Transcript
Chris Minnick: And we are live. Welcome to Moving Towards Better. And this is the first. of many of our new series of debates.
Chris Penick: Hey.
Chris Minnick: End. With you, as always, I am Chris Minnick, a .k .a. C Money.
Chris Penick: And I am Chris Pennick. No relation. a .k .a. DJ Crispy. And somewhere sometime one day we may explain all that. but Probably not. So just go with it.
Chris Minnick: Probably not. You can look it up on the internet, maybe.
Chris Penick: There you go. there I think we might be there.
Chris Minnick: I...
Chris Penick: So...
Chris Minnick: Wikipedia.
Chris Penick: Wikipedia. Do we have a Wikipedia entry? Hey, somebody you can't do your own.
Chris Minnick: No.
Chris Penick: So if anybody wants to. You know, feel free. I think wi Wikipedia is an awesome thing. um All right.
Chris Minnick: It's a good idea.
Chris Penick: So i'm I'm going to introduce. how this is going to work just so that the listeners ah can. not be too surprised. so we We found let's just I mean, let's transparency right here. We found that our most popular clips and our most popular episodes where those were where.
Chris Penick: The one thing we try not to debate too much. But we debated. It was AI. And. So rather than fighting it, We said, you know what?
Chris Penick: That's good. We can still make this work. we can find good learning resources and we can talk about this. So we're going to put a series here. of Learning and AI.
Chris Penick: debates Um... where one of us will take the pro, one will take the con. And there'll be a few of them. There won't be every episode from now on. We'll probably intersperse some. other exciting topics we still have our skill challenges which i am working on by the way Um...
Chris Minnick: I am too. Oh my god, it's it's intense.
Chris Penick: Oh. Okay. All right.
Chris Minnick: and' Yeah, we got to talk about that.
Chris Penick: There you go. I started with I bought a beginner's kit.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: i mean Can I repeat? Sure, we can repeat what it was.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: So I i was challenged to learn to crochet. because I keep mentioning all the time. And you were challenged.
Chris Minnick: to learn Morse code. By ear.
Chris Penick: Yeah. By ear.
Chris Minnick: Like.
Chris Penick: Well, it is.
Chris Minnick: And apparently that is the best way to learn it. so
Chris Penick: There you go, there you go, so be
Chris Minnick: Writing Morse code isn't so fun.
Chris Penick: Nah.
Chris Minnick: or useful.
Chris Penick: now. Now, well... I will give an update on this that I did. Go get a little beginner's kit. It's advertised that way.
Chris Minnick: Awesome.
Chris Penick: um It's from a company called Woobles, W -O -O -B -L -E -S. You're now our sponsor.
Chris Minnick: Mm -hmm.
Chris Penick: You just didn't know it yet.
Chris Minnick: Cool.
Chris Penick: um We have all these sponsors. I love it.
Chris Minnick: Yep.
Chris Penick: And. um Let's just say that I already had to go. It's got little step -by -step videos. So you go. do this. Now, then you go to the next video, do this. And it's literally got.
Chris Penick: you know, their hands right in front of your eyes.
Chris Minnick: hu
Chris Penick: And I still had to, I gotta go back. So they said, if you get stuck.
Chris Minnick: Yeah. do you Did you mess it up already?
Chris Penick: Yep, I messed it up already.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: undo If i looked I looked away for one second and she had two loops on her little hook and I only had one. I'm like...
Chris Minnick: ah
Chris Penick: So she says, when anytime you want to go back and, you know, you can. Pull out the whole thing. And go back to... And try it again. So.
Chris Minnick: Mm hmm.
Chris Penick: There you go. There's an update where I'm at.
Chris Minnick: Cool.
Chris Penick: Alright.
Chris Minnick: Well...
Chris Penick: So today...
Chris Minnick: where i'm well william Wait a minute now. we i get to tired i get I get to talk about where I'm at.
Chris Penick: Oh, ah you need an update. Yeah, I'm sorry. Go. No, you don't
Chris Minnick: you know Ow.
Chris Penick: No, yeah, you do. Go ahead.
Chris Minnick: Whatever, man.
Chris Penick: Go ahead. Go ahead.
Chris Minnick: i
Chris Penick: I mean, this is... this I'm already getting... Ready for the debate. See you.
Chris Minnick: dee dee dee Da -dee -dit! did it
Chris Penick: Yeah.
Chris Minnick: Beep. Beep. Beep. Do -do -do. Do do do. Dee dee dee.
Chris Penick: Did you just cuss me out in in Morse code?
Chris Minnick: Did it!
Chris Penick: Is that what that was?
