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If It's Not Revealed, It Can Not Be Healed | Alicia Adevai | The Upgrade w Joe Adevai #002
88 Plays3 months ago
Pastor Joe sits down with his wife, Pastor Alicia Adevai, for a raw and deeply personal conversation about their journey together. Alicia opens up about growing up in an abusive home, surviving sexual abuse as a child, and the years of silence and fear that followed. She shares how she met Joe on a train platform in New Brunswick, what it was like marrying a former drug dealer turned Wall Street guy, and how building a life, a family of six kids, and a church together pushed both of them to the edge more than once. From a season where their marriage nearly fell apart to the Christ-centered counseling and deliverance that brought real healing, this episode is an honest look at what it actually takes to upgrade your marriage, your mental health, and your faith. If you think being saved means everything is fixed, this one's for you.
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Transcript
Introduction and Incident with Police
00:00:00
Speaker
I was in the other room, Joe and I were in the other room, and I just saw her leaving with the police. I'm like, what's going on? I went ran to the door. I go, no, no, no, arrest me. Because she never, i it was just like,
Special Guest Introduction and Early Life
00:00:12
Speaker
what?
00:00:12
Speaker
But unbeknownst to everyone, God was in the midst of this, and this was happening for a reason. Did they handcuff you? They handcuffed me. It's little comfortable. miss that part. If you've never been handcuffed, look, handcuffed, you're sitting in the back of the police car. been handcuffed. I've never been handcuffed. But wish I could have seen that. I'm talking to our audience.
00:00:31
Speaker
Welcome to The Upgrade. It's only up from here. I am Joseph Atavai, also known as Pastor Joe here at Grace Church of North Brunswick. We are in studio. We have a special guest here, but before we get to her, I just want to introduce our production team. That would be Joseph M. Atavai, and that would be Stephen B. George. I call him Super Bowl George, but...
00:00:55
Speaker
Today we have a special guest and that is this lovely lady across from me. She is my wife. She is the women's pastor at Grace Church, also known as Alicia Atavai.
00:01:08
Speaker
Hi, hon. Hi. Tell everybody about yourself. All right, a little bit about myself. I'll start when I was little. I was born middle child of three children to my mother and father who lived in Belleville, New Jersey.
00:01:31
Speaker
And as a young child, there was a lot of dysfunction in my household. I wasn't aware of it because I was just a little one, but my father was an alcoholic and quite abusive.
00:01:49
Speaker
And my mother was young. She had me when I was, when she was 20. And so by the time she was 23, she had three little ones.
00:01:59
Speaker
And she was living with a man who was very dysfunctional and just trying to put food on the table. And I remember oftentimes there would be police outside of our door.
00:02:11
Speaker
We lived in a two-family home. And he'd be saying, sir, you need to the door. I have your wife out here and she wants to get in the house and see the children. So that's a little bit of what remember as a little person.
00:02:26
Speaker
And... And then eventually by the time I was maybe five or six, my mother did leave my father and we went off to a one-bedroom apartment.
00:02:38
Speaker
So me my mother, my brother and sister lived in a one-bedroom apartment and we just struggled financially until she met my stepfather, whom she married when I was about 10 or 11 years old.
00:02:55
Speaker
And my stepfather... was not a good man. He was abusive and he had his own emotional problems. And he was very abusive, not just to me, but to my brother and my younger sister.
00:03:10
Speaker
And we had a lot of issues in the house. And by the time I was 17, my mother had discovered that he had indeed been sexually abusing me since I was maybe 11 years old.
Meeting Joe and Relationship Development
00:03:28
Speaker
And finally, how'd you find out? She found out because my younger sister started talking about my stepfather coming into her room and he's touching me and why is he doing this? And my mother had looked at me and said, well, has this ever happened to you? And I was just one of those quiet, introverted kids. Really? You? That kept everything in.
00:03:53
Speaker
And you couldn't pull anything out of me because I just withdrew and went inward. So by the time I was 17 and I did say, yes, this has been going on since I was 11, my mother, in an outrage, pulled all of us out of the house and took me and my sister actually to a woman's shelter in Elizabeth,
00:04:15
Speaker
And we stayed there for a couple nights. and And then she took my sister and myself down to Texas where she had a brother who lived there. And he said, come down here and stay with us. My older brother was in a relationship with someone, so he never really did come down to Texas with us.
00:04:35
Speaker
And we went down to Texas. And at that point, he had come down, my stepfather, and was trying to tell my mother that nothing really happened. He was sorry, but not that sorry because nothing really happened. And my sister and I at that point ran away and found ourselves in a shelter in Texas, in a juvenile shelter. And we were there for about a week.
00:05:02
Speaker
until we left. We left with some random strange guy. And maybe after about a week, I did contact my mother again.
00:05:14
Speaker
And we actually came back up to New Jersey.
Spiritual Awakening and Life Changes
00:05:18
Speaker
and And finished out my senior year of high school with a friend.
00:05:25
Speaker
I stayed at a friend's house around the corner. And my sister stayed elsewhere. My brother was with a woman he was in a relationship with. And so these were all my formative years. Just highly traumatic. Some people listening are going to wondering, you know, why doesn't somebody that's being abused say something?
00:05:47
Speaker
And some people will, you know, blame a woman or went when somebody in a power position abuses them and why don't they come forward and, you know,
00:06:03
Speaker
The reason is is because they don't know what it's like to be in that kind of situation. And, you know, there's a lot of fear. What will happen? Will they believe me?
00:06:14
Speaker
And even though your mother believed you and these things happen, he was still there. He was still there. She was too weak to really extricate herself from the relationship and leave him.
00:06:30
Speaker
And i was I was too afraid. I had been paralyzed with fear for all those years as a young girl. Well, it sounds like maybe it's something that runs in the family. I mean, but I don't want to disparage your mom because she's a great lady.
00:06:48
Speaker
And there were times after I got to know you and, you know, after we were together married that she did take some action, but it was just very difficult for her. And I, I don't want to judge her. i don't want people to judge her. You know what? Cause if you're not in the situation,
00:07:07
Speaker
You don't know what you would do. Because I was in the same sort of situation. Okay. So you went to high school. You got out of high school. I finally graduated high school. And then I went off to Rutgers College.
00:07:21
Speaker
And I lived on campus. And I loved being at Rutgers. I met ah great group of people. And we were sort of a family for the next four years at college.
00:07:34
Speaker
and And then as soon as i graduated, i found myself with a great job in New York City. And I was commuting back and forth from the New Brunswick train station. Yeah, then the greatest upgrade of your life. ah And when I was 25, going back and forth commuting, I noticed a really handsome guy on the platform and I said, hmm, maybe I'll thrill him and have a date with him. ah
00:08:07
Speaker
I don't believe that that's what went your mind. And that wasn't Dad. That was actually somebody else. I was waiting for somebody to throw that in. Production assistants aren't allowed to talk.
00:08:19
Speaker
ah So here I am at the on the train platform, and you caught my eye, and I was like, oh okay. But many, many, many months had gone by before I actually even saw you again. they were thinking about me all the time. No, not not really. No.
00:08:37
Speaker
I was living my life. and And then one day, the train doors opened and you got on and I just sort of- Wait minute, tell the truth.
00:08:48
Speaker
What? You followed me. Well, the train doors opened, you got on initially and I'm right behind you. And as you- Right behind me As you are walking down the aisles looking for a seat, I remember you sat in one of those seats where the two rows faced each other. Because back in the day, there was always guys on the train with the briefcases playing cards and they had to face each other. And so these chairs were positioned that way. And you sat down in one of those seats. And I thought to myself in a moment, wouldn't that be funny if I sat sat down right across from you?
00:09:24
Speaker
And thinking it and doing it instantly, I was like, I can't believe I just did this. I'm mortified. What an upgrade. that was for the job mom ah Look
Marriage Challenges and Spiritual Growth
00:09:34
Speaker
at the benefits of that. One little move. Right across from you and I said, hi.
