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We Lost a Son and a Daughter in the Same Day | Pr. Courtney & Erica Robinson | The Upgrade w Joe Adevai #004
218 Plays2 months ago
Pastor Joe and Alicia sit down with Associate Pastor Courtney Robinson and his wife Erica for one of the most emotional conversations you'll ever hear. Courtney and Erica both grew up in Kingston, Jamaica, met through a cadet program and a little sister who decided the cure for her big sister's depression was a boyfriend. Erica opens up about childhood molestation, being given away at birth, kidnapped by her own parents, and the walls she built to survive. Courtney shares how he went from being a well-known cadet leader to the loneliest walk of his life at 17 when his family broke apart and he was the only one sent back to the neighborhood they escaped. Together they walk through building a life from nothing in Jamaica, getting married the same day they put the roof on their first house, and eventually making it to the U.S. where everything was tested. The heartbreaking loss of their son CJ, a wrongful CPS case that separated them from their daughter for four months, and the question of how you keep trusting God when the worst keeps happening. This episode will wreck you and rebuild you at the same time. It's only up from here.
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Transcript
A Day of Tragedy
00:00:00
Speaker
I lost a son and a daughter in the same day. Child Protective Services says, you know what? They they called us um from the operating room and said, they're not sure what's going on with your son if if on if any abuse might be involved. So we have to protect the little one. So they took our daughter.
00:00:23
Speaker
So in one moment, lost two kids.
Introduction to Guests
00:00:30
Speaker
Welcome to the upgrade everybody. It's only up from here. We have some amazing guests with us today. Pastor Courtney Robinson, we call him PC. We have his beautiful wife, Erica. They are leaders at Grace Church. Amazing people. you're going to hear their story. And of course, my beautiful wife. She's our women's pastor, Pastor Alicia. I call her Alicia.
00:00:52
Speaker
And they are both leaders in our church, just important, amazing people in our lives. And we are so glad to have here. And their story is unbelievable. We're just going to freestyle today. We're going to get into their life and how they got to where they are. And they're going to share and and just the amazing things they're doing right now in their life. and But let's start with the where are you guys from? Where'd you grow up?
Jamaican Roots and Meeting
00:01:18
Speaker
How'd you meet? Hey, so here it's Pastor Courtney here, otherwise known as PC. And this is my lovely wife, Erica. You'll hear from her shortly. But it's an honor and a privilege to be on today with who we consider, not just as our were pastors, but our mentors and our very good friend. and i like to say that God put them in our lives because you know that we needed them in our lives when you put them in our lives. So we're grateful to just play our part in helping to build God's church, Grace Church.
00:01:49
Speaker
And we're looking forward to how we can contribute to this new venture that God has for them, this podcast that is up from here. Well, there's nothing more to add to it um How did we met?
00:02:01
Speaker
boy where Where'd you grow up? Where'd you two grow up? You have an accent, you know? Yes. Most beautiful island. Most beautiful island. And I'm not saying that because it is. I'm saying that because it really is. um Kingston, Jamaica, to be specific, um that means that I'm in the um the city where everything comes together.
00:02:24
Speaker
So I grew up there all my life. And also, honey, he also grew up in Kingston, but we're in two separate areas. um I grew up, i I spent most of my latter days in my teenage years in Kingston, but earlier I was in um the rural aspect of Jamaica, which is <unk> called St. Thomas. If you know Jamaica very well, it would be St. Thomas. So been there for about five to ten years. And then we moved to Kingston.
00:02:57
Speaker
And shortly after when I moved to Kingston, I met my husband. What's the circumstances behind that? Yeah, so we met at the end of, towards the end of high school. ah In high schools, we went to two separate high schools in the same city.
00:03:11
Speaker
um And what was common among us is that we were part of a cadet force. So in high school, something similar to our ROTC program here in the U.S., And I happen to be one of the leaders for the cadet force in high school. And her younger sister happens to be one of my junior cadets. And I'll let her tell the story about how her sister introduced us.
00:03:36
Speaker
Okay, so back story a little bit.
Erica's Early Struggles
00:03:40
Speaker
um I didn't know this, this is Einstein, it's 2020, but I was then in a place of depression and I wasn't um socializing with anyone. i was more to myself um because of what had happened to me in my um toddler years, leading up to teenage years, which include molestation and um abuse. So I've learned to stay by myself. So so when I joined my family, my biological family later on, and I met my sister, I continued with that behavior.
00:04:12
Speaker
So for her, it doesn't didn't look normal, didn't feel normal. But she had an idea that I was coming hurting. I came into the family hurting. So as she continues to reach out to me and build a relationship with me, I continue to have a stone wall.
00:04:29
Speaker
So as those stone walls stayed up, unknowing to me, she was looking for solution. So she attended high school with him. She talked about him being a very, very, he was one of the leaders that was known by many other high schools because he stood out. We were part of a cadet, but also the high schools are in region.
00:04:53
Speaker
So we're talking about maybe how many high schools? Maybe about 15. Maybe about 15 high schools. So you're talking about 15 high schools who knows the name Courtney Robinson. So he's known to be very strict, but also very caring. And and anyone who's under his leadership usually do well because he trains them well.
00:05:17
Speaker
So she fought under his leadership. She saw him in action. She grew under his leadership.
Building Friendship and Love
00:05:23
Speaker
And she said, she said wow, um he's much older than I am, but I know someone who will be good for him.
00:05:31
Speaker
So she told him that she had a sister. um I was at home, so she come to me. She said, I think I know what your solution is. You need a boyfriend.
00:05:41
Speaker
That's what you need. You a boyfriend. The answer to every problem person. I've heard somebody say that. Absolutely. So I thought she was kidding until I was at home by myself. And as I was sitting in the living a room there, both of them entered the house. And she says, hi. She introduced me to me. She said, this is my sister.
00:06:00
Speaker
And he says, hi. And it was awkward. I'm like, i was like why are you in my house? And she's like, this is the guy that I tell you about. And then she left left the room.
00:06:11
Speaker
And he's like, hi. um He was trying to make a conversation out of me. And I was being very defensive. Like, I don't know you. are you in my house? Why are you in my house? Why are you here? So it started right there. oh I love that.
00:06:27
Speaker
Wow. and How were you feeling at the time? Oh, at the time, for me at that time, I don't think I was actually looking for a girlfriend at the time because I figured at that time that any girl that I set my eyes on would certainly accept me at that time. So for me, it was, well, I was feeling really good about myself at the time. You were the top cadet. Absolutely.
00:06:52
Speaker
Of course. Is that interesting that you're a young girl just says, come with me to my house. You're going meet my sister. and you're like, all right, come on. that's and Honestly, I, I, what she told me was actually that her sister was not feeling well.
00:07:06
Speaker
So true to be told, i am going with the intention that here it is, that is someone that needs encouragement, uplifted. And later on, I come to know, um you know, what my gifts were from a, from a, from a spiritual perspective, but that she saw me as,
00:07:21
Speaker
Hey, listen, you can come, you can cheer my sister up. yeah You can, you can encourage her and you can uplift her spirit. And so I was going with that intention, honestly, that's the intention I was going with. that's So once I saw her, i was like, well, yeah, well, well, she could be the one. So I actually told her, I said, you will be my, my girlfriend and we'll be together.
00:07:44
Speaker
And her answer was very interesting, actually. Her answer was that would be a day and a half, meaning that it would never happen. Oh, OK. Yeah, that was weird because I knew of him. I knew him. He's in charge. So there's at least, what, or maybe a thousand of us who in terms of caret that was on there. So i um I wouldn't stood out because, again, I'm. You were a cadet too? I was a cadet too. So I was a cadet at another school. It's 15 schools. i was in one of those schools. So what happens next? So I knew him. I knew of him and I knew him, but I wasn't under his direct um um mentorship. So I kind of saw him and in my heart, heart that was like, he's a little bit cocky and I don't care for, he was just a little bit. Well, because he was very extroverted and you're very introverted. Absolutely. So that did not. So when I finally saw him up close, personal, it it came back and I like, I don't, I don't need that.
00:08:42
Speaker
I really don't. So we started doing a lot of activities together. So for for me, it was just I. Alone? No. So we have a lot of. Just to be the cadet community. I'm just having fun. It was really, it was timing because at the time when we were introduced, it was leading to the summer. And during the summer, all the schools come together and do what we call summer camp.
00:09:05
Speaker
So summer camp was coming where I would definitely now come under his regiment because he's the leader. so oh yeah And it so happened that that particular summer, I did not attend that camp. um You know, I came from very humble beginning at the age of 17.
00:09:23
Speaker
pretty much was started working and and and living with my grandmother at the time. And it meant I had to work that summer. So I was going to miss that camp. But she heard a lot about me during that camp.
