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Immigration: The betrayal of Britain, with Rafe Heydel-Mankoo
2.7k Plays6 days ago
The UK is experiencing a once-in-a-century political realigment, overwhelmingly because the British people feel betrayed after decades of of mass-migration. The New Culture Forum has released a searing anthology of essays on the immigration crisis in the UK, and how it can be reversed. Will discusses the new publication with historian, broadcaster, and Senior Fellow at the New Culture Forum, Rafe Heydel-Mankoo.
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Transcript
Betrayal and Unprecedented Immigration
00:00:19
Speaker
G'day and welcome to Fire at Will. My guest today is historian and broadcaster at the New Culture Forum and contributor to the wonderful new book, Immigration, the Betrayal of Britain, Rafe Heydell-Manku. Rafe, thanks for joining me.
00:00:35
Speaker
Great pleasure to be with you, Will. It's lovely to have you on. I want to start with that word in the title, betrayal. Now, betrayal is a visceral feeling.
00:00:47
Speaker
This could have been immigration, the great policy failing of Great Britain, or the great mistake, or the great, pick your word, that you chose, or or the New Culture Forum chose that word betrayal very specifically.
The Cost of Immigration vs. WWII and Brexit
00:01:02
Speaker
Why? because it is the greatest betrayal. ah There's no other way to put it. Mass immigration, well, let me put it this way. We've had more immigration to this country in the last 20 years than in the last 2,000 years combined.
00:01:18
Speaker
It's an astonishing rate of change. And no culture, no peoples, no society can sustain, i would say can survive such rapid demographic change.
00:01:29
Speaker
And it's a betrayal because this happened without any public consent whatsoever. Mass immigration has been in constant yeah has been substantially more damaging to this country than the cost of fighting the Second World War.
00:01:42
Speaker
Far more consequential than debate around leaving the European Union. If the British people were given a referendum on Brexit, the British people were never given a referendum on mass immigration.
00:01:53
Speaker
And on the contrary, when they had general elections, they elected in time after time, decade after decade, governments who promised to lower immigration to the tens of thousands. And what happened? Gross immigration went up to over a million in a couple of years.
00:02:08
Speaker
That is an absolute betrayal. Then you had the Brexit vote and Boris Johnson who promised to take back control. Brexit was voted for by the British people largely on the grounds of
Post-Brexit Immigration Surge
00:02:18
Speaker
immigration. They understood take back control meant control your borders, stop mass emig immigration.
00:02:24
Speaker
What happened? Immigration increased. Boris Johnson chose to reinterpret take back control and we had the greatest wave of immigration in British history. We had between 2021 2024.
00:02:35
Speaker
and twenty twenty four almost 5 million people came into this country, 4.8 million. That's 7% of the population changed within three years.
00:02:46
Speaker
And 3.6 million of those people came from outside Europe, ah primarily from incompatible cultures a in the third world. And that rate of change, of course, has had huge consequences, as we can see ah today on the streets of Britain.
Political Motivations Behind Immigration
00:03:02
Speaker
The obvious follow-up question is why politicians at least try most of the time to do what voters ask of them or else they get voted out of office.
00:03:13
Speaker
I've heard rationales that span from economic to ideological to flat-out incompetence. But why, when you've had a populace which is consistently asked for one thing, which is lower immigration numbers, have politicians over the last 15 to 20 years routinely done the opposite?
00:03:30
Speaker
there are two reasons for that. I should also just say as a quick plug, the book is called Immigration, the Betrayal of Britain. and It's available via the New Culture Forum website. Originally, the great mastermind, the great architect of mass immigration originally had been Tony Blair and New Labour. Tony Blair, I say, is the most dangerous and sinister prime minister we had.
Economic Pressures and Infrastructure
00:03:49
Speaker
And of course, he was very much advised on this by someone called Peter Mandelson. i'm not sure whether you've heard of him before. And Peter Mandelson and Tony Blair and Alistair Campbell, they actually wanted to change the demography of Britain.
00:04:03
Speaker
and we found this out, there are a few occasions when the curtain slips and you get a glimpse behind to see what's going on, as with the Wizard of Oz. And a chap called Andrew Neither, who was speechwriter to the Minister of Immigration and New Labour, actually wrote an article years later revealing that they wanted to rub the right's nose in diversity. Those are the actual words that he used.
00:04:25
Speaker
And the intention was to create a new demographic, to flood the nation with immigrants because 80% of ethnic minorities at that time voted for the Labour Party. And the idea was if you had a new demographic coming in, you would in the decades to come guarantee Labour majorities into the future.
00:04:42
Speaker
And if you look at places like London, for example, well, it's a policy that has proved extremely effective with a ah meas si decarno lea me but lea mayor, mayor from the Labour Party who potentially will have a fourth term he wants to seek in office.
00:04:57
Speaker
So that was the logic and the understanding there. Of course, it's come
Social Strains and Cultural Tensions
00:05:00
Speaker
back to bite labor. This is what happens when you have one of these harebrained schemes on the back of an envelope. They didn't predict, of course, that eventually the the ah immigrant population will get so large that they wouldn't need the Labor Party.
00:05:10
Speaker
That's why now we see the biggest challenge to labor. One of the biggest challenges is the rise of this Muslim vote, something that was entirely predictable and and and was but but bound to happen. But then, of course, the Tories got into power. And you would think, well, what is the and what what is the reason that the Tories have wanted? Because obviously, this demographic isn't voting Tory.
00:05:27
Speaker
And there, of course, there's another argument. And this was, of course, that the Tory party was beholden to big business. The CBI, that the ah the business institute in this country, and others were basically calling for mass immigration to obviate the need for expensive infrastructure and technology, capital infrastructure, job automation, robotics, you know, machines that can pick apples and orchards.
00:05:51
Speaker
Rather than having all of that costly investment in infrastructure, you could simply flood the country with cheap labor. And that's what we saw in the early years of the Tory party. And then, of course, rocket boosters were placed under this when we got COVID.
00:06:06
Speaker
and Boris Johnson was concerned with inflation getting out of control, and so to stop inflation, he deliberately embarked upon this policy to import almost five million people in a short period of time to suppress wages.
00:06:20
Speaker
That's what's behind it, both of those, I think, are grounds to it for, well, I would go so far as to say those those are treasonous grounds for ah governing for for governing a country like that, to import vast numbers of people without any consideration for the long-term consequences.