00:09:40
Speaker
And then you said, hi. What did you say? That corny line. Do I know you from somewhere? Oh my gosh. So you and i both know we didn't know each other from anywhere except for this train platform. So we just got to talk. But I had known that you were going to be the girl i was going to marry for months, but I never met you or talked to you, but I knew it.
00:10:02
Speaker
Yeah. It's another story for another podcast. Yeah. And so by the time we got to the Newark train station, you had taken my number and you had gotten off because you were going downtown to work.
00:10:14
Speaker
And I continued uptown to Penn Station. And within, i don't know, a day or two, you called me and we planned for a date. Called you from a phone booth.
00:10:26
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, kids. Yeah, no cell phones back then. Back we couldn't, you know, text them. We had to pick up the phone, put a dime in. Yup. Not forbid you don't dime. We didn't have a landline at home. Put dime in a phone booth. Was it a dime or a quarter? Who knows? But you know what?
00:10:43
Speaker
we met We met up, we had a date, and then we just started dating. ye and And you know what? You fell in love. It was fun. We were enjoying one another, and you were playing football, and I was going to your games. I never really watched you play football, but I was there chatting with the girls on the stand, and you were good. Little spaghetti moves out there. Yeah, with your quarterback moves. but And so we were dating about seven, eight months.
00:11:12
Speaker
And we were we were having our own set of issues. We were disagreeing about certain subjects. Yes, we were. Because you had just met your brother and he was starting to share God and the things of God with you.
00:11:26
Speaker
And I remember we went out on a date to dinner one night and you started saying, do you believe in God? And I'm like, well, I mean, who doesn't believe in God? Everyone believes in God. And you were like, well, how can you know about a God that you don't know anything about?
00:11:40
Speaker
And I was like, i don't want to have this conversation anymore. because I just don't want to get too deep, because want to keep it surfish, because I don't know anything about God. And we were starting to argue, because you were starting to say that this was right, and that was wrong, and What? What did I say was right? You said abortion was wrong, and I had had two abortions up to that moment. Which i didn't know.
00:12:02
Speaker
Which you didn't know, and I had to live with myself, so I had to justify what I had done, so I didn't live in condemnation every minute of the day. and So I didn't want to have these conversations. They were too heavy, too deep. I wanted to keep things light.
00:12:16
Speaker
Because I didn't know anything about God, and I just, in my own mind, I just wanted to have fun. And i guess having fun didn't involve God, even though I didn't know anything about God.
00:12:29
Speaker
So we would have these conversations, and then... Conversations is a light way to put it. Yes, little arguments. Arguments. Yeah. and then I was very passionate about stuff. Yeah, you were.
00:12:44
Speaker
and You were much more easy going. Yeah. i was like. Well, i didn't have I didn't really have any convictions. I had no convictions. And I was just starting to have convictions. And I was not very good at handling these. Because I was just a very like. Loud person. Yeah, loud and aggressive about how I believed. And everybody better believe this. and Yeah.
00:13:04
Speaker
Well, I've learned yeah over the years that that doesn't work. But anyway, go ahead. So we were actually dating. And that one Friday night. I don't know what we were discussing, but somehow it came up that not only was I dating you, but I was dating another guy that I was working with.
00:13:22
Speaker
And that's because on many occasions, you would go out on a Friday night and binge all weekend with your friends on drugs. Oh, i was all over the place. And stumble in on a Sunday night. And I was like, well I'm not a drug girl. You were my nurse. Yeah.
00:13:35
Speaker
And sometimes it was just annoying. It was wearing. I was like, what am I doing with this guy? He's doing drugs. He's stumbling around. And so I was dating the other guy and then you found out and you were like, how could you do that to me? And I go, oh, someone's dictating morality to me. I go, how is that even possible? So we had had a huge fight and That was Friday night into Saturday, all day Saturday. You were hanging out with me in my apartment.
00:14:03
Speaker
And by Sunday morning, I had promised my aunt that I was going to come to her house because she kept inviting me to her house. She was always talking about Jesus.
00:14:14
Speaker
And I never wanted to go to her house because... I didn't want to have that Jesus conversation because I don't know anything about Jesus. And I just found the whole thing to be annoying. And I didn't want to go and I didn't want to go. But on this one Sunday morning, I said, you know what? I can't cancel on her.
00:14:31
Speaker
And I don't know why i felt like I couldn't cancel. I've canceled on her so many times. I just can't make it. Bye, click. But this one Sunday morning, I was like, i have to go. I promised her I was going. So I went to my aunt and uncle's house and they had two little kids and I was there all day. And I don't remember too much more than I just wasn't in a good headspace. and And I was just like, this relationship is probably over between you and i We have no foundation. And i mean, I didn't think too deeply on it.
00:15:02
Speaker
But just thinking this really wasn't going to work. And by the time it was evening, my aunt said, could you read the kids a bedtime story before you go?
00:15:13
Speaker
And I started reading this Jesus book. And I so finally, after a moment or two of reading this, I go, what am I reading? Who is this Moses Jesus? I have no idea what I'm reading right now. I have no idea what's going on.
00:15:26
Speaker
And my aunt and uncle stopped, and they just started explaining, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. You read the whole Bible? Yeah.
00:15:38
Speaker
And they just went
Career Instability and Family Life
00:15:40
Speaker
on from there. And I never heard anything like this. And my aunt and uncle said to me that if you were the only person in the whole world, Jesus would have come and went to the cross for you. That's how much he loved you. And I remember I just started crying.
00:15:56
Speaker
And I was like, wow I know I am. I'm not this lovable and I'm not worthy of someone dying for me, loving me like this. And I just remember crying and I said, all right, whatever, whatever i have to do, I don't know what, what do you want me to do? And she said, we're just going to, it was actually my uncle. He said, we're going to pray and receive Jesus right now.
00:16:17
Speaker
I said, okay. And I just bowed my head and I Received Jesus into my heart. And i was just forever changed in that moment. And I remember leaving that house.
00:16:31
Speaker
It was late. was probably after 11 o'clock at night. And I drove home feeling so weird, like I was high or something. and i You were free.
00:16:43
Speaker
I was free. I had never really done drugs. I'd smoked ah once or twice. I didn't like it. I tried Coke once. I didn't like it. You did? What? don't like it. When did you do that? Your son's here. He's just talking about his mouth. One time, just one time with a group of friends. And I remember going, ah I don't like it. Obviously, she didn't like it. she Yeah.
00:17:07
Speaker
Thank God I didn't like any of these things. What else did you try, mother? ah And full disclosure, thank God didn't like it. And so, but I remember feeling like I was high or something. And I got home and I remember calling you from my landline. i was like, who is this?
00:17:25
Speaker
i didn't even recognize their voice. I know. I just said, I just did the craziest thing. I don't even really know what I did, but I prayed to receive Jesus into my heart and I feel so different right now. And what did I say?
00:17:37
Speaker
You were like, oh, I've been praying for you. And I go, oh, my gosh. I don't think I had prayed for you. But yeah, I was like, you're a drug addict. you You're not praying for anybody than just to get drugs for yourself. i was a drug addict that was meeting God. Yes. Yes. Because your brother was really talking to you and you were listening. And I was investigating. I was looking at archaeology and history and different things. Yeah. Yeah.
00:18:04
Speaker
I really wanted to, like, is this true? Yeah. no So then when I heard you, i was like, who is that? I didn't even, Alicia? Yeah. You were totally different. i Totally different. i remember when I went to bed that night, woke up the next day, I felt like a whole different person.
00:18:22
Speaker
And I remember one of the first things I stopped doing in my in my new walk was I stopped cursing. I had a terrible truck driver mouth. F-N-F-N-F-N. It wasn't that bad. ah To me, it was really bad. and I heard a guy the other day, man. This guy was... That's another story are you for another day.
