertainment. But then also the fact that it is just like, you know, a variation on a theme at the same time,
00:12:30
Speaker
like a theme that we've seen, heard, written stories about before. So that was kind of what drew it to me, drew me to it, excuse me, when she pitched it. And then on top of that, it's kind of a morbid curiosity, I think, that draws you into trying to understand this space and why anyone would let their kid get involved in influencing. And I think too, it's like,
00:12:57
Speaker
morbid curiosity, but also there are actual real stakes here, right? You know, about wellbeing, about individual wellbeing, about collective wellbeing, you know, about regulation, all these different things. So, you know, it's not just, oh, this is a weird space that, I mean, I don't have kids. I was not at all like acquainted with this space. I mean, I knew of it, but you know, this was the first time I really spent time watching videos and kind of wanting to hide under my desk because it was freaking me out.
00:13:25
Speaker
Um uh but you know it wasn't just the oh wow oh wow this is weird like let's get underneath the surface and like talk about how weird it is that that's not really it's not voyeuristic in that way I guess is what I'm trying to say um where you know we're just saying like look at this weird thing um we're treating it
00:13:43
Speaker
And Niall definitely treats it really respectfully by saying, we can all acknowledge that this is uncomfortable in certain ways, but are there benefits to it? Are there positive aspects to this ecosystem? If there are, how do we protect them? And I should say the piece, it's not like she's asking these questions in a
00:14:07
Speaker
What sort of looking for kind of eat your vegetables like instructive way like the story is extremely compelling, but I think that those questions are like laced into it. And it's supposed to be a conversation starter. It's supposed to be thought provoking. You know, there's been some reporting on like the lawsuit that I don't want to give too much away but the lawsuit that
00:14:29
Speaker
informs a good bit of the story. But the main subject is actually not involved in the lawsuit because she can't be involved in the lawsuit. And the question of why she can't be involved in the lawsuit is, you know, really kind of the crux of the piece. And another thing that I really liked about the way Niall was approaching the story is that she found a subject who through whose eyes
00:14:52
Speaker
We can see this space like she's learning about the space as her kid is getting involved in it and she almost is like a proxy for the reader in that process. You know, somebody who hasn't spent a lot of time watching 11 year olds pull pranks on each other.
00:15:07
Speaker
Um, on videos that get 7 million views. Um, and so, uh, so yeah, it's a, it's a really tricky story. Um, writing about the internet is always difficult from a, you know, how do you visualize
Legal and Ethical Aspects of Kidfluencing
00:15:20
Speaker
it perspective? But I think that Nile, I mean, she just, she just like had the language, um, new.
00:15:27
Speaker
the kind of key players and knew how to articulate this in a way that, you know, when I asked things in my edit, like, I'm old, explain this to me, please. You know, like, she really knew how to do that in a succinct and, you know, very compelling way. So, yeah, I'll be curious to know how people feel about it. I just keep telling my friends who have kids, I'm like, if you can keep them away from YouTube, do it.
00:15:54
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. I think that's the lesson of it all. It also gets to the sense of how the kid-fluencing landscape, how the influence cuts both ways. They're building this platform in celebrity, but it's also like, degradating and rotting out the foundation of their families.
00:16:15
Speaker
there's a fork in the road like who's gonna choose what and what direction do you go and it's just this really rotten ecosystem that that also permeates this piece.
00:16:26
Speaker
Right. Right. And I do, you know, I think, and I was having this conversation with Nyle yesterday, I want to say maybe two days ago, you know, we don't want to suggest that like, if you get involved in, if, you know, your kid gets involved in this space and you become like a stage mom for your kid, you know, in the YouTube space, you are a bad person. Like that's not what the point of the piece is. The point of the piece is that, you know, if you make that decision, like there is, there are these like rotting part, like rotten to the core parts of an ecosystem like this. And it's kind of a question of like,
00:16:56
Speaker
what do you do about that? You know, if your kid wants to do this, if your kid is good at it, you know, should you stop them from doing it? Or, you know, when should you, where should you draw lines? You know what I mean? And again, I think Niall does a nice job of not saying like, this is where the line is. It's more like trying to shine a light on the landscape and, you know, raising the question of where these lines should be and who should be in charge of enforcing them.
00:17:24
Speaker
So yeah, uh, it was a weird. Yeah. I mean, watching videos with titles, like pretending I forgot my boyfriend for 24 hours, like, um, and the entire premise of this like 15 minute video or whatever is that, you know, this 12, 13 year old hit her head and she can't remember who her quote boyfriend is. Um, and that's it. That's like, it's like a, it's like a sketch, you know?
00:17:46
Speaker
And, uh, it's like weird reality TV for kids. And, uh, yeah, just not, not a world of videos. I mean, to be clear, I also didn't, you know, having written a book about white nationalism before I did that, I didn't expect that I was going to be spending a lot of time watching right wing videos. And this is like, you know, another like weird pocket of the internet. Yeah. I guess I would tell listeners slash readers to click on, click on links at your own risk.