00:06:35
Speaker
ah Not just the pressure on on housing, on infrastructure, on GP appointments, on the NHS, on the benefits system, which is huge because of course these people from bringing with them their families.
00:06:47
Speaker
And we know the economic costs, we can get into the economic costs later, but also the the social cost, the straining of social cohesion, ah the tensions that we're seeing, the fragmenting the fragmenting of British society, where people are now segregated into ethno-nationalist silos increasingly.
00:07:02
Speaker
We're becoming not a United Kingdom, but a United Nations. ah Because of course, if you want to integrate and assimilate people, you have to do so by and inviting in small numbers of people who can assimilate.
00:07:14
Speaker
There's no incentive to assimilate when you bring in such vast numbers who can quite simply create recreate their own societies in pockets of Britain, as we're seeing. But more than that, of course, Britain is famously tolerant.
00:07:25
Speaker
Britain is the world's third least racist nation behind Sweden and Brazil. We know this from many surveys, most notably the World Values Survey, which is an annual survey conducted by universities around the world, not known for being particularly right-wing universities.
00:07:41
Speaker
And they ask questions like, how would you feel if a person of a different race lived next door to you? Or if your daughter or son was engaged or married to a person of a different race? And of course, what we find as the yubik as the European Union also found in Europe, Britain, the black experience is best in Britain.
00:07:57
Speaker
More globally, we are the third least racist. But what do we find, of course? Now we see increasing intolerance in the most tolerant country. We see a rise in racism in the least racist country.
00:08:07
Speaker
Why? Because people feel that they are having their culture, their communities stolen from them. They see antisocial behavior. They see cultural practices which are abhorrent in Western societies, and some of them are reacting in very bad ways.
00:08:22
Speaker
What's that old Kipling poem, The Day England Came to Hate? What's what's the I forget, I think it's the day England came to hate.
Criticism of Boris Johnson's Immigration Policies
00:08:31
Speaker
Yeah. i think well When the English learned to hate, something like that, yes. When the English learned to hate. Long those plans, yeah. And that's been ah that's been used in in this context recently.
00:08:41
Speaker
i want to come back to to the Boris wave, of course, when that COVID period where there were rocket boosters put on immigration. Do you think Boris Johnson in his quiet moments now recognizes the immense damage that his now signature policy has done to the country? Or do you think he would still support it as a Bohemian liberal?
00:09:03
Speaker
Well, this is the key thing. Boris Johnson was never a true conservative. There's nothing high Tory about him. At best, he was a ne and neoliberal, you could say. But he's never been concerned about the the essence of the of the English character.
00:09:16
Speaker
and And we know full well, for example, with Brexit, he wrote two pieces for The Telegraph. he He wrote a piece, an opinion piece about staying in the European Union, He wrote one about leaving the European Union. He was never really a Brexiteer at heart. I know this. I've spoken to his father, actually, and Boris Johnson was not was not a Brexiteer, not a true Tory.
00:09:35
Speaker
And he has been on record very recently. He came out of the woodwork ands and defended his decision to import this Boris wave, the greatest demographic shift and in a thousand years of British history.
00:09:48
Speaker
We have never seen such a great shift within the space of three years. And
Welfare System and Migrant Eligibility
00:09:52
Speaker
in much the same way, Tony Blair still will defend his decisions and his about Iraq, for example, and the Iraq war.
00:09:58
Speaker
Whether they agree privately is another matter entirely, and I think you'd have to be quite dense not to see the the dire consequences, particularly for the Boris wave, because After five years of residence in this country, you are eligible to apply for inde indefinite leave to remain.
00:10:15
Speaker
And most of these people came on temporary visas, these 4.8 million. But if they're here for five years, they do have the right to stay permanently. And that suddenly opens up our entire welfare system.
00:10:27
Speaker
you know, benefits, so and eligibility for social housing, or everything, you can child benefits, everything then comes into play. And this is going to be a demographic time bomb, well, an economic time bomb ah that we're already going through a period of a straightened finances, where the benefits bill, of course, is already becoming unmanageable.
00:10:47
Speaker
And this is going to essentially, you know, multiply that by multiple multiple factors. unless action is taken very quickly. The Labour government seems to understand this. The Home Secretary wants to increase the number of years to 10 from five.
00:11:00
Speaker
But there's a huge push by Labour backbenchers ah who say that it's racist, unfair, and un-British. to extend indefinite leave to 10 years. They want these people to become eligible after five years.
00:11:12
Speaker
And I'll tell you what, the
Demographics and National Identity
00:11:13
Speaker
first wave of the Boris wave migrants became eligible for indefinite leave to remain, became eligible for benefits in January of this year. This is a huge tsunami about about to hit us.
00:11:24
Speaker
And if Starmer, who is so weak and feeble and is trying to fend off leadership challenges, does yet another U-turn and takes the knee to his loony left back benches, we're all going to be left with a mammoth bill.
00:11:38
Speaker
I find it frankly extraordinary as an immigrant that immigrants can get benefits. It just seems alien to me that you can get benefits as i as a guest in a country. We'll get back to the economic side, but I think there's an even more important foundational question because you've talked about this extraordinary demographic shift in a very, very short period of time.
00:12:00
Speaker
Some people would argue that demographics don't really matter. As long as you have a poster of Joe Root on your wall and go to the pub and have a pint on a Sunday, then really why does the demographic side matter? In fact, some people would say even if you don't do all of that sort of stuff, as long as you don't cause any problems, then demographics shouldn't matter.
00:12:20
Speaker
So why do demographics matter? Demographics matter fundamentally because a country is the creation of its peoples and peoples are different. um I've done another podcast, which I don't mind plugging on trigonometry, where i actually go into the uniqueness of the Western mind.
00:12:38
Speaker
The Western mind really is different. i mean There are a whole bunch of reasons for that which are too lengthy to go into here. But there's ah the reason that the that the West, of what the the reasons behind Western ascendancy, quite clearly because the Western mind viewed the world differently. you Look at things like curiosity. and There's a whole bunch of areas we we can go into, but we haven't got time to now.
00:12:56
Speaker
and that is and And particularly when the angle is fixed, if you look at the world's most individualistic nations, at the top is America, then it's Australia, then it's Canada, then it's the UK, then it's New Zealand.