00:18:40
Speaker
But yeah, I just, i immediately stopped cursing. And, and my aunt every single day that week, she called me, she goes, remember now you're going to church on Sunday, you're going to church on Sunday. And I'm like, okay, okay, okay. So Friday night, I think you went out with my brother You were going to take him somewhere along there, yeah. Right, to Staten Island to introduce him to your friends. And I go, this cannot end well. And you didn't even stumble in until sometime early Sunday morning, like, right? It a couple days. It was like Thursday to Saturday night or something. But you stumbled in.
00:19:15
Speaker
ended up in a penthouse somewhere with people we barely knew. And he just I remember him looking at me like, my life is over. And I go, I'm not going back because she's there and she is going to kill me.
00:19:30
Speaker
Like she's the law now. she's She's a Christian. She's like turned her life around and I'm still stuck in this web of to see craziness. Yeah. It wasn't deceit. It was just. It's voucher. Yeah. Yeah, that.
00:19:45
Speaker
Pretty much that. so So we did come back at some point. did come back. And remember, you passed out on my floor in my bedroom. And then I remember getting up in the morning, and I was just kicking you and my brother. And I go, get up.
00:19:59
Speaker
My aunt said, we have to go to church. yeah We have to And my brother got up, and he goes, the heck with that. And he just left. He just walked out. And I went and... That little old man gave that message. Yeah, we found that little church on Livingston Ave.
00:20:13
Speaker
Just a little. i got saved. I've gotten saved a lot. so But that was a big one. Yeah. So we did. We went to church. That was the time you said, you're going to church.
00:20:26
Speaker
Yeah. i was like, okay. Like when you told me, you're taking that job. thank Anyway. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I started to get a little better and then you told me something the next weekend. You said something to me. Well, I think it was maybe a couple weeks later we were hanging around in my living room and I just said, now listen, I said, everything's going to be different. I said, I'm born But it wasn't really different because I was still messing up. Yeah.
00:20:53
Speaker
and We had gone to another church and remember you had, you know, went forward or received Jesus I think that Lincroft church, remember? Anyway, so it was weeks later and just hanging out in my living room. And I said, listen, I'm not going to be, we're not the same people. I'm not going to be doing what I was doing. You're gonna stop doing drugs. And I said, you know what?
00:21:14
Speaker
This is game changer. I said, you know what? I think we should get married. I think we should get married either this coming spring or wait to the fall. Which one? now I was definitely on a,
00:21:29
Speaker
I had come off of something where I was gone for a couple of days. And so I was really tired. Yeah. But you had a different attitude. Like you thought I was getting better, yes I guess. did. Because I was sort of getting better. So instead of five days away, see it was one and a half.
00:21:46
Speaker
But I remember thinking, she said spring. I go, that's like in a month. Well, because this was like March. Or the fall. I'm like, the fall. That's further away. I go, okay, the fall. Yeah. i What a salesperson. She was so good at sales. She got me good.
00:22:00
Speaker
Yeah, got you good. So I said the fall. you were i was getting you ready for your upgrade. Yeah.
00:22:09
Speaker
ah So what did we do? It was an upgrade. We started planning for our November wedding. And we were so excited that we decided that we were going to find our own little place together.
00:22:23
Speaker
And everyone counseled us that we shouldn't move in together until we got married. We said, no, no, no, no you don't understand. We have Jesus now and we're in love and we're going to get married in six, seven months. And so what do we do? We, against everyone's best wise judgment, we went and found an apartment together. Most of our friends were not thinking that way. It was just a small... My brother who's out of the country or something and your aunt who's an hour away. Yeah, so we moved in together and after moving in about three weeks, you made a decision.
00:23:00
Speaker
We can't keep doing... Felt guilty. Yeah, we can't keep doing the things that we're doing. So we need to stop. And then we made a decision that we weren't going to do anything until we got married. Abstain till marriage. Yeah.
00:23:11
Speaker
And that wasn't hard for me, but it's never hard for a woman. It's much harder for a guy. Definitely much harder for a guy. So, but we made that decision and God honored that.
Starting a Church and Personal Breakdowns
00:23:23
Speaker
And i always think to this day, God honored it because when we got married, God blessed us with six kids, you know? Yes. Mm-hmm. It wasn't as hard for me in this fact that I had been so loose before we met and it had led me to emptiness. so i wasn't I was looking for the love of my life, not the sex object of my life.
00:23:49
Speaker
Even though you were beautiful, obviously, but you had that beauty inside. That's what attracted me to you is that beauty inside that you had not only have really beautiful eyes and just beautiful smile and loved you your body everything the way you looked just everything know you had that inner thing that i really like wow yeah i love her i'm marrying her well you had never been with a girl that Well, let's not knock every one of my old girlfriends. No, but you've never been with girl that was following Jesus. They be listening. They were all really nice. No, it just wasn't meant to be.
00:24:30
Speaker
This was definitely meant to be. So actually, um in that interim period that we were living together, i was working with a girl um at Pitney Bowes.
00:24:43
Speaker
And when I told her I got born again, she was like, oh, you must come to our church in New York City. Remember? And we went to the Church of Christ in New York City, which initially we loved it. Oh my gosh, it was 2000 young people. We were right in the midst of like a huge Jesus party. 72nd Street. Yep.
00:25:04
Speaker
And we just loved it every week. And then the Beacon Theater, I believe it was. Yeah, all the way uptown. And that we did that every Sunday for months and months and months. And we joined a little a home group. They had a little home group in... In this area where were living. Yeah, a young couple. And we would start going to their house. And and that we were just falling in love with Jesus and everything was wonderful until we realized that unbeknownst to us, this was really a cult church. Yeah, it was a cult.
00:25:34
Speaker
Yeah, and because we had just gotten married in November, and we were at their house, and they were telling us something, and we weren't agreeing with them. wasn't agreeing. You weren't agreeing, and I was- I was talking to my brother, who's a theologian from Dallas Theological Seminary. He's got his master of divinity. Yes. Like a professor.
00:25:56
Speaker
So your brother's telling you this is a cult church and you know this is not good. And me, I was like, I don't know any better. How do I know any better? So I was like, okay, maybe I agree with you. And they're like, well, if your husband doesn't agree, you're going to have to get divorced. And I go, divorce? I just married him. ah So eventually. Why'd you get divorced? Because of God. so I don't think so. Between your brother and my aunt, we got out of that church. and God bless them. They're wonderful people. It's not.
00:26:28
Speaker
It's just the thinking was wrong. It was wrong. and There wasn't grace. It wasn't that Jesus died on the cross for your sins, put your faith and trust in that, repent of your sins, and trust Jesus what he did. it was more like, no, you have to do more.
00:26:46
Speaker
Yeah. It was basically a church that said if you weren't baptized with that in mind that you weren't a Christian. You know, we had we had gotten baptized, but they were like, no, you need to get baptized the way we do it.
00:26:56
Speaker
Yeah. And you can't think that you're saved until we baptize you under the water. And I was like, wow this is a different way of thinking. And it's really wrong. So we had been there for, I don't know, close to a year.
00:27:10
Speaker
We were there for a while. and And then next thing you know, um Alex. Yeah, we had a daughter. Yeah, Alex came into the world. She's our firstborn, Alexandra.
00:27:24
Speaker
And she came in January. And I remember thinking, I'm definitely going to go back to work. But the minute I had her and I held her on my arms, I remember thinking, I am never leaving this baby and going back to work. And I guess I was finally on the trading floor and making some decent money.
00:27:46
Speaker
I was making decent money at that time. i was a trader trading for CRT trading options and I was doing well. I was, I was on my way up the ladder. We start, we bought a little house in Edison, our little starter home.
00:28:01
Speaker
Yeah, where when you wake up in your bedroom, you bump your head into the ceiling. the slanted ceiling, yes. In the dorm room. Yes. And we were there, and then we Victoria, who's our second daughter. And we're in a church now.
