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We Survived a Cult | Pr. John & Susan Bevilacqua | The Upgrade w Joe Adevai #003
98 Plays3 months ago
Pastor Joe and Alicia sit down with two of their closest friends and earliest mentors in the faith, Pastor John and Susan Bevilacqua. Susan shares her story of growing up with an alcoholic mother, being kidnapped and raped as a teenager, and finding Jesus in a hippie storefront in Baltimore. John opens up about nearly dying three times before age 22, dealing drugs at Villanova, and getting radically saved at 3 AM in a run-down house with no furniture. What brought them together? A cult called the Church of Bible Understanding, where they spent nearly a decade living in lofts, working at Burger King, giving away every paycheck, and witnessing on the streets of Alphabet City. They eventually broke free, got married within a month, and never looked back on God, only on the cult. Now 36 years of friendship later, they share how faithfulness, real community, and refusing to let shame win have carried them through it all. If you've ever felt like your view of God was distorted, this one's for you.
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Transcript
Leaving a Cult and Finding True Faith
00:00:00
Speaker
Our view of God was so messed up. Well, it was distorted. It was very distorted. It was works-based. And you know what? Amazingly, so many people leave these cults, and that's it. They leave God forever.
00:00:10
Speaker
But you guys decided that you weren't going to leave God. You were just going to leave the cult and find the right God. That's right. It's amazing. And when we got married, I felt like I got out of jail. It was like when I was like up at that altar, I was like, wow, we're out of jail now.
00:00:27
Speaker
This is beautiful.
00:00:30
Speaker
This episode will feature some discussions of sexual assault and trauma. So please listen with care.
Journey from Troubled Childhood to Faith
00:00:37
Speaker
Welcome to the upgrade. It's only up from here.
00:00:41
Speaker
Pastor Joe here, my beautiful wife, our women's pastor at Grace Church, Pastor Alicia. I'll tell you why I call her our woman's pastor in another episode, but we have some amazing people with us today. Special guests.
00:00:55
Speaker
People that, when we first got saved, are the first real friends we ever had in the Lord. And Pastor John, who is a pastor at our church, has been a mentor to me and his amazing wife, Susan.
00:01:07
Speaker
um We are just so glad to have you guys here today. Wow. Well, it's going to be a lot of fun. Thanks for having us. It's definitely going to be a lot of fun That's right. That's right. Just some quick background. When we first got saved, we went to a church called Christ Community Church. was the first real church that we got involved. It wasn't the first one. It wasn't a church, actually. It was a living room. Yeah.
00:01:31
Speaker
And Pastor John at that time, he wasn't a pastor, but he was still a great, great man of God. And his wife were there. And there was about eight of us. And he was playing the the piano. We were worshiping. It was our first ex experience with church. And together, we were part of this church going from 10 to like 400 people over the next ten about 10 years. But I just want to give you guys a chance to talk a little bit about yourself, like where you grew up.
00:01:57
Speaker
some stuff, you know, like about your life, because no one knows anything about you right now, but they're about to. Okay. I grew up in California in Las Vegas, and I had a very dysfunctional family, single mom, and I was always pretty lost in life.
00:02:18
Speaker
So my mother sent me out to live with my father when I was 17 in Baltimore. And Oh. And I started getting grounded. And then all of a sudden, of my friend asked me to come down to the storefront.
00:02:33
Speaker
And she said they believe in Jesus. So we all hopped into a little Volkswagen. And we went down. It was all hippies in a storefront in Baltimore.
00:02:43
Speaker
And um they asked me if I was born again. And I said, no. So they gave me the prayer. i got saved. I was dramatically changed. Went home, told my family. Wait
Healing from Trauma through Faith
00:02:57
Speaker
second.
00:02:57
Speaker
Did you grow up rich, poor? Yeah. We were pretty poor with my mom, but my father was pretty well-to-do. Okay. like So you went from this poor place to we lived out like on a ranch and we just kind of just existed as kids we just had gardens and animals and we were just loners and my father couldn't find us. My mother actually hid us from my father. So we were always moving and she was very she was a drinker, she was alcoholic.
00:03:32
Speaker
So I was always lost deep inside. So when I came to my father to live, um it was like, wow, this is great. I felt loved. I felt good.
00:03:46
Speaker
And I got born again the next year. Oh, wait, will you said something about getting grounded. I want to hear a little bit about that. Well, I started going to school. He
Pastor John's Wild Past and Spiritual Awakening
00:03:54
Speaker
was trying to get me ready for college.
00:03:57
Speaker
He was giving me like a family life. He was really making sure I was taken care of. And I wasn't used to that. I wasn't used to. did you get in trouble? You got in trouble though a little bit?
00:04:09
Speaker
ah When I was out west, I did. I got mixed up. um you know I got into some serious car accidents. I got raped. I got seriously um um broken down as a young teenager and nobody knew.
00:04:28
Speaker
So I had a lot of baggage inside. And I just learned how to just keep pressing through. And I was always looking for... something in life, I didn't know what it was. And then when I got saved, it was like, this is it.
00:04:43
Speaker
And I immediately got right connected into this forever family group. And my father was so angry at me. He was like, this is wrong. This is a cult. You can't do this.
00:04:56
Speaker
And we were really growing like we were in high school. There was about 15 of us. We were like witnessing. We had people coming down. We had a Christian group in school. We were always in the principal's office. We were just on fire for God. It was just that time. it was just I felt like, wow, I found it. This is what I'm looking a missing piece. Yeah.
00:05:20
Speaker
Now, i know it's difficult. You said you went lost over something pretty quick. That's pretty serious. Oh, what what happened to me? Yes. Yeah. Very um back back in the 70s, everybody hitchhiked. It was just the normal thing. You just were like, let's go out. Let's.
00:05:37
Speaker
you know So my friend and I were like, oh, we got to get home. Let's get a ride. And then we hitchhiked and this guy just took us way up in the mountains, took us way way up in the desert. And I thought he was going to drive off a cliff. I thought we were going to die.
00:05:55
Speaker
So that's when I kind of really reached out to God in my heart. I said, God, please help me. I prayed. I was in the back seat. And then you know was he armed or?
00:06:06
Speaker
Oh, yeah, he put a gun in my stomach. Yeah, he made me take off all my clothes. He was sickening. He was evil. And you were with a friend. Yeah, she was tied up. She was throwing up.
00:06:19
Speaker
um We were so... We were just like... All I could do was pray. When you're in that situation, you're praying, you're praying, you're like, God, help me. And then he ah he said, ah I'll take you back, but if you tell anybody, I'm going to kill you.
00:06:36
Speaker
So we went back home. I didn't tell anybody. didn't tell anybody at all. So that's when I was really getting messed up and inwardly. And my mother's like, you got to go live with your father. And how old are you at this point? 15. 15. 15, I would say.
00:06:55
Speaker
yeah Yeah. And then you left your mom. and And how many other siblings did you have? i had a brother and two sisters. And she was like, you're you're too messed up. You got to get out of here.
00:07:06
Speaker
So I went. You never told her? No. Wow. No, no, not until I was like maybe in my thirties, you know, how notton yeah no, no.
00:07:18
Speaker
yeah So that's when I really knew God was with me and I knew that he really came through and in those strange ways, you know, and only God brings you through something like that because it looks like, you know, before we go any further, there could be women or men that are listening right now and you both have been through this and Wow.
00:07:41
Speaker
What would you say to someone that maybe went through something similar that got abused or raped or
Building Relationships through Faith
00:07:46
Speaker
something like that? What should they immediately? First of all, they need to go for help and talk to somebody.
00:07:54
Speaker
like whether somebody Now there's so many resources. Like back then, you know it was so different. They didn't have all these resources.
00:08:04
Speaker
And people weren't talking about it. And it was a hush-hush secret thing. everything was just pretty wild and free. You know, that air. Yeah. We were in that air of, like, the hippies. And everybody was, like, even when we got saved, we were all, like, you know, this is amazing. We're living together. there's so This is beautiful. Yeah.
00:08:27
Speaker
Right? We were like so happy. like But I know this, if there is someone listening yeah that has been in this situation, um i know now that the first thing you should do is go to someone and tell someone.