00:13:08
Speaker
That's born in part out of out of Protestantism, but also out out out of the uniqueness of English history and culture and the way that it developed. And of course, when you talk about migration today, everyone talks about net migration figures.
00:13:23
Speaker
Net migration figures you can you can never you can never look at when you're talking about cultural change, about changes to the fabric of a nation. Because net migration figures look at all those who've arrived gross and those who've left. So if five million arrive, about two million people have left, that leaves you with three million net. That's great for deciding about population size, infrastructure needs, schools, GPs, I mean, doctor doctor appointments and all that sort of thing.
00:13:47
Speaker
But the people who are leaving and the people who are arriving are fundamentally different. And what we've seen, of course, is we've had a huge amount of migration out of this country. We're losing the brightest and the best people who are going to Australia, to New Zealand, to Canada, to America, to Spain, for some to retire.
00:14:04
Speaker
Europeans who are going back home to their countries. These people tend to be more high skilled, highly educated. And we're importing as replacements people coming into this country. Many of the majority of them are low skilled earners, low levels of education coming from Africa, coming from Asia.
00:14:23
Speaker
Many of them coming from from cultures that simply are incompatible and so distant from our own. that it does make a fundamental change.
Diversity vs. Social Cohesion
00:14:30
Speaker
And if you look at the nature of Britain today, it has completely changed within the space of 20 years.
00:14:35
Speaker
You know, when I was when i was born, i think London was around 90% white British. ah Today, it perhaps. It was in at the last census.
00:14:48
Speaker
it's now probably only one-th thirdd white proof No major city in world history has seen the indigenous population become a minority within the space of a generation. Here's another amazing statistic for a city that's 2000 years old. 40% of people living in London weren't born in the United Kingdom.
00:15:07
Speaker
Just let that sink in. What does that mean for a city when there's no collective memory? When half the people walking around it don't know about the great fire of London, don't know about the Blitz when we were bombed by the Luftwaffe. How can a city retain it's it's its essence, its soul, its character when half the population doesn't even know about what the cockneys are or cockney knees up or anything like that?
00:15:32
Speaker
So it's fundamentally changed. And this applies to London, but are the old mill towns of the north of England also People's homes and their communities have changed beyond all recognition.
00:15:43
Speaker
And that does matter because it's also about the the pace of change and that the unease that it causes. And the final thing to say about demographics, of course, is that, you know, barely a week goes past when you don't hear police commissioner or a mayor trot out that hackney trite mantra that diversity is our greatest strength. And it's become a sort of sacred faith-based mantra.
00:16:04
Speaker
But there's no evidence for it. And I've i've written about this, I've delivered lectures on this from ethnic diversity on or the super ethnic diversity we have today. Because once again, this is not about immigration.
00:16:16
Speaker
This is about mass immigration. In the 1980s and 90s, we had net migration of around 50,000. couple of years ago, we had over 745,000 came. In years alone, we had more than in 20 years.
00:16:27
Speaker
in two years alone we had more immigration and in twenty years So there's not an attack on immigrants, not an attack on high skilled immigrants. This is on mass immigration and mass immigration of people who are not going to be net contributors to British culture or the economy.
00:16:44
Speaker
And the scale of ethnic diversity over such a short period of time, all of the sociological evidence, the economic evidence shows that increased ethnic diversity, particularly on the neighborhood, is our greatest weakness.
00:16:56
Speaker
It makes people more introverted. they People stay at home more. They volunteer less. They give to charity less. They vote less often, but they become more involved with the politics of grievance and victimhood.
00:17:08
Speaker
And because they're not engaged with their with their community, because they're all living in silos, you begin to see the deterioration of the public square. Buildings deteriorate. more vandalism. That lends itself to more crime.
00:17:19
Speaker
And everyone knows this deep down is true. they can They've seen it happening in in communities, but we actually have the evidence.
Free Speech and Multicultural Challenges
00:17:25
Speaker
and There was a great book called ah Bowling Alone, which was written by an American left-leaning academic who was disturbed by what he found, Robert Putnam, in 2004, I think it was.
00:17:35
Speaker
But more recently, a couple of years ago, there was a meta-analysis of all 87 studies into ethnic diversity done by Danish scholars. And they found that in all 87 studies, it did show that diversity was not a strength.
00:17:48
Speaker
And that's what we've willingly imported. And that's why, of course, we have these attacks on free speech. Because if it wasn't for mass immigration, you would not have any of the attacks on free speech that you've seen in Britain and across the West.
00:18:00
Speaker
Because with the exception of the trans issue, where there have been some free speech issues, trans is a very minor issue. I think it's 0.002% of the population is trans. Most of the cases revolving around free speech have related to ethnicity, race, religion.
00:18:15
Speaker
And it's only by silencing the truth tellers, only by silencing those people who dare to speak up and say diversity is not our strength, that the emperor has no no clothes, that the British government certainly is so worried that they've imported so many people into this country that Britain is now a tinderbox about to explode, that the only way you can keep the bandwagon, on the multicultural bandwagon on the road is by silencing those who dare to point out that the um the unpleasant reality.
00:18:41
Speaker
I'm not sure if you heard the comments from the Premier of my home state of New South Wales, maybe 18 months ago now, give or take, where he actually said the quiet part part out loud in a way that I haven't heard any other politician come out and acknowledge it, where he said there's a very good reason that New South Wales doesn't have a US-style First Amendment and US-style free speech protections.
00:19:04
Speaker
He said it is because We are a multicultural society and the way to keep multicultural society together is by limiting speech. I thought he he obviously, I don't think he's he's going to split the atom. He's not a genius.
00:19:17
Speaker
thought he thought that this was an uncontroversial statement that everyone would just go, oh yeah, that's right. When really it was the most incredible mask off moment for that particular person. type of elite politician where they are going, we will shut you up because this multicultural society that we have built is so fragile that you need to limit what people can say. It was a really extraordinary moment.
00:19:41
Speaker
And to quote another person, they're building up the funeral pyre because they're not dealing with it. You would think if they understood quite what a disastrous ah potential conflagration they have awaiting them, they would do all they could to actually try to dismantle that in some way.