00:09:35
Speaker
And I got a lot of reports. And after that summer, we started doing a lot of things together as groups, who always groups. So whether it was going to sports events, going on hiking,
00:09:47
Speaker
and for for the next two years, it was just a lot of activities we did did together. Sisters, brothers, my brothers, her sister, her brother, and um and a lot of friends. For two years, it would just go places together. And then we started to grow closer to each other. There was no sparks? Were there sparks flying? No, still, because I have that. Wait, you're saying not both saying no sparks flying? or No. No, I was interested in her for sure, but I wasn't going to show it at that time. She wasn't showing it. Yeah, she wasn't showing it. But I knew a day and a half was going to come at some point.
00:10:17
Speaker
Yeah, it's going be two days. Because I think looking back now, was definitely the kind that was that would have been publicly um insulting. Like, if you come and I, step away from me. And he wouldn't like that. So I think he was guarded as to...
00:10:34
Speaker
what he said so he would we would speak only in in a social setting in which way he felt it was safe because individually I would get kind of really no you yes that would I was like so what was the tipping point with I think the tipping point was about two years in, we started now showing affection and caring for each other.
00:10:58
Speaker
um She had an episode where um she got ill. um And then I ended up going to the house, seeing her. but but But prior to that, actually, my mom actually got got ill. So we were getting closer to each other.
00:11:13
Speaker
My mom and got ill. She was in the hospital and and she as a friend heard and visited me at the hospital. She saw me caring for my mom and that broke her heart. She was like, wow, this is a very care. Well, I let her go from there. yeah Yeah. So two years in, one of those two years, he stopped talking to me.
00:11:32
Speaker
He's not saying that he just smile. He's like, I don't need to talk to you because you're you're you're just not. Yeah. and So you stop talking. So we we were in the same group, but we weren't talking to each other.
00:11:44
Speaker
So this a year has passed and um his mom used to take care for the cadets like the kids. So she would send big stuff so we know of his mom. So for every cadet to hear that she's not well, you would break it up because this is like the mom that would send big stuff to all the kids. She's like cadet mother. Yes, she's like cadet mother.
00:12:04
Speaker
So here it is that I heard she was not well. So we got our friends and we went to the hospital
PC's Move to the U.S.
00:12:11
Speaker
to visit. So it happens that I went by myself. in The whole group, we end up whatever happened caused me to go. So as I entered the hospital room,
00:12:22
Speaker
I noticed he was busy taking care of her. She had major surgery and the hospital wasn't one of the best care and they were short staff and everything. And he was literally giving her a bath, changing her clothes, everything. And I stood and was like, what am I seeing right now?
00:12:41
Speaker
And, you know, he was just speaking to her in the most loving way. And she was responding to him in the most an interaction I've never seen in my life.
00:12:52
Speaker
And it just it just broke me. I just broke. And I said, what am I witnessing here? A son and a mother and the son being the caregiver.
00:13:02
Speaker
And as he as he was finished caring for her and get her a dress and everything, and then he took her dirty linens and put them in a bag and said he would take them home and wash and wash them. And then I entered the room and I said, hi, she knew of me, um but never really know me because he was taking my name back home. He likes this girl. So she knew of me. So we we connected there and it left me really in a place where.
00:13:32
Speaker
For days, I could not get that vision out of my head. And then shortly after that, I had an episode where I just had a meltdown. I broke. So I myself was on a doctor care now from having what they call depression. So when I was in when I was at home recovering, I woke up to him being there and he was just sobbing.
00:13:55
Speaker
And i was like, why are you stopping? And he was he didn't know I was awake and then he wiped his tears away. He says, you know, because he was wanting the best for me. I guess, you know, he saw me at my worst. He wanted the best. And then that just definitely i was undone. God used all that. I was just undone. I was like, okay. hope you young guys out there are listening. This is what impressed the woman here. yeah I was undone. And at that time, I was like, i am I'm done.
00:14:24
Speaker
I'm going to try. you fell in love overnight? It was a game changer. I fell in love with him. And I think because my experience, I've always been every male that I've encountered, and I use the word every, which may sound very...
00:14:42
Speaker
dramatic, but it was, always come to take. ah i'm ah I'm always at their mercy, so he didn't look different first. But when I saw the interaction and realized that he was not here to take anything, he was actually here to care, to give more, I knew that um i need knew that it was time for me to let my walls down.
00:15:08
Speaker
So how did all this lead to marriage? Yeah, I think um it was a tale of just a convergence of a number of events that happened. um Erica and her family or siblings became
Challenging Upbringing in Jamaica
00:15:23
Speaker
homeless through eviction.
00:15:24
Speaker
um Their mom was not living with them. And ah her older brother happened to be the caregiver and he was definitely focused on where his younger sisters were gonna be. So he secured um somewhere for Hun's younger sister, name is Dina, ah to live with her brother. And Hun was kind of left on her own. She was a different father.
00:15:50
Speaker
And they had grown grown up separately, as Hans said before. And I mustered up the courage and I went to my brother with a story. and And I said, hey, will you come with me for me to go to grandma and to make a proposal for Erica to come and live with us?
00:16:07
Speaker
And he agreed, as a good younger brother would do. We went to my grandmother and i told her the story that she was evicted, didn't have anywhere to live. At that time, we lived in what is called a tenement yard. So different structures within the same premises and that my grandmother had. And my brother um agreed with me for us to be in one room together so that she could have a room in a different building by herself. So from there, we started working, we started planning, we're growing in love more and more with each other.
00:16:40
Speaker
And eventually I made the proposal for us to get married. In fact, we had a big elaborate plan to get married and her mom visited from the USA.
00:16:50
Speaker
And her mom told us that she didn't know when she was going to come back to the island, to Jamaica. And we looked at each other and like, we definitely need her mom to be at the wedding. And if she doesn't know when she's going to come back.
00:17:04
Speaker
So we then decided that almost shotgun, we're like, we're going to get married like now yeah before she leaves. Yeah. And that's exactly what we did. I remember I was working and in the shipping industry that I work now in the port then and we were 23, 24 years old.
00:17:23
Speaker
And I only took off a few days from work. um And we got married. It was a morning. My uncle, who is a pastor, he married us. And we had a great time. And I told her that don't worry, we'll have a big wedding ceremony one day to make up for all of this.
00:17:40
Speaker
We didn't have a honeymoon, actually. And because that time, we the very day we got married, we were putting the roof on in our house. Now, you got to imagine, this is a big deal. Growing up in the very poor neighborhoods that we came from, we worked together and and we bought a house. It was just a literally a quad or a one room that you could expand on. But it was ours.
00:18:02
Speaker
and And we were doing a construction on the house. And the day we got married was the day was the roof was being put on on that house. So we made the sacrifice. We're like, we're going to do this is what we're going to do.
00:18:14
Speaker
And honeymoons and travel and vacation, that stuff. God is going to provide one day and we will be able to travel the world and do what we wanted to do. But that's a sacrifice that we made.
00:18:25
Speaker
We only had families and very intimate friends was at this was at the wedding. And that was on January 5th, 1994. wow ah Give us a little insight as you were talking about Jamaica, because a lot of us don't know what it's like to grow up in Jamaica. And you guys were in the city, right? I mean, you were in. What was that like?
00:18:49
Speaker
we have two, we have two separate experiences based on our backgrounds. um For me, it was not necessarily the same as his. For my for my experience, was I was in the city a little bit, and then I got into the rural and I come back to the city. And it's because of of my, um how I became here. my mom, you know,
00:19:14
Speaker
you know had i'm I am technically the only one that has a different father. So my mom stepped out and of the relationship with my with my stepfather and I came about. And to give a quick synopsis is that she was with my stepfather. I have three older siblings before myself.
00:19:34
Speaker
And um when my stepfather found out about the infidelity, They made up, forgave, but the one condition is that I could not come to live with them. I would have to live with my biological father, who I was the first of his, or his kids at the time. So the condition and the wish she would be able to remain in the home and be able to care for all the siblings is that I do not return when she gave birth. So she did give birth, and then she leave me with my father, who then... arm
00:20:07
Speaker
was young, we're talking about 22 years old, 21. And um my my father was like, I'm not ready for kids. I didn't want kids. This was just not in the plan.
00:20:19
Speaker
So that's how I was exposed to neglect and becoming abused because I had no caregiver and no care given. So for me, that aspect of it was the first 10 years of my life.
00:20:32
Speaker
Then my father, my stepfather and my mom somehow made it up. um He forgave. The forgiveness took place in a way in which my stepfather came back to get me from where I was.
00:20:44
Speaker
And he drove my mom and they both came and literally kidnapped me because I was living then with my father's mother, who was very, very abusive, very religious, very abusive.
00:20:57
Speaker
She did not care for me at all. And my mom knew of this and my stepfather knew of it because my stepfather and knew my father very well. So they literally came. can't remember like it was yesterday. It was many years ago. Six a.m. in the morning. The sun just rise. I was in the yard. We call yard in Jamaica.