Chris Minnick: If anyone can tell me what that means, then you win today's.
Chris Penick: You win the challenge.
Chris Minnick: moving towards better prize.
Chris Penick: There you go, which is... A satisfaction of a job well done.
Chris Minnick: any any book from this shelf any yellow and black colored book from this shelf
Chris Penick: Oh!
Chris Penick: There you go. Any yellow and black colored book.
Chris Minnick: Yep.
Chris Penick: Wow. That is quite the, the that I like that. We now give out prizes. Okay. All right.
Chris Minnick: signed by me yes
Chris Penick: Signed by you. That's actually, that is worth something. I have one or two of those folks and I'm telling you that's keep it. Keep it. All right. Matters. All right. Well then, so today's...
Chris Penick: Debate. And we're going to... We'll phrase it this way. We'll just say... Start with the idea of. Should people... learning something should learners use AI tutors every day.
Chris Penick: And I want to stress that the important part there is not necessarily the every day. it's it's you The schedule is not the thing that we're debating. It's more about... you know Are there good use cases?
Chris Penick: For AI tutors or. As. C -Money is going to take probably the other side. that uh Maybe not. Or, you know, here's some some. troubling use cases so we're going to try to keep this
Chris Minnick: mm -hmm
Chris Penick: a sort of informal debate format. Those of you who took debate in high school or college don't hold this to it too much, but you know, that's... So I am going to.
Chris Minnick: I have no debate experience and I'm going up against.
Chris Penick: And...
Chris Minnick: Mr. Debate here. ah
Chris Penick: No, no, no.
Chris Minnick: aka chris pennick aka a .a. Uh, DJ Crispy, aka Mr. Debate.
Chris Penick: Yeah, well, there there was a time.
Chris Minnick: So.
Chris Penick: So as I've mentioned before here, so I. With the Army, I was in JAG, Judge Advocate General Corps, and all that. means is that I was a glorified paralegal. But one of the things that we did during training is we would do. mock trials.
Chris Penick: So we'd have to. present evidence and we'd have to debate. uh you know and say why this particular soldier was guilty or not guilty you know whatever the case was so so that that's most of my background and then a little bit in high school a little bit in high school.
Chris Penick: I never was on the debate team or anything geeky like that. I would have loved to.
Chris Minnick: all right
Chris Penick: I think that sounds cool.
Chris Minnick: My...
Chris Penick: So let's do it. You ready?
Chris Minnick: my debate My debate experience, just for you know for full disclosure here.
Chris Penick: Yeah. To justify. When I trounce you.
Chris Minnick: Is. Well, no, I'm not going to say you're going to trounce me because i have a for I have a background in... in in blogging. And in the 90s, I ran a zine. which means I am extraordinarily good at making wild statements about things.
Chris Minnick: and going way over the top I am prone to hyperbole, and this is how I'm going to win this debate.
Chris Penick: That's it. That's how you're gonna win. All right. I like it. Okay Alright, so... You now know our art. Where we're coming from here, you now know the premise. We're going to just kind of phrase it simply first, which is should learners use AI tutors every day? And I'm going to start off with kind of a...
Chris Penick: ah you know, a use case with that. And I i think. that So I'm going to get some time to present my case. Then we're going to give it to C -Money to present his case. Then we'll have a lively little back and forth section.
Chris Penick: And then we'll we'll see what's best for you. What I want you to get out of this debate is not, yes, this is great, or no, this isn't. Something you can take away and use. So...
Chris Penick: If, you know. We might as well face it. AI is out there. All right, so we're going to help you come to the decision on how to use it wisely. If at all. sometimes maybe the best choice is not to use it for certain use cases.
Chris Penick: right But this is all about use cases. So I'm going to say... I think that if... You use an AI tutor. as sort of a daily... and optional.
Chris Penick: daily practice partner. I think that that's... the One of the strongest use cases is if it's one that will get you to do more thinking. Followed by where... it You have to do a check of what it's getting you to think about And you do that without the AI.
Chris Penick: In other words, So what I am not proposing, I actually don't think like but most of the language. tutors are great. ah You know. especially the ones that...
Chris Minnick: Now, wait a minute here. You're stating both cases before you even art get your shot five minutes to argue here.
Chris Penick: Okay, okay. All right. Hold on. Let me let me give me let me get my my my case. All right. Some good, good claims.
Chris Minnick: Alright.
Chris Penick: All right. So... Um. For example, All right. If. You were. Let's say you were studying history. Oh, oh wait, wait. I know a real case example here. All right. The U .S. Citizenship. citizenship test is online.
