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What Americans really think of Britain, with Ben Leo
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The UK and US have long cherished a ‘special relationship’. However, the countries appear to be diverging down different paths; economically, culturally, and spiritually. There are more than a few Brits who look across the pond with envy as the US ascends, and the UK continues to be stuck in a deep malaise.
How do the countries compare today, and what does the American political establishment really think about the United Kingdom in 2025? Will is joined by the host of the The Late Show Live on GB News, broadcast from Washington DC, Ben Leo.
Follow Will Kingston and Fire at Will on social media here.
Read The Spectator Australia here.
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Transcript
Envy of the US: Economy, Freedom, Leadership
00:00:19
Speaker
G'day and welcome to Fire at Will. I'm Will Kingston. Like every country, the US has its fair share of problems, but I can't help but get the sense that a lot of Brits looking across the pond do so with a sense of envy.
00:00:35
Speaker
They see a country with a growing economy, ah booming stock market, a First Amendment that protects the type of speech that is currently getting British people jailed, and a leader who, for all his faults, unashamedly puts his country first in a way that the British Prime Minister sadly does not.
Introducing Ben Leo: Insights on the US and UK
00:00:58
Speaker
To discuss the state of the UK from someone who has recently made that trip across the pond, it is News presenter and a pioneer for GB News' new US Bureau in Washington, DC, Ben Leo. Ben, welcome Fire at Will.
00:01:14
Speaker
Thank you, mate. How are I'm good, mate. I'm used to being on your panel on JV News, so it's nice to have the chew on the other foot for a change. I know, we've switched it up, switched it up. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Actually, yeah um i miss I miss you panelists. I miss my show and miss being in London. But yeah, it's very cool being here. So at least we can still connect like this.
00:01:33
Speaker
Well, that's a good place to start. You've been in the US only for a short period of time, but what are your early reflections on the state of the nation in 2025?
US Energy vs UK Stagnation
00:01:46
Speaker
The state of the US. I mean, first of all, we knew it anyway, but America is a success a crazy country. They are like, you know, everything's bigger, bolder, brusher, little bit more insane. The energy levels are just a couple of gears up.
00:02:00
Speaker
But it's amazing being here, seeing what Trump is doing politically in the administration and comparing it back home to the UK because it just, I mean, it's a start of contrast, first of all, but it just goes to show it's not about policy or international law or what this focus focus group says or what your buddies in the North London dinner set say, if you want to get something done,
00:02:23
Speaker
They'll get it done. You know, it's very, very simple. It's all about, and um' I get mocked by my friends for using this term, and it is a cliche, but it's political will. All that matters is the intent and the authenticity of the person sitting in the hot seat in that White House.
00:02:40
Speaker
Likewise in Downing Street, if you want to stop the boats, for example, you can stop the boats. Of course you can. Just like Trump has stopped illegal migration here, has gone to zero. So the energy of that administration, of the government is...
00:02:53
Speaker
refreshing it's great to see but you also see it on the streets as well with people there's you know so many people have got a spring in their step you mentioned that the stock market's booming GDP is on the up cost of living still pretty high but he's trying to he's trying to tackle that and I think just generally DC is expensive anyway but there is a newfound energy and buoyance about the country they've got their mojo back basically after the four years of Biden and hopefully we'll be on their coattails ah Yeah, the the takeaway from that is the sense of energy and the sense that things are actually moving forward. Things are happening.
Governance Simplicity: El Salvador's Crime Reduction
00:03:27
Speaker
Now, look, you can argue as to whether or not particular policies are good or bad, but at least there is deliberate efforts to actually do things. It reminds me of a tweet I saw this morning from the El Salvador president, and his caption was, you can just do things in response to the crime.
00:03:45
Speaker
And I think it was it was it ah was quoting a tweet which said that the El Salvadorian crime rate has gone down from 100 murders for every 1,000 people to, I think, one murder.
00:03:57
Speaker
You just bang them all up, as they should be. All the gangbangers, all the the murderers and the rapists and the pedos and the noncers, you just bang them up. Just build a massive supermarket. It's not hard.
00:04:07
Speaker
anyone with comment You don't need to have degrees or be an academic to realize, you know if you've got a problem sorting, what's the obvious solution? Don't overthink it, as Keir Starmer does.
00:04:17
Speaker
Just build a new prison and just put all the wrong ones in there. It's very simple.
Critique of UK Political Class
00:04:21
Speaker
what What do you put that, like and again, look the UK has been in stasis for 20 years, economically, culturally, in fact, possibly the only place it hasn't been in stasis is is population growth through ah very, very damaging mass migration policy. But otherwise, it's a country that feels like it is is stuck in the mud.
00:04:43
Speaker
What do you put that stasis down to? but of a can of worms. There's probably a myriad of things. I mean, i think uncontrolled mass migration is a big part of it because you have, when you have a situation where where native Brits start, they don't begin to, recognize they don't recognize their country anymore. I think that and sort of introduces a certain malaise where People feel hard done by. There's a lack of drive and inspiration and they kind of feel ignored.
00:05:12
Speaker
And then that's why you see things like the welfare bill shooting up, for example. So it's a lack of drive and energy. But then also, i think we have a real problem with our political class as well. I mean, the types look in look in Parliament now, look in the House of Commons and all the MPs.