00:19:55
Speaker
Instead, of course, migration continues unabated. I don't know what they expect the end result to be. i mean, in this country, they keep putting their heads in the sand, be it the grooming gangs, whatever the situation is, they deliberately avoid tackling an issue. And the more you avoid tackling it,
00:20:11
Speaker
that the bigger it will
Ideological Subversion of Institutions
00:20:12
Speaker
become. Again, this just shows the disconnect, of course, between our elites and the public. I say now that Britain is a post-revolutionary society. we are are in All our institutions have been captured.
00:20:24
Speaker
We've been ideologically subverted. There's been a deliberate attempt to undermine our history and our culture. Our hearers are denigrated. And as you get within a year zero society, it Pol Pot or be it the communists in Russia, the Soviet Union or China, what you do is you eradicate the history, you denigrate the history, you pull down the statues, you rename the streets, and once you've got this tabula rasa, you then bring in the new myths, the new ideology.
00:20:50
Speaker
Diversity is our greatest strength. Britain has always been a multicultural country. you know ah Sub-Saharan Africans apparently helped to build Stonehenge. And I'm not making that up. There's a book called Beautiful Black British History that said that black people built Stonehenge thousands of years before they arrived here.
00:21:05
Speaker
And of course, that diversity built Britain. We even had a conservative prime minister, Rishi Sunak, lifting up a 50 pence coin saying diversity built Britain. Well, that's going to come as a great you know slap in the face to the generations who built St. Paul's Cathedral and Windsor Castle and all and and all the rest of it.
00:21:23
Speaker
And for these people, for these elites, immigration means cheap gardener, cheap plumber, cheap nanny or au pair, and you know, all the service you can require at a fraction of the price because they don't live at the coalface. They are not experiencing the dark side of diversity on a daily basis.
Elites vs. Working-Class Immigration Experiences
00:21:43
Speaker
And you can't discount the rampant snobbery here because if you look at, if again, if you look at the statistics, people are most in favor of immigration are those who live in the most homogenous areas. So within the United Kingdom,
00:21:54
Speaker
people living in Scotland, which was you know over 98% white until recently. Wales is the same thing. Southwest England, Cornwall, Devon. And then of course, leafy suburbs of London, Hampstead, Richmond, and so forth, because they don't see it. All they see are very pleasant professional classes.
00:22:11
Speaker
ah When they see migrants, they're not seeing the antisocial behavior And isn' there's not to blame migrants for that, but when you see migrants not queuing for buses, which is a great taboo in this country, littering on the streets, increasingly, I'm i'm afraid to say, defecating on the streets and so forth, they're doing precisely what they did back in their home countries. They don't know any better. No one has trained them to be British, which is part of the problem.
00:22:32
Speaker
And of course, this naturally leads to clashes and tensions. But because it's the poorest in society, it's the working classes who have had to deal with this for decades. they are tarnished as being far-right thugs and racist.
Cultural Norms and Security
00:22:46
Speaker
When, of course, the reality is they're simply having a ah visceral reaction to the situation, but also the threat to their families and to their children. When, of course, you see ah things like the grooming gangs, like the stabbings, like the mobile phone thefts and so forth.
00:23:01
Speaker
Yeah, I agree with that. there's There's another element to changing demographics and increased ethnic diversity in a city which is harder to measure, but you feel it more acutely. And only you only really clicked with me fully when I read Lionel Shriver's new book, A Better Life. And I'm speaking with Lionel next week, and it's it's attempting to talk about mass migration in the form of narrative fiction, which is an incredibly gutsy and and interesting way of approaching it.
00:23:29
Speaker
But she talked about the feeling of being in a city which is being overtaken by a wave of migrants. And it's a feeling of a lack of comfort. It's a feeling of a lack of security. It's a feeling of just, this isn't my home anymore.
00:23:45
Speaker
And you can point to examples. You can point to people on the train who choose to listen to music without earphones in without shame in a way that any traditional Englishman would find incredibly rude.
00:23:58
Speaker
I saw a TikTok video the other day of an immigrant who in a long line at I think Houston station or a station in London just walked to the front he couldn't comprehend why the English queue up for a train it just made sense to him just to go straight to the front.
00:24:12
Speaker
And it's something that you can't measure, but when you walk through a city like London, let alone a city like Birmingham, yeah you can't measure that feeling of going, I don't feel comfortable in my home anymore.
00:24:23
Speaker
But it's arguably the most profound and constant effect effect of of mass migration is the feeling of not being comfortable in your home.
Ethnic Diversity and Social Trust
00:24:34
Speaker
Yeah, all societies, all cultures, all civilizations are run on customs, on social mores, on traditions. These are the way things are done here. You know, there are faux pas you will commit in an Islamic culture if you show your feet to a mosque or whatever, ah which we wouldn't find a problem in this country. Every system runs by its by its own customs.
00:24:56
Speaker
And when you see those fraying, when you see those being blatantly violated, it and automatically makes you feel uncomfortable that you no longer belong. And also you don't know how to engage with such people because you don't know what their reaction will be to anything because they're not playing by the standard you know playbook that we understand.
00:25:15
Speaker
And that, of course, naturally lends itself to increased tensions. And one of the things we also know about diversity, for example, is that increased ethnic diversity doesn't just lead to a level lowering of social trust. Well, we should say, is so social trust is one of the key indicators for happiness in society and one of the key indicators of economically successful countries.
00:25:34
Speaker
The higher the level of social trust, do you feel you can count on your fellow man? If there's a drought, do you believe that they will not be watering their garden? If you drop something outside a shop, do you have faith someone will have returned that wallet or whatever inside the shop?
00:25:48
Speaker
And having those there's like those high levels of social trust is extremely important for for interpersonal relationships and for the generation of ideas and working together. And that's the that's the genesis of the most successful societies. How well do communities engage and work with each
Cultural Practices and Crime
00:26:03
Speaker
other? The more ethnic diversity, the lower the social trust falls, the lower the prosperity and the happiness of people fall.
00:26:09
Speaker
But it doesn't just apply to different races. Social trust also declines within people of the same race as well. And that's fascinating because even they don't know don't know any longer how to deal withqui with people who are who who are the same as them, but are in this new world where no one knows what the rules are any longer.
00:26:29
Speaker
And it's fundamentally destructive of any society. And of course, we see this a lot with the rise of antisocial behavior, as you're saying, people talking loudly on their phones, but also, of course, much more egregious examples.