00:21:15
Speaker
you we We what you have in America in the back. We have it both in the back and the front. That same landscape view where you have that big view in the front back. So I was in the front playing.
00:21:27
Speaker
And my stepfather and my mom pulled up in a yellow Ford van with ah with with what they use now for construction. And they pulled up and I knew because my mom visited me a couple of times when I was there and she called me to the gate and she said, come here.
00:21:43
Speaker
And I come to her and as soon as I get to the gate, my stepfather reached over his hand and the Yankee pulled me and yanked me over. And I start screaming because and then they threw me in the in the Ford truck and then they drove away as fast as can. And that's when they moved to the rural area because they wanted to have me living somewhere where they they couldn't find me for a while. My father couldn't find me. So. Like you, Pastor Joe. I know. This reminds Yes, I have so had 10 years of living um in the rural part of the world where no one knew where I was. So this was Kingston kidnapping to the rural. And then I moved back to Kingston later. Did your father try to find you? No, no, he did not. ah He knew. i think he knew very well that my mom took me. but again right But again, he did not care for me and he did not care for me being kidnapped or not. I think it was a relief for him. ok Probably.
00:22:41
Speaker
The burden's gone. Yes. Yes. But eventually he came back in her life because like one of the things we wanted to do was when we were getting married. i found him. She found him and we wanted him to be there. We wanted them to be yeah part of that because Because for me, I've read and I've heard that the father gave away the daughter at the wedding. So I was willing to put up all the rejection and everything that he did just for. And did he do that? He did that. I asked him, can you walk me down the aisle? We have not spoken in so many years, but I found him and I said, I'm getting married. Can you walk? And he said, sure.
00:23:16
Speaker
And looking back now, it's something. something but But he walked me down the aisle and he didn't even marry me. That's the day of the wedding. And he left after that. And he left after that and disappeared again. Wait, like right after he walked you down the aisle? Yeah, after the ceremony, he left. okay We haven't seen. He wasn't at the, I don't think he was at even at the breakfast. No, no he didn't come to the breakfast after. He just walked me down the aisle, gave me, and then he was like a phantom. He came and he's gone again. Always absent. Right. but yes He's around now. God got reconciled and things. That's a good thing about finding Christ eventually.
00:23:52
Speaker
Yeah. so So that's a part of what grow up, my my background looks like. But Jamaican itself is where we are exposed. Very poor poverty is very much part of our lifestyle.
00:24:07
Speaker
When I say poverty poverty is as if we get one, if I get one meal for the day, Talking real poverty. we we we We were very, very helpful. My mom, at the time when I came to live with her, would leave in the morning, and she doesn't come back until night. And we never knew what was. We found out later that she used to do what we call day's work.
00:24:27
Speaker
What a day's work constitutes is she would go in people's house, would wash, clean, and different, so she'd get paid for that day. So she stays for morning, cook, clean, and everything, and she'd get paid cash then on her way home.
00:24:40
Speaker
She'll stop at the grocery store, buy different groceries, and know when she comes home, much she'll come home with grocery for us. So we're always looking for her to come back with something. Or are we made um we made we made friends, so we call we make friends, but we have a relationship with the shop, with someone who have local shops, and we will go to them, and they will give us things and put it IOU, and my mom, when she's coming home, she will stop and talk. and put it in. Now, where is my stepfather in all this? You'd ask, where is he? Because they were together.
00:25:12
Speaker
He was very much involved with politics. And in Jamaica, politics is um is very, very serious. It will almost always leads to death.
00:25:24
Speaker
Okay. Always lead to death. Who you vote for and who you do not vote for usually is a life life and death decision. So he was very heavily in politics and the party that he was involved with was, we did not allow him to live with us, live with us. He would have to be conspicuous because they were always out to kill him because they that was the opposition party at the time. Body corruption. Wow, lots of corruption. PC, was your ah did you grow up in sort of the same area?
00:25:56
Speaker
Different. So I grew up in in the heart of Kingston in the city. So my upbringing was first we lived with my grandmother. um So that's where my mom had us.
00:26:09
Speaker
So I have two brothers that follows me and then two sisters. And yeah, we lived through the political violence of the 70s and 80s. Very famous, unfortunately, and very tragic. um It was one of the bloodiest time in the history of Jamaica, the 1980 elections. I know what that was like firsthand. I clearly remember the day in 1980 election. I heard a lot of commotion. that time, I was 10 years old.
00:26:37
Speaker
I ran outside. I could barely see out in the street. And and I saw they they brought someone out and was killed him right there in front of everyone because he was of the opposition political party. And I remember saying, wow, God, is this the life that we're going to live? um And that was, you know, daily killings was just part of the neighborhood and part of the city and part of what we experienced.
00:27:00
Speaker
My mom um had good fortune. She was always a believer. And somehow she got an opportunity to move us to an area that was at the metropolitan area where they were starting to build new houses. She got a house rented there. So at the time when she told us that we were going to move to that area, that was like, you know, you're going abroad to the United States. That was like, we're really moving on up. um yeah yeah that mini upgrade it's ah yeah It was a big upgrade for us and a huge upgrade because I'm like, we're actually going to come out of this environment. Yeah, dangerous. And we're going to live somewhere where that doesn't really exist. So we were super excited at the age 10.
00:27:40
Speaker
Then I got into high school. I went to high school pretty early. I was at high school at the age of 11. And then my mom hit hard time. I didn't know my father growing up, by the way. So my father was not around. ah He left me, as the story was told to me.
00:27:57
Speaker
When I was born, he went to to live in the United States here and I never saw him. So growing up, especially became a teenager, all I wanted to do at one point was just to be able to recognize him. If I see him, I just didn't know who he was.
00:28:10
Speaker
And ah but so my mom my mom got married to my younger brother and sister's father and and we were all living together. So the father I knew growing up was my stepfather and he did the best he could, but he had his own challenges, right?
00:28:26
Speaker
And my mom fell on a hard time and the family had to break up um because at that time, I remember when she just could not afford the rent. She could not afford a lot of the basic things in life for the for the five kids that she had.
00:28:39
Speaker
and And then there was a plan that was put together that my brother that followed me would go live with his father. And the three siblings that followed him would live with her and my stepfather. That meant that where was I going to go?
00:28:54
Speaker
And it meant that I was going to go back to the era we came from. And live with who? Your grandmother? With my grandmother. So I like to say that's the most loneliest walk in my entire life.
00:29:06
Speaker
At the age of 17, just finished high school and my mom says, this is the plan. You're going to be fine. going to trust God. And at that moment I was like, God, you're not real yeah at 17. I'm like, if this, if I, we left this life and I'm, I'm the only one going back to this, to live in this area.
00:29:29
Speaker
And I said, from here on, I'm going to be taking care of myself the way I think is best. yeah And that's, People were making plans for you. yeah This is the plan, but yeah you don't get to make the plan. Like the worst plan.
00:29:42
Speaker
But so, you know. So you this is perfect. Now lead us from there. So a couple of years later, you meet and then what happens? How do you end up in the United States? Oh, great. There's ah multiple avenues to that, right?
Building a Life Together
00:29:56
Speaker
So we were pretty ambitious. We were determined we were going to make life somewhere one way of shape. Wait, how much was that house in Jamaica?
00:30:03
Speaker
It was that the the house that we purchased. The new roof. the back the back The backdrop of that is that they they had... um investors that were there's a family that had money and they were investing in the country and building new homes but they're called low-income homes so they're first-time owners and if you have very low income so these this is what we call they we said dump land like they build those land because what's near the sea get it ready and and only people who are actually low income owners were here
00:30:41
Speaker
So he can tell you how much. So for that, almost everyone would be able to afford that because it's low income. It's like the projects. Yes. Really? Right. It's really. Exactly. Exactly. How much? At that time, I think it was approximately $66,000 Jamaican dollars. Which what? $5,000 here? Yeah, or $500. Or less. Or maybe.
00:30:59
Speaker
five thousand here yeah and our five five thousand are less or less or maybe But the interesting thing is people listening right now saying, I'll take it. You would need to make a deposit. You would need to prove that you're working and then you have income. remember, we're both now at this time. We're at age 22. hmm.
00:31:19
Speaker
trying to build life on our own. and And I remember we drove over there, the area where they're building the houses, there was all land, nothing built. And I said, we said, I said, God, if you're real, you got to make a way for us. And we said, if you take us out of the humble beginning, ah hardship that we grew up in, we said, we would one day give back to you, God. One day we would. I remember sitting and we're dreaming together.