00:18:13
Speaker
Yeah, that was one thing I could not bring myself to do with the draft I had, had embedded links to the videos of these kid influencers. And I would just see, I would drag my cursor over the link and I would see the thumbnail. I'm like, nope, I'm not going to do this. But anyway, this is great. So they were to get this little teaser of Nyle's piece and we're going to kick it over to her in just a moment. So as always, thanks for making the time and talking a little about Nyle's piece here. Thanks, Brendan.
Nyle Capello's Background and Influences
00:18:49
Speaker
It is time for Niall to step back into the spotlight. Niall's been up to some shit, man. You can learn more about Niall at YesLikeTheRiver.com. She's an L.A.-based investigative writer and producer, shortly after her first Atavist... Atavist? Atav...
00:19:07
Speaker
Yes, the Atavist magazine. Shortly after her first Atavist piece, Girl in the Picture, ran in August 2021, Nile executive produced The Way Down, which came out a month later, a docu-series on HBO Max, and premiering this month as in January. So I guess maybe by the time some of you listen to this, it might be last month.
00:19:28
Speaker
Let's just say January 2023 is Death in the Dorms, a six-part docu-series on Hulu. As I already mentioned, she is at like the river underscore on Twitter and at yes like the river on Instagram. And here's Niall Capello back for more.
00:19:56
Speaker
There are certain stories or books that get us excited about doing this kind of work and then we kind of...
00:20:05
Speaker
develop and evolve as writers and reporters or journalists. And sometimes those pieces still, they age well and they still are, you know, are still great to us. Sometimes they don't. And I wonder if for you, if there are pieces that you, that inspired you, I don't know, 10 years ago, five years ago, that still hold up for you as you've developed as a writer and a journalist.
00:20:29
Speaker
Yeah, that's a great question. I'm a big Joshua Beerman fan. So he wrote an article, I believe, for GQ years ago that was about, it was called, I think, Coronado Company. And it was about my high school and a drug smuggling ring that was like run out of my high school with a bunch of water polo players.
00:20:59
Speaker
And so that article is one that I think opened up this kind of world to me. It was something that I related to on such a personal level, but was told in such a masterful way that really brought us into this world that I did know quite well. And so that is something I think about. Obviously, he also wrote the article that Argo is based on. He's written for Adivis.
00:21:24
Speaker
He's someone in general that I look to his work and he kind of opened up this world in a lot of ways to me that's kind of a hybrid of investigation, but also storytelling and being able to really bring these characters to life and people and their plights and their struggles and the nuance and their quirks and conversations in a way that adds a lot of color and flavor to a story, but while at the same time,
00:21:52
Speaker
uncovering truths that really need to be told. So, you know, in a different way that you might see it in, you know, a news article or a news program or, you know, on the other hand, like a true crime book as well. I felt like that, you know, he's someone I think of that really, you know, kind of paved the way, at least for me personally, in this space and what the potential could be there.
00:22:15
Speaker
Nice. And when you stumbled across your latest story for The Atavist, what was the nature of the pitch process for you when it came to this particular piece, when you decided to bring your second rodeo with The Atavist and Sayward? This is an interesting one because I've been following this space that the story lives in.
00:22:40
Speaker
I would say early 2018, if not before that. So it's been, you know, a good God, what is that four or five years at this point that this has been a topic I've wanted to address, you know, I had been following in general kind of the business side of shipping and crushes and
00:22:59
Speaker
Allow me to jump in here and what Nile means by shipping is not FedEx or UPS. And I still have a beef with FedEx for ruining a box of my journals and losing one of my valuable journals. And I've been journaling since I was 16, so like over 25 years. Anyway, shit doesn't matter.
00:23:21
Speaker
Shipping in this instance is the relationships between these tween kid fluencers and the merging of their names, like, let's see, my wife's name is Melanie, I'm Brendan, so maybe our ship, if we were like 13 years old, we might be like, Brellany.
00:23:44
Speaker
So anyway, that's the context of shipping. In a couple minutes, I even asked Niall to elaborate, but I just wanted to at least define it here momentarily. And she'll elaborate a little more, but that just gives you an idea of what shipping is, okay? And okay, back to Niall. Okay, let's just get back to Niall. The ethics of having brands and studios use
00:24:11
Speaker
queen relationships as a way to sell their products and make money. I found that to be very alarming when I first started seeing it on a really large scale corporate commercial level, I would say around early 2018. So this space has been something I've had my eye on for a long time. Once the news of the lawsuit broke,
00:24:36
Speaker
In January 2022, I felt like there was finally a way into the story you know for so long I had really known that we would need whistleblowers to be able to open up about their firsthand experiences you know it seems so
00:24:50
Speaker
so icky and concerning to me from the outside perspective. But that's me from the outside looking in. And I knew that we would need people coming from the inside out to be willing to tell their stories in order to really get, to make it worthwhile as an endeavor and to do justice, obviously, to the story as
Tween Influencer Industry Evolution
00:25:11
Speaker
well. So when the news of that broke, I remember I got the deadline article when it was like a Friday night, I think, and I was having drinks with some friends and I was
00:25:20
Speaker
freaking out because I was like you know this is the moment for this story to kind of finally break through and come to life and I felt like I would finally be able to tell it so you know I approached Sarah with a lot of enthusiasm about this this story in particular but also this world and this you know I think depth of knowledge of the space and the history behind it and the dynamics and the nuance and the layers that led us to the place that we are today that is not a place that we
00:25:49
Speaker
just came to, you know, there were a lot of things that, you know, there were precursors to Piper, there were girls that came before Piper, there are girls that will come after, but I think we need to understand that pipeline and the evolution of this industry in order to understand the story, you know, that I'm telling in this article specifically.
