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What’s needed to stop avian flu outbreak in cattle, poultry
5 Playsin 8 hours
Kay Russo, DVM, partner, RSM Consulting, joins Elizabeth Doughman, editor, WATT PoultryUSA, to discuss the U.S. Department of Agriculture’s (USDA) response to the avian influenza outbreak in poultry and dairy cattle, the risk of disease spillover to humans and what actions are most likely to stop the spread of the virus.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Future of Poultry podcast series.
00:00:12
Speaker
Hello, I'm Elizabeth Duffman, the editor of Watt Poultry USA and Poultry Future. In today's episode, my guest is Kay Russo, DVM, partner at RSM Consulting. As I'm sure many listeners are aware, the current HPAI outbreak has devastated the US poultry industry with the largest impact felt in turkeys and lairs. Avian influenza has also been detected recently in dairy cattle and people associated with poultry and dairy farms.
00:00:39
Speaker
Thanks for joining us to talk about avian influenza, Kay. Thank
Discovery of Avian Influenza in Dairy Cattle
00:00:43
Speaker
you for the opportunity. To start, how did you discover that avian influenza was infecting dairy cows? Well, it started back in in March for me. Ultimately, there was a sort of mystery disease circulating in dairy cattle in Texas. And it started sort of in the January, February timeframe. And i you know I got pulled into it in March. I was a clinical dairy veterinarian for several years. And later in life, you know I went back and pursued training. and
00:01:15
Speaker
a board certification in poultry medicine. So one would say that never really seemed relevant until this whole debacle. But but anyways, I got a call one day, hey, hey, will you call Dr. Barb Peterson in the panhandles? She's one of the clinical veterinarians down there and and see if you can offer any assistance.
00:01:33
Speaker
so you know I called her and or texted back and forth, I should say, and we kind of talked and the symptoms weren't like anything we'd really ever seen clinically.
Symptom Investigation and Testing
00:01:43
Speaker
All the the usual tests were coming up negative. and you know so so I got to wondering with the symptoms as they were, ah we had digestive symptoms, respiratory symptoms, we had mastitis. I got to thinking,
00:01:58
Speaker
We've had influenza jump into a number of different species, particularly H5N1, in this last two years, and I suggested to Barb that maybe this is something that we ought to look for. And serendipitously later that day, I got a call from another individual I used to work with when I was in practice, and he says, hey, will you talk to Dr. Nick Schneider, who's another veterinarian,
00:02:22
Speaker
down the panhandle and so i said okay i said but erin i think i think this might be flu i think we should look into this and immediately dr schneider called me he said you think this could be flu and i said yeah i said what are the birds doing on the farm and and he said you know i've noticed a lot of them are dead i said what he said well i figured they were poisoned And so immediately we all sort of started texting and I suggested that they pick up some of those birds and test them for H5N1. And so Dr. Barb submitted some birds and they came back positive for H5N1. And so at that point, you know, I started to run around like kind of a frazzle Paul Revere and I was emailing vets and regulatory bodies like NBSL and CDC because at the same time we were seeing humans that were demonstrating symptoms.
Regulatory Inaction and Spread of H5N1
00:03:11
Speaker
and you know Everything I was reading in the literature, it was 50 percent mortality rate in human cases worldwide. and I'm thinking, oh my gosh, you know if this is truly H5 in cattle and we're seeing you know humans, like what are we dealing with here? Then we started to see cats on the farms that were neurologic. and so After the the birds tested positive, ah Bart got one of her buddies at Iowa State to run flu tests on the milk and some cats.
00:03:39
Speaker
And that was our first positive. And truly, it was a scary time. I mean, these vets had sick people. They had cows, birds, cats that were neurologic on the farms. And there were really only a handful of us that knew that this could be H5.
00:03:53
Speaker
And we really didn't know what the regulatory agencies were going to do. And, you know, this announcement came out on a Monday after the test was confirmed by the National Labs. And we're all bracing, but, you know, the agencies really didn't do anything. And that's when it really sort of took off
Research Initiatives and Regulatory Differences
00:04:11
Speaker
the virus. And and we started mobilizing as a small group. and submitting samples for testing to various researchers to sort of start to piece this puzzle together in the absence of any guidance, which was really the first data that was generated on flu and and cattle. So I know it was running on a bit, but but it's really kind of ah an interesting story. maybe Maybe there will be a movie about it someday. Who knows?
00:04:35
Speaker
Now I have to ask who you want to play you in a movie. You know, we thought about this jokingly in the beginning. Have you ever seen Home Alone 2 in New York? You know that crazy pigeon lady? I said I want her to play me if she's still alive. So we'll see.
00:04:53
Speaker
so Are there any differences in how avian influenza presents in poultry versus dairy cows? Both species, as as we've seen in the last 10 months or so, have an appreciable morbidity rate. That means a lot of the population that gets infected gets sick. However, in poultry, there's also this high mortality rate, meaning a lot of them die.
00:05:15
Speaker
And on the dairy side, the herds that are infected over time will return to normal production, relatively speaking. However, they're often on average a couple of pounds, if not more, below where they were before or where they should be.
