Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Multiculturalism is a delusion, with Harry Saul Markham
2.5k Plays1 day ago
The war in Gaza has revealed some ugly realities of life in modern Britain: antisemitism, the failures of multiculturalism, and sectarian violence to name but a few. Whilst the war may (hopefully) be coming to an end, the problems at home remain. Has the multicultural melting pot melted? Will is joined by author of the new book, ‘The Melted Pot: Diversity, Antisemitism, and the Limits of Tolerance’, Harry Saul Markham.
Follow Will Kingston and Fire at Will on social media here.
Read The Spectator Australia here.
Buy 'The Melted Pot' here.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Theme
00:00:19
Speaker
G'day and welcome to Fire at Will. I'm Will Kingston. The war in Gaza has unearthed some uncomfortable truths about Britain's multicultural society.
00:00:33
Speaker
Sectarian violence, the rise of anti-Semitism, and a feeling that cultural and social cohesion are fraying at the seams.
00:00:44
Speaker
Now we are hearing promising news that maybe that conflict is if not coming to an end, maybe, there may be progress. Do you think, therefore, that progress in our country will follow?
00:01:00
Speaker
I'm not so sure. In fact, I would suggest that that multicultural melting pot may well have melted, which is a not-so-subtle segue to my wonderful guest today, author of The Melted Pot, Harry Markham. Harry, welcome to Fire at Will.
00:01:19
Speaker
Thank you for having me, Will. Pleasure to be here.
Critique of Multiculturalism
00:01:22
Speaker
my Pleasure to have you on. Something which I've noticed doing this podcast is that authors who have gone to the trouble of writing a book get pissed off if the first question isn't, what is the book about?
00:01:34
Speaker
So tell me, what is the book about? Well, you're asking me, how'd you expect me to know that? Well, in short, ah The book is about exploring what I see as the delusion, not the failure of multiculturalism.
00:01:52
Speaker
In brief, that's what it is. But I finished the initial manuscript on the 5th of October, 2023. So two days before October 7th, which meant I had to... obtain Interesting, Tommy.
00:02:06
Speaker
Well, interesting timing, but also slightly inconvenient because I had to, you know, change a few things around. But really what my book looks at is how the issues which have since become mainstream since it's October 7th, the cultural, intellectual and philosophical foundations of those issues.
00:02:27
Speaker
Because October seventh did not invent the problems we see today. It merely accentuated what has been really brewing for the p past several decades.
00:02:39
Speaker
And my book is a modest effort to interrogate where we have gone so dreadfully wrong through our own delusional thinking. and i what are What are those problems that you are referring to?
00:02:53
Speaker
Well, I think, for one, I take a particular interest in anti-Semitism. That's certainly one of them. I think the erasure of liberal liberalism with a sense of teeth, ah liberals who are willing to say there are some things we are not prepared to tolerate in a civilized society, the general breakdown of social cohesion, and the inability of well-intentioned people to say, if you will, the bleeding obvious.
00:03:23
Speaker
about the fact that there are some things in a liberal society that we have to be able to call out. And we have to be able to articulate the points the likes of, say, Rupert Lowe or even his former compatriots at Reform are atic are articulating.
00:03:41
Speaker
and i'm And my book is trying to encourage those on the centre or those who identify as being on the centre to have some more courage in saying these things. Because they fundamentally matter.
00:03:55
Speaker
They matter for the sake of people within a country, but they matter for democracy itself and the failure to even say these things, much less even give them a name. is extremely problematic to say the least.
Courage in Publishing and Dialogue
00:04:08
Speaker
That word courage is interesting and I will shamelessly self-promote on a podcast which is to bitu promote you. But I've literally just finished speaking with Megan Kelly and she asked me for some final thoughts.
00:04:21
Speaker
And my final thoughts were that the only QR for cancel culture is courage culture. And so it is only through books like yours that we actually can actually build that courage muscle to have these difficult conversations.
00:04:37
Speaker
So let's actually start. and Yeah, talked but talk to me about that. Let's let's let's let's let's go for the human story for it first and then we can look at the themes of the book. Talk to me about how that all happened.
00:04:47
Speaker
Well, a a perfectly liberal publisher, who I will not name, just to avoid getting into legal trouble or any more legal trouble, perhaps,
00:04:58
Speaker
didn't had I was about to sign a contract from them and they withdrew their offer of publication because they did not want to inflame tensions. There were particular concerns that this these issues are far too contentious for them to even discuss.
00:05:14
Speaker
And so they withdrew their offer. ah And to be honest with you, i really struggled finding a publisher in London. I couldn't. British publishers would not touch it. we had you know even Even after we got these sort of really great endorsements and stuff, it proved extremely difficult.