00:31:45
Speaker
And, but we didn't have any money for the down payment of the house. So at this time you're feeling a little better about God. Yeah, feel that because you grew up, you know what, you're right, you know what? You know what? Hey, when you need them. Exactly. It's convenient. You said it. You said it. They're in a foxhole. Yes. Absolutely. We all do it. Absolutely. But be careful. Be careful what promises you make to God, even when you're in Foxhole, because I can clearly remember both of us looking up in the sky and we're like, God, if you were real and you take us out of this poverty, this situation, we will one day honor you and give back to you. At that time, none of us were going to church. None of us were born again. don't even know what that means. We're not tied. We're not doing anything, but we're giving back. But it sounds good. Because we know the concept that we give back what you first give. Because we grew up basically in a religious setting, separate but same thing. So we kind of know that there is a God he provides, but we know who to call on when we want to. We know where to So we took you back there, but how you get to the U.S.? So the U.S. was mainly on me. So fast forward, we get married. We're living in our one-bedroom, studio apartment. God provided for us. Now, if you remember my childhood again, of that, I was denied education. I was not going to school at all.
00:33:08
Speaker
My first time in school was when my mom took me, when my mom kidnapped me, my mom and stepfather. So we're talking about age 10, 11. You're talking about age 10, 11 in Grace Kids.
00:33:19
Speaker
Imagine me walking into Grace Kids here. Yeah, like a preschool. You're a preschooler at 10. Right. You imagine what the kids are looking at. They're looking at giant. Like, what what's this? Age 11. So they call me the nickname Big Bird. I walked into there first time. I remember wearing yellow was a favorite color mine. And they call me Big Bird because I shouldn't be here. You know, this is being recorded right now. um I went walking to school and i was very challenging, very difficult, very daunting, very discouraging. um Trying to learn your name, ABC at 11. It was so challenging and difficult. And my mom realized that. So I was going to school but based on my um academic readiness and also learning.
00:34:07
Speaker
doing overtime, I was doing extra classes, extra classes, I was seeing private tutors, yeah everything. So i was doing this for maybe 10 years. So after doing that for a long time,
00:34:19
Speaker
It gets so challenging. And one of the things I heard, my grandmother, my my paternal grandmother um said, you'll never mount to be anything. And that's why she never sent me to school, because she's like, why waste? Because, again, education is something you actually have to invest in and pay in the island. So she's like, you're not worth it because I'm from an adulterous relationship. So she's already marked me um not worth it. Worthless. That's great. That's a great word, Pastor. So,
Reconnecting with PC's Father
00:34:50
Speaker
here I am.
00:34:51
Speaker
God has blessed me, and i have got somewhat a little bit better, because here is a man in my life that is kind and didn't want anything.
00:35:02
Speaker
And I said, and I asked, I said, um one of the things that I would love to do is to have an education, but it's so difficult to get that in Jamaica. It's so difficult, because...
00:35:13
Speaker
the the the the situation Jamaica is very competitive. And when you're brilliant, you're brilliant. And when you're not, you're not. And I i said, I talked with him and I said, um please, um i can't I can't do it in Jamaica. It's too hard.
00:35:29
Speaker
But I know if I go to America where it is so much simpler and so much more opportunity opportunity, not just opportunity, they de cater to you. i said, um would you allow me to go there and have an education? And this was very difficult. We just got married and we talked about it early stage of marriage. And he's like, OK, all right. And five years into the marriage, we we were talking about it continually five years into the marriage, he says.
00:35:58
Speaker
go do your thing because you realize that I need it. He says, go. And I applied to colleges. I worked. It was a preparation to get here. So I did the preparation, did all the classes, get get up to date. And then i applied to colleges here and I got accepted.
00:36:14
Speaker
And he says, for it. That's amazing. I spent my whole life trying to avoid school. Yeah. For me, when someone tells you that. Let's ticket out. Yeah, but when someone tells you're not worth investing in and you'll never amount to anything. You're going to prove them wrong. It's not even prove wrong. You go. Right. And all my siblings were very, very good in academic. So I stood out. I stood out like a sore thumb.
00:36:40
Speaker
Like, what's wrong with you? So he said, yes, Sam, do it. But man. Yeah. but my So she came here without you. Yeah. don' me So I would only visit at the time. So we came up with this plan that we thought was brilliant. It turned out this was a flesh plan. and You guys got a lot of plans. Yeah. So we decided that now i would I would go to school. I would work, sorry, there and support her sending her to school here. So you just imagine that.
00:37:10
Speaker
Think about that for a minute. I was going to work in Jamaica and then pay in U.S. dollars. Oh, my. Oh, my God. Tuition here for her going to school. but And where was here? Where were you coming here? Brooklyn. I came here. i came and I live with my aunt. um come In New Jersey? Yes. Brooklyn. Brooklyn, New York.
00:37:29
Speaker
I made connection. A lot of preparation came into play. My mom was here, but she didn't have a place of her own. She was living as an in-aid work. Okay. Looking after all that. So, PC, are you working at the port now? Yes. was working at the port at the time. was definitely working port. lot of overtime opportunities. Okay.
00:37:46
Speaker
Thank God. We worked. ah Yeah, we we we believe in hard work. So hours work, days work, weeks work, months work. well And she's here. So what else are you doing? I mean, really.
00:37:58
Speaker
So that was one thing we both had when we got together that we were going to work our way through this. um Coming from the environment that I came from, i saw a lot of people um that I grew up with, they tried to make it the illegal way or through criminal activities. And a lot of them either end up dead or in prison.
00:38:19
Speaker
And something in me decided that I was going to make it. And that's not the route I was going to take. Yeah. So it was a very uncommon route to starting in from nothing there to say, i am going to work and I am going to make a way. Hard work is going to get me there. Yes.
00:38:35
Speaker
So we decided on this plan and that I would visit her every three, four, six months, whatever it is. It was ah turned out to be the more, the most, the most difficult time of our life for relationship because I fell into, yeah, I fell into, into, um,
00:38:52
Speaker
adulterous relationship because I was in Jamaica, she was here and that pulling apart and that that pain that that ensued from that difficult time.
00:39:04
Speaker
Here it is that there's we decided to do something that we thought was good. It was going to benefit both of us and her in particular, but then I stepped out. And that was ah the most difficult time at that time for our relationship. But as God had it, the four years passed by. and And in that four years, so many things happened.
00:39:24
Speaker
I semi-reconciled with my father. He came out of nowhere. came out Remember, i told you, I grew up not knowing him. Yeah. Not knowing him at all. and what do you do What happened? What happened I am here. You were here. I'm here. And um so I'm here and now. were separated.
00:39:41
Speaker
So being here, I'm in touch. I don't have any family beside. His mom, who lives in Pennsylvania, and um my my my aunt and my mom. So in doing so, as I'm here, um I'm finding out his family. I'm getting in touch. I'm um i'm going around. finni So I understand that his father was right here in New York.
00:40:02
Speaker
So we met. So he met me. We met and I said, I'm your son's wife. And he fell in love with me at first sight, which is good. He was happy that his son's wife was even looking to see him. So I told him, I said, I met your father. And he said, really?
00:40:19
Speaker
Interesting. You know what he looks like before I do. that's kind of funny. So we arranged for when he came to visit that I would, we both would go and visit his father.
00:40:32
Speaker
And that's, it's not as simple as arranged ago. He wasn't ready resistance. But the greatest thing is that his mom, I get you that she never spoke ill about him. Never one time. And she always speak of him as,
00:40:50
Speaker
um about a father who makes a bad decision, but she she credited to her mother, was a strong woman, and she actually you know drove him out of her life. Like, you don't care for my daughter. You can't do this. You leave.
00:41:06
Speaker
So is or his grandmother was a very strong um um member of the family who makes decisions on behalf of the family. So there's something to say about that. But we met, and I've been here connected with him.
00:41:20
Speaker
and in connected with him. And I think I did it for more selfish reasons because I needed, now our relationship is being shaky. I need father, his father who is a legal citizen of the United States and is established. I need him to get his son here because if he gets his son here, then we am already here, then we can meet back together. You can hopefully reconcile. So it's it it it has its underlying. east But even though your mother's in Pennsylvania,
00:41:49
Speaker
Yes, my mom was in Pennsylvania at the But she not here long enough. Okay. And when it comes to immigration, get family member who is married, you have to be a citizen of the United States. You have to establish. If it's unmarried, it's easier.
00:42:07
Speaker
yeah But when you're married, the the the state is not looking to bring married people together. Yeah, to get more complicated. Right, yeah right. So I met my father and that's part of my story that I visited and Han and I went to Redding, Pennsylvania where my mom lived and we put this plan together that I'm going to meet my father who was living in Mount Vernon in New York for the very first time. At that time I was the, I think I was 28 years old and I said to my mom, i said, mom,
00:42:35
Speaker
Am I really doing this? And she said, yes. I said, when I see my father, how would I know it's him? And she said, don't worry. God will let you know. Look in the mirror. And and and we I remember we we got on a Bieber tour bus from Redding, Pennsylvania.
00:42:53
Speaker
And that bus went to New York um Penn Station. I got off the bus and And as I stepped off the bus, I saw myself 20 years older. Oh, my gosh. Wow. And I'm like, God, you have a sense wow of humor.
