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Another heretical conversation with Andrew Gold
2.7k Plays6 days ago
Heresy is any belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs or customs. It has never been more important to encourage heretical conversations, and embrace heretical thinkers.
There are few more important heretical thinkers in UK independent media than the host of the Heretics podcast, Andrew Gold. Will and Andrew discuss the rise in political violence across the West, Islam, mass-migration, Liz Truss revisionism, and the likelihood of civil war in the UK.
Follow Will Kingston and Fire at Will on social media here.
Read The Spectator Australia here.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Fire at Will' and Andrew Gold
00:00:20
Speaker
G'day and welcome to Fire at Will, I'm Will Kingston. Heresy is defined as any belief or theory that is strongly at odds with established norms or customs.
00:00:32
Speaker
There was that awful period, what, five or six years ago, where it felt like the window of conversation was so narrow and anything that swayed outside of that window put you at real ah ah risk of being cancelled or being publicly shamed or being fired.
00:00:51
Speaker
We're moving out of that, but it doesn't mean that having conversations around uncomfortable truths is less important. In fact, if anything, it needs to be consistently promoted.
Andrew Gold's Podcast: 'The Wildly Successful Heretics'
00:01:02
Speaker
which is why people like my guest today, documentary filmmaker, podcaster, and author Andrew Gold are so important.
00:01:12
Speaker
Andrew's podcast, The Wildly Successful Heretics is now available on YouTube but and all good podcast platforms. Andrew, welcome back to Fire at Will. Thanks for having me, mate. what What a wonderful podcast this is. So always a pleasure to be here.
00:01:26
Speaker
And I think you're one of those people, and and I think, I presume your audience is, that aligns very much. I mean, there's not often that I see a tweet from you where I go, gosh, Will's really got that one wrong.
00:01:37
Speaker
So, you know, whether that means we're objectively right, as we might like to think, or just there's a lot of mental people on either side, and we're just trying to go, okay, let's let's be cool. I don't know, but good to be here.
00:01:49
Speaker
a bit of column A, a bit of column B.
Contemplation of Death and Societal Bravado
00:01:51
Speaker
you ah You said to me when we were warming up for the show that you've been thinking about death a lot lately. Why? That's been since I was like 12 and realized the sort of the the finality of it. I know i'm not I'm not really saying anything Shakespeare wasn't saying or people thousands of years before him, I imagine.
00:02:10
Speaker
It's just the human condition. I think it's really sad And I think a lot of people feel they have to show a certain bravado, maybe. a lot of i mean, I'm an atheist, and a lot of atheists do this. Ricky Gervais, I love him, is one of my favorite people ever.
00:02:24
Speaker
But hes he's one of them who's like, hey, I wasn't here before. I'm not going to be here after. So be it. you know Richard Dawkins does a similar kind of, well, there's not much you can do, is there? And I'm more in the kind of, I suppose David Baddiel camp, it might be a kind of maybe a Jewish hysteria, anxiety thing, or like, why isn't everybody running around screaming right now?
00:02:44
Speaker
It's the most unbelievable gift, whether people do believe in it, God or of some kind, or just the universe being conscious of itself. It's just so incredible that I can breathe.
00:02:55
Speaker
And I often get this blocked nose thing, which which is almost good in a sense, because it makes me really appreciate when I can breathe well. And right now I can. And I just feel the air coming and it feels so good. i love being alive. I love being alive.
00:03:08
Speaker
And i think a lot of people do. And it's really sad that one day we probably, probably won't be. You will recall in our last conversation, inspired by your podcast, I threw a series of heretical questions or statements at you, and it was very well were received.
Political Violence in Progressive Politics
00:03:25
Speaker
So I've got another list for you to sink your teeth into. We'll start with one which is very much of the moment, and that is political violence has become inherent to progressive politics.
00:03:41
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, i i agree with that statement. And I think it's, it's my whole worldview has shifted in the last few years. And one of the things I try to do as much as possible, because I used to investigate cults, was try to understand that we are all to an extent in a cult. there's a great book that I often reference called Cultish by Amanda Montel.
00:04:02
Speaker
about because I think a lot of cult experts like to draw a kind of line and they go this is a cult so Scientology or whatever and that is not a cult I don't know your local football team you play for whatever but really it's a kind of spectrum out of 10 and we're all in them whether your local book club for example maybe you feel you can't say certain things and if you question people you'll be kicked out and people won't talk to you because you've said the wrong thing and other people will start to talk with one another and and push you out The reason I say that is because if we're all in cults to an extent, it's it's easy for us to sit here and say, hey, the other side does the bad thing. And the progressives in in my situation and in yours and most of the audience, they're the other side.
00:04:44
Speaker
So it's so easy to just say, yeah, they're the violent ones. And yet, which is why I don't want to say it because it's too easy. It's not, I suppose it's not really a heretical view. It's just the other side of baddies and they're a bunch of violent lunatics. Yeah.
00:04:57
Speaker
But it is seeming more and more that way.
Evolution of Left-Wing Ideology
00:05:00
Speaker
There was a point that Constantine Kissin made recently, said, after the Charlie Kirk death, he said, but notice what you what what we don't see.
00:05:08
Speaker
And what we didn't see in that moment was tons of right-wing people smashing windows, looting shops, ah threatening politicians. And the the very thing you're seeing at the moment by leftists in Italy just two days ago at the time of filming when they didn't want um recognize a Palestinian state.
00:05:26
Speaker
It does feel like whenever they don't get what they want, we must now, and we do expect, a real level of violence, whether it's smashing windows and ruining people's businesses and things, or whether it's a potential assassination.
00:05:41
Speaker
And again, like I, for example, I was very upset about the the Jimmy Kimmel thing that he was pushed off air for saying something that I think was a bit wrong about Charlie Kirk and and very offensive, but I don't like the right doing those kinds of things. So I got ah upset about that.
00:05:55
Speaker
but Then he was put back on. So it was just a few days. But what a lot of people brought to my attention was the number of times that the likes of Kimmel and many, many other American progressives celebrated when Trump had his social media taken away or various other people lost platforms because of their speech.
00:06:12
Speaker
So again, it's both sides that do, you know, it's not that the right can never be violent. It's not that the right can never censor. But at the moment, it really does seem to be coming from the progressive side. Yeah, it the both sidesism that we've heard in the wake of Charlie Kirk's death has frustrated me a tad because in one sense it's right.
00:06:30
Speaker
Of course there's political violence from traditionally conservative type people and traditionally leftist type people. But I think that doesn't actually go to the underlying reasons as to why those different categories of people would be doing what they do.