Community Growth and Challenges in Faith
00:08:42
Speaker
Tell someone, open up, get it out. Because I know like you, i i kept it in my heart and I didn't tell anybody that I was being sexually abused by my stepfather for many, many years.
00:08:55
Speaker
And it really took a toll on me. And now I would tell anyone, open your mouth, say something, do not keep it in because it can only harm you in the end. Oh, Oh, yeah, the depths of shame is so deep in that area.
00:09:10
Speaker
And without God and help, you're just in this like to know limbo deep yeah hole of shame. That's really what overcomes you. And it did. It affected you so much so that your mother, not even knowing, was like something's wrong with you. You need to go live with your dad, yeah who she didn't even like because and because she loved you so much she needed that you needed help.
00:09:32
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Let's go to Pastor John a little bit about your upbringing and all that kind of stuff. Come from a family of five children, four boys and one girl.
00:09:43
Speaker
My parents were middle class, uh, hardworking dad, not around that much, but, uh, um very loving and very nurturing mom.
00:09:56
Speaker
You know, she took care of everybody, led the way. um We lived in the city for the first 11 years of my life. And that was somewhat sheltered because it was a city.
00:10:09
Speaker
What city is that? I was raised in Newark. So the racial tension, was really escalating in Newark. The neighborhood got extremely bad. i was jumped twice um in Newark, started hanging out with the wrong crowd.
00:10:27
Speaker
um My mom found someone who was a piano teacher and needed a some source of um energy for me.
00:10:41
Speaker
So she hooked me up with this young lady who was a ah Chinese exchange student who studied at Juilliard in New York City, very, very top-shelf school.
00:10:52
Speaker
And she started teaching me piano at a very young age. So I started gravitation learning. gravitating towards that and then what happened was the day came we moved out of Newark and made our way to the suburbs and um it was in the suburbs that I really started living a double life in other words was going to Catholic school I was acting one way on the outside but it was a totally different individual behind the scenes I tried to push the envelope in everything I did.
00:11:25
Speaker
i was wild. It was drinking and drugs, you know. um Even though I had the appearance of being like a Catholic grammar school boy, i was really living on the wild side.
00:11:41
Speaker
And then the crowd that I hung with did so also. Then, um you know, life progressed. I got more interested in the music. And next thing I know, i'm in a band at a very young age, freshman in high school.
00:11:57
Speaker
The band started to gel. And I found my, quote, first love for music. And the band started taking off locally and even any ah sort of on a regional level.
00:12:10
Speaker
So I figured that I was going to be a musician. for the- Rockstar? Rockstar? Yeah. who You know, for young kids, we were making quite a bit of money. um And we were playing all the time, every weekend.
00:12:23
Speaker
And your high school had a lot of big time rock bands come Yeah, the high school had some major acts. Where was this? Where did you grow up? I grew in Scotch Plains, which is Union County, San Bernardino. There was a bunch of us in the student council that had some input with the priests and the brothers that ran the place. Hey, priests, can we have Black Sabbath? Yeah.
00:12:48
Speaker
Yeah, one thing... They... You know, what happened was they didn't know anything about um hiring a band of that notoriety, you know, or the potential for it. But a bunch of us were musicians already in local bands.
00:13:07
Speaker
We convinced them that it was a win. And in fact, it turned out to be a very big win because what happened was all the bands that we hooked were very top shelf acts. We booked them in advance and the school made a fortune. Can you drop some names for us, some band names? Yeah, we went and saw At My High School, The Who, and Cream, Vanilla Fudge, Chicago, Blood, Sweat, and Tears. Oh, my gosh.
00:13:30
Speaker
Black Sabbath. paid to get in those concerts. Yeah, Black Sabbath. It just went to Catholic school. Yeah. Steppenwolf, The Association. Oh, my gosh. Loving Spoonful.
00:13:42
Speaker
Yeah. So, um, but again, you know, with the music scene came the drug scene and the drinking
Rebuilding and Strengthening Faith
00:13:51
Speaker
scene, you know, so hand andan exactly. So my,
00:13:56
Speaker
I wasn't necessarily a stupid individual in high school, but I would definitely not motivate it towards academics. And the more I pushed the envelope, um what happened was the more um I got into serious predicaments. I almost was killed three times seriously before Jesus saved me.
00:14:18
Speaker
Yeah. I had a ah motorcycle accident with a friend of mine, which we, I was on psilocybin. I didn't even know what happened when I hit the mountain.
00:14:30
Speaker
I put a hole in my foot, and didn't realize it until about 14 hours later. And then they sent me to the hospital. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And then there was a situation where we were parting very heavy at a um junior prom I was invited to by this young lady.
00:14:49
Speaker
I was a senior. She was a junior. And we didn't get along. I was acting really wrong, really bad. So I decided to take the trip down the shore as is, you know, the usual habit for people after those proms. Everybody heading, roaring to the shore. Yeah.
00:15:07
Speaker
The fellow that I was with and his girlfriend, I was in the back. He fell asleep and he hit the guardrail at 80 miles an hour and the car flipped up in the air.
00:15:19
Speaker
went down an embankment, split in two, gasoline all over. um we were all banged up, but the state troopers came down, shaking his head. He goes, I don't know who you people are, but somebody up there is looking out for you. You should be dead. You should be dead. Yes, he said, we see accidents here all the time, in the and the degree of your accident is nowhere near where we've seen people lose their lives.
00:15:45
Speaker
Wow. One more year later, um my very first job as a college freshman in the in the summer, I went to work for a company that my dad worked for and it was in a what would amount to like a bread truck or a UPS truck.
00:16:03
Speaker
where they have a step in and before you get in. And um we were driving in Linden, and um I was in that little wheel well there, um just talking to the gentleman who was driving, who I was his helper for the summer.
00:16:19
Speaker
And um I happened to look in the back of the truck um and I saw some stuff moving around. kind of caught my attention. It was clothing that we were delivering. So I stepped up into the back of the truck.
00:16:35
Speaker
And then when I was about to get back down into the wheel well where I was initially standing, We got hit by a tractor trailing, hauling steel at 40 miles an hour.
00:16:47
Speaker
And what happened was it totally destroyed the truck. I would have been in that wheel well. That would have been it. Yeah. Wow. where that Where that truck came in and flipped the truck. The gentleman who was driving was pretty banged up.
00:17:02
Speaker
my All my ribs were busted and i was pretty banged up for a while, but... So it was like, wow, um just relentless. Of course, just like human nature, God does something in your life.
00:17:19
Speaker
You hear um his voice saying, you know what? you You better straighten up and fly right. But I didn't, you know, I would go back to being wild. yeah Party and drugs, rock and roll, everything that went with it.
00:17:36
Speaker
Because even when we hear, we don't listen. Exactly. So this time you're going to college, you went to Villanova. Yes. I know. went to Villanova, yeah. When Villanova plays basketball or any Villanova players are in the pros, we know all about it. Try and follow him.
00:17:55
Speaker
I went to Villanova and I was an athlete there. I tried to straighten my life out, even though my aspirations was always still to be a musician.
00:18:05
Speaker
My folks said, that's not really happening for you because we have enough relatives that are starving as musicians. it's not going to pay the bills. Yeah. You know, what you need to do is get an education. Whatever you do after that is your business, but you're going to get an education.
00:18:22
Speaker
And it went hand in hand with the fact that they gave me an opportunity to play sports there. So I played sports and did that for a while. Lost interest in both.
00:18:33
Speaker
Lost interest in sports, lost interest in education, academics got into drugs again real heavy now i was dealing drugs now i was doing drugs um it was the same pattern just a different venue it wasn't no longer music it was the college life partying all the time um all the people unfortunately that i hung with did the exact same things and I came from a middle class, but many of the guys that I lived with in a fraternity kind of an atmosphere came from very wealthy families, and therefore they had the resources to spend money all the time. Villanova.
00:19:18
Speaker
ah Exactly. And then what happened was um I got just more and more depressed deeper and deeper in a hole. My grades continually failed.
00:19:31
Speaker
I quit playing athletics um and I became, you know, um almost like a recluse. Didn't make it to classes.
00:19:42
Speaker
um You're going downhill. Really? Yeah. I was probably depressed. Yeah. I was probably suffering depression. Yes. um Something happened. Senior year.