Chris Penick: And it is a set set of questions. They've expanded the set. and One of the things that I've... had Some family members do that were.
Chris Penick: working on this is Yes. Ask. The AI. tutor to quiz you on those questions because ah it's a known set of questions. It has a fixed set.
Chris Penick: And you can, of course, you don't. Now you can use it then to coach you on retrieving because that's really, they'll pick, I think. ive i don't remember exactly how many but in your citizenship interview they pick like six It's a 10 question. 10.
Chris Penick: That's right, 10. They picked 10 questions out of this. Couple hundred set. And you need to answer them. you know like you know What are the departments of the government and all those things? so I think as ah as a... quizzing partner or retrieval partner.
Chris Penick: There's a good use case. That's that's my my big one. Um. And. you know it's the Some of those tutors out there. Like Notebook LLM back in the day.
Chris Penick: can take existing materials. So if you've got a PDF of all those questions. You could feed it to the AI tutor. And without requiring you to prepare every question manually. so So my case there is I think it could speed up.
Chris Penick: some retrieval coaching. And then I. I think um I may be hitting my five minute mark too. There, I'm getting close.
Chris Minnick: No, you got plenty of time. I think you got about...
Chris Penick: I got plenty of time
Chris Minnick: Two more minutes, at least.
Chris Penick: Okay. All right.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: So I think. As a. In addition to that then, so it's a retrieval coach, then the other use case that it might work well. is as some sort of like Just a hint, you know, a hint only.
Chris Penick: Problem coach. um We all know. So let's say like with a ah math course. So, you know, that it's you get stuck.
Chris Penick: After making a genuine attempt. Sometimes all you need is a hint to go to the next step. um And there are certain ways like, I don't know, taking derivatives. There are certain ways to do that. There are steps or finding signs and cosines. There are steps. And AI can help you with that.
Chris Penick: Um... you know So those two... Use cases. I think are are pretty... Good. Um... And then... I'm going to add one to this, one more, because I got a little time here so we can argue against all three of these. i I'm giving quite a few use cases here at the beginning.
Chris Penick: I think for mock interview type of situations. um you know, soft skills where. It doesn't matter what job. You're interviewing for... ah The business. some From receptionists, from the mailroom to some executive. Boardroom.
Chris Penick: You know, if you give the scenario and the context to the AI tutor, I think it could come up with some good questions to at least. make you think right you know And there's no right answer to those, right? There's just answers that...
Chris Penick: What would it tell it to play the role of a... interviewer What would the interviewer like to hear? It's practice. there so And those those three, I think that could be helpful. i ah Anything much more than that.
Chris Penick: We'll see. I'm sure I've got some other use cases, but that's my platform for now. I'm going to turn it over to you. Alright. Okay, so... And I guess basically you can give me, you know.
Chris Penick: What's what's what's your your misuse cases as we describe in cybersecurity? I know we're avoiding computer topics, but.
Chris Minnick: All right, well.
Chris Penick: Yeah.
Chris Minnick: Let's see.
Chris Penick: Or if you want to counter my own.
Chris Minnick: My...
Chris Penick: There you go.
Chris Minnick: No, I'm not going to count you yet because I've got, I mean, I've got some my own points here. I think there are several issues with using.
Chris Penick: Okay?
Chris Minnick: AI as a tutor. Number one.
Chris Penick: Okay.
Chris Minnick: large language models. are Not. people. ah They are not, um they're not even thinking machines. They are. Next. token next word prediction machines.
Chris Minnick: So... They are. Behind it all, the model is going to give you the next most likely. word in a string of words with some ah additional accommodations for Uh, wanting to be helpful.
Chris Minnick: So it's not going to. you know spit out you know string of curses at you like My. high school band tutor would. for for example example. And you're not going to learn the same kinds of things you're going to learn you're going to get positive reinforcement excessive positive positive reinforcement which is not helpful in a lot of cases if you suck at something It's good to know if you suck at something.
Chris Minnick: And. An AI. tutor is not going to tell you that you suck. It's also not going to help you with socialization types of things.
Chris Minnick: If you have really bad BO. Your tutor is going to bring this up. at some point. Your...
Chris Penick: Good.
Chris Minnick: Chad GPT is not going to. A human tutor will. They'll say, Chris, you know. You might want to take a shower before our...
Chris Minnick: sessions here. And so this is this is an important part. you know Socialization is an important aspect of growing up, of being a person.
Chris Minnick: And if you are. Just kidding. your education from an AI. tutor, you are not getting that benefit. And at my third point.
Chris Minnick: So.