00:28:15
Speaker
And now we're in a church. And actually, when Alex was six weeks old, um my aunt had called me and said, there's a startup church, a Bible fellowship startup church in Edison, not too far from you. Why don't you go over there? And so we got in the car. It was probably a three-minute drive. And we went over to the Cahill's house.
00:28:33
Speaker
And they had maybe, I don't know, a dozen people in their home. It like 10. Okay. And we, including pastor John and Susan Bevilac were are good friends. Yes. Yes. podcast Alex was just six weeks old in her little infancy. Pastor John was playing the keys. Yep.
00:28:50
Speaker
Keys was like an old piano and they were singing like hymns and was like an old organ for me. It was just like, I am so out of my element right now, but we decided we're going to do it God's way.
00:29:03
Speaker
Yep. And that church was eight or 10 people. And, And I made, we we as a church made 10,000 phone calls for our first service.
00:29:15
Speaker
And I think I made about 3,000 of them. yeah That's how zealous I was to do God's work. Yeah. And our first service, they i'll not you know I'm good with numbers. There was 188 people there.
00:29:29
Speaker
Wow. We met in that Washington school. Yep. Because we made those phone calls. in the gym Yep. 188 people. Now the second... Third week there was 30 or 40, but still we started with. 10 or 12, and we had 188 people at that first service. And we were actually in that church for close to 10 years. Yeah, I was an usher.
00:29:49
Speaker
yeah You had your ladies' Bible study. i mean I became an elder. i got to preach there. yeah When we did leave, there was 350 people there. So we helped to grow that church. That's a lot of where I learned, and we learned what we're doing now. so anyway, okay so you got two kids now.
00:30:08
Speaker
Well, now we have two kids and we... It's 1991, 92. Yeah, and now we find another house and we found a house in North Brunswick, New Jersey.
00:30:21
Speaker
and Which is where I was born. Yeah. But we didn't know, we never even thought about where that house was. Nope. We never said, oh, this is where you were born, North Brunswick. We just found a house and bought it. Well, it meant nothing to me. I was i was raised in North and i wasn't even thinking about it. Mm-hmm.
00:30:36
Speaker
And so we got into a new home. You know what they say, new house, new baby. So as soon as we got into that new house, I got pregnant with Jacqueline. And gosh, here we are. it was a nice house because I had been doing pretty well. Yes, it was a beautiful house, but we weren't even in it too long.
00:30:55
Speaker
And then you had lost your job. And you said, I don't know if we can stay in this house. And I remember crying. And you went to some place and you got a sign out front and said for sale. And I remember looking out the window, looking at that sign, just sobbing. I was like, God, really? Like, how could you bring me to this house? And now you're going take it away.
00:31:13
Speaker
I was really sad in my heart. I had nobody to get advice from. So I was just. And then I remember the realtor. said to me don't sell your house just hold on to that house so i took the sign up yeah and figured out a way and so then i went through some real tumultuous financial times oh we have been making and losing up and down companies money millions of dollars back and forth getting the job losing the job getting a job losing the job stressed
00:31:47
Speaker
hu And then you had. And then Joey came. Little Joey came. we finally got the boy. Yep, finally. We had three girls and then the boy. And when we were in the hospital and I saw the boy thing. What did I do? Oh, the whole hospital knew. The whole hospital knew. They were like, are you the guy? That has a boy. That finally had the boy. Yep.
00:32:07
Speaker
So if you're listening and you're on girl two, three, or four, keep going. Keep going. Or if you're on boy three or four and you want that girl, just keep going. Inevitably. God will bless you. Just keep going. so then, but this is what happened right when Joey was born. You had lost your job.
00:32:28
Speaker
Yes. Yes. And now we were in really dire straits. $170,000. It was my sort of my mentor and on the trading floor. you know I had gotten involved in a Bible study on the trading floor, and a small loss turned into like $170,000. gosh.
00:32:51
Speaker
And, you know, at first he was upset. He wanted us to give him our house. I mean, it just, it was a big mess, but this is about you. Yeah. So anyway. felt that strain a little bit. Oh, I felt it a lot. And here I am with four little kids.
00:33:06
Speaker
And, and then I remember we're at church and we're, there was a bulletin and it said, do you want to be a host family for an exchange, an international exchange student?
00:33:18
Speaker
And I remember thinking, we have that one room downstairs off of the laundry room and it's its own side entrance yeah with its bathroom. And I said, you know what? Let's bring Maybe. we should it was It was like one of our first big steps of faith, right?
00:33:32
Speaker
Oh my gosh. And I said, why don't we just do that? Why don't we just bring in an exchange student? We sat down, we looked at all those cute little heads and we picked Metta and Metta. From Denmark. Yep. Metta.
00:33:45
Speaker
She came and lived with us. um She was going to be here for her senior year of high school. And I was doing construction work at the time because I had lost my job on Wall Street and I was doing construction.
00:33:59
Speaker
And so we here we have a 17-year-old international exchange student from Denmark, Meta. And initially, you know, she comes from a godless country. I had these four little kids. And i she wasn't there to be my nanny. She wasn't there to clean the house. She wasn't there for any of these things. They made it perfectly clear you're just a host family. She teenager high school. Yeah, and you're just going to be a great influence, a great role model for her to have a great experience here for a year while she's attending high school.
00:34:29
Speaker
And I remember thinking, that's fine. I'll run her around. I'll do everything she needs me to do for her. But I do really just need her to do a couple things, like if I ask her to vacuum or straighten up or clean up, not even watch the kids. That wasn't why she was there. But I remember she would just give me a hard time, and I was... Oh, yeah. I was like, oh my gosh. She was in those teen rebellious
Healing through Counseling and Humor
00:34:52
Speaker
years. I said, I don't know what going to do with this meta. And then there was, you were taking all the kids on a winter retreat. The youth. I was a youth leader at the church. yu And you were taking all the kids away for a long three-day winter retreat weekend.
00:35:08
Speaker
And I said to meta, you're going. She goes, I am not going. I go, oh, oh, oh, you are going. And I said, I'll pack your bag right now if you don't. And so angrily, she packed her little bag.
00:35:20
Speaker
You took her and a bunch of ah youth off for the weekend, and she got radically saved. It was called snow glow. Yeah. you know, that's still going on. Is it really? Yes.
00:35:31
Speaker
Snow glow. She got radically saved. So she back and she gave a testimony. oh my gosh. At church we were at then. the whole church cried. And she really had a radical conversion. And then she left. And as soon as she left, I found out I was pregnant.
00:35:45
Speaker
Oh God. With the twins. Can you imagine? working, don't know how many jobs. I'm trying to keep this thing afloat. And I come home and she says she's pregnant. And she says, you know, I've been praying for one more boy so Joey could have somebody to play with or beat up or whatever was. Not just like Barbie dolls all day with his sisters. Yeah. Every brother needs a little brother to beat up. Anyway.
00:36:08
Speaker
And you're like, one day i come and you're like, it's twins. I remember they're at the kitchen table, and went black for a minute, I think, and I went, stop. Don't mess with me. Stop it.
00:36:23
Speaker
She goes, no, it's twins. I go, stop it. I know you're messing around. There's no way. I couldn't accept it. Yeah. I couldn't even comprehend the – it's like, really?
00:36:34
Speaker
We just – exchange student just left. We got four kids. I'm trying to support this, and you're going to tell me there's two more? yep I remember thinking this Joseph name, you know, where God adds, like this is a little too much. You better add some money. Better add some money. ah God was upgrading us. i was like, oh my gosh.
00:36:56
Speaker
So next thing you know, those twins were born in March and Alex had just turned seven. In January. So I had all six of these little people in seven years, and it was honestly a big blur.
00:37:11
Speaker
It was a big blur. I was exhausted all the time, all the time. I watch my daughter-in-law and my daughters with their two little three kids, and they're like, so... I'm like...