00:05:28
Speaker
By any standard, by any decent standard, they are very low-grade people on the whole. Maybe there's one or two decent people, but they are of not the kind of people you'd want to out in the pub and have a beer with, not the kind of people you'd want to go into business with, not the kind of people you'd want to really hang out with any day of the week, socially or through work. They're low-grade people who, for the majority, have gone to Oxford or PPE,
00:05:51
Speaker
sorry, Oxford or Cambridge and study PPE, then maybe gone to work for an NGO or think tank, then perhaps gone to work in the constituency office of another low-grade MP, and then they're parachuted into some job in Parliament. And these are the people making our laws. They're driving the country forward. And I think we've just come to accept a situation where they are so incompetent, so low-grade, know nothing about real life, probably had and ah never had a night out in their life, which might sound trivial, but for me it means that...
00:06:20
Speaker
They don't understand how people work or how people think, and they're not in touch with with the people of Great Britain. So I think we've been down a slippery slope with the quality of our politicians for sure.
00:06:31
Speaker
I mean, another conversation maybe for another day is the fact that Generally, if you're looking for top, top people, I don't think MPs, controversially, get paid enough. If you want to attract the brightest and the best people, you need to be offering the kind of salaries that CEOs or top execs are on at 5,100 companies.
00:06:49
Speaker
So, yeah, I mean, it's a myriad of things. and what what's What's your take? Yeah, well, I've said that on GBNU several times that I would be more than happy to pay them a million quid a year if it meant that we got top-level talent. In terms of the economy, that's a drop in the ocean, and yet you would actually, i think, and encourage...
00:07:09
Speaker
people who would otherwise be CEOs or or you know serious thinkers into politics. So I think that's i think that's a great start. But the other interesting thing about this conversation around political talent is it's not just limited to the UK.
00:07:22
Speaker
Like if I look at Australia, for example, you've seen the same thing happen where You look at the leaders of the 80s and the 90s, and in that instance, you'd look at people like Bob Hawke and Paul Keating and John Howard, and you look at the talent that is there now, and it is obvious to anyone, absolutely anyone, that the intellect and the political skills are a world apart.
00:07:44
Speaker
And similarly, if you look at someone like Keir Starmer and you compared him to someone like Tony Blair, and look, I'm not so necessarily suggesting that I liked Blair as a prime minister, but there's no doubt that he was an... At least he was an operator.
00:08:00
Speaker
He was an operator and he was a generational political talent, whatever you may think of him. yeah So this this is this is a Western problem, not just UK problem. I noticed you got your press badge from the White House the other day.
00:08:12
Speaker
Maybe a bit easy early to make a complete assessment, but what's your early take on the political class in the US s and do you notice any differences with the UK? Do I notice any differences? I mean...
Comparing Political Articulation: US vs UK
00:08:25
Speaker
Yeah, even and it goes back to my first point about everything just being a little a grade or two above the rest. Even the Democrats on the far left over here have much more vigor in their argument.
00:08:36
Speaker
I mean, i think they're insane a lot of the time. I i mean, liberalism is a mental illness, but they are they can articulate arguments better. They have more energy and more drive. And a lot of the time, a lot of disagree with them. they make They make good points and they can debate properly and and put forward good arguments against the the Republicans.
00:08:54
Speaker
You put look at people like Jamie Raskin, who's a massive Democrat. He's got Trump derangement syndrome, complete rabid lefty. But he, i mean, he was the guy, by the way, who grilled Nigel Farage in Congress a few weeks ago. Him and Farage had a bit of a back and forth.
00:09:08
Speaker
But I look at, say, I mean, let's look at the Labour government. I can't see anybody really with that kind of character or intent. mean, you look at David Lammy, I mean, it's just, they're just wet. They're completely wet. I mean, Bridget Phillipson, Yvette Cooper. i mean, the Chancellor, Rachel Reeves, who is...
00:09:26
Speaker
meant to be lifting us up by the bootstraps and instilling some momentum into the economy with respect to her and i you know i respect these people as human beings of course but she she talks like a robot she hasn't got a bloody clue what she's doing and so you want you want someone to kind of give some inspiration to the the people of britain to look up to and who can say oh yeah i mean but Boris Johnson arguably did it, although he's completely incompetent on policy. But someone you can allure to and think, oh, yeah, we're we're in we're in good hands here. I trust what you're doing. But you look at Rachel Reeves. I'll cite her again because she's so inane.
00:10:05
Speaker
There's just no confidence there. She hasn't got confidence in herself. The electorate haven't got confidence in her. don't think Keir Starmer's got confidence in her either. She can't even talk. She can't even deliver a speech. Likewise, Keir Starmer, he can't deliver a speech without looking at notes or an autocue.
00:10:19
Speaker
It's pathetic. Yeah, I found that absolutely extraordinary. And and to be fair, Kemi Badenock in Question Time, PMQs is much the same as well. How you can get to the senior roles in politics when politics is meant to be about persuasion and not be a off the job good public speaker is extraordinary.
00:10:40
Speaker
Yeah, is that's half the job. but That's why Boris Johnson was so successful. Again, I say he he got undone for whatever reason. He went down this deranged road of net zero and an obsession with importing loads of Indians over to Britain. But he won that election after election because he did half the job as a politician, which is having some character, winning the people over, being able to talk properly. Yes, he was bumbling, but he still had some substance behind what he was saying.
00:11:05
Speaker
And again, that's why Nigel Farage is so good. That's 70% of Nigel Farage's allure and popularity because he can talk to people. He's a you know, he may have gone to Dulwich College. He may be circling in sort of upper class circles, but he can still get down to the level of of the the working class and speak to them because he's not an idiot.
00:11:26
Speaker
nine Well, it's an interesting parallel, isn't it, with Trump, who also, you know, is a billionaire, right? literally covers everything you can possibly find in gold who has a private jet.