00:26:07
Speaker
And for those who don't know what ships are shipping is in the context of your story, why don't you like kind of define that term and what it means? Sorry. Um, yeah, I mean, ship, so it comes from the word, word relationship, obviously. And it's sort of this, you know, idea of a fandom wanting to
00:26:28
Speaker
individuals together. It starts with characters. You know, you have two characters in a show that you have that kind of will-they-won't-they relationship with. You know, you see it as far back as, you know, I mean way far back, but you see it in Friends. You see it in, you know, all the kind of classic sitcoms. There's always, you know, two people on screen that maybe the fandom wants to end up together or is rooting for or rooting against. The idea of ships specifically is, you know, something that's kind of come out of the social media era.
00:26:56
Speaker
and specifically usually is talking about tweens or teens in the sense of, you know, there being these creators that people want together. They often end up having these like portmando names, you know, a la Brangelina. You know, one of one of the early ones that I mentioned in the piece was, you know, Hayden Summerall and Annie Leblanc who now goes by Jules, but, you know, at the time,
00:27:20
Speaker
They were known as Hani, and they did a lot of filming together. They promoted products together. They posted social media, Instagrams, YouTube videos. They worked at the time doing covers, musical covers, music videos, all of that together. They were singing romantic songs.
00:27:39
Speaker
posting hearts and you know the fandom really caught on to that and you know would would be hashtagging hanny and there were all of these you know edits being made by fans and accounts dedicated specifically to you know looking at any time these two individuals you know were seen in public together or did they hug in this one clip or did they hold hands here or what was happening in this moment and
00:28:03
Speaker
That was one of the early examples of ships as becoming its own living and breathing phenomenon.
00:28:11
Speaker
Yeah, and given that you were following this since 2018 or so, and then it wasn't until the 2020 lawsuit breaks, and then you're able to run with it in a way that you weren't able to before. And I think that really speaks to sometimes we have to be really patient and sit back and wait on stories and pursuing certain stories.
00:28:36
Speaker
That's a that's a unique muscle to develop. So can you just maybe speak to having having some patience and letting things play out before you kind of jump the gun and have this pitch before you really know that there's a true animating force behind it as much as you want there to be one. Yeah, it's so it can be so hard. But I'm I'm a really firm believer that there's a moment for every story. I say this with every you know, I do a lot of
00:29:04
Speaker
obviously journalism, but also talking series and documentary work as well. And I'm a really big believer in the idea that there is always a right moment for a story to be told and that it will come together. And sometimes that does require patience, but I think it's, you want what's best for the people involved in that story. And it's not always about when I want to tell the story. It's sometimes you have to let the story figure out when it is ready to be told.
Journalist's Role and Story Timing
00:29:33
Speaker
and see your place as a journalist as kind of being that bridge between the people whose story it is and the public and when that right moment to bridge that gap is.
00:29:46
Speaker
And it takes a lot of, I think, working with the people involved and, you know, following the story and giving it time to breathe and giving yourself trying to have conversations with people and really figure out when something is going to have the most impact, but also in the best and healthiest way for everybody involved in a story like this.
00:30:08
Speaker
And as you're being patient and waiting for a story to have its moment, you obviously have to be cognizant of having irons and other fires just to make a go of it and make a living. So at any given moment, how many ideas and stories do you have in various forms or phases of production? I have a pretty, because I run my own production company,
00:30:34
Speaker
I have a slate of I'd say between, you know, seven to 10 projects that I'm working on at any given time. Of course, at various stages. You know, I just had a series dropped in January called Death in the Dorms on Hulu. You know, that was something I was working on for a long time, but also had a whole team working on the production of that with me. This has been something I've been working on for a long time, obviously.
00:30:58
Speaker
you know, I have projects right now that are in early stages of development just at the point of, you know, I'm starting to reach out to people and make introductions and, you know, gauge the feasibility of telling those stories. I have, you know, projects that are at the point of, okay, we're putting together materials to go and, you know, find partners or networks or, you know, publishers.
00:31:19
Speaker
or A&I projects that are actually actively in production being made, whether they're being written or produced at any given moment. So I'm a pretty full slate, but I would say that it's always moving and it's always at different stages and different pieces moving at different moments.
00:31:38
Speaker
I think that speaks to a lot of freelancer types that might have a lot of different types of projects going at the same time. Certain things like a long-form journalistic piece might not be as monetarily lucrative as even just like a content marketing piece or whatever.
00:31:56
Speaker
these little fiefdoms going on in anybody's day. It can be hard to juggle and keep organized. Do you have any insights or tips for anyone who might struggle with organizing multiple projects that cross disciplines?
00:32:12
Speaker
I'm a huge, I'm an organization nerd. I'm very big on organization. I am a huge Google drive person. I use spreadsheets for everything. So every single project I work on, my first step is to create a massive spreadsheet that has a tab for characters.