00:37:24
Speaker
And then they they say, mom i don't know how you did it. Mom, know how you did it. You know what? I don't know you did it. don't know how did it. Because I was working all the time. I was getting up at 5 something, know, getting out of the house by 6 something to get into the city. And then sometimes I wouldn't get home until 6, 7, 8. And then if I had to travel, mean, it was just a lot. That's right. Those twins were three weeks old and you said, I'm leaving. I have to go on a business trip and I won't be, I'll be gone for days. finally gotten a job back on Wall Street.
00:37:55
Speaker
Yeah. I had finally gotten a job and I had to keep it. I mean, yeah I was working my way back from the bottom again. Mm-hmm. But you know what? God sustained us, and he's our strength always.
00:38:09
Speaker
From whence does your help come? My help comes from the Lord, maker of heaven and and earth. I just clung to that verse. And you know what? We were making it through, and God was blessing and prospering us.
00:38:22
Speaker
And then one day, what happened? You came home and said, God's calling me to start our own church. Whoa. Yeah. Right? I was in 2000, July 23rd.
00:38:37
Speaker
And I was like, no way. We're not doing this. I have enough on my plate with these six kids. We are not doing this. I don't think that's how you said it. Oh, that's the nice version. You said you're crazy. im like No, well, at the time, so ah in the mid-90s when I got back on my feet as i was an over-the-counter broker,
00:38:56
Speaker
I was doing really well, and I decided to go back to trading for a bank, and and it was downhill from there. I lost money. worked for a hedge fund. i lost millions after making millions. I just went through these ups and downs, and when I came home that day to say about the church, we were broke, and I didn't have a job.
00:39:15
Speaker
Yeah. We had ton of debt. And I said, listen, I don't know about the stupid church thing. I said, you know what? You you need a job. new but were You go get a job. ah ah ah But I was so sure it was God's will that I know i was so free. and I know. Even though I was going through it, I knew that that's what I had to do.
00:39:39
Speaker
And then we prayed and I did get the job in February. So it was like from
00:39:46
Speaker
August, July, August, September, October, November, December, January. So once you started the church. It was like seven months. Well, yeah, yeah. And once you started the church, um you know, it was a matter of time before God handed you that other great job, which yeah which you didn't deem as great initially. Yes. But but you said you're taking that job.
00:40:07
Speaker
Taking that job. Thank God I listened to you. Thank God. Yep. Listen. Listen. You know, I am the big boss. You know, I am the king family, right?
00:40:18
Speaker
But you're really smart. And you said you better take well because that was the job we were praying for, that you wouldn't be trading. It's amazing. Like, you'll pray, God, God, God, god and he gives you something. you're like, no, i don't want that. yep I wanted something else. I wanted to go back to trading, but deep my heart, I knew no it wasn't a good idea. It wasn't good for your personality. I went to a company that helped people trade, and I became a senior vice president and retired. But anyway, so we start the church. start How long did it take from the August 27th, which was our first service? How long did it take for you to be in on it? Oh my gosh. It actually took me a while.
00:40:59
Speaker
It took me a while. You know what? I was not as exhausted because the kids were a little bit older at this point. Right. um But I didn't want to do it. I didn't want to do it. It just seemed like a lot of work to me. And you know what? It was a lot of work. It was a lot of work. And the truth was, because I still wasn't free yet, really was. I was a people person, but I wasn't.
00:41:21
Speaker
Like, I love to be around people and have fun, but I don't want to be around people and have to do any kind of real work, anything that took anything. and And I was like, I know this is going to take something, and I don't think I have it to give it.
00:41:34
Speaker
i don't even want to give it. So I didn't like the whole idea. It took me a a long time to get on board. oh yeah. Yep. And so we started the church, and we're doing our thing. and You still had your ladies' Bible study, though, everyone say. Yep. From the old church, you were still doing it. Yep.
00:41:53
Speaker
I had that ladies Wednesday Bible study for forever. There was always women in my home. There's always kids downstairs. Yep. God was preparing you to pastor women.
00:42:04
Speaker
Yeah. And that's what you do now. Yeah. We're just making it, but I was a lot happier because I was preaching, which is what I was obviously called to do. yeah i remember one time took the kids on vacation, and we didn't have any money, so we put them in our whatever we were driving, a minivan or whatever.
00:42:24
Speaker
And we drove around for like an hour, but we only went like a couple miles down the road. I pulled up into this hotel, and I go, here we are, everybody. It was like a little hotel with an Applebee's next door. yeah And the plan was to make them think that we went on a really long. We had a hotel room.
00:42:45
Speaker
All of us slept. All eight of us slept in the one hotel room. And then we woke up. We woke up and went to, I don't know. Great adventure. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, yeah. And they thought, you know, I had them fooled. It was fun. Yeah. Joey still thinks we were in Florida. I just drove around to make them think we were going far away. i mean, you had to do stuff like that, you know? yeah If we would have gotten in the car and drove three minutes and pulled into some hotel on on the Route 1, they would have known.
00:43:12
Speaker
Yeah. So anyway. One of our kids, actually, when we were in the hotel, everybody was swimming in the pool. I'm not going to say who it was. One of our kids threw up in the pool and they had to close it down. I don't think there was anybody but us in the pool anyway. Oh, my gosh.
00:43:26
Speaker
Anyway, but those are fun times. The early church. Struggle. Struggle. Yep. The church was a struggle because I was working all week. You were taking care of the kids all week. And then Saturday, I got to get a message really quick.
00:43:39
Speaker
Yeah. It was very stressful. Yes, and I feel like the kids suffered from not enough time with me because of my work in the church. So, you know, I'm making reparations now. Yes, you are.
00:43:51
Speaker
Take the grandkids, you know, and they don't come back for a month. That kind of stuff, you know. Yeah. You should take them more. Yeah. More repercussions. More repercussions.
00:44:03
Speaker
That's right. still working off. ah So things are going along pretty good until we get to 2009 time. Well, actually, back it up.
00:44:17
Speaker
We... Buy a house in 2006. Yeah, we move. Yeah. It's a little bigger of a house. Yep. I just wanted something bigger with a bigger dining room so we could all actually, you know, on these wonderful holidays, all be in the same room together. We're big on family gathering and entertaining and hospitality. My God, that's all we do.
00:44:37
Speaker
So we found a house down the street. Yep. and so In North Brunswick. We're in a nice home and things are going well for a while. And what happens?
00:44:48
Speaker
Your father dies. And next thing you know, my stepfather... um Beginning in 2009, he dies? He dies. He wasn't feeling good around Thanksgiving, and they discovered he had stage four cancer throughout his body, and within months, we were burying him. everybody was like, oh, the wicked witch is dead, and everything's great now, and I'm thinking to myself, oh, no.
00:45:13
Speaker
Something's going to happen. and I know it, because where's all that anger going to go? Yeah. Yeah, because while he was alive, I had a place to put all my anger. You, your brother, your sister. Everybody. And now that he's gone. Me.
00:45:26
Speaker
Yeah. And all of a sudden, this is now about, gosh, a month or so later on one crazy Tuesday night. It's a Tuesday or Wednesday night, right?
00:45:43
Speaker
um We're just sitting around watching TV. Just... I don't know, having a glass of wine, talking about stuff. And out of nowhere. i was trying to be affectionate. Yeah.
00:45:55
Speaker
And out of nowhere, I just. Which is was never your strong point. Never. Obviously, because of what you went through. Yeah. And so I just, I remember unraveling, unraveling, and I just snapped. You was mad, girl. Yeah.
00:46:09
Speaker
I was really. And all of a sudden, I just disconnected. Like, just My whole psyche just disconnected. And I remember getting really mad. And for some reason, you were going to be the person now. You were going to be Ray. And I was going to take out all my anger on you because I never had dealt with what had happened to me.
00:46:30
Speaker
All those years of being abused, I remember had I'd gone to counselors, after college, but they were worldly counselors, never really helped me. So I stopped going and I never really had anyone to talk to about what I went through. So it it was in me. It was always in me. It was, had never been dealt with.