00:26:40
Speaker
I mean, if you look at Britain today, we're now the global center of acid attacks, amazingly. ah We have gangs running in the streets with machetes. This is foreign to our culture. We never had this before.
00:26:51
Speaker
We have child marriage, of course. we have well We have honor killings now, a huge rise in in honor killings for coming particularly from South Asia. We have cousin marriage. We have all sorts of FGM rising.
00:27:03
Speaker
But look, let me put it this way. When ah after World War II, Lee k Kuan yu the founder of Singapore, came to London. And when he was in Trafalgar Square, he was shocked to see a pile of newspapers and no one selling them. But there was an honesty box. And people came, they put money into that honesty box, took a paper.
00:27:22
Speaker
If they needed some change, they'd take the correct change. And they went on. And he looked at that and he thought, that's the sort of society I want to create in Singapore. I want to make Singapore like Britain, but Singaporeans aren't British. To do this society, I need to have harsh laws, draconian punishments, and only then can I actually have that sort of a society.
00:27:43
Speaker
And by golly, he achieved it. And I increasingly feel that we need to make Britain like Singapore now. The chance of time has come when we need to do that. And i because we've had so much immigration, but not just immigration, we've had a complete, that the social contract has collapsed.
00:27:59
Speaker
You see antisocial behavior even amongst British born youth today, many of whom are
Integrating Radical Islam
00:28:03
Speaker
feral. I think we may need to introduce Singapore style draconian laws and harsh punishments, dare I say, even judicial canings, ah if you want to get Britain back on the right track.
00:28:15
Speaker
Well, that was going to be my next question is, does a Singaporean brand of authoritarianism, is that required in order to reverse some of the ills that are associated with mass migration? And I think you've answered it, but I want to get to that laundry list of, very sad laundry list, of ills that now face major cities across the United Kingdom, female genital mutilation, honor killings, cousin marriage, asset attacks,
00:28:40
Speaker
The elephant in the room is all of these are associated with the Islamic faith and cultures that are majority Muslim. There is a chapter in the book by Connor Tomlinson that says there can be no peace with Islam.
00:28:53
Speaker
How do you reflect on the compatibility of Islam with the United Kingdom and how and whether indeed it is compatible at all with a Western liberal democracy like the UK?
00:29:05
Speaker
It is, radical radical Islam isn't. And to me, the polling says everything that you need to know about this. too too of Look, a vast number of Muslims are very well integrated and productive members of our society.
00:29:18
Speaker
And we should celebrate the fact that we do have productive, engaged members of our society who are Muslim. But too often you're told it's just a tiny fringe minority who are radical.
00:29:29
Speaker
And I'm afraid that's not true either. It's not a fringe minority. You know, if you look at the polling, 9% of Muslims, still a minority, but that's a very large number, 9% of Muslims have admitted to being Islamists or supporters of terrorism.
00:29:44
Speaker
Now, 9% of the population, of the Muslim population, is 400,000 people. That is a huge number of people. And those are the ones who just admitted to this, of course, as well.
00:29:56
Speaker
But more disturbingly, for example, one in a hundred Muslims in this country is on the MI5 terror watch list. ah There are four million people ah Muslims in this country.
00:30:07
Speaker
There are approximately 40,000 on the terror watch list. The majority, 90% or whatever, are a Muslim. Now, let me put that in context. 40,000 is larger than the size of Hamas on October the 7th, in 2023, when they went into Israel.
00:30:24
Speaker
ah That's larger than the size of the ISIS army in Iraq in 2014. It's already half the size of the full-time British army. but Growth projections suggest that by 2050, you could have a doubling, potentially a trebling of the Muslim population, which would mean you'd have a million, if you look at 9%, you'd have a million people who support terrorism in this country walking our streets.
00:30:47
Speaker
that's large That's almost the same size as the American army. But ah in terms of those on the terror watch list, if it goes up to around 120,000 whatever, that's larger than the British army. So we've just got the Labour government agreeing to increase GDP spending on defence to two and a half, three, eventually five percent.
00:31:05
Speaker
But this is all focused on the external threats to the country. I would argue that we have a fifth column in this country, which is as just as big a national security threat as Russia or China, potentially bigger because it's more immediate and it's within <unk> within our territory.
00:31:19
Speaker
What funds are being allocated towards our security services, towards our intelligence services, towards the army to deal with the threat from within? We've had David Betts on this show previously, and he's, of course, now developed a ah brand around the likelihood of civil war across several European countries, but but particularly in yeah the UK.
Risk of Sectarian Conflict
00:31:42
Speaker
Do you think we're at a point where if mass migration continues to go unchecked, particularly from cultures which are not compatible with the United Kingdom, that the risk of civil war is real?
00:31:54
Speaker
Yeah, I agree with David Betts, but it's important we define what we mean by civil war because civil war is a very, very powerful term. And for for most people, they have images of the American civil war, of society completely wrenched in two, going at a hammer and tongs or of the English civil war, the Spanish civil war.
00:32:11
Speaker
This is different. This is much closer to what I would call the Northern Ireland experience of sectarianism, whereby you have two extreme radical organizations. It would have been the IRA on the Catholic side and then the the loyalist forces on the Protestant side.
00:32:25
Speaker
They would be attacking each other and in between would be the the British army And that's going to be imported into this country, sectarianism, if things aren't controlled. and the And the insurgency here is classic is classic maoist Maoist insurgency practice. There's three stages.
00:32:38
Speaker
The first is a 20-year stage where you develop your victim narrative, why why you are a curse. you You propagandize, you try to recruit people with this victim narrative, with videos and and speeches in mosques or wherever.
00:32:52
Speaker
And that's been going on for for well over 20 years. You then begin to raise money, often using criminal gangs and intimidation to raise money and buy arms. ah And you begin to get a militia together. we saw this during the south port after the Southport murders.
00:33:08
Speaker
We had the Muslim Defense League all in their sort of body armor. going around so you can call on heavies and muscle when you want them. You now have no-go zones where the police have to ask community elders for a good time when they can visit these areas if they want to and investigate people or whatever.
00:33:25
Speaker
And you begin you get you begin to allow intimidation. So we saw that the last election, you're having Muslims Muslim radicals going up, intimidating MPs, his election time, arson attacks. But then, of course, the terrorist attacks, the lone wolves, the bombings, all of this happens.