00:06:46
Speaker
So if you look at the way that left-wing ideology has evolved over recent years and decades, what they've effectively said is that there are some particular views which are not just wrong or misguided, but are dangerous.
00:06:59
Speaker
This is where the far right or Nazi or racist stuff comes in. And as a result of that, those particular views shouldn't be overcome by a debate or discussion. They need to be suppressed.
00:07:10
Speaker
They need to be censored. They need to be cancelled. They need to be banned. And at the very extreme end of any east cancellation is, of course, a final cancellation, which is political violence or assassination.
00:07:21
Speaker
And that's why I suggested that... for the left-wing side of politics, there is now inherent in that ideology, taken to its warped logical conclusion, the permission structure for political violence, whereas I still think political violence carried out on the right is from the nutter, crackpot type person who is acting basically completely out of alignment with that particular ideological framework.
00:07:51
Speaker
Yeah, punch a Nazi just became such a common reference. And then if you start labeling all of your political enemies as Nazis, then there's going to be a lot of punching. And um' I haven't really seen that on the right. That's not to say that the right, and and I think you're alluding to this as well, because we're talking about a very particular time and place right now.
00:08:06
Speaker
ah Historically, Pinochet in Chile, Bidela in Argentina, I sort of got between ah Argentina and Argentina, something in between
Immigration History and Impact
00:08:15
Speaker
just then. but that your wife Your wife is Argentine, isn't she?
00:08:18
Speaker
Yeah, she she is she is. And I speak sort of the Argentine dialect of Spanish. so ah Sometimes it's almost weird to say Argentina, but then I so sound like a knob saying, oh, I was Argentine. used to get the football commentators sometimes and they're like and here is Thierry Henry.
00:08:32
Speaker
And it just sounds ridiculous. But then so does Thierry Henry. So I don't really know how you, um for any non-football fans, that's a French footballer's name. But yeah, it's a difficult one to know how to how to do that.
00:08:43
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, historically, the right and obviously, I mean, the Nazis, although some would claim that they're the left, I know there's that argument going around. It's political extremism. But right now, there's a very specific kind of progressive left that does feel like it has the moral high ground, as you say, and that permits...
00:08:59
Speaker
a level of violence in the name of good. It feels like humans will do that. And I guess that's a worrying indictment of humanity, that if you give a human or a number of humans an excuse to be violent and feel good about themselves, it feels like most will do it, or at least a society will tend towards that.
00:09:18
Speaker
And that's sad about us, but we're animals. Yeah, that that comment on taking the moral high ground and therefore feeling that the means justify the ends when it comes to violence is really interesting.
00:09:31
Speaker
only saw half an hour before we came on that you reposted a video from the Lib Dem conference, which has just concluded, in which a large group of the conference attendees were singing a song which included the lyrics.
00:09:45
Speaker
Tony Blair can fuck off and die. And this is, of course, right smack bang in the context of us having a global conversation around political violence. And the fact that they can sing that song with a smile on their face completely oblivious to that broader context seems to be astonishing to me.
00:10:05
Speaker
Yeah, so it really made me angry, actually. Totally out of touch with the situation, which is one of the things that we are constantly flabbergasted by, how often a lot of these kind of centristy Lib Dem kind of characters, I know ro Rory Stewart is ah is a but is or was a Tory, I don't even know anymore, Alistair Campbell, Labour, but we're talking about the same kind of swimming pool that they're all in.
00:10:25
Speaker
And they don't seem to know what's going on in the world. they They just get things wrong time and time again with their utter shock over Brexit, their utter shock over Trump getting elected, while the rest of us on the outside were going, work well, this is no surprise at all because we're actually listening.
00:10:40
Speaker
And part of that not listening, in this case, was the Lib Dems. is not listening to a global conversation, as you say, that's going on about, hey, guys, tone down the narrative right now. We certainly don't need to be calling for the death of anyone. Not to mention that calling for the death of someone is typically, not always, but historically has been an Islamic way of speaking about one's enemies.
00:11:00
Speaker
You do see it in kind of the French Revolution as well, Amour, you know, that kind of death too. But death to in the last 50 years, death to Israel, death to America. That makes you think of Islam and sort of that, what was that South Park when they did the the creators of South Park, Team America?
00:11:15
Speaker
Yeah, Team America. It makes you think of that kind of thing. So that death to thing. But Tony Blair is one of those guys who has the unfortunate situation now of being the enemy of everyone. I mean, he's the enemy of the far left.
00:11:28
Speaker
because he was seen as cozying up to the Tories and being a kind of very centrist labor, whatever. He is the enemy of the right, of course, because he's the guy who started all this nuts, crazy levels of immigration.
00:11:40
Speaker
And now the moderate center are calling for his death. So it can't be very nice for him. And he must be thinking, gosh, what did I do? Because I was so damn popular at the time, at least in his first and second term. He has a wife.
00:11:51
Speaker
He's got kids. It's a horrific way to speak about anybody. i absolutely blame him for the levels of immigration. But knowing what I think what I know about cults and the way that they work and all of those kinds of things, I think he was swept up in something.
00:12:04
Speaker
I don't for a minute think that he's some sort of psychopath who wanted to do horrible things and ruin the country. He seems to have stepped back on some of those things, but then he pushes for ID and things a lot of our kind of crowd don't like.
00:12:16
Speaker
And I think, okay, well, I don't like it. i don't If he came into my restaurant, if I had a restaurant, I would serve him and hope he had a good time because he's a human being and I don't think he's malevolent. So I think we need to understand. it At the same time, I've got a video coming out tonight, but this will already already gone out, I imagine by the time with Rupert Lowe.
00:12:34
Speaker
And he does talk about Tony Blair and Tony Blair being the problem, I think, with what's happening today. He was the inception of all of that. It doesn't mean that he is an awful person. We need to be able to put politics and people aside.
00:12:47
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a good point. And we've spoken to Rupert Lowe on this podcast, and he's someone who's done ah really outstanding job of, to my earlier point, broadening out the acceptable things that we're allowed to say in
Controversial Immigration Statements
00:13:00
Speaker
polite society.
00:13:01
Speaker
And certainly the mass migration conversation has moved exponentially in the last two years. i think partly as a result of the desperation of the British people and partly as a result of people like Rupert Lowe who are willing to say things which may be uncomfortable in, to my earlier comment, polite society but are nonetheless truthful and need to be to be said.
00:13:27
Speaker
Let's go to an immigration-related heretical statement and I'll point out at this particular moment that these are statements, some of them I agree with, some of them I certainly don't, but They are thought experiments for discussion.