00:05:31
Speaker
And if we look at sort of cull rates, so sending cows to slaughter due to lack of production, those are variable after, and during and after infection. And that has to do, I think, in part to management conditions, weather, other factors that can exacerbate the disease state. and Ultimately, there's been this narrative that sort of started in the beginning of all this. that This is a virus that only infects lactating cows, and it's only combined to the utter of those cows. And I don't think that narrative is aging well. We're finding this virus in multiple organ tissues of these animals.
00:06:06
Speaker
We've seen seroconversion, so antibodies in non-lactating animals. so It's interesting, but you know if we look at the disease in the two different populations, essentially, where it really gets interesting is looking at it from a regulatory standpoint. Now, in poultry, this this disease, this virus, is a foreign animal disease.
00:06:29
Speaker
And so it requires depopulation to slow the regional spread of the virus. Now, this is the same virus in dairy cattle, but ultimately it's not been managed that way. And so what we've seen is this sort of ballooning regional spread of the virus because we're not controlling it. And and that's been exemplified in areas like California in the last couple months.
00:06:54
Speaker
So it's it's remarkable that the same virus in two different animal agriculture classes has such a different regulatory playbook. That's so interesting. In a perfect world, what do you think the poultry and dairy industry should do to to slow the spread of avian influenza?
Strategies for Managing Avian Influenza
00:07:11
Speaker
That's a big question, and I think the answer to this lies in sort of this three-legged stool analogy, if you will. The first leg is keeping the outside out, and that's basically biosecurity. And then the second leg is keeping the inside in, so an infected
00:07:30
Speaker
hurts or flocks is quarantining. It's in the case of poultry, quarantining and stamping it out. and Then the third leg of that stool is improving the protection of the host, so that animal that could get infected. and so If we look at biosecurity, which is where a lot of the emphasis has been, you know we have conceptual biosecurity, structural biosecurity, procedural biosecurity, these all mean different things.
00:07:58
Speaker
and And we do need to stay on top of biosecurity but because there can be procedural drift over time with with any group of workers. You know you do things day in and day out. you know Ultimately the procedure ends up drifting. so So we do need to stay on top of that. But the inherent problem in my mind here is that we can't really expect poultry farms or dairies to be biosecurity level three facilities.
00:08:25
Speaker
There's theory and and then there's reality. so you know If we look at some of the recent data that I've seen at least, both in the dairy and poultry outbreaks, some of these farms are getting infected, for instance, after high wind events. Everyone tipped toes around this scenario because it's hard to control the wind. right We can't control the weather. But I do think we have to consider things like this because we don't filter the air entering into most poultry facilities like we do in swine, for instance.
00:08:54
Speaker
So this is an access point for the virus, even in the face of good biosecurity. And so that's the first leg. The second leg is quarantine. Don't move animals during quarantine.
Challenges in Quarantine and Biosecurity
00:09:05
Speaker
Shut it down. And in the last 10 months, we've had dairies that are quote unquote quarantine that continue to move animals to slaughter.
00:09:14
Speaker
They move young stock on and off the operation. So really isn't quarantine, right? And then, you know, this is a poultry podcast, but if you have any knowledge of dairy, you'll know that dairies replace 30% of their herd every year. And it's not done all at once. So it's done on a rolling basis. And what does this do with an infected situation? It's constantly adding naive animals into this population which allows that virus to sustain itself. So is it possible for a modern dairy to shut down movement? At this point, I don't think so from a welfare standpoint, but it's come at a huge cost to neighboring facilities. I mean, we've seen spillover to poultry, we've seen spillover to other dairies, I think in part because of this. And then, you know, finally, this three-legged stool, we've got this immune status in the animals.
Vaccination and Critique of USDA's Approach
00:10:07
Speaker
And part of that's good management, air quality, and then this billion dollar topic of vaccination. And it's kind of a contentious issue, but I believe vaccination of poultry and other at-risk species really needs to be considered now and in the immediate future.
00:10:24
Speaker
What are your thoughts on the recent updates to the USDA Poultry Indemnity Program? That's another great question. So, you know, the USDA, I think, is placing all of their eggs into this biosecurity basket, no pun intended for the Poultry Podcast. But, you know, don't get me wrong, you I think biosecurity is essential, but it's really, again, only one leg of that three-legged stool.
00:10:50
Speaker
And, you know, we saw positive shifts between the 2015 outbreak and the current outbreak in the sense that hiding ah biosecurity and stamp rapidly stamping out flots that were infected did in fact reduce lateral spread of the flu between poultry farms. ah Now, most infections, at least up into the point where cattle were infected with this virus, most of the infections are attributed to sort of these point source introductions from waterfowl. That's until you know obviously cattle came on the scene and then that changed the game because They aren't held to the same standards as poultry, so we're again seeing a lot of lateral spread coming from them spilling into the poultry. And, you know, we've got poultry facilities at this point that are damn well biosecure, and they're still getting hit. And so I think focusing on biosecurity alone is really an oversimplification of the H5 problem.