00:19:54
Speaker
the dean of the commerce and finance school in which I was enrolled calls me into his office and says, Mr. Bevilacqua, he goes, you will have been the very first senior to have been expelled from this university for failing to maintain your grades unless you get your act together.
00:20:21
Speaker
Yeah. And here I was, I mean, it was getting ready to graduate. I didn't have the grades and it was because i was a mess. I was doing drugs, living the lifestyle, neglecting all my responsibilities.
00:20:38
Speaker
Um, I felt terrible for my parents because they were underwriting everything that I was doing, but I had a brisk drug business with some other people, uh, in order to be able to support my habit and,
00:20:51
Speaker
um It was terrible, really. And um he said, in order for you to get out of here, you're going to have to change your major, make it easier, take everything that you've accomplished so far and put it towards an easier major to get out of here.
00:21:10
Speaker
um So that's what I did. And all the guys that I had lived with, partied with, um and became friends with and you know where my posse they all graduated before me i had a continue in school and um they all left without leaving me a forwarding address a phone number guys that i had spent three or four years with yeah so it was a another wake-up call Yeah, because they weren't really your friends. No, the story's about to get good because somehow all of this brought you two together. So tell us a little bit about that.
00:21:47
Speaker
I came home from school after graduating in the summer. um And what happened was i was determined to pursue music, hooked up with a friend of mine that I had done music with. He had graduated from a music school.
00:22:02
Speaker
um We decided to go to the mall and pick up some albums that I was interested in and we made our way over there. As the store closed and we were leaving,
00:22:16
Speaker
Um, what happened was there was a bunch of folks, probably about four or five that were, um, outside the store with Bibles and they were talking to people. Now this was an era, you know, that you could actually do that without getting removed from the mall by the What time was this? The seventies? When was it Yeah, 1974. It was August.
00:22:39
Speaker
and um Really, i had no exposure to the gospel, even as a Catholic. I was not interested. i I did terrible in all the Catholic classes and the religious class. It's not what I was into at all.
00:22:54
Speaker
Like I said, I was living a double life. um So in short order, um they came to us and started talking us about Jesus and this thing called the new birth.
00:23:05
Speaker
So I said, in my arrogant way, I said, listen, buddy, you can't tell me anything about it. about God and the Bible. i I went to a Catholic grammar school. I went to a prep school. I just graduated from a ah Catholic university, you know, so I got it.
00:23:20
Speaker
Thank you very much. And my good friend, Paul, he said, well, wait a second. He goes, maybe they have something here. Little did I know that when he was in college, he had come to salvation and gotten saved, but he had backslid.
00:23:36
Speaker
Uh-huh. And what happened was we ended our conversation with them. The mall was closing. We went to the security guard and said, listen, we got to get out of here, especially with these Jesus people here.
00:23:50
Speaker
We really need to leave. we need an escape route. Right. We need an escape route out of here. And he said, well, there is one exit door that you can go. It's down on the other side of the mall. was like, oh.
00:24:02
Speaker
I was so aggravated because it's not the entrance that we came in. I'd have to walk all the way around the building to get to where we had parked. And Paul and I made our way out there.
00:24:12
Speaker
And lo and behold, who was there at that doorway? But the Jesus freaks again. And I mean... They were legitimate Jesus freaks. The guys had hair down to um they're the back of their hair was to the belt line.
00:24:30
Speaker
ah They had beards. um The girls looked thin and scraggly. um Nice people. yeah you know, they... They were nice people, but they looked like they had been eating donuts for the two weeks.
00:24:45
Speaker
So long story short, they invited to their home. um And Paul convinced And you go. i I was not going to go, but I was driving, but Paul insisted that we go. Okay.
00:24:58
Speaker
Little did I know until we got to that house, which was so dysfunctional. That is another, that's a story for another time. They didn't have a key to get in the front door. So there was like a missing piece of glass.
00:25:15
Speaker
In the front door. And they would just stick their hand in and open the door. There was no furniture. None. There were just milk crates. Some sleeping bags. the The place was disheveled. It it was the Manson house.
00:25:29
Speaker
um And I was like, oh, man, I'm out here. pama Come on, Paul. We got to get out of here. And um something kept Paul there more so than me at that point.
00:25:40
Speaker
And then he just kind of broke down in his attitude and said, listen, I'm backslidden. And they knew what that term was. So they threw two terms at me that I was a fish out of water.
00:25:53
Speaker
born again and backslidden. So I knew nothing of those terms. I knew nothing of anybody who was anybody an evangelist at that time. Billy Graham, I couldn't, you know, the only Billy Graham I knew was the one that had, you know, the ah Fillmore East and the Fillmore West, you know.
00:26:12
Speaker
So um one thing led to another, and we were there with him about four and a half hours, and I finally broke down and got saved. He said the sinner's prayer.
00:26:23
Speaker
Wow. You know, when you say you're John you had a friend, Paul, if you have a friend named George Ringo, this show is going to take another turn right now. We'll have a whole new set questions.
00:26:35
Speaker
So at some point there, yeah something happened in the middle of that night. Well, yeah, I got saved about 3 o'clock in the morning. um And ah my salvation was really radical because I felt, in addition to being depressed, I felt always the weight of guilt of doing the things that I had done wrong. And I had, you know, whole encyclopedia full of it.
00:27:03
Speaker
um So... When I got saved, I woke up the next morning. I felt that the burden of sin had been removed from my spirit. I had a emotional, physical um release that God did for me specifically. Supernaturally, yeah. And I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt. Yeah. So um that was really what was the impetus for me to be so enthusiastic and short-term about Jesus because it was like an experience. Like if if you can imagine Jesus,
00:27:46
Speaker
you had a miracle done to you, like you were missing a finger or thumb or a limb, and all of a sudden, boom, you have that as a result of Jesus' is healing power. You can only bear witness to it in the most excited way. And so that's what happened. So where this radical change propel you to? Yes, the radical change.
00:28:08
Speaker
um All my friends that I was hanging out with came, and they they couldn't understand it. I mean, they verbally said, We saw you Thursday night, we were all partying, smoking pot, we're doing cocaine.
00:28:23
Speaker
You go away on a Friday, this is Saturday morning, you're here reading the Bible. You seem like someone one else. What did you do? What did you take? what It was that radical, even my countenance had changed.
00:28:37
Speaker
So I just had my little good news for modern man, that's the Bible that they gave me. It was in modern English and I just started talking him, i said, I can't tell you what happened, but I know that I prayed to Jesus and now I feel different and I'm satisfied and you know, I'm not going to go hang out with you guys and smoke. I'm sorry. I'm just, and how old are you at this point? I was 22. Woke up totally different. Totally radically different.
00:29:08
Speaker
I was the same as you. Woke up totally different. Totally different. I had i had a major yeah heart change. yeah I still need to wake up. Don't worry, we're Give me the sinner's prayer at the end of this. Is it about the same year that this is happening to you? Yes, had you guys meet this point. I got saved before he did.
00:29:30
Speaker
Okay. I was in time, but you didn't know each other. I mean, no, no. So I was actually upstairs when you got saved. Isn't that I was in that house. You were in that house. Yeah. I was upstairs. you got saved and you joined a church.
00:29:44
Speaker
I got saved and I actually ran away to it. Okay. Okay. it's It's a really long story, but I actually... You can make it quick. I actually... My father was going to put me away because he said that it was a cult and it was...
00:30:01
Speaker
See, everything happening happening in the 70s, the children of God were coming out. the The Kool-Aid person, who was that? Jim Jones. the gym That was going on.
00:30:12
Speaker
All these cults were happening at the same time. So my father was like, oh, no, we're going to put you. He was going to put me away. So I was like, ran. But you weren't drinking Kool-Aid. You guys were following Jesus. No, we were just. I just snuck out of the house, people got on the highway.
00:30:29
Speaker
Went to New York City, hitchhiked all the way to the city, got on a train. I didn't know where I was. went to the Lower East Side. By yourself? By myself.
00:30:40
Speaker
um But to be with this group of believers. Yeah, i was 17. Did you graduate high school? Well, I didn't think I did for years and years.