Chris Penick: right
Chris Minnick: LLMs are not people. ah LLMs do not help to socialize a person. and they're even bad interviewers because i mean and this probably will get better but you know if you ever try talking over an ai you will just cut the cut off mid sentence ah rather than trying to finish their thought.
Chris Minnick: And then it gets really really awkward. And AI interviews are the worst. I've had a number of them now. uh
Chris Penick: m
Chris Minnick: They're terrible. My third point... Is that. Tutoring is not just for the student. Tutoring is... a really good thing for the tutor.
Chris Minnick: Uh, people People learn. This is how people learn. to teach. is by tutoring, by mentoring. but you Well.
Chris Minnick: On one end, you've got people learn to teach by tutoring. So if you're like an assistant. Uh, professor you know a ta or something you're tutoring on the other end of your life you're mentoring people who you know You've been there. You've done it all. You've seen it all. you are now an expert in whatever, and you tutor people on the...
Chris Minnick: Maths or whatnot. And so those are my three points. And so I am against it. Uh... And... Let's have it out.
Chris Penick: Okay. All right. okay so let Let me... to counter some of those. The first one about thinking machines and they aren't really doing any reasoning. Um...
Chris Penick: that That may be true for a lot of models. But... They're more than just next token generators. They are extreme pattern matchers in some of the more advanced models.
Chris Penick: to the point that they are matching whole...
Chris Minnick: grant
Chris Penick: chunks of content. you know, to to the point that they're matching paragraphs. in there you know and like i said we've joked about before about you know i could probably get an ai agent to sort of reproduce one of your books And if it did... of course you If it was trained on that, right. It's, it's giving away your book.
Chris Penick: For free. That's another issue. That's another argument we can have. But I do think they're... the at least the illusion. Okay. Of. of reasoning is there enough to the point where it could be as effective as having somebody reading from a few randomly selected scripts.
Chris Penick: Alright, which is what you might get. With... a tutor now hold on all right i want i want to hit point by point here okay
Chris Minnick: oh Alright.
Chris Penick: Excessive positive reinforcement. uh actually that one i i will i will concede with you on that that those So again, so I think we're finding rules then for our learners when you know you want to find or.
Chris Penick: Get a tutor or a ori tool. that is not going to just say, yay, that was great. Bravo. Here's some gems or some points for you.
Chris Penick: Sorry, Duolingo.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: um You know, here's some, whatever, the gamification of everything. We'll talk, that's another topic for another day too.
Chris Minnick: Oh man. Yeah.
Chris Penick: Um... The socialization, I think that's a little unfair here because right now we're just talking about, yeah, obviously. i mean until somebody puts a smell sensor into the computer you know, and
Chris Minnick: I guess and we weren't we weren't talking about you know this versus that. and so
Chris Penick: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and so I'm like that one.
Chris Minnick: Granted.
Chris Penick: Okay. I'm going to say a little, I'm going to put a little star next to that and say, well, that's not really the debate here. um However... However, I will say that.
Chris Penick: did Did this touch, this sounded a little personal when you got to that section. Please, please.
Chris Minnick: The smelly part.
Chris Penick: you know Yeah, I hope that... I mean... I've had teenage boys at home, so I know. you know In high school, you know I'm just saying. OK, but that's not a part of the debate either.
Chris Minnick: ah
Chris Penick: All right.
Chris Minnick: We'll... Yeah. and yeah
Chris Penick: i I do agree. I have another thing that I do agree with you that tutoring. is good for the tutor. I worked as a tutor in high school. I worked as a tutor in college. um And it helped me clarify, but that goes back to yet.
Chris Penick: Something else we've talked about before, which is the Feynman method, right? of
Chris Minnick: hu
Chris Penick: You don't really know it until you have to teach it to somebody else in simple terms.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: And if you can't, then go back and study it some more so that you can. Um... That again Sort of unfair, because you're... anthropomorphizing the tool I'm just talking about using AI as a tool for tutoring yourself.
Chris Minnick: Well... this
Chris Minnick: They're taking my job.
Chris Penick: Yeah, well, I get that. Okay, there you go. That's a con. that's a con i'll take it and and it's still a con right that they're taking it away from the human
Chris Minnick: Yeah. Okay.
Chris Penick: Right. If, if you're using this to substitute. Okay. So all right so here's i'm gonna i'm gonna stop for a second so i'm gonna ask you know a question of you on this one, then...
Chris Penick: If... Would it be such a problem? If it was a specific scenario. that you were experimenting or working with.