00:33:40
Speaker
That's a 20-year, 25, 30-year process we've seen happen. On the other side, to challenge that, is the white identity movement. But it's still very much in its infancy. It's a nation of force.
00:33:51
Speaker
But, of course, the white population is so much larger, it wouldn't take long for them to catch up. And that is growing alarmingly. it is so It should be distressing to people to see this rising up. They still need to get to the same level that the radical Muslims are at. But once they do that, and they can do that in short order, then you will get to the point where you see Northern Ireland scenes in Britain. And we go through our own version of the troubles.
British Cultural and Ethnic Identity
00:34:14
Speaker
And of course, all of this was so easily's easy to predict.
00:34:18
Speaker
Yes, I agree. well There's an interesting reference towards white nationalism or or pride in a white ethnic identity, which has been affiliated with racism for a long period of time.
00:34:30
Speaker
At the same time, a lot of people find it quite odd that if you are black and take pride in your ethnic identity, no one bats an eyelid. But if you are white and take pride in your ethnic identity, it is perceived by many people as being racist.
00:34:43
Speaker
ah yeah um a various Sorry, i should when I use that term, I'm talking about a violent a violent white identity movement. I'm talking about and a paramilitary type form.
00:34:54
Speaker
let's Let's go for the non-violent white identity movement, which has emerged in various debates in the United Kingdom in recent years. you Whether English is an ah is an ethnicity or a cultural group.
00:35:06
Speaker
You mentioned Rishi Sunak earlier. He was the the touchpoint for that debate. He's Rishi Sunak English. I can look at the list of very fine contributors that you have in in immigration, the betrayal of Britain, and some of them have have argued very strongly for you know Englishness to be perceived as an ethnicity more than as a cultural grouping.
00:35:27
Speaker
How do you feel about this debate and do you think it's a useful debate to have? It's a debate I perfectly well understand because people can see their culture being taken away from them. And the English quite clearly were a homogenous and are a homogenous ethnic group. They have been force for centuries.
00:35:44
Speaker
Yes, people will say, well, look at the Anglo-Saxons, look at the look at the later arrivals. Anglo-Saxons came to this country, started it in the in the in six six hundred in the year If they're not indigenous, then why are the Maori indigenous? You know, the the Maori are are classified as an indigenous population. They only arrived in New Zealand in the 1300s, centuries after the Anglo-Saxons arrived in Britain. The point was after then, he didn't yeah apart from the Normans, you didn't really have any great change and the Normans didn't leave that much of a footprint behind.
00:36:14
Speaker
so you have the complete peoples who have basically shaped the greatest country in the world. Britain, but specifically England created the modern world. That should be a source of pride. And at this stage, when there isn't any English ah citizenship, we are a United Kingdom of Great Britain.
Reversing Migration Proposals
00:36:31
Speaker
We all have a British passport.
00:36:32
Speaker
If England were to separate, if the UK broke up and there was a separate Scotland and separate England, it would be quite easy to say, well, everyone's English because they have an English passport and English citizenship. But I think it's important to recognize the distinct nature of of the English people, much as you would recognize the distinct status of the Quebecers in Canada.
00:36:49
Speaker
you know, the Quebec has been recognized as a distinct society, the Quebecois people. I see no reason why you couldn't, if it's good enough for French Canadians who've only been in Canada for a few hundred years, I don't see why you can't recognize the English nation as a distinct people.
00:37:03
Speaker
Now, of course, That's different from being it culturally English. So I think until you have English citizenship, you can have two types of Englishness. English ethnicity and English identity, which is a distinct society and should be respected.
00:37:15
Speaker
But of course, there there are people like Rishi Sunak, certainly like myself, who are culturally English. You're not going to find anybody who is more patriotic for England than I am. I can i can out quote anybody when it comes to patriotic English poems and speeches and songs and whatever. See me on the last night at the proms.
00:37:32
Speaker
And I descend from William the Conqueror and I descend from Harold of Westicks, Harold Godwinson. So I diss descend from both of those. Anne Edward III, second cousin, but my body Prince Charlie behind me was a second cousin. But I don't regard myself as being ethnically English. I regard myself as other being culturally English.
00:37:49
Speaker
And there should be a place for all of us to live and cohabit side by side. I don't, so i don't i so i think we can all happily be living in England and just understand that, yes, there is a wider sense of Englishness, but at its core, it's a distinct English people, but we are all culturally English. I don't see that there needs to be necessarily the tensions that that we've seen over over over recent months.
00:38:12
Speaker
genetically haing or yeah point view The key point is you have to respect English culture, English traditions, and the English way of life. Holding a British passport doesn't mean you're British if you don't respect the but the country, if you don't love it.
00:38:27
Speaker
I had very much admired the Americans in the 1970s and 80s when they had those bumper stickers. America, love it or leave it. And that's the policy I should say. If you don't love Britain, you don't love England, then get out. You're not English and you're not British.
00:38:41
Speaker
Well, there's a segue there to your contribution to the book, which is chapter 10, reversing mass migration, laying the groundwork for success. How do you reverse mass migration?
00:38:52
Speaker
Well, does but read by the book and you'll find out. quite well first give meaning give gi gi giveby giveby give me a Yeah, so what a key point is to recognize we can't can't carry on as we are.
00:39:04
Speaker
You need to type well you need to re tackle illegal immigration and you need to tackle legal immigration. Illegal immigration, we now get more people coming to this country every year illegally.
00:39:15
Speaker
than we got coming through normal channels in the 80s and 90s. So legal immigration in the and 90s was around 50,000. That's the number we get illegally into this country. And the way you achieve that, the way you stop illegal immigration is you have a genuine hostile environment and you make Britain so unpleasant that they will stay in France, they will stay in Germany, they will stay anywhere rather than come here.
00:39:38
Speaker
And there are many ways you do that. Firstly, of course, when the boats come across, if you can't turn the boats back to Britain, back to France, you have old cruise ships in the English Channel which are moored there.
00:39:48
Speaker
You put everyone on the dinghy into these cruise ships. Once the cruise ships are filled up, They're sold away to the South Georgia islands, a British overseas territory under British law. So you don't get any of the legal issues around Rwanda being an unsaved third country and you process them ah on the South Georgia islands. And once they realized they're never actually going to set foot on English soil.