00:30:51
Speaker
No, I just left. It was at the end it was like two months before graduation. But my friend who works for the board of ed found out that I actually did. you had enough credits. Yeah. I was like, thank you, Lord. So um I moved in and he he got saved and you were in our fellowship down in the Lower East Side. Well, right that's when you you need to connect the dots there. I was living for a short time in Plainfield, New Jersey. might See, I didn't know you then yeah at that time. No.
00:31:25
Speaker
My folks lived in Scotch Plains, which is the next town. And there was a lot of pressure, peer pressure. And the people in the organization recognized the peer pressure and they said, listen,
00:31:37
Speaker
why don't you consider moving out of the area if you really want to grow in your faith? And I said, yeah. says, I'm not doing anything else. So I moved to New York City in the Lower East Side, which Susan was living there. And that was, I lived in a very wealthy section of Pennsylvania during my college years, very wealthy.
00:32:04
Speaker
And now I was in the shooting gallery, which was... Extreme opposite. It's horrible. Eighth Street ah between C and D. We had a freestanding three-family brick building.
00:32:16
Speaker
We had no buildings house. On either side of us, we had fires every night. We would see people in you know shooting up heroin from our our windows in the buildings next door.
00:32:32
Speaker
ah The gangs were roaming the streets. Was this considered Harlem? Yeah. No, it's Hell's Kitchen. Kids, here's a history lesson, kids. Here's a history lesson. In the 70s, New York was not a safe place. Alphabet City. Oh, Alphabet City. Alphabet City. I know, believe me, yeah this was not a safe place, New York City. they Until the 80s, New York City was horrible. 42nd Street was a... Demolition zone. It was a...
00:33:00
Speaker
Triple X Road and Alphabet City was where people went to shoot up heroin. People are shooting each other. I mean, you couldn't walk down the street at night. you And the only reason you're there is because, what, was affordable? Is that why?
00:33:11
Speaker
it was like to preach the gospel. to preach yeah like They really needed the gospel. were we We used to sit on the roof at night and have Bible studies, and they would see us up there. And all of a sudden a cocktail, one of those things would come up. Molotov. Yeah, would come up. yeah Not your favorite kind of cocktail. I'm telling you, that's the kind of...
00:33:31
Speaker
I was mugged there a few times. Yeah. They tied us up. They took all our stuff. Remember that time? everybody's stuff. So you guys were in this fellowship. It was, the basis of it was to believe in Jesus Christ, to share the gospel. Maybe later on it turned bad because there was a leader that had a bad, you know, cause I've talked to you guys so much about this. Yeah. Yeah. You you know, a cult is when the leader, you know, they just, everything he says, you know, that everybody listens to and eventually you left. But when you went in, you were going to lead people to Christ. Yeah.
00:34:01
Speaker
yeah And you had some serious adventures. what ah We were on fire. We were like the fire Christians. You know what I mean? Right. that was yeah Why don't you qualify that for people when you say on fire? Like just always telling everybody about Jesus, no matter where you were, ah bringing them over, having Bible studies with them, raising them up to be Christians. And you left your lives. Yeah.
00:34:26
Speaker
yeah Like you were a graduate of Illinois, but you were living and your dad was a rich dad. So you went there and then you had to work. You had to work to support yourselves. we did. That's right. I remember hearing something about Burger King. Yeah, we did work there.
00:34:41
Speaker
And they took what? Most of your money, right? Yeah, you had no money, no food. um It was hardly any clothes. It was just... Bare bones, bare bones. It was...
00:34:51
Speaker
just You were working to support your ministry that you guys were in as well. But what what what's this about Burger King? Well, did you guys, obviously you met at this church. I think we need to back up a little bit. We met in the fellowship and we were always very good at witnessing together.
00:35:07
Speaker
Right. They always put us together. Really? All the time. Because little chemistry. yeah that Did that bother you? We were always like. Were you upset when they Right. We were always together. Right. There wasn't really any chemistry early, early on. no No, not in the beginning.
00:35:26
Speaker
There really wasn't a lot of chemistry between the guys and the girls in the groups regardless because it was kind of taboo. Yeah. um It was an unwritten yeah um a mandate yeah from the course leader. Of course. They frowned upon it. Well, it makes yeah sense. i mean yeah know you were yeah Yeah. You were like, ah when you look at it, 100% spiritual. Yeah. No time for the flesh. yes Susan, you have to go witness with John Bevilacqua today again. And she was like, rats. No, we were always very good together. Yeah, we compliment each other.
00:36:00
Speaker
We were always leading people. to ah How many? Hundreds. Hundreds we used to. like like we just You weren't looking at him like, oh, he's kind of. No, I did one day look at him going, I really like him. oh I did.
00:36:13
Speaker
i I did really like you and I felt like we were going to be together. i did. Do you have that feeling? You know what? Not until later. She had Villanova vibe. but did feel that way. I did like look at you and go,
00:36:29
Speaker
And I was so insecure as a person in my whole life. It was like, you know, I felt very secure with you. like very Like, I never had that from anybody. This is getting deep.
00:36:42
Speaker
Let me just qualify. Please qualify. Well, the truth Out of an organization of about, at that time, there's probably about 500 kids, young guys and girls. i was the only college graduate. Oh, my gosh.
00:36:59
Speaker
So everybody was either, you know, joined the group right out of high school or never made it through high school or maybe attempted to start college and after they got saved, they decided that they didn't want to continue, whatever.
00:37:17
Speaker
So... um There was, ah you know, I guess a degree of maturity on my part. one Right. So the group leaned on me to do specific types of things that ah needed more legitimacy in the world. Yeah.
00:37:37
Speaker
you know You were a leader. Yeah. And i would I would go and rent buildings. I would go and meet with business owners. I would go because I was a ah little bit more presentable. I didn't have hair down to my yeah back and so forth. A little more responsible. Yeah, exactly. sure So...
00:37:56
Speaker
But nonetheless, ah that's not to diminish any of the... There were some very, very talented brothers and sisters in the church who loved the Lord and had just um great abilities, and they were just shortchanged, unfortunately.
00:38:16
Speaker
um Maybe some of them made use of it as they got older, you know, but... Oh, yes. Some of them are on TV right now. Christian stations. yeah leading Look, a lot of you guys. Amazing. But everybody's life was, we're going to be a New Testament church, which means they had all things in common. So let's move out of our homes. Let's leave our families.
00:38:41
Speaker
Let's pack up these little belongings that we have. but Let's live put all our money together. and That's right. pay our bills, buy food, and all the other balance that we have, we'll put in a common fund so that we can fund the gospel.
00:38:58
Speaker
And that's, you know, it was well-meaning after a while. it yeah I was going to say, you know what what' your when you look back on it, what do you think the pros and cons were you know about that Yeah, it it did a lot of people think that way yeah but it didn't lend itself to um mature believing.
00:39:17
Speaker
um Well, because it really was a cult. Exactly. So at the end of the day, yeah. right You forwent people's free will. So there you know when you took someone's hard-earned money you know because everybody else was doing it, I'm sure down deep there was a degree of resentment because...
00:39:36
Speaker
There was disparity in what people made. We had one young lady, I remember, she was a court stenographer in the Supreme Court in the city of New York. her Her income was ridiculous, you know, and she gave in her whole yeah paycheck. Yeah.
00:39:54
Speaker
And the protocol was that if you needed something, if you had a need, let's say she needed a new dress, you know, new shoes, and new undergarments, she would have to approach someone that was a handler of the finances and put in a request for that.
00:40:10
Speaker
And it was embarrassing and um, I used to run one of those and I used to give everybody what they needed. Everybody got it all the time. was ahead of one of those. Good. I'm like, you get this, you get ah everybody got it. I got it. Everyone's just giving everything they have. And just, I would be angry. Honestly, I would be resentful and angry. You're absolutely right. some So some folks were, and therefore, you know, I'm sure those are the ones that left. So we need to know how you two ended up married.
00:40:42
Speaker
Yeah. The long and winding road. Well, we just sort of... We developed a relationship. It started really in New York City. That that was the seed.
00:40:56
Speaker
We started liking each other. We were working together at the same restaurant, which was Burger King. Yeah. which This is the famous story, everybody. This is a very famous, famous. This is a little bit of a funny story also because um I have a degree and I'm making exactly French fries.