00:05:32
Speaker
And I'll also say that the book itself is, you know if if they thought of it as being you know extreme or racist, I must be the worst extremist racist ever. Because like the whole point of the book, well, one of the main points is to give a voice to people from all faiths, particularly in our Muslim communities, who are not heard, who are often ignored and silenced by members of their own communities.
00:05:56
Speaker
And in that sense, you would think that liberals would have some sense of solidarity to those with dissenting opinions. Well, perish the thought. So a liberal publisher withdrew their offer, and thankfully in America there is now um ah ah a publisher that's really committed to free speech. It's called Academica Press.
00:06:15
Speaker
And they took the book on.
Flaws of Multiculturalism
00:06:17
Speaker
But it has been, you know, it's been, it's been ruddy hard trying to get it into bookshops and other places, because frankly, even though it's a pretty sort of, if you will, wishy-washy book, it's still, because it even talks about things like Islamism, it discusses some of the very real issues we see with multiculturalism,
00:06:37
Speaker
the publishing, the book world, stay well away from it. We can get into, because I think that is a fascinating conversation on liberalism and the way that we still need to promote Western liberal values, but also recognize the limits of liberalism.
00:06:57
Speaker
Was it Popper's paradox of tolerance? Brilliant. That sort of thing. We'll get to that. What were some of the things in the book to frame this for our viewers and our listeners?
00:07:07
Speaker
What were some of the things that the publishers that you were speaking to would have perceived as being controversial? They never mentioned specifics, which the lack of mention of specifics in itself is ah is is a curious thing.
00:07:22
Speaker
Because what exactly were they opposed to, or what exactly did they think would raise concerns? I will say, since the publication of the book, the only opposition I've had to it has come from members of the extreme right, not the right that's right so far, but the extreme right, talking sort of ethno-nationalist, Christian nationalist right who don't like it because I defend ah particular virtue that I see in diverse societies.
00:07:50
Speaker
But I think this publisher, as well as others that may have been concerned about the idea that talking about Islamism, as I do, because one of the sort of major intellectual disagreements I have is with the terms extremism and the idea that we need to view Islamism as a kind of fringe phenomenon or something that that that needs to be dealt with by just getting rid of some nasty individuals.
00:08:20
Speaker
you know, silencing them, arresting them and so on. I actually reject that. I look at the sort of normalization, if you will, the banality of extremist thinking.
00:08:30
Speaker
In that sense, then, I articulate a point of view that rejects the idea that there are extremist views, extremist view, but there is an extremist intellectual foundation which exists in swathes of our Muslim communities and that in turn produces people that do extreme things.
00:08:51
Speaker
But those people, and this was quite, I think, interesting also about some of the horrendous anti-Semitic incidents we've seen over the past few years, the people involved in these incidents are not extremists in the sense that they're sort of conversant in the intellectual writings of Islamist ideologues or people that necessarily would be able to recite the Hamas charter or the charter of the Muslim Brotherhood.
00:09:18
Speaker
They're not like that. They're ordinary Muslim people in their communities and but largely men who subscribe to ideas that surround them in these communities.
00:09:30
Speaker
And that's the point. That's what we've tolerated. And that's the kind of thing that worries me because it's it's it's it's about the entrenched culture in large swathes of these communities that produces the the that the few that go out and commit acts of depraved fanaticism.
00:09:50
Speaker
Let me see if I can summarize this for the four dummies guide. For the last 20 to 30, maybe longer period of time, years, countries like the UK and Australia have embraced a policy of multiculturalism.
00:10:06
Speaker
Multiculturalism is based off the philosophy of liberalism, which is you should be allowed effectively believe what you want to the extent it doesn't hurt other people.
00:10:18
Speaker
Problem is that there are certain cultures that now have been brought into those countries by virtue of mass migration. where those beliefs are not compatible with Western liberal democratic values.
00:10:32
Speaker
And this is where we get back to that paradox I mentioned earlier, the paradox of tolerance. If you tolerate the intolerant, eventually intolerance will reign supreme and you will have an intolerant society.
00:10:45
Speaker
i am I am paraphrasing, but if this is the conversation, the first question has to be, do you think multiculturalism has failed? No, I don't think it's failed. I think it's a delusion.
00:10:57
Speaker
What's the difference? The difference, well, a failure would suggest that the idea itself is in any way laudable, that there is merit to the idea that you can achieve a society that is cohesive and unified with an absence of a shared framework by which all people live, right?
00:11:17
Speaker
A failure would be that idea just wouldn't work in reality. Well, I think to even think of that idea itself is delusional because how do you expect to create a society that is anything in any way meaningfully united or cohesive if you have an absence of she of a shared cultural framework?