00:13:42
Speaker
We should open fire on migrant boats attempting to cross the channel. Yeah, so, oh, right. I thought you were going to say, we're gonna I thought you meant we should open fire, and then going to start start with the question, but you meant actually open fire. Literally.
00:13:55
Speaker
Oh, yeah. No, I don't think so. And i don't I don't know if I feel that strongly i either way. I just don't think you can go about killing people who are desperate to come to this country. We need to disincentivize them from coming.
00:14:06
Speaker
I also think that the boat situation, and this is maybe an unpopular or heretical thing to say, even on the, if we can call ourselves the center right or whatever it might be. I think it's a red herring, and really. It's a distraction.
00:14:16
Speaker
The boats, we're talking about thousands of people a year. It sounds very stressful. Every time it is a visceral effect, you see pictures of them coming on the beach and all of those things, and it feels like bloody hell. Ah, they're all coming. And that is a huge problem and it needs to be stopped immediately.
00:14:31
Speaker
But when you line that up alongside the reality of legal immigration, where we're talking about the other year, it was 1.2 million people, that 30,000 or so people who came in through boats is is just, it's a drop in the ocean or drop in the channel, let's say.
00:14:48
Speaker
So, yes, it's important. We need to stop it. And these people are potentially more dangerous. They're undocumented. We don't know who they are. So I can understand the point that, okay, they're more dangerous and worrying than the 1.2 million legal documented immigrants. Okay, I get that point.
00:15:03
Speaker
But the sheer numbers and the way that I think we're going to lose our democracy, we're going to lose out democratically through those numbers. the the The emergency is in our legal immigration.
00:15:15
Speaker
So Starmer and all that, I think it's a problem if we're sitting there saying, stop the boats and saying that's our one issue because they need to learn, they need to be able to change the legal immigration, which I think sounds like it's actually going to be much tougher to do because the boats, okay, you you'll go on. what do you want to say?
00:15:30
Speaker
no well all like No, no, no. For the record, I don't think we should open fire on migrant boats as well. But it is it is a ah very blunt reminder that this is a policy area which relies on disincentives. Now, if you were to hypothetically do that,
00:15:47
Speaker
there would be no more boats tomorrow. It would end that practice. And there could be a philosophical argument to say in the long term that would save more lives. Let's probably park that for now. I want to go to that point that you said around legal migration being a bigger impact on the country and potentially a bigger cultural and economic impact.
00:16:06
Speaker
But also, there was a lovely little line there. Well, when I say lovely... a ah bracing line that you said that ultimately it is that wave of legal migration that could potentially be a threat to our democracy.
00:16:20
Speaker
What did you mean by that? There was a word that I keep forgetting that that is is a Muslim muslim word for ah taking a country by peaceful means.
Threat of Political Islamism
00:16:29
Speaker
I had it on the tip of my tongue, but people will know it. that Is it Hydra or something like that?
00:16:34
Speaker
And and it's it's a method of political Islamism. It is a fact. I wrote about this on my substack yesterday. I lived in Argentina for six years. Now, Argentina is a little bit different to the rest of the countries in Latin America because it had a high Italian influx of immigration, unlike the other countries.
00:16:50
Speaker
So that's why people probably always had a feeling, particularly football fans, they seem to have Italian names. They have Italian gestures. They don't... They don't look and sound like Bolivians and Colombians and so on, right? this Or even Brazilians. There's something very different about them.
00:17:03
Speaker
And that's the Italian influence as opposed to the Spanish and indigenous mix that you get in other places. The other reason for that is because when the conquistadors came to Argentina, they they just killed everyone, the indigenous people.
00:17:15
Speaker
rather than in other countries where they raped them and lived with them or kept them as sort of slaves and things like that. So that's also why you get this kind of mixed look in other countries, but the the Argentinians look like Europeans and act like Europeans.
00:17:28
Speaker
it's We're talking hundreds of years later, after the conquistadors and 100 150 years, I don't don't know exactly, after like the Italians all came in, I guess 120 years or so. ah Over a century later, we see if you have immigration from a certain place,
00:17:43
Speaker
people will start to look and sound like those people and will become those people. I don't know why this is complicated for our politicians. They seem to have forgotten this. Now, that's all well and fine if you take people from a place like Italy, which obviously had its problems in the early nineteen hundreds but at least had a very sophisticated history of wonderful civilization and a culture that worked with whatever Argentina was becoming at that time.
00:18:06
Speaker
Similarly, the UK, I think, would be absolutely happy if you said to most British people, hey, in 100 years, because of immigration and where we're going to get our immigrants from, we're going to start to look a little bit more like Australia and New Zealand and maybe Italy and Spain and countries like that. And we would all go, huh, that's interesting. I don't want to lose our Britishness and our Englishness, but okay, I can see how we can continue in the what the the vein that we're in.
00:18:30
Speaker
To take people from ah civilization that is clearly it clearly runs counter to ours in every possible way, that is utterly illiberal, that treats women, gays, and Jews as a second-class citizenry, i don't know how I don't know how people can't see that democratically,
00:18:47
Speaker
Our own game, they will beat us at our own game. And it might take 10 or 20 years. It might take 30 or 40. But I've seen, again, through cults, I've seen through, I often talk about the Hasidic Jews, who are who are nothing like Muslims in times in terms of violence or anything like that. So please don't misunderstand me, anyone listening.
00:19:03
Speaker
But I did grow up sort of ah around them and close to them. And I know that it's very easy to influence a group by that to say, hey, you should all vote for one person. We need you all to do this one thing for the tribe.
00:19:14
Speaker
It's actually a beautiful thing. And it can be a beautiful thing in Islam and in in Judaism and in any other kind of community. It's this close-knit, beautiful community community where everybody comes together for what they believe is ah is a greater cause.
00:19:27
Speaker
We don't have that. We're a bunch of individualists. ah There's a great point by Matthew Syed when he came on Heretics talk about cousin marriage. We banned cousin marriage in the sixth century, I believe. And over the centuries since then, we became more individualistic. That's what made Europe or or Western civilization what it is, because we no longer had this very tight-knit family.
00:19:47
Speaker
We had the individuals and we had the nation. The nation was our family. it was this wider, bigger thing. We're bringing in people by the by the hundreds of thousands or by the millions who do still engage in cousin marriages, meaning their clans and their communities are a million times stronger then are individuals who are all divided going, who do we vote for? These people, those people.