00:41:18
Speaker
Five bucks an hour, if that, right? From one of the most prestigious universities yeah in the world. But everyone in the fellowship, that was the terminology for the small group, house church fellowship, worked at Burger King. So I yeah followed suit and I went to work at Burger King. We put all our tracks in everybody's bags, yeah right? I applied for a managerial job. I didn't get it, so they gave me the fry station.
00:41:44
Speaker
Um, but I did graduate up to, ah yeah. the whomer Being one of the tellers, you know, i remember our money was always wrong. They used to get on us. We did the, I was crying all the time. And probably you, the money you were embezzling Burger King. sure always wrong What are you doing? Why is it right? I used to like cry and be like, I can't do this. So as one of those people, they're taking the orders.
00:42:14
Speaker
One day, one day, my roommate from college. Isn't that fun? Shows up there. And his first name is Mark. I'm not going to tell you his last name. But he came from very wealthy families. Family was very vested in Sears.
00:42:32
Speaker
Um... a lot of ah lot of money, but Mark was never at school. And I thought Mark was really dumb. you know I love Mark, but we were a great partiers.
00:42:43
Speaker
But he was never at school, but he graduated you know with everybody else. But he was always out. He was either in Europe or he was, you know, Ruba. Enjoying his life. He was.
00:42:57
Speaker
And he shows up at Burger King, At my counter one day in a three piece with a little leather bag and his mouth. It dropped. It was like crying. Like what is going on? I had a little red smock and a little red hat on.
00:43:15
Speaker
um It's like an alternate universe. It was. Yeah. So funny. So funny. And he says, what are you doing here? Like that in all seriousness.
00:43:28
Speaker
course. I said, Mark, are you having? Okay. ah So um after he ordered his food, I got a chance to take a break.
00:43:39
Speaker
And you know what? we I met with him, you know, and I said, well, you know, my life has taken a turn. And this and that. I i gave him the gospel. I told him. And I wasn't ashamed to give him the gospel, you know.
00:43:52
Speaker
And, of course, that was a... ah a little bit of a embarrassing prick, pointer on the part of the enemy.
00:44:04
Speaker
Because that point, the enemy was saying, well, look at where Mark's at and look at where you're at, you know, and make your comparison. Where would you want to be, you know?
00:44:16
Speaker
And it was a ah was a trial, you know? Yeah. But the wonderful thing was, you know, I'm just hoping that someday you know Mark got got it and because he was very receptive to the gospel.
00:44:31
Speaker
And who knows, just because he had a three-piece suit and a leather case, what was behind that only himself knows. Reminds me a rich man. and Yeah. ezaru a little bit so That was a funny story that we had there.
00:44:46
Speaker
Yeah. And then what happened was we progressed. The fellowship grew in Manhattan. um We moved around a bit.
00:44:56
Speaker
And at one point in time, um the leadership decided that I was leadership material to move over to Staten Island.
00:45:07
Speaker
So I took my backpack and took the ferry. You left Susan? and I left Susan. I went to Haiti. Yeah. No, it wasn't before Haiti. No, not yet.
00:45:19
Speaker
Yeah. But I went to New York. Excuse me. I went to Staten Island. And um that church exploded. We led many people to Christ. And what happened was a lot of the people there...
00:45:35
Speaker
they really got it. They really took hold of the gospel. We had people moving in left and right and left and right. And within a year and a half, we had over a hundred people every single night coming over to the house.
00:45:52
Speaker
And then we'd all go into little vehicles and make our way to little areas of the island, talking to people. um Either it down at the ferry.
00:46:03
Speaker
um It was at Silver Lake, right? I know all these places. Yeah, yeah. And the gospel was spreading. We had a lot of joy.
00:46:14
Speaker
We loved being together. um The situations that we put ourselves in were hilarious a lot of the time. um And we were bold. So we were really like a family.
00:46:26
Speaker
We loved being together. People had menial jobs so that their real career life was the gospel. real career life excuse me was the gospel h Yeah.
00:46:40
Speaker
And we were apart from the real bad part that was in New York. Remember the whole loft scene? We weren't in that at all. We were a little protected because we were on our own. I came to Staten Island later.
00:46:55
Speaker
Now, were you guys an item at this point or no? We were starting. and off, kind of. Starting. But they were separating you, yeah right? Oh, yeah. But you kissed him in Burger King. Oh, yeah. That's the that's the story. yeah Yeah, we did. we But then yeah then you separated. Well, because you they they didn't want them to be together. No. you could In addition to the fact that they called me into leadership and they said, we need you over here.
00:47:19
Speaker
And um Susan stayed where she was. And so when did you decide that this wasn't working for the two of you? Like you needed to be together and not separate. Yeah, you have two beautiful daughters at some point. Everything changed. Well, um time marched on because we were both there.
00:47:35
Speaker
That was the first two years of me being in the Forever family We changed our name to the Church of Bible Understanding to have more legitimacy because there was a lot of bad press out there with the cults. um The church was spread out all over the United States as as far as the Midwest, Northeast, Florida.
00:48:00
Speaker
um And then what happened was The leader decided that we needed to come together and have a, I guess, an overall education system in the gospel for everybody that was in the church. Yeah. Because he couldn't control what people were doing in Ohio or what people were doing in PA or what people were doing in North Carolina. what they were teaching and what was being said. So uniformity. Exactly right. So he decided that everybody, this is wild, one day he puts out a mandate through phone that everybody should pack their belongings and get in the van and head to New York City and check in when you get there.
00:48:55
Speaker
This is wild. We had nowhere to live when people got on the road. Yeah. It's like ah Abraham. It was always like that. Being cold out of earth. Where are we going? don't know. It's always like that. It was really, yeah really peculiar. Yeah. Really, really peculiar.
00:49:15
Speaker
um And everybody did it. No, no, and no, no folks said, Hey, you know what? This is where I was born and raised. This where family is. This grandma and grandpa is, and I'm happy here. Nope.
00:49:27
Speaker
and Everybody. Yeah. So it was approximately 1500 people from all around the country. Just converging into New York city. just got in there. Where are we sleeping that night? But where we didn't go there.
00:49:40
Speaker
We didn't go there. I didn't go there because I, I wasn't asked to go there just yet. I was close enough. Yeah, Staten Island. Yeah. So, well, these folks landed up in New York City, and at first, the first two nights, they had nowhere to go. So they were sleeping in their vans, and it was the summertime, so they're hanging out outside. And then um the guys, the men who were the most responsible in the group— even though, you know, from a human standpoint, they're major hippies.
00:50:13
Speaker
I mean, these guys have beards down to here and long hair and, you know, um, they started finding industrial lofts that were no longer being used that were empty and renting them.
00:50:31
Speaker
So we had these big open second and third floor lofts, just open areas, one bathroom, maybe a sink and people would pile into them.
00:50:45
Speaker
With their sleeping bags and with their milk crates full of clothing and their Bibles and so forth. to say the least, it's unsanitary. Thank you. really it's it's It should not be. But you didn't go.
00:50:57
Speaker
No, I never was a part of all that. i I was very good at hiding from them. Good. I was very good at that. Well, thank God. I learned how to keep away. I was very, very...
00:51:08
Speaker
Why? Did you recognize how dysfunctional it was? Yes. I didn't like it and I didn't trust it. So I hid in my own way. Okay. And I just did my own. I stayed. um It's funny. I stayed very, very faithful. I was very looked upon as like they only had certain people take care of themselves.
00:51:30
Speaker
the new believers and the Christians, and they always had me because they trusted me. So I always kept that image all the time so that I would stay. They couldn't touch me. So I was like, you know, I'm not, ah they can't, they were like, well, they just didn't manipulate you. Like they manipulated everyone else. I stayed in like little homes, little fellowship homes and,
00:51:55
Speaker
And I kind of nestled there with like, it was all women, like it was a few brothers, but it was all girls. And we just yeah had our own life together. We did everything. We're like in your own little coven, right? Yeah, we did our own. So I learned how to hide. i learned ah learned how to keep away very, very good. It was, you had to protect yourself, we right?