00:11:39
Speaker
This is not a man who, you know, is slumming it. And just like Farage, Farage is a very wealthy man, but both of these people can connect with the man on the street better than the traditional working class parties, the Democrats and the Labor Party.
00:11:55
Speaker
it, it, it, on the on this on a very so On the very surface, it would appear to be a contradiction. How is it that these incredibly wealthy, incredibly ah fortunate people seem to be able to connect with average dough blogs in the north of England or in Ohio better than the Labor Party or the Democrats?
Connecting with the Common Man: Trump and Farage
00:12:19
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:19
Speaker
Yeah, I'll tell you why. Because they've built businesses, they've run operations, they' they've hired people, and they've engaged with people. i was watching a ah clip that was doing the rounds on on X the other day, or after 9-11, maybe a day or two after 9-11.
00:12:33
Speaker
Donald Trump strolling down into Manhattan, reporters all around him, and they were saying, why are you here, Mr. Trump? Why are you here? and he said, my men are working down here. They're building a skyscraper for me. I've got 200 men down here. i want to come down and make sure they're okay. i want to make sure their family's okay. i want to do what I can to help them.
00:12:49
Speaker
Nobody in government has built anything. And it goes back to my other point. They've come straight from university. They've been sheltered in an elite education system and gone to work for some low-grade think tank where they're living in an echo chamber and they go straight into parliament. They haven't got a bloody clue about the real world.
00:13:04
Speaker
They don't know normal people. They don't know how the working class works. They don't know how the middle class works. They don't know how to build anything. They how to create wealth. They don't know how to create opportunity. they don't know speak to people. So even though Trump, yes, he's a billionaire.
00:13:16
Speaker
Nigel Farage has done well for himself. He used to be a top commodities trader in Wall Street and in the city. But he's worked with people and he's built businesses and he's he's manifested and created and and and matured opportunity, not just for himself, but for other people.
00:13:35
Speaker
Yeah. And I hold out, it's not just that they don't know those types of people, but they don't want to know them. there is And I think this is a ah um parallel across the UK and the US, this sneering contempt from the left that has seeped into leftist ideology in the last 20, 30, 40 years.
00:13:58
Speaker
that looks at the tradie or looks at the cleaner and says, you are beneath me. And I think so much of that class-based outlook plays into the whole raise the flags do ah phenomena that we're seeing in yeah in the UK at the moment.
00:14:16
Speaker
And obviously, with that sort of sneering and attempt in the US, that you know the deplorables thing from Hillary Clinton, which summed that up, you know it it it is It is a contempt which people can feel. They can feel when they're being looked down upon.
00:14:29
Speaker
You made such a good point there, which reminds me of, it I was guilty of that sneering down on tradies, for example, at school when I was in high school, 14, 15, just about to leave high school and go into further education.
00:14:43
Speaker
And it came from the teachers. It came from the institution. I knew no better at the time. But if you were going on to do an apprenticeship or if I had a mate who was going on to train to be a sparky or a carpenter, you look down on them because you're like, oh, well, you're not going on to study something else. You know, you must be a bit stupid. You must be a bit sick.
00:14:59
Speaker
And the reality now, as you know, the most wealthy, successful, happy people I know back in my hometown in Sussex in England are all the sparkies, tradies, electricians, builders,
00:15:11
Speaker
who started their own businesses um and they're now living the life of Riley. They've got great homes, great families, loads of money. You know, they they know skills. And it's, ah as I said, I was guilty. i was guilty of it at school. I know now I've realized the um and reality of things.
00:15:25
Speaker
But there was that perception at school where if you didn't go on to college, get some A-levels or the equivalent, I got some B-techs because probably wasn't that bright academically. And all going to get a degree a university,
00:15:37
Speaker
then somehow that you know you weren't as as good as as those people who chose to do that. But, yeah, i mean, that's such a great point. It's classism. And that came from the school and the teachers. Yeah.
00:15:47
Speaker
Well, they're making more than journalists. That's for damn sure. This goes to, and people in the U.S., s like Bhardia Unger-Sargon, who's been on the show, has talked about this sort of this sort of divide in the U.S., the class divide.
00:16:01
Speaker
And, again, I'm conscious that you are still... dipping your toes into the waters of the United States. But I know when I lived in the US, for example, and had to travel across the country, i was always stunned at the cultural differences between the coastal areas of California and New York.
00:16:20
Speaker
And then you go inland and it is a different world. I guess the question would be, are we is there ever a future in which there can be greater unity in the US?
00:16:36
Speaker
And would potentially add in the UK as well, if you look at the North-South divide, or are we past that? Are we now just into a future of intense polarisation that will just continue to potentially devolve?
00:16:52
Speaker
Oh, man.
Cultural and Political Polarization
00:16:53
Speaker
Such a good question. need get another coffee before I that. since things are things are Things are pretty... In terms of divisiveness, man, things are pretty bad. I was at that Palestine protest in New York City yesterday. I got back to you this morning.
00:17:09
Speaker
Yeah, tell me about that because you are you mentioned to me that is the ah the the most extraordinary TV segment that you've you've been a part of. Talk me through it.
00:17:20
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it just... So, first of all, the I think the divisiveness... I don't want to just scapegoat the immigration problem, but i think that divisiveness, that sectarian society comes from mass migration because you look at the big cities, the big states, New York, California, they're full of immigrants, okay?
00:17:41
Speaker
Same as the UK. London isn't the same as, say, don't know, the Cotswolds or Burnley. Maybe Burnley is, but somewhere up north, which is untouched by migration because they've not been affected by that.