00:46:53
Speaker
And it was just festering. You hear about this all the time. Like people that had abuse, maybe never dealt with, never even knew some people block it out, yep but it always comes out yeah when it does look out. And so that night was lookout night. Oh, yeah. And I just snapped and I came down on you. And i mean, was. you don't fill in the details, going to. ahead. Go ahead.
00:47:15
Speaker
Yeah, because you went to the knife block. I know. You pulled out a knife and you were like, sort of chased me. And man, I'm fast and I'm really fast when somebody's got a knife. So I was, I don't know if you were really trying to stab me, but you were just mad. So you would just like had in your hand. i was, i I was in between laughing and like running. Like, is this really happening?
00:47:41
Speaker
We've heard this story a lot. What knife was it? Was it a steak knife? Was it one of the big ones? It was one of my expensive Cutco knives. It was one of those Cutco ones, those long, just the regular yeah utility knife, not the butcher knife. That's your story.
00:48:00
Speaker
My whole life has been dodging knives. Anyway. ah Knives out. Part Knives out. But yeah, it was a regular sort of ah serrated edge knife. Yeah. Enough to scare you.
00:48:12
Speaker
That's all you need. I was unraveling. I was starting to just disconnect because I was just. And then you ran upstairs. Yep. Ran upstairs. I was on the balcony and I looked down and I remember this.
00:48:24
Speaker
I was like, I'm going to. Yeah, it was like something from the, remember the Exorcist movie? Yeah, yeah. It's like, i'm going to take your time. ah Yeah. And Jackie was there, our daughter, and I was like, Jackie, I need you to watch everything here because...
00:48:41
Speaker
She's going to call the cops on me, right? And I think you had called the cops on me once years before that, and probably for good reason. I probably was stressed, and I lost it. I never hit you or anything or whatever, but I was just yelling or but i watched my mother do that yes my whole life. so So I said, if they come to war our house and she tells them whatever they tell she tells them, they're going to arrest me and forget it.
00:49:03
Speaker
Yeah, and I did. I called the police. had a lot to lose. Ministry, everything. Yeah. You were like, don't do it. And i'm like, I'm doing it. Like, I don't even know why I'm doing it. I was just, I lost it. I lost it at that point. I had snapped and the police came and the whole cul-de-sac was filled with police cars. gathered my son, Joe and Jackie around said, guys, you got to tell them that I didn't do anything physically. Cause if they think if she says I did and seems like she's gonna, I will be arrested.
00:49:33
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Well, the police were like, all right, what's going on here? And I said, well, think- they put me in the other room. yeah to They said, get in there. They yelled at me because I was trying to talk to them. They said, get in there and sit down. i was like, oh, Jesus. Because in their mind, you're the bad guy. Yes. you You must be doing something bad. So they're asking me what's going on. And I said, well, I'm just angry.
00:49:55
Speaker
And I think I just want to kill him. Oh, that's things you should never say. But I was really unraveling. So they were like, well, what do you mean you want to kill him? Like, what does that look like?
00:50:08
Speaker
And I said, i don't know. I'm just going to stab him with a knife. and They're like, what knife? And I go, probably this knife. And that was it. They're like, ma'am. You need to get dressed because it was late at night, maybe 10, 1030. Ma'am, you need to get dressed. And they squirted me upstairs.
00:50:22
Speaker
And then um I got clothes on i out of my pajamas. And they're like, we need to take you down to the police station. And I remember like at this point, I think I'm in a fog. I'm in a daze. And they're like, we're not going to arrest you in front of your kids because the four of them were home. Alex and Victoria were not there at the time.
00:50:41
Speaker
But everyone else was there. And they're like, we don't want to handcuff you in front of your kids. So we're going to walk out the door. You're going to go to the police car and then we're gonna handcuff you. And I remember like at this point, I'm just in a daze. I'm just like, this is surreal. I was in the other room. Joe and I were in the other room and I just saw her leaving with the police. I'm like, what's going on? I went ran to the door. I go, no, no, no. Arrest me.
00:51:05
Speaker
Cause she never, i it was just like, what? Yeah. Something. Really crazy is going on around here. know I know. was like, not her. It's me. But unbeknownst to everyone, God was in the midst of this. And this was happening for a reason. so Did they handcuff you? They handcuffed me. little uncomfortable. missed that part. If you've never been handcuffed, look, handcuffed. You're sitting in the back of the police car. I've been handcuffed. If I've never been, I've been handcuffed. But I wish could have seen that. talking to audience.
00:51:31
Speaker
I wish I could have seen that. missed that. So I got to the police precinct and it's late. It's, you know, maybe 11 and they fingerprint me. They mugshot me and they stick me in a cell.
00:51:43
Speaker
And it's not a big precinct over there in North Brunswick, but they stick me in the cell. And I remember sitting there going, what is going on right now? I don't really even know what's going on right now. And I look over and there's a German shepherd in the other cell. I'm like,
00:51:55
Speaker
Where am I right now? In like a dog jail? You're in jail. And I just sat there not too long, maybe an hour or two. And then you and Joey came and bailed me out. And I remember getting in the car and I was so angry. I looked at you and I go, i like don't you ever talk to me again. I hate you. I can't believe you let this happen.
00:52:15
Speaker
I remember saying to my son, I can't believe it. We're going to the precinct to get your mother. I mean, this can't even be real. I'm like, this cannot even be real. We're going to the precinct to get Alicia.
00:52:27
Speaker
I mean, this is hilarious to get my son. It'd be one thing, you know? Yeah, it's true. To get your wife. It's crazy. That was kind of crazy. So it probably was around. you're like the most innocent person I've ever known. Oh, my gosh. The gentlest, nicest.
00:52:44
Speaker
So funny. So we got home. It's late. And you stayed downstairs, and I went upstairs. It's all right I stayed downstairs. i don't think I slept. I didn't sleep at all. I was upstairs tossing and turning, and I was just angry all night long. Angry. was so Angry. Take it easy. And I remember I woke up in the morning and I came downstairs.
00:53:07
Speaker
I just, I looked at you. We were in
Advocacy for Counseling and Healing
00:53:10
Speaker
sunroom. I just looked at you and I started crying. i was like, oh, thank God. I just. I'm going to live.
00:53:18
Speaker
I just started crying. And I just cried and cried. didn't stop crying. going to make me right now. I just didn't stop crying. I just. You didn't stop crying for like a month. Yeah.
00:53:29
Speaker
I just cried and cried. And my brother. God used my brother to actually be a blessing in my life because my brother said, you know what? I know a guy who knows a guy and this guy is a counselor and he counsels not just women, but people who have been abused. And he also goes into the jails and he counsels the people who are the abusers, the perpetrators. And he goes, do you want to like me to find this guy's number and you could actually maybe talk to him?
00:54:00
Speaker
And i reached out to this guy and I started my counseling and that counseling saved my life. All that stuff for years and years and years and years that was inside of me, that was toxic and poisonous came out of me. And this guy, God just used this older Catholic guy, this counselor to just draw this stuff out of me and just bring healing to my heart.
00:54:28
Speaker
And That was so necessary because at this moment, a week after that, it was a Wednesday morning, a week after I was arrested, um I had been given a summons to appear in court because the state of New Jersey was going to press charges against me. oh we didn't know what the charges were until we went to the court.
00:54:54
Speaker
And I was like, what what do you mean they're going to, who's pressing charges against me? So we got our friend to represent us. Remember Mike represented us. He met us there. And it was, you know, that crazy but Wednesday morning, a week later, it was my birthday that morning. when we march It was March 4th. We went to the courthouse and it just happened to be that there was like 200 people there. There was 5 million people there.
00:55:17
Speaker
In the courthouse, and then we had to get in line, when we got to her, I mean, she was really freaking out. I thought I was to hard attack. She's never been involved in any of this stuff. Me, I was like, yeah, I kind of used to do this. Go to court. thought was just going to literally have a hard attack. And the judge goes, I think, he's going to dismiss the charges. He goes, no, we are charging you with domestic terrorism. Yeah. Yeah.