00:11:50
Speaker
And, you know, for the USDA to sort of bear down on that for poultry, given the recent biosecurity audit announcement, it just seems a bit off to me. and And at times like this, it feels like they're trying to mop the seashore, right? And, you know, again, we've seen a lot of spillovers, not only, you know, from cattle to poultry, but also in the peridomestic species. And what I mean by that, I mean like rodents, cats, birds, and we've seen it in domestic pigs.
00:12:18
Speaker
In Oregon, we've seen it in humans. And so what are the role that these spillovers play in this sort of regional viral ecology? It's still yet unclear. And, you know, the risk factors associated with other production animal species like beef cattle and swine up until this point have been largely ignored. So clearly our tactics aren't keeping up necessarily with the virus's new tricks. And the last thing I want to say on this is, the TRAP assembled a task force, an H5 task force that really focuses on driving solutions to address this
Call for Improved Surveillance and Response
00:12:52
Speaker
issue. And they really nailed it when they called for better and more transparent regional surveillance tools for all species. That includes poultry, cows, pigs, horses, domestic animals, and waterfowl.
00:13:05
Speaker
ah They asked for a more consistent risk-based national response, ah more investment in understanding this complex viral ecology I've been talking about, and finally investment and a real intention to actually employ vaccines for all at-risk species and populations. So you You can go online and look up that statement that was drafted by AAAP, but it really summarizes this nicely and where I think the USDA does need to have. Should we even be concerned about avian influenza jumping to people outside the dairy and poultry industries?
Human Risk and Need for Vigilance
00:13:41
Speaker
so That's ah another looming question that's being asked frequently in the news. and
00:13:47
Speaker
The short answer, I think, to that is we do need to stay vigilant. you The individuals that are going to be most at risk are those with direct contact with infected birds and mammals, so dairy and poultry farm workers, backyard bird owners, and those with regular contact with migratory waterfowl, for instance. But with these spillover vents that we're seeing into other species, this virus is kind of casting its net quite a bit wider. And so this may have more impact on the population at large.
00:14:17
Speaker
And you know the CDC says the risk to the general population is still considered low because we haven't seen clinically any human-to-human spread. I've heard of anecdotal spread, but it's not been documented clinically by the CDC. Ultimately, we need to be alert. However, because of this, you know a few minor changes in the genetic sequence of this virus or a more significant change like a reassortment event between an individual that's infected with a human flu strain and say H5 that they picked up from a theory cow, that will result in a rapid change, a rapid change to the properties of the virus and the risk to the population. so CDC says for workers that are at risk, get your seasonal flu shot. This helps to avoid one of those major reassortment risks. And if we look at the populations that are currently most impacted,
00:15:12
Speaker
of their rural populations. And and at the start of this, it was damn hard to get a rural health system to even consider the possibility of H5 infections in humans. I spent one afternoon on the phone trying to find a clinic in rural Texas that would test workers with even a rapid flu influenza A test last March, and it came up short. And so as we look at this and we monitor this over time, these point of care tests,
00:15:41
Speaker
but at the local level are going to be crucial to identifying cases early and identifying cases before we see a major shift in human infections. So again, staying vigilant and holding our state and national public health systems accountable for rapidly sharing info so that these local health departments can assess this risk and you know between you and me and everyone else listening, in the wake of COVID, it's shocking how sluggish the response to this threat has been, at least as it trickles down to the local level. and and If there's one thing I can say for animal agriculture, those folks listening in, I think we need to make certain we continue to stay on top of food safety in the face of this outbreak to avoid products entering the marketplace with live H5 virus.
00:16:29
Speaker
Just in the last few weeks we've seen raw milk that um is infecting cats in California that was sold from stores and then most recently we're seeing a raw pet food recalls that contain infected turkey and so we need to keep up with the situation and stay
Importance of Transparency and Episode Conclusion
00:16:46
Speaker
vigilant. So I know that was a long answer but it's kind of a complex problem at this point.
00:16:50
Speaker
No, I think that's great advice. So there are a lot of misconceptions about food production out there. How do you think that agriculture should be communicating with the general public about avian influenza?
00:17:01
Speaker
Ultimately, I'm probably not the best person to ask that question to. I am a brutally honest person and I expect the same from those with whom I communicate. And I personally believe it's it's important to give the public or at least the scientific community the facts in such a way that they can understand them.
00:17:21
Speaker
With the caveat, as you've mentioned before we started this, the situation is rapidly evolving. The caveat that this is a rapidly evolving situation and what we know today may change tomorrow, but I feel like if we leave voids in what we share, that the general public will start to fill in those gaps with speculation, which could ultimately cause more harm than good. I've seen this some with the regulatory agencies,
00:17:48
Speaker
where there is quite a lot of information that isn't shared, even with the scientific community. And this ends up resulting in a lot of hand waving to fill in those gaps. And and I think that does more harm than good. So at the end of the day, I believe over communication, in in my opinion, and honesty is the best policy because people can deal with what they know.
00:18:11
Speaker
It's sort of this unknown that ends up reading misinformation, speculation, and and ultimately distrust. Thanks again, Kay. And thanks to you for tuning in. For more episodes of the Future of Poultry podcast, please like and subscribe on whatpoultry dot.com or wherever you access podcasts.