00:40:08
Speaker
They're just going to go straight to a cruise ship and straight to South Georgia and be processed on a windswept island in the Atlantic. It won't take long before the message gets out that that this is a very effective deterrent and there's no point in making the channel crossing because we'll never arrive in the UK.
00:40:23
Speaker
You also need to get rid of the port. The Australian experience suggests about a month it would take before that deterrent proves effective. Yeah, and people say, oh, well, South George Island is too far, but it's not practical. Well, by having cruise ships rather than planes, it makes it much cheaper and more affordable to take people there.
00:40:39
Speaker
And secondly, Nauru is 2,000 miles off the coast of Australia, so it doesn't matter. The distances clearly aren't an issue. The policy can work, and yes, Australia is the model for that.
00:40:51
Speaker
Other thing is, of course, the pull factors. So, you know, it's much harder to to go into the underground economy in France than it is in Britain. In Britain, it's very easy to slip into the underground economy. the curry houses, the delivery the food delivery app drivers and all this sort of thing.
00:41:04
Speaker
Also, there are rogue landlords who will basically rent without doing any background checks and you'll get six people in one room somewhere. So you have criminal penalties. Right now, there are no criminal penalties for that. So you basically have criminal sanctions on rogue landlords and rogue employers so that you really do tighten the net and there is no job opportunities for people coming to this country You also, of course, get rid of all the benefits. Citizenship should bring benefits. Quite literally, it's only citizens get benefits.
00:41:30
Speaker
But also, of course, we ridiculously have migrants in hotels in this country. And the Labour government says, oh, well, we're closing all the hotels. But where are they going? They're going straight into public housing.
00:41:42
Speaker
That's not going to create a better situation. i would actually rather have my illegal migrants of young men of fighting age on a golf course on the outskirts of town rather than next door to my family or opposite from a primary school, which is what's going to happen.
00:41:55
Speaker
All private accommodations should be emptied, all hotels, and migrants should be put into into temporary refugee camps, old military bases kept there. i yeah This woman, Theresa Dunlop, this historian, challenged me and said, oh, how can you use the word camps? It's a British invention that comes up images of the concentration camp. To which I said, well, you know, but that's going to be news to people who go to Buckland's holiday camp, isn't it?
00:42:18
Speaker
But more importantly, after the Second World War, there were 250,000 Poles in this country, members of the british or the Polish armed forces, but also their families, elderly people, women and children who couldn't go back to Poland because it was communist and meant they'd be imprisoned.
00:42:33
Speaker
And so 250,000, double the number of migrants who are here right now, were housed in nineteen fifty s style camps. much more primitive than today. And they lived there for 10 or 15 years.
00:42:44
Speaker
My mother's two cousins lived in these camps for years. One fell in love and got married. They never once moaned about their conditions. They were delighted and happy that Britain had welcomed them in and were willing to live like that. So that was fine for families in the nineteen fifty s Why aren't 21st century, much higher levels of of quality camps suitable for young men of fighting age, particularly when our young men of fighting age do have to live in camps in the army, in Nissan huts and so forth.
00:43:09
Speaker
So anyway, those are ways you can really deal with the the the illegal migration. And with legal migration, it's also very simple. You stop the benefits. So again, you cannot get indefinite leave to remain.
00:43:20
Speaker
I would abolish that completely. the UAE is a good example. In the UAE, it's quite easy to get a visa to work there, but you don't get benefits, obviously, and it's extremely hard to get citizenship.
00:43:30
Speaker
And citizenship, I would say, you only get after 15 years. If you can demonstrate that you are able to support yourself, be a net contributor, you're not a drain on the economy, and you haven't been a drain on the economy in the previous 15 years, and that you have a level of proficiency in the English language, and you can demonstrate that you are an integrated and assimilated and productive member of of society.
00:43:52
Speaker
Also, take out the example of, say, Sweden, where you now have voluntary re-migration, where they all pay around 300,000 kronor, which is about 30,000 pounds. ah to entice people to go home.
00:44:03
Speaker
And if you are a family of five, say from Syria or wherever, that's quite a good sum of money to go back and you can live live live a
Integration and Radicalization Policies
00:44:09
Speaker
very good life. So there are lots of different areas, but that's sort of that's a good idea of how you can start to tackle tackle this issue.
00:44:16
Speaker
two Two things that I would add, number one is taxing remittances. And the second and more controversial one would be shaping or limiting cultural behaviors. And the two things that I have in mind are banning halal and kosher slaughter and banning the burqa.
00:44:33
Speaker
Some people even more controversially have said just closing the mosque, are closing the mosque. How do you feel about limiting those cultural practices as a disincentive for people coming to the country?
00:44:44
Speaker
I certainly think banning the burqa is something which should be considered. it It shouldn't be regarded. You know, it' it's an Anglosphere thing because we're so tied to these ideas of freedom and individuality and liberty.
00:44:55
Speaker
And in the Anglosphere, the idea of banning the burqa really makes us feel uncomfortable. But when you look to the continent of Europe, Europe, a place where so many people on the left in this country look to her some sort of Valhalla, very advanced progressive countries across Scandinavia and elsewhere have embraced the banning of the burqa.
00:45:12
Speaker
you do We are at a point now where the prioritization of British culture and overarching British culture, rather than promoting minority cultures, has to be the the only way way way forward.
00:45:23
Speaker
So yes, you do need to do things like that, but also you need to tackle the mosques. I mean, I do i don't want you i don't want the mosques closed, but you know over 40% of British mosques are run by the Diobandi cult.
00:45:36
Speaker
Now, the Diobandis are the extremist group that gave birth to the Taliban. And the Deobandis are the ones who control almost all of the the prison chapters, the Muslim prison chapters in our prisons, where they're radicalizing Muslim prisoners and converting usually ginger guys, a white ginger guys over to become become Muslim.
00:45:57
Speaker
And the ashrah, the madrassahs are also tend to be dominated by the Deobandis. So we have a real problem with radical Islam infiltrating these organizations.
00:46:08
Speaker
lot this, of course, is with the backing of the Muslim brotherhood. Deeply insidious organization, you know, anti-Semitic, but you know, what you used to promote and translate Hitler's works into into Arabic.
00:46:19
Speaker
Long history of involvement with with with the Nazis. So all of these organizations still, you know, the Muslim Brotherhood still hasn't been prescribed in this country, even been prescribed in the in the Middle East. There's a lot more that could be done to stop the radicalization of of of of Muslims in this country.