00:55:40
Speaker
You, like, crumbled, like, just... I was like, wait, what? What's going on right now? The state of New Jersey charges me. hey And this is... Domestic terror. and And they had the knife.
00:55:51
Speaker
Oh, my gosh. And the plastic bag. Oh, my... I need my knife back, but... Do you know, he looked at me, and this was the first glimmer of hope in all of this, because that was the most stressful week in my life waiting for that that court appearance. But he says, you're going to plead not guilty, right, Mrs. Atavai?
00:56:11
Speaker
And I went, oh, not guilty. I went before a grand jury. There was a grand jury investigation. I was the big witness. Yeah. You know, i was weighing the scales. Now what should i do? Oh my goodness. Leading up to that grand jury, I had never seen you like that. You were so afraid, worried. I think it was good, what? Because people were saying you're going to eight you're gonna do time and all this stuff. gosh, you're going to, yeah. I wasn't worried for moment. You're going to jail. And I was like, what? I'm going to jail. For once in my life, I wasn't worried beat and you weren't.
00:56:46
Speaker
It was such a backwards thing. Oh my gosh. I had so much confidence. Yeah. So I went before the grand jury and i had them laughing. Like, when I left the grand jury room, you could hear them cracking up.
00:57:00
Speaker
yeah And we knew right then. And they said, yeah, your case is going to get dismissed. Because I was like, yeah I wasn't afraid of her. Nobody. that We're talking about Alicia. Like, I just had them laughing. Yeah, but you know what?
00:57:14
Speaker
When I reflect back on that time, that was one of the hardest times I've ever been through. But that was God. That was God preparing a way for me to get my healing that I needed so desperately.
00:57:27
Speaker
And God loved me too much to leave me in that really bad place that I was in. And that was it. i Thank God I had started going to the counseling. and it was just I would just go and just cry for hours and hours and hours. And this guy never looked at his watch and said, time is up.
00:57:41
Speaker
I mean, after a couple hours, I'm sure he did. But I just remember going week into week, month into month, and just crying for months and months and months. And just and the one thing that I remember this counselor saying to me is, you are classic textbook.
00:57:57
Speaker
And i I just remember going, I don't know what that means. What does that mean? And he pointed to all the books on his shelf in a huge library of books. people he goes up great He goes, how many people have gone through what you've gone through? Classic textbook. You're not alone. You're not the only one that has ever gone through this. So many women, so many people have just gone through this. And you know what? You're going to get through it and you're going to come out the other side.
00:58:21
Speaker
And I just like I remember that. And he was right. But it took hours and hours. Meanwhile, all I used to ever talk about in church was you got to be real. It's if it's not revealed, you can't be healed and all this kind of stuff. But when you're in that, you don't even know.
00:58:36
Speaker
and You never even knew. I never even knew what that meant. Because everybody thought you were like the happiest, most whatever blessed person. And nobody knew. that there was something inside of it that needed to come out. I was stuck. Like I was the most stuck person. But once you did that, once you had that breakdown and breakthrough, you were totally changed. Your ministry took off with the women. And then you became the, we got to talk about it. We got to reveal it. I'm like, where has this been? And you you like went past me.
00:59:05
Speaker
You were like, zoom like a motorcycle, just zip by me. And you were like, you're the, year're that we got to tell the truth and reveal everything. And I'm like, I've been preaching this for how many years?
00:59:16
Speaker
But it meant nothing to me because I was stuck. No, but it meant a lot to a lot of other people because you helped them. you helped a lot of people get so when i think back on that time that was necessary god allowed that to happen that was the second big after you got saved that was the second big radical radical transformation in your life yeah and so we're here 16 years later yeah it's still a main part of how you minister to people right like for people are really talk yeah
00:59:47
Speaker
And then some of our kids, they suffered from the same thing a little bit, right? Yeah. and And you've helped them. When anything comes up, I go, that's it. Let's all get in this room. We're talking about stuff. We're just going to peel away every ugly layer and deal with this. And we're going to cry until we get our healing. It's the point where it's like, i don't want to do it. I used to be like, we got to talk about this because my mother was a psychologist. And all she said is, Joey, you have to talk about it.
01:00:16
Speaker
Now i don't want to talk about it. You want to talk about everything. But I do want to talk about it. It has helped our marriage a lot. Yeah. Well, along the way, I found my voice. And you know what?
01:00:27
Speaker
It's okay to find your voice and say how you feel. You know, I knew you found your voice. Now, people might be wondering, what's he talking about? Well, I'm very strong-willed, obviously. I'm a real macho male, you know, blah blah, blah. And I used to try to talk to you and tell you and boss you around or whatever, you know, just like, I'm the man, you know. And the one time you got a stool. Yeah, I got on top of the stool. stood on the stool. And you were taller than me, and I'm looking up to and you're like, you can't.
01:00:58
Speaker
I found my voice. Stop being a big bully. Yeah. And I was like, this is funny, but it's true. Yeah. If anybody's listening, find a big stool and get taller than the in the room. She got taller than me. I'm looking it up. I'm like.
01:01:11
Speaker
That's right. That was a very good illustration. It definitely changed me. Definitely changed me. But it's important that, you know what? I never had my voice. I just, it got taken from me early on in life.
01:01:22
Speaker
Fear had replaced it. and And you know what? It's freeing. It's freeing to be free and find your voice and and just ah allow God to use you in the capacity that he wants to use you.
01:01:33
Speaker
So, gosh, these latter years have been so much better than the former. You guys got anything? Any questions you have or anything? Any comments? ah Sure. You know what? I'll jump in real quick. um So I think, I mean, I gather from this conversation that both of you would be big proponents for people who need it, like good God-centered counselors.
01:01:53
Speaker
Right. But like what would you say to people who are Bible-believing Christians, who love God, who love his word and all that? Because I have been around lots of people who... I don't want i want to say they could use counseling, but but i mean it's clear that they have some things that they want to work through. and I think that happens to everybody. But um you know their my mentality is, oh, I can't go to counseling. I can't go to therapy. I don't need i don't need that. i have Jesus.
01:02:17
Speaker
Right. Like Jesus is my one stop solution for all things. But I think that you would have a different take on what God's hand can be in counseling. So what what would you say to those people who fuck kind of feel afraid to open up to another human being? And they say, no, no, God got me. God got me. And then that stuff just becomes, you know, resentment. i believe Let me go first, because I know we're going to have a different thought on this.
01:02:38
Speaker
My first one, because I want to just go from the spiritual side of God uses people. To help. Like we ask God for help. He uses people. People are the greatest resource.
01:02:51
Speaker
And in James 5.16, it says, confess your sins, confess your situations, confess your shortcomings, confess your hurts, basically, that's what the word means, to one another, and then you will be healed. It doesn't even say confess to God. It says confess to one another.
01:03:08
Speaker
Because the hurt, the things that you have inside that hurt, that are on your mind, that hurt, these things that need to be healed, the way to do it is to talk about it because once you put it out there, it doesn't have control over you anymore.
01:03:22
Speaker
Mm-hmm. or the lies that you hear in your head when you share it with someone who loves you will say to you, that's not true. Why do you think you're ugly? Why do you think you're not smart? Why do you think you'll never be able to do this? Or why are you thinking that? Why are you down on yourself?
01:03:37
Speaker
No, you you're talented. God loves you. He's got a great plan for you. So counseling, in a sense, is just relationship, you know? And you need godly relationships. But go ahead.
01:03:48
Speaker
Well, I know this, that I didn't think I needed to go to a counselor and talk to anybody about anything because I had found Jesus and I have Jesus and I'm good and I'm okay.