Chris Penick: you know, um Well, I'll go back to the military. So in the military, we have specific scenarios or your Morse code. If it was quizzing you and making beep, beep, beep. you know for you
Chris Minnick: yeah You don't see it. I look at like every use case for generative AI.
Chris Penick: mm -hmm
Chris Minnick: um that currently is out there right now. and We'll just take yours, for example. Your first one was. Well, it can you know quiz you on citizenship questions. and
Chris Penick: Yep.
Chris Minnick: vocabulary.
Chris Penick: Yep.
Chris Minnick: Flashcards work great for that.
Chris Penick: Sure.
Chris Minnick: Alright. you know and that's there's there's already There's already a solution for this. I. interviews, mock interviews. Friends were Great for that.
Chris Minnick: um you know
Chris Penick: What if you have no friends?
Chris Minnick: And. Then you've got a problem.
Chris Penick: Sorry.
Chris Minnick: You're using AI too much.
Chris Penick: that's That's a whole other episode, too, right? so you know Don't fall in love with your AI tool.
Chris Minnick: ahem
Chris Penick: Okay. Got it.
Chris Minnick: Oh God, no kidding.
Chris Penick: Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Minnick: Yep.
Chris Penick: Yeah. Alright. Okay. um So. I still... Right. Yes, flashcards exist.
Chris Penick: but so do digital flashcards. i mean even anki
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: the big promoter Of. flashcards, right? And Anki is a great tool. I have the app on every device I have, I have Anki installed.
Chris Minnick: Yep.
Chris Penick: And if you're not familiar with Anki, folks... then I have a feeling many of you may already be, because it seems a very popular thing, but Anki is spaced repetition, meaning that...
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: You go through the flashcards. You try to give your answer. You have to answer honestly. You're judging yourself. You're correcting yourself saying, yes, I remember that or no, I didn't. And then things that you didn't remember, it comes back later.
Chris Penick: things that you really were good at. they come back even later because there's this sort of decay in memory and you have to... Refresh it every so often.
Chris Minnick: huh Yep.
Chris Penick: um So... Anki? Right. But now... Okay. And that's... So why not, get you know, AI to help me build my own.
Chris Penick: Anki around a particular subject.
Chris Minnick: I think because there's no need for AI in that case. And I think also that people are... more likely to cheat. when they're using AI. I.
Chris Minnick: flashcards, something determinative. where it's like it's going to keep score and you know the score is based on the number you got right and the number you got wrong. You can't cheat that.
Chris Minnick: with AI. You can be like, oh, give me another try, would you, Siri?
Chris Penick: See.
Chris Minnick: or you know chat gpt
Chris Penick: I, oh wait, I gotta disagree. I got to disagree with that premise right there.
Chris Minnick: Um.
Chris Penick: You can absolutely cheat with Anki. Because it literally just asks you, green check.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: Yes, i I remember that. or red x no i didn't And I do that all the time. i I'm like, yeah, oh, yeah, that's the one I was thinking about. And i accidentally in I accidentally, I'm air quoting that, folks, again, for those just listening.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: I accidentally pressed the green check. So, I mean, I don't think that's any different there.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: i think where we have to argue on that one. is... Is it useful? for Is there something that the AI tutor can add to a quiz like that?
Chris Penick: So maybe I think you might have me a little bit. I think, you know. Yeah, if I was going to recommend to somebody for like the citizenship test. I am sure there are Anki sets out there that someone can...
Chris Penick: Download. All right.
Chris Minnick: Yeah, or, you know, you you you get... You learn by like I learn a lot of things by I've got you know, a lot of index cards and I just will like you know,
Chris Penick: Mm -hmm.
Chris Penick: Oh yeah.
Chris Minnick: I start out, if I want to learn something, you know like ah music theory, let's say. I will start out by, you know, writing scales on index cards. And this is something you know where you you do that.
Chris Penick: Sure.
Chris Minnick: And that actually helps you to learn.
Chris Penick: Okay.
Chris Minnick: the actual creation of the
Chris Penick: Oh.
Chris Minnick: flashcards there. itself.
Chris Penick: All right, so i will I will submit for the first. Use case. I think, I think right. The better tool. would be some either physical paper flashcards.
Chris Penick: or a digital flashcard like Anki, or there are tons of those apps on, you know, on the, in the Google store and in the.
Chris Minnick: Yeah. yeah
Chris Penick: the iPhone. app store um Yeah. Tons of them out there are even cheaper free. Okay, I'll submit on that one. I will push back on...
Chris Penick: the interviewing. And part of that is I have tried to have friends. You know... you know you I've tried to explain.
Chris Minnick: I'm trying to have friends.