00:20:07
Speaker
So the reality is they don't need to get ah majority in the country. They would need like 20, 25%. They're currently at about 10% and that has come from nowhere. So another few years, and it's not just winning democratically. I mean, Peter Boghossian, the thinker and ex-professor in the States, he he keeps messaging me saying, guys, you need to surrender.
00:20:27
Speaker
surrender to the Muslims now, they might let you live. And he's actually not being facetious. Now, I think that's a bit extreme, but he really means we should be surrendering. I don't think we're there.
00:20:38
Speaker
And i hope we don't get to a point where they can win in democratically. But they only need a small percentage to start influencing things. And we're seeing that. We have blasphemy laws. We have halal meets everywhere. We have cousin marriage going on.
00:20:52
Speaker
And i can't see how this gets any better unless there's a huge change about where we get our immigration from. Yeah, and of course up until very recently a refusal to investigate the epidemic of grooming gangs across the country.
00:21:08
Speaker
But the other thing which you didn't mention explicitly, but the other big difference between, say, Ascidic Jews and Muslims is that there isn't the same appreciation for the separation between church and state in the Islamic world as there is in most of the Christian and Jewish worlds.
00:21:26
Speaker
But the Haredi Jews do live in their own kind of communities. So they have Haredi Jewish courts, for example. Women are often pressured to stay with men. They are made to, there was arranged marriages.
00:21:37
Speaker
These kinds of things exist outside of our laws. And I think it is a problem, but there's such a small minority, you know, But there isn't the same desire to impose that belief system on non-Jews. In fact, it seems to me to be quite the opposite, actually. They actually want to have their own little you know cultural realm, and they don't want that to extend beyond non-Jews.
00:21:58
Speaker
Yeah, that's absolutely right. And that that's a huge difference. I mean, it's it's a mad thing that we get from the left all the time talking about the Brits being colonizers and the Islamic world has been colonized faster and more aggressively than than any other and continues to do so.
00:22:12
Speaker
It is doing that now. We can all see that happening. So I'm amazed that they don't seem to see that. As for the Jews, there's is about there's about a thousand of us in the world now. I mean, it's like 15 million or something.
00:22:23
Speaker
It's a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage. And it's partly because Jews don't proselytize. They're not really interested in making others do what they do. They just do their own thing. The Haredi Jews are a world onto their own. They're very, very different to is you know ethnic Jews like myself who might be atheist or might have some secular traditions or whatever it might be, who very much assimilate with British or American society. The Haredi Jews do their own thing, but you're you're absolutely right. They don't go about trying to convert people.
00:22:48
Speaker
They just live their life. So Look, they have problems within, and there are problems that I see echoed a thousand times over in the Muslim community, such as a fear of dogs, that's another example, or not always speaking the language of the country in which they grew up.
00:23:02
Speaker
These are all failures to assimilate that I think are To me, slight issues in the Hasidic community. But again, there's there's so few of them in this country and they're all in one little place in North London.
Accusations of Islamophobia
00:23:14
Speaker
We're seeing the effects of Islam, which as you say, is you know promulgating their message and trying to convert all of us around the entire country. There's there's nowhere left now. They're building a mosque now in the in the Lake District.
00:23:26
Speaker
but It's gone. Yeah. Yeah. What do you say to the Western liberal types who would listen to this conversation and then say, well, Will and Andrew are just being Islamophobic?
00:23:38
Speaker
They won't listen. So there's no point. That's the frustrating thing. You know, I've been on, as I'm sure you have, is various shows and had these conversations with, I mean, what they I guess open-minded centrists, I suppose. Someone like Stig Abel on The Times.
00:23:52
Speaker
These are people who are, they're they're good people and they're really smart, intelligent guys. But they they just sort of, I guess when I spoke with Stig, he said, something about Tommy being, i don't I don't want to get it wrong, but it was something negative about Tommy Robinson.
00:24:04
Speaker
And I said, well, what are your examples of that? And I don't think he quite had them. And he was open and he seemed to listen to me. It's just that then it goes back to the, you know, once I've left the room, it's almost like it goes, them it resets whatever's in their mind. It just resets and they go back to, you know, Emily Maitlis just doesn't want to listen to Rupert Lowe and then just says, oh you're just a racist. Well,
00:24:24
Speaker
Whether Rupert Lowe's racist or not, I don't i don't know i you know. Probably not. i would imagine I've not seen anything to suggest that he is. i would say certainly not. Yeah, well, there you go. And listen to what he says rather than just assuming things. So it's a really tough one because I think it's a good question. What would you say to those people and those who say we're Islamophobic? But it's so hard because the vast majority of them just won't even listen. You'll never get the opportunity to say anything to them.
00:24:48
Speaker
but Well, the word Islamophobic is intentionally designed to shut down debate. It's intentionally designed to end the conversation as opposed to opening up a conversation. So that, you're right, is what makes it very, very difficult.
00:25:01
Speaker
You mentioned Tommy Robinson there. We are speaking about two or three weeks after he was the central figure in a rally that went through central London. The official figures of around 150,000 are far too low It was in all likelihood many hundreds of thousands, more than that, whatever you want you quibble over the numbers, there was this enormous groundswell ah around the movement that he led.
00:25:27
Speaker
What is your perspective on Tommy Robinson? Well, I mean, he's he's become a kind of friend, Tommy. i You know what, I think it is for me, from from a young age, one of the things that I found most pathetic, I think, even when I was younger or whatever at school, was a kind of guilt by association or cowardice to stand up for somebody
Defending Tommy Robinson and Class Bias
00:25:53
Speaker
who is doing good because you you fear that other people will judge you.
00:25:59
Speaker
So I don't want to ever do that. And that could be the same. you know If there's some leftist guy who I actually think, you know what, he's all right. I want to be able to say that. And so i want to i don't I don't want to even equivocate. I don't want to say yes, but. you know I don't want to go yes, but.
00:26:13
Speaker
And at at the same time, it's impossible not to say there were issues over the past. There were issues with you know fraud and things like that. He's explained them all. Maybe he's a bit of a nutter, but he was right about the grooming gangs decades before anybody else.
00:26:29
Speaker
And there needs to be a reckoning and there needs to be a re-understanding of Tommy Robinson and what he is and what he represents. Because the idea, above all, that he is racist, that is mental.
00:26:40
Speaker
That is absolutely absurd. And that is what most people in this country who know who Tommy Robinson they will associate him with that word. So I spoke to him recently for the first 10 minutes of the interview.
00:26:51
Speaker
I just said, let's talk about it. I just want to know the truth. Tell me how you feel. Like, what do you think about people who different colors? And what do you think about, can Rishi Sunak be English? And and not that that it not that it would be racist to suggest otherwise, by the way, but just to get ah an idea of where Tommy is on that scale. And Tommy's like damn centrist on all of those things. I mean, he's he's less to the right than most people I interview.