01:04:01
Speaker
Clearly, that was a wrong way of thinking because clearly i was a complete mess and it wasn't until the rubber... met the road and I was in a dire desperate situation and it forced me to go to counseling that I understood um just the the healing that comes through all that talking and that confessing and that counseling. But I didn't know that going in and i that was revealed to me coming out. And then even just recently,
01:04:36
Speaker
A couple years ago, um we were introduced to these wonderful counselors and you had gone to see this deliverance counselor and you had come back and said, oh my gosh, you have to go.
01:04:52
Speaker
this is This was an amazing experience. And even then, this is a good year or so ago, I said, no, no, I'm good. I've got Jesus. I went through my counseling. I found my voice. I'm good.
01:05:05
Speaker
So still somewhere inside of me, it's pride, really, that said, I don't really need. I don't really need to do any more than what I've been doing. And something happened, and I realized that I still need healing.
01:05:22
Speaker
Like I am not completely 100% whole. i need healing. And I had gone to this deliverance counselor. And for four hours, four out of the five hours, I just cried.
01:05:34
Speaker
I just wept. And I'm thinking, how is this still in me? Where is this all coming from? And when I look back on it, that was a year ago, that was God providing more healing from my heart.
The Gift of Counseling and Self-Improvement
01:05:50
Speaker
So really, I sit here and I go like this, I go, everyone needs counseling. Everyone needs someone they can talk to. Everyone needs an opportunity to get the stuff out that's still lingering, that's still that you don't even know is still there.
01:06:04
Speaker
I mean, the thing is, as a pastor and we have this huge church now and there's, there's some situations I go, that's higher than my bravery. Like that's going to take intense counseling. There's situations that you need professional people that this is what they do, but they're, you know, they're gifted by God to do it.
01:06:24
Speaker
It's just like, You know, I have Jesus, you know, in my, you know, ah there's a short circuit in my electricity. I don't go to the, you know, the the wires and hold them together and say, Jesus, help me do this. I call an electrician if it's above my pay grade. Yeah. So that's my answer, you know, and and God makes counselors. Yeah. And you know what? Would I say that not everyone needs counseling? Yeah.
01:06:49
Speaker
I would say that. But then I would also say this, but why not treat yourself? Why not? I mean, everyone doesn't need counseling, but you know, but boy, does it i really benefit your life. I'm somebody that shares everything. I'll say anything from the pulpit. I'll tell anybody anything, but that deliverance thing helped me. I mean, it was just, it was a different thing.
01:07:09
Speaker
It was, you know, it was just talking. It was just, yeah you know, and having somebody pray for you that doesn't know you, which is sometimes yeah really cool because you know, when you praying with people that, you know, it can get emotional, you know, things when somebody doesn't know you, they they can really just pray at that thing. They can just attack the situation. So, uh, and you know, the kind Christian warrior to do that for you. It's great. Oh my goodness. Yeah. All right. We're going to wrap it unless anybody has another question. We're going to wrap it, but what was, what would be three things? Now you, how are you now?
01:07:43
Speaker
Oh, I'm so much better. Am I completely healed? Probably not. But I thank God every day. Has it been an upgrade? Oh, yes. Yes, yes. Thank you, God. So what are the a couple of keys that you would say to people that are listening as to how to upgrade your life from where you are right now?
Support Systems and Faith
01:08:03
Speaker
Make sure that you have a great support system. Make sure that you have people you can talk to. um A lot of times problems arise when you're isolated alone, you have got no one to talk to.
01:08:15
Speaker
So it's so important to have a good support system. You know, um a great spouse, great family, great friends, great church. um I've got the best friends on earth because you know what? They know and love Jesus and they've been a blessing in my life.
01:08:30
Speaker
And of course I've got the best husband in the world. You can expound on that. note ah And the best six kids. Yeah. ah And you know what? um Just stay close to Jesus.
01:08:45
Speaker
And I know that as I stay close to him and I trust him, i have peace and I have joy. and And he renews my hope day by day.
01:08:58
Speaker
And i think... If you really want three things, I think one of the most important things to do is give grace upon grace upon grace.
01:09:10
Speaker
um Not to the people just all around you, but to yourself as well. And I give myself a lot of grace. I don't beat myself up anymore. I realized that I'm just human. God loves me. He loves me in this moment as much as he could possibly ever love me.
01:09:25
Speaker
And there's nothing I could do to earn his love more than I have it right now. And it's very freeing. You're amazing. Listen, if you're listening or watching this, you really want to upgrade your life.
01:09:37
Speaker
It starts with putting your faith and trust in Jesus Christ. He really was the son of God. That's why they put him on a cross. But that was his plan from the beginning to die for our sins. Because we've all messed up.
01:09:53
Speaker
And the greatest upgrade we had in our lives for sure is the day that we trusted him yeah as our Lord and savior. You could do that by saying a prayer, just like father, I've really messed up. And I know that Jesus, your son died for me and I want to put my faith in him today.
01:10:12
Speaker
and then I'm just believe it, you know, because God raised Jesus from the dead and he will raise you to a new life. And he has raised us to a new life. And then what he does is he fills you with his Holy spirit.
01:10:25
Speaker
Yes. Jesus said, after he rose again, he told his followers, those that believed in me said, I'm leaving, but I'm going to send the Holy spirit to come and live inside of you.
01:10:36
Speaker
So the Holy spirit just reminds us of who Jesus is and who God is. And, and, uh, You know, this is the way you live the upgraded life.
01:10:47
Speaker
I mean, it doesn't mean going to perfect. There's going to be ups and downs, but it's only up from here. And one day it'll be up all the way.
Family Size and Blessings
01:10:54
Speaker
So we love you all. And I got a question. we got a question. Love it. Come on. close Where's this from chat? GBT or from? Well, all right. So mom, you have six kids, right? ahh I got one brother and four sisters. Yep.
01:11:12
Speaker
I've noticed just with my friend group and I've heard it been, you know, talked about a lot with millennials. I just looked on chat. Chat's not always correct. So take it with a grain of salt. But it says, yes, across the developed ah developed world, millennials are having fewer children than previous generations. And I even heard something. i don't know if this is true, but Gen Z might be having more kids than millennials, actually. But you had six and that's pretty rare.
01:11:38
Speaker
um Even for your generation, that's a lot. What are your thoughts around it? Like, do you think people should have two if they have a boy and a girl stop? You think four is a good number with six too many and you'd stop people from having too many? Like, what's your advice on that? You had six kids, you came from a broken family, and yet you still decided to like have a huge family. This question is coming from someone that has three kids, so.
01:12:03
Speaker
Yeah. He's probably going to have six soon. Maybe seven. Maybe four. Four sounds good. good Well, I know this. that the and And when we got married, um Daddy said, he goes, we're going to start a family, right? And I go, heck no. I want a lot of kids. You wanted a lot of kids, but I was making money. And I was like, oh, no, we're not starting a family. I'm making money. Because in my mind, I had grown up poor and I wanted money. That was the most important thing.
01:12:30
Speaker
But the moment I had Alexandra and I held her in my arms, i I remember just crying, going, thank you, God, for this beautiful baby. And in that moment, God turned my heart completely around said, And and it wasn't even an issue. It was like, boom, 19 months later, Victoria came.
01:12:49
Speaker
Boom, 19 months later, Jacqueline came. Boom, 19 months later, you came. oh And then and then Metta was there and then she left and then the twins came. So but you know what I would tell everybody, just have as many as you could possibly stand because it'll be the greatest blessing in your life.
01:13:08
Speaker
We got 11 grandkids right now. It's just beautiful. It's the greatest. We get see them when we want. life is beautiful. Life is beautiful. It is. You know? And God uses lives for his glory. The upgrade is just more people.
01:13:23
Speaker
Yeah. God's about people. We're about people. yeah I have some more kids, son. Yeah. You can have seven. You could be the winner. Steve will have seven.
01:13:34
Speaker
ah God forbid the Lord come before them. Remember, the upgrade starts with put your faith and trust in Jesus Christ. We love you.
01:13:44
Speaker
Take care. God bless.