00:17:55
Speaker
that that change in demographic. But the division comes because you're importing people from different cultures, And then they're having children from, you know, first, second generation immigrants, but they've still got an attachment to their roots, to wherever they came from, and which clashes with the identity of the country they're now in.
00:18:17
Speaker
I think that's why that there is no, that that to me restricts the opportunity for unity, for common common relationships. I mean, you look at let's look at the UK, for example.
00:18:28
Speaker
um and i'll um and I'll talk about New York last night, but Can you imagine now how many people in the UK living in London, first, second generation immigrants, on Remembrance Sunday, on Remembrance Weekend, how many of those people would have any source of affiliation with the Second World War, with Dunkirk, with the Battle of Britain?
00:18:49
Speaker
hardly any of them. They have no ancestral link to that. that They have no, they have no, and for me, it's a spiritual thing as well. It's yeah it's about DNA and where you're from and you're and where you're going. And if you don't have that that link to your country's history, how can you possibly, and i don't blame them, how can you possibly have any sort of empathy or sympathy when it comes to protecting and and conserving the identity of your nation? And that divides a split.
00:19:14
Speaker
That's why you see with the raise the flags thing, people are raising the flags because they're proud of Britain. And yet you get other people who are like, well, I don't really feel part of that. I feel no historic or emotional or spiritual connection to that.
00:19:25
Speaker
And that's where you get that clash. And that was that manifested in New York City yesterday. ah We drove four hours down there, left DC in the morning, drove four hours. And then you had, similar to London, you had two sides. You had a bunch of jihadi supporters, there was people waving Hamas flags and calling for the destruction of Israel and the extinction of Jews.
00:19:49
Speaker
Many of them were migrants, many of them weren't, you know, sort people who were born here, who have family here and ancestry here, or even in the West. And there is just a complete clash of ideas and your country is being divided and torn at the seams.
00:20:06
Speaker
And there's a massive battle. It's a spiritual battle where one side doesn't get it. The other side does get it. And it creates this massive toxic atmosphere. And I don't think, I think the horse has bolted actually. Well, I don't think,
00:20:19
Speaker
It's salvageable, really, in in the UK and the US. I think the horse has bolstered. That divide is there already. I think we can do some work, try and bridge the gap and get our mojo back. But I really think uncontrolled mass migration over the generations has caused some permanent damage.
00:20:36
Speaker
Yeah, sadly, I tend to agree. It does feel, though, that the US has been able to manage migration better than the UK has.
00:20:47
Speaker
It doesn't feel like the same levels of sectarian violence. Obviously, there's huge amounts of of of violence in terms of school shootings. Yeah, there's domestic violence, yeah.
00:21:00
Speaker
Domestic violence is the way the way the way to put it. But the type of sectarian violence which was characterized by the recent attack in Manchester, which has been characterized by Islamic extremist attacks, which are getting more and more common in the UK, it feels like the US hasn't had quite the same problems with integration that the US, the UK has.
00:21:25
Speaker
Do you think that's a fair assessment? And if so, why? i think so. i haven't got the stats or the data to back up my my assumption, but I'd probably say it because America is bigger and you can disperse, immigrants can disperse across the country. So I think there's one or two cities, I can't remember the names, I think there's one or two cities maybe in like Illinois where you get entire communities or towns of say Muslims.
00:21:49
Speaker
Whereas in the UK, you go to Leicester, you go to Birmingham, they are they are Muslim cities. Yeah. Minnesota is the one where there's been this huge Somali population that's entered into it and Now it looks like it's odds on to have a Somali mayor just through its re virtue of that voting. In the UK, we're a much smaller country. We are tiny.
00:22:12
Speaker
We are so small. We're a tiny island with loads of people packed in together in in ah in a... i mean People call it a melting pot. I mean, it's boiling and frothing and you know to the cusp.
00:22:25
Speaker
Whereas the US, I mean, I flew from when I went to Charlie Kirk's Memorial the other day. I didn't realize it took five and a half hours to fly from DC to Arizona. And it just proved how big and vast the country is.
00:22:37
Speaker
So I think when just comes to pure sort of mathematics and geographics, I think we have a disadvantage when it comes to tackling the sort of cultural divide. That's good segue to Charlie Kirk, but just before we get onto that, I agree with that.
00:22:50
Speaker
And it's it's the main reason why I think there isn't quite the same level of anger in Australia as there is in the UK around the consequences of mass migration, even though on a on pure numbers, there's been considerably more migrants that have entered the country in Australia over the last five years than the UK. And when you consider the fact that the Australian population is is it about a third, maybe a bit more than a third the size of the UK, you would think that the the feeling or the on-va would be greater.
00:23:20
Speaker
But I think it's yeah just, it the sprawl means that you don't feel it quite as much. but But I think Australia was certainly getting to that point. But anyway, that's... Just before you move on. That's right.
00:23:33
Speaker
I went to Japan in April, which of course infamously have had pretty much zero migration, no asylum seekers, no legal migration really. for, well, forever. you know, Japan is Japanese, full of Japanese people.
00:23:46
Speaker
And you can see how coherently society works over there. They don't have problems with cultural sectarian segregation. They don't have cities and towns inhabited by, don't know they're Muslims or whoever, or by...
00:23:59
Speaker
like Christians, whatever. like It's a Japanese country for Japanese people. I think, unfortunately, they're making a big mistake now because somebody's got a hold of them and they're opening the floodgates. But that's another conversation. But it just goes to prove my point that it is down to mass migrations.
00:24:14
Speaker
And how interesting is it that no one ever shames the Japanese for a lack of diversity? No one ever shames the Japanese for not having a kind, compassionate, multicultural society?