00:27:15
Speaker
He's less to the right than are probably some of the things that maybe Constantine Kissinger said. I think he was, I might be wrong about that. He might be one who argued that Rishi couldn't be English. I think Rishi might have said he can't be English. Whereas Tommy was very much on board with this idea of if you're in the country and you love the country, then you're English.
00:27:32
Speaker
Then that's all he wants. So that's the opposite of racism as far that's real anti-racism as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, I think there is a class element here as well in that so much of the stuff that someone like Tommy Robinson would say on topics like Islam would be the same things that Douglas Murray would say except Douglas Murray says it in an old Etonian accent and has a much better vocabulary.
00:27:55
Speaker
i think there is there is a part of this which is basically saying, well, because Tommy Robinson says things in a way which is sounds like it comes from a working-class background and is rough around the edges,
00:28:07
Speaker
that therefore there must be a motive of racism or bigotry attached to it. Whereas if Douglas says it, it can come across as sounding like it is from high society and therefore more acceptable.
00:28:19
Speaker
Yeah, that there's definitely that's that's definitely true. At the same time, I'm sure nowadays there are many parties and channels and bars and things where Douglas would be barred from as well, particularly as he stuck with Israel and that nothing angers ah these people more than people aligning themselves with Israel.
00:28:35
Speaker
So I think that's going to be more and more difficult for Douglas, but there's definitely a class issue there. and And, you know, look, GB News, I don't think, will have Tommy on. and And look, you know, i I get that there are issues as well. And I don't like what we do sometimes in our kind of, where i' I still don't know what to call it, if it's an anti-woke side or the right or the just whatever it is.
00:28:56
Speaker
I don't like that we we venerate human beings sometimes. And I'd have seen this kind of, it gets a bit sort of, oh, Tommy, Tommy. And, you know, he's a person, he's a human being. And I think when you build him up that much, he's he's going to fail sometimes.
00:29:11
Speaker
He's a human, he's going to have flaws. So, you know, Yeah, I think that's a very human thing, which is not which is agnostic of of political ideology. The left will do it with people like Greta Thunberg or yeah Obama or I don't think any number of people.
00:29:27
Speaker
So I think you're right. i think the left can do it and the right can do it. And it is easiest to say that people are complicated. And I think Tommy Robinson would admit that of himself, that he's probably a very complicated person.
00:29:39
Speaker
But I think you need to divorce that from the message that they are putting across. And to your point, and I did something very similar or na on a GBNU show a few weeks ago with former Defence Minister Bill Rammell, who was doing the whole Tommy Robinson is a far-right figure type thing.
00:29:57
Speaker
And the easiest question in the world in response is, what has Tommy Robinson said which you would define as far-right? And he could not answer. He really struggled to answer. so is It's a difficult one, that one, because yeah I don't want to put people on the spot because sometimes there is, you know, if you said to me, what is it that Greta Thunberg said that's bad or whatever, it would be hard for me to think in the moment. and but But you're right. Like, even if you were to say to that person, okay, go home, spend a week, do some research, then come back.
00:30:24
Speaker
And i still I still don't think you're going to find anything. Yeah, I think there is a slight difference. And I agree that sort of gotcha style stuff doesn't necessarily prove your point. But if you are going to make an evaluation of someone's character, which is slanderous, and this term far right now has become a derogatory slur, you have to be able to substantiate it You have to.
00:30:48
Speaker
I'd also ask them to substantiate what what far right means. I'd go, okay, tell me why Tommy's far right. And now tell me what far right means. Because I don't think most people have any idea. It just means people who don't seem to agree with the authoritarian, violent lunatics on the left.
00:31:02
Speaker
So if that's far right, then I think half the country's far right. Yeah, there's the similar type of linguistic issue that comes up with people like Sadiq Khan who or Stama now, where the common refrain is we must resist people who try and divide us.
00:31:18
Speaker
And almost inevitably, when these people say people who divide us, they mean people we disagree with. Division in politics is a good thing. It is goes to a contest of ideas.
Clichés and Thought-Stopping Techniques
00:31:32
Speaker
But really what they're saying when they say, these people are trying to divide us. It is, there is an accepted narrative, which these people are not buying into, and therefore they need to be shut up in some way, shape or form.
00:31:46
Speaker
And that particular term has really grated on me. And I think it is going to be the central theme that will be in Starmer's speech in the upcoming Labour conference. People who divide us, people who divide us. ah Yeah, it's that's really frustrating because obviously they are in that in that sense, they are dividing people, you know, as well. i find i yeah yeah but yeah I get your point that that's good. There should be some division, but they are also doing the very thing that they are accusing others of.
00:32:11
Speaker
that That kind of the people who divide us or the Islamophobes or the transphobes, that kind of thing, I mean, in cult terms would be thought a thought-terminating cliche. And I speak about these a lot because I think that's a really interesting part of human psychology.
00:32:24
Speaker
if If you buy into it, if you are, you know, hook, line and sink a part of a particular cult, And they're taught they're using their thought-terminating cliche, which in Scientology would be a suppressive person. That gives you permission. And your brain will will just go along with this. It gives you permission to just completely ignore anything that person says.
00:32:41
Speaker
So you can go up to a Scientologist and say, hey, you know, you're like... That Lord Zinu from another planet, that didn't happen, did it? And someone going, no, no, he's a suppressive person. They don't even have to think. It shuts down the thinking. is literally thought terminating.
00:32:55
Speaker
So as soon as they say Islamophobe, there's just no thinking anymore. It just gives them permission. And there's an excellent John Cleese video from, I think, back in the 80s, it looks like, where he talks about the left and the right It's a great video that people should should watch. it's sort of resurfaced relatively recently.
00:33:11
Speaker
He has a go at the left and the right and and makes the point that it's a they they found these ways to be violent and angry and shout at people and still feel good about themselves by labeling the others as basically the others.
00:33:24
Speaker
So that kind of divisive language in itself, the people who divide us, is doing exactly that. He's trying to teach his followers, which are not very many at the moment, and to stop listening to any outside dissent.
00:33:35
Speaker
Thought terminating cliche. I love that expression. And it covers everything from transphobe to Islamophobe, far right, to Nazi, to racist. That's a great way to- We do as well. Yeah, Sorry. yeah We do it woke, often anti-Semite when they're not they're not, you know, they might be and they might have done anti-Semitic things, but but are they actually, you know, are we saying in a way that's going to make us stop thinking about what they actually did?