00:52:18
Speaker
We landed. I did. Yeah. We landed five large lofts for 1,500 people. Figure that out. Five large lofts, 300 people per loft.
00:52:29
Speaker
And people were living there, and they would make use of the showers either at the Bowery. Or YMCA. Or at the train station.
00:52:40
Speaker
We became very resourceful. Everybody went out immediately, got menial jobs. They did everything in these lofts and these large buildings. It was, life was difficult.
00:52:53
Speaker
how many years in now are you two at this point? Four. Okay. Four. Yeah. Okay. Yep. And in short order, the city of New York found out and they made, in the middle of the night, every single loft, a major bust.
00:53:11
Speaker
It made the New York Post, you know, cult living illegally in these lofts, blah, blah, blah, blah. And we had a tremendously bad spin. Yeah. um So you got some negative exposure. We got quite a bit of negative exposure. Mm-hmm.
00:53:25
Speaker
And, um you know, what happened was, in short order, we were all going to be on the street. I mean, you had some folks that had children. you didn't live there, right? I didn't live there.
00:53:37
Speaker
No, I was living in Satin Island. um And in short order, they found that the hotel diplomat was undergoing a major renovation and that they would be willing to lease out...
00:53:55
Speaker
the rooms for a cheaper rate that they were working on. Yeah. Wow. So that turned in your favor. Yeah. So the whole group, all 1500 people,
00:54:09
Speaker
moved into the hotel diplomat on 43rd street. Yeah. And that meant that if you were on the fifth floor and they were jackhammering on the sixth floor and taking all the toilets and everything out that you would have to live with that, you know? So it, it was, you did what you had to do. Sounds better than living in a warehouse anyway. So so we're four or five years in where does it go from there for you to,
00:54:37
Speaker
because I know you're there for... back and forth. Like every meeting we would meet. Like we would have these big meetings where all the houses would meet together. So that's when I would see you and we would go out. Remember, we would go out in the car couple times. what What'd you do in that car? They were reading the Bible. You don't want to know what we did in the car. Yes, do. Remember, you had a car.
00:55:03
Speaker
yeah Like no one had a car. I didn't even know how to drive then. Right. Nobody drove. You had buses. You had, you walked in the city. Yeah. You know, we never had a. So you're going over the years, you're meeting each other once in a while. What yeah was the breaking point? yeah Where was the.
00:55:20
Speaker
How did we get out? how did we get out? Yeah, what happened? Lord, we were at a meeting. This was it was quite a bit of years Now you're about, what, nine, ten years into it? Yeah. And it was very, very serious, and it was like the guy, the Bain speaker was like, the name of Stuart Trail, yeah was telling everybody they're going to go to hell.
00:55:40
Speaker
You're all going to hell. So I thought, well, if I'm going to hell, I better get out of here. Yeah. That's what got me out. Thank God. I go. goodness And then remember, I met you in the parking lot and you were pretty distraught. It was that weird meeting.
00:55:55
Speaker
And you said you're leaving too. And then we left. I stayed at your mom's and we got married month later. So you literally said, we're out of here. And that was it. You packed up your few belongings and I had my paycheck and I thought I was going to hell because I never had a check.
00:56:15
Speaker
And I had my paycheck and I'm like, I'm going to be dead because I had all that paycheck. um it Was it a big hundred dollars? And I was like, oh, my gosh, I have this paycheck. What am I going to do? Right.
00:56:28
Speaker
And I was like, so like the guilt, the the guilt that they used to throw on you was so heavy. And then we left, we got married and then God left.
00:56:44
Speaker
just put us with the pastor. And that's when we met Dennis Cahill at a wedding. And then we met you guys. Yeah. And it was like only two weeks. I felt like, where's God? Like, where, where am I? Like, so you guys left, you got married within a month or two.
00:57:03
Speaker
Within a month, John, we did. Because we didn't live together. We didn't. There was one meeting that really broke the camel's back. and Before that meeting, how were you feeling? Were you ah it was were you already sensing something? I already had discontent serious doubts.
00:57:23
Speaker
But I was vested in the organization in a big way. I was running a big construction business that they had, and I had leadership responsibilities. So you were feeling responsible. Yeah.
00:57:38
Speaker
But what would happen is that no matter what you did or how much you did, was never there was always a loophole. You were horrible. yeah It was never... i used to feel like, wouldn't you ever get there?
00:57:51
Speaker
Like with God, when is it ever good enough? When do you like sometimes when you even hear that phrase, your best is yet to come. When is it? Who says that phrase? You know what I mean? Like always like, it's only up from here. Your best is yet to come. Where'd that come from?
00:58:08
Speaker
You were always like catching like ah ah the devil had this carrot all the time and you're going out in this carrot and you're like, you're never getting it. You're never, you're never ever.
00:58:20
Speaker
i don't care what it was. so I felt like we had to learn who Jesus was all over again. Like, I didn't even know who Jesus was. Like, do I? am I mean, we were so, our view of God was so messed up. Well, it was distorted.
00:58:39
Speaker
It was very distorted. It was works-based. And you know what? Amazingly, so many people leave these cults, and that's it. They leave God forever. But you guys decided you weren't going to leave God. You were just going to leave the cult and a right God. That's right. I mean, it's amazing. And when we got married, I felt like I got out of jail.
00:58:56
Speaker
It was like when I was like up at that altar, I was like, wow, we're out of jail now. This is beautiful. like And I've met some, you've introduced us to some of your friends that they didn't make it out. I mean, they made it out, but they didn't so continue to follow Christ. But now before we get to the next part of your life, there's something that just popped into my head for everybody listening. and If you like Seinfeld.
00:59:19
Speaker
And Pastor John had told me there's an episode in Seinfeld that is about the church that you guys were a part of. Because now Pastor John, he owns his own multi-million dollar flooring company, which started at that church. right But they were carpet cleaners.
00:59:38
Speaker
And in this episode, these carpet cleaners are trying to lead George to Jesus. That's true. And you told me, I'm telling you, that is us. And when I watched it, I was like, oh, my God.
00:59:49
Speaker
Yes. That was you guys. Yes. Pretty amazing. Pretty cool. The church had... ah so You got to watch that episode. It's amazing. George almost gets saved. yeah Well, they had we had some very successful, innovative brothers in the church, and they established some very successful businesses.
01:00:11
Speaker
We had the largest independent steam cleaning company in America, and then we had a very large automotive business, It was very unconventional, but we had an orphanage in Haiti, and we underwrote that orphanage with all of the money that we made in the business to the tune of $50,000 to $75,000 per month.
01:00:37
Speaker
um So that was a big nut, and everybody worked faithfully at it, and... Unfortunately, the workers did not deserve their wages. Even though the Bible says the laborer deserves its wages, the workers did not get their wages in the Church of Bible Understanding. Yep.
01:01:00
Speaker
um And unfortunately, the leader became more distant, more affluent, had bigger and better toys, became more distant and more abusive. So therefore, we went down the road of, you know, um a cult with ah an abusive person.
01:01:19
Speaker
head. I can't remember. You guys were about after it, you were out before it really got bad. kind of Yes. Yes. Yeah. yeah you got And so you guys, did you come right to that church where you met us? Is that the first church you went to after that? I went to a wedding two weeks after we left.
01:01:38
Speaker
And I felt like I had this vision. We were in a tunnel. I'll never forget. And I was like, where's Jesus? We're in this tunnel right now in our life.
01:01:49
Speaker
And I went to this wedding and I met Pastor Cahill. And I started telling him because we were fresh out of it. He goes, I'll come over and talk to you. And he goes, I'll come over. I'll come over. You want to? And I said, sure. Remember, I had he came over. It's like there for four hours. I never heard anything like that. He was like and he just kind of ministered to us.
01:02:12
Speaker
He was the first Christian i think we met. And it was like God just took us. It was only like a two week period. Like I never left God. I never, maybe I did in certain ways, but my heart was always like, where are you, Jesus?
01:02:31
Speaker
And that all happened for a reason. And God just put him into our life. And that's when we got in that hole. Like, where do you go next? I don't know.
01:02:41
Speaker
you know, right. And we met, we became close, close friends. And that's 30 something years. 36. 36 years ago. And we had a daughter. You guys had a daughter. And Pastor John and Susan have two beautiful daughters and now two beautiful granddaughters.