00:24:25
Speaker
It always seems to be the majority, well, wealth majority for now, white countries that cop the burden of diversity and multiculturalism. There is an odd double standard there.
00:24:37
Speaker
Yeah, and again, that's another big conversation. It's probably something to do with white guilt. I mean, when it comes to Britain, colonial past, which I'm very proud of. I make and i a you know no apologies for the British Empire.
00:24:50
Speaker
yes Yes, there was some raping and pillaging and some bad stuff happening, but ah it happened. ah on the other flip On the flip side, depending on your perspective, you can argue that you know we gave many, many gifts to the world.
00:25:02
Speaker
So it comes down to probably white guilt. um Some of it's probably intentional as well. I don't know why the likes of George Soros would go across the United States funding far-left lunatic district attorneys and congressmen and women and Antifa and Black Lives Matter. I don't know what his intentions are.
00:25:18
Speaker
He obviously hates the way think of it. Yeah. No one ever does the cost-benefit analysis of imperialism and colonialism, do they? They just look at all the bad stuff and they don't say, well, look, we also gave you running water and the rule of law and, you know, women's rights and, you know, all of that sort of good s stuff, of course, as well as ending the slave trade and and losing many lives and a lot of money to do so. it' sos the The other side of the ledger is never really taken into account.
00:25:47
Speaker
No.
Charlie Kirk's Assassination: A Historic Shock
00:25:48
Speaker
You mentioned Charlie Kirk. I ah can't recall. Were you in the US when Charlie Kirk was assassinated or were you yet to move at that stage? I've been here about three days and I was and i was in, I was in a taxi on the way to the studio to prepare for one of, was it the second or third show?
00:26:05
Speaker
And I was scrolling through X as I do mindlessly a lot of the time. And I just saw a tweet saying, Charlie Kirk's been shot. Oh no, sorry. The tweet was, there's guns, a gunshot's been fired at a Charlie Kirk event.
00:26:18
Speaker
And I, I was like, oh, okay, well, maybe just someone's shot ah a bullet in the air or for not for one second that I think Charlie had been shot. And it all happened so quickly. Then about five minutes later, think Candice Owens tweeted something about say prayers for Charlie.
00:26:33
Speaker
um was like, oh, what does that mean? Does she know that he's been shot? And then within the hour, that horrific video ended up in my WhatsApp of him, the bullet entering his neck. And in the straight away, I was like, he's dead.
00:26:48
Speaker
i mean, that was an extraordinary, extraordinary couple of weeks. And later that night, so before it was officially confirmed that he died, I was doing a live hit back to London outside the Capitol building, the US Capitol.
00:27:00
Speaker
I was speaking to Steve Edgington. i was saying that, you know, fingers crossed Charlie survives. tell me about Charlie. You've met him a couple of times, blah, blah, blah. And then in my ear, as I was speaking to Steve, the producers back in London said, Ben, Charlie's dead. Charlie's dead.
00:27:14
Speaker
um let Steve talk for maybe 10, 20 seconds more and said, sorry, Steve, I've got to, I mean, I was stunned. You can see the clip online. It's, I broke the news line on there. I was stunned because God, because I mean, I think it was, I think it, I don't think it's far-fetched to say it was the the equivalent of JFK or Martin Luther King dying. And some people will scoff at me saying that, but that, that guy, Charlie Kirk had such an influence galvanizing the youth vote here in the United States. And even from a religious perspective, really preaching the gospel and what he did for his faith was ah second to none. That's his biggest achievement.
00:27:51
Speaker
But I felt it was a turning point, which is ironic because he found a turning point USA. But I think it was a turning point where a man is murdered, not with a a knife in his hand, not with a gun in his hand. He was murdered with a microphone in in his hand, having open dialogue with people he disagreed with.
00:28:06
Speaker
And such was his influence. It just shocks me to the core. And it still does now. I can't believe he's dead. and ah And of course you had a personal relationship with him. You interviewed him on GAB News and then you went on on his show as well.
00:28:20
Speaker
In your interactions with him, what were your reflections on Charlie Kirk, the man? Yeah, he's, a you know, i didn't I didn't know him. I i wouldn't say I was a massive friend of his, though we spoke a few times. But when he came into Westminster in London, such a nice guy, you know, just very genuine, no alternative agenda. and I posted a clip on X a few weeks ago of me and Charlie chatting before we went live on GB News. So it was like an off-the-camera chat.
00:28:45
Speaker
And he was he was genuinely upset that when he went to Cambridge University, or was it Oxford, on his speaking tour in the UK, that the guys he was debating, although he disagreed with them, you know, completely disagreed where where they were coming from politically, that they weren't kind to him.
00:29:04
Speaker
Charlie was, you know... He was a very kind guy. He just wanted to connect with people on a human level. And he didn't understand why people from the left had to be so personally toxic.
00:29:15
Speaker
And I said the same him. was like, yeah, dude, I go to these Palestine process. I don't agree with them, but I'd probably still be happy to go and have a beer with them and and talk things out. You know, i don't, I don't hate you.
00:29:27
Speaker
I don't think you're evil. I just think maybe you're a do-gooder who wants to do well, but you've got wrong ideas. And I think that was Charlie's perspective as well. He wanted to help people. But that's the problem with the left. The left think the right are inherently evil.
00:29:39
Speaker
And that's why Charlie was murdered because they called him Hitler and the Nazi. and nazi And I think generally the right think the left are just a little bit of stupid. I'm changing my mind a bit on that now. i think there is a bit of a,
00:29:51
Speaker
good versus evil war going on. But yeah, Charlie was ah he was a sensitive guy, although people may not have seen it from his interactions, but he cared about people, whether they agreed with him or not.