00:32:33
Speaker
that includes name, description, location, any contact info, call notes, outreach notes. Then I have a tab that's usually articles, that's headlines, description, links, authors, publications. I have a tab that is for video or audio. If it's a documentary, that's usually very important. It's collecting whatever material we have on the archive.
00:32:55
Speaker
And I usually start with that as, you know, just like to wrap my head around the story, figure out who is going to be important, what materials are out there already, what, you know, lines of inquiry I need to be following. And that helps a lot. And that, you know, I think has
00:33:10
Speaker
you know, been a good system for me, but I think you also have to figure out the system that works best for you. There's a lot of different programs. There's a lot of different organizational tools. I happen to be a spreadsheet person. Not everyone is going to be. You know, I'm a Google Doc person. I know not everyone is. I think Sarah said she is not a Google Doc person. So, you know, we all have
00:33:32
Speaker
We all have our kind of systems, but I think you do need a system and everyone needs to figure out what's going to make the most sense for the way that they work and also the story that they're telling.
00:33:44
Speaker
that the approach that they're wanting to take. But for me, it's really about kind of creating these silos of, okay, I had this story, you know, this is all the information for that. That can all be kind of catalogs in one place and then moving on to another story and usually those build out into larger folders. But for me, it's just really about compartmentalizing the information so that as I'm switching between
00:34:06
Speaker
you know, one story to the next. It wouldn't make sense, for example, for me to have one Google Doc of, you know, here are all the spreadsheets. I like to organize by story so that I have all the information, you know, spreadsheets, materials, call notes, all in one place per story. That allows me to kind of jump from story to story without getting confused.
00:34:26
Speaker
moving on to your piece in more detail.
Exploitation and Regulation in Entertainment
00:34:33
Speaker
What struck me about it too, there was a certain timelessness to this too, because you can go back to child actors and how they've been exploited over the years, Judy Garland and everything. And it's something that has been with us and specifically in this country. I imagine elsewhere, but it seems uniquely American.
00:34:51
Speaker
that goes back decades and decades and decades. And just the medium has changed, be it Vaudeville on stage or movies, and now it's moving to internet and social media. So just what do you make of that as the backdrop of this piece?
00:35:09
Speaker
I think it certainly is. I mean, that's what really struck me and how I've described this story to many people is, you know, it is like when Shirley Temple was working and, you know, the fact that she was exploited in various ways and there had to be all of these laws put in place, you know, because you have Jackie Coogan and the Coogan law for a reason, you know.
00:35:30
Speaker
All of these laws that are put in place to protect child actors are based on the fact that child actors were being exploited. Unfortunately, I think, like you said, especially in America, that tends to be the way our legal system works with regulation. When we see problems, then regulation comes in to try to rectify something. And that's what we saw with Shirley Temple and Julie Garland and Jackie Coogan and all of these
00:35:56
Speaker
child actors that ended up having their money stolen or you know being abused and being exploited in various ways you know and they they created the law so that now when you go on you know a big movie set that has child actors there are tutors on set and there are very very strict laws i mean i i grew up in la my dad the cameraman i grew up on set a lot and
00:36:15
Speaker
It's very clear, you know, that it's a professional environment and something that the people take very seriously because they don't want to get in trouble with the child labor law violations. And so, you know, there are tutors, there are very strict guidelines on how many hours kids can work. And, you know, if they haven't met their school hours, then they can't be on set. And if they go over a certain time, then they have to leave. They're very strict and careful about that because the laws are taken very seriously.
00:36:43
Speaker
What we're seeing now is that social media and the internet and YouTube digital content has created this space that, you know, I say it in my piece and, you know, other people have said it too, that it is this Wild West environment where, you know, we're kind of back to that time where, you know, unfortunately, I think there are going to have to be cases that like this and there are going to have to be lawsuits like this.
00:37:07
Speaker
that end up creating enough momentum to put in place laws that protect kids in these situations because right now, you know, we're kind of, I think, in that time and in that moment that we had with Shirley Temple and Julie Garland and Jackie Coogan where they were working during a time where the laws were not put in place and then they were put in place because of them. I really think that that's exactly where we are right now with social media and digital content creation.
00:37:33
Speaker
Yeah. And the main term of this is like kid fluencers. And it's these kids and tweens who have box opening things, be it for toys or clothes or makeup or you name it. So maybe for those who might not be as familiar with this world as you are, given that you've been immersed in it for a few, or just in terms of the research immersed in it,
00:37:58
Speaker
for a few years that you know what the the kid fluencing landscape looks like.
00:38:05
Speaker
Yeah, it's a really interesting one. I mean, I think people want to see themselves reflected in the content they are watching.