01:03:00
Speaker
And we grew up together, our kids grew up together. You were doing worship, teaching, I was an usher, you know I was learning from you, everything about God, you because you had such a knowledge of the Bible. well We were all just like... When we met you, we had just gotten saved. yeah We had been saved maybe a year. We went to a church or two, but nothing really stuck. We went to our own cult church. yeah we We went to ah a cult of our Bible. We didn't even know. yeah So we're in Christ community. We we made 10,000 phone calls, remember, for the first service. And there was a couple hundred people there. The first service, you were doing the worship. I was ushering, and you guys were friends. And then over the years, we had home groups, and we invited people, and we fellowshiped, and we helped that church.
01:03:49
Speaker
Go from like 8 to 10 people to close to 400 people. m And ah so can you tell us a little bit about your experience there and and ministry after coming from where you had come from? Because now you're going into like a different kind of ministry, you know?
01:04:04
Speaker
It was like we were so used to working hard that it was very easy to do. Like, you know, Dick Roman gives me all the children's stuff. Here you go. You're going to run the children's church. All right.
01:04:19
Speaker
You know what I mean? It was like you never think. Yeah. We were so taught. We worked so hard. yeah We were brought up that way as Christians. And, you know, it can work against you in a lot of ways, but...
01:04:33
Speaker
We had very hard working ethics. You know, we had little kids and it was like, so what? Like we did everything. We were like, we were just kind of, I guess we were trying to figure out how to live as two people too.
01:04:48
Speaker
We had to learn how to live like as a couple. And we had a we had to learn how to live life. We were, you know, we were in that cold for so long. We never sat at a table and ate and we never did stuff. Normal things. Yes. Normal functioning families do.
01:05:08
Speaker
So it was a blessing for us. And Pastor John, you had a business. yep yeah I know because I worked for you a few times i was out of work. He employed like half the it was yeah well You started a business.
01:05:26
Speaker
The large majority of people that were in the Church of Bible Understanding were independents because you of the lifestyle that we lived. It was difficult to hold down ah not only a normal job, but let's say a job that you that had some real responsibilities, you know, in a worldly sense, you know, um because at five o'clock you would be finishing dinner and get ready to go to witness on the street yeah and you you would not be at your desk or your computer, um you know, with the next quarters portfolios. So, yeah.
01:06:03
Speaker
What was nice was that we now are experiencing some normalcy in life. We were married. where We had a baby. We had a daughter. And, you know, we had finally got a release in our lives because our human life in the Church of Bible Understanding was always oppressed, always held down. Controlled. Yeah. controlled Our human lives. was Yeah.
01:06:33
Speaker
And our social lives. um it really couldn't be trusted because what happened was it was unfortunately easy for people to be disingenuine with each other or turn on each other if something went on in the church that um some new mandate came down from the leader and certain people didn't, you know, make the grade. All of a sudden, people would act disingenuine and rat people out and say, oh, yeah, yeah's horrible they're not they're not faithful. They're not doing this or they're not doing that. So it it definitely wasn't a model of how Jesus wants his people to be.
01:07:15
Speaker
And We were experiencing real relief in our lives, right? and Yeah, it was nice to be able to visit my father, and yeah I had to ask him for forgiveness. And, you know, we were kept from our families for so long, and we had to restart...
01:07:32
Speaker
everything kind of later in life but I was so thankful to have I just wanted to have a baby so bad I just wanted to have kids and I was like I am so thankful that we you know that just was like the world to me like thank you God I'm I'm happy you know that's all your reward after endorsing all I want you know to have a family like To love to have a family and to love them. And, you know, God saw our our pain, but put us together.
01:08:03
Speaker
Now he has blessed us more than. I can't even imagine. i think that respective meeting that we were at and decided to break out, it opened the door to a lot of couples because at our wedding, um there was 50 people from the Church your Bible Understanding who left.
01:08:25
Speaker
And in short order, everyone yeah god was falling in love and getting married. And we went to many weddings. And we're part of many wedding parties and you know joyful occasions. braved the way, right? I mean, you just yeah set a new standard. Yeah. And everybody got got the memo at once.
01:08:44
Speaker
Now was the time to leave, you know? Yeah. But... Like you think, why did God allow that all to happen? But for some reason, he put us together. well That's all I can say, right? Yeah, it was like there was definitely wonderful and really good things there. There's no doubt about it.
01:09:04
Speaker
Not only the fact that we knew Jesus in the most personal way and were able to present the gospel, lead people to Christ, disciple them correctly, and find these other people to do it with.
01:09:16
Speaker
That was beautiful. We have wonderful lifelong friendships. And the travesty is that, you know, a lot of people lost their faith after they left. I know people that committed suicide as a result because they just believed they couldn't make it with Jesus because they had left the group. Well, and remember, they're thinking they're going to hell because he said, you're going to hell. So if you believe that. And you couldn't, you had to look at the floor the whole time he was talking because you dare not look up or go like this because he would be looking at you. So you had to look at the floor the whole time.
01:09:59
Speaker
Our heads were always down like this. You know, he ruled by fear. He ruled by fear. It was horrible. It was like A ah like the a harsh right? Oh, it was just... just And, that you know, sometimes his family will go, I can understand why you were in it, but I don't understand how he was in it. That's what they say to me.
01:10:19
Speaker
And I go, you know what? Just watch the Jesus... Revolution movie. That'll help clear it all up. I'll give you clarity. And there's been so many amazing ministries that sprung from that. That's why I, like, I, you guys are in it just to make my life because the stories that you've told me over the years have been amazing. survived a cult. Think about Plus, the knowledge you had of the word.
01:10:43
Speaker
Well, the discerning spirit. You had the knowledge of the word. All the spirits we had to discern. I mean, we would have men's Bible studies. You would lead them and you would be saying saying stuff. And I'm like, oh my gosh, like I learned so much up from the Bible from you. And then we became, we became like family, like our families are like family. We grew together and we helped that other church. And then we come up to Grace Church. Yes. and the first day when we started, now you guys had started going to another church.
01:11:13
Speaker
We started Grace Church, but you came the first week, of course, for me, because you, We're brothers. Yeah. and And you led the worship and everything. And we led like 10 people to Christ. Yep. And then, but you guys still had a commitment. And that's how we all, everybody at this table, when we make a commitment, we stay with the commitment.
01:11:30
Speaker
True. I kind of knew at some point you would come with us because, you know. Oh, yeah. We're family. But you finished your commitment out of the church. And then you came to Grace Church. And and how was that transition?
01:11:42
Speaker
amazing was good i felt so like at peace like it was like meant to be like it was god's plan like the best thing that we did and then and then what do we do we hand you the children's curriculum No, here's the thing. I'm used to it. We have been, since we first met, still do we have been like family, right? Absolutely. Since we first met, we've all been like family. And that has never changed. And our kids are all intertwined and love each other. Here's the forever family. So this is...
01:12:16
Speaker
It didn't matter what church we were going to, you know, even though we've mostly been together. There was only a couple years, but it was all God's plan. And then you came into into Grace Church and you started using your gift. And eventually you became a pastor and you've been teaching from day one. And you started our preschool.
01:12:35
Speaker
Started. like Like pioneered it. Like, and it's such an amazing thing. I mean, think about that. You you started the school because you had a heart for kids.
01:12:49
Speaker
Right. And you still do that. You still work with kids. I still do. I still do, and I do it in a different way now. God has given me a different... I help people more.
01:13:01
Speaker
I'm more different working with people in there and in how to how to take care of children. And um it's amazing. God opened up so many doors for me. but And we're so blessed. And I just thank God that we we stayed family through thick and thin.
01:13:20
Speaker
You know what I mean? Yes. yeah It isn't just all roses. No, no. When it was thick, it was very thick. It it goes through some thick and... It does, you know? like you all have. I mean, and that's the...
01:13:33
Speaker
beautiful thing about our fellowship is that we have grace and love. Yes. That we work through stuff together. Cause without that, we wouldn't be here.
01:13:45
Speaker
I don't think I would. There's no way you could be friends for 36 years and not go through stuff. That's just the reality of it. We we've learned what it means to be by somebody's side.