00:30:02
Speaker
Well, the thing is, and I've thought about this a lot, the right, historically, although it is changing, I think, in this day and age, have thought about economic issues. It's very hard to think of someone else as being evil just because they believe in higher taxes.
00:30:17
Speaker
But the way that identity politics has now become the guiding philosophy of the left Your identity is core to who you are. And so if someone is saying that a man can't be a woman, that's very different to saying in their eyes, very different to saying that we should deregulate the financial services system.
00:30:39
Speaker
It goes to your very essence. And if something which you see is going to your very essence is challenging you, this is why trans people say they are trying to erase me then of course that creates a permission structure for violence in a way which I don't think right-wing ideology to the same extent does. Which is why I've said several times now that I think this both sides-ism around political violence is wrong.
00:31:04
Speaker
I think that increasingly political violence is becoming inherent to the ideology of the left, whereas on the right, it is the fringe nutters who are acting outside of the bounds of that particular conservative or right-wing framework.
00:31:22
Speaker
I think there is a difference there. Yeah, it's a good point. I think generally, I think people on the right just want, they want to live in ah in a coherent society. They want everybody from the left and the right and whatever your political allegiance to be happy.
00:31:37
Speaker
You know, it feels like sometimes, well I don't know about you, but it feels like I'm fighting a battle so try and to try and get these idiots And a lot of them are idiots. I'm trying to ch china to like pull the wall from their eyes and just open their eyes and say, look, guys, you can be happy. You can be a happy person.
00:31:54
Speaker
You can have a wife. You can have kids. You can have a great job. You can enjoy life. Life's beautiful. You can really take it by you know take the life by... by the horns and and and enjoy it. And it feels like I'm trying to, half the time, just make these people realize that.
00:32:11
Speaker
Whereas a lot of these victims on the left, the victimhood that they portray, they think, I want them to be happy and they think that I'm i'm trying to make their lives miserable.
00:32:22
Speaker
And I think that in very, very basic terms, that's what it comes down to. Yeah, I interviewed Gad Saad on this podcast when he wrote the book, The Sad Truth About Happiness, and he looked at actually the studies on happiness for conservatives and progressives, and it's consistent, it's gravity that across...
00:32:42
Speaker
generations, conservatives are considerably happier than progressives. I think that victimhood narrative is a part of it. If you always think of yourself as a victim, you're always going to be unhappy. But also, the whole idea of leftism is continuously trying to reach for this utopia.
00:32:58
Speaker
If you're continuously trying to reach for a utopia and you're never getting there, but really, happiness is just the gap between your expectation and reality. And that gap is always there for them. So it's, yeah, but moral moral of the story, kids, is, you know, if you,
00:33:12
Speaker
become a lefty, it's a recipe for an unhappy life. ah so It's a miserable existence and that's why the left can't even meme and there's something inherent inherently powerful in me. like and and Like you said, that's an another good point. You said they're reaching for this utopia. I think they're reaching for this utopia socially, politically, but most importantly they're reaching for this utopia inside themselves, which again is why I think it's a spiritual war.
00:33:36
Speaker
It's about knowing yourself, whether you're religious or not, it's about knowing your divinity inside And just being, again, it goes back to it, just being happy, but they're searching. That's why the trans movement, they're changing their bodies, they're mutilating their bodies because they think it will make them happy.
00:33:50
Speaker
When in fact, happiness comes from within. And I argue, you might call me a bit woo-woo, but you know just being grateful, having gratitude, appreciating life, looking at a flower. And that's what the great thing about kids, actually, they remind you of this.
00:34:03
Speaker
looking at a flower and saying, oh my God, I maybe not thought about this for a couple of decades, but that is a miracle from God. The color in that flower, the smell, it's coming out of nowhere because of the sun and the red, like it's crazy.
00:34:18
Speaker
Very simple thing. So they're reaching for this utopia of the country, politically, socially, most important, you know, in themselves. And they're looking in all the wrong places. And that's why they're so damn miserable. Miracle from God. That triggers something in my mind.
00:34:32
Speaker
Obviously, the UK is becoming an increasingly irreligious society, as is Australia. think it is declining as well in the US, but at a much slower rate. And you'll find that, and it is resurgent. Yeah. And there is this interesting resurgence amongst young people as well, which is really interesting.
00:34:49
Speaker
Have you noticed the you know If you're in polite society in the UK and you admit that you are a Christian, it's almost a bit naff or you you kind of have your nose turned up at you.
00:35:01
Speaker
Have you noticed so far the impact or the the the way that religion interweaves into politics in the US s in the way that perhaps it doesn't to the same degree in
Religion's Role in US Politics
00:35:10
Speaker
the yeah UK? Yeah. Oh yeah, they're ah they're full on over here. There's no shame about about religion or loving Jesus or or whatever.
00:35:18
Speaker
i mean, there is an argument that maybe politics shouldn't be guided by religion, right? But... the the West is built on Christian foundations and values. So I think it's very important. I think that's why we've gone so astray in recent years because people have just ignored God. And I say God, not necessarily from a Christian perspective, not some bearded guy sitting in the, in the sky, but just,
00:35:43
Speaker
just trust in a higher power or ah ah a greater good or the force of good against evil. If you believe evil exists, and I spoke to them Charlie Kirk about this, and it was very interesting conversation.
00:35:56
Speaker
I never used to think good and evil existed. I used to think, as I've just said to you, that maybe people have been brought up in different environments, different childhoods, maybe been exposed to different ideas. And that's why that's why we disagree politically. But Then I look at people like Axel Rudabacana, who killed the girls at Southport. I could name dozens of other people as well.