00:43:10
Speaker
Wow. God is something. i said that So that's why I met my father, and and he fell in love with with her, as she said before. But it was not my father, and I just could not reconcile. um He...
00:43:23
Speaker
i I had this idea, this expectation that after all these years, yeah when I met him, he was going to be like, hey, listen, son, I apologize. Forgive me. made mistake. Let me make it up for everything. Zero. None of that did not exist at all. That did not exist at all. And that just drove me even further away from him.
00:43:41
Speaker
And while all of this is happening, then, you know, I eventually, through him, came to the U.S. permanently. its And we started to Yes. To give him some credit. he was, he said that he was always looking for him.
00:43:57
Speaker
He's his last son. He's his last child. um So he was always looking for him. So that's why he knew that I was in the U S because he's, he's, we're New York, you in Jamaica,
00:44:09
Speaker
Close community. There's a close community. Somebody knows somebody. know So he found out where I am. So when he connected with me, he knew that by connecting with me, you'd be able to connect with him. He knew that his son was. All right. God was working. Yes. so So doing the petition for his son was the least he can do after all these years. Wow. Right.
00:44:29
Speaker
And considering that you're angry and you're hard at him, the fact that he just did it anyway, right? Yes. Yes. Yes, he did it. But even though he did it, I was something inside of me was still looking for that validation from a father to say. And what I saw actually was that he would parade me to his friends and relatives to say, this is my son. He's married. He's ambitious. He's working. He's now in the U.S. He's made something himself. He never wanted to have any conversation about what happened in the past. Zero. He just never wanted to have any of those conversations. That sounds familiar to me. And it was very difficult for me, very difficult. But in the meanwhile, we were trying to move ahead and have life and we reconciled as best as we could. Yeah, I was gonna say, what about you two reconciling? Yeah, we started the journey of reconciliation. It was very long and tough, actually. And I would say when our daughter was born, even before she was born and she was pregnant,
00:45:29
Speaker
I said, i want to be able to take my family to church, my kids, not just send them to church.
Spiritual Journey and Renewed Vows
00:45:37
Speaker
Now, because I grew up in a society where a lot of fathers send their kids to church. It's different from taking them to church with It's still going on, unfortunately. But I didn't know how to do that. And in the meanwhile, I was here and I started teaching.
00:45:53
Speaker
crashing and burning go out with friends late at night don't come back to the next morning and then I had an incident I clearly recall where a friend of mine passed away tragically on the job and all of the guys the boys we all went out we had a good time and one thing led to another and 4 a.m. in the morning none of us knew how to get our way home the guys and And I remember one of her, one of my friend, he called his fiance at the time and she came, loaded us all up and took us all home.
00:46:23
Speaker
Well, imagine me coming in at 5 a.m. in the morning and she opened the door and saw this young lady dropping me off with others from the in the vehicle and everything. And that's when she she literally said, either you get your life together and go to church or else.
00:46:41
Speaker
And I didn't want to hear what came after all else. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I just decided that that's it. At that time, our daughter Rhea was born. She was just a year old, just about a year old. And we had moved from Union, New Jersey. So we left Brooklyn.
00:46:56
Speaker
We transitioned to living in Union, which was closer to the port where I was working. And then from there, we bought a house here in East Brunswick. Turned out that Hun was looking for church. Turned out that her grandmother just lives seven minutes away from us. And she happened to be going to this church called Faith Exchange of North Brunswick.
00:47:16
Speaker
And the church had a bring a friend to church that fall. That was in the fall of 2006. And her grandmother said to her, um i don't have any friend. I'm going to bring you with me to church. That's how she got introduced to Faith Exchange of North Brunswick at the time.
00:47:31
Speaker
And then every Sunday she would come home and I would hear about this pastor and he worked on Wall Street and his wife is is loud and she's flamboyant and amazing and great. and And I would hear that for a few months. So at the point when she gave me the ultimatum, the RLs, I felt like I knew the church and knew the pastors and everything. So I decided. you know jesus somewhat i yeah She lived right down the street from us. Grandma Iris was my neighbor two doors down. yes Isn't God a comedian? I used to bring her to church.
00:48:10
Speaker
Yeah, but to go back a little bit more, you can understand the ultimatum because we you know we come back together. We still... And yeah you're trusting him now. Yeah, we're trusting him, there's still you know there's still some going on things. Because, like he aki said, he's working, he's coming, he's hanging out with friends, all of that. So there's still and unsettling water. when I knew that.
00:48:36
Speaker
without a doubt, that Jesus was the answer because i knew from all what I've gone through that Jesus said, if I don't have him, I'm going to just fall apart.
00:48:48
Speaker
So I knew that. And he knew that because we had um his... uncle speaking in our lives too and talking to us about, you know, being. So you're hearing enough to know. We're hearing enough to know. And we were convicted and convinced. So when he came in at that time, i knew that had I not really thought, I think it was one of the first times I really said in you a way that we we just cannot continue.
00:49:14
Speaker
And I point to our little baby and i was like, we we can't keep doing this. this I cannot. It's not going to end well. I cannot. can I cannot. It's it's it's the RLs. I don't know what the RLs was, but I knew that if you don't come with me tomorrow morning, I don't know what ah what's going happen after that. Before that, though, I remember...
00:49:35
Speaker
him with sunglasses on when you got baptized. He was there that day. came to he came He was very quiet. He was very cool, collected. was our backyard. it was It was in our house before we had our own baptismal.
00:49:49
Speaker
And I remember him in the sunglasses and I remember the whole, like, your baptism. And was like, who's this guy? He's so calm. He's over there kind of like in the back. That's my great word. what i You know, when I look back on that now, it's just kind of funny. It is funny. I remember it like it was yesterday. You got baptized, but you didn't say much. I said hi to you, and I think you were friendly. You were talking to people, but you were kind of quiet. You were on the periphery, for sure.
00:50:16
Speaker
You had the sunglasses, and you probably were out all last night. Absolutely. Absolutely. when you think about it. But he came to your baptism. yeah um Because he was always supportive. He never he never yeah withheld that from me. He was always supportive. Yeah, you were just in your own limbo. And it's something he does very well. that that's I think that's a gift for him. He called himself the encourager. um So he was always supportive. But supportive is relative when the the support that you need is for you to really come on board. i mean, because you really were...
00:50:49
Speaker
When you got baptized, you cried everything. Because I had my own journey. Because I think that time that we got separated, that that four years, that we were separated.
00:51:01
Speaker
And I experienced it without him because without anyone, there's really more, even though i had family, I was alone. Yeah. ah You know, it, it, It broke me when when we started to drift apart when that happened. It broke me again.
00:51:17
Speaker
So for that, learned and I again, I started when my mom was in church. so I was going to church with her in Brooklyn. So I knew again that Jesus, that having some concept and a relationship with him would definitely. helpful So I think with that, um it helped me, held me up. It held me up for giving compassion and being more, um more humble because I never wanted to go back to be that person was just angry and angry because I was that person.
00:51:48
Speaker
very angry, but you would know because it was so passive. So as everybody knows, the whole church knows, and I use it a lot of times in my messages, you gave him an ultimatum and he listened.
00:52:01
Speaker
And he listened. Yeah. I don't know why he listened. The power of a good ultimatum. needed an ultimatum. Honestly, when I look back in my life, I needed somebody to love me enough to give me an ultimatum but because if left to my own accord, i would have done things my way, which was obviously not working, which not the right way. I wanted, I had a desire ah to do the right thing. I just didn't know how. I had the seed planted in me because I grew up in church with my mom.
00:52:31
Speaker
ah So I have an idea and and I think having a child, definitely I didn't want to end up like my father. So I said to myself, I said, God, I want one day to take my children to church, not just send them.
00:52:44
Speaker
But that was just speaking and it was on my own conviction, but I wasn't acting on that. So when she gave me that ultimatum, I was like, God, this is it. But I tried to bargain with God at that time, right? I said, God, I'm going to walk into that church called Faith Externity of North Bronson, that little church.
00:53:00
Speaker
I'm going to walk there. And I said, if anyone looked at me funny or the wrong way, not only am I out of there, I am never stepping foot back in a church. Because I also grew up in a religious background. And for everybody listening, Faith Exchange is Grace Church. you yeah is the Grace Church now. And I remember the day you came.
00:53:21
Speaker
do Do you remember anything about it? or Yeah, what I remember the day I came, the first day I came, i remember clearly standing in the back on the left-hand side. i was in the back sitting. And worship started and I saw someone up front jumping with their hands in the air and he's jumping around and something in me left and that the spirit says you're home. And I'm like, are you telling me that I could just be myself?