Cultural Challenges of Islam
00:11:42
Speaker
Multiculturalism to me isn't isn't just a kind of policy, it's it's a philosophy. It's a philosophy that views culture all cultures on being on an equal footing. And therefore, on the part of the dominating culture, and people would shrink from the word dominating, right?
00:11:59
Speaker
But the the idea of there even being a dominating culture is anathema to people who are proponents of multiculturalism. And the idea that you subscribe to a dominating culture is wrong. and For that reason, the European Union has its motto, unity and diversity, right?
00:12:18
Speaker
My view is, is that we need diversity and unity. You can have people of different ethnic and cultural groups, right? But on a condition, on a very strict and enforced condition,
00:12:32
Speaker
that they respect and embrace the prevailing dominating culture. But you will never get that. You will never get that unless liberals are willing to accept the limits of their own magnanimity.
00:12:49
Speaker
If they're refusing to accept that you will have a society in which disorder and violence and anti-Semitism and all these kinds of other things we've seen, particularly since October 7th, these things are all inevitable without that shared framework.
00:13:07
Speaker
I agree entirely, and I think hearing it put very eloquently and in a very measured way is important because we do hear this argument put in a more strident and and intolerant way.
00:13:21
Speaker
What we're saying, multi-ethnicism can work. Multiculturalism, on the other hand, particularly if it is a multiculturalism that doesn't have the overarching culture of the native country guiding it, is a problem.
00:13:37
Speaker
Here's the thing which I think about. In Australia, Australia has long proud prided itself as being a multicultural country. In the 50s and 60s and 70s, you had a lot of Greeks, you had a lot of Italians, you had a lot, even people from Southeast Asia and China who would come.
00:13:53
Speaker
And a lot of people said, you know what, this is a pretty good deal because you get great Greek restaurants and Australian values. Something's changed in the multicultural mix in the last 15 to 20 years, both in Australia and the UK.
00:14:09
Speaker
And the elephant in the room, as I suspect you know where I'm going, is Islam. Now, if you are a Greek and you bring your Greek culture to Leichhardt in Sydney, that works.
00:14:24
Speaker
There is something that has happened. How much of this conversation is specifically a conversation around the problem of multiculturalism as a concept, and how much of this is specifically we have a problem with Islam in Western liberal democracies?
00:14:41
Speaker
Well, it's the theoretical foundations of multiculturalism are flawed. And that, in a sense, provides the fertile ground for the problems we see today, particularly with playing But playing devil's advocate, if I do do the whole, you know, yeah the Greek guy bringing bringing the food and bringing kind of the the, you know, some would argue that is multiculturalism, you know, and and that some would argue that that has worked.
00:15:13
Speaker
Some would argue that that part isn't flawed. And I understand this is a definitional debate in some respect. No, no, no, no, sure, sure. Well, the case of... the case of Western European Islam is where we see the consend the that the kind of major problems we are seeing within the kind of multicultural framework, right?
00:15:38
Speaker
That's where the problem is. Now, as a my view is is that the the problems itself have emerged because of the flawed framework, because that fraud that flawed framework is the ideological backbone of contemporary liberalism.
00:16:00
Speaker
It's how liberals think about the world around them. So yes, the problem is very much today does very much exist within Western European Islam.
Nation-State and Cultural Values
00:16:11
Speaker
It emerges within Western European Islam.
00:16:14
Speaker
But that's to no small degree because Western European liberals ah are in some ways the products of an intellectual framework in which they have come to be reluctant to assert the supremacy of their own values, right?
00:16:34
Speaker
And so in turn, inevitably, inevitably, that you are going to see conflict. And it just happens to be that it's most common within, or most commonly seen within Western European Islam.
00:16:51
Speaker
And the way I, yeah, Well, that's a very good segue to how did we get here? How did we get to the point where that framework emerged? You see, after the war, the...
00:17:04
Speaker
the motto of the European Union, and I concentrate on Western Europe, but the motto of the European Union was that we need to think beyond the nation state. Okay.
00:17:15
Speaker
That was in fact the the the the words exactly from from, I think it's founding president or someone very high up. I can't remember who exactly. I write about book. But think beyond the nation state. Now, the nation state itself is is defined by borders, by shared culture, and again, this important word, shared framework.
00:17:38
Speaker
The European Union was conceived of basically saying we need to think beyond those things, because those things, according to this particular philosophy, were seen as basically providing the foundations for fascism in Europe.