00:33:57
Speaker
So everyone does it. We've just got to be careful and and try to analyze ourselves. That's interesting whether woke falls into that category. I'm just trying to noodle in my mind as to Yeah, ah you if for many people, it probably would be. I think that's that's a fair that's a very fair
Leadership: EQ vs IQ
00:34:11
Speaker
point.
00:34:11
Speaker
Let's change tack. You got your first interview in with a former prime minister relatively recently, Liz Truss. The statement would be Liz Truss was right. There's an argument for it. I mean, so so this is where, as a you know talking head YouTube person, I have to admit fallibility, which is I'm not good on the economy.
00:34:31
Speaker
And I think we all have our strengths. And this is something that as i as my channel's grown, I've tried to think, oh gosh, you know, I have these weaknesses and this is where, but then I think, you know what, I'll i'll let Constantine deal with that stuff because he's got that big brain. And i i i don't i don't, I'm so much more about people for me.
00:34:49
Speaker
That's why it started with cults. So when I look at wokeness or whatever, it's like, wow, those how did those people all start believing in same things? That's what that's what motivates me. but let Let me reframe the question then. What were your reflections to speaking to Liz Tross?
00:35:02
Speaker
Very, very strange. She's a very strange person, but but nice and laughs and can be fun. It's good fun at a party. She knows a lot of things that I don't know.
00:35:16
Speaker
you know I'm trying to be fair and fairly sort of simple about this because I just want, you know, she knows what she's talking about. she She's not like some dim, silly, whatever. She she spent years and years as as heads of various departments learning about the way the country works.
00:35:35
Speaker
From what I can gather after my warning about me not being any kind of economic exp expert and and and her failure, if we can call it that, is very much related to the economy.
00:35:46
Speaker
My understanding is that we're at a much worse place now with Starmer than we were even at her peak worst part. And she was watching what was going on, I suppose, in the world with the likes of Millet in Argentina, who just ripped everything up and said, no, this is no good anymore. We need a new way of doing things.
00:36:00
Speaker
And it seems to be working for Argentina. Everything's much more expensive over there for us as well. If you go over on holiday, it's now expensive, but it's more of a functioning economy. I think some people are obviously not doing very well, but they've had terrible, terrible troubles for so many years.
00:36:14
Speaker
And suddenly they're looking quite good. El Salvador is suddenly looking quite good. So I think Trust wasn't given a chance. And I think there probably is a stronger establishment vibe in the UK that maybe you didn't get in these kind of Latino countries, in these like Latino countries that you get here, that any kind of change, you are out.
00:36:32
Speaker
So some people say she went about it too quickly or too strong. But I mean, Millet went around with a ah chainsaw. screaming in the streets of Argentina, shouting about how he had his dog cloned five times and his dog told him to become president. And all of that stuff didn't seem to matter so much over there.
00:36:50
Speaker
Over here, we have this ingrained deep state, as they call it, which sounds like some kind of scary... conspiratorial thing, but actually means there's a bunch of people who are unelected, who are basically civil servants, who are not particularly smart or intelligent, who work in the government and won't let even the prime minister change things.
00:37:07
Speaker
And that is extremely worrying because right now we are faced with an emergency, I think, and they're not going to do very much about it. Thinking about your insight where you said she's very, so well, she's she's very strange, but she's also, she knows a lot of things.
00:37:21
Speaker
You know, she she she's certainly not unintelligent. And my thoughts when i when I reflect on that trust period and people like trust is the requirement for EQ and IQ in leadership.
00:37:34
Speaker
And it would feel like, and we often just say now that the current batch of politicians are a woeful or incredibly mediocre compared to the past. I think a part of it is that you just don't have people that can balance EQ and ah IQ in the way that people like.
00:37:49
Speaker
And I'm going to say some names that of leaders that that many listeners won't find agreeable, but you can't deny that people like Blair, people like Clinton, people like even someone like a David Cameron had a balance of EQ, charm, being able to engage with people, being able to connect And then the ah IQ side, being able to understand policy, being able to have intellectual horsepower to win an argument.
00:38:13
Speaker
They had both of those things. There are very few modern politicians that have a balance of EQ and IQ. Trust, from what I can see, had very low EQ.
00:38:23
Speaker
Starmer has no EQ. Someone like Kemi Badenoch would appear to have very low e two it It would feel like we don't develop leaders now that can actually balance the people side of politics with the intellectual side of politics.
00:38:39
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a good point. And and's especially in in ah an era in which we are voting very much for the EQ side of things, I think. And maybe Trump shows that. Although whether he, i mean, Trump could have a very low or a very high IQ and I would have, not it neither would surprise me. It's very hard to pin down his intelligence, but emotionally, he's certainly very smart.
00:38:59
Speaker
I think Kemi Badenoch or Badenoch, she seems he seems all right to me. li Liz, yeah, liz is it's very hard for Liz because I don't know. i mean, I almost see her as ah a kind of, not ah not necessarily a friend, but someone I've seen at various events. and We've always had a nice chat and everything and she's fun and interesting. So it almost feels like, you know, gossiping about someone, you know, not based on their politics, but based on their emotional capabilities and whether there are... But she she is slightly odd. she I don't know if she's on some sort of spectrum. and And the worst part about that is I wouldn't know how to explain that to her, why she comes across that way.
00:39:31
Speaker
It'd be really hard to do.
Challenges with Mainstream Media
00:39:32
Speaker
I had, a again, a recent thing on Ian Dale's show on LBC, and we had... James Bloodworth was on. and and i was and And James Bloodworth and I, ah he's a great journalist, James, who wrote this book about infiltrating Amazon and the you know this sort of lefty book about the horrors, like the left was supposed to do, the like you know having a go at corporations before they just aligned with them. So I've got a lot of time for James, but I disagree with everything he said about you know immigration and all those things. And i think I think he's really weak on those things. But
00:40:02
Speaker
But he's got personality. And before we went on, I bumped in into him across the road from the studio. and Oh, hey, you're on tonight. Hello, how you doing, mate? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then afterwards, you walk down to the station. All right, mate, I'll wear you off to. You got off on your summer holidays.
00:40:14
Speaker
There was also a politician there called Alison Hulme. who is a labor politician. And it's like ah it's like a robot, just comes in, sort of nods strangely. And again, I feel bad because she's probably a really nice person. She probably has a family.
00:40:26
Speaker
She doesn't want to be talked about that way. Maybe it was just a bad day for her. But that's been my experience with most politicians. They're quite odd. They're odd. They don't know how to make conversation.