01:13:57
Speaker
when they need you, right? We we know what that means. You guys are two of the most faithful people who have ever lived. i mean, let's just face it. He's just faithful. It just oozes out of you. You're faithful to the Lord. I mean, if anything came out of that, you learned to be faithful no matter what. If you can be on the Bowery... For Jesus?
01:14:16
Speaker
Alphabet city? is there any Is there anything you can't do? Is there anything you can't do if you can do that? it yeah Yeah, it's been his plan. and Yeah. um but now he and And Pastor John, you have become the, not only do you preach and teach, but you have become the person that helps everybody with conflict at our church. Oh, yeah. You're Mr. Conflict Resolution. You are the conflict pastor. Yeah.
01:14:41
Speaker
I don't know if that's a great title. I know it's not, but why is it that? And we all know you can preach and teach. That's goes without saying that you love people, but yeah why is it that you're so good with the conflict? What is it that you're able to? Because he endured conflict. Probably.
Abraham's Miraculous Journey
01:14:58
Speaker
I don't know.
01:14:59
Speaker
And Susan as well. You're part of that. Yeah. Probably because I help you in that area a lot. You don't know who's behind him. Yes, we know. know who's turning the neck. I'm helping him in that. but the two of you are able to love people that are unlovable. i mean, you literally, a man who was at a gas station. Mm-hmm.
01:15:20
Speaker
You took him into your home. Abraham. He got saved and his life is totally turned around. Tell us a little bit about that story because that's an amazing story. That's her baby. Yeah, I met him at the gas station and I was witnessing to him.
01:15:37
Speaker
And um then I said, you go to church. And he goes, I'm from Nigeria. And, um you know, I would like to. I'm new here. i live over here. His house was across from the gas station.
01:15:52
Speaker
Big rental. And so I said, I think we could pick you up. So we picked him up. That's correct. And um he started coming to Grace Church. He wasn't married.
01:16:03
Speaker
He only had one boy who was in Nigeria at the time from Gold. They weren't married yet, but he his goal was to get his degree.
01:16:14
Speaker
And remember, I had to help him with his license. Oh, my gosh. That was in the parking lot here. we I would just show him how to... You know, he didn't know how to drive. You were teaching drive? helped him in the parking lot here. Yes. That's a miracle. yeah That is a miracle. It's a miraculous. And then um one day he calls us up. It was a storm.
01:16:35
Speaker
was storming weather. And I was working in the preschool. And he goes, my house is on fire. I don't have anything. And it was snowing. Remember? Yeah. It was a nasty evening. I called you. I go, Abram. About 9 p.m. Yeah, has nothing. We got to help him.
01:16:52
Speaker
So we brought him over. Yeah, we got. We got him some clothes. And he slept on your couch, Yeah, he was very respectful, very respectful. um He would not even, like, leave the couch. He'd be like, can I go over here? I was like, yeah, yeah.
01:17:07
Speaker
And um then he was taking he was doing his degree and i would leave here on my lunch hour and take him places.
01:17:18
Speaker
I can't believe I did that. When I look back, I would like do it in an hour. And then he would start getting better and better in his business. He rented a little room near us.
01:17:30
Speaker
Everybody from the church chipped in and got him a bed, a fridge. And he just started doing really good in God. Like he was really. Well, he was faithful to come to church. He was faithful. And one Sunday. You were like, look at him. You said to me, look. I'm like, he's his wife, his kids. He's got a beautiful wife. Three boys. He's got a home now. Yeah, he's married. Very successful job. Miraculous. He has new teeth. Remember, he had no teeth. Yeah. He's like, and we see him in church and we have such a bond of love.
01:18:04
Speaker
And I said, you could have been a movie. You could have had a movie about your life here. And everything burned except his birth. The money under his mattress, right? He said, Pastor John, he goes, I'm so sad. He goes,
01:18:19
Speaker
I had all my money, all the money that I saved under my mattress. He goes, and they won't let me in the room yet. I go, is everything destroyed? Is that everything burned? He goes, I don't know.
01:18:33
Speaker
He goes, I need two things, my laptop, Yeah. Right. Yes. My laptop and my money my and my money. i go, well, we got to pray that they let you in there and that everything is intact, that God protected it.
01:18:48
Speaker
So in short order, what happened was fire department finally were because it was a tenement house. So there was other ten. They went in when they needed to. Everybody else was everything was lost.
01:18:59
Speaker
Everything was lost. Mm hmm. In his little corner of this one room was his $5,000 under the mattress and the laptop. It was intact.
01:19:11
Speaker
It's wild. He was giving God glory. In his passport or something. I don't know about the passport. Something where he was like. Maybe. Well, probably because you can't get anything without it. Yeah. Yeah.
01:19:22
Speaker
Wow. So when I see him, I go, wow. And he has three beautiful theyre boys are getting so big. I'm like, this this is just beautiful. Yeah. Thank you, God. i know what I mean? Yeah.
Wisdom and Encouragement in Faith Community
01:19:33
Speaker
That's just a, you know wonderful story. All right, since we're probably about to finish here, why don't each of you give us a little, give whoever's listening a little bit of wisdom that you would think that someone would need. Maybe they're a young Christian that's struggling.
01:19:48
Speaker
Maybe they've been a Christian for a while, but so just how did you get through all the stuff that you went through? i mean, you've both been through a lot. Mm-hmm. um And I know that personally, just watching your lives, that you know <unk> you've been able to stay faithful somehow through everything, ups, downs, everything.
01:20:08
Speaker
What do you think some of the keys are for young believers or believers that are just struggling right now? Is there anything that you could, I know there is something you can say to help them.
01:20:20
Speaker
Well, first and foremost is always rely on Jesus. he's He's always there. No matter what state your emotions is are in, what no matter what state your mind is in, you know always lean in on him and really value church.
01:20:37
Speaker
I want to tell you because... The church that we started out with, and the with those brothers and sisters, they were our support group. And um it's so critical that um we be united as believers to help one another and not stray from that model.
01:20:58
Speaker
There's so many people that could be so much further in life, humanly, physically, spiritually, emotionally, socially, financially, if they would just remain with the model of of God's family.
01:21:15
Speaker
you know just We've always always associated with brothers and sisters. i mean you know and they Once you start giving yourself a reason to pulling back from association with other believers um and the calling that's on your life,
01:21:37
Speaker
then nothing good comes of it because it's it's God's plan, you know, and that is what has helped us get through. And many of our friends, and that's why we are with Pastor Joe and Alicia in Grace Church, and we have such a strong church is because of the relationships that we have, first with him and then with each other.
01:22:00
Speaker
Yeah. when and you have a And you have a heart for people that come to Christ. You want to see them get planted. That is your heart. That's the big hope. hu i I think the most important thing is knowing that.
01:22:15
Speaker
no matter where you're at or who you are, that Jesus sees everything, that he he knows every detail and he'll get you through.
01:22:28
Speaker
he will He is your rock. He is my rock. He was my rock in that car with that rapist. He was my rock in that cult. He is our rock in our marriage. He is...
01:22:44
Speaker
everything. And I think learning who you are and your identity and what he wants of you, just focus on that. And he'll bring about all the other things, you know, he'll bring, he'll bring the people in your life. He'll surround you.
01:23:02
Speaker
You know, it's like what you say, Pastor Joe, if you don't build God's house, he won't build your house. It's like your relationship with him just, and don't be ashamed.
01:23:14
Speaker
Don't stay in shame. Don't stay in guilt. It's okay. God will meet you in every detail. And, you know, i still get ashamed of my life. I was like today talking to these two women on my lunch break.
01:23:30
Speaker
And i was like, they were just asking me all these questions about me and things. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, to start telling them about how I got saved.
01:23:41
Speaker
And I'm like, please, God, help me not to be ashamed of of who I am, of you've made me who I am and just embrace who you are. And Jesus is with you every step of the way.
01:23:54
Speaker
m Right? Every step of the way. oh That's some powerful stuff, everybody. if we could all just listen to that and take that in and be a part of that, boy, our lives would be on the upgrade all the time. And it is only up from here. That's right. it is Thank you, Lord. We love you, everybody. and get some more this on the upgrade. God bless you. God God bless. See you soon.