Children as Decision-Makers in Content
00:38:13
Speaker
We watch Bravo at Real Housewives and reality shows for a reason. They feel relatable in a certain way. Obviously, there's either an outrageous or an aspirational element to a lot of those shows. But at the end of the day, we know someone like those people. We can relate in some way, which is why I think we are often attracted to those types of
00:38:35
Speaker
of programming in the same way kids kids don't want to watch that type of stuff you know they want to watch kids they want to see their own reality you know in some way in an aspirational way oftentimes with these unboxings reflected on screen you know I think it makes sense that that's the type of content that they would want to see
00:38:54
Speaker
The difference that we've seen really in the past decade is that the kids have become more and more the decision makers behind what content they're watching. I think with the introduction of the iPad and then with the integration of the iPad in schools especially, it really became seen as this tool and is a tool in many ways. It has a lot of positives I think for children
00:39:18
Speaker
But the more that kids were being given iPads and given free reign to make those decisions of what content they're watching, the more and more they were gravitating towards content that reflected, that had other kids and was being made not just for kids, but by kids. We as adults can guess all day long what a teenager is going to want to watch, but who knows better than another teenager? You have channels like Brat that really capitalized on that YouTube space.
00:39:46
Speaker
and the fact that these teenagers were becoming the decision makers in terms of the content. That I think is kind of what has shifted there, is that we've seen kids really have more access. I mean, I say this in the piece, this is the first generation that will never not know life without the internet.
00:40:07
Speaker
I'm a millennial. I remember when, you know, I got a phone. I remember when I got Instagram in college, you know, all of those things. And it's just not the same for kids now. The integration and the way that they are, you know, have technology as just a part of their lives is something that I don't think we can fully understand.
00:40:26
Speaker
But what we do know is that they're very, very powerful. It's a really big demographic. And especially with YouTube, and especially with the iPad, we have seen them become incredibly powerful. And the more powerful they are, the more that brands and platforms are going to market towards that demographic. They see that they are generating not only views, but they're buying things. They're buying concert tickets. They're having their parents buy the merch, all of these things that are things that companies and capitalism cares about.
00:40:57
Speaker
Who has to be the adult in the room going forward with this? It's a really good question because I think what we've learned, unfortunately, is that we would like to think that parents are going to protect the best interest of their children, but that is not always the case. Again, that's why we have the Coogan law. Jackie Coogan had, his parents basically stole all of his money from him.
00:41:22
Speaker
And unfortunately, that kind of stuff does happen. And so I think there certainly needs to be better regulation. But the question is who? Like I said, when you show up on a film set, you have a tutor. You have people that are monitoring kids. There has to be a guardian. There has to be eyes on a child at all times. And those are things that are enforced by the people on set because they don't want to get in trouble with the law. And they don't want to get in trouble with the labor board.
00:41:51
Speaker
you walk onto what YouTube said, it's really not the same thing, you know, you don't have, it's just not that big of an operation. So you can also understand why, you know, it would, in theory, be pretty impossible for a labor board to, you know, to oversee all of it. But there certainly needs to be, especially in California and Los Angeles, where this is happening more frequently, and you have, you know, kids that are
00:42:14
Speaker
living in content houses and coming out here to pursue careers in this and then becoming the sole source of income for their families. I mean, there are a lot of dynamics here that I think we need to unpack. And unfortunately, I'd love to think that we could leave it up to the individual families.
00:42:31
Speaker
But what we've seen is that's just not the case. And right now, I mean, I think you see this in the piece that, you know, it's very hard for a parent to stand up when they, you know, against this type of thing. And if they do see problems to really get support for that. And so, yes, I think this lawsuit is a major step forward. The fact that, you know, it's gotten the attention of the labor board is a huge deal, but we haven't really seen yet what is going to come
00:42:55
Speaker
of that and what type of regulations and oversight could be put in. But I do think there needs to be some sort of another layer of oversight from a legal standpoint that would be able to hold these types of people accountable or else you're creating an environment where kids are just going to continue to be abused. I mean, it's easy to see how this happens.
Jana Ramirez's Story and Industry Manipulation
00:43:17
Speaker
Yeah, and Jana Ramirez is at the heart of this as sort of the conscience of this piece, and you get a real sense of her desperation as how the kid-fluencing landscape really cuts both ways.
00:43:35
Speaker
be very lucrative to a lot of people and it built a platform, but it also is at the root of basically the dissolving of her own family. And it was really heartbreaking to read her as the beating heart of this piece, the conscious of this piece. That's exactly how I feel. I think her story serves as a really good kind of surrogate for the reader in the sense that
00:44:03
Speaker
You know, I understand from her perspective how this happened. You know, I see it. They came in, you know, as professional, her kids were professional actors. They were doing commercials. I mean, her daughter was performing in theater productions. This came through LA casting, like, you know, any other job you'd apply for in LA. And, you know, by the time she kind of figured out what was going on, it in many ways was too late.
00:44:32
Speaker
I think, you know, it brings in a lot of questions also about, you know, teenagers. I mean, people, you know, one of the things people have asked me after reading the piece is like, who is, you know, how is this happening? Like, who is enforcing this? Who is keeping her from her family?
00:44:47
Speaker
you know the unfortunate part of business to some extent is her you know her her kids are not little kids anymore they are teenagers and you know they they are to some extent you know have a right of course to express their opinions on this type of thing but at the same time when you're 15 and you're making you know
00:45:04
Speaker
40K a month making videos on YouTube with all of your friends. That's a pretty attractive deal. You know, I certainly understand why you wouldn't want to leave that. I mean, I have a lot of, I have a ton of empathy and understanding for these kids that are involved in this situation. I mean, how do you leave that behind? Who, what kid on earth would not want that to be their life? I mean, literally.