00:17:53
Speaker
So the idea of national thinking, right? course in the Of course, to people who who were just writing think writing and speaking after the war, was seen as the foundation of Nazism or fascism in Italy and elsewhere, right?
00:18:11
Speaker
And so the nation state itself was bad, and so were all the kind of other bits which flow from the nation state, right? Right? the the So the the emergence of this particular philosophy has been brewing since 1945, and it's had particular certain moments where it's really taken off.
00:18:33
Speaker
I think in the British context, this really did begin with Blair. and i And I think in some sense also, one can also say that the kind of beginning of the atomization of society was also the product of Thatcherism, right? Thinking in terms of thinking in terms of the individual as opposed to the notion of society and collective responsibility. And that in turn provided the foundations for what Blair did and what subsequent so-called conservative governments have done.
00:19:05
Speaker
And of course, this has been taken on steroids by Keir Starmer. These things have been developing throughout the years. But ultimately, What we need to see is a radical seismic paradigm shift in liberal thinking, in how liberals think. And the only way you will see that, I think, is by radical political change.
00:19:29
Speaker
let's get Let's get to the what happens next a bit later. um Because I can hear my audience cheering loudly when you said that the problem started with Blair and maybe the odd tut-tut when you brought Thatcher into it as well.
00:19:45
Speaker
I'm sure. But I also think first principles are important here because sometimes when I make these sorts of arguments and everything you've said, I agree with. When I make these arguments on JV News or on this podcast, sometimes you forget that the first principles matter. So but let's start with why there are many ways to organize the world, to organize societies.
Cultural Equivalence and Morality
00:20:06
Speaker
The nation state is a relatively recent invention. We've had empires. We've had different ways of organizing the way that people live their lives. Why is the the fundamental for your argument, the nation state? Why does the nation state matter?
00:20:22
Speaker
The nation state represents not merely a physical boundary between different civilizations with different values. It represents fundamentally a metaphoric and even metaphysical one. It represents a separation and a sense that we are willing to protect the values within the boundaries of our society.
00:20:42
Speaker
It's why the term borders matters. It matters not just as as a means of protecting yourself from from, but it matters in terms of what it what happens within the state itself, right? The boundaries between different cultures and groups.
00:20:58
Speaker
And so if you eradicate the nation state, there is a kind of commensurate thinking, which is then therefore that you're going to have to think in terms of a universalism.
00:21:11
Speaker
So you lose the particular and the universalism, the universal values system cut idea kicks in. So that would mean then, so the idea that, yes, we should go and espouse the rights and dignities of women, gay people, et cetera, all wonderful beliefs.
00:21:25
Speaker
But the the the failure on the part of liberals is to think, well, do other cultures think like that? This is the thing. to to to to to To simplify, you know, for the dummies in the back, of which I probably put myself in that category, you know, what we're really saying is that not all cultures are equal, right?
00:21:45
Speaker
Well, they can't be. Go on. To me, it's a morally outrageous statement to suggest that our culture, which protects minorities, that defends free speech,
00:21:59
Speaker
that protects the rights and dignity of all people, particularly those targeted, women, gay people, etc., to suggest that this culture, which has gone through years oh of of of internal strife to be what it is today, is on the same footing as some cultures which indulge in FGM, throwing gay people off buildings and...
00:22:26
Speaker
a host of other abominable acts suggest that those two things are morally comparable is insane. And indeed, it's fundamentally part of the whole kind of self-effacing ritual of our liberals today, that that that that they they are so scared to say, and I talk about this, the politics of fear in the book, but they are so scared to be able to say, look,
00:22:50
Speaker
We have our way of life here and we welcome people of all different backgrounds. so I had the pleasure of working with the oldest British Muslim organisation. I worked with plenty of people who have different cultural beliefs and and and that's fine.
00:23:05
Speaker
But if you do not accept, if you do, if you deviate from some of the the most fundamental principles of a liberal civilisation, And then your liberals end up saying, well, they're just different. And or they end up saying, well, yeah, but, you we can all live side by side and together. Well, it's not just absurd.
00:23:26
Speaker
You end up doing, you end up actually self-negating. You end up creating so a state in which you end up tolerating things which really despise you.
00:23:38
Speaker
right? And that, as I see it, is probably the most burning issue within the kind of cultural liberal orbit today, that we've ended up, through our own delusion, even stupidity, lending tolerance to aspects of cultures which fundamentally, at their core, loathe our way of life. And that's not acceptable.
00:24:05
Speaker
Yeah. You said the term self-effacing there. I would go further. I would say self-flagellating. There is obviously this sort of historic guilt that comes into this.
00:24:18
Speaker
There's also the economic argument, which I think has been pretty much debunked, but there is the argument to say that for some period of time, low-skilled mass migration is a way to plump up an economy that has low productivity.