Chris Penick: I've tried to have friends. There's your right there. That's it. Okay. i we that That's going to be on every Instagram little three seconds short.
Chris Minnick: Yeah, yeah.
Chris Penick: I have tried to have friends. I have tried to have friends interview. for me or ask questions of me. And here's the the problem. what I do. What you do...
Chris Penick: Um... Could you have Jill explain what you do?
Chris Minnick: I don't know.
Chris Penick: Yeah, okay. My wife frequently brings up...
Chris Minnick: It's
Chris Penick: with her office, she says, my, you know, she tries to the office will ask oh so what does your husband do And she says, K -
Chris Minnick: Oh, explain what I thought you were talking about, like a particular tick that you had in mind that was like, there's this thing you do, Chris.
Chris Penick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I... i
Chris Minnick: Ask Jill.
Chris Penick: No, no, I mean
Chris Minnick: She'll tell you.
Chris Penick: Oh, I mean like a particular like your job or your your profession.
Chris Minnick: yeah
Chris Penick: I mean, you know.
Chris Minnick: Okay.
Chris Penick: And for the most part.
Chris Minnick: Ha ha.
Chris Penick: I mean, my wife could say, oh, well, he teaches. computer stuff online.
Chris Minnick: huh
Chris Penick: And maybe it he works with AI.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: and and And that'll be the end of it. And then if they ask pursuing questions, she's like, um... Right. She can't explain. So now imagine putting my wife. who is my best friend.
Chris Penick: Come on. There you go. so my My best friend in a scenario where she's got to interview me for a job.
Chris Minnick: Well... I guess.
Chris Penick: Where?
Chris Minnick: heres Here's my offer to you, Chris.
Chris Penick: I can point the AI tutor. to that job listing.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: and say, Now interview me for that job.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Minnick: Okay. Well, I can. Yeah. Okay. I'll give you this one. Uh,
Chris Penick: all Alright.
Chris Minnick: You know, fair is fair.
Chris Penick: All right.
Chris Minnick: I... If you asked me to interview you for a specific job, I would ask you something like. Sell me my pen. you know And that's not really going to be helpful.
Chris Penick: Yeah.
Chris Minnick: They're not going to ask that when you go and interview it.
Chris Penick: Yeah. No.
Chris Minnick: you know anthropic
Chris Penick: Right.
Chris Minnick: ah They're going to ask you. So... I see you want to interview here at Anthropic. Why do you want to work at Anthropic? And so i'm just that's my imitation of the.
Chris Penick: Oh!
Chris Minnick: The AI voice.
Chris Penick: The robot interviewer.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: Yeah. Wait, wait. So now did you... So. You've been through actual, like... where the AI was interviewing you.
Chris Minnick: Yes.
Chris Penick: Oh. I have not. had to suffer through that i
Chris Minnick: and
Chris Penick: ah So I will give you that. I don't want AI to... actually be making some of these decisions.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: you know I want. AI to help me practice for when I talk to a human.
Chris Minnick: I didn't get past the AI interview any.
Chris Penick: So...
Chris Minnick: Ever.
Chris Penick: Don't know well I told you about the one... Thing I put out so but
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: i'll I'll keep that off the the podcast for right now, but back in the day.
Chris Minnick: Yeah sure.
Chris Penick: so
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: Um. Yeah, but. Okay, so... But I can see. But like if you're you know, if you have a clear job description out there and you've got your resume, you can give the two.
Chris Penick: to your AI tutor and say, okay.
Chris Minnick: hu
Chris Penick: Show me what to talk about in my resume.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: Or... highlight in my resume when you know they're interviewing, where how do I fit with this job? And that's, you know, comparing two documents that sure you could do on your own, but I think that's where AI.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: excels it's It's really, again, it's just pattern matching.
Chris Minnick: And it's a, it's an open question still as to whether that is actually accurate or just sounds accurate.
Chris Penick: But...
Chris Minnick: And. I i don't.
Chris Penick: Yeah.
Chris Minnick: yet know anyone who has um had their you know, like had their resume optimized. by AI or like prepared for an interview with AI who's actually gotten the job.
Chris Minnick: Um, Of course, I don't know anyone who's gotten a job in the last like three years.
Chris Penick: It's yeah, I
Chris Minnick: Period.
Chris Penick: Um... I wonder, I'll have to ask some of my students in the...
Chris Minnick: I...
Chris Penick: in the
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: in the uh you know engineer programs if they've
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: I mean, in a way they have because they've they've gone on to. You know you and I have worked with yeah the insurance company and the delivery company I've been doing.
Chris Minnick: hu Yeah.