00:45:25
Speaker
So, but that's why, you know, it's your job as a parent to sometimes tell your kid that they might want to do something, but they can't, or, you know, they, it's something that they want to do is not the best thing for them. And so it, you know, it just, it's really hard to see a parent really trying to fight for what they believe is best and what, you know, there's, there's evidence to support that. And just not only be shut out by her family, but also be shut out by the law. I mean, it seems, you know,
00:45:54
Speaker
you know, crazy in some ways that there hasn't been.
00:45:59
Speaker
more of a full 360 degree picture taken of the situation. It seems like the legal side has been very focused on, you know, this is kind of what the son wants and that's the way that it's going to stay. He has all this money at stake and like, okay, well, but also like his, there's more at stake than just money here and money shouldn't be the only thing that we're caring about when it comes to child safety and protection online. Just because they're making money shouldn't mean that they should
00:46:29
Speaker
all of these safety things should just go away. There has to be a balance of that. And if there are parents who are in this world and it hasn't gone as south or sideways as some of the instances they use site intel in this piece, how does it go south for people who are in this ecosystem?
00:46:55
Speaker
I think you see in the piece this real kind of systematic separation of the kids and the parents and this idea that the kids loyalty is to the people who are running these YouTube channels and the group
00:47:10
Speaker
and the people who are their employers, essentially, instead of, you know, the integrity in their family. And I think that's the first red flag that I really see. You know, when I hear Jana's story, the main, those first things I really, I see in her story are the times where, you know, she was asked to step out of the room so that they could film without her when she was told, you know, the kids do better without the parents around. That to me, those are big red flags because that says,
00:47:40
Speaker
that is very different than a commercial set or a professional movie set. That is quite the opposite of what you would see on a set like that for a variety of reasons. And I think, as a parent, even if it's uncomfortable, you have to kind of wedge yourself into those situations. But yeah, I mean, it's a hard,
00:48:01
Speaker
It's hard because I I understand, you know, I think in this in this case Johnna saw those red flags and you know There wasn't really much she could do about it at that point and she didn't want to be the the crazy helicopter parent and you know when Social pressure is you know Not only all the kids but also on the parents when you go in into a situation and you know you have all these other families and you're the only mom that seems concerned about what's going on and
00:48:27
Speaker
It's easy to feel like, wow, I'm being overprotective. I'm being a helicopter parent. I'm being dramatic. Maybe I am overdoing it. And so I think it's very easy to second-guess yourself. That would be my main kind of thing is you can't really second-guess yourself because there is an escalation and there is a pathway. Even if it doesn't seem, those red flags itself are not the problem, but they can lead to other things. And it can be the first indication that there are problems that are going
00:48:57
Speaker
gonna come. There's something very dystopian about this too. Like how, you know, Jana here, she is that one voice of reason and even like dystopic novels, there's usually that one person who can see what's happening and no one, everyone else has been so corrupted by whatever system that they're
00:49:17
Speaker
bowing down to and it's like they are powerless to do anything about it and the sad thing is that ultimately sometimes they just relent to the turbulent waters that is this corrupt system. They're powerless to stop it.
00:49:31
Speaker
Yeah, that's very much it. And I think that's, you know, I'm happy that that comes across in the piece because Johna certainly, she didn't want to like go public with this story. You know, it was very, all of that was very hard and very complicated. She is desperate and she feels like she has been put in a position where she's tried to do everything. You know, she's gone the legal route. She's tried to connect with her son. She really feels like she,
00:49:56
Speaker
You know, like you said, is that dystopian character screaming into the void? Like someone please pay attention to what is happening. I mean, you know, we say it in the piece, but this was supposed to be a temporary arrangement that has now been, you know,
00:50:09
Speaker
over a year later and you know no sign of there being a permanent decision to be made and every single day she's not spending time with her kids you know and she knows that and she knows this time is time she's never going to get back so that real sense of urgency and just absolute you know every single day waking up and it being a nightmare is you know that is her reality it is she is living in a dystopian you know novel right now and
00:50:38
Speaker
It's incredibly scary and incredibly heartbreaking, but also I think very relatable. And she does kind of serve as that everyday person that you can also kind of see this outsider perspective and not know how to kind of pull someone out when you're standing on the edge of a tornado.