00:24:33
Speaker
Well, that's how it started. in terms of In terms of the migration rates say today, a lot of people came firstly here as guest workers, right? What we have today is It's not just unsustainable, it's reckless.
00:24:48
Speaker
It's reckless because it, and indeed it also is a testament, I think, to one of the unmentioned prejudices of our time, which is classism. the The way in which locals have been decimated and treated as as as as as just spots for people who talk about all the benefits of migration, but never themselves live in these communities, but put them in communities where Local people have suffered and indeed local people have given not a scintilla of democratic consent to any of this and yet are expected to bear the brunt.
00:25:22
Speaker
It isn't right. And, you know, and so it's it's what began as a kind of economically, perhaps even laudable project has ended up harming the very people it sought to protect.
Classism and Political Dynamics
00:25:35
Speaker
Well, this is where the Rob Hedonson luxury beliefs thing comes in. For people who haven't heard that Rob Hedonson American thinker, the term luxury beliefs refers to those sorts of high status beliefs like multiculturalism, like ah net zero, like all the things which cost us either money or cultural capital, which if you are living in the West Village of Manhattan or you're living in Notting Hill or Rislington,
00:26:02
Speaker
They don't directly affect you, but if you're living in the north of England or you're living in Boise, Idaho, they very much do affect you. So I think you're right. And equally, everyone who is British listening to this will understand the class element in the rape gang scandal, where there is absolutely no way that people would have turned a blind eye in the way that they did if that the girls who were being raped by predominantly Muslim Pakistani men were girls who were growing up in Chelsea and London as opposed to growing up in Rotherham or Rochdale. So I think you're right. I think the class issue is incredibly significant.
00:26:43
Speaker
in this. What's the answer there? Because I actually think in some respects, Britain is becoming a less class-based society in some respects, at least compared to the aristocracy of the 1800s. But that's undoubtedly true. I mean, Britain has made enormous progress and that's to be commended.
00:27:00
Speaker
I still think Britain very much is a classist society. I still think that the way working class people are treated, particularly if if they're white, is horrendous.
00:27:11
Speaker
and and And, you know, it's not that the left today just don't care about the Labour Party, right? They don't just care about the working classes. they're fundamentally contemptuous towards the working. Exactly right. Right. It's a sense that the working, ah because what do the working class people of this country represent?
00:27:34
Speaker
They represent everything the Labour Party and the political left despise. Family, community, a sense of patriotism, responsibility to one another.
00:27:47
Speaker
These are values which, To those on the left, because of this universalism, which has become so mainstream in their way of thinking, these are values which are so divorced from their reality.
00:28:01
Speaker
and it's and it And it's why the Labour Party and other parties on the left will never, at least for the foreseeable future, get these people back.
00:28:12
Speaker
Well, the word couldn't close. Go on. Sorry. No, no, go on. The working class patriotic movement of the last three months has been the raise the flag movement.
00:28:24
Speaker
Totally. Totally. and And anyone, look, if you are on the left, what is patriotism? Patriotism is the celebration of the collective working together.
00:28:35
Speaker
What could be more left wing than that? What could be more left-wing than patriotism? i i this is This is partly what's so absurd about the left is that it's become just hyper-capitalist.
00:28:49
Speaker
It's become so obsessed with the individual and particularly the that the culture from which the individual merges. That is only if he doesn't come from the native background, right?
Patriotism and Political Identity
00:29:01
Speaker
Well, you know, an English background in our case here.
00:29:04
Speaker
Patriotism is about people of different backgrounds coming together, raising a flag. Now, the Labour Party today may well try to pretend that they're patriotic. You know, we saw at their conference various flags hoisted above so, you know, proudly. And, you know, that was nice to see. it's And it's certainly and nice shift away from the the Palestinian flags that are way some years ago.
00:29:30
Speaker
But it's so palpably insincere. I mean, really, they they if you know when um the Labour Party are in these areas and and they think that their kind of Islingtonian words are going to have any kind of effect on working class towns, particularly up north, they're gravely mistaken because people can see The contempt with which Labour politicians, and particularly in their government, treat subjects like borders, treat the grievances held by many.
00:30:07
Speaker
And, you know, it's all well and good for people on the political left to lambast people like Tommy Robinson and their many, many, many issues. in that particular sphere.
00:30:18
Speaker
But by insulting the people that went on that march a few weeks ago, right, by brandishing them falsely and cheaply as being, ah that's as partaking in actions of the far right, a term which those people never define because it really has no meaning anyway, and they'll brandish anyone, you know, extreme racism and so on.