00:36:15
Speaker
I changed my mind. I think evil does exist. I think demons walk amongst us. And if you believe evil exists, you have to believe the opposite exists, like darkness to light. I believe God exists in some form.
00:36:28
Speaker
I've been going to, um since I've been here, Bible classes. Not because I necessarily... It doesn't take long, does it, for you? You want to hit the ground for them to get the conversion going. Yeah, their teeth into me. Well, look, I've always said on air back home in the UK during my shows and stuff, was like, look, I've always had some sort of affinity with Jesus.
00:36:50
Speaker
I went to a church of England school, but I'm not religious. I got married in a church. I just don't like the idea of organized religion. But I always call myself a cultural Christian, which many proper Christians don't like because because they're like, you can't be half in and half out.
00:37:03
Speaker
You can't be half in Jesus and half out. So I was like, okay. I never used to agree with that either. But I was like, okay. ah Some kids stopped me on the way to the Capitol one day and said, oh, do want to come to Bible class on Sunday? day And I was like,
00:37:14
Speaker
all right, well I've never really read the Bible. I'm very, very ignorant when it comes to its makeup, who wrote what, when and where. i've got I've heard things about, you know, thou shall not murder, but then why do Bible-bashing Christians here approve of the death penalty? I was like, well, how does that work out? So those are questions like that.
00:37:31
Speaker
So I've been going to Bible class just to kind of educate myself on the Bible. And yeah, it's been enlightening. And did just going back to the original question, i think I think we do. The West does need to find itself again when it comes to religion and particularly Christianity because we're built on Christian values, you know?
00:37:49
Speaker
And I think that's where we've gone wrong. Yeah, through a a strange series of circumstances, i found myself at Westminster Cathedral on Sunday at Mass with former Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott.
00:38:01
Speaker
And I myself am am an atheist, but I went along as a as a cultural experience. And the one thing which I did reflect on being there, it would have been the first time I've been in a church probably since in school. I also went to a church in England school.
00:38:15
Speaker
was we have vanishingly few parts of our world now where there are strong senses of community. you know particularly with more people working from home, with dating occurring via apps, with less people going to the pub.
00:38:33
Speaker
yeah There are less and less times where there are strong institutions that forge a sense of community. And whether or not you believe in the God bit, i can and this is probably – you know I was a militant atheist when I was younger and something which I've probably softened on is I can see now in a world which is becoming more disconnected the communal benefits of of religion in the way that perhaps I... And also I think about you know the beautiful village and rural churches of the United Kingdom and of England, which I would imagine are becoming more and more empty by the year.
00:39:13
Speaker
It is sad seeing that trend line you know and that that trend line continue. Yeah, and it also, to go back, as an example off the top of my head, also affects the trans issue, right? So these people think they can play God.
00:39:30
Speaker
Tucker Carlson said it quite eloquently. He said the trans movement is people thinking they can play God and decide they can change the course of of reality, of life by saying, well, no, um somebody made a mistake here.
00:39:42
Speaker
Nature made a mistake. And they are inherent they're basically saying, well, no, I know better than nature. I know better than God, whatever your perception of God is and And that's that's where the problem comes in because they then start, they then instead of, how do I articulate this?
00:40:01
Speaker
Instead of basing your foundations and your morality in and faith, And again, not necessarily some like hardcore religious faith, but just faith that the we are divine and we're being we're being looked after generally and and you know things work out for the better. You're playing God, which is ah I think is satanic actually.
00:40:23
Speaker
you read the Bible, it it will say as much as that you know people who he behave like that and start thinking they are they can change the course of nature, that is quite satanic in it and its being.
00:40:35
Speaker
In the time that we've got left, I want to pivot to how the US sees the UK today.
UK's Struggles with Jihadism
00:40:42
Speaker
I was on air on Saturday 5 on Saturday night when breaking news popped up on on my um my screen and it was a tweet from the Department of Homeland Security.
00:40:54
Speaker
And i don't know if you saw this. It said... wants to keep jihad out of our country. And then it had a recruitment link to the Department of Homeland Security, which was a not so subtle ah reference to the Manchester killer whose first name was... Well, they retweeted it.
00:41:13
Speaker
So that tweet you were referencing, they retweeted a story about the synagogue attack. So they were directly referencing it. Directly referencing it. Yeah. And now look, for the record, I think that was tasteless.
00:41:24
Speaker
But at the same time, it's a pretty interesting insight. yeah why why don't Why don't you think it was chasteless? Because I think the the Trump administration is warning its people, again, America first.
00:41:36
Speaker
Yes, we're an ally. Yes, we're friends and cousins with America. But they are warning in explicit terms, this is what will happen if we don't source ourselves out. And and I think that's half of the problem. We get bogged down in all this kind of like wishy-washy language. i don't want to offend you.
00:41:53
Speaker
That's not politically correct. You know, maybe that will upset somebody. It's like, no, time to get real, guys. Time to be frank and say at how it is. If you continue down this deranged path, as Trump said at the UN, your countries are going to hell.
00:42:06
Speaker
We're... maybe halfway to hell in the UK at the moment. I think we can still turn back and we can still turn back towards the light. But, you know, I think it's great. I love that tweet. And I did a section on it on my show. It went completely viral.
00:42:20
Speaker
I mean, it's embarrassing as a Brit. I'm afraid to say that the Americans are mocking us, but they've got a point. Well, this is going to be my question more broadly. how In the corridors of power, how do you think that the UK is perceived by politicians, leaders, you know, the elite of the United States today?