00:50:57
Speaker
At the start of our conversation, you mentioned what Joshua Beerman did really well about balancing investigative work and storytelling, and I think you do that extremely well in this piece, where an investigative piece might feel more like just a
Balancing Journalism and Narrative Craft
00:51:14
Speaker
here's just the information, you know, in whatever chronology you choose. But this does have some more, those storytelling beats that we come to know with out of his stories and very well crafted ones. So when you're crafting a piece of this nature, how do you strike that balance between the investigative work, but also trying to write a good yarn? Yeah, I'm always looking for characters and like scenes, I would say. So I'm always, you know, for me, it's all about
00:51:42
Speaker
Who is the reader going to identify with? Whose story are they going to relate to the most? Who has the story that is really going to tug on those heartstrings as well? Figuring out the characters is always my step one. You can have a really great story, but if you don't have characters that the viewers or readers are going to care about and want to root for and relate to,
00:52:06
Speaker
and I think it can be very tough to sell them on a story. So for me it's you know big about characters and then also about these scenes these moments you know that um I mean maybe that's because I come from a doc background as well but you know I'm always thinking of of these these moments and interactions and you know not just laying out this happened this happened this happened and and that's something I think say where it is really
00:52:28
Speaker
brought out and pushed me to do as well as you know I've done a lot more of that like kind of traditional reporting style in the past but what's great about out of this is they give you the room to kind of create these these moments that you can live in and sit in as a reader and
00:52:44
Speaker
and be there and be like really along the journey with them and so I think you see that you know pretty pretty well in the piece you know the way these things unfold but but it's not just from a perspective of this happened this happened this happened but also how those characters feel and move through those experiences and and you know what what that felt like at that time and I think that's what what can get a reader to really care about a story and really you know the type of thing that makes someone
00:53:15
Speaker
finish a piece and go online to research or write an email to the people involved or reach out or share their own story. That to me is the point of this type of journalism is to motivate people to care about it. And I think the way you get people to care about it is to really have them go on that journey along with the people in the story.
00:53:39
Speaker
And I love hearing how writers or reporters go about structure and being edited. And, you know, over the course of this piece, what was the idea behind the scaffolding that you laid down for this piece and also just the editing dialogue to make it as good as it is?
00:54:00
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it was an interesting process because I very much approached the piece originally from a bit more of a bird's eye view perspective and I, you know, had kind of looked at multiple of these different stories and weaved them together and
00:54:17
Speaker
In talking to say word and just talking to, you know, all of the sources for this piece over many months, you know, I really felt like Jana's story is the stakes, you know, I hate to say this, but it is in some ways like the worst case scenario for these other people. This is why, you know, all the parents in the lawsuit are trying to not be drawn up.
00:54:39
Speaker
are afraid of having their family torn apart by this situation. And so, you know, I think for me, it really just struck me as a way to give the viewer someone to hold on to and I think someone that the reader is going to really relate to and understand and can be that surrogate.
00:54:58
Speaker
You know, for me, it evolved. It really started out as being kind of three different moms and their stories interweaving and the interaction of them. And, you know, all of that is still in the final piece. But, you know, Whit's Day Words helped me really kind of restructure it to focus more on Jana and her journey through this world. Because we felt like it was the most compelling, but also the most kind of stakes setting, which is always important.
00:55:26
Speaker
And when I was in, I would say the age of some of these kids that are featured here in these various videos, it was mid-90s-ish. And at that time, it was these sort of bubblegum-colored magazines, and it would be like, who's
00:55:46
Speaker
All these little things like who's who's with each other who's not all that little drama and all that all that stuff and so that's always been around and You know, this is just the kind of like a new medium. So yeah, I don't know What would you say that you know stuff of this nature says about our our culture today?
00:56:06
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think it's this specific way. I think the difference, you know, because me too, and this is something that I think about a lot and thought about a lot when writing these pieces.
Social Media and Parasocial Relationships
00:56:16
Speaker
None of these things are new. You know, everyone's always had crushes. Yes, maybe the term ship is new, but you know, there was always like, oh, I really, you know, that popular girl, that guy, those two people should be together. You know, you watch shows and you were like, oh, I think, you know,
00:56:31
Speaker
I mean, it's Cory and Topanga on Boy Meets World. Of course, we've always loved this stuff. I think Justin Timberlake and Britney Spears, too, in the early 2000s, you're like, oh, all right, that sounds interesting. Totally. I think the main difference, and this is, I think, overall what we're seeing is that the barrier between celebrities and regular people and the barrier between movies and film and acting and everyday life is really breaking down.
00:57:01
Speaker
First of all, it's not just like, oh, I, you know, Wednesday after school, I'm gonna rush home to watch the new episode of Laguna Beach, you know, or the hills. It is, okay, this new vlog dropped from this, you know, creator I like who's like another teenager like me who, you know, is putting a YouTube video that I'm now watching, you know, in the lunch room or in the bathroom at school or laying in my bed on demand. So the accessibility that you're having to these people on screen
00:57:31
Speaker
is just completely different than you've ever had before. It's different than going to a movie and sitting in a movie chair and watching an actress on screen and being like, she seems like someone I would relate to, you know, and seeing them in tabloids. You're getting a much smaller picture of these people. Today with, you know, the internet and social media and YouTube and vlogging, and especially with influencers, I mean, the whole kind of appeal of influencers is that you are getting the behind the scenes.
00:57:57
Speaker
you're getting more than you would get with an average celebrity. And so with that access though, increases these parasocial relationships. So you feel like you know these people and you feel invested in these people's lives in a way that you are not with an average celebrity. I mean, people care about average celebrities, but I think there's a ferocity and I feel like I know this person in a way that you do not typically get with an average celebrity. And on the flip side,
00:58:27
Speaker
You see that with these kids, you know? I mean, that's, to me, one of the big issues you see with crushes and ships. You know, these are things that typically happen in a lunch room. You know, I remember in middle school having my friends come up to me and say, you know, this kid likes you. And you're like, I've never thought about that kid before. But all of a sudden, you're thinking about it. You're like, he's kind of cute. Maybe I do like him. And you know, you get these things planted in your head.