00:53:45
Speaker
Right. I don't have to be religious and act to try to act a certain way and just a certain way. And when I saw, I turned out to be Pastor Joe, I saw, said, here is somebody as crazy as am. So I said, I can jump as high as I used to jump in the club and I can ah scream as loud as I want to be And, um, and God says, you're home. And I said, okay, God, I'm going to be all in whatever you want me to do. Sweep the floor, uh, clean the bathrooms, anything at all, uh, except becoming a pastor. god on that was draw a line that's a real struggle i draw the line on that one that won't that that's a different story i drew that line for two years i could definitely so you guys start coming yep yes and you got right involved you were um yeah and how we reconcile coming back to my you know me hurting from that time we're together is that you you guys had marry us again decided to recommitted
00:54:42
Speaker
And we asked you guys, can you do us again? And little Rhea was, remember, three or four. And you guys came and said, sure. And we got married again. Yeah, we did it right there in the church. right there in the church. Exactly. Was it during the week? I think it was a weekday early, maybe about 11 a.m. in the morning. We said, can you just do? Because we knew you guys. And he was like, sure. And we did it again.
00:55:04
Speaker
and that, I just let go of everything from that day. Like, It's the past. We recommitted. It's gone. We start new and So honestly, my foray into ministry started with, I showed up to church one day and Steve Vaughan, I recall at the time was ah one of the lead
Involvement in Church Ministry
00:55:26
Speaker
ushers.
00:55:26
Speaker
And he tapped me and they said, ah are you supposed to be a usher today? i said, no. Me? Supposed to be an usher? i said, what happened? He said, you're on the list. My amazing, beautiful wife signed me up. Thanks, Erica. Here's to you. You're welcome. Cheers. Signed me up. And I'm like, okay. And then I said, one condition. We got to bring that policy back. Yeah. I said, one condition, though. I said, the time, Sunday was the busiest day on the job for me.
00:55:54
Speaker
And I'm like, I can only sit in the back because I'm on calls. If my phone goes off, I got to answer my phone. I got to do what I got to do. So I like to tell the story that I only would sit in the back of the church for the first year or so, but it never stopped me from serving. And I sometimes say this to a lot of young people. I said, you just need to have that desire. And even though things are not lined up right now, God will make Because I watched and saw where as I started to serve God, he made Sunday that was the busiest day, became the least busiest and the most affordable day. And your phone probably never rang. Never rang. And today hopefully my phone never rang. So all my coworkers are here at church, but don't text or call me on a Sunday unless it's an emergency. But I watched God as I served him and as I became all in for him. And I remember one Sunday Pastor Joe did a message on Are you all the way in?
00:56:43
Speaker
And I remember and I'm like, I'm going to be all the way in. I said, i don't know what it means. I don't know what this thing is, but I'm going to be all the way in. and We just started serving. And the one thing we said is we're going to serve.
00:56:55
Speaker
but we never want it to be a burden. It needs to be a blessing. And I remember calling my uncle, who is an apostle who's been a minister now for 40 something years. And I said to him, I said, what I saw from a distance a lot of time is is serving God being a burden. And I said, we don't want that. It needs to be a blessing. And he says, listen, if you have a relationship with God and you're built on relationship, it will be a blessing. Absolutely.
00:57:20
Speaker
So we just started serving in every area as Usher Greeter. We started serving as a, in the helps ministry. We served a Sunday school, teaching Sunday school, youth group. We did prayer and ministry for a while. Erica sang on the worship team. Yes. worship worship I was in the nursery.
00:57:38
Speaker
i was a nursery caregiver. Yeah. We did whatever it was. We were just surprised that anybody would accept us to do anything in the church. were growing church. I mean, yes all hands on deck. So whatever you want to do. We all wanted to lead worship. Everybody. I never got a chance to lead worship. I know. use but I think one of the prayer meetings, you did get a little shot at it. But you know what? I did one. It was a Christmas production, actually. I was in the choir.
00:58:06
Speaker
I remember that. But I don't think they recorded it. You were amazing. I think that one was... And then I think you guys, didn't you sort of lead the prayer ministry early on? Yes, we did the prayer ministry, but during that time we were praying for God to send someone who was an intention to do that. And thank So then a big turning point was when I asked you to start the small groups, right? Yes. Oh boy. That was something else. Yes. That was... Pastor, we were... If you remember, we were very defiant. Yes. So we were introduced to small group being in your couple's group. And then we were going to the Nyes. This is one of the other couples that were leading the church at the time. They were there for a while. were going to their couple's group.
00:58:48
Speaker
And at that time, it was difficult because I couldn't barely make it from work. I mean, work was so hectic and the schedule and the time and everything. And then you came and you said, i need you to lead your own group. And then on top of that, you said, i I need you to lead all the groups.
00:59:03
Speaker
And I almost said that was going to be a day and a half, like I said, when I met her, because I'm like, that's not happening. But you said, trust God. And that's over 15 years ago.
00:59:14
Speaker
It's over 15 years ago. And it started. Yeah, that's what all it means. yeah And that grew. And then do you remember how long you did that? What was the next transition? Was it? To leadership? or Yeah, the next transition to leadership became deacons. and And I remember the first time you you asked me to give a message. I wouldn't say preach, but somehow give a message at the time.
00:59:39
Speaker
And that particular Sunday, you guys were going to be away. And and at that on that Sunday, ah i was asked to do a communion, the offering word, and to give this message. And I remember giving the message on if you draw close to God, drug God would draw closer to you.
00:59:55
Speaker
I was completely out of my wits, out of, I was out in left field. I don't know what I was doing, but I'm like, God, I'm not sure why he asked me Do remember what year this is? Can you guys remember? Was it in the smaller building?
01:00:09
Speaker
or the Yes, it was it smaller small the smaller So it's at least 15 years ago then yes or more. small yeah okay Yes. That was the very first time. and And I remember when we were getting ready to change the name of the church, right? We met as leaders, as a group.
01:00:23
Speaker
And we're having discussion about what to name the church. And we were just so happy that we were just a part of of everything that was going on. And it was a privilege and an honor and And through that, God was reconciling us in terms of our marriage. right And I started to see the meaning of grace.
01:00:40
Speaker
And I started to realize after everything I did wrong in the first five years of our marriage, and I'm like, God, I don't deserve to be married today, but you show me grace through my amazing wife, what the meaning of grace is.
01:00:53
Speaker
And I held on to grace. I held on to grace. I like to say that we're the favorites and I believe that everyone can claim to be God's favorite, but I know what that is like because when it comes to marriage, um it's only because the grace of God why we are where we are today and still working out um our marriage and our relationship. And eventually we led couples group. And that's where our passion became. Over time, God revealed to us where our passion really is and we're anointing or calling it and it is for couples and we made a packet we said because I messed up we're gonna pour into couples and marriage for the rest of our lives as you know if we hadn't had this podcast I wouldn't even remember that part of your story it's just amazing how when you talk and you know you hear and I'm just like wow I forgot you know because it was before Christ but it's still something and so now you're leading this amazing gifts group and what does that stand for
01:01:51
Speaker
Grace is from the start. Grace is from the start. as we were doing couples groups, we recognized the Holy Spirit was impressing upon us that a lot of the challenges that we saw in marriages, had we and other couples get exposed to certain methodologies and teachings about God's blueprint for marriage from earlier, it would have prevented lot of the issues that we see, even the issues we have in our marriage. So then October 17, in 2017, God birthed in us gifts, this idea that God's grace is from
Starting a Ministry for Couples
01:02:27
Speaker
the start. And if you can establish your relationship on that, then you could start to build a flourishing marriage, not a perfect marriage.
01:02:34
Speaker
The difference between a perfect marriage and a flourishing marriage is is a flourishing marriage is built on one where God is at the center, where you see God as your number one with your number two. And you understand that he gave grace from the beginning. And that's what we need to give to each other.
01:02:50
Speaker
If we look in the Bible, right, we see that the first marriage, God gave the most audacious gifts to the first couple. Look at the wedding gift he gave them. He says, be fruitful and multiply. And then he says, I give you all of this and have dominion over it. Imagine your wedding gift is the whole world to take care of and have dominion over.
01:03:08
Speaker
That is grace. They didn't work for it. And therefore we started to have this passion for God gave us grace in our relationship. And we want to have all the marriages in the church centered on that grace. And you want to impart that truth. Yeah.
01:03:23
Speaker
And, you know, number one and number two, PC, is that we're number one? Is that we're number one? They're number two? is number one. God is number one. And she's my number two. Yes. We seek the one with our two. Shoot, I was trying to get some. We seek the one with our two. Thank you for clarification. Now, before we close this out, can we go to a painful place?
01:03:52
Speaker
Absolutely. Because,
01:03:58
Speaker
you know, you guys went through something here as leaders in our church. And, um, It's very difficult for me to talk about it because it's just painful, but somebody's listening that's going through something very painful and they need to see how you guys came out on the other side and how they can come out on the other side of pain and, um,
01:04:26
Speaker
you lost a child and I'll just let you guys tell that story just because it's part of your story. you know we we've been This is our third sort of podcast and every time we so I said, Holy Spirit's just like, you gotta go deep into something because there's somebody listening that needs um And I mean, i it helps me.