00:30:40
Speaker
they actually have insulted the very people on whose votes they depend. the Like, they not seem to understand that that the Labour Party was once a very patriotic party.
00:30:52
Speaker
yeah It was patriotic to its core. And what's happened to it now is that it's just, it it in in in everything it does, be that its policies vis-a-vis migration or its ineptitude in terms of deporting illegal immigrants, right,
00:31:09
Speaker
which is certainly not a racist proposition and which itself should be a left-wing proposition because it's about protecting working-class people. Its ineptitude in so many different spheres conveys...
00:31:22
Speaker
it its sense of contempt for the very people who once voted for its party. and and and And frankly, reform then are not just a kind of ah not and not just the consequence. They are a spectacular inevitability of the establishment abandonment of people who actually care about some of the basic basic facets of nationhood.
00:31:49
Speaker
some of the basic facets of tradition. And I thought it was very clever of Reform UK to have, I wouldn't say plagiarized, but in some way borrowed from the SDP who have as their motto, community ah family, community, nation.
00:32:04
Speaker
Because ultimately, people want an economic structure which is about local community, which then promotes growth nationally, right? That's what how people view the world around them. And I'm afraid to say,
00:32:17
Speaker
That so long as Labour fail to deal with issues around family, fail to have any kind of meaningful, and and indeed the crucial word here is thoughtful, thoughtful engagement with social and cultural issues, then reform are the inevitable government in waiting.
00:32:38
Speaker
Yeah, a few thoughts. Number one, I'd never thought about that insight of patriotism being potentially framed as a left-wing concept because of it being collectivist. I think that's a very interesting idea.
00:32:52
Speaker
The second question, this now will lead on to your earlier point that we are at a point where there needs to be a fundamental paradigm shift in this society. At the moment, the political disruptor on the right is reform.
00:33:06
Speaker
We are still a long way out from an election, three and a half years. A huge amount can happen. think people who are saying it's a shoo-in that they will get in are wrong. you put your life on it at the moment, you'd probably say they will, but this is a long time away.
00:33:22
Speaker
Equally, you are also seeing populist movements pick up some momentum on the left with that kind of you know, nutty Corbyn-Zara Sultana party and with the Greens who are doing very well in that sort of taking away far left vote from Labour.
00:33:37
Speaker
You mentioned a paradigm shift. What does that paradigm shift look like? it's a Well, firstly, on the issue of of reform, people view them as a kind of as a as a party on the right. I'm not entirely convinced by that. I agree.
00:33:56
Speaker
I think they're actually more a workers' party. i I see what they're doing, and they represent... no not not Not an affirmation of the establishment, but fundamentally a revolt against it.
Cultural Reassertion and Immigration Control
00:34:09
Speaker
And in that sense, then, we can't I think that the the the framework by which we understand political dynamics, that is left or right, I think reform break the binary.
00:34:20
Speaker
Well, I think the binary has been broken for some time now. right there I I think, is kind of dumb. Yeah, I agree. But I think reform are a lot more fundamental than people actually think. And and and they are not just a political party.
00:34:35
Speaker
they are they they they They represent a deep movement in the way Britons think about the world around them. Now, the paradigm shift has to be seismic and it has to involve the ability of liberals to get back to what are basic liberal principles, right?
00:34:56
Speaker
In other words, who and what we are as Britain. Right? Now, it means then we have to be willing to say things which might make some liberals at present uncomfortable.
00:35:10
Speaker
It might mean that we have to say that we are not going to tolerate things. Like, well, for example, what's happened with this park run... ah I'm not sure you've seen him in Tower Hamlets, where young women, 12-year-old girls, I believe, were not are not permitted to run as a result of ah of a decision made by men in a mosque.
00:35:31
Speaker
Well, that's not right. Now, let's call it it what is it is. It is disgusting in a Western liberal democracy. It is disgusting. And, you know, in a sense, these issues are not new. So Suzanne Oken, who was and very formidable liberal philosopher some years ago, has now passed away.
00:35:48
Speaker
But she wrote, does multiculturalism protect women? And her answer in short was that, well, it can do so long as liberals have a bit of spunk, have a bit of courage.
00:35:58
Speaker
And unfortunately, liberals don't have that courage. And, you know, what I want to see is the paradigm shift, just in kind of practical terms, would be basically the kind of points Rupert Lowe makes, right?
00:36:12
Speaker
But again, affirming the sanctity, indeed the virtue of having a diverse society. My opposition in no way to diversity. I mean, goodness me, I'm a product of it, right?
00:36:24
Speaker
i and Jewish coming from Eastern Europe, family-made Britain their home. That's great. you I mean, you too, you're you're you're from Australia, right? yeah But I suppose I'll put it you like this.