00:58:53
Speaker
That's a lot different when then it's an adult who is going to profit off of that putting that in your ear. And so those, you know, it's really the kind of commercialization of these, these very natural and normal occurrences.
00:59:08
Speaker
but in a way that we, you know, having the adults also influence these things in a way. And then what I was going to say is on the flip side, you know, you have the kids as well. You have these actors who are, you know, it's a lot different than a traditional actor where you're being hired to play a role and you're going on set and you're playing that role and then they stay cut and you go home and you're back to your normal life.
00:59:33
Speaker
the line between when you're acting and you're not acting for these kids is very unclear and so okay is it a ship for the cameras but at a certain point when you know you're 13 and you're being told to kiss and hug and hold hands with a kid you know and pretend to be in a relationship with them and sometimes feelings are going to get involved so
00:59:53
Speaker
The lines between all of these things, I think, have increasingly broken down with the rise of social media and influence or culture. So we don't have that traditional separation between art and life, between reality and fiction. It's all kind of blurred now in a way that can be very, very dangerous for these types of situations.
01:00:12
Speaker
Yeah, I think the elephant in the room too is the fact that it's internet based is that it just leaves everybody open to like a lot of like creeps out there, pedophiles and everything of that nature.
01:00:24
Speaker
Well, it's to anyone, you know, it's that accessibility the same way that you might have a middle schooler laying in bed or watching, you know, these these videos that could be, you know, you don't know who is watching those things. And yes, you might want to say that the target audience is other teens, but you have to know that this is what's happening.
01:00:43
Speaker
we you know you hear a lot about these you know photos and images ending up in places that you know of course they're not intended to be but as a parent you know i think we're in general as a society having a lot of conversations right now about mommy vlogging and the safety of you know showing your kids on the internet because you really can't control yes you're posting a photo of your you know two-year-old
01:01:06
Speaker
in the tub to your followers, but if your Instagram profile is public, anyone can see that. You might think your YouTube channel is only reaching a small audience, but anyone can see those things. Anyone can take a screenshot or a video grab, and that video can end up anywhere. And yes, again, maybe that is not the intention, but if you know you are putting your child, in this case, your teenager,
01:01:33
Speaker
very small outfits in very compromising positions and situations where they're talking about sexuality and relationships. You know, it is inevitable that it's going to attract people that you don't want watching that content. And are you willing to take that risk for followers and money? That is, you know, that's really the question. And I think we'd all love to think that the parents would be responsible enough to not want that, but this shows that it's not as cut and dry as that awaits.
01:02:02
Speaker
Very nice. Well, Niall, as I like to bring these conversations down for a landing, I don't know if we did this last time we spoke, we might have, but I like asking guests for a recommendation of some kind for the listener out there. So I don't know if you've been able to give that any thought, but it would be nice to get a recommendation from you. It could be anything from a book to a brand of socks you're really excited about. Oh my God, I love that.
01:02:26
Speaker
I recently watched, I just want to make sure I get the title right. Okay, so I recently watched Vatican Girl, The Disappearance of Emanuela Orlandi on Netflix. And it is, I'm like, I studied Italian in college. So it's sort of the exact intersection of like all of these dynamics I love. But
01:02:46
Speaker
It reminds me a lot of Ryan White's The Keepers, which is one of my favorite docu-series of all time, and it just really, the, you know, ability to bring us into this world of the Vatican that I think you so rarely get a view into as an American, and as, you know, an American that's particularly interested in Italy, I just found it to be an incredible story and a really worthwhile one, and that Emanuela Orlandi is
01:03:12
Speaker
someone that we all should know. You know, she, as a character person, she really struck me as someone that I, you know, I felt almost guilty that I didn't know her story beforehand. And so anyone that I think, you know, anyone I can get to learn about her and learn about this case, I think, should. So that would be my recommendation. Fantastic. Well, Niall, this was great to catch up again. And I get to talk about this really illuminating piece that you wrote for the next activist. So thanks so much for the time and for coming on the show again.
01:03:42
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me. It's always a pleasure. I really appreciate the conversation. Thanks for listening to CNF and thanks to Nyle and Sayward. What a privilege to talk to those two. If you like this conversation as much as I did, and I did, consider sharing it and tagging me and the show at CNF Pod on Twitter or at Creative Nonfiction Podcast on Instagram.
01:04:08
Speaker
In any case, consider heading to patreon.com slash cnfpot to throw a few bucks into the tip jar. The show is free, but it sure as hell ain't cheap, and you can always reach against the algorithm with my up to 11 monthly newsletter by heading to brendadomare.com.
01:04:24
Speaker
As many of you- Okay, no, strike that. As some of you know, I usually have something of a parting shot here. Call it a blog post, call it whatever, call it whatever bullshit I'm dealing with. And I just append to the show, I guess. As a way of just getting some stuff off my chest and my way of maybe relating to you or making you feel a little less crummy by telling you how crummy I feel on an almost daily basis.
01:04:51
Speaker
I put it at the end of the show because I'm not a monster. But since there's another pod coming in hot this Friday, I'm going to cut this short. I might have some news to share. Then again, I might not. If you know, you know, who knows anymore. So stay wild, CNFers. And if you can't do interview, see ya.
01:05:24
Speaker
you