01:04:48
Speaker
um And I know it's helped you. So you guys could just take that and go with it.
Adopting CJ and Tragedy
01:04:52
Speaker
Yeah, um ah certainly you asked if we could go there and you could certainly go there because God has healed and continued to heal us. And I can tell you even recently, um we both went individually um to different healing sessions because the healing, I believe, is never exhaustive. You know, I think you that's the true continue to seek God for the healing. So I can never sit here before you and say, hey, you know what? We're so healed to the point where we will never have that moment.
01:05:24
Speaker
ah Not at all. not Not for a moment. But I think the process of healing continues. But I really believe that we're we want to be sitting in front of you and and be living the abundant life the way we are. If we didn't get to a certain stage of healing, it just would not happen at all. and And that's God's plan for us is not that we were we still where we were, but that we he's leading us to somewhere different. So it was a difficult time. We we adopted a child. His name is CJ from Jamaica. Remember I said earlier about how we said, God, if you could take us out of these situations, we would give back. So one of the ways we decided to give back is that we were going to adopt a child in addition to having our own biological child. And it was a long process.
01:06:13
Speaker
um But the time that it took didn't matter to us. The challenges didn't matter to us because this is something we wanted to do. So we both agreed. In fact, I remember when I went to hon and I said, hon, I felt like the Holy Spirit has been prompting me that we should do this. And she also said, yes, she's feeling the same. So we we had this agreement that this is what we wanted to do.
01:06:36
Speaker
And we adopted him. We brought him here from Jamaica to the United States. And he brought so much joy to us. Joy beyond a comprehension.
01:06:48
Speaker
and And he was going to be CJ Courtney Jr. And that's what he was. And we named him. And um his circumstances were a little different because he was in an orphanage where he was found abandoned at birth.
01:07:03
Speaker
um And he was rescued by by the cops and was in this orphanage. And we went and we felt the Holy Spirit is the one that prompted us in terms of who to pick from this orphanage. And we picked him. So we saw him as the promised child. He was going to be everything to us.
01:07:20
Speaker
And we were here with him and he fell sick. How old but was he? He was at the time, he was three and a half, four years old. um He acted like he was about 30. He was just so mad.
01:07:36
Speaker
mature for his age. He was. The very first time we brought him to the church, I remember he puts his hand up and was ready to praise um But he he was a promised child for sure. And I'll let Hunter little bit about exactly what happened on the day when when he fell sick.
01:07:53
Speaker
Oh, prior to that, um come back to God promise, because it's more than that. So, you know, come back to what Han says about we say, you know, God, if you help us out. I being a product of rejection and and being in a place where somewhat like an orphanage, I understand what it is to be somewhere as a child with no mom or dad.
01:08:17
Speaker
So that was very dear to us that we do follow through with our promise for a child. So as we start having our own, Rhea was born. So I was like, okay, I'm going to have all, we're going to have all our kids and then we're going to adopt.
01:08:35
Speaker
And God said, no, no, no, no. I felt the Spirit said, no, no, no. It's not it's it's not a is's not a region it's not ah a project. It's going to be your son.
01:08:45
Speaker
So I said, wow, wow, wow. So all right, so if it's going to be my son, my plan, again, we are planners. We're going to have our kids two years apart because they can grow up together. So I said, that means that I need we need to get the adoption going so that he falls into the line of two years. of that And if we and we can continue having kids.
01:09:06
Speaker
So absolutely. So we get going as Rhea was a year and half. We get going so that he can come into place. So God added such a way that the day that we put in application saying I want a kid is a day that he was born. He wasn't in orphanage yet, but is the day he was born. This is we found out later on that that was the time he was born. So he became our choice of kid because he's the last one to join.
01:09:32
Speaker
So he became based on what we requirement is we want it. closer to real age so for me since he's not a project he's going to he's my child he's not an adopter he's going to be your child and and and god the holy spirit spoke to me in that way that so the interruption of having more kids took place because i need i need him to be a part of our family so that i can continue having more kids if we trust so So he came into our family and miraculously the the application went through much faster, ah much quicker. remember that. As soon as i as I went to Jamaica and I went to the orphanage and and saw him, our eyes locked.
01:10:15
Speaker
we it was so It was such a miraculous journey. It's hard to put in words. But there he came and he now he's home. So now he's out from Jamaica and he's home.
01:10:27
Speaker
And it was like, wow. God is good, you know, when we're really um um pressing to him. So here we are, Rhea, your brother, age difference is, you know, close enough. And it's like, okay let's see where we go. We're going to plan to have more kids. Are we, you know, what we're doing.
01:10:46
Speaker
And six months, it was really six months he spent with us. Only six months. So six months into him with us. And he was at home one day.
01:10:58
Speaker
And um he was watching his favorite um show like he usually does. And he was playing, jumping around excessively. And then he fell on the ground. And I said, OK, get up, CJ. um Stop playing. And he was down a little bit longer. So I was preparing meal at the time. So i' gonna and I said, wait, something is not right. So I picked him up. So he got up and he was a little bit lethargic. He was like um just swaying a little bit.
01:11:24
Speaker
So I said, no, something is not right. So I kind of called his name a couple of times and he he responded and then he just kind of went back a little bit in another consciousness. So I called 911. It's like 911, what should I do? So they asked, is he, you know, asked for different signs and then tell me what to do. And I ah did perform all that they said to perform. And end they then he came, then 911 came and they said, okay, you know, we're not sure what's going on, but we'll take him to the hospital and take it from there. So as we our way going to the hospital, I called him. He was at work and said, you know, meet me in that hospital. We're on our way, not sure what's going on with him. He was, he was, of course, puking. So I had to make sure that his vomit is not choking on his vomit.
01:12:07
Speaker
So we get to the hospital. What's going on? They said, we have seen this before. What they thought may have happened, what they said they thought is just that there is some swelling on the brain, sometimes ah like a buildup of fluid. So it's ah ah it's a surgery, but not life-threatening, nothing to worry about, just a little incision to ease the pressure. Usually within that, they've seen this in kids, it's very common. There might just be a bald spot. The hair would grow back. the the The medical team assured me that this is something that they have seen. Don't worry about it. It's so okay.
01:12:47
Speaker
um We're waiting on on the surgeon to come out and he never came out of surgery. And what happened during that time is, you know, is the is we being involved now with the um Child Protective Services.
01:13:04
Speaker
And so just so I lost a son and a daughter. in the same day child protective services says you know what they they called us um from the operating operating room and said they're not sure what's going on with your son if if um if any abuse might be involved so we have to protect um the little one so they took our daughter so in one moment I lost two kids.
01:13:35
Speaker
Lost one to the grave and one to the state.
Grief and Church Support
01:13:40
Speaker
And I was as numb and I was as I was as numb as numb could be. i I thought it was a bad joke.
01:13:51
Speaker
I thought it was something out of this world. i It's The only thing that was real to me, Pastor, is the support, that the the support the physical support that I had experienced at the time with the church members that showed up out of nowhere.
01:14:08
Speaker
That was the only thing that that had experienced. That kept me sane was to just look at all the faces of the church members that was in the room with me and said, it's going to be OK.
01:14:22
Speaker
But i it was something I cannot explain. And you can imagine for me as a father, um i felt like I didn't have any power or authority or anything.
01:14:36
Speaker
I often questioned myself. I said, what else could I have done? i remember when the the doctors came out and shook their head a little and and they told us the outcome that they lost him in surgery.
01:14:52
Speaker
And I said, it's not possible. And i I fell on the ground in the hospital. By that time, I think you guys might have been there. yeah We were all there. And I prostrated on the ground in that hospital, and I cried my eyes out. And then I went into the room where he was, because at that time, I would i swear that God would still raise him from the dead.
01:15:13
Speaker
I laid over him. I remember prayer leaders were also there. And I'm like, God, we were there raise him from the dead and take me instead. I said, i that I can live with.
01:15:24
Speaker
Raise him. and i and And I could tell you every ounce of being in my body as a father says, this can happen. I know God is possible. Was never to be. And then his son said also in the middle of all of that going on, our daughter was brought to the hospital.
01:15:40
Speaker
And then they so we were brought separately and started being questioned. At that time, we took nothing of it. then The last thing in our mind, not thinking about and And I remember when they said, sir, we're going to have to separate and take your daughter because we don't know the precise circumstances on the wish your son fell ill and died.
Investigation and Legal Battles
01:16:01
Speaker
And i often sometimes go back to that moment and I said, God, could I have done anything differently? Because I gotta be honest with you, ah as a father, my BC before Christ moments came back and I'm like, we're the beginning that I grew up from.
01:16:18
Speaker
If you did this to me, tell going to take my child. It's not happening. yeah It's just not happening. And I wanted to go Jamaican. I wanted to go BC. I'm like, you are not taking that. I don't care what, what if you bring an army here, it's not happening.