00:40:37
Speaker
They don't show much interest in it. They don't seem to know what they're talking about when And I thought that was nonsense. When I was younger, I used to think, oh, they're just having a go at politicians. But of course, they they know what they're talking about. They don't. they they Especially this kind of podcast, our kind of talking points, that is they know nothing about it. It's a foreign language to them.
00:40:54
Speaker
But more importantly, I think in terms of EQ, they're not all there. And you've got to think what kind of person wants to become a politician. Who wants that kind of power? who wants to be organ you know When you're at the top, fine, but spending years and years organizing you know the the train schedule or who's what time buses should arrive. and Who wants to do that? What kind of person are we attracting, particularly on relatively middling salaries?
00:41:18
Speaker
Who are we attracting to do those things? And I think they are quite middling people. Yeah, I agree. On that little adventure back into the mainstream media, you obviously had a career at the BBC and then through various ideological differences and cancellation controversies, you moved on and and into now a wildly successful independent media career and book career or writing career.
00:41:44
Speaker
How have you found it when you have dipped your toes back into mainstream media engagements like that one? Well, first I should clarify with the BBC because I'm a bit misleading in my my taglines. I say for like fallen BBC journalist because i love how that sounds.
00:41:58
Speaker
The reality wouldn't sound as good in a little snippet, which would be sold a documentary to the BBC and then was treated terribly by them for being a white man. And and it was just nuts. Yeah. but But yeah, that I never really was in, in.
00:42:12
Speaker
And I never could get in, in. It was always, you look too much like Louis Theroux or we need people from different backgrounds. It was always that kind of thing. I think what I have found whenever there has been an opportunity, so so the first thing to say is a lot of celebrities from the mainstream watch heretics.
00:42:29
Speaker
And I believe they're watching heretics. ah several of our podcasts, you know, they they are watching these things because they don't all actually just agree with this progressive stuff. Or even when they do, some of them are curious about, you know, so you can look up some celebrities on Twitter and see who they're following. And some will be following me or or maybe you or maybe Constantine and those kinds of people.
00:42:48
Speaker
They're keeping an eye on us. They're watching us. And sometimes they'll get in touch and we'll go for dinner. and We'll have conversations where we say, hey, then they say, you know what, we've got to get you back on the mainstream. We've got to get you on TV. Would you do this kind of documentary with me? Would you do a series with me? Would you do with that?
00:43:03
Speaker
And I say to them, you I appreciate that very much. You have no idea how hard it will be to brute to for you to walk back in that, no matter how famous you are at the BBC, to walk back in that door with me on your, you know, it it is it's not happening.
00:43:19
Speaker
And that doesn't mean that I want it to happen necessarily, or that it couldn't happen in the future. I always say, okay, look, maybe let's talk about it. ah let's let's let's see, you know, it would have to fall into my lap. Some called it's kind of series looking at cancel culture around the world or who knows what.
00:43:35
Speaker
But what I wouldn't do ever now is sit down like they made me do countless times and write out a pitch deck and spend hours and hours and days and weeks and years. And then somebody there doesn't like me because of my views. Now, the initial problem was my skin color.
00:43:49
Speaker
Now, the views I've come out with about particularly trans, I think that's the worst one for them, even though no one really talks about trans anymore because it's sort of Finnish. but immigration certainly. So it's a hard one.
00:44:00
Speaker
are you i sort of I really want to make heretics in the future more mainstream accessible, partly because it opens up a whole range of new famous faces or big political figures or whoever who could come on the podcast, but partly because I do feel we're all just shouting into the wind. We're just in an echo chamber here.
00:44:17
Speaker
but We're all talking to one another. And if you can make something into a very main, I mean, Joe Rogan was good at this. I know it's seen as kind of right wing, but he was very centrist for many years. And yet Professor Brian Cox would go on.
00:44:30
Speaker
Louis Theroux would go on. And so he could reach those audiences and influence them. The challenge for you, though, would be how do you do that in a way which doesn't dilute the essence of what makes the show special?
00:44:41
Speaker
Yeah, so you do a kind of, the idea would be yeah to test it and and see if it works. But what Rogan would do, for example, you know, Louis Theroux would be one week, then there'd be some kind of astrophysicist talking about the future of space or whatever, which was fascinating.
00:44:56
Speaker
Then he would have some of that kind of conspiratorial, you know, there were people living before us or history. I don't think I would go down that route. I'm not really interested in that. But then it'd have on some really anti-woke person who would describe the hypocrisies.
00:45:07
Speaker
And I just think if you're getting enough of those people who are coming in to watch Professor Brian Cox, aren't that political. But then they go, hey, I like this channel. I like seeing these celebrities.
00:45:18
Speaker
Now let me watch another one. Oh, who's just come on? Oh, it's Will Kingston's now on. what What's he saying? Oh, he seems very reasonable. But oh, he doesn't seem to agree with the things I'm seeing in the newspaper and the TV. I think that's how you can actually influence things.
00:45:30
Speaker
And I think we're in, like I've said before, we're in an emergency right now. We're a real situation. And people need, I think more than anything else, more than the economy, but there are so many problems, but more than anything else, people need to realize that there's a difference between criticizing people for their immutable features, such as race or IQ or you know or whatever, saying we can't be friends with them because they are this thing.
00:45:51
Speaker
and criticizing people for their beliefs, which isn't just shouldn't just be acceptable, but is the essence, is the cornerstone of our society. So it shouldn't just be like, hey, people, you need to realize you can criticize people's beliefs.
00:46:01
Speaker
They actually need to be encouraged to do that. And until they realize, until they get that message into their heads, and that will happen through celebrities telling them that, people are going to continue just being completely apathetic about the immigration emergency we have.
Potential Civil Unrest in the UK
00:46:15
Speaker
Your warning cry, we are in an emergency right now, leads me to my final heretical statement, and it is inspired by someone that we've had on our respective shows, Professor David Betts.
00:46:28
Speaker
He's a professor of warfare at his Imperial College, King's College? One of them. One of the London one, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. One of the two. And hey he looks at civil war specifically in his studies.
00:46:43
Speaker
the statement would be that the UK will face civil war in some form before this decade is out. In some form, yes. I think things are going to get bad and it will happen across Europe. What Professor David Betts said is that civil wars tend to start in one place and spread. So it could be that it really breaks out first in Germany or France or Holland.
00:47:05
Speaker
One of those countries, the sort of those are maybe the big three in Europe that it could happen to before hopefully before the UK if it happens at all and maybe gives us pause for thought. But as he said, that it could spread to us at that moment.