00:42:41
Speaker
They are gravely concerned. So I've been here five, five six weeks and we had a launch party, the GB News launch party over here. Lucky enough to speak to a few cabinet members from the Trump administration. Levitt was there.
00:42:55
Speaker
And also not just in the political elite, just everyday people. People were telling me at the Palestine process yesterday, they are gravely concerned for Britain. politicians are gravely concerned over policy such as the Online Safety Act because it's infringing on American companies.
00:43:09
Speaker
You know, you've got Graham Linehan being arrested at Heathrow for firing off a tweet he made on an American platform in America. that thats That is a ah grave assault on on American liberty.
00:43:20
Speaker
But also they're gravely concerned culturally and spiritually as well. they We are their cousins. They are them and you know we are the same people. They are concerned about what's happening to our country because they care.
00:43:35
Speaker
Trump cares. Trump's grandmother is, of course, Scottish. Elon Musk has British ancestry. I think his was his grandmother born in Liverpool or maybe his mother even. So these people genuinely do care. i know you get a lot of arguments from the left saying, well, they're just in it for money or they're just trying to grift. They don't need to care about England.
00:43:54
Speaker
Trump and and Rubio and Vance and Musk Ask yourself, i mean what would they have to gain from slagging off England and the United Kingdom?
00:44:05
Speaker
Can you think of anything? Yeah. Other than the fact that they genuinely care and i want to they want us to do well. Because if we do well, they do well. Yeah. Yeah. Whenever I speak to Australian politicians or everyday Aussies, when I occasionally head back to Australia, again, it is that same sense of surprise that And sadness.
00:44:28
Speaker
And I don't think Tony would have a problem with me saying that you know when I spoke to him and his reflections on coming into London the other day for the Conservative Party conference, it was that sense of sadness. He considers himself an Anglophile.
00:44:44
Speaker
ah at the way that the country is changing and changing so quickly and potentially changing irreversibly. So perhaps that's a good question to finish with, Ben, and and it will take you back to your country of birth, the country that you love.
00:45:00
Speaker
And I think you said earlier, you don't think it's too late for some sort of a revival, but What does the next five or 10 years look like for the UK and how optimistic are you that this dark position that we are in can be in some way salvaged?
00:45:16
Speaker
Oh, gosh. Well, we need, we need ah I mean, it's the economy, stupid, so we need to start need to start growing the economy. And I'm not just talking about GDP, GDP per capita. mean to start making you need to start making money.
00:45:29
Speaker
but But also, i mean, what does it look like in five to 10 years? i mean, polls suggest it will be reform and Nigra Farage. But the problem with that is I interviewed Liz Truss here the other day and I said, look, what what difference are reform going to make? You saw what you came up against with the deep state, the blob, the globalists.
00:45:45
Speaker
If you as the prime minister, the most powerful woman in Britain, were screwed over like that, couldn't get your agenda through, you were thwarted by these unelected for unknown institutions run by strange men in dark suits all sitting around the table. was like, if you couldn't do it, what chance is Nigel Farage? I mean, what's what's going to change in five years, four years, if and when Nigel Farage gets elected? He's going to come across the same problems as you, isn't he?
00:46:10
Speaker
And she was saying, yeah, she's yeah I mean, she said she's given some advice to Nigel, but she said the rot in England, and Raheem Kassam, Nigel Farage's former senior advisor, said the same thing. He said the rot in England, the deep state, the swamp, as Trump call it, is far deeper, grimier and murkier in Britain than it is in the United States. You think the US is bad?
00:46:28
Speaker
Our civil service is completely rotten to the core. This is what Liz Truss was telling me She says you don't just need reform, you need revolution. Logistically, how that happens When they get into government, I don't know. I mean, do they do they go around? and Can they go around sacking tens of thousands of civil servants? The Tories wanted or to before they were ousted. They wanted to get rid of 60,000 civil servants.
00:46:51
Speaker
So I think probably you have a reformed government. But my concern is how effective can they be? And also, i'll I'll say this, I'm gravely concerned for the safety of Nigel Farage as well, because I think the closer we get to the election, I'd say a year out or something, and it's we're still running as we are now, where a reformer leading the polls guaranteed to have a massive stonking majority.
00:47:12
Speaker
You know, they tried to kill Trump twice. ah tried to They Trump. They used lawfare. They raided his home. They did all sorts. Luckily, he still survived. By the grace of God, that bullet grazed us here.
00:47:26
Speaker
They killed Charlie Kirk. I'm worried about the safety of Nigel Farage. Yeah, sadly, I think that's a very, very legitimate concern. Ben, when can people in the UK watch you?
00:47:40
Speaker
And if perhaps they're not they not late to bed, when can they out where can they see you on other platforms? The Late Show Live broadcast live from Washington DC airs at midnight to 2am in the UK, 7pm Eastern Time in the United States, so little bit earlier.
00:47:56
Speaker
And Aussie time, I don't know what the hell midnight in the you tell me. Yeah, I can't recall. Although I will say that that you can watch GB News on Foxtel in Australia. I know that my mom and dad wake up on a Sunday morning and catch the Saturday 5.
00:48:13
Speaker
Must watch TV. I would ah strongly suggest every Aussie listening to this gets their fix of GB News. You can also catch up on YouTube on Ben's show as well. I believe that's right. Yeah.
00:48:23
Speaker
If... far if ah if you're not wanting to ah to do the early morning shift. Ben, mate, wonderful conversations. Great to see you doing so well in the States. Keep on keeping on.
00:48:35
Speaker
Thanks, dude. Really appreciate it. Great conversation. And yeah, hopefully I'll make an appearance back in London soon and we'll be on a show together.