00:36:38
Speaker
In 2015, there was a call between Angela Merkel and Benjamin Netanyahu because Angela Merkel declared in her infinite wisdom, this shuff and dust, we can do this. And she allowed a million people into her country as a result of her own lovely kindness.
00:36:54
Speaker
Well, there's that. I think in that example, there's a bucket load of historic guilt that went into that as well. I completely agree. But she asked Netanyahu, the Jewish prime minister, funny enough, talking about guilt, she asked him,
00:37:11
Speaker
how has your country been so successful in terms of admitting high rates of people into your country? Because Israel has had several periods of intense waves of migration.
00:37:23
Speaker
How is it in Israeli society, Jews from Ethiopia can dwell with Jews from Russia? And he basically said, well, yes, we have these integration programs.
00:37:34
Speaker
Very, very good. But what's the real point here? Ah, Because the people coming from Ethiopia, the people coming from Russia, the people coming from Argentina all share basic cultural framework.
00:37:49
Speaker
That is the point, right? And what we have done, and this owes itself again to the kind of economic view of of of of those who dominate so-called liberal elites, is we privilege economic considerations over cultural considerations.
00:38:06
Speaker
But even that economic argument is now breaking down as well. Well, even that now is non-tentical, but initially that's how it started out. and and And so to me, part of that shift then is for us to be able to think about questions like, who are we?
00:38:22
Speaker
What do we stand for? Also, what do we stand against? Because that's a really important question to ask, right? Because you have to say things that you're not going to tolerate. And how on earth are we prepared to enforce it? Now, it could be, you know, and this is partly my sort of reluctance to The small boats issue, for example, I mean, i i'm I'm reluctant somewhat to say that, you know, if stopping the small boats is is is the most burning crisis on the political agenda.
00:38:50
Speaker
Small boats ultimately are a symbol. They're a symbol of a country without borders, right? Which, in effect, we are. We don't have borders, at least borders which are meaningful, right?
00:39:02
Speaker
But even if you were to deal with small boats, even if you were to deal with illegal and legal migration, right, we've still got huge problems which exist within communities with people who've been living here now for several generations.
00:39:18
Speaker
And that to and that to me is the urgent question. Why is it that the people who, many people who've been living here for many years now exhibit a certain sense of estrangement from the prevailing British culture and identity? Okay.
00:39:33
Speaker
So this can get a bit abstract. I agree with everything you've said on principle, but it can get abstract. So let's look at a few specific policy areas and say, right, from the arguments you put forward, what does that mean for how the UK should think about these areas?
00:39:47
Speaker
Number one, immigration. What would you recommend? And let's let's say let's let's say assume that illegal immigration, protect your borders, that That's, I think, ah now a mainstream view.
00:40:01
Speaker
Let's say legal migration. from On principle now, how would you adjust policy settings when it comes to immigration in this country? you must get control of numbers and you must control the people who come in depending on the values they share.
00:40:15
Speaker
Numbers meaning that the current rates are just wildly unsustainable. The culture from which many of these people coming is is is just and on many occasions incompatible with our own.
00:40:29
Speaker
And ah thirdly, when people do arrive here, there is no system by which to integrate them. There are no initiatives in place. So on three counts,
00:40:41
Speaker
The current immigration policy, if you will, is just not fit for purpose. You've mentioned Rupert Lowe a couple of times. Restore put out in a tweet the other day that I saw that they believe that there should be a red list of countries, which they would define as not being culturally compatible with Britain, where we should not allow immigrants to come into the UK.
00:41:01
Speaker
Do you agree or disagree with that? i I agree with the principle. My worry is, and this is partly an objection I have, I think, I'm not sure if this is official reform policy, but I've heard it articulated from some reform people.
00:41:12
Speaker
If you're a woman fleeing Afghanistan, I believe we have a moral duty to protect you from the evils of the Taliban, right? I think men is a different story, but I think women and children, there is a moral responsibility.
00:41:26
Speaker
But in principle, the idea that we should be taking people in from countries where the values are not just unlike, but fundamentally opposed to our own, i don't see any benefit to this country and taking in people from those lands.
00:41:42
Speaker
That's not to say everyone in those countries subscribe to those views. But if you actually look at the kind of data, and I look at the data, for example, on anti-Semitism, right? If you look at the and anti-Semitism rates in the Middle East and North Africa, well, liking Jews is not the rule, it's the exception.
00:41:59
Speaker
And, and maybe you know, forgive me for being crude, but yeah, no shit. Israel is in the middle of a bunch of countries that want to wipe them off the map.