Chris Penick: so Okay. all right so i all right so i think we're one and one right now and i'm trying to remember Let's see now i see. This is why I wrote some things down here. The socialization, I think we decided well that we can't really do that.
Chris Minnick: Should have written things down.
Chris Penick: I do absolutely...
Chris Minnick: There wasn't a question.
Chris Penick: I do absolutely agree. with your tutoring is good for the tutor. and that's So that's one thing we can take away. I want to see if we can come up with some some takeaways for everybody here.
Chris Penick: Um,
Chris Minnick: I think that is an excellent takeaway right there is that. You know. If you are using, anytime you're using AI as a substitute for human interaction, that's bad.
Chris Minnick: And that's going to be a whole nother topic.
Chris Penick: Okay.
Chris Minnick: But.
Chris Penick: Right.
Chris Minnick: Also... Don't use... ai as the easy way. Maybe. And.
Chris Penick: Yeah.
Chris Minnick: If there's, I mean, if like.
Chris Penick: Yeah.
Chris Minnick: Going to the gym. is like you know if you're either like well i can get try to get fit by talking to chat gpt or by going to the gym you know which one is going to actually work.
Chris Penick: Well, okay
Chris Minnick: And.
Chris Penick: Yeah, but again, I think you're comparing you're comparing physical to digital, and that's where...
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Minnick: I...
Chris Penick: yeah It's a little bit of a cheat. But i'm gonna i I am going to go back to one more.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: So this is, so I think AI tutors can, I think ah the ultimate is very specific use cases and AI tutor can be helpful. And I'm going to give you a demonstration of where I think it could be helpful because I mentioned like calculus.
Chris Penick: And. I love math, but It's weird. I can't remember math. processes for the life of me formulas. So... Something along the lines of...
Chris Penick: You're going to an AI. tool. whichever whatever it is, and saying, solve this for me. No, bad. See, so I think this relies on you making good use of the tool. But if I said, help me find the first.
Chris Penick: Mistake. I made in this step or first step that's incorrect. You know, show it my work. You know, heck, you could even do that with. um But there are apps like there's one called PhotoMath.
Chris Penick: that does that and microsoft had one for a long time too where you could take a picture of your homework And then you could ask it, where did I go wrong?
Chris Minnick: huh
Chris Penick: you know,
Chris Minnick: hu
Chris Penick: Instead of doing this. solve this for me, I don't like. because that's that's just like you know the calculator versus by hand
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: Thanks.
Chris Minnick: It's a slippery slope though, isn't it? I think.
Chris Penick: Sure.
Chris Minnick: you know And and i don't I don't claim to have all the answers. And I know that. some of my thinking may be too traditionalist and you know time may prove me to be the you know totally wrong one here.
Chris Minnick: ah Or... I may not be negative enough because we may have a whole generation of kids who not only are addicted to their phones, but also have never had a real Teacher.
Chris Penick: Yeah.
Chris Minnick: And...
Chris Penick: Well...
Chris Minnick: And I worry about that.
Chris Penick: so okay i'm going to give you all right so i'm going to close this up then but i'm going to give you one more thing to actually help your site a little bit on this so i was looking up you know You know me, I'm i'm constantly like looking for resources on anything I bring up.
Chris Penick: I have I treat the computer and the Internet like a second brain because I don't memorize anything.
Chris Minnick: huh
Chris Penick: And I did find there was a case at a high school. They did an experiment. In 2025, actually. that if they gave the students in the math class. unrestricted AI assistance.
Chris Penick: It improved practice performance. but reduced subsequent unaided. performance. And it said, but the if they did, so they did a study. They gave the other group, they gave one group teacher designed hints.
Chris Penick: And using teacher designed hints.
Chris Minnick: hu
Chris Penick: largely mitigated that. mitigated that harm. So I'm backing you up on this, I think. I think, yes, I think it all boils down to keeping a human in control.
Chris Penick: of the learning experience.
Chris Minnick: Right on.
Chris Penick: So if you're going to use AI as a tutor, there's our there's our closing thing. If you're going to use AI as a tutor for yourself, make sure you're in control.
Chris Minnick: Yep.
Chris Penick: And you can find some way outside the AI to verify those answers. Like my citizenship test. There's a known set.
Chris Minnick: Yep.
Chris Penick: you You can look it up at one of the .gov websites.
Chris Minnick: Yep.
Chris Penick: If you're using AI to practice an interview. you know don't let it overly flatter you. But again, you're the one in control. You got to say. Okay, wait, you know. double check, maybe find somebody in the industry to also do that interview with you.
Chris Penick: to practice.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: you know Find a mentor.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: Everybody needs a mentor.