01:16:32
Speaker
um So you can just imagine. And that that was one of those moments where you're like, God, I'm trusting you. But in the natural, I want to take full control. Yes. you I want to take full control so much.
01:16:42
Speaker
And I often in the early days questioned myself. So I said, should I have put my faith aside and just let my flesh completely rule? And God says, no, no, son, we're not going to do this that way. We're not going to do it that way The following morning, I remember sitting in my living room and I was just as numb.
01:16:59
Speaker
And I said, God, where are you? And it was so clear to me, Pastor Joe, you came over to the house. We're sitting in the living room. And I remember a voice coming from um upstairs.
01:17:12
Speaker
And like the voice said, i am here, son. I am here. And every time I look over to that stairs going up in my my bedroom, I remember that voice as clear as right now. God says, I am here.
01:17:28
Speaker
I am here. Turned out that that CJ was pretty ill um and he had previous abuse physically and otherwise. And and know God protected us though because we actually took him to the hospital to do a physical and a health checkup.
01:17:45
Speaker
days before. and So they had that record that we took him there. And we only had one concern. We had a concern that when he's when he had he had old scars that doesn't seem like they were healing fast enough.
01:17:58
Speaker
And the doctor said, OK, we're going to go for additional tests. The day after he eventually passed out, passed away. So we don't know what was going on. And then God gave us a release because we wanted to find out what happened, what happened. and And it's nature. It's human nature. I think a lot of times when you have tragedy, you want to find out. But God prepared us for it because God says, I am the one who will give you the answer. Don't depend on the world to give you an answer as to what happened.
01:18:28
Speaker
And it turned out that in his cause of death and death certificate, right? They said cardiac arrest from unknown sources. um So it was inconclusive. But for four months, our daughter was not at home. Four months.
01:18:41
Speaker
The hardest four months of my entire life. Because during that time, investigation, court case, everything was going on. For four long months.
01:18:52
Speaker
Do you know what it is for your seven-year-old daughter to look at you and say, Daddy, when am I coming home? You know, they... Erica's grandmother and uncle that live close by. um we made an arrangement that she would stay there, but they would not allow her to come home.
01:19:06
Speaker
And she would have to pass the house to go to school every day during those four months. And we would have to get either supervised visit or under certain conditions while we're waiting on court cases and going to court. And you guys were there. You were supportive. You were there with us.
01:19:21
Speaker
um But in the long run, I remember our daughter on one Sunday service, she wrote on her envelope, or often envelope, she wrote that, God, I'm coming home on this day, coming home on this day.
01:19:36
Speaker
And don't you know that Friday when we went to court and I remember the judge look at us and said, Mr. robins mr Robinson, Mrs. Robinson, I completely apologize on behalf of the system. You should have never have gone through all that you have endured in the last four months.
01:19:55
Speaker
You guys are obviously an upstanding citizen. You're believers. You have done everything right. But it was just circumstantial evidence that they couldn't prove. And the system is such if they can't prove, then you get dragged through the mud like this. And our daughter came home in exactly four months and exactly the day that she wrote an orphan envelope that says, God, I need to come home on that day.
01:20:17
Speaker
And she came home. So it was a very painful, very, very painful period an hour in our lives, in our marriage. And, um, There were days when I was numb. There was days when I thought I could not live to see the end of the days. I remember there were days when I woke up and I'm like, God, I cannot take another breath.
01:20:35
Speaker
Like I used to minimize when people said they have panic attacks or stuff like that. And I experienced it my own self. I experienced not being able to, if I could take the next breath, I'm like, God, I don't know if I can endure this. I don't know if I can go
Endurance Through Faith
01:20:49
Speaker
through this. And what if I live through today? What's going to happen tomorrow and the next day and the next day?
01:20:55
Speaker
And we decided somehow we decided that we're not going to give up on God and we're not going to throw the towels in. i remember coming to church on Sundays and I knew we would worship and hear the word and I would go into pastor's office and I cried out and I and I screamed at God and I'm like, God, where are you? How could this happen?
01:21:13
Speaker
And I realized how real God is that he can handle that. What he can handle is is is if I was pretending or being hypocritical, he can handle the the truth and he can handle how I feel. And through this, I felt like God just kept molding and holding us.
01:21:28
Speaker
And day by day and week by week and month by month, he just kept us and strengthened us. and um And giving up was never going to be an option, never going to give up on God. But we couldn't do it on our own. We needed him and we needed all the relationships that he had.
01:21:42
Speaker
And oftentimes people ask us, how did we do it? And I said, I don't know, but I know God did it. Because in the natural, there was plenty of times that we could have called it quits. Plenty of times we could have said, that's it.
01:21:54
Speaker
But year by year, it gets better. And we truly know what the definition of insanity is. And our definition of insanity is going through tragedy without Jesus.
01:22:06
Speaker
I can't imagine. Yes. I can't imagine what that would be like. And little CJ turned out to be an angel for us. The time that we had him, God revealed to us that it's not in our timing.
01:22:18
Speaker
And the little time that we had him, he was such a blessing to us. And now he's among the witness of angels looking down. And every time when time gets tough, I remember him saying, Daddy, what are you doing? Because one of his favorite things when I would come home each day is to say, Daddy, what are you doing?
01:22:33
Speaker
What are you doing? So every time time gets tough for me now, I hear that voice says, Daddy, what are you doing? what are you doing? And, uh, so we're super blessed for the fact that, um, the faith and the fellowship and the family that we have, and, and we know it was not in vain at all. You know, we, we get to realize that nothing is wasted in God's hands and he, we've seen him work good out of all of this. I don't know if I would eventually have said yes to become a, an associate pastor, to be quite honest. Um, at the time when pastor Joe came, um, it was,
01:23:06
Speaker
after and And I was running from God in a way, right? I was like, God, this is you're not calling me to be an associate pastor. That's not what I signed up for. That was not part of the plan. That was not part of it at all.
01:23:18
Speaker
and And I remember getting ah almost a vision from God that says, this is the plan I have for you. And and I remember when CJ passed, Pastor Joe asked me to do a a message to preach. And he says, you can do this. I said, that's the last thing I want to do. He says, it's part of your healing.
01:23:35
Speaker
And it turned out exactly to be that and i preached a message that God gave me about the boy right in Mark chapter nine, that where, where, where God, you know, they brought him to Jesus and, and, and the disciples couldn't heal him.
01:23:49
Speaker
And, and God says certain things only come through fasting and prayer. and um And Jesus healed the boy. Eventually that boy passed away at some point. Right. Yeah. But God miraculous hand and the way God worked miracles is different from the way we think about it in the natural. In the natural, it makes no sense to most of you out there that are listening right now. You said, how could you still be saying that God is good and you're praising God when your promised child passed away? Why couldn't God save him? And I'm saying those answers are for God. But one thing I do know is this.
01:24:23
Speaker
is that God is real because I heard his voice plainly that day. And that if you just continue to trust him however you can, he's going to make you take those steps day by day by day.
01:24:37
Speaker
And I look back in the way we're living today and I can't fathom how it is that we got through that period before. But I know we got through it. And I know today we are able to serve God with all we got.
01:24:51
Speaker
And there is no plan B for us. ah It was only plan A. And we thought about plan B and it never worked out. And therefore, we're just sticking to who God is right now in our lives. Amen. Yeah.
01:25:03
Speaker
And we hope that it's a blessing to someone else to hear that story of how we overcame and endured and persevered. But it's all God. It's all God. Without a doubt. That test has become an amazing testimony. And we're so glad that we had you on the podcast today.
01:25:18
Speaker
Very, very uplifting. It's definitely going to give an upgrade to somebody that's listening because we all need... encouragement and you guys are an encouragement. Every time I see you, I'm just encouraged because I know what you've been through in your life and, you know, we'll hear about more of that another time, but with there's so much more.
01:25:40
Speaker
There's so much more, but what you shared today is definitely changing somebody's life. Yeah. And that's the takeaway is that in this world, we will have trial and tribulations. Things are going to happen out of our control, but we stay the course. We just stay with God. And you've done that.
01:25:57
Speaker
And that's a powerful testimony. And we laugh and we have joy. And I gotta tell you, whenever I think of CJ, I have joy because he was you, Junior. I was like, I don't know the world's ready for two of these guys. But he he was hey, he was with us for a time. He's in a blessed place right now, and you're gonna spend eternity with him. yeah And just to mention, if you're listening, if you don't know, Pastor Courtney, PC's mom comes to our church full-time now.
01:26:25
Speaker
And their daughter, Ria, is our social media director. She goes to Rutgers. And an amazing keyboardist. She's an amazing, talented kid. And we're just blessed to have you guys here today. And we'll talk to you all soon.
01:26:38
Speaker
Have a great day. God bless. Remember, it's only up from here.