Right-Wing Unity and Political Realignment
00:46:37
Speaker
And ah along along with that, of course, also is a mass deportation of of of ah of illegal migrants, both involuntary and and voluntary, but also the mass deportation of foreign criminals and dual national criminals. If you have two passports and you can register a grant, you should also be deported out. So you do get rid of the of of this element of people who tend to who then tend to ah influence others within society.
00:47:01
Speaker
My final question goes to the political implications of immigration in coming years. The UK is witnessing a once-in-a-century political realignment. The Conservatives appear to be fading, again largely as a result of the betrayal on immigration that they perpetuated.
00:47:19
Speaker
Reform is ahead in the polls. They are ahead in the polls again, largely as a result of immigration. But at the same time, many people on the right actually are losing confidence in their ability to do what is necessary, which is why you are seeing other parties emerge like Advance and most recently Rupert Lowe's Restore Party.
00:47:37
Speaker
How confident are you that reform can do what is necessary on immigration and what do you make of Rupert Lowe's new restore offering, which is is a response to that lack of confidence in reform?
00:47:49
Speaker
Well, we have to unite the right. The reality is in this country that sixth Britain is no longer a conservative nation. We like to fool ourselves that it is, but we are a post-revolutionary society.
00:48:02
Speaker
Yes, the traditional Britain still is. The working class communities are still small, too conservative. Many people are. But of course, we've had a generation, more than one generation, indoctrinated in our universities.
00:48:13
Speaker
We've got a middle class who who who aren't conservative, and we have an ethnic demographic which aren't conservative. So 60% of British people vote for center-left parties. Well, of the votes cast, usually 60% of the center-left parties. is The reason we've had right-wing or conservative government steadily over the recent decades has been because there's only been one party to vote for on the right.
00:48:34
Speaker
The left have been fragmented, both Britain and Labour, the Lib Dems, the Green Party, SNP in Scotland, Plaid, Comrie in Wales. If we fragment the right, we are never going to get a right-wing government ever again.
00:48:48
Speaker
We're going to have a left-wing coalition. And this is so acute at this next election because the left are so scared about the potential for a reform government that we're going to see tactical voting employed to a degree we have never seen before. There will be no party loyalty. People put on the left are going to vote for whatever candidate is most likely to defeat the reform candidate.
00:49:09
Speaker
So although you can see a pathway for a reform to form a majority government with just 32% of the vote, if you get this tactical voting, that could be out of their way.
00:49:20
Speaker
And if you get these rival parties on the right, it may mean that you won't have any right-wing party at all. And of course, everyone should know, especially after this, after this but if you see me elsewhere, nobody is more hardline on the policies that need to be done, on the ideology, on the steps that we need to do to reverse work, reverse mass immigration and restore pride in Britain and return our country to its rightful place amongst the greats.
00:49:44
Speaker
But you can only do that if you are in power. There's no point having great policies if you're always going to be in opposition. And I fear this is, of course, the issue that we had on the left with the with Corbyn and the Green Party, people like Owen Jones leaving the Labour Party and so forth.
00:49:59
Speaker
All of this fighting on the on their side means you're never actually gonna have a chance to enact your policies. And that's my great fear. I think it would be much more sensible as much as much as I understand all of the arguments and and worries.
00:50:10
Speaker
ah We have to put our faith in reform because they are the only game in town. You know, we we know from polling polling that a couple of years ago, 15% of the nation only had ah knew who Rupert Lowe was.
00:50:22
Speaker
Today, it's gone down to 8%. Only 8% of the country have ever heard of Rupert Lowe. It's so difficult to dislodge this two-party system of politics. And we are, as you said, we're at that moment when that once-in-a-century moment when the tectonic plates of politics shift.
00:50:36
Speaker
A hundred years ago, Labour managed to supplant the Liberals as the second party of government. Now we're at the point where we could displace the Tories and have the Reform Party take that place. There's no chance in hell, in terms of mathematics and arithmetic, this is not speaking from passion or emotion or anything else than cold, hard numbers and facts.
00:50:55
Speaker
There is no way any other party than Reform has enough global and not enough national recognition that it will become the next party of government or the next opposition. Only Reform can do that.
00:51:06
Speaker
If you are concerned about Reform, the challenge is over the next couple of years, to in ensure that ah that Overton window shifts. And look, take hope from this. The Overton window has shifted so much in the last year. We are discussing issues today in February or March in 2026 that were unimaginable just 12 months ago.
00:51:25
Speaker
I fully expect by the time of the next election, There'll be much more red meat issues being discussed and people realize, but give reform the chance to develop their policies over the next two years. Much like Trump was better in Trump too at the beginning because he had those four years under Biden when he was out of office, where he could professionalize, get his team together, get the right policies in a way he wasn't able to when Trump won.
00:51:47
Speaker
Give reform that breathing space, try them out, see their manifesto, see what they're like in in office if they get into power. And then is a chance. If you don't like what's happening, then to then to have rivals there, then to do what UKIP and the Brexit party did for the Tory party was to keep their feet to the fire.
00:52:06
Speaker
And the Tory party ended up parking their tanks on UKIP and Brexit party ah policies in order to stay in in favor with the public. That's the way to do it. But let's at least get a right-wing government in there. Otherwise, this is going to be such a terrible moment for Britain because the next election is I would say the most important election we've ever fought because we have the most radically left-wing youth in history and we have an ethnic demographic that don't vote for the conservative party or right-wing parties.
00:52:35
Speaker
And 2% of right-wing voters are dying almost every year and they're not being replenished. And so the demographic that votes right wing is getting naturally smaller.
00:52:45
Speaker
Only 24% of youth in this country vote for the Tory party or the reform party. The rest of them vote for left wing parties. That's only going to grow specific, particularly with with with ah immigration.
Conclusion and Book Promotion
00:52:57
Speaker
So this election is crucial if we're going to have any hope of righting the ship. Ralph, remind everyone where you can get the book. go to newcultureforum.org.uk, Immigration, The Betrayal of Britain.
00:53:12
Speaker
Also, you can sign up to my YouTube channel, Rafe Hadel Manku. Fantastic. Rafe, thank you so much for coming on. Great pleasure. Thanks so much, Will.