00:42:10
Speaker
And this is why it kind of annoys me when people assume that just because they will then someday hit the beaches of Dover, those views will magically change. And it just doesn't work that way.
00:42:22
Speaker
When it's a racist view, of course Of course it is. Number two, only we have ownership of values and culture. Only white Brits have ownership. I mean, this this is again, one of the the great,
00:42:36
Speaker
puzzling facets of the anti-racist movement today is that they'll claim that, well, when people come here, you know, they'll embrace our culture and stuff. In many cases, that is true.
00:42:46
Speaker
But it assumes that actually they don't have any cultural baggage of their own. Number two, a policy around, I guess, social cohesion, for want of a ah better term.
00:42:58
Speaker
yeah We now, for better or worse, sorry, not for better or worse, for worse, as a result of the poll of the worldview that you have articulated across this country now have a series of ethnic and cultural ghettos that are not integrated and most of the time are dictated by the norms of the countries from which the majority of those people have come from.
00:43:19
Speaker
Now, again, if most of those people have come from China and it's Chinatown, ah it's it's it's less of a problem. If they've come from Pakistan, this is when you get Krimi Gang problems.
00:43:33
Speaker
How do you deal with the reality now that we are a fractured society, that we are not integrated, and that there is a lack of social cohesion. And I will say one more thing, and that is, this is an incredibly difficult problem to solve.
00:43:49
Speaker
And so i'm not necessarily suggesting for you to solve it in the next two minutes. Well, you you can't for that reason. It is Look, social engineering is out of the question in the sense that, for example, I believe it's, it's, it's, uh, which country?
00:44:07
Speaker
Singapore. Singapore has, as a matter of its policy, they do not allow ghettoization. In fact, they have a policy in which they basically forbid it. They say that, look, we are, our, the way we arrange our neighborhoods is done according to preventing ghettoization. So we have a balance in our country. So communities reflect the country itself. So it prevents this ghettoization.
00:44:30
Speaker
We can't do that now. And also many of the problems we see are coming from people of British citizens. We can't in any way deport people who are here with a British passport. That's not what we do in it. it's ah That would be a fundamental assault on civil liberty.
00:44:43
Speaker
so ah But I do think I do think, though, there are some things the liberal state can still meaningfully do, which is to say that, look, if you are in a community and um um we know you're basically promoting or allowing for a dehumanization of women or Jews or gay people or anyone for that matter, then and and and and certain ideas are taken ah ah ah becoming visible in public spaces,
00:45:16
Speaker
We will intervene. But you can't go into people's homes and change views. You can't start messing up local communities and start saying, well, we're going to take you and move you to different places.
00:45:28
Speaker
Because that's, it's just, it's not what we do. It would be wrong. But there are things where we can, we should act. But because it's happened now for so many years, it's not like the liberal state can actually do much.
Balancing Diversity and Unity
00:45:43
Speaker
pot has melted. Final question, Harry. There are several, i know for fact there are several British politicians as well as Australian politicians that listen to this podcast. I can count at least one former prime minister that listens to this podcast regularly.
00:45:58
Speaker
What would your advice be to the politicians or the leaders of both Australia and the UK? And I bucket them together because the problems are comparable. What would your advice be to them?
00:46:10
Speaker
It would be to think about the virtue in having a country in which we have diversity, in which we allow people to embrace their own cultures and backgrounds.
00:46:26
Speaker
But fundamentally, we are willing to assert that which brings people of those different communities together. We are willing the virtue in having teeth in eradicating ideas and cultures which are fundamentally opposed to our own.
00:46:44
Speaker
The virtue in being able to say there are some things we are not going to tolerate. And the virtue, of course, of reminding fellow liberals,
00:46:55
Speaker
that Britain is a country that, and Western Europe is a place, that actually has a proud history of being tolerant. But tolerance, openness, magnanimity, and kindness, they all have their limits, and they all have their boundaries.
00:47:12
Speaker
And before it's too late, you need to define what those boundaries are.
Conclusion and Call to Action
00:47:18
Speaker
Melted Pod, Harry, is a wonderful book. a link to buy it is in the show notes. I could recommend it more highly.
00:47:24
Speaker
where apart from reading that book, can people hear more of your thoughts and read more of your stuff? Well, Twitter sometimes. Yeah.
00:47:34
Speaker
Follow me on Twitter or but you'll put my name out or whatever. And and yeah. father them but but Buy the book, basically. Just buy the book. That's it. Buy the book. That's it. I didn't want to say it.
00:47:45
Speaker
Harry, mate, well done. Lovely conversation. and A very thought-provoking one. Thank you for coming on the show. Thank you. Thank you.