Chris Minnick: it's very hard to not let it flatter you.
Chris Penick: so But yeah.
Chris Minnick: Because we all love to be special.
Chris Penick: I...
Chris Penick: I thought I was going to be, you know, that according to to... to claude i was gonna you know get all this money so
Chris Minnick: now No, you got it.
Chris Penick: All right.
Chris Minnick: Go back to Mr. Egan back in... you know, ninth grade. Sitting there chain -smoking and telling me I you know that it was obvious they hadn't practiced
Chris Penick: No.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: Okay, well, see, you had that. I had the piano i had the piano teacher that would would hold sharpened pencils under my wrist so that if I dropped my wrist...
Chris Minnick: Oh.
Chris Penick: Yeah.
Chris Minnick: hu
Chris Penick: I'm like, yeah, no, I'd rather let the AI teach me piano at that point.
Chris Minnick: oh Cool.
Chris Penick: there, but...
Chris Minnick: let's see ai let's see ai have a pencil yep
Chris Penick: At least it doesn't stick it doesn't stick me with pencils. Yeah. Wait until, well. Then the term the Terminators come and they say, you failed. So boom. Yeah, it's done. All right. So I think we we week we came up. So you agree, I think, with our closing verdict on this that.
Chris Minnick: Yep.
Chris Penick: AI is useful. Only if... You maintain, you don't let it. Overly flatter you. Right? You maintain some... other source of truth.
Chris Penick: Right? So like you know like the fixed second of questions.
Chris Minnick: Yep.
Chris Penick: And... It's not worth the cost. If there is some... Other. Like Anki, it's already there. So if, you know.
Chris Minnick: Exactly.
Chris Penick: Okay. I think we've got some good advice for for our listeners then on that.
Chris Minnick: Yep.
Chris Penick: all right Excellent. All right, so Next time around, we we'll we'll do this again. we We're going to try to take these with use cases as we go. um I know one of them that I have in mind is I want to hit language learning apps.
Chris Penick: o
Chris Minnick: oh
Chris Penick: I have a love hate there.
Chris Minnick: Yeah, it sounds good
Chris Penick: I want to do that at some point. um You know, there's even now AI art tutors and AI music. And so we'll touch on all that.
Chris Minnick: o
Chris Penick: We'll we'll hit that.
Chris Minnick: Yep.
Chris Penick: But we won't. Take over the whole. court the whole channel, the whole thing with just these debates.
Chris Minnick: No.
Chris Penick: So tune in next time, as as we say, right? Same bad time, same bad channel.
Chris Minnick: Rocking, yes.
Chris Penick: there you go
Chris Minnick: Yeah, some bat time, some bat channel.
Chris Penick: Some bad channel.
Chris Minnick: Thank you.
Chris Penick: Find us.
Chris Minnick: Alright.
Chris Penick: Like and subscribe, right?
Chris Minnick: Cool.
Chris Penick: Wait, we almost forgot our arrows.
Chris Minnick: Yep.
Chris Penick: Like and subscribe.
Chris Minnick: Liking and subscribing is really important, you know, help us ah
Chris Penick: Yeah.
Chris Minnick: you know. I get. Achieve that podcasting dream.
Chris Penick: the website is up i don't know if we have a do we have an easy place for people to put things on the website.
Chris Minnick: All right.
Chris Penick: We should probably set that up. where
Chris Minnick: yeah we do there's a form on the website if you want to sponsor Or...
Chris Penick: If you have an idea or...
Chris Minnick: Leave us notes on an episode, send in an idea.
Chris Penick: Yep.
Chris Minnick: If you'd like to be interviewed on the podcast, you can let us know through the website. At moving towards better.
Chris Penick: And we've got some good ones coming up.
Chris Minnick: Dot.
Chris Penick: With that too.
Chris Minnick: org o -r -g
Chris Penick: Moving. Moving towards better. with a Towards with an S. dot org Moving towards better.
Chris Minnick: Yes.
Chris Penick: dot org Go there and then you can go find your podcast wherever you get your podcasts.
Chris Minnick: Cool.
Chris Penick: so
Chris Minnick: Well, thanks Chris. This was fun.
Chris Penick: That was fun. I liked it. i i Did we... I think we gave some some good advice there. we can Without the AI.
Chris Minnick: Yeah.
Chris Penick: There you go. All right. But...
Chris Minnick: it. Cut it off here.
Chris Penick: All right, so I look forward to the next challenge.
Chris Minnick: Me too.
Chris Penick: We'll see. we'll We'll try this again. We'll debate again. all Alright.