00:47:18
Speaker
We've seen how quickly, as you said before, the the left will go to violence when they don't get their way. Italy didn't want to recognize but a Palestinian state and and reward Hamas for what they did by giving them a state.
00:47:28
Speaker
And everyone went completely nuts and started smashing everything in Italy. A few more events like that around Europe, but it will boil over. And at what there has to be a point at which I think that the rights start pushing back. And I don't mean there has to be as in I encourage it. I just mean I think that's going to happen.
00:47:44
Speaker
I didn't like Elon Musk's rhetoric at the Unite the Kingdom rally. he was sort of he seemed to imply we need to start becoming violent. I don't want us to ever become violent, but I'm also aware that maybe that's a luxury belief right now.
00:47:58
Speaker
I don't know what's going to happen in the future. So, yeah, you know... these These are things that i take very seriously, and i i talk about it as an emergency when I'm off screen as well. I talk with my family. We all talk about it, particularly for, you know, we're Jews. You know, the the Jews are really worried.
00:48:15
Speaker
It's an interesting thing to see. The Jews who historically have been kind of a bit lefty over the years, so particularly in that kind of McCarthy area um in America, were seen as like the Marxists or whatever. And that's what Hitler saw them as as well.
00:48:26
Speaker
But the Jews are like... fully aware of what's happening on the left and and with political Islamism. So when I walk around Jewish areas, that's when I get most people coming over and going, thank you so much for what you're doing because they're on board.
00:48:38
Speaker
But so what I mean is, I mean, the reason I say that is because i don't want people thinking that this is just entertainment, you know, all civil war. And we're just like, okay, entertaining. and then we turn off. This is very real. This is something I spoke with Professor Betts about after we finished recording.
00:48:52
Speaker
I was saying, look, this is where I'm moving to because I'm moving home. is this dangerous? what What shall I do? And he spoke to me about, look, he and he it sounds cuckoo, you know, it sounds cuckoo, but you've got to listen, at least listen and and and and go maybe. And he said, the M25 will be sort of a cutoff point where people will border up and because the cities is where would being <unk> we're losing what it is to be British fastest.
00:49:17
Speaker
And it might be a kind of urban versus rural situation. Yeah, I think it only sounds cuckoo if you think of civil war in the context of cavaliers and roundheads lining up in a field, you know, shooting in each other in orderly rows.
00:49:30
Speaker
And it obviously wouldn't be that. But we're already seeing but more and more sectarian violence. We're already seeing an increasingly frustrated nativist element that feel like that they haven't been listened to in terms of ah their political leadership.
00:49:48
Speaker
We're already seeing a growing... Islamist threat. So when you add all of these different things together, it certainly isn't outside the realms of possibility that those groups develop greater levels of coordination.
00:50:04
Speaker
And as a result of that, you see higher level skirmishes and and which would lead to to coordinated and more widespread violence, which is yeah he's incredibly concerning.
00:50:15
Speaker
And you can't turn it back. like People talk about deportations, but that's that's not that's not realistic for millions of people. you know ah You can't turn this back. And we've we've seen that wherever there have been ethnicities placed together in close proximity,
00:50:31
Speaker
without people actually voting for that, there have been all kinds of tensions and wars. I mean, that's what Yugoslavia was about. It was all these different ethnicities, different so beliefs, different cultures that they tried to shove together and make into one kind of thing.
00:50:43
Speaker
And it ended terribly. So when you think of it in that context, You know, we started this podcast by talking about Tony Blair and how horrible it is to wish for his death. And that is something I you know but believe in in fully, not his death, but and but but but that we should not ever be wishing for that kind of thing.
00:51:01
Speaker
Or even thinking of him as ah as a bad person. I don't think he necessarily is. ah politically But what a stupid, short-sighted thing it was to do to encourage something that he called, and they all called multiculturalism,
00:51:13
Speaker
which made people think, oh, that means don't be racist to black people, but actually meant the balkanization of the UK, was unbelievably short-sighted and stupid. Stupid.
00:51:24
Speaker
But people make stupid decisions. China's one-child policy. They did that and i understood, okay, too many people, whatever. And it's amazing that all these clever scientists in China Nobody thought, yeah, but in 20 years, we're going to have a situation where we've got too many old people and we can't actually afford to keep them around. What are we going to do there? Nobody even thought that. Not even one person went, wait a second.
00:51:43
Speaker
And 20 years later, they went, oh, shoot, we've screwed that up. you know So people do stupid things in politics and I don't want him hurt in any way. I'd love to talk to him.
00:51:53
Speaker
I think he probably seems like he means well and he's a nice bloke and all of that. It's very charismatic. But my God, And the other point to make is, yes, he he screwed up the country, but um every other European country did the same.
00:52:04
Speaker
So everyone's done the same thing. And Australia. So maybe there was something, as we talk about the deep state, maybe there was just something inevitable about the way that our liberalism was set up. And that's very hard for maybe a liberal, if I am that, I like to call myself that, to admit to.
00:52:18
Speaker
But there might have been a fundamental issue that liberalism simply doesn't work when there is another culture that is illiberal and would like to come and take over your culture. Yeah, that's where I am getting to in my political journey as well. And it's ah it's now pretty well established that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. And that liberal project, whilst well-intentioned, has led to some very, very dark outcomes that we're now grappling with.
Conclusion and Where to Find Andrew's Work
00:52:44
Speaker
Andrew, where can people hear slash watch heretics as well as read more of your thoughts? Get over to Heretics. It's on Spotify and it's on YouTube. And Spotify, we've got the videos as well. So it's all HD and beautiful beautifully shot. Everything's done in person.
00:53:00
Speaker
We've just had ah Rupert Lowe. We've got, oh, there's a big star coming out coming out soon. Do you know when this will go out? It will go out in a few hours, so very soon. Oh, okay. I can't say who it is, but there's a big star who's who's coming out and being, you know, as a sort of Heretics fan.
00:53:15
Speaker
So yeah, do that. Don't worry about the rest of it. just Just come and follow Heretics. to a wonderful book at the, the, the psychology of secrets, the psychology of secrets, my adventures with murderers, cults and influencers. So that's, yeah, that's more kind of from my old, you know, it's, it's less about the woke stuff, but there is a lot that is very relevant to that, but it's all about the way that cults formed and Scientology and all those kinds of things. And the way that influencers can sometimes go a bit that way at all as well. And everything's a bit culty. So people seem to enjoy that book.
00:53:47
Speaker
and Do yourself a favor, go out and grab a copy. Andrew, I always love these chats, mate. Thank you for coming on the show. Thanks for having me.